Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:12 AM - Re: Cleaning Seat Covers (Michel Verheughe)
2. 01:21 AM - Re: engine selection (Michel Verheughe)
3. 02:42 AM - Re: Re: How to increase lift on horizontal stab? (JC Propeller Design)
4. 03:08 AM - Re: LOW power limits (dave)
5. 03:31 AM - Re: Wing Tank Finger Fuel Strainers (dave)
6. 03:33 AM - Re: How to increase lift on horizontal stab? (dave)
7. 03:48 AM - Re: Re: LOW power limits (Dave G.)
8. 03:49 AM - Re: Mandatory Gearbox SB on 912/914's - Check yours (dave)
9. 03:57 AM - Re: LOW power limits (dave)
10. 04:25 AM - Re: Maximum Miles Per Gallon in a Kitfox? (dave)
11. 05:29 AM - Re: Re: engine selection (Lynn Matteson)
12. 06:13 AM - Re: Cleaning Seat Covers (Sbennett3@aol.com)
13. 06:35 AM - float questions (vetdrem)
14. 06:55 AM - Re: Re: engine selection (Dave G.)
15. 07:02 AM - Re: Maximum Miles Per Gallon in a Kitfox? (wingnut)
16. 09:38 AM - Re: Re: engine selection (Lynn Matteson)
17. 10:41 AM - Flaperon wanted (fox5flyer)
18. 10:41 AM - Engine Choices (Marco Menezes)
19. 11:38 AM - Re: Re: engine selection (Michel Verheughe)
20. 11:47 AM - Re: Engine Choices (paul wilson)
21. 12:01 PM - Re: Engine Choices (jdmcbean)
22. 12:02 PM - Jabiru Firewall forward - engine selection (jdmcbean)
23. 12:31 PM - (Stewarts system) How much paint needed? (Kitfox George)
24. 12:55 PM - Re: (Stewarts system) How much paint needed? (Dave G.)
25. 01:48 PM - Re: engine selection (av8rps)
26. 01:54 PM - [ Dee Young ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares)
27. 02:14 PM - Re: float questions (dave)
28. 02:16 PM - Re: Jabiru Firewall forward - engine selection (dave)
29. 02:21 PM - Re: Engine Choices (av8rps)
30. 02:35 PM - Re: Engine Choices (av8rps)
31. 03:16 PM - Re: Re: engine selection (Lynn Matteson)
32. 03:17 PM - Performance specifications (Keith Jeffs)
33. 03:20 PM - Re: Re: Engine Choices (paul wilson)
34. 03:32 PM - Re: Re: Engine Choices (Lynn Matteson)
35. 03:32 PM - Re: Re: Engine Choices (Lynn Matteson)
36. 03:34 PM - Re: Maximum Miles Per Gallon in a Kitfox? (av8rps)
37. 04:26 PM - Re: engine selection (av8rps)
38. 05:15 PM - Re: (Stewarts system) How much paint needed? (Donroutledge@aol.com)
39. 05:19 PM - Re: Wanted Douglas Wheel(s) (Bob Jones)
40. 05:57 PM - Re: Re: engine selection (KITFOXZ@aol.com)
41. 06:22 PM - Re: Re: engine selection (Lynn Matteson)
42. 07:21 PM - Douglas Wheel(s) and tires (Dee Young)
43. 07:43 PM - Re: Cleaning Seat Covers (Don G)
44. 08:30 PM - Re: Re: Cleaning Seat Covers (84KF)
45. 08:58 PM - Re: Re: Engine Choices (Marco Menezes)
46. 09:00 PM - Re: Re: Engine Choices (Marco Menezes)
47. 09:08 PM - Re: Re: engine selection (Marco Menezes)
48. 09:09 PM - Re: Re: engine selection (Marco Menezes)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Cleaning Seat Covers |
On Jan 13, 2008, at 8:36 AM, John Allen wrote:
> Does anyone know if the Kitfox seat covers supplied by
> Skystar can be dry cleaned, or how to clean them?
> They appear to be synthetic with foam and plastic.
I took mine to the shop last summer, John. They said that they didn't
dare to dry-clean it but they used another method. I don't know exactly
what they did but it was a good job. I suggest you take yours to your
dry-cleaning shop and ask their professional advice.
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: engine selection |
On Jan 13, 2008, at 2:21 AM, Noel Loveys wrote:
> Did you install a pressure cowl to direct cold air down through the
> cooling
> fins?
I did as much as I can what is done on the Jabiru aircraft, Noel. I use
the Jabiru ram-air ducts with the in-built deflectors. I measured the
openings for the two ducts and the oil cooler from a Jabiru aircraft
then moulded from my own cowling, something that matches exactly that.
I made the opening under the firewall with a 'lip' so that it would
create a low pressure and suck the air through the cowling. As a
result, I never have cylinder temperature problem.
But one must also remember that a propeller is a part of the propulsion
unit. For example, I read that some propeller are good, but not good
for an air-cooled engine because there is not enough pitch at the root
of the blade.
My Scandinavian Jabiru dealer buys both engines and aircraft that he
ships from Australia in containers. He has built many Jabiru aircraft
and I did the right thing: Follow his instructions by the letter. Then,
when the engine was installed, I flew my Kitfox to the other side of
Norway, where he lives, and showed it the engine. Apart from a couple
of small details, he said: "Good job, lad!"
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: How to increase lift on horizontal stab? |
Ok Larry
Now even I understand what you mean, you wasn't that much off.
The Tail is there for stability and control, it doesn't do anything for
lift. but you can improve it so you gab get most out of the wing.
As I said flaps increase lift, without having to increase angle of the
aircraft, it really work the opposite, wing will stall at a lower angle
relative the basic airfoil, with flap.
But the effective AOA is increased when flap is deployed, if you draw a line
from trailing edge of flap to the nose of airfoil you see what I mean.
Increasing the span of the horiz. plane is a good way to increase
effectiveness. an airfoil isn't bad either, maybe with some camber 1% or so
(upside down) and making the elevator 10% thicker then the basic airfoil at
the hingeline.
I would keep the washout in wings, better safe then sorrow.
Jan
Ps. just make sure you have power to overcome the extra drag from effective
flaps...
----- Original Message -----
From: "LarryM" <CrownLJ@verizon.net>
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 12:23 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: How to increase lift on horizontal stab?
>
> Ok. I need to retract a lot of what I said. It might be just as easy to
> ask to erase everything, and I?Tll explain what should be. When I spoke
> to the designer I mis-communicated what I was trying to achieve, therefore
> we were not talking about the same thing. Please accept my apologies.
> (Though I still wonder if anyone has experience to which would be more
> effective; airfoil stab or increased length?)
>
> I spoke to him again today and simply asked ?ohow can I achieve a lower
> aircraft attitude at a high AoA?? His responses were: adjust the
> flaperons down to just above the point of aileron reversal when fully
> deployed. (reversal will come around 25-30 degrees) and; to increase the
> chord of the flaperons and; to raise the angle of incidence of the wing
> and to adjust the horizontal stab to keep the same relationship.
>
> To increase the stab was to answer elevator effectiveness, as was the
> airfoil. I had already employed his other recommendations of gap seals,
> increase elevator size, and VG?Ts.
>
> Again, I apologize for my gross miscommunication and I tank everyone for
> their inputs.
>
> I plan to ensure max flaperon deployment and perhaps enlarge them as
> suggested. I am also going to extend the gear 6?, and take the wash out
> out of the wing.
>
> larry
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157699#157699
>
>
> __________ NOD32 2778 (20080109) Information __________
>
>
>
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: LOW power limits |
> I do my
> flying right now in an 11,000 hour Cessna, not exactly a "king of climb",
> it's adequate.
>
Well, once you get going in your Kitfox, the Cessna will perform very feeble if
you go back.
How long till you get flying your Kitfox ?
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157777#157777
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Wing Tank Finger Fuel Strainers |
Mr funnel is available very easy just click on link and you all set
http://www.cfisher.com/mrfunnel.html
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157778#157778
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: How to increase lift on horizontal stab? |
Larry , What model AVid do you have anyhow ?
