---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 01/06/08: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:05 AM - Re: This feud isn't pretty! (Michael Gibbs) 2. 01:50 AM - Re: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! (Michel Verheughe) 3. 05:57 AM - Re: This feud isn't pretty! (fox5flyer) 4. 08:05 AM - This feud isn't pretty! It's over. (Rexster) 5. 08:18 AM - Re: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! (Guy Buchanan) 6. 09:00 AM - Re: This feud isn't pretty! It's over. (Dan Billingsley) 7. 11:52 AM - Re: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! (Michel Verheughe) 8. 01:06 PM - Rule breakers Was: Re: This feud isn't pretty! (kitfoxmike) 9. 02:16 PM - Re: Rule breakers Was: Re: This feud isn't pretty! (Guy Buchanan) 10. 04:43 PM - KF-1 tail wheel and door frames (AKFLYERBOB) 11. 05:14 PM - Re: KF-1 tail wheel and door frames (Dee Young) 12. 05:33 PM - Vortex generators (Clint Bazzill) 13. 08:12 PM - Kitfox construction (Dee Young) 14. 10:17 PM - (Clint Bazzill) 15. 11:36 PM - Reality check, it is time (A Smith) 16. 11:47 PM - Re: Kitfox construction (A Smith) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:05:11 AM PST US From: Michael Gibbs Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: This feud isn't pretty! Rick sez: >...as a fellow aviator, I don't want to see our privileges (not >rights) jeopardized... Only government bureaucrats (and former bureaucrats) think they are empowered to issue "privileges". :-) Minor quibbles aside, there's a lot of wisdom in your post, Rick, particularly with respect to the attitude an aviator should maintain while interacting with FAA officials. I am continually amazed at the number of pilots that are happy to participate in arguments with controllers on the radio. The best that could possibly be achieved is a stalemate and the worst would be some type of enforcement action. Swallowing your pride might be all it takes to put an end to the problem and yet many just can't seem to do it. Maybe pilot training should include a short session on diplomacy. :-) Mike G. N728KF Phoenix, AZ ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:50:13 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! On Jan 6, 2008, at 6:21 AM, av8rps wrote: > How many of the competitve airplanes have the ever so sweet and nimble > handling the Kitfox has? I don't know, Paul, I haven't been flying very much other planes than my Kitfox. What I know, though, is that the market here is changing for the carbon-fibre water-drop speed machines. My former instructor just bought a WT-9 Dynamic. See the link: http://web.lightsportaviation.se/index.php? option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1&lang=en Next summer, he intends to fly Norway-Spain non-stop in ten hours. He flies about twice as fast as me in my Kitfox. Speed seems to be the argument here. I have seen this in my long experience with sailing and yachting in general: The search for the extra knot of speed. But why? Either the pleasure is to get there (on the water or in the air) or to be there. If the latter then why not fly an airliner? It's surely faster! I love my Kitfox because ... it feels safe, simple and ... it's mine. I have seen women prettier than my wife but I won't change wife for that. I am fortunate to be happy with what I have. There is nothing I am missing with my Kitfox. Cheers, Michel Verheughe Norway Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:57:15 AM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: This feud isn't pretty! Excellent post Rick. It's good to hear from someone who speaks with experience from being close to the action. My purpose in writing this is to give a short blurb on my own thoughts and experiences regarding the FAA, mostly from the air traffic control side. I first earned my private license in early 1970, then commercial sometime in 1971, while holding down an air traffic control (ATC) job that I retired from in 1988. I had plenty of interaction with FAA in various assignments, including Seattle ARTCC. As a pilot or ATC at no time was I ever unnecessarily hassled about anything. Every fed that I came into contact with was courteous, knowledgeable, and helpful. I, like a lot of others on this list, have spent my fair share of time hanging around airports, whether it was flying, working on my airplane, attending get-togethers, or just sitting around in the terminal having coffee listening to and participating in the conversations. Lots of camaraderie. However, one thing that always bothered me was the occasional person who would take every opportunity to hammer the FAA about something. Usually it was things like "I never talk to air traffic control", then go on about some anecdotal story picked up about somebody being vectored out of their way near a busy airport, or something along that level. There are also those who vehemently make it known how they refuse to use their radios or transponders around congested areas, preferring to fly right through without talking to ATC. Their reasons are usually something like "I don't need the hassle of the feds", or something along that line. This always makes me cringe. I could post a lot of the usual stories, but they never seem to change much, and always come from the same types of people. It was difficult for me to keep quiet while hearing this sort of talk (still is) because I knew most of it was embellished BS (hangar talk). Unfortunately, there are