---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 12/31/07: 41 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:35 AM - Re: Re: Bungee replacement (Michel Verheughe) 2. 01:28 AM - Re: Re: KFGeorgia Members (debrun26@juno.com) 3. 04:21 AM - Toe-in, was Bungee replacement (fox5flyer) 4. 05:18 AM - Autogas - color (LarryM) 5. 05:24 AM - Re: Kitfox Georgia Members (W Duke) 6. 05:34 AM - Re: Re: KFGeorgia Members (John W. Hart) 7. 05:40 AM - Re: Autogas - color (dave) 8. 05:43 AM - Re: KFGeorgia Members (dave) 9. 06:38 AM - Re: Re: Autogas - color (Mike Chaney) 10. 07:46 AM - Re: Autogas - color (dave) 11. 07:55 AM - (terry) 12. 08:03 AM - Re: Autogas - color (LarryM) 13. 08:52 AM - Re: Re: Bungee replacement (Marco Menezes) 14. 09:41 AM - Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement (Clint Bazzill) 15. 11:19 AM - Re: Autogas - color (dave) 16. 11:32 AM - Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement (dave) 17. 12:10 PM - Re: Kitfox Georgia Members (debrun26@juno.com) 18. 12:11 PM - Shock cords -- FWIW (triv) (fox5flyer) 19. 12:42 PM - Re: Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement (JC Propeller Design) 20. 12:43 PM - Re: Shock cords -- FWIW (triv) (dave) 21. 12:44 PM - Re: Shock cords -- FWIW (triv) (dave) 22. 12:46 PM - News years eve pipc (dave) 23. 12:49 PM - Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement (dave) 24. 01:51 PM - Shock cords -- FWIW (triv) (fox5flyer) 25. 02:02 PM - Re: Autogas - color (Roger Standley) 26. 02:02 PM - Toe-in, was Bungee replacement (fox5flyer) 27. 02:58 PM - Re: Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement (Lowell Fitt) 28. 03:34 PM - Model 4 1050/1200 difference (Tom Jones) 29. 03:37 PM - Kitfox training (Pete Christensen) 30. 03:46 PM - Re: Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement (JC Propeller Design) 31. 04:31 PM - Re: Kitfox training (John Alexander) 32. 05:26 PM - Re: Re: Autogas - color (bjones@dmv.com) 33. 05:38 PM - Re: (Sbennett3@AOL.COM) 34. 05:38 PM - Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement (steve eccles) 35. 05:40 PM - Re: Kitfox training (Roger McConnell) 36. 05:40 PM - Rudder trim (John Alexander) 37. 05:53 PM - Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement (steve eccles) 38. 06:11 PM - Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement (steve eccles) 39. 06:25 PM - Re: Kitfox training (Michael Gibbs) 40. 06:25 PM - Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement (84KF) 41. 07:04 PM - Re: News years eve pipc (Steve Shinabery) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:35:33 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Bungee replacement On Dec 30, 2007, at 11:19 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote: > At 07:13 AM 12/30/2007, you wrote: >> I found out yesterday that I have some gear misalignment. As I push >> the aircraft into the hanger the gear droops about 1 1/2 inch from >> the stops and as I go forward about 15 ft it tightens up against the >> stops. > > Be careful with this. If you have any camber, as I do, there will > always be "apparent" toe in when in a three point attitude. I can't say if I have a camber because I never tried to measure it. Nothing is apparent visually, though. I do have a slight toe-in, which I realised when I installed my wheel penetration skis. When I push the plane in the hangar, the gear also droops but once in place, I lift one wing and the gears get together again and the bungees are tight. Incidentally, here is a photo of how I made a tourniquet to keep the gears together when I replaced the bungees. My son is under and I am with my head inside the plane. See you next year! :-) Michel Verheughe Norway Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:28:30 AM PST US From: "debrun26@juno.com" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: KFGeorgia Members I think I was misconstrued... I was wondering if there was someone in Ge orgia that would feel comfortable giving me the lesson in their own plan e where they would be PIC. If they wouldn't feel comfortable doing this ... where they would take over if needed before I ground loop their prid e and joy... then I wouldn't feel comfortable either!!! I wasn't lookin g to borrow a plane for instruction w/o the owner being the instructor a nd PIC. Layne _____________________________________________________________ Take care of your pets with quality veterinary supplies. Click here! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iie7X6avDQjFoBcsC3ZtUqS GztQqMbK9z9J8ER0jFtwBv5CYT/ ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:21:26 AM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Kitfox-List: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement Steve, with all due respect, this is incorrect and this type of setup will cause bent airplanes. It might be good for cars, but not airplanes. Picture yourself with a small crosswind that causes you to veer slightly to the right. The inside wheel is already turned left which will exacerbate the turn. The more toe-in the more squirrely the airplane will be. If, when level, the airplane has toe-in it will have more in the three point attitude which partly why people lose control as they start to let the tail down from the two point attitude. Add to this the loss of airflow over the rudder and you have a ground loop. The best is slightly toe-out when in level attitude. This will put the wheels in a neutral attitude when in three point. Of course, there are lots of airplanes out there with a little toe-in and some with more than a little, and they are flyable, but are more difficult to keep straight when in three point, especially when a swerve starts. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT "Nothing will ever be attempted, if all possible objections must first be overcome".- Samuel Johnson > > Gary > I think that the toe out situation is far worse than the toe in .Just my > .02 > Steve > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan > Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 4:20 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Bungee replacement > > > At 07:13 AM 12/30/2007, you wrote: >>I found out yesterday that I have some gear misalignment. As I push >>the aircraft into the hanger the gear droops about 1 1/2 inch from >>the stops and as I go forward about 15 ft it tightens up against the >>stops. > > Be careful with this. If you have any camber, as I do, there will > always be "apparent" toe in when in a three point attitude. (Camber > is when the bottoms of the tires are closer together than the tops.) > If you picture rotating the aircraft so it points straight up and > then setting the tires on a table, you'll see the maximum extreme of > the toe in associated with camber. Even though it's much less in a > three point it's still there. (Toe-in due to camber will > theoretically be zero when the fuselage is horizontal.) > > My plane has a bunch of camber resulting in about 2.5 degrees of > toe-in in a three point attitude and about 1 1/4 degrees when the > fuselage is horizontal. I have no problem with this configuration > other than that I have to replace my tires after 200 hours and ? > landings. I think the reason for my camber and toe-in is that when > the plane hits hard and the camber goes negative then the toe-in will > go to zero. Just a theory. (The original builder built beefy new tube > gear with more camber and a little toe-in.) > > You'll see many toe-in arguments in the archives. I personally > believe toe-out is theoretically better, but as you can see I've been > flying with toed-in tube gear and have had virtually no problems in a > wide variety of conditions: high speed, low speed, wheelies, > three-point, crosswind, pavement, dirt, and mud. Go figure. > > > Guy Buchanan > San Diego, CA > K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:18:06 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Autogas - color From: "LarryM" I bought some autogas today at a good