The flaps on AVID HH i have flown are restricted and I never found them to be
as usefull as mine on the Kitfox IV - I do get over 30 degree down and they are
a really attribute to getting off quicker. Avids i think might see 15 degrees
if that.
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157779#157779
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: LOW power limits |
Sort of depends on the weather. I didn't put heat in the workshop. I started
putting fabric on in the fall and didn't like my workmanship so I removed it
and started again. I might buy a heater and get a headstart. I should have
been flying this last year. So, the short answer is I don't know, but I'm
not in a hurry.
Dave Goddard- Mod IV 1050/582
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 7:08 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: LOW power limits
>
>
>> I do my
>> flying right now in an 11,000 hour Cessna, not exactly a "king of climb",
>> it's adequate.
>>
>
>
> Well, once you get going in your Kitfox, the Cessna will perform very
> feeble if you go back.
>
> How long till you get flying your Kitfox ?
>
> --------
> Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
> Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
> http://www.cfisher.com/
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157777#157777
>
>
>
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Mandatory Gearbox SB on 912/914's - Check yours |
This is what Bob had to say about it ...
It only effects the 912-S series.... unless you had your gear box
rebuilt, then you need to check the serial no.'s on the gear set. Very few
engines/gear boxes in Canada are effected.
If you did have your gear drive serviced and the gears replaced, check your
work order.
regards
Bob Robertson
Light Engine Services Ltd.
Rotax Service Center
Aero Control Enterprises, Inc.
St. Albert, Ab. T8N 1M8
Ph: (Tech Support) 1-780-418-4164
Ph: (Order Line) 1-866-418-4164 (TOLL FREE)
www.rtx-av-engines.ca
www.aerocontrols.net
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157780#157780
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: LOW power limits |
Heat a great thing, Best money i ever spent on insulation is the spray foam.
We have our shop done and over 1/2 of our house. Incredible.!!!
Once the wx warms up you could likely get it done in a few weeks. If that inspiration
or what ?
What covering did you go with afterall? Did I tell you that Leavens has 1.7 uncertified
? Would be suitable for you and superseam glue ( the old Rand o bond)
I think it owned by super-seam now. Easy to work with and you want to get
some contravery going ? use controversy Paint LOL
Works great on our planes, mind you we are not going 150 mph.
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157782#157782
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Maximum Miles Per Gallon in a Kitfox? |
> And if I removed those big, heavy, bulky amphib floats I have on it currently,
I'm sure I would do better.
>
Paul, I have the same floats as you do with the exception of the yellow paint
and loose nice fittings :) I think if you took them off you would be surprised
on how little drag they actually have . On mine I lose about 5% or 6 %
of cruise only.
Kitfox still cheap to run , cheaper to buy and FUN FUN FUN
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157784#157784
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: engine selection |
And just to keep the truth available to the public, Jabiru is NOT the
best company in the world to alert the buyer about potential
problems. They don't have an alert system in place to do that, but us
buyers are hoping they will someday. The info is out there, but the
owner has to go looking for it. You'd think that every buyer of one
of their engines would be on a mailing list, or at least a list in
the dealer's possession, but apparently they don't work that way...yet.
Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/460+ hrs
do not archive
On Jan 12, 2008, at 11:31 PM, av8rps wrote:
> No one builds a perfect, problem free product. Big companies tend
> to have systems and procedures (or whole divisions) in place to
> make sure as they learn about problems, they work to solve them and
> then inform their customers, in the case it may affect them. Small
> companies are usually too small to be quite so organized, or have
> the number of products in service to provide a good database of
> problems, so the customer doesn't usually hear anything unless they
> have catastrophic failures that can't be ignored. Rotax/bombardier
> certainly qualifies as a large aircraft engine!
> mfr, not to mention also has certified aircraft engines in
> service around the world. Therefore they have a good system in
> place to alert their customers of any issues that might concern them.
>
> Paul Seehafer
>
> --------
> Model IV-1200 912ul Amphib
> Avid Flyer
> Lake Amphibian
> Central Wisconsin
> paul676@tds.net
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157761#157761
>
>
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Cleaning Seat Covers |
John, I had mildew growing on my seats and removed them from the plane. I
sprayed them with a bleach solution and scrubbed them with a scrub brush.
Bleach mixture was 1 bleach to 3 water. Let it sit for appx 10 minutes then rinse
and leave in the sun to dry... Worked for me. Steve Bennett 4-1200 912ul.
**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
I have a KF 3 with a 912 and GSC 3 blade wood prop. I bought a set of Aerocet
1100 amphib floats for it that have been on a mod 4 and I have a couple questions.
Where can I get repair parts for the floats, and will my prop stand up to the task.
I was told that the spray will tear it up immediately.
Thanks
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157797#157797
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: engine selection |
Hi Lynn, it could be worse. The Jabiru dealers here in Canada are so
unresponsive, I wondered if they had gone out of business on the Jabiru
list. All I wanted was a little information. They awoke from their coma long
enough to call me a liar on the Jabiru list and promply went back to sleep.
I cannot get any response from them at all. I've resolved to not worry about
the engine for now but I won't spend money with these guys at all. There are
a lot of enines out there, Rotax is the safest bet at this time.
Dave Goddard- Mod IV 1050/582
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: engine selection
>
> And just to keep the truth available to the public, Jabiru is NOT the
> best company in the world to alert the buyer about potential problems.
> They don't have an alert system in place to do that, but us buyers are
> hoping they will someday. The info is out there, but the owner has to go
> looking for it. You'd think that every buyer of one of their engines
> would be on a mailing list, or at least a list in the dealer's
> possession, but apparently they don't work that way...yet.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Grass Lake, Michigan
> Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
> flying w/460+ hrs
> do not archive
>
>
> On Jan 12, 2008, at 11:31 PM, av8rps wrote:
>> No one builds a perfect, problem free product. Big companies tend to
>> have systems and procedures (or whole divisions) in place to make sure
>> as they learn about problems, they work to solve them and then inform
>> their customers, in the case it may affect them. Small companies are
>> usually too small to be quite so organized, or have the number of
>> products in service to provide a good database of problems, so the
>> customer doesn't usually hear anything unless they have catastrophic
>> failures that can't be ignored. Rotax/bombardier certainly qualifies as
>> a large aircraft engine!
>> mfr, not to mention also has certified aircraft engines in service
>> around the world. Therefore they have a good system in place to alert
>> their customers of any issues that might concern them.
>>
>> Paul Seehafer
>>
>> --------
>> Model IV-1200 912ul Amphib
>> Avid Flyer
>> Lake Amphibian
>> Central Wisconsin
>> paul676@tds.net
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157761#157761
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Maximum Miles Per Gallon in a Kitfox? |
Very interesting. How are you measuring your fuel burn? Makes me wonder what one
of those slippery motor gliders would produce.
> It was a perfectly calm evening around 75 degrees, around 2500 msl, and I was
very light on fuel (8-10 gallons), with a 200 pound cabin load. After lots of
playing around I discovered that 65 mph TAS was the best airspeed. The mimimal
throttle setting I needed to maintain level flight showed I only needed 1.1
gallons per hour of fuel. Doing the math, that provided me with a 59 miles per
gallon fuel mileage rating!
--------
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157801#157801
Message 16
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: engine selection |
I've only had two issues with my engine, and resolved both by myself.
I mentioned both issues to all three dealers in the United States,
and none had heard of the problems I had. At the time I had gone over
the 200 hr warranty/guarantee so I wasn't even looking for their
help. I did however, have a muffler fail, (within the 200) that was
my own fault for modifying it and not physically supporting the
modification, and they backed that mistake. So other than not having
a direct pipeline from the company to the owner, my dealer has stood
by my engine. I subscribed to the Rotax Service Bulletin...or
whatever it's called...just to see how they handle their customer
notification system, and I've got to say, it's pretty impressive.
