Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:36 AM - Vinyl graphics (wadegreaves)
2. 12:47 AM - Re: Polybrush help (wadegreaves)
3. 05:50 AM - Re: Re: Pros' & Cons' 912UL vs 912ULS (floran higgins)
4. 06:07 AM - Re: Vinyl graphics (Tom Jones)
5. 07:33 AM - Remove (forfun3@aol.com)
6. 08:07 AM - Re: Vinyl graphics (kcflys)
7. 08:25 AM - Re: How to increase lift on horizontal stab? (LarryM)
8. 09:05 AM - Re: Pros' & Cons' 912UL vs 912ULS (darinh)
9. 09:15 AM - Re: Re: LOW power limits (Noel Loveys)
10. 09:17 AM - Re: Vinyl graphics (akflyer)
11. 09:58 AM - Re: Pros' & Cons' 912UL vs 912ULS (dave)
12. 10:11 AM - Re: How to increase lift on horizontal stab? (dave)
13. 10:12 AM - Re: Re: Vinyl graphics (Noel Loveys)
14. 10:13 AM - Re: Re: Vinyl graphics (Noel Loveys)
15. 10:22 AM - Re: Re: How to increase lift on horizontal stab? (Noel Loveys)
16. 10:24 AM - Re: Re: How to increase lift on horizontal stab? (Clint Bazzill)
17. 10:33 AM - Re: Re: Vinyl graphics (Noel Loveys)
18. 10:41 AM - Re: Re: Pros' & Cons' 912UL vs 912ULS (Clint Bazzill)
19. 10:43 AM - Re: How to increase lift on horizontal stab? (Clint Bazzill)
20. 11:05 AM - Re: Re: LOW power limits (Clint Bazzill)
21. 11:09 AM - Re: Interest in Kitfox (Rhino)
22. 11:24 AM - Re: Re: Vinyl graphics (Michel Verheughe)
23. 11:30 AM - Re: Re: LOW power limits (Michel Verheughe)
24. 11:49 AM - Re: Re: Vinyl graphics (Noel Loveys)
25. 11:53 AM - Re: Re: LOW power limits (Noel Loveys)
26. 01:09 PM - Jabiru. WAS: LOW power limits (Michel Verheughe)
27. 01:43 PM - Re: Jabiru. WAS: LOW power limits (Lynn Matteson)
28. 02:23 PM - FW: Lapel (hat) Pin Re: First Flight (kirk hull)
29. 03:51 PM - Re: Re: LOW power limits (Ron Zeppin)
30. 03:51 PM - Re: Re: LOW power limits (Clint Bazzill)
31. 05:02 PM - Re: Jabiru. WAS: LOW power limits (dave)
32. 05:04 PM - Re: Re: LOW power limits (Sbennett3@aol.com)
33. 06:13 PM - Re: Re: LOW power limits (Jim Crowder)
34. 06:53 PM - Re: How to increase lift on horizontal stab? (LarryM)
35. 07:04 PM - Re: How to increase lift on horizontal stab? (LarryM)
36. 08:06 PM - Re: Jabiru. WAS: LOW power limits (Noel Loveys)
37. 09:05 PM - Re: Re: How to increase lift on horizontal stab? (Jim Corner)
38. 10:48 PM - Ignition pb on 582 (Renaud)
Message 1
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How do vinyl graphics do on polytone?
My recent battle with mysterious polybrush behavior is behind me and most of the
1st coat of silver is on there. Was warned by many to not be upset by the appearance
of things after the first coat is put on. To be honest, it looks great
and have not pulled out the sandpaper yet! This is a kick the the pants to
get the spray coats going!
Looking to do my S7 up in O-1 Bird Dog markings after being inspired by the Sorensen
Bearhawk on the cover of the recent 'Sport Aviation'. Will substitute their
black band on fuselage and black rudder with a light color.
Anyone have good experiences with any particular online vinyl lettering company?
Thanks
Attached is concept....you can also see my modified fairing around the landing
gear. Tubes bonded to wood 'box' surrounding landing gear.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157412#157412
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/paint1_357.bmp
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Polybrush help |
This Diesel/JP4 heater has been the best investment for my hangar yet. Heats it
up nicely and seems to burn pretty hot and clean. No evidence it is spitting
out residue. I keep the place pretty ventilated though....discovered a guy
on the job (cop) who gassed himself to death....at least when your dead from that
stuff you stay nice and red (not pale)....on to better things.
Heater not only seems to help with painting when all the surfaces warm up and get
rid of condensation, it also makes life out there actually comfortable!
And to all who worry, yes, I shut that puppy off well before pulling out any flamables.
Our hangars are insulated so after turning it off, the place stays cozy
for a few hours.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157413#157413
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| Subject: | Re: Pros' & Cons' 912UL vs 912ULS |
It has the plastic fairings on the struts.
It has 8.00X 6 tires. I have removed the wheel pants as they tend to fill up
with snow.
I have the GSC prop. I know the warp prop is more efficient but I an old
fashioned enough to like the looks of a wood prop on an airplane with a
round cowl.