often very naive and inexperienced pilots around who are listening and, like sponges, they soak it right up and it later becomes very difficult to change their minds about it. "First learned is best learned". Sure, like anything else, the FAA is not perfect. Unfortunately, there are the occasional problems within the FAA like the Bob Hoover debacle, but they are rare. Everyone of us pays the taxes that puts ATC in place and pays the wages of those guys and gals who are trying to do their job which is providing a safe and orderly flow of traffic. They are highly trained and with few exceptions, are very capable and willing to help. Personally, I use ATC at every opportunity for flight following. I don't fly IMC and I don't file IFR, but I definitely like to know that I am being seen on radar by someone who has the ability to keep me safe from other pilots out there who may not be able to see me. One big plus for flight following that is very important to me is that if I have a problem that may threaten continued flight, I already have instant contact with ATC who knows exactly where I am and should I have to make an emergency landing, rescue would be quick. I'm sure there will be some "yeah, but..." replies and that is OK, but if this helps to change the mindset of at least one person, I'm satisfied. Now, on a Kitfox note, I'll be bringing my airplane down to the shop today to start the annual. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT "Nothing will ever be attempted, if all possible objections must first be overcome".- Samuel Johnson Guys/Gals, Excuse the previous blank email, somehow my computer decided it was time to send it out. I'm innocent. I didn't even touch a key, go figure. I did want to mention something that might be helpful to all of us. I retired from the FAA in 1997 and I held a number of relatively high positions on the engineering side of the Agency. I did work a lot with flight standards folks, the regulators of aviation. I can say this about them, they all (with very few exceptions) got into the FAA because they loved aviation. Some were always GA and some a combination of military and GA, but all like their jobs, be they pilots or mechanics. The inspectors get very regimented training on the rules before they interface with the public. They all are serious about safety and their main mission is to protect the ' innocent public' and then the aviators. Many of them would do anything to avoid citing a pilot or a technicality because it means a lot of paperwork. Yes, there are some that look forward to the opportunity to 'get someone', but the management in HQ tries to not let that happen. For instance, at AirVenture there can be 20 or 30 inspectors walking around and they are trained to not hassle the pilots, but to work with the person if they see a problem. You probably have never even noticed many of them when they are working on the ramp, unless they're wearing an FAA name tag or shirt. Given all this, when someone brings a problem to their attention, they cannot ignore it. They are obligated to follow through and research the complaint. Actually, that's what we, as taxpayers, expect from our government employees. That being said, when we want something from the FAA don't we expect them to work hard and get an answer in a reasonable time? The real problem we face is how to interact with the inspector. If we show a compliant attitude (do not read this as confessing to breaking a rule - get an attorney before you even consider doing that) and strive for a safety related outcome, it is possible to get off with just a warning, either verbally or written. Once you do something that causes the inspector to be concerned and he forwards his findings to the attorneys at FAA, all bets are off. Attorneys work in a world of rules and sanctions. Once they get the case they will do their attorney thing. It then becomes difficult to get a compromise without professional (your attorney) help. If you have a problem with a fellow aviator, confront him or her directly and try to work it out. If you are doing something 'unexpected' or just plain wrong and someone confronts you, explain it, accept the responsibility, or if you choose to deny it, or do whatever you think is appropriate, expect the FAA to come ask when the person you blew off decides to call the feds. When you do that, at least you now know the process you are about to enter. Remember, the rules will be enforced, right or wrong (I mean whether the rule is right or wrong). if you don't like the rules, petition the Agency to change it. The FAA is obligated to address that request to. However,as we always say, the rules have been written, for the most part, in the blood of the aviators who have gone west before us. They aren't that onerous, they are our government's best attempt to draw the limits on what is safe. Just don't place yourself in a position that will allow the FAA inspector to interpret the rules. English is a tough language and different words can be interpreted in different ways. Enter the lawyers. This is where they make their careers. Don't give these folks the opportunity to get awards, for getting you. I apologize for going on, but as a fellow aviator, I don't want to see our privileges (not rights) jeopardized by some of us operating as 'cowboys' and stirring up the public (or other aviators) who then think they have to save the world and go to the FAA. Fly safe! Rick Weiss Kitfox Series V