---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 01/07/08: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:13 AM - Re: Vortex generators (dave) 2. 05:28 AM - Is Faster Better? (RRTRACK@aol.com) 3. 08:27 AM - Re: Reality check, it is time (john oakley) 4. 01:21 PM - Re: Kitfox-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 01/06/08 (matthew stone) 5. 02:22 PM - Re: Re: Reality check, it is time (Guy Buchanan) 6. 02:22 PM - Re: Reality check, it is time (Michael Gibbs) 7. 02:41 PM - Re: Reality check, it is time (84KF) 8. 03:24 PM - Wing Tank Fuel Finger Strainers () 9. 05:50 PM - Current events/ski story (Lynn Matteson) 10. 06:06 PM - Re: Wing Tank Fuel Finger Strainers (Lynn Matteson) 11. 06:21 PM - Re: This feud isn't pretty! (Noel Loveys) 12. 06:38 PM - Re: Reality check, it is time (shinco) 13. 06:40 PM - Re: Wing Tank Fuel Finger Strainers (Guy Buchanan) 14. 06:54 PM - Re: Wing Tank Fuel Finger Strainers (W & R Beck) 15. 07:30 PM - Re: Current events/ski story (84KF) 16. 08:18 PM - Re: Reality check, it is time (Noel Loveys) 17. 08:19 PM - Re: Wing Tank Fuel Finger Strainers (Rick) 18. 08:24 PM - Re: Current events/ski story (Lynn Matteson) 19. 08:43 PM - Re: Current events/ski story (Lynn Matteson) 20. 08:44 PM - Re: Reality check, it is time (john oakley) 21. 08:51 PM - Re: Current events/ski story (Noel Loveys) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:13:06 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Vortex generators From: "dave" Good stuff Clint , looking forward to seeing this report. Her is one of my videos flying with Vgs. I am going to have to get some more done with stall testing too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjKkuLUpOnQ -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada Flying Videos and Kitfox Info http://www.cfisher.com/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156505#156505 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:28:01 AM PST US From: RRTRACK@aol.com Subject: Kitfox-List: Is Faster Better? After Flying an Avid "B" I built for 20 years I bought an RV-6A with an 0-360. These are great airplanes and it performed as well or better than Van's performance charts showed. I could cruise at 180 MPH @ 10 GPH. My test flight was a two hundred mile flight down the Colorado River, doesn't get much better than that! The only time you need the rudder is to take off and land. But I missed the STOL performance of the Avid and sold the RV-6A and bought the Kitfox 5 I now fly. I like to fly the Kitfox far more than the RV. Most flights are just for pleasure more than getting anywhere. The Kitfox is fun and economical to fly. I can cruise at 115 MPH on less than 5 GPH of auto fuel with the 912 UL. I owned the RV for a year and a half and sold it for more than I bought it for, so resale value is very good with the RV's. The used Kitfox I bought was about half the cost of building one, and I am sure it took around 1500 hours to build. A great value for the money. My next Kitfox will have floats and the 912S. Can't let Paul Seehafer have all the fun! Also thanks to everyone who takes those great videos of flying in there areas of the world. They are truly inspiring and keep us all motivated. Mark Kitfox 5 Vixen 912UL IVO Hartford, Wisconsin **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:27:33 AM PST US From: "john oakley" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Reality check, it is time "Much to the dismay of our moderator, this has nothing to do with Kitfox. (I like to do that sometimes) Without this, there is no group." Albert, Our moderators have forgotten what the list is about. We have one who does not want any friendship on the list and one who is king, he knows more than anyone and will argue for page after page to prove it. I have thought hard about quitting the list but like many us of feel we need the list for us and the new builders, the experience's and energy behind this size group is nothing to waste. I have been on the list since 92, I have built 2 kitfox, I have flown 8 different fox, dozens of other aircraft including war birds and heavy's. I hoped my experiences have helped someone. I know at least one person that was on the list what may have saved my life, pulling my cowl and pointing out the broken motor mount. Every year I try to complete some update to the bird, usually using information found on the list. I salute all of you who have helped someone through a problem or a question. Please continue to help john and Debra continue their work. If you need a part give john and chance to provide it, at least ask if he can match the price. We need john to continue the line, this well help the pricing and continue the legacy that Dan Denny started building in his garage twenty five years ago. With 15 years on the list, I guess you could call it a habit, I guess I can break the habit if I have to "I am a man and can change if I have to" (red-green) John Oakley Speedster 4 long and short wings 912 ul with cap ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:21:04 PM PST US From: matthew stone Subject: Kitfox-List: RE: Kitfox-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 01/06/08 I wish the system would kick this guys off until they can behave like adult s > Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 23:58:52 -0800> From: kitfox-list@matronics.com> To : kitfox-list-digest@matronics.com> Subject: Kitfox-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 01/06/08> > *> > =================== ======> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive> == =======================> > To day's complete Kitfox-List Digest can also be found in either of the > two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted > in H TML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes > and M essage Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version > of the Kitfox-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor > such as N otepad or with a web browser. > > HTML Version:> > http://www.matronics.com /digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 08-01-06&Archi ve=Kitfox> > Text Version:> > http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview. php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 08-01-06&Archive=Kitfox> > > = ======================> EMail V ersion of Today's List Digest Archive> ============ ===========> > > ------------------------------------ ----------------------> Kitfox-List Digest Archive> ---> Total Messages Pos ted Sun 01/06/08: 16> ----------------------------------------------------- -----> > > Today's Message Index:> ----------------------> > 1. 12:05 AM - Re: This feud isn't pretty! (Michael Gibbs)> 2. 01:50 AM - Re: Re: Short Ch anging Ourselves!! (Michel Verheughe)> 3. 05:57 AM - Re: This feud isn't pr etty! (fox5flyer)> 4. 08:05 AM - This feud isn't pretty! It's over. (Rexste r)> 5. 08:18 AM - Re: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! (Guy Buchanan)> 6. 09: 00 AM - Re: This feud isn't pretty! It's over. (Dan Billingsley)> 7. 11:52 AM - Re: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!! (Michel Verheughe)> 8. 01:06 PM - R ule breakers Was: Re: This feud isn't pretty! (kitfoxmike)> 9. 02:16 PM - R e: Rule breakers Was: Re: This feud isn't pretty! (Guy Buchanan)> 10. 04:43 PM - KF-1 tail wheel and door frames (AKFLYERBOB)> 11. 05:14 PM - Re: KF-1 tail wheel and door frames (Dee Young)> 12. 05:33 PM - Vortex generators ( Clint Bazzill)> 13. 08:12 PM - Kitfox construction (Dee Young)> 14. 10:17 P M - (Clint Bazzill)> 15. 11:36 PM - Reality check, it is time (A Smith)> 16 . 11:47 PM - Re: Kitfox construction (A Smith)> > > > _____________________ ___________ Message 1 _____________________________________> > > Time: 12:0 5:11 AM PST US> From: Michael Gibbs > Subject: Re: Ki tfox-List: This feud isn't pretty!> > > Rick sez:> > >...as a fellow aviato r, I don't want to see our privileges (not > >rights) jeopardized...> > Onl y government bureaucrats (and former bureaucrats) think they are > empowere d to issue "privileges". :-)> > Minor quibbles aside, there's a lot of wisd om in your post, Rick, > particularly with respect to the attitude an aviat or should maintain > while interacting with FAA officials. I am continually amazed at the > number of pilots that are happy to participate in argument s with > controllers on the radio. The best that could possibly be achieved > is a stalemate and the worst would be some type of enforcement > action. Swallowing your pride might be all it takes to put an end to > the problem and yet many just can't seem to do it.> > Maybe pilot training should incl ude a short session on diplomacy. :-)> > Mike G.> N728KF> Phoenix, AZ> > > ________________________________ Message 2 ________________________________ _____> > > Time: 01:50:13 AM PST US> From: Michel Verheughe > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!> > > On Jan 6 , 2008, at 6:21 AM, av8rps wrote:> > How many of the competitve airplanes h ave the ever so sweet and nimble > > handling the Kitfox has?> > I don't kn ow, Paul, I haven't been flying very much other planes than > my Kitfox. Wh at I know, though, is that the market here is changing for > the carbon-fib re water-drop speed machines. My former instructor just > bought a WT-9 Dyn amic. See the link: > http://web.lightsportaviation.se/index.php? > option =com_frontpage&Itemid=1&lang=en> Next summer, he intends to fly Norwa y-Spain non-stop in ten hours. He > flies about twice as fast as me in my K itfox. Speed seems to be the > argument here. I have seen this in my long e xperience with sailing and > yachting in general: The search for the extra knot of speed. But why?> Either the pleasure is to get there (on the water or in the air) or to > be there. If the latter then why not fly an airliner ? It's surely > faster!> > I love my Kitfox because ... it feels safe, simp le and ... it's mine. I > have seen women prettier than my wife but I won't change wife for that. > I am fortunate to be happy with what I have. There is nothing I am > missing with my Kitfox.> > Cheers,> Michel Verheughe> No rway> Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200> do not archive> > > _________________________ _______ Message 3 _____________________________________> > > Time: 05:57:15 AM PST US> From: "fox5flyer" > Subject: Re: Kitfo x-List: This feud isn't pretty!