This 105 figure is the GPS reading.
Floran Higgins
Helena Mt.
Speedster
912 ULS
----- Original Message -----
From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 10:27 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Pros' & Cons' 912UL vs 912ULS
>
>
>> With the 912UL I burned about 4.5 GPH.
>> With the 912 ULS I burn about 5 GPH.
>>
>> Floran Higgins
>>
>
>
> And you said at 105 mph cruise ? not bad but you could likely see 10 to
> 15 mph more . What have you done for fairings etc ? What size tires do
> you have and what prop are you running ?
>
> --------
> Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
> Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
> http://www.cfisher.com/
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157395#157395
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Vinyl graphics |
> How do vinyl graphics do on polytone?
I have some vinyl graphics on polytone . Put them on when the polytone had been
on for one year. They have been on for seven years now. Six years as a hangar
queen and nine months flying now. They still look like new.
> Anyone have good experiences with any particular online vinyl lettering company?
My wife made the designs on her computer and put them on a CD. I took the disk
to a sign shop and they printed them up. I had them print the N numbers too.
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV, Phase one
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157427#157427
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/kitfox01_flyingtigerpatchonkitfox_631.jpg
Message 5
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-----Original Message-----
From: dave <dave@cfisher.com>
Sent: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:31 pm
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Interest in Kitfox
I would suggest to stop the individual mails and use the forum only
http://forums.matronics.com/viewforum.php?f=8
The old mail list is nice if you get fora daily summary but the forum interface
seems much easier and better to me.
> I need to figure out how to stop the individual hits and only get the summary.
change your settings here http://www.matronics.com/emaillists/ I think
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157397#157397
________________________________________________________________________
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Vinyl graphics |
Wade,
My 2 cents but have you considered the consequences of that color scheme if they
have to search for you?
Something I heard weather real or not was the response from FAA that sure you can
paint your plane "camo" but if you go down don't expect us to come looking
for you
do not archive
--------
Keith C.
kitfox wannabe
C-150
Rancho Cordova CA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157450#157450
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| Subject: | Re: How to increase lift on horizontal stab? |
Dave check this link in the archives.
It's an Avid Mk4, STOL wing
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=25907&highlight=cci+vgs
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157453#157453
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| Subject: | Re: Pros' & Cons' 912UL vs 912ULS |
Dennis,
Try www.bellintercoolers.com
--------
Darin Hawkes
Series 7 (under Construction)
914 Turbo
Ogden, Utah
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157465#157465
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| Subject: | Re: LOW power limits |
This is a situation where figures really count. I have few, very few.
A couple of years ago when I first got my 'Fox I had a lot of trouble
gaining any altitude. H.. I had trouble getting into the air. A half mile
or so of water in calmish conditions was normal. My father's old C172 on
floats with the old Franklin wood burner started to look good. A calm day
and over an hour was able to garner me 3000'@ 6000rpm. Talk about
disappointment!
The plane was being flown on Aerocet floats at close to gross weight (850 lb
T.O.). My problem as it turned out was a faulty tachometer. Go figure. My
Westach was reading 20% too high so my actual rpm was close to 4800. I was
able to keep the heavy bird in the air at 2000' with 5800rpm indicated (4650
actual).
Using the table found at:
http://www.ultralightnews.ca/rotax582/pdfiles/582enginedatasheet.pdf I am
using the shortened Kitfox expansion chamber so I interpolate my Hp to be
around 38hp - 5% = 36hp at 5800 (on the faulty tach. Getting to 1500'asl
was no problem but after that it was pure agony.
Now I have replaced my tach with a solid state Microtach, aircraft
performance has rocketed. A gentle pull up at 1500' will now result in a
sustained climb in excess of 600'/min and an initial rate that will pin the
vsi. So far I've only gone as far a 3000'asl. Take off at close to calm
conditions and gross weight are around 600' if that long. With minimal fuel
I bet I would be off in less than 300'.
Of course in my neck of the woods 3000'asl is mostly 3000'agl :-)
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Jones
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 11:55 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: LOW power limits
> I'm curious with it's big wing, efficient airfoil and light weight, how
few ponies could a kitfox flier make do with? We don't have climb at 1500
FPM, 30% of that will do with the runways many of of us use. Some of the
early Cubs only had 40 HP.
Dave, I am nearing the completion of phase one flight testing my Classic 4
with a 52 hp 503 Rotax. Prop is a 72" Warp two blade, gear box is 3:1, prop
pitch set for 6200 RPM at 60 mph climb. Fairing on tube gear, no fairing on
lift struts. The Classic 4 is limited to 1050 max gross weight with a 503.
This is a power limitation, not an airframe limitation. Here's some raw
performance numbers.
Gross wt 760, density altitude 1500 ft, climb 730 fpm.
Gross wt 890, density altitude 1000 ft, climb 525 fpm.
Gross wt 954, density altitude 1500 ft, climb 480 fpm.
Gross wt 1050, density altitude 1800ft, climb 420 fpm.
