Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:35 AM - Re: Re: Bungee replacement (Michel Verheughe)
2. 01:28 AM - Re: Re: KFGeorgia Members (debrun26@juno.com)
3. 04:21 AM - Toe-in, was Bungee replacement (fox5flyer)
4. 05:18 AM - Autogas - color (LarryM)
5. 05:24 AM - Re: Kitfox Georgia Members (W Duke)
6. 05:34 AM - Re: Re: KFGeorgia Members (John W. Hart)
7. 05:40 AM - Re: Autogas - color (dave)
8. 05:43 AM - Re: KFGeorgia Members (dave)
9. 06:38 AM - Re: Re: Autogas - color (Mike Chaney)
10. 07:46 AM - Re: Autogas - color (dave)
11. 07:55 AM - (terry)
12. 08:03 AM - Re: Autogas - color (LarryM)
13. 08:52 AM - Re: Re: Bungee replacement (Marco Menezes)
14. 09:41 AM - Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement (Clint Bazzill)
15. 11:19 AM - Re: Autogas - color (dave)
16. 11:32 AM - Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement (dave)
17. 12:10 PM - Re: Kitfox Georgia Members (debrun26@juno.com)
18. 12:11 PM - Shock cords -- FWIW (triv) (fox5flyer)
19. 12:42 PM - Re: Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement (JC Propeller Design)
20. 12:43 PM - Re: Shock cords -- FWIW (triv) (dave)
21. 12:44 PM - Re: Shock cords -- FWIW (triv) (dave)
22. 12:46 PM - News years eve pipc (dave)
23. 12:49 PM - Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement (dave)
24. 01:51 PM - Shock cords -- FWIW (triv) (fox5flyer)
25. 02:02 PM - Re: Autogas - color (Roger Standley)
26. 02:02 PM - Toe-in, was Bungee replacement (fox5flyer)
27. 02:58 PM - Re: Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement (Lowell Fitt)
28. 03:34 PM - Model 4 1050/1200 difference (Tom Jones)
29. 03:37 PM - Kitfox training (Pete Christensen)
30. 03:46 PM - Re: Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement (JC Propeller Design)
31. 04:31 PM - Re: Kitfox training (John Alexander)
32. 05:26 PM - Re: Re: Autogas - color (bjones@dmv.com)
33. 05:38 PM - Re: (Sbennett3@AOL.COM)
34. 05:38 PM - Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement (steve eccles)
35. 05:40 PM - Re: Kitfox training (Roger McConnell)
36. 05:40 PM - Rudder trim (John Alexander)
37. 05:53 PM - Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement (steve eccles)
38. 06:11 PM - Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement (steve eccles)
39. 06:25 PM - Re: Kitfox training (Michael Gibbs)
40. 06:25 PM - Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement (84KF)
41. 07:04 PM - Re: News years eve pipc (Steve Shinabery)
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| Subject: | Re: Bungee replacement |
On Dec 30, 2007, at 11:19 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote:
> At 07:13 AM 12/30/2007, you wrote:
>> I found out yesterday that I have some gear misalignment. As I push
>> the aircraft into the hanger the gear droops about 1 1/2 inch from
>> the stops and as I go forward about 15 ft it tightens up against the
>> stops.
>
> Be careful with this. If you have any camber, as I do, there will
> always be "apparent" toe in when in a three point attitude.
I can't say if I have a camber because I never tried to measure it.
Nothing is apparent visually, though. I do have a slight toe-in, which
I realised when I installed my wheel penetration skis. When I push the
plane in the hangar, the gear also droops but once in place, I lift one
wing and the gears get together again and the bungees are tight.
Incidentally, here is a photo of how I made a tourniquet to keep the
gears together when I replaced the bungees. My son is under and I am
with my head inside the plane.
See you next year! :-)
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
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| Subject: | Re: KFGeorgia Members |
I think I was misconstrued... I was wondering if there was someone in Ge
orgia that would feel comfortable giving me the lesson in their own plan
e where they would be PIC. If they wouldn't feel comfortable doing this
... where they would take over if needed before I ground loop their prid
e and joy... then I wouldn't feel comfortable either!!! I wasn't lookin
g to borrow a plane for instruction w/o the owner being the instructor a
nd PIC. Layne
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Toe-in, was Bungee replacement |
Steve, with all due respect, this is incorrect and this type of setup will
cause bent airplanes. It might be good for cars, but not airplanes.
Picture yourself with a small crosswind that causes you to veer slightly to
the right. The inside wheel is already turned left which will exacerbate
the turn. The more toe-in the more squirrely the airplane will be. If,
when level, the airplane has toe-in it will have more in the three point
attitude which partly why people lose control as they start to let the tail
down from the two point attitude. Add to this the loss of airflow over the
rudder and you have a ground loop.
The best is slightly toe-out when in level attitude. This will put the
wheels in a neutral attitude when in three point. Of course, there are lots
of airplanes out there with a little toe-in and some with more than a
little, and they are flyable, but are more difficult to keep straight when
in three point, especially when a swerve starts.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT
"Nothing will ever be attempted, if all possible objections must first be
overcome".- Samuel Johnson
>
> Gary
> I think that the toe out situation is far worse than the toe in .Just my
> .02
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan
> Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 4:20 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Bungee replacement
>
>
> At 07:13 AM 12/30/2007, you wrote:
>>I found out yesterday that I have some gear misalignment. As I push
>>the aircraft into the hanger the gear droops about 1 1/2 inch from
>>the stops and as I go forward about 15 ft it tightens up against the
>>stops.
>
> Be careful with this. If you have any camber, as I do, there will
> always be "apparent" toe in when in a three point attitude. (Camber
> is when the bottoms of the tires are closer together than the tops.)
> If you picture rotating the aircraft so it points straight up and
> then setting the tires on a table, you'll see the maximum extreme of
> the toe in associated with camber. Even though it's much less in a
> three point it's still there. (Toe-in due to camber will
> theoretically be zero when the fuselage is horizontal.)
>
> My plane has a bunch of camber resulting in about 2.5 degrees of
> toe-in in a three point attitude and about 1 1/4 degrees when the
> fuselage is horizontal. I have no problem with this configuration
> other than that I have to replace my tires after 200 hours and ?
