Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:13 AM - Re: Vortex generators (dave)
2. 05:28 AM - Is Faster Better? (RRTRACK@aol.com)
3. 08:27 AM - Re: Reality check, it is time (john oakley)
4. 01:21 PM - Re: Kitfox-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 01/06/08 (matthew stone)
5. 02:22 PM - Re: Re: Reality check, it is time (Guy Buchanan)
6. 02:22 PM - Re: Reality check, it is time (Michael Gibbs)
7. 02:41 PM - Re: Reality check, it is time (84KF)
8. 03:24 PM - Wing Tank Fuel Finger Strainers ()
9. 05:50 PM - Current events/ski story (Lynn Matteson)
10. 06:06 PM - Re: Wing Tank Fuel Finger Strainers (Lynn Matteson)
11. 06:21 PM - Re: This feud isn't pretty! (Noel Loveys)
12. 06:38 PM - Re: Reality check, it is time (shinco)
13. 06:40 PM - Re: Wing Tank Fuel Finger Strainers (Guy Buchanan)
14. 06:54 PM - Re: Wing Tank Fuel Finger Strainers (W & R Beck)
15. 07:30 PM - Re: Current events/ski story (84KF)
16. 08:18 PM - Re: Reality check, it is time (Noel Loveys)
17. 08:19 PM - Re: Wing Tank Fuel Finger Strainers (Rick)
18. 08:24 PM - Re: Current events/ski story (Lynn Matteson)
19. 08:43 PM - Re: Current events/ski story (Lynn Matteson)
20. 08:44 PM - Re: Reality check, it is time (john oakley)
21. 08:51 PM - Re: Current events/ski story (Noel Loveys)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Vortex generators |
Good stuff Clint , looking forward to seeing this report.
Her is one of my videos flying with Vgs.
I am going to have to get some more done with stall testing too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjKkuLUpOnQ
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156505#156505
Message 2
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| Subject: | Is Faster Better? |
After Flying an Avid "B" I built for 20 years I bought an RV-6A with an
0-360. These are great airplanes and it performed as well or better than Van's
performance charts showed. I could cruise at 180 MPH @ 10 GPH. My test flight
was a two hundred mile flight down the Colorado River, doesn't get much better
than that!
The only time you need the rudder is to take off and land. But I missed the
STOL performance of the Avid and sold the RV-6A and bought the Kitfox 5 I now
fly. I like to fly the Kitfox far more than the RV. Most flights are just
for pleasure more than getting anywhere. The Kitfox is fun and economical to
fly. I can cruise at 115 MPH on less than 5 GPH of auto fuel with the 912 UL.
I
owned the RV for a year and a half and sold it for more than I bought it
for, so resale value is very good with the RV's. The used Kitfox I bought was
about half the cost of building one, and I am sure it took around 1500 hours to
build. A great value for the money.
My next Kitfox will have floats and the 912S. Can't let Paul Seehafer have
all the fun!
Also thanks to everyone who takes those great videos of flying in there
areas of the world. They are truly inspiring and keep us all motivated.
Mark
Kitfox 5 Vixen
912UL IVO
Hartford, Wisconsin
**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
Message 3
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| Subject: | Reality check, it is time |
"Much to the dismay of our moderator, this has nothing to do with Kitfox. (I
like to do that sometimes) Without this, there is no group."
Albert,
Our moderators have forgotten what the list is about. We have one who does
not want any friendship on the list and one who is king, he knows more than
anyone and will argue for page after page to prove it. I have thought hard
about quitting the list but like many us of feel we need the list for us and
the new builders, the experience's and energy behind this size group is
nothing to waste.
I have been on the list since 92, I have built 2 kitfox, I have flown 8
different fox, dozens of other aircraft including war birds and heavy's. I
hoped my experiences have helped someone. I know at least one person that
was on the list what may have saved my life, pulling my cowl and pointing
out the broken motor mount. Every year I try to complete some update to the
bird, usually using information found on the list. I salute all of you who
have helped someone through a problem or a question. Please continue to help
john and Debra continue their work. If you need a part give john and chance
to provide it, at least ask if he can match the price. We need john to
continue the line, this well help the pricing and continue the legacy that
Dan Denny started building in his garage twenty five years ago. With 15
years on the list, I guess you could call it a habit, I guess I can break
the habit if I have to "I am a man and can change if I have to" (red-green)
John Oakley
Speedster 4 long and short wings
912 ul with cap
Message 4
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| Subject: | RE: Kitfox-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 01/06/08 |
I wish the system would kick this guys off until they can behave like adult
s
> Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 23:58:52 -0800> From: kitfox-list@matronics.com> To
: kitfox-list-digest@matronics.com> Subject: Kitfox-List Digest: 16 Msgs -
01/06/08> > *> > ===================
======> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive> ==
=======================> > To
day's complete Kitfox-List Digest can also be found in either of the > two
Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted > in H
TML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes > and M
essage Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version > of the
Kitfox-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor > such as N
otepad or with a web browser. > > HTML Version:> > http://www.matronics.com
/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 08-01-06&Archi
ve=Kitfox> > Text Version:> > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.
php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 08-01-06&Archive=Kitfox> > > =
======================> EMail V
ersion of Today's List Digest Archive> ============
===========> > > ------------------------------------
----------------------> Kitfox-List Digest Archive> ---> Total Messages Pos
ted Sun 01/06/08: 16> -----------------------------------------------------
-----> > > Today's Message Index:> ----------------------> > 1. 12:05 AM -
Re: This feud isn't pretty! (Michael Gibbs)> 2. 01:50 AM - Re: Re: Short Ch
anging Ourselves!! (Michel Verheughe)> 3. 05:57 AM - Re: This feud isn't pr
etty! (fox5flyer)> 4. 08:05 AM - This feud isn't pretty! It's over. (Rexste
r)> 5. 08:18 AM - Re: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! (Guy Buchanan)> 6. 09:
00 AM - Re: This feud isn't pretty! It's over. (Dan Billingsley)> 7. 11:52
AM - Re: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! (Michel Verheughe)> 8. 01:06 PM - R
ule breakers Was: Re: This feud isn't pretty! (kitfoxmike)> 9. 02:16 PM - R
e: Rule breakers Was: Re: This feud isn't pretty! (Guy Buchanan)> 10. 04:43
PM - KF-1 tail wheel and door frames (AKFLYERBOB)> 11. 05:14 PM - Re: KF-1
tail wheel and door frames (Dee Young)> 12. 05:33 PM - Vortex generators (
Clint Bazzill)> 13. 08:12 PM - Kitfox construction (Dee Young)> 14. 10:17 P
M - (Clint Bazzill)> 15. 11:36 PM - Reality check, it is time (A Smith)> 16
. 11:47 PM - Re: Kitfox construction (A Smith)> > > > _____________________
___________ Message 1 _____________________________________> > > Time: 12:0
5:11 AM PST US> From: Michael Gibbs <MichaelGibbs@cox.net>> Subject: Re: Ki
tfox-List: This feud isn't pretty!> > > Rick sez:> > >...as a fellow aviato
r, I don't want to see our privileges (not > >rights) jeopardized...> > Onl
y government bureaucrats (and former bureaucrats) think they are > empowere
d to issue "privileges". :-)> > Minor quibbles aside, there's a lot of wisd
om in your post, Rick, > particularly with respect to the attitude an aviat
or should maintain > while interacting with FAA officials. I am continually
amazed at the > number of pilots that are happy to participate in argument
s with > controllers on the radio. The best that could possibly be achieved
> is a stalemate and the worst would be some type of enforcement > action.