Stall speed at 760 gross clean = 38 mph, 20 degrees flaps = 36 mph.
Stall speed at 1050 gross clean = 46 mph, 20 degrees flaps = 42 mph.
True air speed at 5800 rpm is 78 mph.
Best rate of climb speed = 58 mph, best angle =55, not much dif.
If I made my graph correctly, service ceiling at 760 gross is about 12,600
ft. and rate of climb at sea level at 760 gross is 810 fpm.
I havent measured the take off run but can say it is very short at 760 gross
and increases to probably about twice the distance at 1050 gross.
These performance numbers are very close to what the old Skystar advertised.
Their hook for selling this engine with the classic 4 was "Fun affordable
flying around the patch now and upgrade to more power at a later date when
you can afford it".
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV, Phase one
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157231#157231
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Vinyl graphics |
the plane does not look "camo" it looks like standard olive drab.
I have the local cutter make paint masks for mine. they go on like the vinyl graphics,
but are paint masks. put em on, paint, peel em off and you have the
perfect details. They cost about the same as the vinyl, but the paint will last
forever and not start lifting on ya.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
95% complete
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157468#157468
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Pros' & Cons' 912UL vs 912ULS |
> It has the plastic fairings on the struts.
> It has 8.00X 6 tires. I have removed the wheel pants as they tend to fill up
> with snow.
> I have the GSC prop. I know the warp prop is more efficient but I an old
> fashioned enough to like the looks of a wood prop on an airplane with a
> round cowl.
> This 105 figure is the GPS reading.
>
> Floran Higgins
Well I like the GSC props too and on 2 strokes they are within a few % of most
other props in my testings. On the 912 though I think the IVO props can give
you more cruise. Seriously you could likely see 10 to 20 mph gain in cruise speed
-- 115 to 125 mph.
I have several different WARP blades and they are the cats ass for Floatplane ops
with the near indestructible nickel leading edges. If you notice my youtube
videos last week I put up , I said we hit a tree doing "pipe line inspection"
.. it was about 1/2 to 1" around at 100 mph not a mark anywhere.
I just ordered some props this week for customers and if anyone looking for WARP
this season better get going they are running up to 12 weeks for delivery.
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157482#157482
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: How to increase lift on horizontal stab? |
> However; in the normal cruise range with a cruise rpm of 5400 yielded 84 mph
with the vg?s on the tail. Without the vgs, the same rpm yielded 74mph. This is
explained by the efficiencies of the tail.
>
Larry, that is quite a gain. I t hink everyone should go out and try this.
I have VGs on my wings and have not been in any hurry to take them off. Certainly
I did not see and gains like you did BUT i never put on tail yet. How far
ahead of Hinge line did you place them ? and what spacing? I have several kinds
of Vgs in stock here that I can try with.
One drawback that I did notice is that there is less buffeting felt prior to stall.
On power on stalls you can go from flying to abrupt stall and most times
a wing drop. I think mine are at about 10% of chord. My Wing is not under cambered
like your either if that matters
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157487#157487
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Vinyl graphics |
I e-mailed my design for my tail graphic and the size I wanted to a sign
shop a distance away... the next time I was in the town I went in a picked
up my graphics.
They even cut the letters out and placed then on separation paper so it
was easy to place.
Hope this comes through.
beothuckTEXTURE2sm.JPG
Noel
Mod III-A
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Jones
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 10:37 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Vinyl graphics
> How do vinyl graphics do on polytone?
I have some vinyl graphics on polytone . Put them on when the polytone had
been on for one year. They have been on for seven years now. Six years as
a hangar queen and nine months flying now. They still look like new.
> Anyone have good experiences with any particular online vinyl lettering
company?
My wife made the designs on her computer and put them on a CD. I took the
disk to a sign shop and they printed them up. I had them print the N
numbers too.
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV, Phase one
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157427#157427
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/kitfox01_flyingtigerpatchonkitfox_631.jpg
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Vinyl graphics |
Be sure if you crash, to crash upside down so the light blue will be
visible... Nah... file a flight plan, it's easier
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kcflys
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 12:37 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Vinyl graphics
Wade,
My 2 cents but have you considered the consequences of that color scheme if
they have to search for you?
Something I heard weather real or not was the response from FAA that sure
you can paint your plane "camo" but if you go down don't expect us to come
looking for you
do not archive
--------
Keith C.
kitfox wannabe
C-150
Rancho Cordova CA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157450#157450
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: How to increase lift on horizontal stab? |
I think I'm missing something here... If you increase the lift on your HS
then you will put the nose down. I expect you want to increase down
pressure generated by the HS to lift the nose up.
One thing to try is gap seals... With your vg's that could be a big asset.
The next thing to try is aerodynamically shaped foils... finally all thee;
vg's seals and foils. Past that you are stuck with larger surfaces, the
increase in weight and change in balance that occurs.
I expect the greatest drag will be caused by the vg's. Foils and seals
should only make the airflow more efficient.
Noel
Mod III-A
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of LarryM
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 12:55 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: How to increase lift on horizontal stab?