> landings. I think the reason for my camber and toe-in is that when
> the plane hits hard and the camber goes negative then the toe-in will
> go to zero. Just a theory. (The original builder built beefy new tube
> gear with more camber and a little toe-in.)
>
> You'll see many toe-in arguments in the archives. I personally
> believe toe-out is theoretically better, but as you can see I've been
> flying with toed-in tube gear and have had virtually no problems in a
> wide variety of conditions: high speed, low speed, wheelies,
> three-point, crosswind, pavement, dirt, and mud. Go figure.
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> San Diego, CA
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>
>
>
Message 4
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I bought some autogas today at a good price ( for the area) knowing the pump said
it had ethanol, but was going to put it in the car latter. I decided to check
to see if it did have ethanol in it, as not all stations have it, even though
the pump says so. Turns out it indeed has ethanol in it, but what I wasn't
prepared for was that the gas was clear. Not even the slightest shade of yellow!
I've never seen this before and wonder just what I bought. I thought I'd ask
the list, as you guys have much more experience than I. Have you seen "non yellow"
auto gas?
Happy New Year!
larry
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155146#155146
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Georgia Members |
I would have been happy to in Dublin, GA but I will be out of town that weekend.
Can you move President's day? do not archive
Maxwell
"debrun26@juno.com" <debrun26@juno.com> wrote:
Are there any KF members around Warner Robins, Georgia that would like to give
me a lesson in their plane on presidents weekend Jan 19-21, while my wife
is running a marathon? We'll be coming from Alaska where I'm learning to fly
my KF Series 5 when I can pin my CFI down for instruction, which isn't often.
My wife Debbie runs marathons around the country when she can and when I can
get away with her I try to do something for me too.If there's anyone in the area
who would like to help me out please e-mail back.
Thanks, Layne Cropper ph: 907-569-2767 DO NOT ARCHIVE
_____________________________________________________________
Choose from a huge assortment of fun screensavers. Click here!
Maxwell Duke
S6/TD/IO240
Dublin, GA
---------------------------------
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| Subject: | Re: KFGeorgia Members |
The time flown under the conditions you describe cannot be counted toward
time needed to qualify for a pilot certificate, unless the owner also
happens to be a CFI. In other words, it is passenger time, you being the
passenger. It certainly would give you experience in handling the controls.
John Hart
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
debrun26@juno.com
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 3:25 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: KFGeorgia Members
I think I was misconstrued... I was wondering if there was someone in
Georgia that would feel comfortable giving me the lesson in their own plane
where they would be PIC. If they wouldn't feel comfortable doing this...
where they would take over if needed before I ground loop their pride and
joy... then I wouldn't feel comfortable either!!! I wasn't looking to
borrow a plane for instruction w/o the owner being the instructor and PIC.
Layne
_____________________________________________________________
Take care of your pets with quality veterinary supplies. Click
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Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Autogas - color |
Larry,
The gas I buy seems to be for the most part clear or close to it.
It seems to turn more yellow after it sits for a few weeks though.
I believe it has ethanol in it but I have never checked. I have flown my Kitfox
with 582 380 hours since this new engine in June 2006 and never had any isssues
yet. Engine never been apart either.
I keep hearing all this ethanol propaganda about how this and that but I had had
no issues YET !! . I will say that ethanol gas gives you less power per gallon
that gas with out it, but our greenwashing government says it good but you
will use more under same power settings.
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155150#155150
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| Subject: | Re: KFGeorgia Members |
You want Kitfox time ?
Come to Ontario, I will be happy to take you flying.
Bring your winter woolies !!
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155151#155151
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Autogas - color |
Dave
I may be wrong but I thought the ethanol issue was with the Kitfox fuel tank
coatings (Kreem) and not with the Rotax 582. My information is based on previous
list discussions concerning this issue.
If my understanding is correct then I am interested in the type of tanks you
have. If you do have the Kreem coatings have you experienced any problems?
Mike Chaney
1996 Kitfox IV
Previously 582 now Jabiru 2200
dave <dave@cfisher.com> wrote:
Larry,
The gas I buy seems to be for the most part clear or close to it.
It seems to turn more yellow after it sits for a few weeks though.
I believe it has ethanol in it but I have never checked. I have flown my Kitfox
with 582 380 hours since this new engine in June 2006 and never had any isssues
yet. Engine never been apart either.
I keep hearing all this ethanol propaganda about how this and that but I had had
no issues YET !! . I will say that ethanol gas gives you less power per gallon
that gas with out it, but our greenwashing government says it good but you
will use more under same power settings.
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155150#155150
---------------------------------
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Autogas - color |
I don't think i have Kreem in mine as they look like just fiberglass.
I think KREEM might be the culprit in the tanks that have issues but I am not sure.
If mine leak I will buy these http://wingtanks.com/ drop them in and fly.
I think the resin used in the wingtanks i have seesm to be ok so far any how.
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155175#155175
Message 11
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I'm curious about the difference between the KF 4 1050 & 1200.
Can the 1050 be converted to a 1200 and if so what would it in tail.
First timer on the list.
C_FPXX Terry Z Canada
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Autogas - color |
Thanks Dave,
I agree the Rotax doesn't care, but my tanks do. I don't want to replace them,
and "real gas" is still available here, so I'll use it until it is no longer
available. All the gas that I have bought for the car, etc before was always
not seen by me, or what I did see - was yellow as the "real gas" is. It surprised
me by the lack of color.
Happy New Year
larry
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155177#155177
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| Subject: | Re: Bungee replacement |
Thanks for the pic, Michel. Others who have solved the bungee replacement issue
would really help the rest of us by posting videos of your procedures. Written
instructions are helpful but, as they say, "one picture . . . . ."
Happy new year!
do not archive
Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no> wrote:
On Dec 30, 2007, at 11:19 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote:
> At 07:13 AM 12/30/2007, you wrote:
>> I found out yesterday that I have some gear misalignment. As I push
>> the aircraft into the hanger the gear droops about 1 1/2 inch from
>> the stops and as I go forward about 15 ft it tightens up against the
>> stops.