Swallowing your pride might be all it takes to put an end to > the problem
and yet many just can't seem to do it.> > Maybe pilot training should incl
ude a short session on diplomacy. :-)> > Mike G.> N728KF> Phoenix, AZ> > >
________________________________ Message 2 ________________________________
_____> > > Time: 01:50:13 AM PST US> From: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.
no>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!> > > On Jan 6
, 2008, at 6:21 AM, av8rps wrote:> > How many of the competitve airplanes h
ave the ever so sweet and nimble > > handling the Kitfox has?> > I don't kn
ow, Paul, I haven't been flying very much other planes than > my Kitfox. Wh
at I know, though, is that the market here is changing for > the carbon-fib
re water-drop speed machines. My former instructor just > bought a WT-9 Dyn
amic. See the link: > http://web.lightsportaviation.se/index.php? > option
=com_frontpage&Itemid=1&lang=en> Next summer, he intends to fly Norwa
y-Spain non-stop in ten hours. He > flies about twice as fast as me in my K
itfox. Speed seems to be the > argument here. I have seen this in my long e
xperience with sailing and > yachting in general: The search for the extra
knot of speed. But why?> Either the pleasure is to get there (on the water
or in the air) or to > be there. If the latter then why not fly an airliner
? It's surely > faster!> > I love my Kitfox because ... it feels safe, simp
le and ... it's mine. I > have seen women prettier than my wife but I won't
change wife for that. > I am fortunate to be happy with what I have. There
is nothing I am > missing with my Kitfox.> > Cheers,> Michel Verheughe> No
rway> Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200> do not archive> > > _________________________
_______ Message 3 _____________________________________> > > Time: 05:57:15
AM PST US> From: "fox5flyer" <fox5flyer@idealwifi.net>> Subject: Re: Kitfo
x-List: This feud isn't pretty!> > Excellent post Rick. It's good to hear f
rom someone who speaks with > experience from being close to the action. >
My purpose in writing this is to give a short blurb on my own thoughts > an
d experiences regarding the FAA, mostly from the air traffic control > side
. > I first earned my private license in early 1970, then commercial > some
time in 1971, while holding down an air traffic control (ATC) job > that I
retired from in 1988. I had plenty of interaction with FAA in > various ass
ignments, including Seattle ARTCC. As a pilot or ATC at no > time was I eve
r unnecessarily hassled about anything. Every fed that I > came into contac
t with was courteous, knowledgeable, and helpful. I, > like a lot of others
on this list, have spent my fair share of time > hanging around airports,
whether it was flying, working on my airplane, > attending get-togethers, o
r just sitting around in the terminal having > coffee listening to and part
icipating in the conversations. Lots of > camaraderie. However, one thing t
hat always bothered me was the > occasional person who would take every opp
ortunity to hammer the FAA > about something. Usually it was things like "I
never talk to air > traffic control", then go on about some anecdotal stor
y picked up about > somebody being vectored out of their way near a busy ai
rport, or > something along that level. There are also those who vehemently
make it > known how they refuse to use their radios or transponders around
> congested areas, preferring to fly right through without talking to ATC.
> Their reasons are usually something like "I don't need the hassle of > t
he feds", or something along that line. This always makes me cringe. > I co
uld post a lot of the usual stories, but they never seem to change > much,
and always come from the same types of people. It was difficult > for me to
keep quiet while hearing this sort of talk (still is) because > I knew mos
t of it was embellished BS (hangar talk). Unfortunately, > there are often
very naive and inexperienced pilots around who are > listening and, like sp
onges, they soak it right up and it later becomes > very difficult to chang
e their minds about it. "First learned is best > learned". Sure, like anyth
ing else, the FAA is not perfect. > Unfortunately, there are the occasional
problems within the FAA like the > Bob Hoover debacle, but they are rare.
> Everyone of us pays the taxes that puts ATC in place and pays the wages >
of those guys and gals who are trying to do their job which is providing >
a safe and orderly flow of traffic. They are highly trained and with > few
exceptions, are very capable and willing to help. Personally, I use > ATC
at every opportunity for flight following. I don't fly IMC and I > don't fi
le IFR, but I definitely like to know that I am being seen on > radar by so
meone who has the ability to keep me safe from other pilots > out there who
may not be able to see me. One big plus for flight > following that is ver
y important to me is that if I have a problem that > may threaten continued
flight, I already have instant contact with ATC > who knows exactly where
I am and should I have to make an emergency > landing, rescue would be quic
k.> I'm sure there will be some "yeah, but..." replies and that is OK, but
> if this helps to change the mindset of at least one person, I'm > satisfi
ed.> Now, on a Kitfox note, I'll be bringing my airplane down to the shop >
today to start the annual.> Deke Morisse> Mikado Michigan> S5/Subaru/CAP 3
55+ TT> "Nothing will ever be attempted, if all possible objections must fi
rst > be overcome".- Samuel Johnson> > Guys/Gals,> > Excuse the previous bl
ank email, somehow my computer decided it was > time to send it out. I'm in
nocent. I didn't even touch a key, go > figure.> > I did want to mention so
mething that might be helpful to all of us. I > retired from the FAA in 199
7 and I held a number of relatively high > positions on the engineering sid
e of the Agency. I did work a lot with > flight standards folks, the regula
tors of aviation. I can say this > about them, they all (with very few exce
ptions) got into the FAA because > they loved aviation. Some were always GA
and some a combination of > military and GA, but all like their jobs, be t
hey pilots or mechanics.> > The inspectors get very regimented training on
the rules before they > interface with the public. They all are serious abo
ut safety and their > main mission is to protect the ' innocent public' and
then the aviators. > Many of them would do anything to avoid citing a pilo
t or a > technicality because it means a lot of paperwork. Yes, there are s
ome > that look forward to the opportunity to 'get someone', but the > mana
gement in HQ tries to not let that happen. For instance, at > AirVenture th
ere can be 20 or 30 inspectors walking around and they are > trained to not
hassle the pilots, but to work with the person if they > see a problem. Yo
u probably have never even noticed many of them when > they are working on
the ramp, unless they're wearing an FAA name tag or > shirt.> > Given all t
his, when someone brings a problem to their attention, they > cannot ignore
it. They are obligated to follow through and research the > complaint. Act
ually, that's what we, as taxpayers, expect from our > government employees
. That being said, when we want something from the > FAA don't we expect th
em to work hard and get an answer in a reasonable > time?> > The real probl
em we face is how to interact with the inspector. If we > show a compliant
attitude (do not read this as confessing to breaking a > rule - get an atto
rney before you even consider doing that) and strive > for a safety related
outcome, it is possible to get off with just a > warning, either verbally
or written. Once you do something that causes > the inspector to be concern
ed and he forwards his findings to the > attorneys at FAA, all bets are off
. Attorneys work in a world of rules > and sanctions. Once they get the cas
e they will do their attorney > thing. It then becomes difficult to get a c
ompromise without > professional (your attorney) help.> > If you have a pro
blem with a fellow aviator, confront him or her > directly and try to work
it out. If you are doing something > 'unexpected' or just plain wrong and s
omeone confronts you, explain it, > accept the responsibility, or if you ch
oose to deny it, or do whatever > you think is appropriate, expect the FAA
to come ask when the person you > blew off decides to call the feds. When y
ou do that, at least you now > know the process you are about to enter. Rem
ember, the rules will be > enforced, right or wrong (I mean whether the rul
e is right or wrong). > if you don't like the rules, petition the Agency to
change it. The FAA > is obligated to address that request to. However,as w
e always say, the > rules have been written, for the most part, in the bloo
d of the aviators > who have gone west before us. They aren't that onerous,
they are our > government's best attempt to draw the limits on what is saf
e. Just > don't place yourself in a position that will allow the FAA inspec
tor to > interpret the rules. English is a tough language and different wor
ds > can be interpreted in different ways. Enter the lawyers. This is where
> they make their careers. Don't give these folks the opportunity to get >
awards, for getting you. > > I apologize for going on, but as a fellow avi
ator, I don't want to see > our privileges (not rights) jeopardized by some
of us operating as > 'cowboys' and stirring up the public (or other aviato
rs) who then think > they have to save the world and go to the FAA. > > Fly
safe!> > Rick Weiss> Kitfox Series V Speedster (soon to fly - I hope)> Day
tona Beach> > > -----------------------------------------------------------
--------------> -----> Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape
in the new year. > > > ________________________________ Message 4 ________
_____________________________> > > Time: 08:05:35 AM PST US> From: "Rexster
" <runwayrex@juno.com>> Subject: Kitfox-List: This feud isn't pretty! It's
over.> > Deke and Rick,> Both of you make some excellent points here and yo
ur positions are wel> l written. As a high school teacher for the past 33 y
ears, I see all kin> ds of students and get to see some patterns. There are
some great kids a> round who I can predict are on their ways to happy and
successful career> s and lives. There are other kids who don't seem to unde
rstand that you > can have a good time on evenings and weekends without doi
ng things that > are wrong. These are the kids who state that they "don't l
ike cops" and > feel that cops are out to get them.Their stories indicate t
hat they have> n't learned how to enjoy life without being on the edge of b
reaking the > law and then feel like the police are out to hassle them. My
challange t> o them and all the students is to have a good time in life whi
le always > making sure that their pleasure doesn't come at anyone else's e
xpense. > > All of this transfers right over to us as pilots. I fly a lot.