price ( for the area) knowing the pump said it had ethanol, but was going to put it in the car latter. I decided to check to see if it did have ethanol in it, as not all stations have it, even though the pump says so. Turns out it indeed has ethanol in it, but what I wasn't prepared for was that the gas was clear. Not even the slightest shade of yellow! I've never seen this before and wonder just what I bought. I thought I'd ask the list, as you guys have much more experience than I. Have you seen "non yellow" auto gas? Happy New Year! larry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155146#155146 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:24:48 AM PST US From: W Duke Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Georgia Members I would have been happy to in Dublin, GA but I will be out of town that weekend. Can you move President's day? do not archive Maxwell "debrun26@juno.com" wrote: Are there any KF members around Warner Robins, Georgia that would like to give me a lesson in their plane on presidents weekend Jan 19-21, while my wife is running a marathon? We'll be coming from Alaska where I'm learning to fly my KF Series 5 when I can pin my CFI down for instruction, which isn't often. My wife Debbie runs marathons around the country when she can and when I can get away with her I try to do something for me too.If there's anyone in the area who would like to help me out please e-mail back. Thanks, Layne Cropper ph: 907-569-2767 DO NOT ARCHIVE _____________________________________________________________ Choose from a huge assortment of fun screensavers. Click here! Maxwell Duke S6/TD/IO240 Dublin, GA --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:34:04 AM PST US From: "John W. Hart" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: KFGeorgia Members The time flown under the conditions you describe cannot be counted toward time needed to qualify for a pilot certificate, unless the owner also happens to be a CFI. In other words, it is passenger time, you being the passenger. It certainly would give you experience in handling the controls. John Hart From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of debrun26@juno.com Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 3:25 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: KFGeorgia Members I think I was misconstrued... I was wondering if there was someone in Georgia that would feel comfortable giving me the lesson in their own plane where they would be PIC. If they wouldn't feel comfortable doing this... where they would take over if needed before I ground loop their pride and joy... then I wouldn't feel comfortable either!!! I wasn't looking to borrow a plane for instruction w/o the owner being the instructor and PIC. Layne _____________________________________________________________ Take care of your pets with quality veterinary supplies. Click here! ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:40:08 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Autogas - color From: "dave" Larry, The gas I buy seems to be for the most part clear or close to it. It seems to turn more yellow after it sits for a few weeks though. I believe it has ethanol in it but I have never checked. I have flown my Kitfox with 582 380 hours since this new engine in June 2006 and never had any isssues yet. Engine never been apart either. I keep hearing all this ethanol propaganda about how this and that but I had had no issues YET !! . I will say that ethanol gas gives you less power per gallon that gas with out it, but our greenwashing government says it good but you will use more under same power settings. -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada Flying Videos and Kitfox Info http://www.cfisher.com/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155150#155150 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:43:03 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: KFGeorgia Members From: "dave" You want Kitfox time ? Come to Ontario, I will be happy to take you flying. Bring your winter woolies !! -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada Flying Videos and Kitfox Info http://www.cfisher.com/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155151#155151 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:38:24 AM PST US From: Mike Chaney Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Autogas - color Dave I may be wrong but I thought the ethanol issue was with the Kitfox fuel tank coatings (Kreem) and not with the Rotax 582. My information is based on previous list discussions concerning this issue. If my understanding is correct then I am interested in the type of tanks you have. If you do have the Kreem coatings have you experienced any problems? Mike Chaney 1996 Kitfox IV Previously 582 now Jabiru 2200 dave wrote: Larry, The gas I buy seems to be for the most part clear or close to it. It seems to turn more yellow after it sits for a few weeks though. I believe it has ethanol in it but I have never checked. I have flown my Kitfox with 582 380 hours since this new engine in June 2006 and never had any isssues yet. Engine never been apart either. I keep hearing all this ethanol propaganda about how this and that but I had had no issues YET !! . I will say that ethanol gas gives you less power per gallon that gas with out it, but our greenwashing government says it good but you will use more under same power settings. -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada Flying Videos and Kitfox Info http://www.cfisher.com/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155150#155150 --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:46:25 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Autogas - color From: "dave" I don't think i have Kreem in mine as they look like just fiberglass. I think KREEM might be the culprit in the tanks that have issues but I am not sure. If mine leak I will buy these http://wingtanks.com/ drop them in and fly. I think the resin used in the wingtanks i have seesm to be ok so far any how. -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada Flying Videos and Kitfox Info http://www.cfisher.com/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155175#155175 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:55:14 AM PST US From: "terry" Subject: Kitfox-List: I'm curious about the difference between the KF 4 1050 & 1200. Can the 1050 be converted to a 1200 and if so what would it in tail. First timer on the list. C_FPXX Terry Z Canada ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:03:03 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Autogas - color From: "LarryM" Thanks Dave, I agree the Rotax doesn't care, but my tanks do. I don't want to replace them, and "real gas" is still available here, so I'll use it until it is no longer available. All the gas that I have bought for the car, etc before was always not seen by me, or what I did see - was yellow as the "real gas" is. It surprised me by the lack of color. Happy New Year larry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155177#155177 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:52:44 AM PST US From: Marco Menezes Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Bungee replacement Thanks for the pic, Michel. Others who have solved the bungee replacement issue would really help the rest of us by posting videos of your procedures. Written instructions are helpful but, as they say, "one picture . . . . ." Happy new year! do not archive Michel Verheughe wrote: On Dec 30, 2007, at 11:19 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote: > At 07:13 AM 12/30/2007, you wrote: >> I found out yesterday that I have some gear misalignment. As I push >> the aircraft into the hanger the gear droops about 1 1/2 inch from >> the stops and as I go forward about 15 ft it tightens up against the >> stops. > > Be careful with this. If you have any camber, as I do, there will > always be "apparent" toe in when in a three