> > Excellent post Rick. It's good to hear f rom someone who speaks with > experience from being close to the action. > My purpose in writing this is to give a short blurb on my own thoughts > an d experiences regarding the FAA, mostly from the air traffic control > side . > I first earned my private license in early 1970, then commercial > some time in 1971, while holding down an air traffic control (ATC) job > that I retired from in 1988. I had plenty of interaction with FAA in > various ass ignments, including Seattle ARTCC. As a pilot or ATC at no > time was I eve r unnecessarily hassled about anything. Every fed that I > came into contac t with was courteous, knowledgeable, and helpful. I, > like a lot of others on this list, have spent my fair share of time > hanging around airports, whether it was flying, working on my airplane, > attending get-togethers, o r just sitting around in the terminal having > coffee listening to and part icipating in the conversations. Lots of > camaraderie. However, one thing t hat always bothered me was the > occasional person who would take every opp ortunity to hammer the FAA > about something. Usually it was things like "I never talk to air > traffic control", then go on about some anecdotal stor y picked up about > somebody being vectored out of their way near a busy ai rport, or > something along that level. There are also those who vehemently make it > known how they refuse to use their radios or transponders around > congested areas, preferring to fly right through without talking to ATC. > Their reasons are usually something like "I don't need the hassle of > t he feds", or something along that line. This always makes me cringe. > I co uld post a lot of the usual stories, but they never seem to change > much, and always come from the same types of people. It was difficult > for me to keep quiet while hearing this sort of talk (still is) because > I knew mos t of it was embellished BS (hangar talk). Unfortunately, > there are often very naive and inexperienced pilots around who are > listening and, like sp onges, they soak it right up and it later becomes > very difficult to chang e their minds about it. "First learned is best > learned". Sure, like anyth ing else, the FAA is not perfect. > Unfortunately, there are the occasional problems within the FAA like the > Bob Hoover debacle, but they are rare. > Everyone of us pays the taxes that puts ATC in place and pays the wages > of those guys and gals who are trying to do their job which is providing > a safe and orderly flow of traffic. They are highly trained and with > few exceptions, are very capable and willing to help. Personally, I use > ATC at every opportunity for flight following. I don't fly IMC and I > don't fi le IFR, but I definitely like to know that I am being seen on > radar by so meone who has the ability to keep me safe from other pilots > out there who may not be able to see me. One big plus for flight > following that is ver y important to me is that if I have a problem that > may threaten continued flight, I already have instant contact with ATC > who knows exactly where I am and should I have to make an emergency > landing, rescue would be quic k.> I'm sure there will be some "yeah, but..." replies and that is OK, but > if this helps to change the mindset of at least one person, I'm > satisfi ed.> Now, on a Kitfox note, I'll be bringing my airplane down to the shop > today to start the annual.> Deke Morisse> Mikado Michigan> S5/Subaru/CAP 3 55+ TT> "Nothing will ever be attempted, if all possible objections must fi rst > be overcome".- Samuel Johnson> > Guys/Gals,> > Excuse the previous bl ank email, somehow my computer decided it was > time to send it out. I'm in nocent. I didn't even touch a key, go > figure.> > I did want to mention so mething that might be helpful to all of us. I > retired from the FAA in 199 7 and I held a number of relatively high > positions on the engineering sid e of the Agency. I did work a lot with > flight standards folks, the regula tors of aviation. I can say this > about them, they all (with very few exce ptions) got into the FAA because > they loved aviation. Some were always GA and some a combination of > military and GA, but all like their jobs, be t hey pilots or mechanics.> > The inspectors get very regimented training on the rules before they > interface with the public. They all are serious abo ut safety and their > main mission is to protect the ' innocent public' and then the aviators. > Many of them would do anything to avoid citing a pilo t or a > technicality because it means a lot of paperwork. Yes, there are s ome > that look forward to the opportunity to 'get someone', but the > mana gement in HQ tries to not let that happen. For instance, at > AirVenture th ere can be 20 or 30 inspectors walking around and they are > trained to not hassle the pilots, but to work with the person if they > see a problem. Yo u probably have never even noticed many of them when > they are working on the ramp, unless they're wearing an FAA name tag or > shirt.> > Given all t his, when someone brings a problem to their attention, they > cannot ignore it. They are obligated to follow through and research the > complaint. Act ually, that's what we, as taxpayers, expect from our > government employees . That being said, when we want something from the > FAA don't we expect th em to work hard and get an answer in a reasonable > time?> > The real probl em we face is how to interact with the inspector. If we > show a compliant attitude (do not read this as confessing to breaking a > rule - get an atto rney before you even consider doing that) and strive > for a safety related outcome, it is possible to get off with just a > warning, either verbally or written. Once you do something that causes > the inspector to be concern ed and he forwards his findings to the > attorneys at FAA, all bets are off . Attorneys work in a world of rules > and sanctions. Once they get the cas e they will do their attorney > thing. It then becomes difficult to get a c ompromise without > professional (your attorney) help.> > If you have a pro blem with a fellow aviator, confront him or her > directly and try to work it out. If you are doing something > 'unexpected' or just plain wrong and s omeone confronts you, explain it, > accept the responsibility, or if you ch oose to deny it, or do whatever > you think is appropriate, expect the FAA to come ask when the person you > blew off decides to call the feds. When y ou do that, at least you now > know the process you are about to enter. Rem ember, the rules will be > enforced, right or wrong (I mean whether the rul e is right or wrong). > if you don't like the rules, petition the Agency to change it. The FAA > is obligated to address that request to. However,as w e always say, the > rules have been written, for the most part, in the bloo d of the aviators > who have gone west before us. They aren't that onerous, they are our > government's best attempt to draw the limits on what is saf e. Just > don't place yourself in a position that will allow the FAA inspec tor to > interpret the rules. English is a tough language and different wor ds > can be interpreted in different ways. Enter the lawyers. This is where > they make their careers. Don't give these folks the opportunity to get > awards, for getting you. > > I apologize for going on, but as a fellow avi ator, I don't want to see > our privileges (not rights) jeopardized by some of us operating as > 'cowboys' and stirring up the public (or other aviato rs) who then think > they have to save the world and go to the FAA. > > Fly safe!> > Rick Weiss> Kitfox Series V Speedster (soon to fly - I hope)> Day tona Beach> > > ----------------------------------------------------------- --------------> -----> Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. > > > ________________________________ Message 4 ________ _____________________________> > > Time: 08:05:35 AM PST US> From: "Rexster " > Subject: Kitfox-List: This feud isn't pretty! It's over.> > Deke and Rick,> Both of you make some excellent points here and yo ur positions are wel> l written. As a high school teacher for the past 33 y ears, I see all kin> ds of students and get to see some patterns. There are some great kids a> round who I can predict are on their ways to happy and successful career> s and lives. There are other kids who don't seem to unde rstand that you > can have a good time on evenings and weekends without doi ng things that > are wrong. These are the kids who state that they "don't l ike cops" and > feel that cops are out to get them.Their stories indicate t hat they have> n't learned how to enjoy life without being on the edge of b reaking the > law and then feel like the police are out to hassle them. My challange t> o them and all the students is to have a good time in life whi le always > making sure that their pleasure doesn't come at anyone else's e xpense. > > All of this transfers right over to us as pilots. I fly a lot. I'm very > involved with my EAA Chapter here in southeast Michigan and we e nd up in> volved with many airports and sometimes the FAA for Young Eagle f lights > and other activities. I'm thrilled that they are there and make su re tha> t they are happy we are there doing what we do. At no time have we ever > been hassled by the FAA, a controller, airport managers, the neighbo ring> public or anybody else. I think that anybody who feels they're not ab le> to enjoy life or aviation without being hassled by the cops or FAA simp > ly hasn't figured out how to have a good time without it being at other > people's expense. At school, we call it "people skills". It goes a long > way in life.