I'm very > involved with my EAA Chapter here in southeast Michigan and we e
nd up in> volved with many airports and sometimes the FAA for Young Eagle f
lights > and other activities. I'm thrilled that they are there and make su
re tha> t they are happy we are there doing what we do. At no time have we
ever > been hassled by the FAA, a controller, airport managers, the neighbo
ring> public or anybody else. I think that anybody who feels they're not ab
le> to enjoy life or aviation without being hassled by the cops or FAA simp
> ly hasn't figured out how to have a good time without it being at other >
people's expense. At school, we call it "people skills". It goes a long >
way in life.> Enjoy,> Rex Phelps / Model 3 / 912UL / Warp / Michigan> > > -
- "fox5flyer" <fox5flyer@idealwifi.net> wrote:> > Excellent post Rick. It's
good to hear from someone who speaks with exp> erience from being close to
the action. My purpose in writing this is t> o give a short blurb on my ow
n thoughts and experiences regarding the FA> A, mostly from the air traffic
control side. I first earned my private > license in early 1970, then comm
ercial sometime in 1971, while holding d> own an air traffic control (ATC)
job that I retired from in 1988. I had> plenty of interaction with FAA in v
arious assignments, including Seattl> e ARTCC. As a pilot or ATC at no time
was I ever unnecessarily hassled > about anything. Every fed that I came i
nto contact with was courteous, > knowledgeable, and helpful. I, like a lot
of others on this list, have > spent my fair share of time hanging around
airports, whether it was flyi> ng, working on my airplane, attending get-to
gethers, or just sitting ar> ound in the terminal having coffee listening t
o and participating in the> conversations. Lots of camaraderie. However, on
e thing that always bo> thered me was the occasional person who would take
every opportunity to > hammer the FAA about something. Usually it was thing
s like "I never tal> k to air traffic control", then go on about some anecd
otal story picked > up about somebody being vectored out of their way near
a busy airport, o> r something along that level. There are also those who v
ehemently make > it known how they refuse to use their radios or transponde
rs around cong> ested areas, preferring to fly right through without talkin
g to ATC. Th> eir reasons are usually something like "I don't need the hass
le of the f> eds", or something along that line. This always makes me cring
e. I cou> ld post a lot of the usual stories, but they never seem to change
much, > and always come from the same types of people. It was difficult fo
r me > to keep quiet while hearing this sort of talk (still is) because I k
new > most of it was embellished BS (hangar talk). Unfortunately, there are
> often very naive and inexperienced pilots around who are listening and,
> like sponges, they soak it right up and it later becomes very difficult >
to change their minds about it. "First learned is best learned". Sure> , l
ike anything else, the FAA is not perfect. Unfortunately, there are > the o
ccasional problems within the FAA like the Bob Hoover debacle, but > they a
re rare. Everyone of us pays the taxes that puts ATC in place an> d pays th
e wages of those guys and gals who are trying to do their job w> hich is pr
oviding a safe and orderly flow of traffic. They are highly t> rained and w
ith few exceptions, are very capable and willing to help. P> ersonally, I u
se ATC at every opportunity for flight following. I don't> fly IMC and I do
n't file IFR, but I definitely like to know that I am b> eing seen on radar
by someone who has the ability to keep me safe from o> ther pilots out the
re who may not be able to see me. One big plus for f> light following that
is very important to me is that if I have a problem> that may threaten cont
inued flight, I already have instant contact with> ATC who knows exactly wh
ere I am and should I have to make an emergency> landing, rescue would be q
uick.I'm sure there will be some "yeah, but..> ." replies and that is OK, b
ut if this helps to change the mindset of at> least one person, I'm satisfi
ed.Now, on a Kitfox note, I'll be bringing> my airplane down to the shop to
day to start the annual.Deke Morisse> Mikado Michigan> S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ T
T> "Nothing will ever be attempted, if all possible objections must first b
> e overcome".- Samuel Johnson Guys/Gals, Excuse the previous blank email,>
somehow my computer decided it was time to send it out. I'm innocent. > I
didn't even touch a key, go figure. I did want to mention something t> hat
might be helpful to all of us. I retired from the FAA in 1997 and I> held a
number of relatively high positions on the engineering side of t> he Agenc
y. I did work a lot with flight standards folks, the regulators> of aviatio
n. I can say this about them, they all (with very few except> ions) got int
o the FAA because they loved aviation. Some were always GA> and some a comb
ination of military and GA, but all like their jobs, be > they pilots or me
chanics. The inspectors get very regimented training on> the rules before t
hey interface with the public. They all are serious > about safety and thei
r main mission is to protect the ' innocent public'> and then the aviators.
Many of them would do anything to avoid citing > a pilot or a technicality
because it means a lot of paperwork. Yes, the> re are some that look forwa
rd to the opportunity to 'get someone', but t> he management in HQ tries to
not let that happen. For instance, at AirV> enture there can be 20 or 30 i
nspectors walking around and they are trai> ned to not hassle the pilots, b
ut to work with the person if they see a > problem. You probably have never
even noticed many of them when they ar> e working on the ramp, unless they
're wearing an FAA name tag or shirt. > Given all this, when someone brings
a problem to their attention, they c> annot ignore it. They are obligated
to follow through and research the > complaint. Actually, that's what we, a
s taxpayers, expect from our gove> rnment employees. That being said, when
we want something from the FAA > don't we expect them to work hard and get
an answer in a reasonable time> ? The real problem we face is how to intera
ct with the inspector. If we> show a compliant attitude (do not read this a
s confessing to breaking a> rule - get an attorney before you even consider
doing that) and strive > for a safety related outcome, it is possible to g
et off with just a warn> ing, either verbally or written. Once you do somet
hing that causes the > inspector to be concerned and he forwards his findin
gs to the attorneys > at FAA, all bets are off. Attorneys work in a world o
f rules and sancti> ons. Once they get the case they will do their attorney
thing. It then> becomes difficult to get a compromise without professional
(your attorn> ey) help. If you have a problem with a fellow aviator, confr
ont him or h> er directly and try to work it out. If you are doing somethin
g 'unexpec> ted' or just plain wrong and someone confronts you, explain it,
accept t> he responsibility, or if you choose to deny it, or do whatever y
ou think> is appropriate, expect the FAA to come ask when the person you bl
ew off> decides to call the feds. When you do that, at least you now know t
he p> rocess you are about to enter. Remember, the rules will be enforced,
ri> ght or wrong (I mean whether the rule is right or wrong). if you don't
> like the rules, petition the Agency to change it. The FAA is obligated >
to address that request to. However,as we always say, the rules have be> en
written, for the most part, in the blood of the aviators who have gon> e w
est before us. They aren't that onerous, they are our government's b> est a
ttempt to draw the limits on what is safe. Just don't place yourse> lf in a
position that will allow the FAA inspector to interpret the rule> s. Engli
sh is a tough language and different words can be interpreted i> n differen
t ways. Enter the lawyers. This is where they make their car> eers. Don't g
ive these folks the opportunity to get awards, for getting> you. I apologiz
e for going on, but as a fellow aviator, I don't want> to see our privilege
s (not rights) jeopardized by some of us operating > as 'cowboys' and stirr
ing up the public (or other aviators) who then thi> nk they have to save th
e world and go to the FAA. Fly safe! Rick WeissK> itfox Series V Speedster
(soon to fly - I hope)Daytona Beach> > > Start the year off right. Easy way
s to stay in shape in the new year. hr> ef="http://www.matronics.com/Navi
gator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronh> ref="http://forums.matronics.com">
http://forums.matronics.comhref="h> ============
============> ============
============> ============
============> ============
============> ============
============> ============
============> ============
============> => ________________________________
_____________________________> Find custom shirts that suit you to a "
t"! Click now!> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2121/fc/Ioyw6i3nPo
wfsSuVu1iD3UMXkotO> BGg0PJmUgfkmOurr25PlcLSNgf/> > ________________________
________ Message 5 _____________________________________> > > Time: 08:18:5
3 AM PST US> From: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List
: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!> > > At 01:47 AM 1/6/2008, you wrote:> >Ne
xt summer, he intends to fly Norway-Spain non-stop in ten hours. He> >flies
about twice as fast as me in my Kitfox. Speed seems to be the> >argument h
ere.> > Michel,> Interesting enough, speed is all the rage here amongst the
> Kitfox community; lots of work on drag reduction and increased > horsepo
wer. It's unfortunate since I'm guessing it's only a matter of > time befor
e some start trading their Kitfoxes in for the fast-glass machines.> > > Gu
y Buchanan> San Diego, CA> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mos
tly to Bob Ducar.> > Do not archive> > > ________________________________ M