Dave check this link in the archives.
It's an Avid Mk4, STOL wing
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=25907&highlight=cci+vgs
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157453#157453
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: How to increase lift on horizontal stab? |
I read his article. Very well written and I will have data for the laminar
flow wing on the Kitfox shortly along with horiz data also. Clint> Subjec
t: Kitfox-List: Re: How to increase lift on horizontal stab?> From: dave@cf
isher.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:11:21 -0800> To: kitfox-list@matronics
However; in the normal cruise range with a cruise rpm of 5400 yielded 84 m
ph with the vg?s on the tail. Without the vgs, the same rpm yielded 74mph.
This is explained by the efficiencies of the tail. > > > > > Larry, that is
quite a gain. I t hink everyone should go out and try this.> > I have VGs
on my wings and have not been in any hurry to take them off. Certainly I di
d not see and gains like you did BUT i never put on tail yet. How far ahead
of Hinge line did you place them ? and what spacing? I have several kinds
of Vgs in stock here that I can try with. > > One drawback that I did notic
e is that there is less buffeting felt prior to stall. On power on stalls y
ou can go from flying to abrupt stall and most times a wing drop. I think m
ine are at about 10% of chord. My Wing is not under cambered like your eith
er if that matters> > --------> Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada> Flying Videos
and Kitfox Info> http://www.cfisher.com/> > > > > Read this topic online h
ere:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157487#157487> > > >
===> > >
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Vinyl graphics |
I think a graphics supply shop will call the material "Frisket". I used to
use it when air bushing photos. Digital is much faster and easier to
replace if the skins have to come off. Mine are on a float plane with no
lifting problems. Unless the pattern is complex use thin masking tape.
Noel
Newfoundland
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of akflyer
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 1:47 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Vinyl graphics
the plane does not look "camo" it looks like standard olive drab.
I have the local cutter make paint masks for mine. they go on like the
vinyl graphics, but are paint masks. put em on, paint, peel em off and you
have the perfect details. They cost about the same as the vinyl, but the
paint will last forever and not start lifting on ya.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
95% complete
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157468#157468
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Pros' & Cons' 912UL vs 912ULS |
I am one of the very first 912ULS Drivers. Have a Model IV-1200 with orig
912UL with IVO. At 375 hours changed it out to 912 ULS also with IVO but n
ewer and longer blade. Zero Plus 72 inch 3 blade. I have almost 1300 hour
s and would guess that almost 800 area cross country. I fly the 912ULS dif
ferent that the 912UL. At cruise I used to use full throttle at 5500 and m
y fuel burn was between 4.1 and 4.2 GPH. With the 912ULS I use 23 to 24 in
ches MP and try to keep the RPM'S around 5000 and above 5000 ft always have
the throttle back about an inch. This keeps my fuel burn almost exactly a
s the 912UL only flying 10 mph faster. Some changes in landing gear, but t
he increased compression that gains you 10 hp is free. Clint> Subject: Kit
fox-List: Re: Pros' & Cons' 912UL vs 912ULS> From: dave@cfisher.com> Date:
Thu, 10 Jan 2008 21:27:19 -0800> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com> > --> Kitfo
x-List message posted by: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>> > > > With the 912UL I
burned about 4.5 GPH. > > With the 912 ULS I burn about 5 GPH. > > > > Flo
ran Higgins > > > > > > And you said at 105 mph cruise ? not bad but you co
uld likely see 10 to 15 mph more . What have you done for fairings etc ? Wh
at size tires do you have and what prop are you running ?> > --------> Rota
x Dealer, Ontario Canada> Flying Videos and Kitfox Info> http://www.cfisher
.com/> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/
================> > >
Message 19
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| Subject: | How to increase lift on horizontal stab? |
Balance your elevator with springs. Use gap seals, put vortex generator on
bottom of stab. As good as it gets. Clint> Subject: Kitfox-List: How to
increase lift on horizontal stab?> From: CrownLJ@verizon.net> Date: Thu, 10
Jan 2008 17:57:02 -0800> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com> > --> Kitfox-List
message posted by: "LarryM" <CrownLJ@verizon.net>> > Would anyone know or b
e able to direct me to someone/where....> > I want to increase the lift of
my flat surfaced horizontal stab. It can be done by increasing the span, or
by putting airfoil shaped ribs on the underside. Any ideas on which would
have the greatest effect for the amount of work needed? The ribs would be q
uite simple, but how does one estimate the benefit?> > Thanks,> larry> > Ps
I already have vg's. They helped incredibly, but I;m on a quest for even m
ore!> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/v
========================> _
===============> > >
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: LOW power limits |
A new 912 has a TBO of 1500 hours. Thats the TBO but in reality its 2000 h
ours. How much more would you like? Clint
From: Sbennett3@aol.comDate: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:43:14 -0500Subject: Re: Ki
tfox-List: Re: LOW power limitsTo: kitfox-list@matronics.com
I wanted long distance between tbo, and less fuel burn. My perfect engine c
ombo is the 912. Oh ya, reliability ... My plane weighs 607lbs. Steve B
4-912
Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Interest in Kitfox |
Same for me. I never use the list anymore.