> Enjoy,> Rex Phelps / Model 3 / 912UL / Warp / Michigan> > > - - "fox5flyer" wrote:> > Excellent post Rick. It's good to hear from someone who speaks with exp> erience from being close to the action. My purpose in writing this is t> o give a short blurb on my ow n thoughts and experiences regarding the FA> A, mostly from the air traffic control side. I first earned my private > license in early 1970, then comm ercial sometime in 1971, while holding d> own an air traffic control (ATC) job that I retired from in 1988. I had> plenty of interaction with FAA in v arious assignments, including Seattl> e ARTCC. As a pilot or ATC at no time was I ever unnecessarily hassled > about anything. Every fed that I came i nto contact with was courteous, > knowledgeable, and helpful. I, like a lot of others on this list, have > spent my fair share of time hanging around airports, whether it was flyi> ng, working on my airplane, attending get-to gethers, or just sitting ar> ound in the terminal having coffee listening t o and participating in the> conversations. Lots of camaraderie. However, on e thing that always bo> thered me was the occasional person who would take every opportunity to > hammer the FAA about something. Usually it was thing s like "I never tal> k to air traffic control", then go on about some anecd otal story picked > up about somebody being vectored out of their way near a busy airport, o> r something along that level. There are also those who v ehemently make > it known how they refuse to use their radios or transponde rs around cong> ested areas, preferring to fly right through without talkin g to ATC. Th> eir reasons are usually something like "I don't need the hass le of the f> eds", or something along that line. This always makes me cring e. I cou> ld post a lot of the usual stories, but they never seem to change much, > and always come from the same types of people. It was difficult fo r me > to keep quiet while hearing this sort of talk (still is) because I k new > most of it was embellished BS (hangar talk). Unfortunately, there are > often very naive and inexperienced pilots around who are listening and, > like sponges, they soak it right up and it later becomes very difficult > to change their minds about it. "First learned is best learned". Sure> , l ike anything else, the FAA is not perfect. Unfortunately, there are > the o ccasional problems within the FAA like the Bob Hoover debacle, but > they a re rare. Everyone of us pays the taxes that puts ATC in place an> d pays th e wages of those guys and gals who are trying to do their job w> hich is pr oviding a safe and orderly flow of traffic. They are highly t> rained and w ith few exceptions, are very capable and willing to help. P> ersonally, I u se ATC at every opportunity for flight following. I don't> fly IMC and I do n't file IFR, but I definitely like to know that I am b> eing seen on radar by someone who has the ability to keep me safe from o> ther pilots out the re who may not be able to see me. One big plus for f> light following that is very important to me is that if I have a problem> that may threaten cont inued flight, I already have instant contact with> ATC who knows exactly wh ere I am and should I have to make an emergency> landing, rescue would be q uick.I'm sure there will be some "yeah, but..> ." replies and that is OK, b ut if this helps to change the mindset of at> least one person, I'm satisfi ed.Now, on a Kitfox note, I'll be bringing> my airplane down to the shop to day to start the annual.Deke Morisse> Mikado Michigan> S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ T T> "Nothing will ever be attempted, if all possible objections must first b > e overcome".- Samuel Johnson Guys/Gals, Excuse the previous blank email,> somehow my computer decided it was time to send it out. I'm innocent. > I didn't even touch a key, go figure. I did want to mention something t> hat might be helpful to all of us. I retired from the FAA in 1997 and I> held a number of relatively high positions on the engineering side of t> he Agenc y. I did work a lot with flight standards folks, the regulators> of aviatio n. I can say this about them, they all (with very few except> ions) got int o the FAA because they loved aviation. Some were always GA> and some a comb ination of military and GA, but all like their jobs, be > they pilots or me chanics. The inspectors get very regimented training on> the rules before t hey interface with the public. They all are serious > about safety and thei r main mission is to protect the ' innocent public'> and then the aviators. Many of them would do anything to avoid citing > a pilot or a technicality because it means a lot of paperwork. Yes, the> re are some that look forwa rd to the opportunity to 'get someone', but t> he management in HQ tries to not let that happen. For instance, at AirV> enture there can be 20 or 30 i nspectors walking around and they are trai> ned to not hassle the pilots, b ut to work with the person if they see a > problem. You probably have never even noticed many of them when they ar> e working on the ramp, unless they 're wearing an FAA name tag or shirt. > Given all this, when someone brings a problem to their attention, they c> annot ignore it. They are obligated to follow through and research the > complaint. Actually, that's what we, a s taxpayers, expect from our gove> rnment employees. That being said, when we want something from the FAA > don't we expect them to work hard and get an answer in a reasonable time> ? The real problem we face is how to intera ct with the inspector. If we> show a compliant attitude (do not read this a s confessing to breaking a> rule - get an attorney before you even consider doing that) and strive > for a safety related outcome, it is possible to g et off with just a warn> ing, either verbally or written. Once you do somet hing that causes the > inspector to be concerned and he forwards his findin gs to the attorneys > at FAA, all bets are off. Attorneys work in a world o f rules and sancti> ons. Once they get the case they will do their attorney thing. It then> becomes difficult to get a compromise without professional (your attorn> ey) help. If you have a problem with a fellow aviator, confr ont him or h> er directly and try to work it out. If you are doing somethin g 'unexpec> ted' or just plain wrong and someone confronts you, explain it, accept t> he responsibility, or if you choose to deny it, or do whatever y ou think> is appropriate, expect the FAA to come ask when the person you bl ew off> decides to call the feds. When you do that, at least you now know t he p> rocess you are about to enter. Remember, the rules will be enforced, ri> ght or wrong (I mean whether the rule is right or wrong). if you don't > like the rules, petition the Agency to change it. The FAA is obligated > to address that request to. However,as we always say, the rules have be> en written, for the most part, in the blood of the aviators who have gon> e w est before us. They aren't that onerous, they are our government's b> est a ttempt to draw the limits on what is safe. Just don't place yourse> lf in a position that will allow the FAA inspector to interpret the rule> s. Engli sh is a tough language and different words can be interpreted i> n differen t ways. Enter the lawyers. This is where they make their car> eers. Don't g ive these folks the opportunity to get awards, for getting> you. I apologiz e for going on, but as a fellow aviator, I don't want> to see our privilege s (not rights) jeopardized by some of us operating > as 'cowboys' and stirr ing up the public (or other aviators) who then thi> nk they have to save th e world and go to the FAA. Fly safe! Rick WeissK> itfox Series V Speedster (soon to fly - I hope)Daytona Beach> > > Start the year off right. Easy way s to stay in shape in the new year. hr> ef="http://www.matronics.com/Navi gator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronh> ref="http://forums.matronics.com"> http://forums.matronics.comhref="h> ============ ============> ============ ============> ============ ============> ============ ============> ============ ============> ============ ============> ============ ============> => ________________________________ _____________________________> Find custom shirts that suit you to a " t"! Click now!> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2121/fc/Ioyw6i3nPo wfsSuVu1iD3UMXkotO> BGg0PJmUgfkmOurr25PlcLSNgf/> > ________________________ ________ Message 5 _____________________________________> > > Time: 08:18:5 3 AM PST US> From: Guy Buchanan > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List : Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!> > > At 01:47 AM 1/6/2008, you wrote:> >Ne xt summer, he intends to fly Norway-Spain non-stop in ten hours. He> >flies about twice as fast as me in my Kitfox. Speed seems to be the> >argument h ere.> > Michel,> Interesting enough, speed is all the rage here amongst the > Kitfox community; lots of work on drag reduction and increased > horsepo wer. It's unfortunate since I'm guessing it's only a matter of > time befor e some start trading their Kitfoxes in for the fast-glass machines.> > > Gu y Buchanan> San Diego, CA> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mos tly to Bob Ducar.> > Do not archive> > > ________________________________ M essage 6 _____________________________________> > > Time: 09:00:21 AM PST U S> From: Dan Billingsley > Subject: Re: Kitfox-L ist: This feud isn't pretty! It's over.> > Rex,> Well said...From one high school teacher to another.> Dan B> Mesa, AZ> KF-IV, 912s, 314DW> > Rexster wrote:> Deke and Rick,> Both of you make some excellen t points here and your positions are well written.> As a high school teache r for the past 33 years, I see all kinds of students> and get to see some p atterns. There are some great kids around who I can predict> are on their w ays to happy and successful careers and lives. There are> other kids who do n't seem to understand that you can have a good time on evenings> and weeke nds without doing things that are wrong. These are the kids who state> that they "don't like cops" and feel that cops are out to get them.Their> stori es indicate that they haven't learned how to enjoy life without being on> t he edge of breaking the law and then feel like the police are out to hassle them.> My challange to them and all the students is to have a good time in life> while always making sure that their pleasure doesn't come at anyone else's expense.> > All of this transfers right over to us as pilots. I fly a lot. I'm very involved> with my EAA Chapter here in southeast Michigan an d we end up involved with> many airports and sometimes the FAA for Young Ea gle flights and other activities.> I'm thrilled that they are there and mak e sure that they are happy we are> there doing what we do. At no time have we ever been hassled by the FAA, a controller,> airport managers, the neigh boring public or anybody else. I think that> anybody who feels they're not able to enjoy life or aviation without being> hassled by the cops or FAA si mply hasn't figured out how to have a good time without> it being at other people's expense. At school, we call it "people skills".> It goes a long wa y in life.