essage 6 _____________________________________> > > Time: 09:00:21 AM PST U
S> From: Dan Billingsley <dan@azshowersolutions.com>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-L
ist: This feud isn't pretty! It's over.> > Rex,> Well said...From one high
school teacher to another.> Dan B> Mesa, AZ> KF-IV, 912s, 314DW> > Rexster
<runwayrex@juno.com> wrote:> Deke and Rick,> Both of you make some excellen
t points here and your positions are well written.> As a high school teache
r for the past 33 years, I see all kinds of students> and get to see some p
atterns. There are some great kids around who I can predict> are on their w
ays to happy and successful careers and lives. There are> other kids who do
n't seem to understand that you can have a good time on evenings> and weeke
nds without doing things that are wrong. These are the kids who state> that
they "don't like cops" and feel that cops are out to get them.Their> stori
es indicate that they haven't learned how to enjoy life without being on> t
he edge of breaking the law and then feel like the police are out to hassle
them.> My challange to them and all the students is to have a good time in
life> while always making sure that their pleasure doesn't come at anyone
else's expense.> > All of this transfers right over to us as pilots. I fly
a lot. I'm very involved> with my EAA Chapter here in southeast Michigan an
d we end up involved with> many airports and sometimes the FAA for Young Ea
gle flights and other activities.> I'm thrilled that they are there and mak
e sure that they are happy we are> there doing what we do. At no time have
we ever been hassled by the FAA, a controller,> airport managers, the neigh
boring public or anybody else. I think that> anybody who feels they're not
able to enjoy life or aviation without being> hassled by the cops or FAA si
mply hasn't figured out how to have a good time without> it being at other
people's expense. At school, we call it "people skills".> It goes a long wa
y in life.> Enjoy,> Rex Phelps / Model 3 / 912UL / Warp / Michigan> > -- "f
ox5flyer" <fox5flyer@idealwifi.net> wrote:> > Excellent post Rick. It's goo
d to hear from someone who speaks with experience> from being close to the
action. > My purpose in writing this is to give a short blurb on my own tho
ughts and experiences> regarding the FAA, mostly from the air traffic contr
ol side. > I first earned my private license in early 1970, then commercial
sometime in> 1971, while holding down an air traffic control (ATC) job tha
t I retired from> in 1988. I had plenty of interaction with FAA in various
assignments, including> Seattle ARTCC. As a pilot or ATC at no time was I e
ver unnecessarily hassled> about anything. Every fed that I came into conta
ct with was courteous, knowledgeable,> and helpful. I, like a lot of others
on this list, have spent my> fair share of time hanging around airports, w
hether it was flying, working on> my airplane, attending get-togethers, or
just sitting around in the terminal> having coffee listening to and partici
pating in the conversations. Lots of camaraderie.> However, one thing that
always bothered me was the occasional person> who would take every opportun
ity to hammer the FAA about something. Usually> it was things like "I never
talk to air traffic control", then go on about some> anecdotal story picke
d up about somebody being> vectored out of their way near a busy airport, o
r something along that level.> There are also those who vehemently make it
known how they refuse to use their> radios or transponders around congested
areas, preferring to fly right through> without talking to ATC. Their reas
ons are usually something like "I don't> need the hassle of the feds", or s
omething along that line. This always makes> me cringe. I could post a lot
of the usual stories, but they never seem to change> much, and always come
from the same types of people. It was difficult for> me to keep quiet while
hearing this sort of talk (still is) because I knew> most of it was embell
ished BS (hangar talk). Unfortunately, there are often> very naive and inex
perienced pilots around who are listening and, like sponges,> they soak it
right up and it later becomes very difficult to change their minds> about i
t. "First learned is best learned". Sure, like anything else, the> FAA is n
ot perfect. Unfortunately, there are the> occasional problems within the FA
A like the Bob Hoover debacle, but they are rare.> > Everyone of us pays th
e taxes that puts ATC in place and pays the wages of those> guys and gals w
ho are trying to do their job which is providing a safe and> orderly flow o
f traffic. They are highly trained and with few exceptions, are> very capab
le and willing to help. Personally, I use ATC at every opportunity> for fli
ght following. I don't fly IMC and I don't file IFR, but I definitely> like
to know that I am being seen on radar by someone who has the ability to> k
eep me safe from other pilots out there who may not be able to see me. One>
big plus for flight following that is very important to me is that if I ha
ve a> problem that may threaten continued flight, I already have instant co
ntact with> ATC who knows exactly where I am and should I have to make an e
mergency landing,> rescue would be quick.> I'm sure there will be some "yea
h, but..." replies and that is OK, but if this> helps to change the mindset
of at least one person, I'm satisfied.> Now, on a Kitfox note, I'll be bri
nging my airplane down to the shop today to> start the annual.> Deke Moriss
e> Mikado Michigan> S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT> "Nothing will ever be attempted,
if all possible objections must first be overcome".-> Samuel Johnson> > Gu
ys/Gals,> > Excuse the previous blank email, somehow my computer decided it
was time to send> it out. I'm innocent. I didn't even touch a key, go figu
re.> > I did want to mention something that might be helpful to all of us.
I retired> from the FAA in 1997 and I held a number of relatively high posi
tions on the> engineering side of the Agency. I did work a lot with flight
standards folks,> the regulators of aviation. I can say this about them, th
ey all (with very> few exceptions) got into the FAA because they loved avia
tion. Some were always> GA and some a combination of military and GA, but a
ll like their jobs, be they> pilots or mechanics.> > The inspectors get ver
y regimented training on the rules before they interface> with the public.
They all are serious about safety and their main mission is> to protect the
' innocent public' and then the aviators. Many of them would> do anything
to avoid citing a pilot or a technicality because it means a lot> of paperw
ork. Yes, there are some that look forward to the opportunity to 'get> some
one', but the management in HQ tries to not let that happen. For instance,>
at AirVenture there can be 20 or 30 inspectors walking around and they are
> trained to not hassle the pilots, but to work with the person if they see
a problem.> You probably have never even noticed many of them when they ar
e working> on the ramp, unless they're wearing an FAA name tag or shirt.> >
Given all this, when someone brings a problem to their attention, they can
not> ignore it. They are obligated to follow through and research the compl
aint.> Actually, that's what we, as taxpayers, expect from our government e
mployees.> That being said, when we want something from the FAA don't we ex
pect them to> work hard and get an answer in a reasonable time?> > The real
problem we face is how to interact with the inspector. If we show a> compl
iant attitude (do not read this as confessing to breaking a rule - get an>
attorney before you even consider doing that) and strive for a safety relat
ed> outcome, it is possible to get off with just a warning, either verbally
or written.> Once you do something that causes the inspector to be concern
ed and he> forwards his findings to the attorneys at FAA, all bets are off.
Attorneys> work in a world of rules and sanctions. Once they get the case
they will do their> attorney thing. It then becomes difficult to get a comp
romise without professional> (your attorney) help.> > If you have a problem
with a fellow aviator, confront him or her directly and> try to work it ou
t. If you are doing something 'unexpected' or just plain wrong> and someone
confronts you, explain it, accept the responsibility, or if you> choose to
deny it, or do whatever you think is appropriate, expect the FAA to> come
ask when the person you blew off decides to call the feds. When you do> tha
t, at least you now know the process you are about to enter. Remember, the>
rules will be enforced, right or wrong (I mean whether the rule is right o
r wrong).> if you don't like the rules, petition the Agency to change it. T
he FAA> is obligated to address that request to. However,as we always say,
the rules> have been written, for the most part, in the blood of the aviato
rs who have> gone west before us. They aren't that onerous, they are our go
vernment's best> attempt to draw the limits on what is safe. Just don't pla
ce yourself in a position> that will allow the FAA inspector to> interpret
the rules. English is a tough language and different words can be interpret
ed> in different ways. Enter the lawyers. This is where they make their> ca
reers. Don't give these folks the opportunity to get awards, for getting> y
ou. > > I apologize for going on, but as a fellow aviator, I don't want to
see our privileges> (not rights) jeopardized by some of us operating as 'co
wboys' and stirring> up the public (or other aviators) who then think they
have to save the world> and go to the FAA. > > Fly safe!> > Rick Weiss> Kit
fox Series V Speedster (soon to fly - I hope)> Daytona Beach> > > > -------
--------------------------> Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in
shape in the new year. > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfo
x-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums
.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.ma
tronics.com/c > > ===================
================= ">http://www.matronics.