Given the length of time they've been cranking out the motors, Rotax
should be the leader in customer satisfaction. Now if J can copy R's
information pipeline, a whole lot of J owners will be a lot happier
Of course I can't let this opportunity pass:
Maybe J doesn't feel like they need to work on their customer
satisfaction problem, because the customers are already satisfied
just owning a J...not buying that? I didn't think so, but in these
current times of political BS, I thought I might try to fly that
one. : )
Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 (pretty well satisfied owner)
flying w/460+ hrs
On Jan 13, 2008, at 9:55 AM, Dave G. wrote:
>
> Hi Lynn, it could be worse. The Jabiru dealers here in Canada are
> so unresponsive, I wondered if they had gone out of business on the
> Jabiru list. All I wanted was a little information. They awoke from
> their coma long enough to call me a liar on the Jabiru list and
> promply went back to sleep. I cannot get any response from them at
> all. I've resolved to not worry about the engine for now but I
> won't spend money with these guys at all. There are a lot of enines
> out there, Rotax is the safest bet at this time.
>
> Dave Goddard- Mod IV 1050/582
> do not archive
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 9:28 AM
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: engine selection
>
>
>>
>> And just to keep the truth available to the public, Jabiru is NOT
>> the best company in the world to alert the buyer about potential
>> problems. They don't have an alert system in place to do that, but
>> us buyers are hoping they will someday. The info is out there,
>> but the owner has to go looking for it. You'd think that every
>> buyer of one of their engines would be on a mailing list, or at
>> least a list in the dealer's possession, but apparently they
>> don't work that way...yet.
>>
>> Lynn Matteson
Message 17
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
I have a friend who is in need of a starboard flaperon for his model 3.
If anybody knows where one can be located, please let me know off list.
Thanks,
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT
"Nothing will ever be attempted, if all possible objections must first
be overcome".- Samuel Johnson
Message 18
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Ok guys. I've started the spreadsheet. Add to and improve it as you can.
Marco Menezes
Model 2 582 N99KX
---------------------------------
Message 19
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: engine selection |
On Jan 13, 2008, at 6:36 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote:
> Now if J can copy R's information pipeline, a whole lot of J owners
> will be a lot happier
I agree that Jabiru has a lot to learn from Rotax when it comes to
customer support. This being said, I could be because - as opposed to
Rotax - Jabiru makes engines to primarily power their aircraft. Maybe
they provide better customer support to those who buy Jabiru aircraft,
I don't know.
I can also add that while I was pleased with the engine, I think they
could improve their user manual. It looks like a PDF document where
different engineers have individually added different notes ... which
is probably how it went.
I think that Jabiru leaves entirely customer support to the national
dealers. Then it's a matter of meeting the 'nice and friendly dealer.'
I met mine. He even calls me by phone now and then, to enquire how
things are going. When somebody writes something on the Jabiru list, he
writes to me, in Norwegian, giving me his version of the problem. So, I
am quite please with my dealer but I understand that not everyone has
the same experience. Ah well, I am the lucky guy, I know! :-)
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
Message 20
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Engine Choices |
Hi Marco,
Keep digging. Here are my comments:
A word of caution about the weights. I have been on this list since
day 1 and I still doubt the weights quoted. For example is the
coolant included and what about the oil? Then there is the radiator
and oil cooler. No idea if these things are ever included in engine
weight. Then every guy has minor differences and may use an aluminum
vs copper radiator or not even use the recommended oil cooler. Do the
j guys always use the tiny oil cooler or the hard to install air box?
Do the guys quoting weight include the engine mount, if so is it the
heavy or light R912 one?
Probably no a solution to this weight delemia.
Anyway maybe you can add the prop rpm for the two different gear
boxes for the R912 engines, since one of the advantages of the R912
is the lower prop speed, thus more efficiency and less noise. Just
something to keep in mind. I cannot quantify this.
Cruise Hp & fuel burn are the long term things to make you happy.
Lower initial cost is great for getting started. Reserve power like
the J3300 has is worthwhile, but the higher fuel burn is the downside
(not IMO).
Great customer support from multiple service centers and factory is
unequalled with Rotax. Certainly a real bonus. A personal decision.
LOL, Paul W
=====================
At 10:41 AM 1/13/2008, you wrote:
>Ok guys. I've started the spreadsheet. Add to and improve it as you can.
>
>Marco Menezes
>Model 2 582 N99KX
>
Message 21
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Marco,
TBO on Jabiru is 2000 bottom and 1000 top
TBO on the Rotax is 1500
Fly Safe !!
John & Debra McBean
208.337.5111
www.kitfoxaircraft.com
"It's not how Fast... It's how Fun!"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Marco Menezes
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 11:41 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Engine Choices
Ok guys. I've started the spreadsheet. Add to and improve it as you can.
Marco Menezes
Model 2 582 N99KX
12:23 PM
Message 22
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Jabiru Firewall forward - engine selection |
We have been working on this for a bit now and can now offer Jabiru engine,
mount, firewall and cowlings for the 3300...
Fly Safe !!
John & Debra McBean
208.337.5111
www.kitfoxaircraft.com
"It's not how Fast... It's how Fun!"
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Michel Verheughe
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: engine selection
On Jan 13, 2008, at 6:36 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote:
> Now if J can copy R's information pipeline, a whole lot of J owners
> will be a lot happier
I agree that Jabiru has a lot to learn from Rotax when it comes to
customer support. This being said, I could be because - as opposed to
Rotax - Jabiru makes engines to primarily power their aircraft. Maybe
they provide better customer support to those who buy Jabiru aircraft,
I don't know.
I can also add that while I was pleased with the engine, I think they
could improve their user manual. It looks like a PDF document where
different engineers have individually added different notes ... which
is probably how it went.
I think that Jabiru leaves entirely customer support to the national
dealers. Then it's a matter of meeting the 'nice and friendly dealer.'
I met mine. He even calls me by phone now and then, to enquire how
things are going. When somebody writes something on the Jabiru list, he
writes to me, in Norwegian, giving me his version of the problem. So, I
am quite please with my dealer but I understand that not everyone has
the same experience. Ah well, I am the lucky guy, I know! :-)
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
12:23 PM
12:23 PM
Message 23
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | (Stewarts system) How much paint needed? |
I cannot use Poly system because of allergic reaction to the chemicals, so my options
are limited. I am ready to cover my Kitfox 7 with the Dacron frabric, I
already have, and was hoping someone with a 5,6, or 7 have tried the system.
How much Glue, filler and paint is needed and any other I need to know items?
Thanks
Message 24
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: (Stewarts system) How much paint needed? |
Just call them up or email them and they'll advise you. I'm very
impressed with the support I've recieved.
Dave Goddard- Mod IV 1050/582
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Kitfox George
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 4:31 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: (Stewarts system) How much paint needed?
I cannot use Poly system because of allergic reaction to the
chemicals, so my options are limited. I am ready to cover my Kitfox 7
with the Dacron frabric, I already have, and was hoping someone with a
5,6, or 7 have tried the system. How much Glue, filler and paint is
needed and any other I need to know items?
Thanks
Message 25
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: engine selection |
("Lynn Matteson says "Of course I can't let this opportunity pass:
Maybe J doesn't feel like they need to work on their customer
satisfaction problem, because the customers are already satisfied
just owning a J...not buying that? I didn't think so....)
Lynn,
Yeah, you're right. I dont' buy that :-) But I want to say thanks for giving
all of us a heads-up on the realities of owning and operating a Jabiru. Personally
I hope they can continue to improve their support, as there is definitely
a place for their engines in the light sport aircraft world. And frankly, I
think it is a nice engine. There aren't a lot of jabiru owners yet, but of the
ones I've heard from (like yourself) they are quite happy with their engines.
That says a lot for a relatively new product. And as Iv'e said before, I
like the simplicity of the Jab much more than all those hoses and such the 912
has.