> Enjoy,> Rex Phelps / Model 3 / 912UL / Warp / Michigan> > -- "f ox5flyer" wrote:> > Excellent post Rick. It's goo d to hear from someone who speaks with experience> from being close to the action. > My purpose in writing this is to give a short blurb on my own tho ughts and experiences> regarding the FAA, mostly from the air traffic contr ol side. > I first earned my private license in early 1970, then commercial sometime in> 1971, while holding down an air traffic control (ATC) job tha t I retired from> in 1988. I had plenty of interaction with FAA in various assignments, including> Seattle ARTCC. As a pilot or ATC at no time was I e ver unnecessarily hassled> about anything. Every fed that I came into conta ct with was courteous, knowledgeable,> and helpful. I, like a lot of others on this list, have spent my> fair share of time hanging around airports, w hether it was flying, working on> my airplane, attending get-togethers, or just sitting around in the terminal> having coffee listening to and partici pating in the conversations. Lots of camaraderie.> However, one thing that always bothered me was the occasional person> who would take every opportun ity to hammer the FAA about something. Usually> it was things like "I never talk to air traffic control", then go on about some> anecdotal story picke d up about somebody being> vectored out of their way near a busy airport, o r something along that level.> There are also those who vehemently make it known how they refuse to use their> radios or transponders around congested areas, preferring to fly right through> without talking to ATC. Their reas ons are usually something like "I don't> need the hassle of the feds", or s omething along that line. This always makes> me cringe. I could post a lot of the usual stories, but they never seem to change> much, and always come from the same types of people. It was difficult for> me to keep quiet while hearing this sort of talk (still is) because I knew> most of it was embell ished BS (hangar talk). Unfortunately, there are often> very naive and inex perienced pilots around who are listening and, like sponges,> they soak it right up and it later becomes very difficult to change their minds> about i t. "First learned is best learned". Sure, like anything else, the> FAA is n ot perfect. Unfortunately, there are the> occasional problems within the FA A like the Bob Hoover debacle, but they are rare.> > Everyone of us pays th e taxes that puts ATC in place and pays the wages of those> guys and gals w ho are trying to do their job which is providing a safe and> orderly flow o f traffic. They are highly trained and with few exceptions, are> very capab le and willing to help. Personally, I use ATC at every opportunity> for fli ght following. I don't fly IMC and I don't file IFR, but I definitely> like to know that I am being seen on radar by someone who has the ability to> k eep me safe from other pilots out there who may not be able to see me. One> big plus for flight following that is very important to me is that if I ha ve a> problem that may threaten continued flight, I already have instant co ntact with> ATC who knows exactly where I am and should I have to make an e mergency landing,> rescue would be quick.> I'm sure there will be some "yea h, but..." replies and that is OK, but if this> helps to change the mindset of at least one person, I'm satisfied.> Now, on a Kitfox note, I'll be bri nging my airplane down to the shop today to> start the annual.> Deke Moriss e> Mikado Michigan> S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT> "Nothing will ever be attempted, if all possible objections must first be overcome".-> Samuel Johnson> > Gu ys/Gals,> > Excuse the previous blank email, somehow my computer decided it was time to send> it out. I'm innocent. I didn't even touch a key, go figu re.> > I did want to mention something that might be helpful to all of us. I retired> from the FAA in 1997 and I held a number of relatively high posi tions on the> engineering side of the Agency. I did work a lot with flight standards folks,> the regulators of aviation. I can say this about them, th ey all (with very> few exceptions) got into the FAA because they loved avia tion. Some were always> GA and some a combination of military and GA, but a ll like their jobs, be they> pilots or mechanics.> > The inspectors get ver y regimented training on the rules before they interface> with the public. They all are serious about safety and their main mission is> to protect the ' innocent public' and then the aviators. Many of them would> do anything to avoid citing a pilot or a technicality because it means a lot> of paperw ork. Yes, there are some that look forward to the opportunity to 'get> some one', but the management in HQ tries to not let that happen. For instance,> at AirVenture there can be 20 or 30 inspectors walking around and they are > trained to not hassle the pilots, but to work with the person if they see a problem.> You probably have never even noticed many of them when they ar e working> on the ramp, unless they're wearing an FAA name tag or shirt.> > Given all this, when someone brings a problem to their attention, they can not> ignore it. They are obligated to follow through and research the compl aint.> Actually, that's what we, as taxpayers, expect from our government e mployees.> That being said, when we want something from the FAA don't we ex pect them to> work hard and get an answer in a reasonable time?> > The real problem we face is how to interact with the inspector. If we show a> compl iant attitude (do not read this as confessing to breaking a rule - get an> attorney before you even consider doing that) and strive for a safety relat ed> outcome, it is possible to get off with just a warning, either verbally or written.> Once you do something that causes the inspector to be concern ed and he> forwards his findings to the attorneys at FAA, all bets are off. Attorneys> work in a world of rules and sanctions. Once they get the case they will do their> attorney thing. It then becomes difficult to get a comp romise without professional> (your attorney) help.> > If you have a problem with a fellow aviator, confront him or her directly and> try to work it ou t. If you are doing something 'unexpected' or just plain wrong> and someone confronts you, explain it, accept the responsibility, or if you> choose to deny it, or do whatever you think is appropriate, expect the FAA to> come ask when the person you blew off decides to call the feds. When you do> tha t, at least you now know the process you are about to enter. Remember, the> rules will be enforced, right or wrong (I mean whether the rule is right o r wrong).> if you don't like the rules, petition the Agency to change it. T he FAA> is obligated to address that request to. However,as we always say, the rules> have been written, for the most part, in the blood of the aviato rs who have> gone west before us. They aren't that onerous, they are our go vernment's best> attempt to draw the limits on what is safe. Just don't pla ce yourself in a position> that will allow the FAA inspector to> interpret the rules. English is a tough language and different words can be interpret ed> in different ways. Enter the lawyers. This is where they make their> ca reers. Don't give these folks the opportunity to get awards, for getting> y ou. > > I apologize for going on, but as a fellow aviator, I don't want to see our privileges> (not rights) jeopardized by some of us operating as 'co wboys' and stirring> up the public (or other aviators) who then think they have to save the world> and go to the FAA. > > Fly safe!> > Rick Weiss> Kit fox Series V Speedster (soon to fly - I hope)> Daytona Beach> > > > ------- --------------------------> Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfo x-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums .matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.ma tronics.com/c > > =================== ================= ">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?Kitfox-List ================ ==================== tronics.com =========== www.matronics.com/contribution === ======== > > > ____________________________________________ _________________> Find custom shirts that suit you to a "t"! Click now!> > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________ ________> > > Time: 11:52:50 AM PST US> From: Michel Verheughe > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!> > > On Ja n 6, 2008, at 4:57 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote:> > Interesting enough, speed is all the rage here amongst the Kitfox > > community; lots of work on drag re duction and increased horsepower.> > I understand, Guy. Indeed, it may soun d silly to use extra fuel to push > a draggy object through the air.> > Whe n I decided to get a pilot license then buy an aircraft, I had no > prior k nowledge of aviation apart from my father, the airman of my > childhood. To me, it made sense (and still does!) that a recreational > aircraft must be simple and reliable. We have a Rutan Defiant, here at > our airfield. Nice plane; but not my cup of tea. My Kitfox taildragger > with a air-cooled bo xer Jabiru is ancient and well-proven technology. > For the pleasure of bei ng up there, feeling free like a bird, I don't > need anything more.> > I t hink there will always be a market for that kind of aircraft; just > as peo ple will continue to sail, ski, horse ride or use > radio-telegraphy; anach ronisms certainly, but enjoyable ones. It will > be a smaller market, thoug h, but a nice one.> > Cheers,> Michel Verheughe> Norway> Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200> > > ________________________________ Message 8 ______________________ _______________> > > Time: 01:06:25 PM PST US> Subject: Kitfox-List: Rule b reakers Was: Re: This feud isn't pretty!> From: "kitfoxmike" > > > > Guy Buchanan wrote:> > At 07:13 AM 1/5/2008, you wrote:> > > > > 5 days later I get a letter from the airport manager stating that > > > there were multiple complaints about me doing erratic flying at > > > t heir airport and if it continues they will turn me into the > > > FSDO. I d id nothing wrong, but somebody on the ground didn't like > > > my flying an d got with his friends and they complained to the airport manager.> > > > > > > > > > Mike,> > Thank you, you have made my point. Whatever you were do ing > > scared the groundlings enough to complain. Yes, there are the > > o ccasional nut-cases sitting at the ends of runways, but they are > > usuall y notorious and are ignored by airport managers and the local > > FAA. Yet you said you were doing something new and that there were > > multiple comp laints. And interestingly enough these complaints were > > sufficient to ma ke the airport manager threaten you, either because > > of their nature, or because the status of who made them. As a result > > you have jeopardized that airport's future, and put yet another nail > > in the coffin of genera l aviation. What happened? Let's address the > > possibilities:> > > > 1. Y ou were doing something illegal and unsafe. Is any discussion necessary?