com/Navigator?Kitfox-List ================
==================== tronics.com
=========== www.matronics.com/contribution ===
======== > > > ____________________________________________
_________________> Find custom shirts that suit you to a "t"! Click now!> >
> ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________
________> > > Time: 11:52:50 AM PST US> From: Michel Verheughe <michel@onli
ne.no>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!> > > On Ja
n 6, 2008, at 4:57 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote:> > Interesting enough, speed is
all the rage here amongst the Kitfox > > community; lots of work on drag re
duction and increased horsepower.> > I understand, Guy. Indeed, it may soun
d silly to use extra fuel to push > a draggy object through the air.> > Whe
n I decided to get a pilot license then buy an aircraft, I had no > prior k
nowledge of aviation apart from my father, the airman of my > childhood. To
me, it made sense (and still does!) that a recreational > aircraft must be
simple and reliable. We have a Rutan Defiant, here at > our airfield. Nice
plane; but not my cup of tea. My Kitfox taildragger > with a air-cooled bo
xer Jabiru is ancient and well-proven technology. > For the pleasure of bei
ng up there, feeling free like a bird, I don't > need anything more.> > I t
hink there will always be a market for that kind of aircraft; just > as peo
ple will continue to sail, ski, horse ride or use > radio-telegraphy; anach
ronisms certainly, but enjoyable ones. It will > be a smaller market, thoug
h, but a nice one.> > Cheers,> Michel Verheughe> Norway> Kitfox 3 - Jabiru
2200> > > ________________________________ Message 8 ______________________
_______________> > > Time: 01:06:25 PM PST US> Subject: Kitfox-List: Rule b
reakers Was: Re: This feud isn't pretty!> From: "kitfoxmike" <customtrans@q
west.net>> > > > Guy Buchanan wrote:> > At 07:13 AM 1/5/2008, you wrote:> >
> > > 5 days later I get a letter from the airport manager stating that >
> > there were multiple complaints about me doing erratic flying at > > > t
heir airport and if it continues they will turn me into the > > > FSDO. I d
id nothing wrong, but somebody on the ground didn't like > > > my flying an
d got with his friends and they complained to the airport manager.> > > > >
> > > > > Mike,> > Thank you, you have made my point. Whatever you were do
ing > > scared the groundlings enough to complain. Yes, there are the > > o
ccasional nut-cases sitting at the ends of runways, but they are > > usuall
y notorious and are ignored by airport managers and the local > > FAA. Yet
you said you were doing something new and that there were > > multiple comp
laints. And interestingly enough these complaints were > > sufficient to ma
ke the airport manager threaten you, either because > > of their nature, or
because the status of who made them. As a result > > you have jeopardized
that airport's future, and put yet another nail > > in the coffin of genera
l aviation. What happened? Let's address the > > possibilities:> > > > 1. Y
ou were doing something illegal and unsafe. Is any discussion necessary?> >
> > 2. You were doing something legal and unsafe. Discussion?> > > > 3. Yo
u were doing something illegal and safe. The rules we fly by are > > design
ed, in large part, to keep everyone safe. You and I both know > > it is pos
sible to fly outside the rules and be perfectly safe. What's > > the point?
Some of the rules are designed to give the groundlings a > > perception of
safety, to keep us out of the public eye. You and I > > both know we can f
ly within 50' of anything and anybody in perfect > > safety, yet it scares
the crap out of the un-informed when we do it. > > Thus the rule that says
stay 500' away from anything that might > > contain a human. (My paraphrase
.) There are others. (Do we really > > need 1000' AGL pattern altitudes? Wh
at's wrong with flying under > > bridges? Why can't we land on public prope
rty in CA where there are > > huge dry lake beds? Why can't we land on road
s?)> > > > 4. You were doing something legal and safe. If this is the case
you > > should seriously consider a small educational effort wherein you ge
t > > together with the complainants and explain what you were doing and >
> why, why it was legal, and more importantly, why it was safe. (Maybe > >
the airport manager should attend, too.) You will then have removed > > you
r's and maybe a few other's nails from the GA coffin. Yes I know > > it's a
n effort, but after all, it's your nail.> > > > > > Guy Buchanan> > San Die
go, CA> > K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
> > > I didn't prove any of your points.> > I must have done something unsa
fe. BS> > I didn't do anything wrong, all I did was do touch and go's on al
l runways.> > I asked another pilot about this and he immediately said, Oh
you did touch and> go's on all runways, that's enough to piss people off at
that airport.> > I guess the point I'm trying to get out here is the fact
that there are so called> pilots out there that want to see the classic fly
ing of student pilots. > BY THE BOOK.> > All I can say is let people go aro
und turning pilots in, it will keep the airwaves> free, more spacing for me
. I have a terrible time with pilots that are not> proficient. They constan
tly turn in front of me on final, turn into my flight> path on take off(par
allel runways), pop out on the runway at the hold short> lines when I'm on
final. If it will discourage pilots from flying, (fear of> being turned int
o the FAA). THen great, it will keep those idiots out of the> sky.> > -----
---> kitfoxmike> model IV, 1200> speedster> 912ul> building > RV7a> slowbui
ld wings, fuse, finish kit> "if you're not getting razzed from pilots
or the FAA then you're not flying> enough"> Do not archive> > > Read t
his topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156
404#156404> > > ________________________________ Message 9 ________________
_____________________> > > Time: 02:16:56 PM PST US> From: Guy Buchanan <bn
n@nethere.com>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Rule breakers Was: Re: This feud
isn't pretty!> > > At 01:04 PM 1/6/2008, you wrote:> >I guess the point I'm
trying to get out here is the fact that there > >are so called pilots out
there that want to see the classic flying > >of student pilots.> >BY THE BO
OK.> > Mike,> What did you do that might not have been "BY THE BOOK". > Cer
tainly not doing touch and goes on all runways; that's what > they're for.
I think you're saying that what you did was both legal > and safe. If so, w
hy don't you work with the airport manager to > explain that to the complai
ners? Then you'll be free to continue with > that activity.> > > Guy Buchan
an> San Diego, CA> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to B
ob Ducar. > > > ________________________________ Message 10 _______________
_____________________> > > Time: 04:43:00 PM PST US> Subject: Kitfox-List:
KF-1 tail wheel and door frames> From: "AKFLYERBOB" <r.wolfejr@worldnet.att
.net>> > > looking for a tailwheel assembly w/speing and > door frames or f
rame kit> > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/v
iewtopic.php?p=156451#156451> > > ________________________________ Messag
e 11 ____________________________________> > > Time: 05:14:43 PM PST US> Fr
om: "Dee Young" <henrysfork1@msn.com>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: KF-1 tail
wheel and door frames> > Contact John or Debra McBean at Kitfox they can he
lp I am sure. > > Dee Young> Model II N345DY> > Do not archive> > ----- Ori
ginal Message ----- > From: AKFLYERBOB<mailto:r.wolfejr@worldnet.att.net> >
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com<mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com> > Sent: Su
nday, January 06, 2008 5:42 PM> Subject: Kitfox-List: KF-1 tail wheel and d
oor frames> > > <r.wolfejr@worldnet.att.net<mailto:r.wolfejr@worldnet.att.n
et>>> > looking for a tailwheel assembly w/speing and > door frames or fram
e kit> > > Read this topic online here:> > > http://forums.matronics.com/vi
ewtopic.php?p=156451#156451<http://forums> matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p
=156451#156451>> > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List<http:
//www.matronics.com/N> avigator?Kitfox-List>> > > http://www.matronics.com/
contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi> on>> > > ________________
________________ Message 12 ____________________________________> > > Time:
05:33:25 PM PST US> From: Clint Bazzill <clint_bazzill@hotmail.com>> Subje
ct: Kitfox-List: Vortex generators> > > Here is a short clip of video with
vortex generators> > More and articles later. Clint> > > http://www.youtube
.com/profile?user=ClintsKitfox> > ________________________________ Messag
e 13 ____________________________________> > > Time: 08:12:30 PM PST US> Fr
om: "Dee Young" <henrysfork1@msn.com>> Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox constru
ction> > My model II has been down for a time with mag problems. I have mad
e the > necessary repairs and it runs good. There have been several other i
tems > that have been a bother since I built the plane. One has been cold >
starting problems. From reading posts on this list I learned that the > ca
ble size is a major consideration. I have changed to a larger cable > now a
nd the plane spins over nicely and starts good. The second was the > coolin
g shroud looked lousy. I have taken the time to rebuild the > cooling shrou
d using 6061 T6 aluminum. I finished the fitting and > assembly today. It s
ure looks a lot better than the old one and it is > also much more substant
ial. Rivnuts are great.> > I am sure no one really cares about all this stu
ff but I think its good > to remind ourselves the value of the list. I thin
k we sometime forget > how much help it can provide for those in the buildi
ng process. I am one > of the guys out here that had no aviation experience
at all when I > started the build and I live in an area where there was no
one to ask > for help. The only place to get answers was here. I really li
ke reading > the posts and continue to learn a lot of good stuff from the m
ore > experienced folks. > > Dee Young> Kitfox II > N345DY > KFM 112> > Do
not archive. > > ________________________________ Message 14 ______________
______________________> > > Time: 10:17:05 PM PST US> From: Clint Bazzill <
clint_bazzill@hotmail.com>> Subject: Kitfox-List: > > > Hi Brent,> > Try ba
rnstormers, google and see what you come up with. The Kitfox list is> kitfo
x-list@matronics.com> > Clint will keep you posted and thanks for the call.