One thing that has somewhat surprised me however about the Jab, is while the engine
is advertised to be much lighter than the 912, empty weights aren't necessarily
in agreement with that. As an example, my Model IV-1200 long wing was
originally 627 pounds empty (currently closer to 650 due to add ons) with my 912ul,
IVO inflight prop, electric engine heater, all plexiglass windshield, turtledeck
and bubble doors, full panel, carpet, heater core type cabin heat with
an electric fan, heavy 4 ply 8:00 X 6 aircraft tires, heavy paint, heavy plastic
strut fairings for wings and horizontal stab, electric trim, wingtip strobes,
landing and nav lights, dual brakes, 2 built in Gps's, solid baggage floor,
electronic dual tank senders with sender covers glassed into top of wing tanks,
etc, etc.
As I recall, your Jabiru 2200 model IV is a very similar weight? So how does it
compare option wise? Comparing our similar model IV Kitfoxes is the best way
to compare apples to apples for the group.
Paul Seehafer
Ps - here's a shot of my panel so you can compare it to yours for equipment
--------
Model IV-1200 912ul Amphib
Avid Flyer
Lake Amphibian
Central Wisconsin
paul676@tds.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157858#157858
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/pict0375_2_661.jpg
Message 26
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | [ Dee Young ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Dee Young <henrysfork1@msn.com>
Lists: Kitfox-List
Subject: Cooling Shroud for Kitfox
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/henrysfork1@msn.com.01.13.2008/index.html
----------------------------------------------------------
o Main Photo Share Index
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
o Submitting a Photo Share
If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the
following information along with your email message and files:
1) Email List or Lists that they are related to:
2) Your Full Name:
3) Your Email Address:
4) One line Subject description:
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic:
6) One-line Description of each photo or file:
Email the information above and your files and photos to:
pictures@matronics.com
----------------------------------------------------------
Message 27
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: float questions |
> I have a KF 3 with a 912 and GSC 3 blade wood prop. I bought a set of Aerocet
1100 amphib floats for it that have been on a mod 4 and I have a couple questions.
> Where can I get repair parts for the floats, and will my prop stand up to the
task. I was told that the spray will tear it up immediately.
I have made all my parsts for my Aerocet 1100s as needed.I am not sure there is
any around except the guy who bought the molds etc .......
GSC prop with black urethane leading edge will stand up to a little beating but
not alot. The wood prop will not last long nor with any prop without leading
edge protection. IVO with SS tape works good. and so does the WARP with nickel
leading edges. I sell all brands so let me know what you need.
PS - you could even destroy your prop just taxing around with water spray. Hey
-- I like to sell props but i rather not see a perfectly good one get destroyed.
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157863#157863
Message 28
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Jabiru Firewall forward - engine selection |
John how does the 3300 compare to the 912 ul 912 s and the 914 ?
Pricing and performance ?
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157864#157864
Message 29
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Engine Choices |
(Marco says "Ok guys. I've started the spreadsheet. Add to and improve it as you
can...")
Marco,
One thing that I would suggest changing is the column heading words for column
E. The current "Pwr & Wght" should be changed to "Hp per LB". Just words I know,
but I think it better exemplifies which engine is producing the most power
per lb, the thing that is probably the single most important thing to consider
when comparing engines, (aside from actual prop thrust - which as of right
now we don't have a good way to know).
The fuel burn for the 912 I know is not right. I'll pull my manuals next time
I'm at the airport so we can fix that. It also would be nice to add the 914 Rotax,
as that is hands down Rotaxes real power house.
Nice Job! Very nice spreadsheet for those deciding on an engine.
Paul Seehafer
--------
Model IV-1200 912ul Amphib
Avid Flyer
Lake Amphibian
Central Wisconsin
paul676@tds.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157865#157865
Message 30
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Engine Choices |
(Paul W says "A word of caution about the weights. I have been on this list since
day 1 and I still doubt the weights quoted. For example is the
coolant included and what about the...")
Paul,
I too don't agree with how the weights come out for all the engines as the mfrs
have stated them. In another topic area I just asked Lynn Matteson to compare
his Jabiru 2200 powered Model IV against my 912ul powered Model IV for empty
weights and options, as I seem to recall our airplanes are similar weights.
And if that's true, considering all the options I have on my airplane (its far
from a light one), the Jabiru is really no lighter by the time it is installed.
The same seems to be true of the aircraft engines as well, with the mfrs stating
weights that are a bit deceiving.
So the true test is for a bunch of us to post our empty weights for our various
powered Kitfoxes, and then to give details as to what options and models they
are so those making engine choices can make an educated decision based on facts.
Or at least averages.
What do you think?
Hey Marco! Are you interested in setting up a spreadsheet for that? :-)
Paul Seehafer
--------
Model IV-1200 912ul Amphib
Avid Flyer
Lake Amphibian
Central Wisconsin
paul676@tds.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157866#157866
Message 31
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: engine selection |
Paul-
Mine weighed 650 lbs at the weigh-in, and I've probably added another
20 with x-ponder, different radio, heat muffs, scat hose, etc. I'll
compare what my plane has and try to list what might be different. If
I skip an item, it means I have about the same thing.
Short wing, fixed-pitch prop, (no on-board engine heater), semi-full
panel, but mostly VFR, (no "weighty" heater other than heat muffs and
scat hose) wheel pants, same plastic strut fairings w/fabric and
paint, (no fairings on hort. stab), (no landing lights), one GPS,
baggage sack, (no electronic senders for fuel, just sight gauges). I
do have an airfoiled vertical stab and rudder, my own rib design and
rudder fairing...possibly heavy, and I have the 3-leaf tailwheel
spring, but with a Homebuilders Special (ACS) wheel. I just compared
my panel with yours, and they are nearly comparable. I have an EIS,
and you have more gauges, etc. I have the Grove gear.
As I write this, I can't help but think that the best way to compare
weights of these engines is to put the engines on the same scales and
get the apples and oranges out of the equation. After all, were your
aircraft scales and the ones that were used to weigh my plane the
same calibration?(mine were digital, rented from a local FBO repair
station) Hard to say, and as long as there is this competition among
engine suppliers, there will always be that little bit of commercial
"cheating" going on among the merchants.
I recall a Norman Rockwell painting that showed a butcher pushing
down on the scales, while the customer was pushing up? I'd like to
see a modern day drawing/picture of a Jabiru and a Rotax on the
balance scales, and see all the shenanigans that would go on behind
the scenes. : )
Seriously, I would like to see an honest weighing using all the stuff
that is needed to get the respective engines installed, i.e.,
mufflers, airducts, air boxes, starters, radiators, coolant, etc.
EVERYTHING that is required to make the engine run in the plane.
Why doesn't some enterprising magazine such as we subscribe to, do
this? Loss of advertising dollars from the losers is the probable
answer, but then, I'm a skeptic by nature. : )
Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/460+ hrs
On Jan 13, 2008, at 4:48 PM, av8rps wrote:
>
> ("Lynn Matteson says "Of course I can't let this opportunity pass:
> Maybe J doesn't feel like they need to work on their customer
> satisfaction problem, because the customers are already satisfied
> just owning a J...not buying that? I didn't think so....)
>
> Lynn,
>
> Yeah, you're right. I dont' buy that :-) But I want to say thanks
> for giving all of us a heads-up on the realities of owning and
> operating a Jabiru. Personally I hope they can continue to improve
> their support, as there is definitely a place for their engines in
> the light sport aircraft world. And frankly, I think it is a nice
> engine. There aren't a lot of jabiru owners yet, but of the ones
> I've heard from (like yourself) they are quite happy with their
> engines. That says a lot for a relatively new product. And as
> Iv'e said before, I like the simplicity of the Jab much more than
> all those hoses and such the 912 has.
>
>
> One thing that has somewhat surprised me however about the Jab, is
> while the engine is advertised to be much lighter than the 912,
> empty weights aren't necessarily in agreement with that. As an
> example, my Model IV-1200 long wing was originally 627 pounds empty
> (currently closer to 650 due to add ons) with my 912ul, IVO
> inflight prop, electric engine heater, all plexiglass windshield,
> turtledeck and bubble doors, full panel, carpet, heater core type
> cabin heat with an electric fan, heavy 4 ply 8:00 X 6 aircraft
> tires, heavy paint, heavy plastic strut fairings for wings and
> horizontal stab, electric trim, wingtip strobes, landing and nav
> lights, dual brakes, 2 built in Gps's, solid baggage floor,
> electronic dual tank senders with sender covers glassed into top of
> wing tanks, etc, etc.