> > > > 2. You were doing something legal and unsafe. Discussion?> > > > 3. Yo u were doing something illegal and safe. The rules we fly by are > > design ed, in large part, to keep everyone safe. You and I both know > > it is pos sible to fly outside the rules and be perfectly safe. What's > > the point? Some of the rules are designed to give the groundlings a > > perception of safety, to keep us out of the public eye. You and I > > both know we can f ly within 50' of anything and anybody in perfect > > safety, yet it scares the crap out of the un-informed when we do it. > > Thus the rule that says stay 500' away from anything that might > > contain a human. (My paraphrase .) There are others. (Do we really > > need 1000' AGL pattern altitudes? Wh at's wrong with flying under > > bridges? Why can't we land on public prope rty in CA where there are > > huge dry lake beds? Why can't we land on road s?)> > > > 4. You were doing something legal and safe. If this is the case you > > should seriously consider a small educational effort wherein you ge t > > together with the complainants and explain what you were doing and > > why, why it was legal, and more importantly, why it was safe. (Maybe > > the airport manager should attend, too.) You will then have removed > > you r's and maybe a few other's nails from the GA coffin. Yes I know > > it's a n effort, but after all, it's your nail.> > > > > > Guy Buchanan> > San Die go, CA> > K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. > > > I didn't prove any of your points.> > I must have done something unsa fe. BS> > I didn't do anything wrong, all I did was do touch and go's on al l runways.> > I asked another pilot about this and he immediately said, Oh you did touch and> go's on all runways, that's enough to piss people off at that airport.> > I guess the point I'm trying to get out here is the fact that there are so called> pilots out there that want to see the classic fly ing of student pilots. > BY THE BOOK.> > All I can say is let people go aro und turning pilots in, it will keep the airwaves> free, more spacing for me . I have a terrible time with pilots that are not> proficient. They constan tly turn in front of me on final, turn into my flight> path on take off(par allel runways), pop out on the runway at the hold short> lines when I'm on final. If it will discourage pilots from flying, (fear of> being turned int o the FAA). THen great, it will keep those idiots out of the> sky.> > ----- ---> kitfoxmike> model IV, 1200> speedster> 912ul> building > RV7a> slowbui ld wings, fuse, finish kit> "if you're not getting razzed from pilots or the FAA then you're not flying> enough"> Do not archive> > > Read t his topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156 404#156404> > > ________________________________ Message 9 ________________ _____________________> > > Time: 02:16:56 PM PST US> From: Guy Buchanan > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Rule breakers Was: Re: This feud isn't pretty!> > > At 01:04 PM 1/6/2008, you wrote:> >I guess the point I'm trying to get out here is the fact that there > >are so called pilots out there that want to see the classic flying > >of student pilots.> >BY THE BO OK.> > Mike,> What did you do that might not have been "BY THE BOOK". > Cer tainly not doing touch and goes on all runways; that's what > they're for. I think you're saying that what you did was both legal > and safe. If so, w hy don't you work with the airport manager to > explain that to the complai ners? Then you'll be free to continue with > that activity.> > > Guy Buchan an> San Diego, CA> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to B ob Ducar. > > > ________________________________ Message 10 _______________ _____________________> > > Time: 04:43:00 PM PST US> Subject: Kitfox-List: KF-1 tail wheel and door frames> From: "AKFLYERBOB" > > > looking for a tailwheel assembly w/speing and > door frames or f rame kit> > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/v iewtopic.php?p=156451#156451> > > ________________________________ Messag e 11 ____________________________________> > > Time: 05:14:43 PM PST US> Fr om: "Dee Young" > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: KF-1 tail wheel and door frames> > Contact John or Debra McBean at Kitfox they can he lp I am sure. > > Dee Young> Model II N345DY> > Do not archive> > ----- Ori ginal Message ----- > From: AKFLYERBOB > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Sent: Su nday, January 06, 2008 5:42 PM> Subject: Kitfox-List: KF-1 tail wheel and d oor frames> > > >> > looking for a tailwheel assembly w/speing and > door frames or fram e kit> > > Read this topic online here:> > > http://forums.matronics.com/vi ewtopic.php?p=156451#156451 matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p =156451#156451>> > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List avigator?Kitfox-List>> > > http://www.matronics.com/ contribution on>> > > ________________ ________________ Message 12 ____________________________________> > > Time: 05:33:25 PM PST US> From: Clint Bazzill > Subje ct: Kitfox-List: Vortex generators> > > Here is a short clip of video with vortex generators> > More and articles later. Clint> > > http://www.youtube .com/profile?user=ClintsKitfox> > ________________________________ Messag e 13 ____________________________________> > > Time: 08:12:30 PM PST US> Fr om: "Dee Young" > Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox constru ction> > My model II has been down for a time with mag problems. I have mad e the > necessary repairs and it runs good. There have been several other i tems > that have been a bother since I built the plane. One has been cold > starting problems. From reading posts on this list I learned that the > ca ble size is a major consideration. I have changed to a larger cable > now a nd the plane spins over nicely and starts good. The second was the > coolin g shroud looked lousy. I have taken the time to rebuild the > cooling shrou d using 6061 T6 aluminum. I finished the fitting and > assembly today. It s ure looks a lot better than the old one and it is > also much more substant ial. Rivnuts are great.> > I am sure no one really cares about all this stu ff but I think its good > to remind ourselves the value of the list. I thin k we sometime forget > how much help it can provide for those in the buildi ng process. I am one > of the guys out here that had no aviation experience at all when I > started the build and I live in an area where there was no one to ask > for help. The only place to get answers was here. I really li ke reading > the posts and continue to learn a lot of good stuff from the m ore > experienced folks. > > Dee Young> Kitfox II > N345DY > KFM 112> > Do not archive. > > ________________________________ Message 14 ______________ ______________________> > > Time: 10:17:05 PM PST US> From: Clint Bazzill < clint_bazzill@hotmail.com>> Subject: Kitfox-List: > > > Hi Brent,> > Try ba rnstormers, google and see what you come up with. The Kitfox list is> kitfo x-list@matronics.com> > Clint will keep you posted and thanks for the call. > > ________________________________ Message 15 ___________________________ _________> > > Time: 11:36:33 PM PST US> From: "A Smith" > Subject: Kitfox-List: Reality check, it is time> > > Much to the dismay of our moderator, this has nothing to do with Kitfox. (I > like to do that som etimes) Without this, there there is no group.> > THE DREAM> The first memo ry of my childhood is that of my father and me in the park. > Flying. It wa s a model that he had built. He would throw it and the children > of the ne ighborhood would run after it until it landed. That is until it was > stepp ed on in the hurry to get it first. The closest one got to pick it up > and bring it back. An honor and time I am sure long forgotten by all. Except > one. I did not run after the plane. I stood in fascination. The beauty of it > flitting around on the air. Nobody could touch it until it came back f rom > the safety of the winds to the confines and rigors of the earth. I kn ew at > that moment that I had to have that freedom, that safety.> Years of sitting at airports watching the planes come and go, the pilots > with the re air of superiority about them. Afraid ot let them catch me > looking at them for what they might do. Amazed at how they handled those > long wings on the ground. Maneuvering them between all the other planes that > were pa rked. Then the day came. My father was taking flying lessons in an > Aeroco upe. He was going to go do some solo time and the plane needed fuel. > He t old me to get in and steer it while he pushed it to the FBO. I do not > kno w why the truck didn"t just drive down to it. I have a pretty good idea > t hough. I climbed into the cockpit and settled into the seat. To short to > see anything. I wasn't going to let that little inconvenience stop me > tho ugh. I could stretch and see just fine. He showed me how to steer it. And > as he climbed down, withour turning around said, "watch the wings, and kee p > it centered." We started to move. My dad, the power. Me at the controls . And > boy did I watch the wings. Like a hawk on the first leap from the n est. It > was only a few hundred feet to the truck. And I am sure it was ke pt somewhat > centered. Which probably added another few hundreed feet. I d id not say > anything then. But dad could have pushed me back and forth all day long. I > never told anybody, They would not believe me anyway. That w as my private > taste for the feeling of the freedom to flying. Like a chil d, it is not > reality at first. Until one day, like conception, there is n o turning back. > And there it sits. Steel, Aluminum, plastic. A stranger i n your area. Yet > there is a bond that already exists. You can feel it whe n you are near. I > seems to reach out to you. And as that of the birth of a child. It starts. > You mold and shape. Touch and check every square inch . Just waiting for the > slightest hint of a problem. If there is, you atta ck it with ferocity. > Defending your own blood. There are the doubters and the non beleavers. You > don't listen. It doesn't matter what it does. Goo d or bad. You molded it > after yourself, Its's perfect. It's the DREAM.