>
> Be careful with this. If you have any camber, as I do, there will
> always be "apparent" toe in when in a three point attitude.
I can't say if I have a camber because I never tried to measure it.
Nothing is apparent visually, though. I do have a slight toe-in, which
I realised when I installed my wheel penetration skis. When I push the
plane in the hangar, the gear also droops but once in place, I lift one
wing and the gears get together again and the bungees are tight.
Incidentally, here is a photo of how I made a tourniquet to keep the
gears together when I replaced the bungees. My son is under and I am
with my head inside the plane.
See you next year! :-)
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
Marco Menezes
Model 2 582 N99KX
---------------------------------
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| Subject: | Toe-in, was Bungee replacement |
I might as well join in this toe-in toe-out food fight. My personnel feeli
ngs someone needs and excuse for not being able to hold their aircraft stai
ght down the runway. The wheels are only a few inches from the CG and the
tailwheel and rudder are many many feet back. The little effect that you h
ave from the toe-in toe-out I am sure would take a superman pilot to tell.
Its like driving a car backwards at 40-50 MPH and saying that the wheel al
ignment is off because its hard to hold straight. Clint> From: fox5flyer@i
dealwifi.net> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com> Subject: Kitfox-List: Toe-in,
was Bungee replacement> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 07:19:51 -0500> > --> Kitfox
-List message posted by: "fox5flyer" <fox5flyer@idealwifi.net>> > Steve, wi
th all due respect, this is incorrect and this type of setup will > cause b
ent airplanes. It might be good for cars, but not airplanes. > Picture your
self with a small crosswind that causes you to veer slightly to > the right
. The inside wheel is already turned left which will exacerbate > the turn.
The more toe-in the more squirrely the airplane will be. If, > when level,
the airplane has toe-in it will have more in the three point > attitude wh
ich partly why people lose control as they start to let the tail > down fro
m the two point attitude. Add to this the loss of airflow over the > rudder
and you have a ground loop.> The best is slightly toe-out when in level at
titude. This will put the > wheels in a neutral attitude when in three poin
t. Of course, there are lots > of airplanes out there with a little toe-in
and some with more than a > little, and they are flyable, but are more diff
icult to keep straight when > in three point, especially when a swerve star
ts.> Deke Morisse> Mikado Michigan> S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT> "Nothing will ev
er be attempted, if all possible objections must first be > overcome".- Sam
uel Johnson> > >> > Gary> > I think that the toe out situation is far worse
than the toe in .Just my > > .02> > Steve> >> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com> > [mailto:owner-kitfox-li
st-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan> > Sent: Sunday, Decembe
r 30, 2007 4:20 PM> > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com> > Subject: Re: Kitfox-
uchanan <bnn@nethere.com>> >> > At 07:13 AM 12/30/2007, you wrote:> >>I fou
nd out yesterday that I have some gear misalignment. As I push> >>the aircr
aft into the hanger the gear droops about 1 1/2 inch from> >>the stops and
as I go forward about 15 ft it tightens up against the > >>stops.> >> > Be
careful with this. If you have any camber, as I do, there will> > always be
"apparent" toe in when in a three point attitude. (Camber> > is when the b
ottoms of the tires are closer together than the tops.)> > If you picture r
otating the aircraft so it points straight up and> > then setting the tires
on a table, you'll see the maximum extreme of> > the toe in associated wit
h camber. Even though it's much less in a> > three point it's still there.
(Toe-in due to camber will> > theoretically be zero when the fuselage is ho
rizontal.)> >> > My plane has a bunch of camber resulting in about 2.5 degr
ees of> > toe-in in a three point attitude and about 1 1/4 degrees when the
> > fuselage is horizontal. I have no problem with this configuration> > ot
her than that I have to replace my tires after 200 hours and ?> > landings.
I think the reason for my camber and toe-in is that when> > the plane hits
hard and the camber goes negative then the toe-in will> > go to zero. Just
a theory. (The original builder built beefy new tube> > gear with more cam
ber and a little toe-in.)> >> > You'll see many toe-in arguments in the arc
hives. I personally> > believe toe-out is theoretically better, but as you
can see I've been> > flying with toed-in tube gear and have had virtually n
o problems in a> > wide variety of conditions: high speed, low speed, wheel
ies,> > three-point, crosswind, pavement, dirt, and mud. Go figure.> >> >>
> Guy Buchanan> > San Diego, CA> > K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, th
========================> _
======================> > >
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Autogas - color |
No problem Larry,
I would like to see some evidence of why not to use ethanol gas before i try to
agree with it.
Trust me I hate getting anything rammed down my throat by a beuacrat, BUT I have
no issues with ethanol gas yet and I use thousands of gallons of it this year
in many application from different 2 strokes to industrial 4 strokes to older
and newer 4 stroke engines,4 bangers, v6 , v 8 and in-line 6 engines. Never
had any issues yet.
Certainly I am not worried about it from in-line.
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155215#155215
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement |
> My personnel feelings someone needs and excuse for not being able to hold their
aircraft staight down the runway.
Clint GREAT ANSWER !! I mentioned the same thing on this the other day on Grove hear > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=37513
Grove gear looks good but VERY expensive and extra weight over the bungee. A personal
choice aesthetically , but No substitute to taildragger training
And for the record, my bungees are only wrapped 5 turns rather than 6 and sloppy
and old ....... They are about 1 " from the stops empty. I have taken 6 guys
in the last few days flying all over 200 lbs and I weigh 210 lbs as well.
I am not sure what all the fuss is about.
Also, if you are measuring toe in or out-- HOW MUCH IS A DEGREE ?
I would measure toe only one way......... by the differance in distance between
the front and rear of the tires ........ you can measure sidewalls but the
BEST WAY is to scribe a line in the tire as it is spun to get the actual centerline.
You could use chalk or paint to scribe it --not the ACTUAL TIRE DUH !!
:)
PS Clint -- did i miss the VG report that you did ?