--------
Bob Simmons
Hopefully a Series 7 someday
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157508#157508
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Vinyl graphics |
On Jan 11, 2008, at 7:26 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
> I think a graphics supply shop will call the material "Frisket". I
> used to
> use it when air bushing photos.
He he! Been there - done that too, Noel! Put the frisket on the
artwork, then cut it with a swivel knife with enough pressure to cut
the frisket but not too much, not to cut the art board. At the time, I
was painting sailboat illustrations with airbrush. There was little
margin for error and - as you may guess - when digital tools with the
magic button "UNDO" came, I was delighted and the airbrush went on the
shelf ... where it still is.
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
Do not archive
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: LOW power limits |
On Jan 11, 2008, at 8:04 PM, Clint Bazzill wrote:
> A new 912 has a TBO of 1500 hours. Thats the TBO but in reality its
> 2000 hours.
Clint, I was told that my Jabiru 2200 had a TBO of 2,000 hours, which
was twice that of the 912, because the Jabiru has a max RPM of 3,000 -
half that of the Rotax. It made sense to me at the time. Have I been
fooled by my Jabiru dealer?
Just wondering; I know so little about engines.
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Vinyl graphics |
I found my first airbrush the other day in an old tool box with pipe
fittings. Electronic is faster cleaner and you can really exercise the
"undo" button. Working on photographs is an education with the knife
though. It can give you direction in exactly what it is you will want to
do.
Noel Loveys
AME Intern, RPP
Kitfox III-A, 582,B box
Ivo IFA, Aerocet 1100 floats
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michel
Verheughe
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Vinyl graphics
On Jan 11, 2008, at 7:26 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
> I think a graphics supply shop will call the material "Frisket". I
> used to
> use it when air bushing photos.
He he! Been there - done that too, Noel! Put the frisket on the
artwork, then cut it with a swivel knife with enough pressure to cut
the frisket but not too much, not to cut the art board. At the time, I
was painting sailboat illustrations with airbrush. There was little
margin for error and - as you may guess - when digital tools with the
magic button "UNDO" came, I was delighted and the airbrush went on the
shelf ... where it still is.
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
Do not archive
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: LOW power limits |
What I question about the Jab is the 3300 rpm... That requires a very short
prop to keep the inertial stresses down. That means that full power for
takeoff isn't either developed or efficient. What i like about it is of
course the fact you can leave the redrive at the shop :-)
Noel Loveys
AME Intern, RPP
Kitfox III-A, 582,B box
Ivo IFA, Aerocet 1100 floats
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michel
Verheughe
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 3:59 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: LOW power limits
On Jan 11, 2008, at 8:04 PM, Clint Bazzill wrote:
> A new 912 has a TBO of 1500 hours. Thats the TBO but in reality its
> 2000 hours.
Clint, I was told that my Jabiru 2200 had a TBO of 2,000 hours, which
was twice that of the 912, because the Jabiru has a max RPM of 3,000 -
half that of the Rotax. It made sense to me at the time. Have I been
fooled by my Jabiru dealer?
Just wondering; I know so little about engines.
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
Message 26
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| Subject: | Jabiru. WAS: LOW power limits |
On Jan 11, 2008, at 8:52 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
> What I question about the Jab is the 3300 rpm... That requires a very
> short
> prop to keep the inertial stresses down. That means that full power
> for
> takeoff isn't either developed or efficient. What i like about it is
> of
> course the fact you can leave the redrive at the shop :-)
I have a Jabiru 60 by 38" two-blades fixed pitch wood prop, Noel. I
don't know if that is short or not; I don't know much about these
things. From what I understand, I have less torque for take-off. But it
is not my concern; I fly from a long asphalt runway. As you probably
know, I went from a Rotax 582 to the Jabiru. My decision was based on
the reliability and long TBO of a four-strokes engine; plus the light
weight and simplicity of a air-cooled and direct drive engine.
Take-off performance is about the same as the 582. At cruise attitude,
I need less power to keep 85 MPH, my cruise speed with the model 3. I
burn a bit less fuel and it is a quiet and smooth ride. Last, the
Jabiru 2200 is only slightly heavier than the 582 and, in order to keep
my CoG at the same place, I only had to move the battery from the
firewall to behind the seat.
The negative sides of the Jabiru are:
- Limited propeller choice.
- Needs a new cowling to accommodate for the boxer type engine.
Otherwise, I am quite pleased with it and I think that Lynn is too.