point attitude. I can't say if I have a camber because I never tried to measure it. Nothing is apparent visually, though. I do have a slight toe-in, which I realised when I installed my wheel penetration skis. When I push the plane in the hangar, the gear also droops but once in place, I lift one wing and the gears get together again and the bungees are tight. Incidentally, here is a photo of how I made a tourniquet to keep the gears together when I replaced the bungees. My son is under and I am with my head inside the plane. See you next year! :-) Michel Verheughe Norway Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 Marco Menezes Model 2 582 N99KX --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:41:25 AM PST US From: Clint Bazzill Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement I might as well join in this toe-in toe-out food fight. My personnel feeli ngs someone needs and excuse for not being able to hold their aircraft stai ght down the runway. The wheels are only a few inches from the CG and the tailwheel and rudder are many many feet back. The little effect that you h ave from the toe-in toe-out I am sure would take a superman pilot to tell. Its like driving a car backwards at 40-50 MPH and saying that the wheel al ignment is off because its hard to hold straight. Clint> From: fox5flyer@i dealwifi.net> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com> Subject: Kitfox-List: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 07:19:51 -0500> > --> Kitfox -List message posted by: "fox5flyer" > > Steve, wi th all due respect, this is incorrect and this type of setup will > cause b ent airplanes. It might be good for cars, but not airplanes. > Picture your self with a small crosswind that causes you to veer slightly to > the right . The inside wheel is already turned left which will exacerbate > the turn. The more toe-in the more squirrely the airplane will be. If, > when level, the airplane has toe-in it will have more in the three point > attitude wh ich partly why people lose control as they start to let the tail > down fro m the two point attitude. Add to this the loss of airflow over the > rudder and you have a ground loop.> The best is slightly toe-out when in level at titude. This will put the > wheels in a neutral attitude when in three poin t. Of course, there are lots > of airplanes out there with a little toe-in and some with more than a > little, and they are flyable, but are more diff icult to keep straight when > in three point, especially when a swerve star ts.> Deke Morisse> Mikado Michigan> S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT> "Nothing will ev er be attempted, if all possible objections must first be > overcome".- Sam uel Johnson> > >> > Gary> > I think that the toe out situation is far worse than the toe in .Just my > > .02> > Steve> >> > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com> > [mailto:owner-kitfox-li st-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan> > Sent: Sunday, Decembe r 30, 2007 4:20 PM> > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com> > Subject: Re: Kitfox- uchanan > >> > At 07:13 AM 12/30/2007, you wrote:> >>I fou nd out yesterday that I have some gear misalignment. As I push> >>the aircr aft into the hanger the gear droops about 1 1/2 inch from> >>the stops and as I go forward about 15 ft it tightens up against the > >>stops.> >> > Be careful with this. If you have any camber, as I do, there will> > always be "apparent" toe in when in a three point attitude. (Camber> > is when the b ottoms of the tires are closer together than the tops.)> > If you picture r otating the aircraft so it points straight up and> > then setting the tires on a table, you'll see the maximum extreme of> > the toe in associated wit h camber. Even though it's much less in a> > three point it's still there. (Toe-in due to camber will> > theoretically be zero when the fuselage is ho rizontal.)> >> > My plane has a bunch of camber resulting in about 2.5 degr ees of> > toe-in in a three point attitude and about 1 1/4 degrees when the > > fuselage is horizontal. I have no problem with this configuration> > ot her than that I have to replace my tires after 200 hours and ?> > landings. I think the reason for my camber and toe-in is that when> > the plane hits hard and the camber goes negative then the toe-in will> > go to zero. Just a theory. (The original builder built beefy new tube> > gear with more cam ber and a little toe-in.)> >> > You'll see many toe-in arguments in the arc hives. I personally> > believe toe-out is theoretically better, but as you can see I've been> > flying with toed-in tube gear and have had virtually n o problems in a> > wide variety of conditions: high speed, low speed, wheel ies,> > three-point, crosswind, pavement, dirt, and mud. Go figure.> >> >> > Guy Buchanan> > San Diego, CA> > K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, th ========================> _ ======================> > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:19:43 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Autogas - color From: "dave" No problem Larry, I would like to see some evidence of why not to use ethanol gas before i try to agree with it. Trust me I hate getting anything rammed down my throat by a beuacrat, BUT I have no issues with ethanol gas yet and I use thousands of gallons of it this year in many application from different 2 strokes to industrial 4 strokes to older and newer 4 stroke engines,4 bangers, v6 , v 8 and in-line 6 engines. Never had any issues yet. Certainly I am not worried about it from in-line. -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada Flying Videos and Kitfox Info http://www.cfisher.com/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155215#155215 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:32:38 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement From: "dave" > My personnel feelings someone needs and excuse for not being able to hold their aircraft staight down the runway. Clint GREAT ANSWER !! I mentioned the same thing on this the other day on Grove hear > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=37513 Grove gear looks good but VERY expensive and extra weight over the bungee. A personal choice aesthetically , but No substitute to taildragger training And for the record, my bungees are only wrapped 5 turns rather than 6 and sloppy and old ....... They are about 1 " from the stops empty. I have taken 6 guys in the last few days flying all over 200 lbs and I weigh 210 lbs as well. I am not sure what all the fuss is about. Also, if you are measuring toe in or out-- HOW MUCH IS A DEGREE ? I would measure toe only one way......... by the differance in distance between the front and rear of the tires ........ you can measure sidewalls but the BEST WAY is to scribe a line in the tire as it is spun to get the actual centerline. You could use chalk or paint to scribe it --not the ACTUAL TIRE DUH !! :) PS Clint -- did i miss the VG report that you did ? -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada Flying Videos and Kitfox Info http://www.cfisher.com/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155216#155216 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:10:26 PM PST US From: "debrun26@juno.com" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Georgia Members Hi Maxwell, I guess it is Martin Luther weekend in Jan. The marathon i s Jan. 19th so I cannot change and we have tickets etc~ Thanks for bein g willing and Please look me up if you get to Anchorage and I will do th e same when I get back to that area....my wife it trying to run a marath on in every state and needs quite a few more. Layne from Anchorage _____________________________________________________________ Find custom shirts that suit you to a "t"! Click now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifpMsdAIuEF0t3i9NPViHT LVYnwd6xtPXKxzZL596MFwWi2n/ ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:11:03 PM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Kitfox-List: Shock cords -- FWIW (triv) My model II/582 had bungee gear and I never understood what all the fuss was about. It landed straight and I changed out two sets of shock cords over 4 years (3 counting orig), spending perhaps a couple hours on each set (I made my own). I put just under 400 hours on it and I was always amazed at how resilient the system was. Never had a problem. I now have a S5 and with nearly 400 hours on spring gear which is also nice, but it came with the package so I was kinda stuck with it. I do remember that during building I weighed the entire spring gear assembly with wheels and tires and it came to about 75 lbs. I don't know how that compares with the bungee gear, but it sure seemed heavy. Then again, it has held up quite well on my farm strip. For all you bungee gear users, here's what Dan Denny had to say about shock cords. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT "Nothing will ever be attempted, if all possible objections must first be overcome".- Samuel Johnson "SUBJECT: Shock Cords FROM: Denney Aerocraft Company Dear KitfoxT Builders, Over the course of the past several months, good quality shock cord has been increasingly difficult to obtain. The shock cords (LSC-19) included in your landing gear kit may be fabricated of one of three different types of bungee material. Some of this material is of smaller diameter than the original stock. You may have to take more wraps than indicated by the instructions, Step (22) and Figure LGH-6. The original material is .41" diameter and color coded with two rows of black threads and one of red. Install it according to the manual (six wraps). The smaller cord is about .33" diameter and marked with 3 rows of green threads. You will have to take about eight wraps. It seems to be good quality bungee material and should work just as well as the original. For a time we sent bungee material that has proven to be of inferior quality. It is about 7/16" (.41") diameter and marked by paired bands of red and green. These shock cords do not last at all. Return them to the factory and we will be happy to replace them with the better - quality cords as soon as possible. Happy building Dan Denney rexjan@bigpond.com ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:42:19 PM PST US From: "JC Propeller Design" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement Dave and all. one degree is 1,7455 at a distance of 100, inch, meter or bananas work the same. Earlier today I was reading about the Silent single seater , they said zero or one half degree. OUT with plane in level position. Jan ----- Original Message ----- From: "dave" Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 8:32 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement > > >> My personnel feelings someone needs and excuse for not being able to hold >> their aircraft staight down the runway. > > > Clint GREAT ANSWER !! I mentioned the same thing on this the other day > on Grove hear > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=37513 > Grove gear looks good but VERY expensive and extra weight over the bungee. > A personal choice aesthetically , but No substitute to taildragger > training > > And for the record, my bungees are only wrapped 5 turns rather than 6 and > sloppy and old ....... They are about 1 " from the stops empty. I have > taken 6 guys in the last few days flying all over 200 lbs and I weigh 210 > lbs as well. I am not sure what all the fuss is about. > > Also, if you are measuring toe in or out-- HOW MUCH IS A DEGREE ? > I would measure toe only one way......... by the differance in distance > between the front and rear of the tires ........ you can measure > sidewalls but the BEST WAY is to scribe a line in the tire as it is spun > to get the actual centerline. You could use chalk or paint to scribe > it --not the ACTUAL TIRE DUH !! :) > > PS Clint -- did i miss the VG report that you did ? > > -------- > Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada > Flying Videos and Kitfox Info > http://www.cfisher.com/ > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155216#155216 > > > __________ NOD32 2758 (20071231) Information __________ > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:43:03 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Shock cords -- FWIW (triv) From: "dave" Deke, Attached is a pic of mine with well over 700 hours on them. Look like RED RED Yellow ? Next pic will show mine that are not tight to stops. I agree-- whazzzzzzzzza all da fuss about ? Use what works and is proven. -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada Flying Videos and Kitfox Info http://www.cfisher.com/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155224#155224 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dec31_016_160.jpg ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:44:07 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Shock cords -- FWIW (triv) From: "dave" Here is pic of Gear not touching stops . Seems ok so far ,,,,,,,,,, :-) -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada Flying Videos and Kitfox Info http://www.cfisher.com/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155225#155225 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dec31_014_160.jpg ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:46:27 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: News years eve pipc From: "dave" Just a pic for you not flying today. 4500' temp 20F coming back down through the cloud deck. -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada Flying Videos and Kitfox Info http://www.cfisher.com/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155227#155227 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dec31_013_139.jpg ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:49:32 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement From: "dave" Jan, that was my point -- how does everyone actually measure there toe in degrees. Gotta all use the same distance > Dave and all. > > one degree is 1,7455 at a distance of 100, inch, meter or bananas work the > same. > > Earlier today I was reading about the Silent single seater , they said zero > or one half degree. OUT with plane in level position. > > Jan -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada Flying Videos and Kitfox Info http://www.cfisher.com/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155228#155228 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:51:49 PM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Kitfox-List: Shock cords -- FWIW (triv) I think if you want perfection they should be right to the stops, but a little sag doesn't hurt anything, in my opinion. I notice you use the safety cables. Many years ago there was a long thread on this subject. There were reports of some members who made hard landings, hard enough so that the safety cables maxed out and bent the lateral bulkhead that the cables are wrapped around. There may still be pics on Sportflight.com somewhere. If I recall correctly, Skystar published a bulletin recommending that safety cables not be used for this reason. It's rare for a bungee to break anyway. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT "Nothing will ever be attempted, if all possible objections must first be overcome".