> T his is what keeps us all together> > > ________________________________ Mes sage 16 ____________________________________> > > Time: 11:47:08 PM PST US> From: "A Smith" > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox constru ction> > Dee > Do not think that no one cares. It is all important. The gro up seems to > be loosing something. It is not anyone in particular. It is h ard to put > a finger on. Glad to hear of your alum. bending fun. Tell me a bout it. > After all, it is Kitfox related. I like to work with alum. but I am not > even close to what some of the people on the list can do. I figur e if it > is straight or I really meant to bend it it is good. Got some pic s??? > You can send them to me off list. Do not want to offend the moderato =======================> > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:22:13 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: RE: Kitfox-List: Reality check, it is time At 07:49 AM 1/7/2008, you wrote: >Our moderators have forgotten what the list is about. We have one who does >not want any friendship on the list and one who is king, he knows more than >anyone and will argue for page after page to prove it. Please be advised that this is not an open invitation to debate the merits of the moderators. If you wish to reply one way or another please do so off-list. Thank you, Guy Buchanan, Kitfox List Moderator San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:22:43 PM PST US From: Michael Gibbs Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Reality check, it is time John sez: >Our moderators have forgotten what the list is about. We have one who does >not want any friendship on the list and one who is king, he knows more than >anyone and will argue for page after page to prove it. This would be really funny if you weren't being sincere. I usually (but not always, I'll admit) spend some time carefully wording my comments to be clear but I've come to realize that it doesn't really matter at all. Everyone on the list will interpret what you said differently and run off half-cocked starting 26 new conversations on all the different things I never said. Oh well... Mike G. Kitfox List Moderator P.S. So, am I the king or the unfriendly one? ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:41:26 PM PST US From: 84KF Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Reality check, it is time THE DREAM Albert, Sir, We have never met......... It would be a honor if that day ever arrived. Thank you. Steve B On Jan 7, 2008 2:31 AM, A Smith wrote: > > Much to the dismay of our moderator, this has nothing to do with Kitfox. > (I > like to do that sometimes) Without this, there there is no group. > > THE DREAM > The first memory of my childhood is that of my father and me in the park. > Flying. It was a model that he had built. He would throw it and the > children > of the neighborhood would run after it until it landed. That is until it > was > stepped on in the hurry to get it first. The closest one got to pick it up > and bring it back. An honor and time I am sure long forgotten by all. > Except > one. I did not run after the plane. I stood in fascination. The beauty of > it > flitting around on the air. Nobody could touch it until it came back from > the safety of the winds to the confines and rigors of the earth. I knew at > that moment that I had to have that freedom, that safety. > Years of sitting at airports watching the planes come and go, the pilots > with there air of superiority about them. Afraid ot let them catch me > looking at them for what they might do. Amazed at how they handled those > long wings on the ground. Maneuvering them between all the other planes > that > were parked. Then the day came. My father was taking flying lessons in an > Aerocoupe. He was going to go do some solo time and the plane needed fuel. > He told me to get in and steer it while he pushed it to the FBO. I do not > know why the truck didn"t just drive down to it. I have a pretty good idea > though. I climbed into the cockpit and settled into the seat. To short to > see anything. I wasn't going to let that little inconvenience stop me > though. I could stretch and see just fine. He showed me how to steer it. > And > as he climbed down, withour turning around said, "watch the wings, and > keep > it centered." We started to move. My dad, the power. Me at the controls. > And > boy did I watch the wings. Like a hawk on the first leap from the nest. It > was only a few hundred feet to the truck. And I am sure it was kept > somewhat > centered. Which probably added another few hundreed feet. I did not say > anything then. But dad could have pushed me back and forth all day long. I > never told anybody, They would not believe me anyway. That was my private > taste for the feeling of the freedom to flying. Like a child, it is not > reality at first. Until one day, like conception, there is no turning > back. > And there it sits. Steel, Aluminum, plastic. A stranger in your area. Yet > there is a bond that already exists. You can feel it when you are near. I > seems to reach out to you. And as that of the birth of a child. It starts. > You mold and shape. Touch and check every square inch. Just waiting for > the > slightest hint of a problem. If there is, you attack it with ferocity. > Defending your own blood. There are the doubters and the non beleavers. > You > don't listen. It doesn't matter what it does. Good or bad. You molded it > after yourself, Its's perfect. It's the DREAM. > This is what keeps us all together > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:24:03 PM PST US From: Subject: Kitfox-List: Wing Tank Fuel Finger Strainers My Kitfox was originally built in 1994. So, I think it is about time to remove and check the finger strainers in the wing tanks. Has anyone on the list removed their finger strainers from the fiberglass wing tanks and if so are there any issues of concern getting the strainers out without damaging the tank threads? Jimmie ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:50:35 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Kitfox-List: Current events/ski story Just a general observation about this "movie" that's playing. It seems as though I've seen this one before, and I think this is the part where several of the "cast" get indignant, walk out and start a splinter group. Sometimes they come back, apparently missing some of the regular cast of characters, and some don't. I've got a short memory, and can't recall just what happened when this movie played before. But it was a good movie, and so I'll stay and watch it again. Who knows, maybe somebody edited it while it was awaiting reruns, and it'll be different this time around. That's why I'll be waiting and watching, having my popcorn and soda, and enjoying the show, maybe even booing or hissing, but as always thoroughly entertained and enlightened. Curious thing about splinters....sometimes a real pain, but sometimes you just have to let them work themselves out. I just finished reinforcing my homebuilt snow skis that I'm using on my Kitfox IV. I had a close encounter of the first kind [to continue the movie theme :) ] with a frozen snow bank the other day, and bent the tips of my skis up. They bent just ahead of where the last diagonal brace departs with the main side rails. I like the bend up, but they weren't equal, so I re-bent the ski with the larger bend to match the other, and then added a diagonal bend from the VERY tip of the skis back to the main cluster. This current temperature of 57F and two days of rain has knocked our previous foot of snow out completely, so this is the perfect time for me to do the repair. The skis flew perfectly after the bending took place, and even allowed the skis to climb a little higher above the deep snow. I had always felt that I needed a little more up-bend at the fronts, and now I have it, thanks to good old Mother Nature. Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/450+ hrs ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:06:09 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Wing Tank Fuel Finger Strainers I removed mine when I did the flush and re-kreeme job, Jimmie. I didn't have any problem. I reinserted the finger strainers, using a Permatex Aviation product...just can't recall the proper name of it...some kind of gasket maker stuff. Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/450+ hrs On Jan 7, 2008, at 3:36 PM, wrote: > > My Kitfox was originally built in 1994. So, I think it is about > time to remove and check the finger strainers in the wing tanks. > Has anyone on the list removed their finger strainers from the > fiberglass wing tanks and if so are there any issues of concern > getting the strainers out without damaging the tank threads? > > Jimmie > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:21:23 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: This feud isn't pretty! It's a dirty job (sometimes) but one that has to be done. Thank God or to whom it may concern there are people there to do it! My 2 cents CDN (at close to parity) Noel Loveys Mod III-A getting a 912 From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fox5flyer Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 10:22 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: This feud isn't pretty! Excellent post Rick. It's good to hear from someone who speaks with experience from being close to the action. My purpose in writing this is to give a short blurb on my own thoughts and experiences regarding the FAA, mostly from the air traffic control side. I first earned my private license in early 1970, then commercial sometime in 1971, while holding down an air traffic control (ATC) job that I retired from in 1988. I had plenty of interaction with FAA in various assignments, including Seattle ARTCC. As a pilot or ATC at no time was I ever unnecessarily hassled about anything. Every fed that I came into contact with was courteous, knowledgeable, and helpful. I, like a lot of others on this list, have spent my fair share of time hanging around airports, whether it was flying, working on my airplane, attending get-togethers, or just sitting around in the terminal having coffee listening to and participating in the conversations. Lots of camaraderie. However, one thing that always bothered me was the occasional person who would take every opportunity to hammer the FAA about something. Usually it was things like "I never talk to air traffic control", then go on about some anecdotal story picked up about somebody being vectored out of their way near a busy airport, or something along that level. There are also those who vehemently make it known how they refuse to