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155216#155216
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Georgia Members |
Hi Maxwell, I guess it is Martin Luther weekend in Jan. The marathon i
s Jan. 19th so I cannot change and we have tickets etc~ Thanks for bein
g willing and Please look me up if you get to Anchorage and I will do th
e same when I get back to that area....my wife it trying to run a marath
on in every state and needs quite a few more. Layne from Anchorage
_____________________________________________________________
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Message 18
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| Subject: | Shock cords -- FWIW (triv) |
My model II/582 had bungee gear and I never understood what all the fuss
was about. It landed straight and I changed out two sets of shock cords
over 4 years (3 counting orig), spending perhaps a couple hours on each
set (I made my own). I put just under 400 hours on it and I was always
amazed at how resilient the system was. Never had a problem. I now
have a S5 and with nearly 400 hours on spring gear which is also nice,
but it came with the package so I was kinda stuck with it. I do
remember that during building I weighed the entire spring gear assembly
with wheels and tires and it came to about 75 lbs. I don't know how
that compares with the bungee gear, but it sure seemed heavy. Then
again, it has held up quite well on my farm strip.
For all you bungee gear users, here's what Dan Denny had to say about
shock cords.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT
"Nothing will ever be attempted, if all possible objections must first
be overcome".- Samuel Johnson
"SUBJECT: Shock Cords
FROM: Denney Aerocraft Company
Dear KitfoxT Builders,
Over the course of the past several months, good quality shock cord has
been
increasingly difficult to obtain. The shock cords (LSC-19) included in
your
landing gear kit may be fabricated of one of three different types of
bungee
material.
Some of this material is of smaller diameter than the original stock.
You
may have to take more wraps than indicated by the instructions, Step
(22)
and Figure LGH-6.
The original material is .41" diameter and color coded with two rows of
black threads and one of red. Install it according to the manual (six
wraps).
The smaller cord is about .33" diameter and marked with 3 rows of green
threads. You will have to take about eight wraps. It seems to be good
quality bungee material and should work just as well as the original.
For a time we sent bungee material that has proven to be of inferior
quality. It is about 7/16" (.41") diameter and marked by paired bands of
red
and green. These shock cords do not last at all. Return them to the
factory
and we will be happy to replace them with the better - quality cords as
soon
as possible.
Happy building
Dan Denney
rexjan@bigpond.com
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement |
Dave and all.
one degree is 1,7455 at a distance of 100, inch, meter or bananas work the
same.
Earlier today I was reading about the Silent single seater , they said zero
or one half degree. OUT with plane in level position.
Jan
----- Original Message -----
From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 8:32 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement
>
>
>> My personnel feelings someone needs and excuse for not being able to hold
>> their aircraft staight down the runway.
>
>
> Clint GREAT ANSWER !! I mentioned the same thing on this the other day
> on Grove hear > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=37513
> Grove gear looks good but VERY expensive and extra weight over the bungee.
> A personal choice aesthetically , but No substitute to taildragger
> training
>
> And for the record, my bungees are only wrapped 5 turns rather than 6 and
> sloppy and old ....... They are about 1 " from the stops empty. I have
> taken 6 guys in the last few days flying all over 200 lbs and I weigh 210
> lbs as well. I am not sure what all the fuss is about.
>
> Also, if you are measuring toe in or out-- HOW MUCH IS A DEGREE ?
> I would measure toe only one way......... by the differance in distance
> between the front and rear of the tires ........ you can measure
> sidewalls but the BEST WAY is to scribe a line in the tire as it is spun
> to get the actual centerline. You could use chalk or paint to scribe
> it --not the ACTUAL TIRE DUH !! :)
>
> PS Clint -- did i miss the VG report that you did ?
>
> --------
> Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
> Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
> http://www.cfisher.com/
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155216#155216
>
>
> __________ NOD32 2758 (20071231) Information __________
>
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Shock cords -- FWIW (triv) |
Deke,
Attached is a pic of mine with well over 700 hours on them.
Look like RED RED Yellow ?
Next pic will show mine that are not tight to stops.
I agree-- whazzzzzzzzza all da fuss about ?
Use what works and is proven.
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155224#155224
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dec31_016_160.jpg
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Shock cords -- FWIW (triv) |
Here is pic of Gear not touching stops .
Seems ok so far ,,,,,,,,,, :-)
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155225#155225
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dec31_014_160.jpg
Message 22
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| Subject: | News years eve pipc |
Just a pic for you not flying today.
4500' temp 20F
coming back down through the cloud deck.
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155227#155227
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dec31_013_139.jpg
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement |
Jan, that was my point --
how does everyone actually measure there toe in degrees.
Gotta all use the same distance
> Dave and all.
>
> one degree is 1,7455 at a distance of 100, inch, meter or bananas work the
> same.
>
> Earlier today I was reading about the Silent single seater , they said zero
> or one half degree. OUT with plane in level position.
>
> Jan
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155228#155228
Message 24
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| Subject: | Shock cords -- FWIW (triv) |
I think if you want perfection they should be right to the stops, but a
little sag doesn't hurt anything, in my opinion. I notice you use the
safety cables. Many years ago there was a long thread on this subject.
There were reports of some members who made hard landings, hard enough so
that the safety cables maxed out and bent the lateral bulkhead that the
cables are wrapped around. There may still be pics on Sportflight.com
somewhere. If I recall correctly, Skystar published a bulletin recommending
that safety cables not be used for this reason. It's rare for a bungee to
break anyway.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT
"Nothing will ever be attempted, if all possible objections must first be
overcome".- Samuel Johnson
>
> Here is pic of Gear not touching stops .
