Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:56 AM - Re: Re: RK400 clutch 582 application (JohnW. Hart)
2. 06:32 AM - Re: Completed Kitfoxes (Tom Jones)
3. 06:40 AM - Re: propeller slip clutch (LarryM)
4. 06:44 AM - Re: RK400 clutch 582 application (Tom Jones)
5. 07:18 AM - Re: Info found on HVLP gun setup! (n85ae)
6. 07:49 AM - Re: Panel layout - was Completed Kitfoxes (Marco Menezes)
7. 08:05 AM - Re: Re: Re: RK400 clutch 582 application (Guy Buchanan)
8. 11:50 AM - Re: Re: propeller slip clutch (Chenoweth)
9. 02:23 PM - Re: RK400 clutch 582 application (John Alexander)
10. 04:15 PM - Re: Re: Completed Kitfoxes (kirk hull)
11. 05:44 PM - Re: Re: Completed Kitfoxes (Steve Shinabery)
12. 06:12 PM - Completed Kitfoxes (dpremgood@aim.com)
13. 06:13 PM - Completed Kitfoxes (dpremgood@aim.com)
14. 06:45 PM - capacitance fuel probes (John Alexander)
15. 07:05 PM - Re: propeller slip clutch (dave)
16. 07:09 PM - Re: Re: RK400 clutch 582 application (Guy Buchanan)
17. 07:26 PM - Re: Completed Kitfoxes (patrick reilly)
18. 07:35 PM - Re: Re: RK400 clutch 582 application (John Alexander)
19. 07:38 PM - Re: Completed Kitfoxes (John Alexander)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: RK400 clutch 582 application |
An opinion: It appears to me that the gearbox with a Sprague (or
overrunning) clutch which is found in helicopters, on an engine drivetrain
would be MUCH less drag in a dead engine situation than would a direct drive
prop. A dead direct drive engine will windmill at normal glide speeds so
long as the internal components of the engine are intact (speaking from
experience). In order to stop a fixed pitch direct drive prop, the aircraft
must be slowed well below best glide speed. A controllable pitch prop, such
as found on most multiengine planes, can be set to feather, which will cause
it not windmill.
In twin-engine engine out operations, the primary things to do after
identifying which side has a dead engine is to maintain airspeed above VMC,
apply full throttle to the good engine, clean up drag which is gear, flaps
and feather the bad engine prop. Quite a few twin engine airplanes will not
climb at maximum gross takeoff weight until the bad engine's prop is
feathered. The drag induced by a windmilling prop from the compression,
friction, and load of the accessories impose on a direct drive engine is FAR
greater than a freewheeling prop.
As for the "rotor brake" idea, it would work to stop a windmilling,
non-feathering prop, but I think the blades would then impose more drag than
they would if windmilling. The effect would be similar to sticking a 2" X
4" with the 4" side vertical out either side of the cockpit the distance of
the prop blade length. The only advantage I could see is that stopping the
prop may help prevent damage to the prop itself in the event of gear failure
during landing.
John Hart
Model IV N44CN
Oklahoma
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of 84KF
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 11:17 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: RK400 clutch 582 application
"...you cant stop the prop from wind milling in the case of an engine
out,..."
Leni,
Would it be possible to fabricate something like a simple helicopter style
"rotor brake" for just such an occasion?
Has it been done before?
or...Is it a totally stupid idea?
Just thinking out loud here.....
Steve
84KF
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Completed Kitfoxes |
> For those of us looking to build, I would love to see a section devoted to completed
kits and panels, more than just the few Kitfox has on their site. This
would provide inspiration and motivation to get/keep us going.
There is some very nice work progressing on those foxes. Here's a panel picture
from the other end of the spectrum...just for a little balance for the basic
folks.
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV, Phase one
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=162510#162510
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/panel_120.jpg
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| Subject: | Re: propeller slip clutch |
Bill.
I wonder why you need to change so much with the season? We go from a density
altitude of about minus 1500' to plus 3000'. I only have to change the clip
position, and I'm trying for a better summer idle. I have a fixed pitch prop.
It's funny how they idle better at 20F than at the summer temps. That leads
me to believe that it is too rich in the summer. Perhaps the #40 is too small
and can be adjusted by the mixture screws?
larry
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=162511#162511
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| Subject: | Re: RK400 clutch 582 application |
> The drag induced by a windmilling prop from the compression, friction, and load
of the accessories impose on a direct drive engine is FAR greater than a freewheeling
prop.
>
> As for the rotor brake idea, it would work to stop a windmilling, non-feathering
prop, but I think the blades would then impose more drag than they would if
windmilling.