>
> As I recall, your Jabiru 2200 model IV is a very similar weight? So
> how does it compare option wise? Comparing our similar model IV
> Kitfoxes is the best way to compare apples to apples for the group.
>
> Paul Seehafer
>
> Ps - here's a shot of my panel so you can compare it to yours for
> equipment
>
> --------
> Model IV-1200 912ul Amphib
> Avid Flyer
> Lake Amphibian
> Central Wisconsin
> paul676@tds.net
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157858#157858
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/pict0375_2_661.jpg
>
>
Message 32
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Performance specifications |
I am looking at purchasing a partly finished kitfox kit and would like to
know the performance specs and other information of the various models. Can
someone help me with the information?
Keith Jeffs
Spitfire Services
4 Balaclava St Newington Vic 3350
Ph/Fax 03 53314029
Mob 0438508576
Message 33
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Engine Choices |
The best weight data will come from a guy that does a swap and then
weighs the plane before & after.
However the KFs seem to fly fine with all the choices, so maybe the
numbers are not as important as we all make them??? Perfection is
hard to achieve. But it would be nice to get close.
I remember in the old days when Murle W did a R912 swap to sube and
gave us real data.
Paul W
===========
At 02:34 PM 1/13/2008, you wrote:
>
>(Paul W says "A word of caution about the weights. I have been on
>this list since day 1 and I still doubt the weights quoted. For example is the
>coolant included and what about the...")
>
>Paul,
>
>I too don't agree with how the weights come out for all the engines
>as the mfrs have stated them. In another topic area I just asked
>Lynn Matteson to compare his Jabiru 2200 powered Model IV against my
>912ul powered Model IV for empty weights and options, as I seem to
>recall our airplanes are similar weights. And if that's true,
>considering all the options I have on my airplane (its far from a
>light one), the Jabiru is really no lighter by the time it is installed.
>
>The same seems to be true of the aircraft engines as well, with the
>mfrs stating weights that are a bit deceiving.
>
>
>So the true test is for a bunch of us to post our empty weights for
>our various powered Kitfoxes, and then to give details as to what
>options and models they are so those making engine choices can make
>an educated decision based on facts. Or at least averages.
>
>What do you think?
>
>Hey Marco! Are you interested in setting up a spreadsheet for that? :-)
>
>Paul Seehafer
>
>--------
>Model IV-1200 912ul Amphib
>Avid Flyer
>Lake Amphibian
>Central Wisconsin
>paul676@tds.net
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157866#157866
>
>
Message 34
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Engine Choices |
At the risk of becoming annoying (I know, I've already passed that
milestone), forget the airplanes! Weigh the freakin' engines!
Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/460+ hrs
On Jan 13, 2008, at 6:19 PM, paul wilson wrote:
>
> The best weight data will come from a guy that does a swap and then
> weighs the plane before & after.
> However the KFs seem to fly fine with all the choices, so maybe
> the numbers are not as important as we all make them??? Perfection
> is hard to achieve. But it would be nice to get close.
> I remember in the old days when Murle W did a R912 swap to sube and
> gave us real data.
> Paul W
Message 35
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Engine Choices |
I'l repeat here what I said on another post..paraphrased...you can't
compare one empty Kitfox with another and blame the difference on the
engine. If you're going to compare weights, compare weights, not
calculated weights based on equipment, paint jobs, etc. No jury would
buy that argument. We need to get that anal bunch from NASCAR to send
some of their boys over to settle this one, I'm afraid.
Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/460+ hrs
On Jan 13, 2008, at 5:34 PM, av8rps wrote:
>
> (Paul W says "A word of caution about the weights. I have been on
> this list since day 1 and I still doubt the weights quoted. For
> example is the
> coolant included and what about the...")
>
> Paul,
>
> I too don't agree with how the weights come out for all the engines
> as the mfrs have stated them. In another topic area I just asked
> Lynn Matteson to compare his Jabiru 2200 powered Model IV against
> my 912ul powered Model IV for empty weights and options, as I seem
> to recall our airplanes are similar weights. And if that's true,
> considering all the options I have on my airplane (its far from a
> light one), the Jabiru is really no lighter by the time it is
> installed.
>
> The same seems to be true of the aircraft engines as well, with the
> mfrs stating weights that are a bit deceiving.
>
>
> So the true test is for a bunch of us to post our empty weights for
> our various powered Kitfoxes, and then to give details as to what
> options and models they are so those making engine choices can make
> an educated decision based on facts. Or at least averages.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Hey Marco! Are you interested in setting up a spreadsheet for
> that? :-)
>
> Paul Seehafer
>
> --------
> Model IV-1200 912ul Amphib
> Avid Flyer
> Lake Amphibian
> Central Wisconsin
> paul676@tds.net
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157866#157866
>
>
Message 36
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Maximum Miles Per Gallon in a Kitfox? |
[quote="wingnut"]Very interesting. How are you measuring your fuel burn? Makes
me wonder what one of those slippery motor gliders would produce.
As I said before, my method wasn't all that scientific. Not having an electronic
fuel monitoring system I had to rely on my tachometer, my manifold pressure
guage, and my Rotax engine manuals fuel burn chart. While not as nice as electronic
measuring, based on previous experiences traveling cross country over
the years, I've found it pretty accurate.
Dave, my fittings aren't loose any more :-) (Whew!) But my floats are nice and
shiny yet...(chuckle) And yes, I agree the aerocets are not very draggy floats.
But...drag is drag. And add to the float drag the additional induced drag
created by the need for increased wing angle of attack due to the 150 lbs
the floats add, and I'm sure it is not doing anything to help my fuel efficiency.
Of course to know for sure I'd have to just once try a regular landing gear
on my Fox (hmmm.... where did I put those landing gears and wheels????)
Paul Seehafer
--------
Model IV-1200 912ul Amphib
Avid Flyer
Lake Amphibian
Central Wisconsin
paul676@tds.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157877#157877
Message 37
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: engine selection |
(Lynn Matteson wrote "]Paul- Mine weighed 650 lbs at the weigh-in, and I've probably
added another 20 with x-ponder, different radio, heat muffs, scat hose,
etc....)
Lynn,
This is interesting information. Looks like our Model IV kitfoxes are a lot the
same, even though they vary by options. We each have things that are heavier
than the others plane, but also have things that are lighter. So all in all
it seems to pretty well balance out. Not scientific, but generally it goes to
prove there isn't a substantial difference between the Jab and the Rotax by
the time the airplane is done
I weighed my plane three times, twice on wheels, and once when when putting it
on the floats. I only used electronic scales when doing the float W&B, but the
numbers jived pretty well with what the other scales told us. So I believe
my numbers are relatively accurate. My empty weight numbers also are pretty average
when comparing to other 912 Model IV's, which run between 625 and 675 lbs
typically.
I agree weighing engines as you described would be best. But really, average numbers
for the various models will give the group here a good feel for what they
can expect for average weights.
I've learned a long time ago that even though the specs say one thing, by the time
you get the airplane done, it can be all different. A good example of that
is my buddy that built an Avid Mark IV with a 618 rotax a few years back. After
flying it a couple of years he replaced the 618 with a 912 ul, and his net
empty weight gain was only 12 pounds. We all tried to figure out how that could
be, but in the end gave up trying to figure out how that was possible. He's
too busy flying the airplane now to worry about it. But it still mystifies
all of us, including him.
I hope the group can further this study of various models with various engine weights.
That could be really useful information for any of us.