>
> Seems ok so far ,,,,,,,,,, :-)
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Autogas - color |
For the first 300 hours, I used auto-gas with MTBE (I live in CA). It
was clear. CA then switched to 6-10% ethanol, so I used that auto-gas
for another 100 hours. It was also clear. I then went to 100LL w/TCP f
or the past 100 hours (moved the plane to an airport that discouraged
self refueling from 5 gallon containers). It is a light blue. The tank
s were factory Kreem'ed in 1995. I switched the fuel lines from Mill-S
td 6000 to Auto SAE 30R9 and Bing Alcohol Resistant Fuel Line (from Ai
rcraft Spruce P/N 05-00500 for fuel gauge ) when introducing the ethan
ol fuel. No trouble from any of that, SO FAR! =0A=0ARoger Standl
ey=0AIV-1200, 912UL=0AN499KF=0A ----- Original Message -----
=0A From: LarryM<mailto:CrownLJ@verizon.net> =0A To: kitfox-l
ist@matronics.com<mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com> =0A Sent: Mond
ay, December 31, 2007 5:17 AM=0A Subject: Kitfox-List: Autogas - c
rownLJ@verizon.net<mailto:CrownLJ@verizon.net>>=0A=0A I bought
some autogas today at a good price ( for the area) knowing the pump sa
id it had ethanol, but was going to put it in the car latter. I decide
d to check to see if it did have ethanol in it, as not all stations ha
ve it, even though the pump says so. Turns out it indeed has ethanol i
n it, but what I wasn't prepared for was that the gas was clear. Not e
ven the slightest shade of yellow! I've never seen this before and won
der just what I bought. I thought I'd ask the list, as you guys have m
uch more experience than I. Have you seen "non yellow" auto gas?=0A
=0A Happy New Year!=0A larry=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A Re
ad this topic online here:=0A=0A http://forums.matronics.com/vi
ewtopic.php?p=155146#155146<http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.ph
p?p=155146#155146>=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
=======================
=======================
======================
=======================
=======================
=======================
=======================
====0A=0A=0A=0A
Message 26
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| Subject: | Toe-in, was Bungee replacement |
Somewhere in the archives is Skystar's/Denny's instructions on a step by
step procedure for setting/checking/adjusting the gear. It's probably a
service bulletin and I thought I had it here, but can't find it. It's just
one page so if anyone has it can you please copy/paste it for us?
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT
"Nothing will ever be attempted, if all possible objections must first be
overcome".- Samuel Johnson
----- Original Message -----
From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 3:49 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement
>
> Jan, that was my point --
> how does everyone actually measure there toe in degrees.
>
> Gotta all use the same distance
>
>
>> Dave and all.
>>
>> one degree is 1,7455 at a distance of 100, inch, meter or bananas work
>> the
>> same.
>>
>> Earlier today I was reading about the Silent single seater , they said
>> zero
>> or one half degree. OUT with plane in level position.
>>
>> Jan
>
>
> --------
> Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
> Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
> http://www.cfisher.com/
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155228#155228
>
>
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement |
I sort of agree with Clint, but in saying that, there was this same thread
while I was building and I used the method recommended by Skystar in their
service bulletin to adjust my gear to a little bit out from parallel on each
leg. I also had no ground handling problems nor did I get assymetrical wear
on the tires. I did have a friend that early on had so much problem with
his ground handling that he dumped his Model IV - onto someone else. My
guess it was wheel alignment. My friends Lancair had horrible tire wear
problems and a quick measurement and shims solved that.
I must say here, though, that all these little beauties are home made and
the factory that assembled the weldments was not really the picture of
mechanical precision. For this reason, I doubt it can be said that there
can never be a need for a bit of tweaking, or for that matter that since
mine tracks fine your problems must be in your technique. I do agree that
the worst handling airplane can be managed quite well with an expert pilot,
but what's the point in that? It sort of reminds me of the local CFI that
continually bragged about his expert off field landing after he ran out of
gas (0n a 20 minute flight).
Regarding how to determine alignment angle. The Skystar instructions, as I
recall, were to drop bobs from the tail wheel mounting bolt and the midline
between the wheels and mark a chock line on the floor representing the
center line of the fuselage. From here it gets a little more interesting.
Some will use the outside of the tire as the wheel longitudinal index
points. Some will use the brake rotor with standoffs on the straight edge
to clear the wheel contour. One guy I talked to would put a length of white
masking tape on the exact back of the tire, mark the center of the tire and
the floor directly under the axle. measure the distance beetween the two
marks. Then he rolled his airplane forward until the tape and mark was
exactly in front of the tire, again marking the floor under the axle. He
again measured the distance between the marks. This method gives overall
toe in or tow out, but doesn't identify which gearleg is the major culprit.
It is an easy way to do a quick check, however, but I guess it could be used
if the center line remained the centerline after the movement.
When I did it, I removed the wheels and used a square against the axle.
Once these measurements are determined with appropriate marks on the floor.
Measure a distance forward, draw a perpendicular line across the tracks of
the wheels and determine the distance between the center line and the
reference line for each wheel and it will indicate toe in or out and the
actual angle is easy to determine with a drawing program like Turbo Cad.
Just subtract the distence between the center line and each wheel index
point from each measurement and you get nice little triangles which can be
drawn into the drawing program and using the angle tool, it will give the
angles. The angles don't actually mean a lot unless you have the grove gear
and need to buy a shim.
With the tube gear the plan is to use a padded length of pipe and with the
tail secured, muscle the gear leg into alighment. What I found is the the
gear weldment is a pretty tough structure and the correction was solely in
the axle - it bent, requiring shims (a washer or two under the brake caliper
to bring that unto alignment with the axle.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 12:49 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement
>
> Jan, that was my point --
> how does everyone actually measure there toe in degrees.
>
> Gotta all use the same distance
>
>
>> Dave and all.
>>
>> one degree is 1,7455 at a distance of 100, inch, meter or bananas work
>> the
>> same.
>>
>> Earlier today I was reading about the Silent single seater , they said
>> zero
>> or one half degree. OUT with plane in level position.
>>
>> Jan
>
>
> --------
> Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
> Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
> http://www.cfisher.com/
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155228#155228
>
>
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Model 4 1050/1200 difference |
> I'm curious about the difference between the KF 4 1050 & 1200.
> Can the 1050 be converted to a 1200 and if so what would it in tail.
Terry, It would be quite a job to convert to a 1200. My opinion is that it would be easier to buy a flying model 4 1200 and do a paper rebuild of the 1050. Then sell the leftover plane/parts to recoup some of the cost. The following I copied from "Kitfox History" on the Kitfox factory web site, http://www.kitfoxaircraft.com/
"The Classic 4 has heavier lift struts and gear legs, as well as beefed up carry
through tubes in the fuselage, to allow for a higher gross weight than the earlier
Model 4 kits. The height of the vertical stabilizer and rudder was increased
by 10 inches, and the rudder depth was increased by 2 inches to allow for
improved handling."