Actually it is just the opposite. A freewheeling prop produces much more drag
than a stopped prop or one windmilling at reduced engine speed.
With the gearbox clutch, if the engine stops and the prop freewheels, your options
for landing areas is greatly reduced. It would be good for the pilot to know
how much drag the freewheeling prop produces and know what to expect when
it happens.
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV, Phase one
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=162512#162512
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Info found on HVLP gun setup! |
Looks like the one I have. I have used it to paint with System Three
WR-LPU (waterborne polyurethane), WR-155 (waterborne epoxy primer).
It works fine. The "Hvlp" is a real misnomer, as it is still just a gravity
feed paint gun. It is a decent gun. Take it apart and deburr mechanics
and it will do the job.
I like Aerothane better than the waterborne paint, but I like my health
even more. The waterborne system three I mentioned is for hard
surfaces so don't use it for fabric. I think there are some waterborne
paints with a flex additive. Waterborne paint is tough to paint as it
is prone to as I call it foaming. Where the air from the spray gun
gets into the paint, and the surface cures before the bubbles can
flow out. This is better painted with a true HVLP paint gun, but can be
done if you practice a lot with a conventional gun. None the less water
borne paints can be frustrating.
Another option is rolling and tipping. Go to the KC Dawn Patrol website
and look at how they do it. This is great option for fabric I think. A lot
of people scoff at the idea of rolling on paint, but I've looked at a lot
of boats, guitars, furniture, etc that were done this way and you can
get just as good a finish this way if you learn the techniques.
Regards,
Jeff.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=162516#162516
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| Subject: | Re: Panel layout - was Completed Kitfoxes |
Good suggestions Stan. If I was where Gary is now, I'd put Tach and EGT in the
2" holes on left and a Tru-Trak ADI in the open big hole. With the ADI he can
ditch the ball, it has one built in. Make a new hole for intercom over on the
other side somewhere. There's plenty of room.
SOURDOSTAN@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 2/4/2008 7:46:50 P.M. Mountain
Standard Time, delbelbelluz@rogers.com writes:
I'm on the home stretch with the panel layout in my Classic IV
Good looking panel, Gary; however, I suggest some changes in instrument positions.
You'll most likely find that you will want certain flight and engine instruments
within your immediate view, especially during takeoff and landing.
I suggest you move your clock to where the tach is now (you don't really need
to refer to the clock very often); place the tach where the ball is now (so you
can easily see it without moving your head away from your immediate view outside
the cockpit); and place the ball where the clock is now. I have mine set
up similarly to what I am suggesting, and after almost 1300 hours find it very
suitable.
Keep up the good work!
Stan Specht
Kitfox Model IV Speedster "Columbine"
49 states and 1285 hours on a 912ul
Denver, Colorado
---------------------------------
Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
Marco Menezes
Model 2 582 N99KX
---------------------------------
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: RK400 clutch 582 application |
At 05:53 AM 2/5/2008, you wrote:
>The drag induced by a windmilling prop from the compression,
>friction, and load of the accessories impose on a direct drive
>engine is FAR greater than a freewheeling prop.
Two possible ways to think about this, John. First, think
about what helicopters do when they auto-rotate. As they pick up
blade speed their vertical descent speed decreases. (You can also see
this by making a paper helicopter. As they spin up they slow down.)
Second, for the engineering types remember that lift is
proportional to lift coefficient (Cl), blade area, density, and the
SQUARE of the velocity. Pushed blades are just lifting in reverse
(bad Cl) so area and density remain constant. Now Cl decreases as the
prop speeds up, (lower angle of attack,) but it's variance is linear,
and is overwhelmed by the squared velocity term. The faster the prop
spins, the greater the lift (drag).
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: propeller slip clutch |
Larry,
I have wondered the very same thing for the four years I've been using this
engine. I've had conversations with just about everyone including Lockwood
and other experts with no luck. When I changed from a GSC 3 blade to an IVO
medium two blade most of my problems with high midrange egts went away which
left me with just the seasonal stuff. I strongly suspect that the
instrumentation (Westach) is not helping. You may know that the
temperatures seen on these EGT gauges are based on a temperature of 75
degrees at the back of the instrument. This makes for uncertainty given the
cold winter temps around here coupled with the changing temp behind the
panel during normal operation.
Regarding the 40. During the brief period I tried the 40 I tried to fix the
too lean idle condition with idle air screw adjustments. Didn't work very
well so that's why I went back to 45.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "LarryM" <CrownLJ@verizon.net>
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 9:37 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: propeller slip clutch
>
> Bill.