Paul Seehafer
--------
Model IV-1200 912ul Amphib
Avid Flyer
Lake Amphibian
Central Wisconsin
paul676@tds.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157880#157880
Message 38
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: (Stewarts system) How much paint needed? |
Call Marjie Stewart at Stewart Systems in Cashmere, Wa. Their 800 number is
on their web site. Spend $12 and get their manual that comes with cds that
take you through every step. Very informative. I wouldn't use anything else. Don
KF+/subie
In a message dated 1/13/2008 2:33:35 P.M. Central Standard Time,
mykitfox@verizon.net writes:
I cannot use Poly system because of allergic reaction to the chemicals, so
my options are limited. I am ready to cover my Kitfox 7 with the Dacron
frabric, I already have, and was hoping someone with a 5,6, or 7 have tried the
system. How much Glue, filler and paint is needed and any other I need to know
items?
Thanks
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
Message 39
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | RE: Wanted Douglas Wheel(s) |
I am interested in acquiring one or two Douglas wheels for my model IV
Kitfox. These wheels have three lug holes and brake disc mounting tabs that
Kitfox had specially welded on to the basic Douglas wheels at that time
(around 1992) (The tire size is 8.00 x 7 x 20 if that is useful)
Bob Jones
443-480-1023
bjones@dmv.com
N154K
N626NR
Do not archive
Message 40
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: engine selection |
In keeping my final engine decision open until I absolutely need to make it,
I found this spreadsheet very interesting to see all values on a single
page. I took the liberty of massaging it a bit into a format I am liking. All
of you guys who have info for the blanks yet to be filled, please spit your
numbers out.
John P. Marzluf (John Z.)
Columbus, Ohio
Series V Outback (Out Back In The Garage)
20% Complete, Not Currently Building
Do Not Archive
In a message dated 1/13/2008 6:17:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
lynnmatt@jps.net writes:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Paul-
Mine weighed 650 lbs at the weigh-in, and I've probably added another
20 with x-ponder, different radio, heat muffs, scat hose, etc. I'll
compare what my plane has and try to list what might be different. If
I skip an item, it means I have about the same thing.
Short wing, fixed-pitch prop, (no on-board engine heater), semi-full
panel, but mostly VFR, (no "weighty" heater other than heat muffs and
scat hose) wheel pants, same plastic strut fairings w/fabric and
paint, (no fairings on hort. stab), (no landing lights), one GPS,
baggage sack, (no electronic senders for fuel, just sight gauges). I
do have an airfoiled vertical stab and rudder, my own rib design and
rudder fairing...possibly heavy, and I have the 3-leaf tailwheel
spring, but with a Homebuilders Special (ACS) wheel. I just compared
my panel with yours, and they are nearly comparable. I have an EIS,
and you have more gauges, etc. I have the Grove gear.
As I write this, I can't help but think that the best way to compare
weights of these engines is to put the engines on the same scales and
get the apples and oranges out of the equation. After all, were your
aircraft scales and the ones that were used to weigh my plane the
same calibration?(mine were digital, rented from a local FBO repair
station) Hard to say, and as long as there is this competition among
engine suppliers, there will always be that little bit of commercial
"cheating" going on among the merchants.
I recall a Norman Rockwell painting that showed a butcher pushing
down on the scales, while the customer was pushing up? I'd like to
see a modern day drawing/picture of a Jabiru and a Rotax on the
balance scales, and see all the shenanigans that would go on behind
the scenes. : )
Seriously, I would like to see an honest weighing using all the stuff
that is needed to get the respective engines installed, i.e.,
mufflers, airducts, air boxes, starters, radiators, coolant, etc.
EVERYTHING that is required to make the engine run in the plane.
Why doesn't some enterprising magazine such as we subscribe to, do
this? Loss of advertising dollars from the losers is the probable
answer, but then, I'm a skeptic by nature. : )
Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/460+ hrs
On Jan 13, 2008, at 4:48 PM, av8rps wrote:
>
> ("Lynn Matteson says "Of course I can't let this opportunity pass:
> Maybe J doesn't feel like they need to work on their customer
> satisfaction problem, because the customers are already satisfied
> just owning a J...not buying that? I didn't think so....)
>
> Lynn,
>
> Yeah, you're right. I dont' buy that :-) But I want to say thanks
> for giving all of us a heads-up on the realities of owning and
> operating a Jabiru. Personally I hope they can continue to improve
> their support, as there is definitely a place for their engines in
> the light sport aircraft world. And frankly, I think it is a nice
> engine. There aren't a lot of jabiru owners yet, but of the ones
> I've heard from (like yourself) they are quite happy with their
> engines. That says a lot for a relatively new product. And as
> Iv'e said before, I like the simplicity of the Jab much more than
> all those hoses and such the 912 has.
>
>
> One thing that has somewhat surprised me however about the Jab, is
> while the engine is advertised to be much lighter than the 912,
> empty weights aren't necessarily in agreement with that. As an
> example, my Model IV-1200 long wing was originally 627 pounds empty
> (currently closer to 650 due to add ons) with my 912ul, IVO
> inflight prop, electric engine heater, all plexiglass windshield,
> turtledeck and bubble doors, full panel, carpet, heater core type
> cabin heat with an electric fan, heavy 4 ply 8:00 X 6 aircraft
> tires, heavy paint, heavy plastic strut fairings for wings and
> horizontal stab, electric trim, wingtip strobes, landing and nav
> lights, dual brakes, 2 built in Gps's, solid baggage floor,
> electronic dual tank senders with sender covers glassed into top of
> wing tanks, etc, etc.
>
> As I recall, your Jabiru 2200 model IV is a very similar weight? So
> how does it compare option wise? Comparing our similar model IV
> Kitfoxes is the best way to compare apples to apples for the group.
>
> Paul Seehafer
>
> Ps - here's a shot of my panel so you can compare it to yours for
> equipment
>
> --------
> Model IV-1200 912ul Amphib
> Avid Flyer
> Lake Amphibian
> Central Wisconsin
> paul676@tds.net
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157858#157858
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/pict0375_2_661.jpg
>
>
**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
Message 41
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: engine selection |
This sounds like the groundwork for an interesting magazine
article...one that would help a lot of folks make the decision as to
engine selection. The only true and honest way to do it would be to
actually have access to the engines in question. Why this hasn't been
done is beyond me...or has it? There must have, by now, been done a
survey of all the available engines that are appropriate for the
homebuilders needs? If not, why not? Sounds like an article that
should be written by Kitplanes to me....maybe a joint venture between
Kitplanes, Sport Pilot, Sport Aviation...others? Maybe that's not a
good idea either. But there could be an impartial weighing at a
central site....hey....how about Oshkosh this year? It's supposed to
be about "experimental aviation" isn't it? Well, here's a perfect
format for something that is really in the homebuilders' minds.
Oshkosh has long been going to "showtime" and forgetting the little
guy who was the reason behind it all. Why not a forum at Oshkosh
where the engine suppliers bring their engines in and get them
weighed. Wait a minute, I'm way ahead of you...AFTER the
weighing....the engine would have to be started and run for a to-be-
determined length of time...maybe even flown in a plane by the guy
who is standing behind that engine. That would eliminate the empty
blocks, the featherweight crankshafts, etc. And make it a claiming
competition, where the engine would have to be sold at the going
price, so no super-light mods would be made that would be
prohibitively costly to the supplier.
This may be a radical thought, or series of thoughts, but I believe
along these lines there is some merit. There is an engine-builders
competition that has been shown on Speed Channel, where NASCAR engine
builders assemble an engine, racing against the clock and another
team, to see who can get an engine together the fastest, make it run
for a couple of minutes, and then have all the torques checked to be
sure somebody didn't just spin a nut on and call it "done."
Maybe we could have a forum where individuals could bring in their
planes, pull the engine, and weigh it. Impartial judges could be on
hand, and certified scales, and the results made available by the
weeks end. Hell, I'd be willing to pull my engine right then and
there for a weighing, then reinstall it and go fly it. Participants
could be given some sort of "badge of courage" for their efforts,
like the mug they give for participation in the Homebuilder's Review.
By Jove, I do believe I'm on to something here!