- Samuel Johnson > > Here is pic of Gear not touching stops . > > Seems ok so far ,,,,,,,,,, :-) ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:02:35 PM PST US From: "Roger Standley" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Autogas - color For the first 300 hours, I used auto-gas with MTBE (I live in CA). It was clear. CA then switched to 6-10% ethanol, so I used that auto-gas for another 100 hours. It was also clear. I then went to 100LL w/TCP f or the past 100 hours (moved the plane to an airport that discouraged self refueling from 5 gallon containers). It is a light blue. The tank s were factory Kreem'ed in 1995. I switched the fuel lines from Mill-S td 6000 to Auto SAE 30R9 and Bing Alcohol Resistant Fuel Line (from Ai rcraft Spruce P/N 05-00500 for fuel gauge ) when introducing the ethan ol fuel. No trouble from any of that, SO FAR! =0A=0ARoger Standl ey=0AIV-1200, 912UL=0AN499KF=0A ----- Original Message ----- =0A From: LarryM =0A To: kitfox-l ist@matronics.com =0A Sent: Mond ay, December 31, 2007 5:17 AM=0A Subject: Kitfox-List: Autogas - c rownLJ@verizon.net>=0A=0A I bought some autogas today at a good price ( for the area) knowing the pump sa id it had ethanol, but was going to put it in the car latter. I decide d to check to see if it did have ethanol in it, as not all stations ha ve it, even though the pump says so. Turns out it indeed has ethanol i n it, but what I wasn't prepared for was that the gas was clear. Not e ven the slightest shade of yellow! I've never seen this before and won der just what I bought. I thought I'd ask the list, as you guys have m uch more experience than I. Have you seen "non yellow" auto gas?=0A =0A Happy New Year!=0A larry=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A Re ad this topic online here:=0A=0A http://forums.matronics.com/vi ewtopic.php?p=155146#155146=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A ======================= ======================= ====================== ======================= ======================= ======================= ======================= ====0A=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:02:44 PM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Kitfox-List: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement Somewhere in the archives is Skystar's/Denny's instructions on a step by step procedure for setting/checking/adjusting the gear. It's probably a service bulletin and I thought I had it here, but can't find it. It's just one page so if anyone has it can you please copy/paste it for us? Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT "Nothing will ever be attempted, if all possible objections must first be overcome".- Samuel Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: "dave" Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 3:49 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement > > Jan, that was my point -- > how does everyone actually measure there toe in degrees. > > Gotta all use the same distance > > >> Dave and all. >> >> one degree is 1,7455 at a distance of 100, inch, meter or bananas work >> the >> same. >> >> Earlier today I was reading about the Silent single seater , they said >> zero >> or one half degree. OUT with plane in level position. >> >> Jan > > > -------- > Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada > Flying Videos and Kitfox Info > http://www.cfisher.com/ > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155228#155228 > > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 02:58:00 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement I sort of agree with Clint, but in saying that, there was this same thread while I was building and I used the method recommended by Skystar in their service bulletin to adjust my gear to a little bit out from parallel on each leg. I also had no ground handling problems nor did I get assymetrical wear on the tires. I did have a friend that early on had so much problem with his ground handling that he dumped his Model IV - onto someone else. My guess it was wheel alignment. My friends Lancair had horrible tire wear problems and a quick measurement and shims solved that. I must say here, though, that all these little beauties are home made and the factory that assembled the weldments was not really the picture of mechanical precision. For this reason, I doubt it can be said that there can never be a need for a bit of tweaking, or for that matter that since mine tracks fine your problems must be in your technique. I do agree that the worst handling airplane can be managed quite well with an expert pilot, but what's the point in that? It sort of reminds me of the local CFI that continually bragged about his expert off field landing after he ran out of gas (0n a 20 minute flight). Regarding how to determine alignment angle. The Skystar instructions, as I recall, were to drop bobs from the tail wheel mounting bolt and the midline between the wheels and mark a chock line on the floor representing the center line of the fuselage. From here it gets a little more interesting. Some will use the outside of the tire as the wheel longitudinal index points. Some will use the brake rotor with standoffs on the straight edge to clear the wheel contour. One guy I talked to would put a length of white masking tape on the exact back of the tire, mark the center of the tire and the floor directly under the axle. measure the distance beetween the two marks. Then he rolled his airplane forward until the tape and mark was exactly in front of the tire, again marking the floor under the axle. He again measured the distance between the marks. This method gives overall toe in or tow out, but doesn't identify which gearleg is the major culprit. It is an easy way to do a quick check, however, but I guess it could be used if the center line remained the centerline after the movement. When I did it, I removed the wheels and used a square against the axle. Once these measurements are determined with appropriate marks on the floor. Measure a distance forward, draw a perpendicular line across the tracks of the wheels and determine the distance between the center line and the reference line for each wheel and it will indicate toe in or out and the actual angle is easy to determine with a drawing program like Turbo Cad. Just subtract the distence between the center line and each wheel index point from each measurement and you get nice little triangles which can be drawn into the drawing program and using the angle tool, it will give the angles. The angles don't actually mean a lot unless you have the grove gear and need to buy a shim. With the tube gear the plan is to use a padded length of pipe and with the tail secured, muscle the gear leg into alighment. What I found is the the gear weldment is a pretty tough structure and the correction was solely in the axle - it bent, requiring shims (a washer or two under the brake caliper to bring that unto alignment with the axle. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "dave" Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 12:49 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement > > Jan, that was my point -- > how does everyone actually measure there toe in degrees. > > Gotta all use the same distance > > >> Dave and all. >> >> one degree is 1,7455 at a distance of 100, inch, meter or bananas work >> the >> same. >> >> Earlier today I was reading about the Silent single seater , they said >> zero >> or one half degree. OUT with plane in level position. >> >> Jan > > > -------- > Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada > Flying Videos and Kitfox Info > http://www.cfisher.com/ > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155228#155228 > > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 03:34:22 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Model 4 1050/1200 difference From: "Tom Jones" > I'm curious about the difference between the KF 4 1050 & 1200. > Can the 1050 be converted to a 1200 and if so what would it in tail. Terry, It would be quite a job to convert to a 1200. My opinion is that it would be easier to buy a flying model 4 1200 and do a paper rebuild of the 1050. Then sell the leftover plane/parts to recoup some of the cost. The following I copied from "Kitfox History" on the Kitfox factory web site, http://www.kitfoxaircraft.com/ "The Classic 4 has heavier lift struts and gear legs, as well as beefed up carry through tubes in the fuselage, to allow for a higher gross weight than the earlier Model 4 kits. The height of the vertical stabilizer and rudder was increased by 10 inches, and the rudder depth was increased by 2 inches to allow for improved handling." -------- Tom Jones Classic IV, Phase one 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp Ellensburg, WA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155250#155250 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 03:37:50 PM PST US From: "Pete Christensen" Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox training With all this talk about getting checked out in a Kitfox I am wondering how hard it is to get checked out in a Kitfox compared to say a 140 or a Citabria or a Cub or other similar types. I have found that a 140 kicks my butt but a Decathlon is a cinch. Please any of you with experience in various planes comment. Pete A wannabe ----- Original Message ----- From: "kirk hull" Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 6:46 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Georgia Members > > Most insurance will not cover giving instruction to others. They are also > usually for the named pilot only. The EAA insurance is definitely that > way > as I was going to put an instructor on my policy to instruct my father and > the insurance would not cover it. However what they don't know they don't > complain about. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of wingnut > Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 7:08 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Georgia Members > > > Out of curiosity, how would insurance work if I let you take a lesson with > my Kitfox? Anyone know? > > >> Are there any KF members around Warner Robins, Georgia that would like to > give me a lesson in their plane on presidents weekend Jan 19-21, while my > wife is running a marathon? > > > -------- > Luis Rodriguez > Model IV 1200 > Rotax 912UL > Flying Weekly > Laurens, SC (34A) > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155071#155071 > > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 03:46:08 PM PST US From: "JC Propeller Design" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement Ones when I had my car at the Swedish Car Inspection, the guy there tried to measure the toe-in on the rear wheel, with use of a libelle! was interesting to watch him for a long time before he finely come to the conclusion I had from the beginning, that it would not work out. :-) Happy New Year Jan ----- Original Message ----- From: "dave" Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 9:49 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement > > Jan, that was my point -- > how does everyone actually measure there toe in degrees. > > Gotta all use the same distance > > >> Dave and all. >> >> one degree is 1,7455 at a distance of 100, inch, meter or bananas work >> the >> same. >> >> Earlier today I was reading about the Silent single seater , they said >> zero >> or one half degree. OUT with plane in level position. >> >> Jan > > > -------- > Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada > Flying Videos and Kitfox Info > http://www.cfisher.com/ > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155228#155228 > > > __________ NOD32 2758 (20071231) Information __________ > > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 04:31:59 PM PST US From: John Alexander Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox training Heh.. I found the Cesssna 140 to be entirely mild mannered - as well as the Citabrias. Now, a PT-22 or a PA-20 Pacer... those can be pretty mean mannered on the ground. John Alexander Woodland, CA Pete Christensen wrote: > > > With all this talk about getting checked out in a Kitfox I am > wondering how hard it is to get checked out in a Kitfox compared to > say a 140 or a Citabria or a Cub or other similar types. I have found > that a 140 kicks my butt but a Decathlon is a cinch. Please any of > you with experience in various planes comment. > > Pete > A wannabe > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "kirk hull" > To: > Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 6:46 PM > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Georgia Members > > >> >> Most insurance will not cover giving instruction to others. They are >> also >> usually for the named pilot only. The EAA insurance is definitely >> that way >> as I was going to put an instructor on my policy to instruct my >> father and >> the insurance would not cover it. However what they don't know they >> don't >> complain about. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of wingnut >> Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 7:08 PM >> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox Georgia Members >> >> >> Out of curiosity, how would insurance work if I let you take a lesson >> with >> my Kitfox? Anyone know? >> >> >>> Are there any KF members around Warner Robins, Georgia that would >>> like to >> give me a lesson in their plane on presidents weekend Jan 19-21, >> while my >> wife is running a marathon? >> >> >> -------- >> Luis Rodriguez >> Model IV 1200 >> Rotax 912UL >> Flying Weekly >> Laurens, SC (34A) >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155071#155071 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 05:26:12 PM PST US From: bjones@dmv.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Autogas - color I have had alcohol (and water) phase seperate out of ethanol blended gasoline. In multiple instances my engines quit running. The the excess water joins with the alcohol and phase seperates from the gasoline resulting in a layer that would not sustain cumbustion. This can occur when too much water is present in a tank from accumulated condensation or other cause. In the presence of excess water the 10 percent ethanol in the gasoline can seperate out enmasse from the gasoline and settle to the bottom of the tank. Inherent in this process is tricky little trap for an unwary pilot. When we pull a sample from our tank we can easily mistake the alcohol-water settleout for gasoline. It looks like gas. The color difference may not be noticeable. The alcohol-water settleout is "thinner" than water and flows on a surface more like gas than water. And, because all of the ethanol tends to seperate out of the gasoline at once, the result is a large volume of alcohol in the bottom of the tank (about 10 percent of the total volume of fuel in the tank) so when we pull a sample from the sump all we get is the ethanol phase. We do not see a demarcation line between gas and water that we typically see when we pull a sample of gas that has some water contamination. I poured some of the ethanol settleout into a couple of the funnels with the fine internal mesh filters that some of us use to prevent water from getting into our tanks when we gas up from the ubiquitous 5 gallon can and was surprised to see that none of the funnels did not prevent the alcohol-water settleout from passing thru. I had discussions with technical folks from our multistate gasoline distribution plant and was impressed with the amount of problems they were having with alcohol - gasoline phase seperation, customer and gas station problems as well as the remarkable steps they had to take to minimize settleout within their distribution network. One question that I asked repeatedly without getting a solid answer was, "If settleout is close to occuring, can it be triggered in flight as we go to altitude and outside air temperatures get colder?" Many physical and chemical equalibria shift with temperature change as the only variable. BJ uoting dave : > > No problem Larry, > > I would like to see some evidence of why not to use ethanol gas before i try > to agree with it. > > Trust me I hate getting anything rammed down my throat by a beuacrat, BUT I > have no issues with ethanol gas yet and I use thousands of gallons of it this > year in many application from different 2 strokes to industrial 4 strokes to > older and newer 4 stroke engines,4 bangers, v6 , v 8 and in-line 6 engines. > Never had any issues yet. > > Certainly I am not worried about it from in-line. > > -------- > Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada > Flying Videos and Kitfox Info > http://www.cfisher.com/ > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155215#155215 > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------ This message was sent using Delmarva Online's Webmail. http://www.dmv.com/ ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 05:38:48 PM PST US From: Sbennett3@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Terry, I own one of the latter 4-1050's. I understand that you can upgrade the wing spars to the larger thicker ones, but the fuselage is built with thicker chrom moly in the main structure of the 1200. I was told that theres no way to make it a 4-1200. Steve Bennett (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 05:38:50 PM PST US From: "steve eccles" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fox5flyer Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 6:20 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement Steve, with all due respect, this is incorrect and this type of setup will cause bent airplanes. It might be good for cars, but not airplanes. Picture yourself with a small crosswind that causes you to veer slightly to the right. The inside wheel is already turned left which will exacerbate the turn. The more toe-in the more squirrely the airplane will be. If, when level, the airplane has toe-in it will have more in the three point attitude which partly why people lose control as they start to let the tail down from the two point attitude. Add to this the loss of airflow over the rudder and you have a ground loop. The best is slightly toe-out when in level attitude. This will put the wheels in a neutral attitude when in three point. Of course, there are lots of airplanes out there with a little toe-in and some with more than a little, and they are flyable, but are more difficult to keep straight when in three point, especially when a swerve starts. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT "Nothing will ever be attempted, if all possible objections must first be overcome".- Samuel Johnson > > Gary > I think that the toe out situation is far worse than the toe in .Just my > .02 > Steve > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan > Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 4:20 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Bungee replacement > > > At 07:13 AM 12/30/2007, you wrote: >>I found out yesterday that I have some gear misalignment. As I push >>the aircraft into the hanger the gear droops about 1 1/2 inch from >>the stops and as I go forward about 15 ft it tightens up against the >>stops. > > Be careful with this. If you have any camber, as I do, there will > always be "apparent" toe in when in a three point attitude. (Camber > is when the bottoms of the tires are closer together than the tops.) > If you picture rotating the aircraft so it points straight up and > then setting the tires on a table, you'll see the maximum extreme of > the toe in associated with camber. Even though it's much less in a > three point it's still there. (Toe-in due to camber will > theoretically be zero when the fuselage is horizontal.) > > My plane has a bunch of camber resulting in about 2.5 degrees of > toe-in in a three point attitude and about 1 1/4 degrees when the > fuselage is horizontal. I have no problem with this configuration > other than that I have to replace my tires after 200 hours and ? > landings. I think the reason for my camber and toe-in is that when > the plane hits hard and the camber goes negative then the toe-in will > go to zero. Just a theory. (The original builder built beefy new tube > gear with more camber and a little toe-in.) > > You'll see many toe-in arguments in the archives. I personally > believe toe-out is theoretically better, but as you can see I've been > flying with toed-in tube gear and have had virtually no problems in a > wide variety of conditions: high speed, low speed, wheelies, > three-point, crosswind, pavement, dirt, and mud. Go figure. > > > Guy Buchanan > San Diego, CA > K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. > > > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 05:40:12 PM PST US From: "Roger McConnell" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Kitfox training Pete, I can only comment on transitioning from a C152 to a Model 7. I found the Model 7 to be more nimble and more responsive. This may in part be do to the fact that the first time I flew my plane it was about a 50 degree day cool and dry. But the plane was very predictable and was not a problem at all. But sense both planes are tri-gear. How much easier can it get. Roger McConnell, Duncan, OK Model 7 Trigear, Rotax 912uls Flying sense Jan. 06 -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete Christensen Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 5:37 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox training With all this talk about getting checked out in a Kitfox I am wondering how hard it is to get checked out in a Kitfox compared to say a 140 or a Citabria or a Cub or other similar types. I have found that a 140 kicks my butt but a Decathlon is a cinch. Please any of you with experience in various planes comment. Pete A wannabe > > > ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 05:40:44 PM PST US From: John Alexander Subject: Kitfox-List: Rudder trim Has anyone implemented cockpit adjustable rudder trim on the Kitfox? If so, how did you go about it. Happy New Year to everyone. John Alexander Woodland, CA ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 05:53:37 PM PST US From: "steve eccles" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement Gary In my experience with aircraft and autos when you speak of toe in you are talking about 1/16 of an inch toe in when the toe is out the wheels get really squirley once the aircraft moves forward , In my experience as an A&P mechanic to much of either on will cause a handling problem, you also need to keep in mind that the friction of the wheels against the ground will pull them rearward and if you have a little toe in they will be closer to neutral , but with a toe out situation they will have a negative number, my model 5 has about 1/16 inch toe in and handles great I have around 600hrs on it and the tires show very little wear Like I said just my .02 -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fox5flyer Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 6:20 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement Steve, with all due respect, this is incorrect and this type of setup will cause bent airplanes. It might be good for cars, but not airplanes. Picture yourself with a small crosswind that causes you to veer slightly to the right. The inside wheel is already turned left which will exacerbate the turn. The more toe-in the more squirrely the airplane will be. If, when level, the airplane has toe-in it will have more in the three point attitude which partly why people lose control as they start to let the tail down from the two point attitude. Add to this the loss of airflow over the rudder and you have a ground loop. The best is slightly toe-out when in level attitude. This will put the wheels in a neutral attitude when in three point. Of course, there are lots of airplanes out there with a little toe-in and some with more than a little, and they are flyable, but are more difficult to keep straight when in three point, especially when a swerve starts. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT "Nothing will ever be attempted, if all possible objections must first be overcome".