>
> I wonder why you need to change so much with the season? We go from a
> density altitude of about minus 1500' to plus 3000'. I only have to
> change the clip position, and I'm trying for a better summer idle. I have
> a fixed pitch prop. It's funny how they idle better at 20F than at the
> summer temps. That leads me to believe that it is too rich in the summer.
> Perhaps the #40 is too small and can be adjusted by the mixture screws?
>
> larry
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=162511#162511
>
>
> --
> 1:50 PM
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: RK400 clutch 582 application |
In the case of the RK-400 clutch, the speed of the prop turning has no bearing
on the engagement of the clutch. It is the engine speed that determines when the
clutch engages/disengages.
In a descent with the engine RPM below the engagement threshold of the clutch or
in the case of a stopped engine, the prop will freewheel. It is known that a
freewheeling prop has higher drag than one that is stationary.
The purpose of the RK-400 clutch is to make starting easier and reduce wear on
the gearbox and engine during that start. Everyone who has driven a 2-stroke knows
how they rattle and gripe below 2500 rpm or so. This is due to the load of
the prop. Prop load at start becomes a non-issue with the clutch, so starts
are easier and smoother - especially if you have pull start.
As for not being able to prop your engine with the clutch, it is most unlikely
that one will be able to prop start a 582 with a ducati ignition. The ducati ignition
doesn't start to develop a spark until around 800 engine rpm or thereabouts.
This translates to about 300 prop rpm.
One important note: If you use a clutch, make sure to warm up the engine thoroughly
at an engine rpm at which the prop is being driven (3000 is a good number).
You need that prop load on the engine so it generates enough heat to become
thoroughly heat soaked before piling on the coal for a takeoff.
Lastly, if you use the E-box on your engine, you cannot use the RK-400 clutch --
unless you shift to a mag end starter or use the pull start. The RK-400 will
decouple the starter on the E-box from the engine. All that will happen is you'll
spin your prop but not the engine. With the RK-400 clutch, you are limited
to the C-box.
John Alexander
Woodland, CA
On Mon, 4 Feb 2008 16:54:47 -0600, Pat Reilly wrote
> Guy Bucahanan, You stated how much you like your 582 with the clutch. What aboutdurning
decent? Someone stated the clutch does't disengage and drives the engine.
Can you comment on this and more on any drawbacks of the application. I
know the benifits. Thank You
>
> Pat Reilly
> Mod 3 Rebuild
> Rockford, IL
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Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Completed Kitfoxes |
Here is a couple of pics on the panel in 205AK before radio installation
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of avidfox
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 11:30 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Completed Kitfoxes
84KF panel pic attached....
I cannot take credit for the layout, but I find it quite functional.
The throttle was put on the left as the builder was ex-military and I guess
he felt more comfortable with it there.
Steve Benesh
84KF
"5" 912UL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=162471#162471
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/kf_panel2_582.jpg
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Completed Kitfoxes |
Tom Jones wrote:
>
>
>
>> For those of us looking to build, I would love to see a section devoted to completed
kits and panels, more than just the few Kitfox has on their site. This
would provide inspiration and motivation to get/keep us going.
>>
>
>
>
> There is some very nice work progressing on those foxes. Here's a panel picture
from the other end of the spectrum...just for a little balance for the basic
folks.
>
> --------
> Tom Jones
> Classic IV, Phase one
> 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
> Ellensburg, WA
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=162510#162510
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/panel_120.jpg
>
>
> Simple,,but still an very nice panel..very clean..Steve Shinabery N554KF KF2
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Completed Kitfoxes |
Good day all,
My panel is 'steam driven' .
I used Mahogony veneer and epoxy varnish (6 coats) for the finish.
Note the Post lights. I converted them to LEDs.
Electrical load on the instruments lights is 300ma.
Doug Remoundos
Classic IV
Paint this spring
________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever. Check out the new AIM(R) Mail ! -
http://webmail.aim.com
Message 13
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| Subject: | Completed Kitfoxes |
Good day all,
My panel is 'steam driven' .
I used Mahogony veneer and epoxy varnish (6 coats) for the finish.
Note the Post lights. I converted them to LEDs.
Electrical load on the instruments lights is 300ma.
Doug Remoundos
Classic IV
Paint this spring
________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever. Check out the new AIM(R) Mail ! -
http://webmail.aim.com
Message 14
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| Subject: | capacitance fuel probes |
Has anyone installed capacitance fuel probes in Kitfox tanks? If so, how was
this executed? Looks a tad challenging since the top of the tank makes up the
top of the wing.
John Alexander
Woodland, CA
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: propeller slip clutch |
When you say the plugs look good, What colour are they?