The previous writing is copywrited by Lynn C. Matteson, author, and
in no way shall the ideas contained herein be stolen, used, copied or
otherwise "ripped off" without due compensation. : )
Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/460+ hrs
On Jan 13, 2008, at 7:26 PM, av8rps wrote:
>
> (Lynn Matteson wrote "]Paul- Mine weighed 650 lbs at the weigh-in,
> and I've probably added another 20 with x-ponder, different radio,
> heat muffs, scat hose, etc....)
>
> Lynn,
>
> This is interesting information. Looks like our Model IV kitfoxes
> are a lot the same, even though they vary by options. We each have
> things that are heavier than the others plane, but also have things
> that are lighter. So all in all it seems to pretty well balance
> out. Not scientific, but generally it goes to prove there isn't a
> substantial difference between the Jab and the Rotax by the time
> the airplane is done
>
> I weighed my plane three times, twice on wheels, and once when when
> putting it on the floats. I only used electronic scales when doing
> the float W&B, but the numbers jived pretty well with what the
> other scales told us. So I believe my numbers are relatively
> accurate. My empty weight numbers also are pretty average when
> comparing to other 912 Model IV's, which run between 625 and 675
> lbs typically.
>
> I agree weighing engines as you described would be best. But
> really, average numbers for the various models will give the group
> here a good feel for what they can expect for average weights.
>
> I've learned a long time ago that even though the specs say one
> thing, by the time you get the airplane done, it can be all
> different. A good example of that is my buddy that built an Avid
> Mark IV with a 618 rotax a few years back. After flying it a
> couple of years he replaced the 618 with a 912 ul, and his net
> empty weight gain was only 12 pounds. We all tried to figure out
> how that could be, but in the end gave up trying to figure out how
> that was possible. He's too busy flying the airplane now to worry
> about it. But it still mystifies all of us, including him.
>
> I hope the group can further this study of various models with
> various engine weights. That could be really useful information
> for any of us.
>
> Paul Seehafer
>
> --------
> Model IV-1200 912ul Amphib
> Avid Flyer
> Lake Amphibian
> Central Wisconsin
> paul676@tds.net
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157880#157880
>
>
Message 42
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Douglas Wheel(s) and tires |
I am interested in locating a set of the shaved 8" ATV tires that might
be laying around a hanger. Let me know if you have one or two of them,
thanks.
Dee Young
Model II
N345DY
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Jones<mailto:bjones@dmv.com>
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com<mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 5:19 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: RE: Wanted Douglas Wheel(s)
<bjones@dmv.com<mailto:bjones@dmv.com>>
I am interested in acquiring one or two Douglas wheels for my model IV
Kitfox. These wheels have three lug holes and brake disc mounting tabs
that
Kitfox had specially welded on to the basic Douglas wheels at that
time
(around 1992) (The tire size is 8.00 x 7 x 20 if that is useful)
Bob Jones
443-480-1023
bjones@dmv.com<mailto:bjones@dmv.com>
N154K
N626NR
Do not archive
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List<http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?Kitfox-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
Message 43
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Cleaning Seat Covers |
Gents,
My seat upholstery is the yellow and red from SkyStar, and as it was getting pretty
grimy, particularly the yellow part, I brought it in few weeks ago and turned
it over to the cleaning expert around here, my wife. I believe all I said
was, could you work on cleaning this dear, I dont think it can be put in the
wash machine, because of the backing and left it in her expert hands.
about 2 days later she brought it to me looking better than new.
I said thank you very much dear, it looks fantastic, which it does. How did you
do it?
"Oh it I just put it thru the washing machine on the delicate cycle," she replied
I gulped and said "Your kidding!" and immediatelyy began an inspection on the
backing, which is perfect shape. She said " No I am not, I rubbed the worst spots
with a little spray n wash and scrubbed some liquid detergent in a few spots,
and washed it, and hung it to air dry"
Looks great men...and the backing is perfect.
--------
Don G.
Central Illinois
Kitfox IV Speedster
Luscombe 8A
http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157912#157912
Message 44
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Cleaning Seat Covers |
Ahh, I think it was a fluke.... How's about I send mine, (postage due) she
repeats the process, sends 'em back postage paid.... and I'll post the
results.
Sounds like a winner to me. :- )
Steve
84KF
Message 45
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Engine Choices |
The data I've included is derived from supplier and manufacturer websites. (Sources
are included as "comments"). But if anybody wants to correct or supplement
based on their experience, or add still more engine options, great! Please
have at it.
Hey . . . my plan was just to get the ball rolling. I'm not gonna do all the
work. :-)
av8rps <paul676@tds.net> wrote:
(Marco says "Ok guys. I've started the spreadsheet. Add to and improve it as you
can...")
Marco,
One thing that I would suggest changing is the column heading words for column
E. The current "Pwr & Wght" should be changed to "Hp per LB". Just words I know,
but I think it better exemplifies which engine is producing the most power
per lb, the thing that is probably the single most important thing to consider
when comparing engines, (aside from actual prop thrust - which as of right now
we don't have a good way to know).
The fuel burn for the 912 I know is not right. I'll pull my manuals next time I'm
at the airport so we can fix that. It also would be nice to add the 914 Rotax,
as that is hands down Rotaxes real power house.
Nice Job! Very nice spreadsheet for those deciding on an engine.
Paul Seehafer
--------
Model IV-1200 912ul Amphib
Avid Flyer
Lake Amphibian
Central Wisconsin
paul676@tds.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157865#157865
Marco Menezes
Model 2 582 N99KX
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
Message 46
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Engine Choices |
Like I said Paul, if you think that would be useful, please have at it! Just add
a few columns and fill them in.
(Paul W says "A word of caution about the weights. I have been on this list since
day 1 and I still doubt the weights quoted. For example is the
coolant included and what about the...")
Paul,
I too don't agree with how the weights come out for all the engines as the mfrs
have stated them. In another topic area I just asked Lynn Matteson to compare
his Jabiru 2200 powered Model IV against my 912ul powered Model IV for empty
weights and options, as I seem to recall our airplanes are similar weights. And
if that's true, considering all the options I have on my airplane (its far from
a light one), the Jabiru is really no lighter by the time it is installed.
The same seems to be true of the aircraft engines as well, with the mfrs stating
weights that are a bit deceiving.
So the true test is for a bunch of us to post our empty weights for our various
powered Kitfoxes, and then to give details as to what options and models they
are so those making engine choices can make an educated decision based on facts.
Or at least averages.
What do you think?
Hey Marco! Are you interested in setting up a spreadsheet for that? :-)
Paul Seehafer
--------
Model IV-1200 912ul Amphib
Avid Flyer
Lake Amphibian
Central Wisconsin
paul676@tds.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157866#157866
Marco Menezes
Model 2 582 N99KX
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
Message 47
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: engine selection |
Thank you John. (Whew)
do not archive
KITFOXZ@aol.com wrote:
In keeping my final engine decision open until I absolutely need to make
it, I found this spreadsheet very interesting to see all values on a single page.
I took the liberty of massaging it a bit into a format I am liking. All
of you guys who have info for the blanks yet to be filled, please spit your numbers
out.
John P. Marzluf (John Z.)
Columbus, Ohio
Series V Outback (Out Back In The Garage)
20% Complete, Not Currently Building
Do Not Archive
In a message dated 1/13/2008 6:17:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, lynnmatt@jps.net
writes:
Paul-
Mine weighed 650 lbs at the weigh-in, and I've probably added another
20 with x-ponder, different radio, heat muffs, scat hose, etc. I'll
compare what my plane has and try to list what might be different. If
I skip an item, it means I have about the same thing.
Short wing, fixed-pitch prop, (no on-board engine heater), semi-full
panel, but mostly VFR, (no "weighty" heater other than heat muffs and
scat hose) wheel pants, same plastic strut fairings w/fabric and
paint, (no fairings on hort. stab), (no landing lights), one GPS,
baggage sack, (no electronic senders for fuel, just sight gauges). I
do have an airfoiled vertical stab and rudder, my own rib design and
rudder fairing...possibly heavy, and I have the 3-leaf tailwheel
spring, but with a Homebuilders Special (ACS) wheel. I just compared
my panel with yours, and they are nearly comparable. I have an EIS,
and you have more gauges, etc. I have the Grove gear.