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru. WAS: LOW power limits |
Absolutely, Michel and Noel. I'm not sure what short is, but I gather
my 62" (x46") is shorter by comparison to the 72-inchers, or whatever
the redrive crowd uses. But then, my engine got me across the country
last year at a pretty economical rate, I didn't lose a drop of
coolant, and didn't have to listen to, and worry about, a tach
reading of 5000+ rpm. In my case, a Sport Pilot, I can't fly with an
in-flight-adjustable prop anyway, so my prop choices are not that
limited. I just can't use a ground adjustable at the present time,
according to Jabiru, unless that's changed recently. My plane gets
off the ground in about 250 feet the last time I cared to check,
sometimes less. I usually fly alone, can kick the butts of the
spamcans that are foolish enough to try to outclimb me, but I'm
realistic enough to know that the screaming Rotax's would probably
outclimb me, so why get into that. It's all about what you want to do
with the plane, how you want to fly, and how you want the engine to
sound. I can't count the times I've heard "At least your plane
SOUNDS like a real plane."
Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/450+ hrs
On Jan 11, 2008, at 3:58 PM, Michel Verheughe wrote:
>
> On Jan 11, 2008, at 8:52 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
>> What I question about the Jab is the 3300 rpm... That requires a
>> very short
>> prop to keep the inertial stresses down. That means that full
>> power for
>> takeoff isn't either developed or efficient. What i like about it
>> is of
>> course the fact you can leave the redrive at the shop :-)
>
> I have a Jabiru 60 by 38" two-blades fixed pitch wood prop, Noel. I
> don't know if that is short or not; I don't know much about these
> things. From what I understand, I have less torque for take-off.
> But it is not my concern; I fly from a long asphalt runway. As you
> probably know, I went from a Rotax 582 to the Jabiru. My decision
> was based on the reliability and long TBO of a four-strokes engine;
> plus the light weight and simplicity of a air-cooled and direct
> drive engine.
> Take-off performance is about the same as the 582. At cruise
> attitude, I need less power to keep 85 MPH, my cruise speed with
> the model 3. I burn a bit less fuel and it is a quiet and smooth
> ride. Last, the Jabiru 2200 is only slightly heavier than the 582
> and, in order to keep my CoG at the same place, I only had to move
> the battery from the firewall to behind the seat.
> The negative sides of the Jabiru are:
> - Limited propeller choice.
> - Needs a new cowling to accommodate for the boxer type engine.
> Otherwise, I am quite pleased with it and I think that Lynn is too.
>
> Cheers,
> Michel Verheughe
> Norway
> Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
>
>
Message 28
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-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jdmcbean
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 1:36 PM
Subject: Lapel (hat) Pin RE: Kitfox-List: First Flight
OK... This seems like a good time to release the First Flight Lapel (Hat)
Pin....
Here's the deal.. We have made a set KITFOX FIRST FLIGHT WINGS.. It is only
available for those that are the builder/owner of the aircraft at the time
of the First Flight. It is truly a moment to be proud of !
What we are asking for is to fill out information that we can submit to EAA,
Kitplanes and put up on our web. It also gives us a chance to identify
those that do not mind being referrals for us.
Hopefully we'll have the info up on the web shortly... but in the mean time
here is the PDF.
Did your first flight 5 years ago.. send in the info.. This is not just for
the future first flights...
Thanks for being part of the Kitfox Family !!!
Fly Safe !!
John & Debra McBean
208.337.5111
www.kitfoxaircraft.com
"It's not how Fast... It's how Fun!"
1:34 PM
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: LOW power limits |
Anyone know what the average cost of an overhaul is on a 912?
Just trying to get a real idea on the cost of owning...
Ron
Clint Bazzill wrote:
>
> A new 912 has a TBO of 1500 hours. Thats the TBO but in reality its
> 2000 hours. How much more would you like? Clint
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From: Sbennett3@aol.com
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:43:14 -0500
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: LOW power limits
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
> I wanted long distance between tbo, and less fuel burn. My perfect
> engine combo is the 912. Oh ya, reliability ... My plane weighs
> 607lbs. Steve B 4-912
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape
> <http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489>
> in the new year.
>
> *
>
> arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
> p://forums.matronics.com
> blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: LOW power limits |
Michael,
I think the Jabiru is a nice engine. Am going to write a nice long article
about these different engines. My friend had (had) a very nice Avid MK4 t
hat he had a Rotax 618. Almost had one myself and he had several engine fa
ilures. He decided to put in a different 4 stroke engine. I tried to talk
him into a 912 but he insisted on the Jabiru. I have flown with him for a
bout 8 hours in his plane, he liked it as it kept running. He sold it a fe
w months ago and I am 100% sure if he had installed the 912UL he would stil
l have it. The performance would have been so much better that he couldn't
part with it. More on that later. Clint> From: michel@online.no> Subject
: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: LOW power limits> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:29:23 +0
chel Verheughe <michel@online.no>> > On Jan 11, 2008, at 8:04 PM, Clint Baz
zill wrote:> > A new 912 has a TBO of 1500 hours. Thats the TBO but in rea
lity its > > 2000 hours.> > Clint, I was told that my Jabiru 2200 had a TBO
of 2,000 hours, which > was twice that of the 912, because the Jabiru has
a max RPM of 3,000 - > half that of the Rotax. It made sense to me at the t
ime. Have I been > fooled by my Jabiru dealer?> Just wondering; I know so l
ittle about engines.> > Cheers,> Michel Verheughe> Norway> Kitfox 3 - Jabir
====> > >
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru. WAS: LOW power limits |
> I can't count the times I've heard "At least your plane
> SOUNDS like a real plane."