> > ________________________________ Message 15 ___________________________
_________> > > Time: 11:36:33 PM PST US> From: "A Smith" <kitfox@ida.net>>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Reality check, it is time> > > Much to the dismay of
our moderator, this has nothing to do with Kitfox. (I > like to do that som
etimes) Without this, there there is no group.> > THE DREAM> The first memo
ry of my childhood is that of my father and me in the park. > Flying. It wa
s a model that he had built. He would throw it and the children > of the ne
ighborhood would run after it until it landed. That is until it was > stepp
ed on in the hurry to get it first. The closest one got to pick it up > and
bring it back. An honor and time I am sure long forgotten by all. Except >
one. I did not run after the plane. I stood in fascination. The beauty of
it > flitting around on the air. Nobody could touch it until it came back f
rom > the safety of the winds to the confines and rigors of the earth. I kn
ew at > that moment that I had to have that freedom, that safety.> Years of
sitting at airports watching the planes come and go, the pilots > with the
re air of superiority about them. Afraid ot let them catch me > looking at
them for what they might do. Amazed at how they handled those > long wings
on the ground. Maneuvering them between all the other planes that > were pa
rked. Then the day came. My father was taking flying lessons in an > Aeroco
upe. He was going to go do some solo time and the plane needed fuel. > He t
old me to get in and steer it while he pushed it to the FBO. I do not > kno
w why the truck didn"t just drive down to it. I have a pretty good idea > t
hough. I climbed into the cockpit and settled into the seat. To short to >
see anything. I wasn't going to let that little inconvenience stop me > tho
ugh. I could stretch and see just fine. He showed me how to steer it. And >
as he climbed down, withour turning around said, "watch the wings, and kee
p > it centered." We started to move. My dad, the power. Me at the controls
. And > boy did I watch the wings. Like a hawk on the first leap from the n
est. It > was only a few hundred feet to the truck. And I am sure it was ke
pt somewhat > centered. Which probably added another few hundreed feet. I d
id not say > anything then. But dad could have pushed me back and forth all
day long. I > never told anybody, They would not believe me anyway. That w
as my private > taste for the feeling of the freedom to flying. Like a chil
d, it is not > reality at first. Until one day, like conception, there is n
o turning back. > And there it sits. Steel, Aluminum, plastic. A stranger i
n your area. Yet > there is a bond that already exists. You can feel it whe
n you are near. I > seems to reach out to you. And as that of the birth of
a child. It starts. > You mold and shape. Touch and check every square inch
. Just waiting for the > slightest hint of a problem. If there is, you atta
ck it with ferocity. > Defending your own blood. There are the doubters and
the non beleavers. You > don't listen. It doesn't matter what it does. Goo
d or bad. You molded it > after yourself, Its's perfect. It's the DREAM.> T
his is what keeps us all together> > > ________________________________ Mes
sage 16 ____________________________________> > > Time: 11:47:08 PM PST US>
From: "A Smith" <kitfox@ida.net>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox constru
ction> > Dee > Do not think that no one cares. It is all important. The gro
up seems to > be loosing something. It is not anyone in particular. It is h
ard to put > a finger on. Glad to hear of your alum. bending fun. Tell me a
bout it. > After all, it is Kitfox related. I like to work with alum. but I
am not > even close to what some of the people on the list can do. I figur
e if it > is straight or I really meant to bend it it is good. Got some pic
s??? > You can send them to me off list. Do not want to offend the moderato
=======================> > >
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Reality check, it is time |
At 07:49 AM 1/7/2008, you wrote:
>Our moderators have forgotten what the list is about. We have one who does
>not want any friendship on the list and one who is king, he knows more than
>anyone and will argue for page after page to prove it.
Please be advised that this is not an open invitation to debate the
merits of the moderators. If you wish to reply one way or another
please do so off-list.
Thank you,
Guy Buchanan, Kitfox List Moderator
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Reality check, it is time |
John sez:
>Our moderators have forgotten what the list is about. We have one who does
>not want any friendship on the list and one who is king, he knows more than
>anyone and will argue for page after page to prove it.
This would be really funny if you weren't being sincere.
I usually (but not always, I'll admit) spend some time carefully
wording my comments to be clear but I've come to realize that it
doesn't really matter at all. Everyone on the list will interpret
what you said differently and run off half-cocked starting 26 new
conversations on all the different things I never said.
Oh well...
Mike G.
Kitfox List Moderator
P.S. So, am I the king or the unfriendly one?
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Reality check, it is time |
THE DREAM
Albert, Sir,
We have never met.........
It would be a honor if that day ever arrived.
Thank you.
Steve B
On Jan 7, 2008 2:31 AM, A Smith <kitfox@ida.net> wrote:
>
> Much to the dismay of our moderator, this has nothing to do with Kitfox.
> (I
> like to do that sometimes) Without this, there there is no group.
>
> THE DREAM
> The first memory of my childhood is that of my father and me in the park.
> Flying. It was a model that he had built. He would throw it and the
> children
> of the neighborhood would run after it until it landed. That is until it
> was
> stepped on in the hurry to get it first. The closest one got to pick it up
> and bring it back. An honor and time I am sure long forgotten by all.
> Except
> one. I did not run after the plane. I stood in fascination. The beauty of
> it
> flitting around on the air. Nobody could touch it until it came back from
> the safety of the winds to the confines and rigors of the earth. I knew at
> that moment that I had to have that freedom, that safety.
> Years of sitting at airports watching the planes come and go, the pilots
> with there air of superiority about them. Afraid ot let them catch me
> looking at them for what they might do. Amazed at how they handled those
> long wings on the ground. Maneuvering them between all the other planes
> that
> were parked. Then the day came. My father was taking flying lessons in an
> Aerocoupe. He was going to go do some solo time and the plane needed fuel.
> He told me to get in and steer it while he pushed it to the FBO. I do not
> know why the truck didn"t just drive down to it. I have a pretty good idea
> though. I climbed into the cockpit and settled into the seat. To short to
> see anything. I wasn't going to let that little inconvenience stop me
> though. I could stretch and see just fine. He showed me how to steer it.
> And
> as he climbed down, withour turning around said, "watch the wings, and
> keep
> it centered." We started to move. My dad, the power. Me at the controls.
> And
> boy did I watch the wings. Like a hawk on the first leap from the nest. It
> was only a few hundred feet to the truck. And I am sure it was kept
> somewhat
> centered. Which probably added another few hundreed feet. I did not say
> anything then. But dad could have pushed me back and forth all day long. I
> never told anybody, They would not believe me anyway. That was my private
> taste for the feeling of the freedom to flying. Like a child, it is not
> reality at first. Until one day, like conception, there is no turning
> back.
> And there it sits. Steel, Aluminum, plastic. A stranger in your area. Yet
> there is a bond that already exists. You can feel it when you are near. I
> seems to reach out to you. And as that of the birth of a child. It starts.
> You mold and shape. Touch and check every square inch. Just waiting for
> the
> slightest hint of a problem. If there is, you attack it with ferocity.
> Defending your own blood. There are the doubters and the non beleavers.
> You
> don't listen. It doesn't matter what it does. Good or bad. You molded it
> after yourself, Its's perfect. It's the DREAM.
> This is what keeps us all together
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Wing Tank Fuel Finger Strainers |
My Kitfox was originally built in 1994. So, I think it is about time to remove
and check the finger strainers in the wing tanks. Has anyone on the list removed
their finger strainers from the fiberglass wing tanks and if so are there
any issues of concern getting the strainers out without damaging the tank threads?
Jimmie
Message 9
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| Subject: | Current events/ski story |
Just a general observation about this "movie" that's playing. It
seems as though I've seen this one before, and I think this is the
part where several of the "cast" get indignant, walk out and start a
splinter group. Sometimes they come back, apparently missing some of
the regular cast of characters, and some don't. I've got a short
memory, and can't recall just what happened when this movie played
before. But it was a good movie, and so I'll stay and watch it again.
Who knows, maybe somebody edited it while it was awaiting reruns, and
it'll be different this time around. That's why I'll be waiting and
watching, having my popcorn and soda, and enjoying the show, maybe
even booing or hissing, but as always thoroughly entertained and
enlightened.
Curious thing about splinters....sometimes a real pain, but sometimes
you just have to let them work themselves out.
I just finished reinforcing my homebuilt snow skis that I'm using on
my Kitfox IV. I had a close encounter of the first kind [to continue
the movie theme :) ] with a frozen snow bank the other day, and bent
the tips of my skis up. They bent just ahead of where the last
diagonal brace departs with the main side rails. I like the bend up,
but they weren't equal, so I re-bent the ski with the larger bend to
match the other, and then added a diagonal bend from the VERY tip of
the skis back to the main cluster. This current temperature of 57F
and two days of rain has knocked our previous foot of snow out
completely, so this is the perfect time for me to do the repair. The
skis flew perfectly after the bending took place, and even allowed
the skis to climb a little higher above the deep snow. I had always
felt that I needed a little more up-bend at the fronts, and now I
have it, thanks to good old Mother Nature.
Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/450+ hrs
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Tank Fuel Finger Strainers |
I removed mine when I did the flush and re-kreeme job, Jimmie. I
didn't have any problem. I reinserted the finger strainers, using a
Permatex Aviation product...just can't recall the proper name of
it...some kind of gasket maker stuff.
Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/450+ hrs
On Jan 7, 2008, at 3:36 PM, <jimmieblackwell@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>
> My Kitfox was originally built in 1994. So, I think it is about
> time to remove and check the finger strainers in the wing tanks.