As I write this, I can't help but think that the best way to compare
weights of these engines is to put the engines on the same scales and
get the apples and oranges out of the equation. After all, were your
aircraft scales and the ones that were used to weigh my plane the
same calibration?(mine were digital, rented from a local FBO repair
station) Hard to say, and as long as there is this competition among
engine suppliers, there will always be that little bit of commercial
"cheating" going on among the merchants.
I recall a Norman Rockwell painting that showed a butcher pushing
down on the scales, while the customer was pushing up? I'd like to
see a modern day drawing/picture of a Jabiru and a Rotax on the
balance scales, and see all the shenanigans that would go on behind
the scenes. : )
Seriously, I would like to see an honest weighing using all the stuff
that is needed to get the respective engines installed, i.e.,
mufflers, airducts, air boxes, starters, radiators, coolant, etc.
EVERYTHING that is required to make the engine run in the plane.
Why doesn't some enterprising magazine such as we subscribe to, do
this? Loss of advertising dollars from the losers is the probable
answer, but then, I'm a skeptic by nature. : )
Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/460+ hrs
On Jan 13, 2008, at 4:48 PM, av8rps wrote:
>
> ("Lynn Matteson says "Of course I can't let this opportunity pass:
> Maybe J doesn't feel like they need to work on their customer
> satisfaction problem, because the customers are already satisfied
> just owning a J...not buying that? I didn't think so....)
>
> Lynn,
>
> Yeah, you're right. I dont' buy that :-) But I want to say thanks
> for giving all of us a heads-up on the realities of owning and
> operating a Jabiru. Personally I hope they can continue to improve
> their support, as there is definitely a place for their engines in
> the light sport aircraft world. And frankly, I think it is a nice
> engine. There aren't a lot of jabiru owners yet, but of the ones
> I've heard from (like yourself) they are quite happy with their
> engines. That says a lot for a relatively new product. And as
> Iv'e said before, I like the simplicity of the Jab much more than
> all those hoses and such the 912 has.
>
>
> One thing that has somewhat surprised me however about the Jab, is
> while the engine is advertised to be much lighter than the 912,
> empty weights aren't necessarily in agreement with that. As an
> example, my Model IV-1200 long wing was originally 627 pounds empty
> (currently closer to 650 due to add ons) with my 912ul, IVO
> inflight prop, electric engine heater, all plexiglass windshield,
> turtledeck and bubble doors, full panel, carpet, heater core type
> cabin heat with an electric fan, heavy 4 ply 8:00 X 6 aircraft
> tires, heavy paint, heavy plastic strut fairings for wings and
> horizontal stab, electric trim, wingtip strobes, landing and nav
> lights, dual brakes, 2 built in Gps's, solid baggage floor,
> electronic dual tank senders with sender covers glassed into top of
> wing tanks, etc, etc.
>
> As I recall, your Jabiru 2200 model IV is a very similar weight? So
> how does it compare option wise? Comparing our similar model IV
> Kitfoxes is the best way to compare apples to apples for the group.
>
> Paul Seehafer
>
> Ps - here's a shot of my panel so you can compare it to yours for
> equipment
>
> --------
> Model IV-1200 912ul Amphib
> Avid Flyer
> Lake Amphibian
> Central Wisconsin
> paul676@tds.net
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157858#157858
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/pict0375_2_661.jpg
>
>
&he es y --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS nbsp; - List Contribution
Web Site ; ========================
---------------------------------
Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.
Marco Menezes
Model 2 582 N99KX
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
Message 48
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: engine selection |
Great idea Lynn. I know just the guy to write the article. Verrry experienced.
;-)
do not archive
Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net> wrote:
This sounds like the groundwork for an interesting magazine
article...one that would help a lot of folks make the decision as to
engine selection. The only true and honest way to do it would be to
actually have access to the engines in question. Why this hasn't been
done is beyond me...or has it? There must have, by now, been done a
survey of all the available engines that are appropriate for the
homebuilders needs? If not, why not? Sounds like an article that
should be written by Kitplanes to me....maybe a joint venture between
Kitplanes, Sport Pilot, Sport Aviation...others? Maybe that's not a
good idea either. But there could be an impartial weighing at a
central site....hey....how about Oshkosh this year? It's supposed to
be about "experimental aviation" isn't it? Well, here's a perfect
format for something that is really in the homebuilders' minds.
Oshkosh has long been going to "showtime" and forgetting the little
guy who was the reason behind it all. Why not a forum at Oshkosh
where the engine suppliers bring their engines in and get them
weighed. Wait a minute, I'm way ahead of you...AFTER the
weighing....the engine would have to be started and run for a to-be-
determined length of time...maybe even flown in a plane by the guy
who is standing behind that engine. That would eliminate the empty
blocks, the featherweight crankshafts, etc. And make it a claiming
competition, where the engine would have to be sold at the going
price, so no super-light mods would be made that would be
prohibitively costly to the supplier.
This may be a radical thought, or series of thoughts, but I believe
along these lines there is some merit. There is an engine-builders
competition that has been shown on Speed Channel, where NASCAR engine
builders assemble an engine, racing against the clock and another
team, to see who can get an engine together the fastest, make it run
for a couple of minutes, and then have all the torques checked to be
sure somebody didn't just spin a nut on and call it "done."
Maybe we could have a forum where individuals could bring in their
planes, pull the engine, and weigh it. Impartial judges could be on
hand, and certified scales, and the results made available by the
weeks end. Hell, I'd be willing to pull my engine right then and
there for a weighing, then reinstall it and go fly it. Participants
could be given some sort of "badge of courage" for their efforts,
like the mug they give for participation in the Homebuilder's Review.
By Jove, I do believe I'm on to something here!
The previous writing is copywrited by Lynn C. Matteson, author, and
in no way shall the ideas contained herein be stolen, used, copied or
otherwise "ripped off" without due compensation. : )
Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/460+ hrs
On Jan 13, 2008, at 7:26 PM, av8rps wrote:
>
> (Lynn Matteson wrote "]Paul- Mine weighed 650 lbs at the weigh-in,
> and I've probably added another 20 with x-ponder, different radio,
> heat muffs, scat hose, etc....)
>
> Lynn,
>
> This is interesting information. Looks like our Model IV kitfoxes
> are a lot the same, even though they vary by options. We each have
> things that are heavier than the others plane, but also have things
> that are lighter. So all in all it seems to pretty well balance
> out. Not scientific, but generally it goes to prove there isn't a
> substantial difference between the Jab and the Rotax by the time
> the airplane is done
>
> I weighed my plane three times, twice on wheels, and once when when
> putting it on the floats. I only used electronic scales when doing
> the float W&B, but the numbers jived pretty well with what the
> other scales told us. So I believe my numbers are relatively
> accurate. My empty weight numbers also are pretty average when
> comparing to other 912 Model IV's, which run between 625 and 675
> lbs typically.
>
> I agree weighing engines as you described would be best. But
> really, average numbers for the various models will give the group
> here a good feel for what they can expect for average weights.
>
> I've learned a long time ago that even though the specs say one
> thing, by the time you get the airplane done, it can be all
> different. A good example of that is my buddy that built an Avid
> Mark IV with a 618 rotax a few years back. After flying it a
> couple of years he replaced the 618 with a 912 ul, and his net
> empty weight gain was only 12 pounds. We all tried to figure out
> how that could be, but in the end gave up trying to figure out how
> that was possible. He's too busy flying the airplane now to worry
> about it. But it still mystifies all of us, including him.
>
> I hope the group can further this study of various models with
> various engine weights. That could be really useful information
> for any of us.
>
> Paul Seehafer
>
> --------
> Model IV-1200 912ul Amphib
> Avid Flyer
> Lake Amphibian
> Central Wisconsin
> paul676@tds.net
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157880#157880
>
>
Marco Menezes
Model 2 582 N99KX
---------------------------------
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|