Speedster (soon to fly - I hope) Daytona Beach ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:05:35 AM PST US From: "Rexster" Subject: Kitfox-List: This feud isn't pretty! It's over. Deke and Rick, Both of you make some excellent points here and your positions are wel l written. As a high school teacher for the past 33 years, I see all kin ds of students and get to see some patterns. There are some great kids a round who I can predict are on their ways to happy and successful career s and lives. There are other kids who don't seem to understand that you can have a good time on evenings and weekends without doing things that are wrong. These are the kids who state that they "don't like cops" and feel that cops are out to get them.Their stories indicate that they have n't learned how to enjoy life without being on the edge of breaking the law and then feel like the police are out to hassle them. My challange t o them and all the students is to have a good time in life while always making sure that their pleasure doesn't come at anyone else's expense. All of this transfers right over to us as pilots. I fly a lot. I'm very involved with my EAA Chapter here in southeast Michigan and we end up in volved with many airports and sometimes the FAA for Young Eagle flights and other activities. I'm thrilled that they are there and make sure tha t they are happy we are there doing what we do. At no time have we ever been hassled by the FAA, a controller, airport managers, the neighboring public or anybody else. I think that anybody who feels they're not able to enjoy life or aviation without being hassled by the cops or FAA simp ly hasn't figured out how to have a good time without it being at other people's expense. At school, we call it "people skills". It goes a long way in life. Enjoy, Rex Phelps / Model 3 / 912UL / Warp / Michigan -- "fox5flyer" wrote: Excellent post Rick. It's good to hear from someone who speaks with exp erience from being close to the action. My purpose in writing this is t o give a short blurb on my own thoughts and experiences regarding the FA A, mostly from the air traffic control side. I first earned my private license in early 1970, then commercial sometime in 1971, while holding d own an air traffic control (ATC) job that I retired from in 1988. I had plenty of interaction with FAA in various assignments, including Seattl e ARTCC. As a pilot or ATC at no time was I ever unnecessarily hassled about anything. Every fed that I came into contact with was courteous, knowledgeable, and helpful. I, like a lot of others on this list, have spent my fair share of time hanging around airports, whether it was flyi ng, working on my airplane, attending get-togethers, or just sitting ar ound in the terminal having coffee listening to and participating in the conversations. Lots of camaraderie. However, one thing that always bo thered me was the occasional person who would take every opportunity to hammer the FAA about something. Usually it was things like "I never tal k to air traffic control", then go on about some anecdotal story picked up about somebody being vectored out of their way near a busy airport, o r something along that level. There are also those who vehemently make it known how they refuse to use their radios or transponders around cong ested areas, preferring to fly right through without talking to ATC. Th eir reasons are usually something like "I don't need the hassle of the f eds", or something along that line. This always makes me cringe. I cou ld post a lot of the usual stories, but they never seem to change much, and always come from the same types of people. It was difficult for me to keep quiet while hearing this sort of talk (still is) because I knew most of it was embellished BS (hangar talk). Unfortunately, there are often very naive and inexperienced pilots around who are listening and, like sponges, they soak it right up and it later becomes very difficult to change their minds about it. "First learned is best learned". Sure , like anything else, the FAA is not perfect. Unfortunately, there are the occasional problems within the FAA like the Bob Hoover debacle, but they are rare. Everyone of us pays the taxes that puts ATC in place an d pays the wages of those guys and gals who are trying to do their job w hich is providing a safe and orderly flow of traffic. They are highly t rained and with few exceptions, are very capable and willing to help. P ersonally, I use ATC at every opportunity for flight following. I don't fly IMC and I don't file IFR, but I definitely like to know that I am b eing seen on radar by someone who has the ability to keep me safe from o ther pilots out there who may not be able to see me. One big plus for f light following that is very important to me is that if I have a problem that may threaten continued flight, I already have instant contact with ATC who knows exactly where I am and should I have to make an emergency landing, rescue would be quick.I'm sure there will be some "yeah, but.. ." replies and that is OK, but if this helps to change the mindset of at least one person, I'm satisfied.Now, on a Kitfox note, I'll be bringing my airplane down to the shop today to start the annual.Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT "Nothing will ever be attempted, if all possible objections must first b e overcome".