>
Yes the GA crowd always has something to say about a real airplane.
Cuz of the sound ? yah OK ....... Oh yes I do the like the of my old 185 cranking
down the harbour pissing off everyone but a few pilots :)
I have flown from motorized Hang gliders to light twins and have no problem with
a Rotax engine that does not sound like real airplane.
Most of these " real pilots " that fly "real airplanes" are just ignorant to Rotax
engines. Real engines weigh Real weight.
How many "real airplanes" can carry their own REAL WEIGHT ?
yah i thought so . just more hangar talk from a guy that flys his BFR and a few
check out flights annually.
Check it out - Real videos of Kitfox that flys but so not sound real ROFLMAO.................. http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=kitfoxflyer
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157559#157559
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: LOW power limits |
I have 803hrs. ttaf and it still runs like a champ... Steve B 4-912
**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: LOW power limits |
Which Jabiru engine did he have? How well was it set up and did he have 100
hours one it. Many Jab owners say their engine continues to perform better
up through the first 100 hours. To get their performance Rotax owners often
resort to more expensive and complex adjustable props. What is the
difference in the part count? And of course performance will be better with
a Jabiru 3300, 120 hp engine, than with a Jabiru 2200, 80 hp engine. Older
and newer Jabiru models also have different carburetor jetting among other
engine changes. It will be a while before we really know how these engines
match up and maintain. All of us have an interest in the engines we invest
in. I submit to you that it is rare to have someone not advocate the
engine they know and own. Likewise our research tends to lead to the
outcome we expect.
In the end we are fortunate to have more good engine choice than ever
before.
Jim Crowder
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Clint Bazzill
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 4:51 PM
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: LOW power limits
Michael,
I think the Jabiru is a nice engine. Am going to write a nice long
article about these different engines. My friend had (had) a very nice Avid
MK4 that he had a Rotax 618. Almost had one myself and he had several
engine failures. He decided to put in a different 4 stroke engine. I tried
to talk him into a 912 but he insisted on the Jabiru. I have flown with him
for about 8 hours in his plane, he liked it as it kept running. He sold it
a few months ago and I am 100% sure if he had installed the 912UL he would
still have it. The performance would have been so much better that he
couldn't part with it. More on that later. Clint
> From: michel@online.no
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: LOW power limits
> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 20:29:23 +0100
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
>
> On Jan 11, 2008, at 8:04 PM, Clint Bazzill wrote:
> > A new 912 has a TBO of 1500 hours. Thats the TBO but in reality its
> > 2000 hours.
>
> Clint, I was told that my Jabiru 2200 had a TBO of 2,000 hours, which
> was twice that of the 912, because the Jabiru has a max RPM of 3,000 -
> half that of the Rotax. It made sense to me at the time. Have I been
> fooled by my Jabiru dealer?
> Just wondering; I know so little about engines.
>
> Cheers,
> Michel Verheughe
> Norway
> Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2======================
&g=
>
>
>
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: How to increase lift on horizontal stab? |
The tail does have seals - did nothing. I do want more lift at the horizontal
stab to push the nose down. I have too high of an attitude at slow speeds causing
the tail to hit way too soon, and I still have lift left in the wing when
it partially stalls, with the stick full aft. I figure any increase in lift
at the tail will help both situations.
When I hold the stick aft to the limit, it simply raises the nose, then drops the
nose, then raises, and so on. In fact if I do an extreme slip and with the
stick full aft, it will not even "break" like a stall, but just comes slips down
like a lead sled. I do not spin it, as the wings will not remain stalled
and a spiral is instantly is generated and can quick exceed the normal speeds.
The VG's are spaced about an inch forward of the hinge line and about 1" apart.
The apparent speed gain was realize with the VG's installed only on the tail.
I now have some on the wing at about 6%, and I can't "see" difference in
slow speed, and the OAT has changed since testing before, so an apples to apples
comparison can't be made right now. I did plan on moving them to several locations
to see whats best, but haven't moved them since I put them on last year.
On the slow speed end, I can't rightfully comment on the effectiveness,
as the elevator is the weak link for now - the wing has more lift than I can extract.
Has anyone put an airfoil under the stab?
Thanks,
larry
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157569#157569
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: How to increase lift on horizontal stab? |
Noel,
What I'm thinking is that as the angle of attack is increased, the center of
lift moves forward, hence the attitude of the airplane is increased. If I could
get the same angle of attack without the cp moving so far forward (which we
can't with a given airfoil) then I could have a flatter attitude with for the
same angle of attack. Since the cp can't be kept back, that only leaves changing
the contribution that the tail makes to lower the nose at any given AoA.