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV, Phase one
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155250#155250
Message 29
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|
With all this talk about getting checked out in a Kitfox I am wondering how
hard it is to get checked out in a Kitfox compared to say a 140 or a
Citabria or a Cub or other similar types. I have found that a 140 kicks my
butt but a Decathlon is a cinch. Please any of you with experience in
various planes comment.
Pete
A wannabe
----- Original Message -----
From: "kirk hull" <kirkhull@kc.rr.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 6:46 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Georgia Members
>
> Most insurance will not cover giving instruction to others. They are also
> usually for the named pilot only. The EAA insurance is definitely that
> way
> as I was going to put an instructor on my policy to instruct my father and
> the insurance would not cover it. However what they don't know they don't
> complain about.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of wingnut
> Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 7:08 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Georgia Members
>
>
> Out of curiosity, how would insurance work if I let you take a lesson with
> my Kitfox? Anyone know?
>
>
>> Are there any KF members around Warner Robins, Georgia that would like to
> give me a lesson in their plane on presidents weekend Jan 19-21, while my
> wife is running a marathon?
>
>
> --------
> Luis Rodriguez
> Model IV 1200
> Rotax 912UL
> Flying Weekly
> Laurens, SC (34A)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155071#155071
>
>
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement |
Ones when I had my car at the Swedish Car Inspection, the guy there tried to
measure the toe-in on the rear wheel, with use of a libelle! was interesting
to watch him for a long time before he finely come to the conclusion I had
from the beginning, that it would not work out. :-)
Happy New Year
Jan
----- Original Message -----
From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 9:49 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement
>
> Jan, that was my point --
> how does everyone actually measure there toe in degrees.
>
> Gotta all use the same distance
>
>
>> Dave and all.
>>
>> one degree is 1,7455 at a distance of 100, inch, meter or bananas work
>> the
>> same.
>>
>> Earlier today I was reading about the Silent single seater , they said
>> zero
>> or one half degree. OUT with plane in level position.
>>
>> Jan
>
>
> --------
> Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
> Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
> http://www.cfisher.com/
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155228#155228
>
>
> __________ NOD32 2758 (20071231) Information __________
>
>
>
Message 31
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|
| Subject: | Re: Kitfox training |
Heh.. I found the Cesssna 140 to be entirely mild mannered - as well as
the Citabrias. Now, a PT-22 or a PA-20 Pacer... those can be pretty
mean mannered on the ground.
John Alexander
Woodland, CA
Pete Christensen wrote:
> <apeterchristensen@sbcglobal.net>
>
> With all this talk about getting checked out in a Kitfox I am
> wondering how hard it is to get checked out in a Kitfox compared to
> say a 140 or a Citabria or a Cub or other similar types. I have found
> that a 140 kicks my butt but a Decathlon is a cinch. Please any of
> you with experience in various planes comment.
>
> Pete
> A wannabe
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "kirk hull" <kirkhull@kc.rr.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 6:46 PM
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Georgia Members
>
>
>>
>> Most insurance will not cover giving instruction to others. They are
>> also
>> usually for the named pilot only. The EAA insurance is definitely
>> that way
>> as I was going to put an instructor on my policy to instruct my
>> father and
>> the insurance would not cover it. However what they don't know they
>> don't
>> complain about.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of wingnut
>> Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 7:08 PM
>> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Georgia Members
>>
>>
>> Out of curiosity, how would insurance work if I let you take a lesson
>> with
>> my Kitfox? Anyone know?
>>
>>
>>> Are there any KF members around Warner Robins, Georgia that would
>>> like to
>> give me a lesson in their plane on presidents weekend Jan 19-21,
>> while my
>> wife is running a marathon?
>>
>>
>> --------
>> Luis Rodriguez
>> Model IV 1200
>> Rotax 912UL
>> Flying Weekly
>> Laurens, SC (34A)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155071#155071
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Autogas - color |
I have had alcohol (and water) phase seperate out of ethanol blended gasoline.
In multiple instances my engines quit running.
The the excess water joins with the alcohol and phase seperates from the
gasoline resulting in a layer that would not sustain cumbustion.
This can occur when too much water is present in a tank from accumulated
condensation or other cause. In the presence of excess water the 10 percent
ethanol in the gasoline can seperate out enmasse from the gasoline and settle
to the bottom of the tank.
Inherent in this process is tricky little trap for an unwary pilot. When we
pull a sample from our tank we can easily mistake the alcohol-water settleout
for gasoline. It looks like gas. The color difference may not be noticeable.
The alcohol-water settleout is "thinner" than water and flows on a surface more
like gas than water. And, because all of the ethanol tends to seperate out of
the gasoline at once, the result is a large volume of alcohol in the bottom of
the tank (about 10 percent of the total volume of fuel in the tank) so when we
pull a sample from the sump all we get is the ethanol phase. We do not see a
demarcation line between gas and water that we typically see when we pull a
sample of gas that has some water contamination.
I poured some of the ethanol settleout into a couple of the funnels with the
fine internal mesh filters that some of us use to prevent water from getting
into our tanks when we gas up from the ubiquitous 5 gallon can and was
surprised to see that none of the funnels did not prevent the alcohol-water
settleout from passing thru.
I had discussions with technical folks from our multistate gasoline
distribution plant and was impressed with the amount of problems they were
having with alcohol - gasoline phase seperation, customer and gas station
problems as well as the remarkable steps they had to take to minimize settleout
within their distribution network.
One question that I asked repeatedly without getting a solid answer was, "If
settleout is close to occuring, can it be triggered in flight as we go to
altitude and outside air temperatures get colder?" Many physical and chemical
equalibria shift with temperature change as the only variable.
BJ
uoting dave <dave@cfisher.com>:
>
> No problem Larry,
>
> I would like to see some evidence of why not to use ethanol gas before i try
> to agree with it.