use their radios or transponders around congested areas, preferring to fly right through without talking to ATC. Their reasons are usually something like "I don't need the hassle of the feds", or something along that line. This always makes me cringe. I could post a lot of the usual stories, but they never seem to change much, and always come from the same types of people. It was difficult for me to keep quiet while hearing this sort of talk (still is) because I knew most of it was embellished BS (hangar talk). Unfortunately, there are often very naive and inexperienced pilots around who are listening and, like sponges, they soak it right up and it later becomes very difficult to change their minds about it. "First learned is best learned". Sure, like anything else, the FAA is not perfect. Unfortunately, there are the occasional problems within the FAA like the Bob Hoover debacle, but they are rare. Everyone of us pays the taxes that puts ATC in place and pays the wages of those guys and gals who are trying to do their job which is providing a safe and orderly flow of traffic. They are highly trained and with few exceptions, are very capable and willing to help. Personally, I use ATC at every opportunity for flight following. I don't fly IMC and I don't file IFR, but I definitely like to know that I am being seen on radar by someone who has the ability to keep me safe from other pilots out there who may not be able to see me. One big plus for flight following that is very important to me is that if I have a problem that may threaten continued flight, I already have instant contact with ATC who knows exactly where I am and should I have to make an emergency landing, rescue would be quick. I'm sure there will be some "yeah, but..." replies and that is OK, but if this helps to change the mindset of at least one person, I'm satisfied. Now, on a Kitfox note, I'll be bringing my airplane down to the shop today to start the annual. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT "Nothing will ever be attempted, if all possible objections must first be overcome".- Samuel Johnson Guys/Gals, Excuse the previous blank email, somehow my computer decided it was time to send it out. I'm innocent. I didn't even touch a key, go figure. I did want to mention something that might be helpful to all of us. I retired from the FAA in 1997 and I held a number of relatively high positions on the engineering side of the Agency. I did work a lot with flight standards folks, the regulators of aviation. I can say this about them, they all (with very few exceptions) got into the FAA because they loved aviation. Some were always GA and some a combination of military and GA, but all like their jobs, be they pilots or mechanics. The inspectors get very regimented training on the rules before they interface with the public. They all are serious about safety and their main mission is to protect the ' innocent public' and then the aviators. Many of them would do anything to avoid citing a pilot or a technicality because it means a lot of paperwork. Yes, there are some that look forward to the opportunity to 'get someone', but the management in HQ tries to not let that happen. For instance, at AirVenture there can be 20 or 30 inspectors walking around and they are trained to not hassle the pilots, but to work with the person if they see a problem. You probably have never even noticed many of them when they are working on the ramp, unless they're wearing an FAA name tag or shirt. Given all this, when someone brings a problem to their attention, they cannot ignore it. They are obligated to follow through and research the complaint. Actually, that's what we, as taxpayers, expect from our government employees. That being said, when we want something from the FAA don't we expect them to work hard and get an answer in a reasonable time? The real problem we face is how to interact with the inspector. If we show a compliant attitude (do not read this as confessing to breaking a rule - get an attorney before you even consider doing that) and strive for a safety related outcome, it is possible to get off with just a warning, either verbally or written. Once you do something that causes the inspector to be concerned and he forwards his findings to the attorneys at FAA, all bets are off. Attorneys work in a world of rules and sanctions. Once they get the case they will do their attorney thing. It then becomes difficult to get a compromise without professional (your attorney) help. If you have a problem with a fellow aviator, confront him or her directly and try to work it out. If you are doing something 'unexpected' or just plain wrong and someone confronts you, explain it, accept the responsibility, or if you choose to deny it, or do whatever you think is appropriate, expect the FAA to come ask when the person you blew off decides to call the feds. When you do that, at least you now know the process you are about to enter. Remember, the rules will be enforced, right or wrong (I mean whether the rule is right or wrong). if you don't like the rules, petition the Agency to change it. The FAA is obligated to address that request to. However,as we always say, the rules have been written, for the most part, in the blood of the aviators who have gone west before us. They aren't that onerous, they are our government's best attempt to draw the limits on what is safe. Just don't place yourself in a position that will allow the FAA inspector to interpret the rules. English is a tough language and different words can be interpreted in different ways. Enter the lawyers. This is where they make their careers. Don't give these folks the opportunity to get awards, for getting you. I apologize for going on, but as a fellow aviator, I don't want to see our privileges (not rights) jeopardized by some of us operating as 'cowboys' and stirring up the public (or other aviators) who then think they have to save the world and go to the FAA. Fly safe! Rick Weiss Kitfox Series V Speedster (soon to fly - I hope) Daytona Beach _____ Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:38:45 PM PST US From: shinco Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Reality check, it is time john oakley wrote: > > "Much to the dismay of our moderator, this has nothing to do with Kitfox. (I > like to do that sometimes) Without this, there is no group." > > Albert, > Our moderators have forgotten what the list is about. We have one who does > not want any friendship on the list and one who is king, he knows more than > anyone and will argue for page after page to prove it. I have thought hard > about quitting the list but like many us of feel we need the list for us and > the new builders, the experience's and energy behind this size group is > nothing to waste. > I have been on the list since 92, I have built 2 kitfox, I have flown 8 > different fox, dozens of other aircraft including war birds and heavy's. I > hoped my experiences have helped someone. I know at least one person that > was on the list what may have saved my life, pulling my cowl and pointing > out the broken motor mount. Every year I try to complete some update to the > bird, usually using information found on the list. I salute all of you who > have helped someone through a problem or a question. Please continue to help > john and Debra continue their work. If you need a part give john and chance > to provide it, at least ask if he can match the price. We need john to > continue the line, this well help the pricing and continue the legacy that > Dan Denny started building in his garage twenty five years ago. With 15 > years on the list, I guess you could call it a habit, I guess I can break > the habit if I have to "I am a man and can change if I have to" (red-green) > > John Oakley > Speedster 4 long and short wings > 912 ul with cap > > > > That is some good words 2 be proud of John..and U are right,,way 2 go..Steve Shinabery N554KF KF2 and the little 582 that could ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:40:31 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Wing Tank Fuel Finger Strainers At 12:36 PM 1/7/2008, you wrote: >Has anyone on the list removed their finger strainers from the >fiberglass wing tanks and if so are there any issues of concern >getting the strainers out without damaging the tank threads? Jimmie, I did it repeatedly during the first 40 hours and a few more times after trying to find a sealant that would work. You're right about the threads and that concern prompted me to leave them in at the last annual. The answer obviously depends on what sealant was used to install them. If they were epoxied in, you're probably stuck with them. (Bad pun intended.) (It's possible the brass will release from the epoxy, but unlikely. More likely the epoxy will ball-up, distorting the hole significantly. Nearly any other sealant should shear before the glass and brass so you should be able to remove them without trouble. Don't heat the tank to soften the sealant, not just because of the gas inside, but because the vinyl-ester resin used to make them is not intended for high temperatures. By the way, the only sealant I've gotten to work with 100LL is two-part polysulfide: (http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/proseal.php) Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:54:11 PM PST US From: "W & R Beck" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Wing Tank Fuel Finger Strainers Jimmie: My '94 strainers were installed with Permaseal (Permatex?) aviation gasket goo. I gently heated up the strainers and tank area around them with a heat gun (no fuel in the tanks, caps off, it takes a bit of time) and the strainers very easily came right out. Before heating they were rock solid and I was afraid of damaging the threads. Heating would work with most sealants I would suspect. Hope this helps. Robert Beck > > My Kitfox was originally built in 1994. So, I think it is about time to > remove and check the finger strainers in the wing tanks. Has anyone on > the list removed their finger strainers from the fiberglass wing tanks and > if so are there any issues of concern getting the strainers out without > damaging the tank threads? > > Jimmie ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:30:46 PM PST US From: 84KF Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Current events/ski story "This current temperature of 57F and two days of rain has knocked our previous foot of snow out completely, " Lynn, Do you, or are you having, a humidity problem inside your hanger with the weather being what it is the last few days? If so, any sugestion on how to stop or at least control it, other then just better air circulation? Steve Benesh Milford Mi. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:18:48 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Reality check, it is time John: It's," I'm a man, I can change, if I have to... I guess... Noel III-A getting four stroke power. -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of john oakley Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 12:20 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Reality check, it is time "Much to the dismay of our moderator, this has nothing to do with Kitfox. (I like to do that sometimes) Without this, there is no group." Albert, Our moderators have forgotten what the list is about. We have one who does not want any friendship on the list and one who is king, he knows more than anyone and will argue for page after page to prove it. I have thought hard about quitting the list but like many us of feel we need the list for us and the new builders, the experience's and energy behind this size group is nothing to waste. I have been on the list since 92, I have built 2 kitfox, I have flown 8 different fox, dozens of other aircraft including war birds and heavy's. I hoped my experiences have helped someone. I know at least one person that was on the list what may have saved my life, pulling my cowl and pointing out the broken motor mount. Every year I try to complete some update to the bird, usually using information found on the list. I salute all of you who have helped someone through a problem or a question. Please continue to help john and Debra continue their work. If you need a part give john and chance to provide it, at least ask if he can match the price. We need john to continue the line, this well help the pricing and continue the legacy that Dan Denny started building in his garage twenty five years ago. With 15 years on the list, I guess you could call it a habit, I guess I can break the habit if I have to "I am a man and can change if I have to" (red-green) John Oakley Speedster 4 long and short wings 912 ul with cap ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:19:15 PM PST US From: "Rick" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Wing Tank Fuel Finger Strainers I made that part of my annual. Good thing to check for sure. Should seal without any sealants, but don't guess it could hurt unless your one of those anal weight types. :) Rick -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jimmieblackwell@austin.rr.com Sent: 2008-01-07 12:37 Subject: Kitfox-List: Wing Tank Fuel Finger Strainers My Kitfox was originally built in 1994. So, I think it is about time to remove and check the finger strainers in the wing tanks. Has anyone on the list removed their finger strainers from the fiberglass wing tanks and if so are there any issues of concern getting the strainers out without damaging the tank threads? Jimmie ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:24:27 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Current events/ski story I meant to say that I added a diagonal BRACE from the very tip of the skis back to the main cluster...sorry. Lynn On Jan 7, 2008, at 12:27 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote: > equal, so I re-bent the ski with the larger bend to match the > other, and then added a diagonal bend from the VERY tip of the skis > back to the main cluster. This current temperature of 57F and two > days of rain has knocked our previous foot of snow out completely, > so this is the perfect time for me to do the repair. The skis flew > perfectly after the bending took place, and even allowed the skis > to climb a little higher above the deep snow. I had always felt > that I needed a little more up-bend at the fronts, and now I have > it, thanks to good old Mother Nature. > > Lynn Matteson > Grass Lake, Michigan > Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 > flying w/450+ hrs > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:43:20 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Current events/ski story I just went to my hangar today, and there was moisture all over the fabric, but none in the vicinity of the engine. I have been using a 200 watt strip heater that lays under the engine between the oil cooler and the oil pan. This keeps the entire engine warm, and a insulated blanket over the cowl keeps the heat within the cowl. I think that just opening the hangar doors and leaving them open would *maybe* keep the humidity down, but I'm not sure. I'm gonna try that tomorrow. I'm really tickled pink with the way this strip heater keeps the engine warm. Lately, with the temp outside around 20-30 F., I've been seeing oil temp of about 100, cyl head temp of about 75, and cowl temp of about 75 before ever starting the engine, just by having this strip heater going 24 hours. I mentioned this heater in a post on Jan 1, asking for any input from folks regarding any negative aspects that using this heater might bring about, but got no response. Maybe mentioning it again now will bring some answers? Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/450+ hrs On Jan 7, 2008, at 10:13 PM, 84KF wrote: > "This current temperature of 57F > and two days of rain has knocked our previous foot of snow out > completely, " > > Lynn, > Do you, or are you having, a humidity problem inside your hanger > with the weather being what it is the last few days? > > If so, any sugestion on how to stop or at least control it, other > then just better air circulation? > > Steve Benesh > Milford Mi. > www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List _- > www.matronics.com/contribution _- > =========================================================== ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:44:08 PM PST US From: "john oakley" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Reality check, it is time Noel, thanks, I just can't seem to get it right. :-) I know who is using duct tape now.... :-) John Oakley Loving my kitfox 4 speedster in saltlake -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 8:18 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Reality check, it is time John: It's," I'm a man, I can change, if I have to... I guess... Noel III-A getting four stroke power. -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of john oakley Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 12:20 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Reality check, it is time "Much to the dismay of our moderator, this has nothing to do with Kitfox. (I like to do that sometimes) Without this, there is no group." Albert, Our moderators have forgotten what the list is about. We have one who does not want any friendship on the list and one who is king, he knows more than anyone and will argue for page after page to prove it. I have thought hard about quitting the list but like many us of feel we need the list for us and the new builders, the experience's and energy behind this size group is nothing to waste. I have been on the list since 92, I have built 2 kitfox, I have flown 8 different fox, dozens of other aircraft including war birds and heavy's. I hoped my experiences have helped someone. I know at least one person that was on the list what may have saved my life, pulling my cowl and pointing out the broken motor mount. Every year I try to complete some update to the bird, usually using information found on the list. I salute all of you who have helped someone through a problem or a question. Please continue to help john and Debra continue their work. If you need a part give john and chance to provide it, at least ask if he can match the price. We need john to continue the line, this well help the pricing and continue the legacy that Dan Denny started building in his garage twenty five years ago. With 15 years on the list, I guess you could call it a habit, I guess I can break the habit if I have to "I am a man and can change if I have to" (red-green) John Oakley Speedster 4 long and short wings 912 ul with cap ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:51:17 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Current events/ski story You got to watch those drifts. I had a friend who flew a 180 in the back of Labrador. One winter he landed close to Goose Bay and hit a drift that flicked the main gear straight out to the sides and bent the be$%^&* out of the prop. Your encounter seems to me to be constructive rather than destructive. Noel III-A -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 1:58 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Current events/ski story Just a general observation about this "movie" that's playing. It seems as though I've seen this one before, and I think this is the part where several of the "cast" get indignant, walk out and start a splinter group. Sometimes they come back, apparently missing some of the regular cast of characters, and some don't. I've got a short memory, and can't recall just what happened when this movie played before. But it was a good movie, and so I'll stay and watch it again. Who knows, maybe somebody edited it while it was awaiting reruns, and it'll be different this time around. That's why I'll be waiting and watching, having my popcorn and soda, and enjoying the show, maybe even booing or hissing, but as always thoroughly entertained and enlightened. Curious thing about splinters....sometimes a real pain, but sometimes you just have to let them work themselves out. I just finished reinforcing my homebuilt snow skis that I'm using on my Kitfox IV. I had a close encounter of the first kind [to continue the movie theme :) ] with a frozen snow bank the other day, and bent the tips of my skis up. They bent just ahead of where the last diagonal brace departs with the main side rails. I like the bend up, but they weren't equal, so I re-bent the ski with the larger bend to match the other, and then added a diagonal bend from the VERY tip of the skis back to the main cluster. This current temperature of 57F and two days of rain has knocked our previous foot of snow out completely, so this is the perfect time for me to do the repair. The skis flew perfectly after the bending took place, and even allowed the skis to climb a little higher above the deep snow. I had always felt that I needed a little more up-bend at the fronts, and now I have it, thanks to good old Mother Nature. Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/450+ hrs ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.