- Samuel Johnson Guys/Gals, Excuse the previous blank email, somehow my computer decided it was time to send it out. I'm innocent. I didn't even touch a key, go figure. I did want to mention something t hat might be helpful to all of us. I retired from the FAA in 1997 and I held a number of relatively high positions on the engineering side of t he Agency. I did work a lot with flight standards folks, the regulators of aviation. I can say this about them, they all (with very few except ions) got into the FAA because they loved aviation. Some were always GA and some a combination of military and GA, but all like their jobs, be they pilots or mechanics. The inspectors get very regimented training on the rules before they interface with the public. They all are serious about safety and their main mission is to protect the ' innocent public' and then the aviators. Many of them would do anything to avoid citing a pilot or a technicality because it means a lot of paperwork. Yes, the re are some that look forward to the opportunity to 'get someone', but t he management in HQ tries to not let that happen. For instance, at AirV enture there can be 20 or 30 inspectors walking around and they are trai ned to not hassle the pilots, but to work with the person if they see a problem. You probably have never even noticed many of them when they ar e working on the ramp, unless they're wearing an FAA name tag or shirt. Given all this, when someone brings a problem to their attention, they c annot ignore it. They are obligated to follow through and research the complaint. Actually, that's what we, as taxpayers, expect from our gove rnment employees. That being said, when we want something from the FAA don't we expect them to work hard and get an answer in a reasonable time ? The real problem we face is how to interact with the inspector. If we show a compliant attitude (do not read this as confessing to breaking a rule - get an attorney before you even consider doing that) and strive for a safety related outcome, it is possible to get off with just a warn ing, either verbally or written. Once you do something that causes the inspector to be concerned and he forwards his findings to the attorneys at FAA, all bets are off. Attorneys work in a world of rules and sancti ons. Once they get the case they will do their attorney thing. It then becomes difficult to get a compromise without professional (your attorn ey) help. If you have a problem with a fellow aviator, confront him or h er directly and try to work it out. If you are doing something 'unexpec ted' or just plain wrong and someone confronts you, explain it, accept t he responsibility, or if you choose to deny it, or do whatever you think is appropriate, expect the FAA to come ask when the person you blew off decides to call the feds. When you do that, at least you now know the p rocess you are about to enter. Remember, the rules will be enforced, ri ght or wrong (I mean whether the rule is right or wrong). if you don't like the rules, petition the Agency to change it. The FAA is obligated to address that request to. However,as we always say, the rules have be en written, for the most part, in the blood of the aviators who have gon e west before us. They aren't that onerous, they are our government's b est attempt to draw the limits on what is safe. Just don't place yourse lf in a position that will allow the FAA inspector to interpret the rule s. English is a tough language and different words can be interpreted i n different ways. Enter the lawyers. This is where they make their car eers. Don't give these folks the opportunity to get awards, for getting you. I apologize for going on, but as a fellow aviator, I don't want to see our privileges (not rights) jeopardized by some of us operating as 'cowboys' and stirring up the public (or other aviators) who then thi nk they have to save the world and go to the FAA. Fly safe! Rick WeissK itfox Series V Speedster (soon to fly - I hope)Daytona Beach Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. hr ef="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronh ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.comhref="h ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== = _____________________________________________________________ Find custom shirts that suit you to a "t"! Click now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2121/fc/Ioyw6i3nPowfsSuVu1iD3UMXkotO BGg0PJmUgfkmOurr25PlcLSNgf/ ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:18:53 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! At 01:47 AM 1/6/2008, you wrote: >Next summer, he intends to fly Norway-Spain non-stop in ten hours. He >flies about twice as fast as me in my Kitfox. Speed seems to be the >argument here. Michel, Interesting enough, speed is all the rage here amongst the Kitfox community; lots of work on drag reduction and increased horsepower. It's unfortunate since I'm guessing it's only a matter of time before some start trading their Kitfoxes in for the fast-glass machines. Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:00:21 AM PST US From: Dan Billingsley Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: This feud isn't pretty! It's over. Rex, Well said...From one high school teacher to another. Dan B Mesa, AZ KF-IV, 912s, 314DW Rexster wrote: Deke and Rick, Both of you make some excellent points here and your positions are well written. As a high school teacher for the past 33 years, I see all kinds of students and get to see some patterns. There are some great kids around who I can predict are on their ways to happy and successful careers and lives. There are other kids who don't seem to understand that you can have a good time on evenings and weekends without doing things that are wrong. These are the kids who state that they "don't like cops" and feel that cops are out to get them.Their stories indicate that they haven't learned how to enjoy life without being on the edge of breaking the law and then feel like the police are out to hassle them. My challange to them and all the students is to have a good time in life while always making sure that their pleasure doesn't come at anyone else's expense. All of this transfers right over to us as pilots. I fly a lot. I'm very involved with my EAA Chapter here in southeast Michigan and we end up involved with many airports and sometimes the FAA for Young Eagle flights and other activities. I'm thrilled that they are there and make sure that they are happy we are there doing what we do. At no time have we ever been hassled by the FAA, a controller, airport managers, the neighboring public or anybody else. I think that anybody who feels they're not able to enjoy life or aviation without being hassled by the cops or FAA simply hasn't figured out how to have a good time without it being at other people's expense. At school, we call it "people skills". It goes a long way in life. Enjoy, Rex Phelps / Model 3 / 912UL / Warp / Michigan -- "fox5flyer" wrote: Excellent post Rick. It's good to hear from someone who speaks with experience from being close to the action. My purpose in writing this is to give a short blurb on my own thoughts and experiences regarding the FAA, mostly from the air traffic control side. I first earned my private license in early 1970, then commercial sometime in 1971, while holding down an air traffic control (ATC) job that I retired from in 1988. I had plenty of interaction with FAA in various assignments, including Seattle ARTCC. As a pilot or ATC at no time was I ever unnecessarily hassled about anything. Every fed that I came into contact with was courteous, knowledgeable, and helpful. I, like a lot of others on this list, have spent my fair share of time hanging around airports, whether it was flying, working on my airplane, attending get-togethers, or just sitting around in the terminal having coffee listening to and participating in the conversations. Lots of camaraderie. However, one thing that always bothered me was the occasional person who would take every opportunity to hammer the FAA about something. Usually it was things like "I never talk to air traffic control", then go on about some anecdotal story picked up about somebody being vectored out of their way near a busy airport, or something along that level. There are also those who vehemently make it known how they refuse to use their radios or transponders around congested areas, preferring to fly right through without talking to ATC. Their reasons are usually something like "I don't need the hassle of the feds", or something along that line. This always makes me cringe. I could post a lot of the usual stories, but they never seem to change much, and always come from the same types of people. It was difficult for me to keep quiet while hearing this sort of talk (still is) because I knew most of it was embellished BS (hangar talk). Unfortunately, there are often very naive and inexperienced pilots around who are listening and, like sponges, they soak it right up and it later becomes very difficult to change their minds about it. "First learned is best learned". Sure, like anything else, the FAA is not perfect. Unfortunately, there are the occasional problems within the FAA like the Bob Hoover debacle, but they are rare. Everyone of us pays the taxes that puts ATC in place and pays the wages of those guys and gals who are trying to do their job which is providing a safe and orderly flow of traffic. They are highly trained and with few exceptions, are very capable and willing to help. Personally, I use ATC at every opportunity for flight following. I don't fly IMC and I don't file IFR, but I definitely like to know that I am being seen on radar by someone who has the ability to keep me safe from other pilots out there who may not be able to see me. One big plus for flight following that is very important to me is that if I have a problem that may threaten continued flight, I already have instant contact with ATC who knows exactly where I am and should I have to make an emergency landing, rescue would be quick. I'm sure there will be some "yeah, but..." replies and that is OK, but if this helps to change the mindset of at least one person, I'm satisfied. Now, on a Kitfox note, I'll be bringing my airplane down to the shop today to start the annual. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT "Nothing will ever be attempted, if all possible objections must first be overcome".