>
> Trust me I hate getting anything rammed down my throat by a beuacrat, BUT I
> have no issues with ethanol gas yet and I use thousands of gallons of it this
> year in many application from different 2 strokes to industrial 4 strokes to
> older and newer 4 stroke engines,4 bangers, v6 , v 8 and in-line 6 engines.
> Never had any issues yet.
>
> Certainly I am not worried about it from in-line.
>
> --------
> Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
> Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
> http://www.cfisher.com/
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155215#155215
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using Delmarva Online's Webmail.
http://www.dmv.com/
Message 33
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Terry, I own one of the latter 4-1050's. I understand that you can upgrade
the wing spars to the larger thicker ones, but the fuselage is built with
thicker chrom moly in the main structure of the 1200. I was told that theres no
way to make it a 4-1200. Steve Bennett
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)
Message 34
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| Subject: | Toe-in, was Bungee replacement |
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fox5flyer
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 6:20 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement
Steve, with all due respect, this is incorrect and this type of setup will
cause bent airplanes. It might be good for cars, but not airplanes.
Picture yourself with a small crosswind that causes you to veer slightly to
the right. The inside wheel is already turned left which will exacerbate
the turn. The more toe-in the more squirrely the airplane will be. If,
when level, the airplane has toe-in it will have more in the three point
attitude which partly why people lose control as they start to let the tail
down from the two point attitude. Add to this the loss of airflow over the
rudder and you have a ground loop.
The best is slightly toe-out when in level attitude. This will put the
wheels in a neutral attitude when in three point. Of course, there are lots
of airplanes out there with a little toe-in and some with more than a
little, and they are flyable, but are more difficult to keep straight when
in three point, especially when a swerve starts.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT
"Nothing will ever be attempted, if all possible objections must first be
overcome".- Samuel Johnson
>
> Gary
> I think that the toe out situation is far worse than the toe in .Just my
> .02
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan
> Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 4:20 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Bungee replacement
>
>
> At 07:13 AM 12/30/2007, you wrote:
>>I found out yesterday that I have some gear misalignment. As I push
>>the aircraft into the hanger the gear droops about 1 1/2 inch from
>>the stops and as I go forward about 15 ft it tightens up against the
>>stops.
>
> Be careful with this. If you have any camber, as I do, there will
> always be "apparent" toe in when in a three point attitude. (Camber
> is when the bottoms of the tires are closer together than the tops.)
> If you picture rotating the aircraft so it points straight up and
> then setting the tires on a table, you'll see the maximum extreme of
> the toe in associated with camber. Even though it's much less in a
> three point it's still there. (Toe-in due to camber will
> theoretically be zero when the fuselage is horizontal.)
>
> My plane has a bunch of camber resulting in about 2.5 degrees of
> toe-in in a three point attitude and about 1 1/4 degrees when the
> fuselage is horizontal. I have no problem with this configuration
> other than that I have to replace my tires after 200 hours and ?
> landings. I think the reason for my camber and toe-in is that when
> the plane hits hard and the camber goes negative then the toe-in will
> go to zero. Just a theory. (The original builder built beefy new tube
> gear with more camber and a little toe-in.)
>
> You'll see many toe-in arguments in the archives. I personally
> believe toe-out is theoretically better, but as you can see I've been
> flying with toed-in tube gear and have had virtually no problems in a
> wide variety of conditions: high speed, low speed, wheelies,
> three-point, crosswind, pavement, dirt, and mud. Go figure.
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> San Diego, CA
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>
>
>
Message 35
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Pete,
I can only comment on transitioning from a C152 to a Model 7. I
found the Model 7 to be more nimble and more responsive. This may in part be
do to the fact that the first time I flew my plane it was about a 50 degree
day cool and dry. But the plane was very predictable and was not a problem
at all. But sense both planes are tri-gear. How much easier can it get.
Roger McConnell, Duncan, OK
Model 7 Trigear, Rotax 912uls
Flying sense Jan. 06
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete
Christensen
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 5:37 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox training
<apeterchristensen@sbcglobal.net>
With all this talk about getting checked out in a Kitfox I am wondering how
hard it is to get checked out in a Kitfox compared to say a 140 or a
Citabria or a Cub or other similar types. I have found that a 140 kicks my
butt but a Decathlon is a cinch. Please any of you with experience in
various planes comment.
Pete
A wannabe
>
>
>
Message 36
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Has anyone implemented cockpit adjustable rudder trim on the Kitfox? If
so, how did you go about it.
Happy New Year to everyone.
John Alexander
Woodland, CA
Message 37
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| Subject: | Toe-in, was Bungee replacement |
Gary In my experience with aircraft and autos when you speak of toe in you
are talking about 1/16 of an inch toe in when the toe is out the wheels get
really squirley once the aircraft moves forward , In my experience as an A&P
mechanic to much of either on will cause a handling problem, you also need
to keep in mind that the friction of the wheels against the ground will pull
them rearward and if you have a little toe in they will be closer to neutral
, but with a toe out situation they will have a negative number, my model 5
has about 1/16 inch toe in and handles great I have around 600hrs on it and
the tires show very little wear Like I said just my .02
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fox5flyer
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 6:20 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement
Steve, with all due respect, this is incorrect and this type of setup will
cause bent airplanes. It might be good for cars, but not airplanes.
Picture yourself with a small crosswind that causes you to veer slightly to
the right. The inside wheel is already turned left which will exacerbate
the turn. The more toe-in the more squirrely the airplane will be. If,
when level, the airplane has toe-in it will have more in the three point
attitude which partly why people lose control as they start to let the tail
down from the two point attitude. Add to this the loss of airflow over the
rudder and you have a ground loop.
The best is slightly toe-out when in level attitude. This will put the
wheels in a neutral attitude when in three point. Of course, there are lots
of airplanes out there with a little toe-in and some with more than a
little, and they are flyable, but are more difficult to keep straight when
in three point, especially when a swerve starts.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT
"Nothing will ever be attempted, if all possible objections must first be
overcome".- Samuel Johnson
>
> Gary
> I think that the toe out situation is far worse than the toe in .Just my
> .02
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan
> Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 4:20 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Bungee replacement
>
>
> At 07:13 AM 12/30/2007, you wrote:
>>I found out yesterday that I have some gear misalignment. As I push
>>the aircraft into the hanger the gear droops about 1 1/2 inch from
>>the stops and as I go forward about 15 ft it tightens up against the
>>stops.