The overall desire result is slower speed due to the elevator being able to generate
the higher AoA, and having a shallower pitch angle so I don't slam the
tail on before the mains. What do you think?
larry
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157570#157570
Message 36
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| Subject: | Jabiru. WAS: LOW power limits |
Lynn do you take your jab all the way up to 3300??? That's screaming for a
direct drive!
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 6:13 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Jabiru. WAS: LOW power limits
Absolutely, Michel and Noel. I'm not sure what short is, but I gather
my 62" (x46") is shorter by comparison to the 72-inchers, or whatever
the redrive crowd uses. But then, my engine got me across the country
last year at a pretty economical rate, I didn't lose a drop of
coolant, and didn't have to listen to, and worry about, a tach
reading of 5000+ rpm. In my case, a Sport Pilot, I can't fly with an
in-flight-adjustable prop anyway, so my prop choices are not that
limited. I just can't use a ground adjustable at the present time,
according to Jabiru, unless that's changed recently. My plane gets
off the ground in about 250 feet the last time I cared to check,
sometimes less. I usually fly alone, can kick the butts of the
spamcans that are foolish enough to try to outclimb me, but I'm
realistic enough to know that the screaming Rotax's would probably
outclimb me, so why get into that. It's all about what you want to do
with the plane, how you want to fly, and how you want the engine to
sound. I can't count the times I've heard "At least your plane
SOUNDS like a real plane."
Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/450+ hrs
On Jan 11, 2008, at 3:58 PM, Michel Verheughe wrote:
>
> On Jan 11, 2008, at 8:52 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
>> What I question about the Jab is the 3300 rpm... That requires a
>> very short
>> prop to keep the inertial stresses down. That means that full
>> power for
>> takeoff isn't either developed or efficient. What i like about it
>> is of
>> course the fact you can leave the redrive at the shop :-)
>
> I have a Jabiru 60 by 38" two-blades fixed pitch wood prop, Noel. I
> don't know if that is short or not; I don't know much about these
> things. From what I understand, I have less torque for take-off.
> But it is not my concern; I fly from a long asphalt runway. As you
> probably know, I went from a Rotax 582 to the Jabiru. My decision
> was based on the reliability and long TBO of a four-strokes engine;
> plus the light weight and simplicity of a air-cooled and direct
> drive engine.
> Take-off performance is about the same as the 582. At cruise
> attitude, I need less power to keep 85 MPH, my cruise speed with
> the model 3. I burn a bit less fuel and it is a quiet and smooth
> ride. Last, the Jabiru 2200 is only slightly heavier than the 582
> and, in order to keep my CoG at the same place, I only had to move
> the battery from the firewall to behind the seat.
> The negative sides of the Jabiru are:
> - Limited propeller choice.
> - Needs a new cowling to accommodate for the boxer type engine.
> Otherwise, I am quite pleased with it and I think that Lynn is too.
>
> Cheers,
> Michel Verheughe
> Norway
> Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: How to increase lift on horizontal stab? |
Larry
I think the only way you are going to get the flying characteristic
that you are looking for is to move your cg forward. Doing this may
result in a slight decrease in cruise speed. Where is your cg now?
Jim
What I'm thinking is that as the angle of attack is increased, the
center of lift moves forward, hence the attitude of the airplane is
increased. If I could get the same angle of attack without the cp
moving so far forward (which we can't with a given airfoil) then I
could have a flatter attitude with for the same angle of attack.
Since the cp can't be kept back, that only leaves changing the
contribution that the tail makes to lower the nose at any given AoA.
The overall desire result is slower speed due to the elevator being
able to generate the higher AoA, and having a shallower pitch angle
so I don't slam the tail on before the mains. What do you think?
larry
Jim Corner
Model 2, 582,. Ivo med !FA, 1100 hrs
Model 5 under construction
Calgary, AB
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| Subject: | Ignition pb on 582 |
Hi,
I have been trying to solve a problem of ignition on my 582 (on Kitfox IV), but
I am not fully satisfied so far. Maybe one of you already had the same type of
problem and could help me?
Here is my story: I detected a failure of ignition on one of the circuits during
descent (only), when the engine cools down. In these conditions, with only this
circuit on (let's call it circuit 1) , sometimes engine does nor run smoothly,
and sometimes even stop. With the other circuit on only (circuit 2) everything
is fine.
I inverted the two external coils (the black electronic blocs) to identify the
source of the problem. Same result, circuit 1 still fails, which means the problem
is in the stator or the position sensor.
I then inverted the connections of the two sensors, to identify if the problem
is in the stator or in the sensors. Guess what, now everything is running perfect
on circuit 1 and on circuit 2! Ambient temperature was a little warmed for
this last test, but apart from that nothing else was changed.
I was suspecting a bad position adjustment of one of the sensor (gap between the
sensor and the rotor), but now I am not really sure. Now everything runs fine,
but I don't know why!
Of course, to have access to inspect the stator and sensors, I would need to remove
completely the engine from my Kitfox...
Has any of you already had this type of funny story?
Thanks in advance and happy flying in 2008!
Renaud
--------
Renaud
KitFox IV - 1200. Rotax 582.
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157589#157589
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