- Samuel Johnson Guys/Gals, Excuse the previous blank email, somehow my computer decided it was time to send it out. I'm innocent. I didn't even touch a key, go figure. I did want to mention something that might be helpful to all of us. I retired from the FAA in 1997 and I held a number of relatively high positions on the engineering side of the Agency. I did work a lot with flight standards folks, the regulators of aviation. I can say this about them, they all (with very few exceptions) got into the FAA because they loved aviation. Some were always GA and some a combination of military and GA, but all like their jobs, be they pilots or mechanics. The inspectors get very regimented training on the rules before they interface with the public. They all are serious about safety and their main mission is to protect the ' innocent public' and then the aviators. Many of them would do anything to avoid citing a pilot or a technicality because it means a lot of paperwork. Yes, there are some that look forward to the opportunity to 'get someone', but the management in HQ tries to not let that happen. For instance, at AirVenture there can be 20 or 30 inspectors walking around and they are trained to not hassle the pilots, but to work with the person if they see a problem. You probably have never even noticed many of them when they are working on the ramp, unless they're wearing an FAA name tag or shirt. Given all this, when someone brings a problem to their attention, they cannot ignore it. They are obligated to follow through and research the complaint. Actually, that's what we, as taxpayers, expect from our government employees. That being said, when we want something from the FAA don't we expect them to work hard and get an answer in a reasonable time? The real problem we face is how to interact with the inspector. If we show a compliant attitude (do not read this as confessing to breaking a rule - get an attorney before you even consider doing that) and strive for a safety related outcome, it is possible to get off with just a warning, either verbally or written. Once you do something that causes the inspector to be concerned and he forwards his findings to the attorneys at FAA, all bets are off. Attorneys work in a world of rules and sanctions. Once they get the case they will do their attorney thing. It then becomes difficult to get a compromise without professional (your attorney) help. If you have a problem with a fellow aviator, confront him or her directly and try to work it out. If you are doing something 'unexpected' or just plain wrong and someone confronts you, explain it, accept the responsibility, or if you choose to deny it, or do whatever you think is appropriate, expect the FAA to come ask when the person you blew off decides to call the feds. When you do that, at least you now know the process you are about to enter. Remember, the rules will be enforced, right or wrong (I mean whether the rule is right or wrong). if you don't like the rules, petition the Agency to change it. The FAA is obligated to address that request to. However,as we always say, the rules have been written, for the most part, in the blood of the aviators who have gone west before us. They aren't that onerous, they are our government's best attempt to draw the limits on what is safe. Just don't place yourself in a position that will allow the FAA inspector to interpret the rules. English is a tough language and different words can be interpreted in different ways. Enter the lawyers. This is where they make their careers. Don't give these folks the opportunity to get awards, for getting you. I apologize for going on, but as a fellow aviator, I don't want to see our privileges (not rights) jeopardized by some of us operating as 'cowboys' and stirring up the public (or other aviators) who then think they have to save the world and go to the FAA. Fly safe! Rick Weiss Kitfox Series V Speedster (soon to fly - I hope) Daytona Beach --------------------------------- Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ==================================== ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List ==================================== tronics.com ==================================== www.matronics.com/contribution ==================================== _____________________________________________________________ Find custom shirts that suit you to a "t"! Click now! ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:52:50 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! On Jan 6, 2008, at 4:57 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote: > Interesting enough, speed is all the rage here amongst the Kitfox > community; lots of work on drag reduction and increased horsepower. I understand, Guy. Indeed, it may sound silly to use extra fuel to push a draggy object through the air. When I decided to get a pilot license then buy an aircraft, I had no prior knowledge of aviation apart from my father, the airman of my childhood. To me, it made sense (and still does!) that a recreational aircraft must be simple and reliable. We have a Rutan Defiant, here at our airfield. Nice plane; but not my cup of tea. My Kitfox taildragger with a air-cooled boxer Jabiru is ancient and well-proven technology. For the pleasure of being up there, feeling free like a bird, I don't need anything more. I think there will always be a market for that kind of aircraft; just as people will continue to sail, ski, horse ride or use radio-telegraphy; anachronisms certainly, but enjoyable ones. It will be a smaller market, though, but a nice one. Cheers, Michel Verheughe Norway Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:06:25 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Rule breakers Was: Re: This feud isn't pretty! From: "kitfoxmike" Guy Buchanan wrote: > At 07:13 AM 1/5/2008, you wrote: > > > 5 days later I get a letter from the airport manager stating that > > there were multiple complaints about me doing erratic flying at > > their airport and if it continues they will