Running at 1100 F with the needle on bottom clip at 20 F ? What RPM is that at
?
What do you get static with the IVO Med and what is your WIDE open Throttle RPM
?
Dave
> Larry,
> My jetting is the same as your except for a 2.74 with the needle in the
> fourth slot. I tried a 40 idle jet and couldn't keep the engine running at
> idle so went back to 45. My arrangement produces an ok idle at about 2000
> when the temps are in the 20s or lower. In flight I'm getting about 1100 at
> these OATs. Since I'm using the cheap analog EGT gauges I really have no
> clear idea what the temps are other than I hope I'm seeing something within
> 100 degrees of what really is (the plugs look good). I'm operating from OWK
> in Maine which is 270 msl. I end up having to change main, needle clip, and
> needle jet each major season change (not to mention the inevitable prop
> pitch change) and I find it a real pain. There are some two-stroke people
> here who don't change anything ever and seem to do fine. So I'm hoping that
> when I install a 912S this summer at least this sort of problem will go away
> (to be replaced with problems as yet unknown, I suppose).
> Bill
> IV-1200
>
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=162616#162616
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: RK400 clutch 582 application |
At 02:20 PM 2/5/2008, you wrote:
>In a descent with the engine RPM below the engagement threshold of
>the clutch or in the case of a stopped engine, the prop will
>freewheel. It is known that a freewheeling prop has higher drag
>than one that is stationary.
Just to clarify. If I pull the throttle and descend, the
engine will remain at some high idle or even higher RPM, being driven
by the prop. If I slow until the engine RPM drops below 2400 it will
immediately drop to 1500. I can then accelerate to any speed and the
engine will remain at 1500, while the prop appears to spin like crazy.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 17
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| Subject: | Completed Kitfoxes |
Doug, Panel looks great. What brand and model 3 1/8 inch gages and where di
d you get them? I need Alt. Compass, VSI for my panel.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 rebuild
Rockford, IL> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com> Subject: Kitfox-List: Complete
d Kitfoxes> Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 21:09:38 -0500> From: dpremgood@aim.com>
> Good day all,> > My panel is 'steam driven' .> I used Mahogony veneer and
epoxy varnish (6 coats) for the finish.> Note the Post lights. I converted
them to LEDs.> Electrical load on the instruments lights is 300ma.> > Doug
Remoundos> Classic IV> Paint this spring> > > ____________________________
____________________________________________> More new features than ever.
Check out the new AIM(R) Mail ! - > http://webmail.aim.com
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: RK400 clutch 582 application |
This certainly makes sense, since the RK-400 clutch is set to disengage at
about 2500 rpm. I'm guessing that with older ones, the springs that hold the
slipper shoes back at low rpm get tired and so engage and disengage at lower rpm.
But yes, as long as the engine rpm is below the engagement rpm for the clutch,
the prop will go to town - spinning freely.
Please do take note of my aside on warming the engine with the clutch
installed. I repair more than a few cold seizured engines every year. This
is something that is completely avoidable, but becomes something to always
keep in mind when using the RK-400 clutch, since the engine can operate at
very low rpm and load factors. Long, low power descents followed by a
go-around is where you will get bit here.
John Alexander
On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 19:02:32 -0800, Guy Buchanan wrote
>
> At 02:20 PM 2/5/2008, you wrote:
> >In a descent with the engine RPM below the engagement threshold of
> >the clutch or in the case of a stopped engine, the prop will
> >freewheel. It is known that a freewheeling prop has higher drag
> >than one that is stationary.
>
> Just to clarify. If I pull the throttle and descend, the
> engine will remain at some high idle or even higher RPM, being
> driven by the prop. If I slow until the engine RPM drops below 2400
> it will immediately drop to 1500. I can then accelerate to any speed
> and the engine will remain at 1500, while the prop appears to spin
> like crazy.
>
> Guy Buchanan
> San Diego, CA
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>
--
Beer is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy. - Ben Franklin
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Completed Kitfoxes |
Mmmmm.... drool!!! That is what I'd call a centerfold for "PanelBoy
Magazine". Very pleasing unto the eye.
On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 21:09:38 -0500, dpremgood wrote
> Good day all,
>
> My panel is 'steam driven' .
> I used Mahogony veneer and epoxy varnish (6 coats) for the finish.
> Note the Post lights. I converted them to LEDs.
> Electrical load on the instruments lights is 300ma.
>
> Doug Remoundos
> Classic IV
> Paint this spring
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> More new features than ever. Check out the new AIM(R) Mail ! -
> http://webmail.aim.com
--
Beer is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy. - Ben Franklin
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