> Has anyone on the list removed their finger strainers from the
> fiberglass wing tanks and if so are there any issues of concern
> getting the strainers out without damaging the tank threads?
>
> Jimmie
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | This feud isn't pretty! |
It's a dirty job (sometimes) but one that has to be done. Thank God or to
whom it may concern there are people there to do it!
My 2 cents CDN (at close to parity)
Noel Loveys
Mod III-A getting a 912
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fox5flyer
Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: This feud isn't pretty!
Excellent post Rick. It's good to hear from someone who speaks with
experience from being close to the action.
My purpose in writing this is to give a short blurb on my own thoughts and
experiences regarding the FAA, mostly from the air traffic control side.
I first earned my private license in early 1970, then commercial sometime in
1971, while holding down an air traffic control (ATC) job that I retired
from in 1988. I had plenty of interaction with FAA in various assignments,
including Seattle ARTCC. As a pilot or ATC at no time was I ever
unnecessarily hassled about anything. Every fed that I came into contact
with was courteous, knowledgeable, and helpful. I, like a lot of others on
this list, have spent my fair share of time hanging around airports, whether
it was flying, working on my airplane, attending get-togethers, or just
sitting around in the terminal having coffee listening to and participating
in the conversations. Lots of camaraderie. However, one thing that always
bothered me was the occasional person who would take every opportunity to
hammer the FAA about something. Usually it was things like "I never talk to
air traffic control", then go on about some anecdotal story picked up about
somebody being vectored out of their way near a busy airport, or something
along that level. There are also those who vehemently make it known how
they refuse to use their radios or transponders around congested areas,
preferring to fly right through without talking to ATC. Their reasons are
usually something like "I don't need the hassle of the feds", or something
along that line. This always makes me cringe. I could post a lot of the
usual stories, but they never seem to change much, and always come from the
same types of people. It was difficult for me to keep quiet while hearing
this sort of talk (still is) because I knew most of it was embellished BS
(hangar talk). Unfortunately, there are often very naive and inexperienced
pilots around who are listening and, like sponges, they soak it right up and
it later becomes very difficult to change their minds about it. "First
learned is best learned". Sure, like anything else, the FAA is not
perfect. Unfortunately, there are the occasional problems within the FAA
like the Bob Hoover debacle, but they are rare.
Everyone of us pays the taxes that puts ATC in place and pays the wages of
those guys and gals who are trying to do their job which is providing a safe
and orderly flow of traffic. They are highly trained and with few
exceptions, are very capable and willing to help. Personally, I use ATC at
every opportunity for flight following. I don't fly IMC and I don't file
IFR, but I definitely like to know that I am being seen on radar by someone
who has the ability to keep me safe from other pilots out there who may not
be able to see me. One big plus for flight following that is very important
to me is that if I have a problem that may threaten continued flight, I
already have instant contact with ATC who knows exactly where I am and
should I have to make an emergency landing, rescue would be quick.
I'm sure there will be some "yeah, but..." replies and that is OK, but if
this helps to change the mindset of at least one person, I'm satisfied.
Now, on a Kitfox note, I'll be bringing my airplane down to the shop today
to start the annual.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT
"Nothing will ever be attempted, if all possible objections must first be
overcome".- Samuel Johnson
Guys/Gals,
Excuse the previous blank email, somehow my computer decided it was time to
send it out. I'm innocent. I didn't even touch a key, go figure.
I did want to mention something that might be helpful to all of us. I
retired from the FAA in 1997 and I held a number of relatively high
positions on the engineering side of the Agency. I did work a lot with
flight standards folks, the regulators of aviation. I can say this about
them, they all (with very few exceptions) got into the FAA because they
loved aviation. Some were always GA and some a combination of military and
GA, but all like their jobs, be they pilots or mechanics.
The inspectors get very regimented training on the rules before they
interface with the public. They all are serious about safety and their main
mission is to protect the ' innocent public' and then the aviators. Many of
them would do anything to avoid citing a pilot or a technicality because it
means a lot of paperwork. Yes, there are some that look forward to the
opportunity to 'get someone', but the management in HQ tries to not let that
happen. For instance, at AirVenture there can be 20 or 30 inspectors
walking around and they are trained to not hassle the pilots, but to work
with the person if they see a problem. You probably have never even noticed
many of them when they are working on the ramp, unless they're wearing an
FAA name tag or shirt.
Given all this, when someone brings a problem to their attention, they
cannot ignore it. They are obligated to follow through and research the
complaint. Actually, that's what we, as taxpayers, expect from our
government employees. That being said, when we want something from the FAA
don't we expect them to work hard and get an answer in a reasonable time?
The real problem we face is how to interact with the inspector. If we show
a compliant attitude (do not read this as confessing to breaking a rule -
get an attorney before you even consider doing that) and strive for a safety
related outcome, it is possible to get off with just a warning, either
verbally or written. Once you do something that causes the inspector to be
concerned and he forwards his findings to the attorneys at FAA, all bets are
off. Attorneys work in a world of rules and sanctions. Once they get the
case they will do their attorney thing. It then becomes difficult to get a
compromise without professional (your attorney) help.
If you have a problem with a fellow aviator, confront him or her directly
and try to work it out. If you are doing something 'unexpected' or just
plain wrong and someone confronts you, explain it, accept the
responsibility, or if you choose to deny it, or do whatever you think is
appropriate, expect the FAA to come ask when the person you blew off decides
to call the feds. When you do that, at least you now know the process you
are about to enter. Remember, the rules will be enforced, right or wrong (I
mean whether the rule is right or wrong). if you don't like the rules,
petition the Agency to change it. The FAA is obligated to address that
request to. However,as we always say, the rules have been written, for the
most part, in the blood of the aviators who have gone west before us. They
aren't that onerous, they are our government's best attempt to draw the
limits on what is safe. Just don't place yourself in a position that will
allow the FAA inspector to interpret the rules. English is a tough language
and different words can be interpreted in different ways. Enter the
lawyers. This is where they make their careers. Don't give these folks the
opportunity to get awards, for getting you.
I apologize for going on, but as a fellow aviator, I don't want to see our
privileges (not rights) jeopardized by some of us operating as 'cowboys' and
stirring up the public (or other aviators) who then think they have to save
the world and go to the FAA.
Fly safe!
Rick Weiss
Kitfox Series V Speedster (soon to fly - I hope)
Daytona Beach
_____
Start the year off right. Easy
<http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489>
ways to stay in shape in the new year.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref
"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Reality check, it is time |
john oakley wrote:
>
> "Much to the dismay of our moderator, this has nothing to do with Kitfox. (I
> like to do that sometimes) Without this, there is no group."
>
> Albert,
> Our moderators have forgotten what the list is about. We have one who does
> not want any friendship on the list and one who is king, he knows more than
> anyone and will argue for page after page to prove it. I have thought hard
> about quitting the list but like many us of feel we need the list for us and
> the new builders, the experience's and energy behind this size group is
> nothing to waste.
> I have been on the list since 92, I have built 2 kitfox, I have flown 8
> different fox, dozens of other aircraft including war birds and heavy's. I
> hoped my experiences have helped someone. I know at least one person that
> was on the list what may have saved my life, pulling my cowl and pointing
> out the broken motor mount. Every year I try to complete some update to the
> bird, usually using information found on the list. I salute all of you who
> have helped someone through a problem or a question. Please continue to help
> john and Debra continue their work. If you need a part give john and chance
> to provide it, at least ask if he can match the price. We need john to
> continue the line, this well help the pricing and continue the legacy that
> Dan Denny started building in his garage twenty five years ago. With 15
> years on the list, I guess you could call it a habit, I guess I can break
> the habit if I have to "I am a man and can change if I have to" (red-green)
>
> John Oakley
> Speedster 4 long and short wings
> 912 ul with cap
>
>
>
>
That is some good words 2 be proud of John..and U are right,,way 2
go..Steve Shinabery N554KF KF2 and the little 582 that could
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Tank Fuel Finger Strainers |
At 12:36 PM 1/7/2008, you wrote:
>Has anyone on the list removed their finger strainers from the
>fiberglass wing tanks and if so are there any issues of concern
>getting the strainers out without damaging the tank threads?
Jimmie,
I did it repeatedly during the first 40 hours and a few more
times after trying to find a sealant that would work. You're right
about the threads and that concern prompted me to leave them in at
the last annual. The answer obviously depends on what sealant was
used to install them. If they were epoxied in, you're probably stuck
with them. (Bad pun intended.) (It's possible the brass will release
from the epoxy, but unlikely. More likely the epoxy will ball-up,
distorting the hole significantly. Nearly any other sealant should
shear before the glass and brass so you should be able to remove them
without trouble. Don't heat the tank to soften the sealant, not just
because of the gas inside, but because the vinyl-ester resin used to
make them is not intended for high temperatures.