turn me into the > > FSDO. I did nothing wrong, but somebody on the ground didn't like > > my flying and got with his friends and they complained to the airport manager. > > > > > > Mike, > Thank you, you have made my point. Whatever you were doing > scared the groundlings enough to complain. Yes, there are the > occasional nut-cases sitting at the ends of runways, but they are > usually notorious and are ignored by airport managers and the local > FAA. Yet you said you were doing something new and that there were > multiple complaints. And interestingly enough these complaints were > sufficient to make the airport manager threaten you, either because > of their nature, or because the status of who made them. As a result > you have jeopardized that airport's future, and put yet another nail > in the coffin of general aviation. What happened? Let's address the > possibilities: > > 1. You were doing something illegal and unsafe. Is any discussion necessary? > > 2. You were doing something legal and unsafe. Discussion? > > 3. You were doing something illegal and safe. The rules we fly by are > designed, in large part, to keep everyone safe. You and I both know > it is possible to fly outside the rules and be perfectly safe. What's > the point? Some of the rules are designed to give the groundlings a > perception of safety, to keep us out of the public eye. You and I > both know we can fly within 50' of anything and anybody in perfect > safety, yet it scares the crap out of the un-informed when we do it. > Thus the rule that says stay 500' away from anything that might > contain a human. (My paraphrase.) There are others. (Do we really > need 1000' AGL pattern altitudes? What's wrong with flying under > bridges? Why can't we land on public property in CA where there are > huge dry lake beds? Why can't we land on roads?) > > 4. You were doing something legal and safe. If this is the case you > should seriously consider a small educational effort wherein you get > together with the complainants and explain what you were doing and > why, why it was legal, and more importantly, why it was safe. (Maybe > the airport manager should attend, too.) You will then have removed > your's and maybe a few other's nails from the GA coffin. Yes I know > it's an effort, but after all, it's your nail. > > > Guy Buchanan > San Diego, CA > K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. I didn't prove any of your points. I must have done something unsafe. BS I didn't do anything wrong, all I did was do touch and go's on all runways. I asked another pilot about this and he immediately said, Oh you did touch and go's on all runways, that's enough to piss people off at that airport. I guess the point I'm trying to get out here is the fact that there are so called pilots out there that want to see the classic flying of student pilots. BY THE BOOK. All I can say is let people go around turning pilots in, it will keep the airwaves free, more spacing for me. I have a terrible time with pilots that are not proficient. They constantly turn in front of me on final, turn into my flight path on take off(parallel runways), pop out on the runway at the hold short lines when I'm on final. If it will discourage pilots from flying, (fear of being turned into the FAA). THen great, it will keep those idiots out of the sky. -------- kitfoxmike model IV, 1200 speedster 912ul building RV7a slowbuild wings, fuse, finish kit "if you're not getting razzed from pilots or the FAA then you're not flying enough" Do not archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156404#156404 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:16:56 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Rule breakers Was: Re: This feud isn't pretty! At 01:04 PM 1/6/2008, you wrote: >I guess the point I'm trying to get out here is the fact that there >are so called pilots out there that want to see the classic flying >of student pilots. >BY THE BOOK. Mike, What did you do that might not have been "BY THE BOOK". Certainly not doing touch and goes on all runways; that's what they're for. I think you're saying that what you did was both legal and safe. If so, why don't you work with the airport manager to explain that to the complainers? Then you'll be free to continue with that activity. Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:43:00 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: KF-1 tail wheel and door frames From: "AKFLYERBOB" looking for a tailwheel assembly w/speing and door frames or frame kit Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156451#156451 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:14:43 PM PST US From: "Dee Young" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: KF-1 tail wheel and door frames Contact John or Debra McBean at Kitfox they can help I am sure. Dee Young Model II N345DY Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: AKFLYERBOB To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:42 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: KF-1 tail wheel and door frames > looking for a tailwheel assembly w/speing and door frames or frame kit Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156451#156451 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:33:25 PM PST US From: Clint Bazzill Subject: Kitfox-List: Vortex generators Here is a short clip of video with vortex generators More and articles later. Clint http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=ClintsKitfox ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:12:30 PM PST US From: "Dee Young" Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox construction My model II has been down for a time with mag problems. I have made the necessary repairs and it runs good. There have been several other items that have been a bother since I built the plane. One has been cold starting problems. From reading posts on this list I learned that the cable size is a major consideration. I have changed to a larger cable now and the plane spins over nicely and starts good. The second was the cooling shroud looked lousy. I have taken the time to rebuild the cooling shroud using 6061 T6 aluminum. I finished the fitting and assembly today. It sure looks a lot better than the old one and it is also much more substantial. Rivnuts are great. I am sure no one really cares about all this stuff but I think its good to remind ourselves the value of the list. I think we sometime forget how much help it can provide for those in the building process. I am one of the guys out here that had no aviation experience at all when I started the build and I live in an area where there was no one to ask for help. The only place to get answers was here. I really like reading the posts and continue to learn a lot of good stuff from the more experienced folks. Dee Young Kitfox II N345DY KFM 112 Do not archive. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:17:05 PM PST US From: Clint Bazzill Subject: Kitfox-List: Hi Brent, Try barnstormers, google and see what you come up with. The Kitfox list is kitfox-list@matronics.com Clint will keep you posted and thanks for the call. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:36:33 PM PST US From: "A Smith" Subject: Kitfox-List: Reality check, it is time Much to the dismay of our moderator, this has nothing to do with Kitfox. (I like to do that sometimes) Without this, there there is no group. THE DREAM The first memory of my childhood is that of my father and me in the park. Flying. It was a model that he had built. He would throw it and the children of the neighborhood would run after it until it landed. That is until it was stepped on in the hurry to get it first. The closest one got to pick it up and bring it back. An honor and time I am sure long forgotten by all. Except one. I did not run after the plane. I stood in fascination. The beauty of it flitting around on the air. Nobody could touch it until it came back from the safety of the winds to the confines and rigors of the earth. I knew at that moment that I had to have that freedom, that safety. Years of sitting at airports watching the planes come and go, the pilots with there air of superiority about them. Afraid ot let them catch me looking at them for what they might do. Amazed at how they handled those long wings on the ground. Maneuvering them between all the other planes that were parked. Then the day came. My father was taking flying lessons in an Aerocoupe. He was going to go do some solo time and the plane needed fuel. He told me to get in and steer it while he pushed it to the FBO. I do not know why the truck didn"t just drive down to it. I have a pretty good idea though. I climbed into the cockpit and settled into the seat. To short to see anything. I wasn't going to let that little inconvenience stop me though. I could stretch and see just fine. He showed me how to steer it. And as he climbed down, withour turning around said, "watch the wings, and keep it centered." We started to move. My dad, the power. Me at the controls. And boy did I watch the wings. Like a hawk on the first leap from the nest. It was only a few hundred feet to the truck. And I am sure it was kept somewhat centered. Which probably added another few hundreed feet. I did not say anything then. But dad could have pushed me back and forth all day long. I never told anybody, They would not believe me anyway. That was my private taste for the feeling of the freedom to flying. Like a child, it is not reality at first. Until one day, like conception, there is no turning back. And there it sits. Steel, Aluminum, plastic. A stranger in your area. Yet there is a bond that already exists. You can feel it when you are near. I seems to reach out to you. And as that of the birth of a child. It starts. You mold and shape. Touch and check every square inch. Just waiting for the slightest hint of a problem. If there is, you attack it with ferocity. Defending your own blood. There are the doubters and the non beleavers. You don't listen. It doesn't matter what it does. Good or bad. You molded it after yourself, Its's perfect. It's the DREAM. This is what keeps us all together ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:47:08 PM PST US From: "A Smith" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox construction Dee Do not think that no one cares. It is all important. The group seems to be loosing something. It is not anyone in particular. It is hard to put a finger on. Glad to hear of your alum. bending fun. Tell me about it. After all, it is Kitfox related. I like to work with alum. but I am not even close to what some of the people on the list can do. I figure if it is straight or I really meant to bend it it is good. Got some pics??? You can send them to me off list. Do not want to offend the moderator. Albert Smith Mod. 5 TD NSI Turbo, CAP Mudlake, Idaho ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.