- Samuel Johnson > > Gary > I think that the toe out situation is far worse than the toe in .Just my > .02 > Steve > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan > Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 4:20 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Bungee replacement > > > At 07:13 AM 12/30/2007, you wrote: >>I found out yesterday that I have some gear misalignment. As I push >>the aircraft into the hanger the gear droops about 1 1/2 inch from >>the stops and as I go forward about 15 ft it tightens up against the >>stops. > > Be careful with this. If you have any camber, as I do, there will > always be "apparent" toe in when in a three point attitude. (Camber > is when the bottoms of the tires are closer together than the tops.) > If you picture rotating the aircraft so it points straight up and > then setting the tires on a table, you'll see the maximum extreme of > the toe in associated with camber. Even though it's much less in a > three point it's still there. (Toe-in due to camber will > theoretically be zero when the fuselage is horizontal.) > > My plane has a bunch of camber resulting in about 2.5 degrees of > toe-in in a three point attitude and about 1 1/4 degrees when the > fuselage is horizontal. I have no problem with this configuration > other than that I have to replace my tires after 200 hours and ? > landings. I think the reason for my camber and toe-in is that when > the plane hits hard and the camber goes negative then the toe-in will > go to zero. Just a theory. (The original builder built beefy new tube > gear with more camber and a little toe-in.) > > You'll see many toe-in arguments in the archives. I personally > believe toe-out is theoretically better, but as you can see I've been > flying with toed-in tube gear and have had virtually no problems in a > wide variety of conditions: high speed, low speed, wheelies, > three-point, crosswind, pavement, dirt, and mud. Go figure. > > > Guy Buchanan > San Diego, CA > K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. > > > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 06:11:37 PM PST US From: "steve eccles" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement everyone , I'm not wanting to argue about the toe in or out I'm just stating what worked for me. since you are all the manufactures you can do whatever you want and that is the GREAT part of building your own aircraft. the Kitfox is a very well designd aircraft and fits the homebuilder very well Steve -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve eccles Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 7:53 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement Gary In my experience with aircraft and autos when you speak of toe in you are talking about 1/16 of an inch toe in when the toe is out the wheels get really squirley once the aircraft moves forward , In my experience as an A&P mechanic to much of either on will cause a handling problem, you also need to keep in mind that the friction of the wheels against the ground will pull them rearward and if you have a little toe in they will be closer to neutral , but with a toe out situation they will have a negative number, my model 5 has about 1/16 inch toe in and handles great I have around 600hrs on it and the tires show very little wear Like I said just my .02 -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fox5flyer Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 6:20 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement Steve, with all due respect, this is incorrect and this type of setup will cause bent airplanes. It might be good for cars, but not airplanes. Picture yourself with a small crosswind that causes you to veer slightly to the right. The inside wheel is already turned left which will exacerbate the turn. The more toe-in the more squirrely the airplane will be. If, when level, the airplane has toe-in it will have more in the three point attitude which partly why people lose control as they start to let the tail down from the two point attitude. Add to this the loss of airflow over the rudder and you have a ground loop. The best is slightly toe-out when in level attitude. This will put the wheels in a neutral attitude when in three point. Of course, there are lots of airplanes out there with a little toe-in and some with more than a little, and they are flyable, but are more difficult to keep straight when in three point, especially when a swerve starts. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT "Nothing will ever be attempted, if all possible objections must first be overcome".- Samuel Johnson > > Gary > I think that the toe out situation is far worse than the toe in .Just my > .02 > Steve > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan > Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 4:20 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Bungee replacement > > > At 07:13 AM 12/30/2007, you wrote: >>I found out yesterday that I have some gear misalignment. As I push >>the aircraft into the hanger the gear droops about 1 1/2 inch from >>the stops and as I go forward about 15 ft it tightens up against the >>stops. > > Be careful with this. If you have any camber, as I do, there will > always be "apparent" toe in when in a three point attitude. (Camber > is when the bottoms of the tires are closer together than the tops.) > If you picture rotating the aircraft so it points straight up and > then setting the tires on a table, you'll see the maximum extreme of > the toe in associated with camber. Even though it's much less in a > three point it's still there. (Toe-in due to camber will > theoretically be zero when the fuselage is horizontal.) > > My plane has a bunch of camber resulting in about 2.5 degrees of > toe-in in a three point attitude and about 1 1/4 degrees when the > fuselage is horizontal. I have no problem with this configuration > other than that I have to replace my tires after 200 hours and ? > landings. I think the reason for my camber and toe-in is that when > the plane hits hard and the camber goes negative then the toe-in will > go to zero. Just a theory. (The original builder built beefy new tube > gear with more camber and a little toe-in.) > > You'll see many toe-in arguments in the archives. I personally > believe toe-out is theoretically better, but as you can see I've been > flying with toed-in tube gear and have had virtually no problems in a > wide variety of conditions: high speed, low speed, wheelies, > three-point, crosswind, pavement, dirt, and mud. Go figure. > > > Guy Buchanan > San Diego, CA > K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. > > > ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 06:25:55 PM PST US From: Michael Gibbs Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox training Pete asks: >With all this talk about getting checked out in a Kitfox I am >wondering how hard it is to get checked out in a Kitfox compared to >say a 140 or a Citabria or a Cub or other similar types. I got my tail wheel endorsement in a 1946 Aeronca Chief. I found tail wheel Kitfoxes MUCH easier to handle on the ground than the Aeronca. That said, I later found out that the rudder travel on this particular Chief was incorrectly set and it only had about half throw in one direction. Mike G. N728KF Phoenix, AZ ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 06:25:56 PM PST US From: 84KF Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Toe-in, was Bungee replacement All this about alignment.... I assume you all have the main gear tires sitting on 'grease plates' at a loaded weight when you start taking measurements. Hmmm.....? > ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 07:04:12 PM PST US From: Steve Shinabery Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: News years eve pipc Hi Dave,,Nice pic.Have a happy new year to you Dave..Steve Shinabery N554KF KF2 582 for now dave wrote: > > Just a pic for you not flying today. > 4500' temp 20F > coming back down through the cloud deck. > > -------- > Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada > Flying Videos and Kitfox Info > http://www.cfisher.com/ > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155227#155227 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/dec31_013_139.jpg > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.