>
> Be careful with this. If you have any camber, as I do, there will
> always be "apparent" toe in when in a three point attitude. (Camber
> is when the bottoms of the tires are closer together than the tops.)
> If you picture rotating the aircraft so it points straight up and
> then setting the tires on a table, you'll see the maximum extreme of
> the toe in associated with camber. Even though it's much less in a
> three point it's still there. (Toe-in due to camber will
> theoretically be zero when the fuselage is horizontal.)
>
> My plane has a bunch of camber resulting in about 2.5 degrees of
> toe-in in a three point attitude and about 1 1/4 degrees when the
> fuselage is horizontal. I have no problem with this configuration
> other than that I have to replace my tires after 200 hours and ?
> landings. I think the reason for my camber and toe-in is that when
> the plane hits hard and the camber goes negative then the toe-in will
> go to zero. Just a theory. (The original builder built beefy new tube
> gear with more camber and a little toe-in.)
>
> You'll see many toe-in arguments in the archives. I personally
> believe toe-out is theoretically better, but as you can see I've been
> flying with toed-in tube gear and have had virtually no problems in a
> wide variety of conditions: high speed, low speed, wheelies,
> three-point, crosswind, pavement, dirt, and mud. Go figure.
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> San Diego, CA
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>
>
>
Message 38
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| Subject: | Toe-in, was Bungee replacement |
everyone ,
I'm not wanting to argue about the toe in or out I'm just stating what
worked for me. since you are all the manufactures you can do whatever you
want and that is the GREAT part of building your own aircraft. the Kitfox
is a very well designd aircraft and fits the homebuilder very well
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve eccles
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 7:53 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement
Gary In my experience with aircraft and autos when you speak of toe in you
are talking about 1/16 of an inch toe in when the toe is out the wheels get
really squirley once the aircraft moves forward , In my experience as an A&P
mechanic to much of either on will cause a handling problem, you also need
to keep in mind that the friction of the wheels against the ground will pull
them rearward and if you have a little toe in they will be closer to neutral
, but with a toe out situation they will have a negative number, my model 5
has about 1/16 inch toe in and handles great I have around 600hrs on it and
the tires show very little wear Like I said just my .02
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fox5flyer
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 6:20 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement
Steve, with all due respect, this is incorrect and this type of setup will
cause bent airplanes. It might be good for cars, but not airplanes.
Picture yourself with a small crosswind that causes you to veer slightly to
the right. The inside wheel is already turned left which will exacerbate
the turn. The more toe-in the more squirrely the airplane will be. If,
when level, the airplane has toe-in it will have more in the three point
attitude which partly why people lose control as they start to let the tail
down from the two point attitude. Add to this the loss of airflow over the
rudder and you have a ground loop.
The best is slightly toe-out when in level attitude. This will put the
wheels in a neutral attitude when in three point. Of course, there are lots
of airplanes out there with a little toe-in and some with more than a
little, and they are flyable, but are more difficult to keep straight when
in three point, especially when a swerve starts.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT
"Nothing will ever be attempted, if all possible objections must first be
overcome".- Samuel Johnson
>
> Gary
> I think that the toe out situation is far worse than the toe in .Just my
> .02
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan
> Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 4:20 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Bungee replacement
>
>
> At 07:13 AM 12/30/2007, you wrote:
>>I found out yesterday that I have some gear misalignment. As I push
>>the aircraft into the hanger the gear droops about 1 1/2 inch from
>>the stops and as I go forward about 15 ft it tightens up against the
>>stops.
>
> Be careful with this. If you have any camber, as I do, there will
> always be "apparent" toe in when in a three point attitude. (Camber
> is when the bottoms of the tires are closer together than the tops.)
> If you picture rotating the aircraft so it points straight up and
> then setting the tires on a table, you'll see the maximum extreme of
> the toe in associated with camber. Even though it's much less in a
> three point it's still there. (Toe-in due to camber will
> theoretically be zero when the fuselage is horizontal.)
>
> My plane has a bunch of camber resulting in about 2.5 degrees of
> toe-in in a three point attitude and about 1 1/4 degrees when the
> fuselage is horizontal. I have no problem with this configuration
> other than that I have to replace my tires after 200 hours and ?
> landings. I think the reason for my camber and toe-in is that when
> the plane hits hard and the camber goes negative then the toe-in will
> go to zero. Just a theory. (The original builder built beefy new tube
> gear with more camber and a little toe-in.)
>
> You'll see many toe-in arguments in the archives. I personally
> believe toe-out is theoretically better, but as you can see I've been
> flying with toed-in tube gear and have had virtually no problems in a
> wide variety of conditions: high speed, low speed, wheelies,
> three-point, crosswind, pavement, dirt, and mud. Go figure.
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> San Diego, CA
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>
>
>
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox training |
Pete asks:
>With all this talk about getting checked out in a Kitfox I am
>wondering how hard it is to get checked out in a Kitfox compared to
>say a 140 or a Citabria or a Cub or other similar types.
I got my tail wheel endorsement in a 1946 Aeronca Chief. I found
tail wheel Kitfoxes MUCH easier to handle on the ground than the
Aeronca. That said, I later found out that the rudder travel on this
particular Chief was incorrectly set and it only had about half throw
in one direction.
Mike G.
N728KF
Phoenix, AZ
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement |
All this about alignment.... I assume you all have the main gear tires
sitting on 'grease plates' at a loaded weight when you start taking
measurements. Hmmm.....?
>
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: News years eve pipc |
Hi Dave,,Nice pic.Have a happy new year to you Dave..Steve Shinabery
N554KF KF2 582 for now
dave wrote:
>
> Just a pic for you not flying today.
> 4500' temp 20F
> coming back down through the cloud deck.
>
> --------
> Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
> Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
> http://www.cfisher.com/
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155227#155227
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/dec31_013_139.jpg
>
>
>
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