By the way, the only sealant I've gotten to work with 100LL
is two-part polysulfide:
(http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/proseal.php)
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Tank Fuel Finger Strainers |
Jimmie:
My '94 strainers were installed with Permaseal (Permatex?) aviation gasket
goo. I gently heated up the strainers and tank area around them with a heat
gun (no fuel in the tanks, caps off, it takes a bit of time) and the
strainers very easily came right out. Before heating they were rock solid
and I was afraid of damaging the threads. Heating would work with most
sealants I would suspect.
Hope this helps.
Robert Beck
>
> My Kitfox was originally built in 1994. So, I think it is about time to
> remove and check the finger strainers in the wing tanks. Has anyone on
> the list removed their finger strainers from the fiberglass wing tanks and
> if so are there any issues of concern getting the strainers out without
> damaging the tank threads?
>
> Jimmie
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Current events/ski story |
"This current temperature of 57F
and two days of rain has knocked our previous foot of snow out
completely, "
Lynn,
Do you, or are you having, a humidity problem inside your hanger with the
weather being what it is the last few days?
If so, any sugestion on how to stop or at least control it, other then just
better air circulation?
Steve Benesh
Milford Mi.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Reality check, it is time |
John:
It's," I'm a man, I can change, if I have to... I guess...
Noel
III-A getting four stroke power.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of john oakley
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 12:20 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Reality check, it is time
"Much to the dismay of our moderator, this has nothing to do with Kitfox. (I
like to do that sometimes) Without this, there is no group."
Albert,
Our moderators have forgotten what the list is about. We have one who does
not want any friendship on the list and one who is king, he knows more than
anyone and will argue for page after page to prove it. I have thought hard
about quitting the list but like many us of feel we need the list for us and
the new builders, the experience's and energy behind this size group is
nothing to waste.
I have been on the list since 92, I have built 2 kitfox, I have flown 8
different fox, dozens of other aircraft including war birds and heavy's. I
hoped my experiences have helped someone. I know at least one person that
was on the list what may have saved my life, pulling my cowl and pointing
out the broken motor mount. Every year I try to complete some update to the
bird, usually using information found on the list. I salute all of you who
have helped someone through a problem or a question. Please continue to help
john and Debra continue their work. If you need a part give john and chance
to provide it, at least ask if he can match the price. We need john to
continue the line, this well help the pricing and continue the legacy that
Dan Denny started building in his garage twenty five years ago. With 15
years on the list, I guess you could call it a habit, I guess I can break
the habit if I have to "I am a man and can change if I have to" (red-green)
John Oakley
Speedster 4 long and short wings
912 ul with cap
Message 17
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| Subject: | Wing Tank Fuel Finger Strainers |
I made that part of my annual. Good thing to check for sure. Should seal
without any sealants, but don't guess it could hurt unless your one of
those anal weight types. :)
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
jimmieblackwell@austin.rr.com
Sent: 2008-01-07 12:37
Subject: Kitfox-List: Wing Tank Fuel Finger Strainers
My Kitfox was originally built in 1994. So, I think it is about time to
remove and check the finger strainers in the wing tanks. Has anyone on
the list removed their finger strainers from the fiberglass wing tanks
and if so are there any issues of concern getting the strainers out
without damaging the tank threads?
Jimmie
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Current events/ski story |
I meant to say that I added a diagonal BRACE from the very tip of the
skis back to the main cluster...sorry.
Lynn
On Jan 7, 2008, at 12:27 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote:
> equal, so I re-bent the ski with the larger bend to match the
> other, and then added a diagonal bend from the VERY tip of the skis
> back to the main cluster. This current temperature of 57F and two
> days of rain has knocked our previous foot of snow out completely,
> so this is the perfect time for me to do the repair. The skis flew
> perfectly after the bending took place, and even allowed the skis
> to climb a little higher above the deep snow. I had always felt
> that I needed a little more up-bend at the fronts, and now I have
> it, thanks to good old Mother Nature.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Grass Lake, Michigan
> Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
> flying w/450+ hrs
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Current events/ski story |
I just went to my hangar today, and there was moisture all over the
fabric, but none in the vicinity of the engine. I have been using a
200 watt strip heater that lays under the engine between the oil
cooler and the oil pan. This keeps the entire engine warm, and a
insulated blanket over the cowl keeps the heat within the cowl. I
think that just opening the hangar doors and leaving them open would
*maybe* keep the humidity down, but I'm not sure. I'm gonna try that
tomorrow.
I'm really tickled pink with the way this strip heater keeps the
engine warm. Lately, with the temp outside around 20-30 F., I've been
seeing oil temp of about 100, cyl head temp of about 75, and cowl
temp of about 75 before ever starting the engine, just by having this
strip heater going 24 hours. I mentioned this heater in a post on Jan
1, asking for any input from folks regarding any negative aspects
that using this heater might bring about, but got no response. Maybe
mentioning it again now will bring some answers?
Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/450+ hrs
On Jan 7, 2008, at 10:13 PM, 84KF wrote:
> "This current temperature of 57F
> and two days of rain has knocked our previous foot of snow out
> completely, "
>
> Lynn,
> Do you, or are you having, a humidity problem inside your hanger
> with the weather being what it is the last few days?
>
> If so, any sugestion on how to stop or at least control it, other
> then just better air circulation?
>
> Steve Benesh
> Milford Mi.
> www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List _-
> www.matronics.com/contribution _-
> ===========================================================
Message 20
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| Subject: | Reality check, it is time |
Noel, thanks, I just can't seem to get it right. :-) I know who is using
duct tape now.... :-)
John Oakley
Loving my kitfox 4 speedster in saltlake
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 8:18 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Reality check, it is time
John:
It's," I'm a man, I can change, if I have to... I guess...
Noel
III-A getting four stroke power.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of john oakley
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 12:20 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Reality check, it is time
"Much to the dismay of our moderator, this has nothing to do with Kitfox. (I
like to do that sometimes) Without this, there is no group."
Albert,
Our moderators have forgotten what the list is about. We have one who does
not want any friendship on the list and one who is king, he knows more than
anyone and will argue for page after page to prove it. I have thought hard
about quitting the list but like many us of feel we need the list for us and
the new builders, the experience's and energy behind this size group is
nothing to waste.
I have been on the list since 92, I have built 2 kitfox, I have flown 8
different fox, dozens of other aircraft including war birds and heavy's. I
hoped my experiences have helped someone. I know at least one person that
was on the list what may have saved my life, pulling my cowl and pointing
out the broken motor mount. Every year I try to complete some update to the
bird, usually using information found on the list. I salute all of you who
have helped someone through a problem or a question. Please continue to help
john and Debra continue their work. If you need a part give john and chance
to provide it, at least ask if he can match the price. We need john to
continue the line, this well help the pricing and continue the legacy that
Dan Denny started building in his garage twenty five years ago. With 15
years on the list, I guess you could call it a habit, I guess I can break
the habit if I have to "I am a man and can change if I have to" (red-green)
John Oakley
Speedster 4 long and short wings
912 ul with cap
Message 21
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| Subject: | Current events/ski story |
You got to watch those drifts. I had a friend who flew a 180 in the back of
Labrador. One winter he landed close to Goose Bay and hit a drift that
flicked the main gear straight out to the sides and bent the be$%^&* out of
the prop. Your encounter seems to me to be constructive rather than
destructive.
Noel
III-A
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 1:58 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Current events/ski story
Just a general observation about this "movie" that's playing. It
seems as though I've seen this one before, and I think this is the
part where several of the "cast" get indignant, walk out and start a
splinter group. Sometimes they come back, apparently missing some of
the regular cast of characters, and some don't. I've got a short
memory, and can't recall just what happened when this movie played
before. But it was a good movie, and so I'll stay and watch it again.
Who knows, maybe somebody edited it while it was awaiting reruns, and
it'll be different this time around. That's why I'll be waiting and
watching, having my popcorn and soda, and enjoying the show, maybe
even booing or hissing, but as always thoroughly entertained and
enlightened.
Curious thing about splinters....sometimes a real pain, but sometimes
you just have to let them work themselves out.
I just finished reinforcing my homebuilt snow skis that I'm using on
my Kitfox IV. I had a close encounter of the first kind [to continue
the movie theme :) ] with a frozen snow bank the other day, and bent
the tips of my skis up. They bent just ahead of where the last
diagonal brace departs with the main side rails. I like the bend up,
but they weren't equal, so I re-bent the ski with the larger bend to
match the other, and then added a diagonal bend from the VERY tip of
the skis back to the main cluster. This current temperature of 57F
and two days of rain has knocked our previous foot of snow out
completely, so this is the perfect time for me to do the repair. The
skis flew perfectly after the bending took place, and even allowed
the skis to climb a little higher above the deep snow. I had always
felt that I needed a little more up-bend at the fronts, and now I
have it, thanks to good old Mother Nature.
Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/450+ hrs
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