---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 02/05/08: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:56 AM - Re: Re: RK400 clutch 582 application (JohnW. Hart) 2. 06:32 AM - Re: Completed Kitfoxes (Tom Jones) 3. 06:40 AM - Re: propeller slip clutch (LarryM) 4. 06:44 AM - Re: RK400 clutch 582 application (Tom Jones) 5. 07:18 AM - Re: Info found on HVLP gun setup! (n85ae) 6. 07:49 AM - Re: Panel layout - was Completed Kitfoxes (Marco Menezes) 7. 08:05 AM - Re: Re: Re: RK400 clutch 582 application (Guy Buchanan) 8. 11:50 AM - Re: Re: propeller slip clutch (Chenoweth) 9. 02:23 PM - Re: RK400 clutch 582 application (John Alexander) 10. 04:15 PM - Re: Re: Completed Kitfoxes (kirk hull) 11. 05:44 PM - Re: Re: Completed Kitfoxes (Steve Shinabery) 12. 06:12 PM - Completed Kitfoxes (dpremgood@aim.com) 13. 06:13 PM - Completed Kitfoxes (dpremgood@aim.com) 14. 06:45 PM - capacitance fuel probes (John Alexander) 15. 07:05 PM - Re: propeller slip clutch (dave) 16. 07:09 PM - Re: Re: RK400 clutch 582 application (Guy Buchanan) 17. 07:26 PM - Re: Completed Kitfoxes (patrick reilly) 18. 07:35 PM - Re: Re: RK400 clutch 582 application (John Alexander) 19. 07:38 PM - Re: Completed Kitfoxes (John Alexander) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:56:17 AM PST US From: "JohnW. Hart" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: RK400 clutch 582 application An opinion: It appears to me that the gearbox with a Sprague (or overrunning) clutch which is found in helicopters, on an engine drivetrain would be MUCH less drag in a dead engine situation than would a direct drive prop. A dead direct drive engine will windmill at normal glide speeds so long as the internal components of the engine are intact (speaking from experience). In order to stop a fixed pitch direct drive prop, the aircraft must be slowed well below best glide speed. A controllable pitch prop, such as found on most multiengine planes, can be set to feather, which will cause it not windmill. In twin-engine engine out operations, the primary things to do after identifying which side has a dead engine is to maintain airspeed above VMC, apply full throttle to the good engine, clean up drag which is gear, flaps and feather the bad engine prop. Quite a few twin engine airplanes will not climb at maximum gross takeoff weight until the bad engine's prop is feathered. The drag induced by a windmilling prop from the compression, friction, and load of the accessories impose on a direct drive engine is FAR greater than a freewheeling prop. As for the "rotor brake" idea, it would work to stop a windmilling, non-feathering prop, but I think the blades would then impose more drag than they would if windmilling. The effect would be similar to sticking a 2" X 4" with the 4" side vertical out either side of the cockpit the distance of the prop blade length. The only advantage I could see is that stopping the prop may help prevent damage to the prop itself in the event of gear failure during landing. John Hart Model IV N44CN Oklahoma From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of 84KF Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 11:17 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: RK400 clutch 582 application "...you cant stop the prop from wind milling in the case of an engine out,..." Leni, Would it be possible to fabricate something like a simple helicopter style "rotor brake" for just such an occasion? Has it been done before? or...Is it a totally stupid idea? Just thinking out loud here..... Steve 84KF ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:08 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Completed Kitfoxes From: "Tom Jones" > For those of us looking to build, I would love to see a section devoted to completed kits and panels, more than just the few Kitfox has on their site. This would provide inspiration and motivation to get/keep us going. There is some very nice work progressing on those foxes. Here's a panel picture from the other end of the spectrum...just for a little balance for the basic folks. -------- Tom Jones Classic IV, Phase one 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp Ellensburg, WA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=162510#162510 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/panel_120.jpg ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:40:29 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: propeller slip clutch From: "LarryM" Bill. I wonder why you need to change so much with the season? We go from a density altitude of about minus 1500' to plus 3000'. I only have to change the clip position, and I'm trying for a better summer idle. I have a fixed pitch prop. It's funny how they idle better at 20F than at the summer temps. That leads me to believe that it is too rich in the summer. Perhaps the #40 is too small and can be adjusted by the mixture screws? larry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=162511#162511 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:44:10 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: RK400 clutch 582 application From: "Tom Jones" > The drag induced by a windmilling prop from the compression, friction, and load of the accessories impose on a direct drive engine is FAR greater than a freewheeling prop. > > As for the rotor brake idea, it would work to stop a windmilling, non-feathering prop, but I think the blades would then impose more drag than they would if windmilling. Actually it is just the opposite. A freewheeling prop produces much more drag than a stopped prop or one windmilling at reduced engine speed. With the gearbox clutch, if the engine stops and the prop freewheels, your options for landing areas is greatly reduced. It would be good for the pilot to know how much drag the freewheeling prop produces and know what to expect when it happens. -------- Tom Jones Classic IV, Phase one 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp Ellensburg, WA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=162512#162512 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:18:49 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Info found on HVLP gun setup! From: "n85ae" Looks like the one I have. I have used it to paint with System Three WR-LPU (waterborne polyurethane), WR-155 (waterborne epoxy primer). It works fine. The "Hvlp" is a real misnomer, as it is still just a gravity feed paint gun. It is a decent gun. Take it apart and deburr mechanics and it will do the job. I like Aerothane better than the waterborne paint, but I like my health even more. The waterborne system three I mentioned is for hard surfaces so don't use it for fabric. I think there are some waterborne paints with a flex additive. Waterborne paint is tough to paint as it is prone to as I call it foaming. Where the air from the spray gun gets into the paint, and the surface cures before the bubbles can flow out. This is better painted with a true HVLP paint gun, but can be done if you practice a lot with a conventional gun. None the less water borne paints can be frustrating. Another option is rolling and tipping. Go to the KC Dawn Patrol website and look at how they do it. This is great option for fabric I think. A lot of people scoff at the idea of rolling on paint, but I've looked at a lot of boats, guitars, furniture, etc that were done this way and you can get just as good a finish this way if you learn the techniques. Regards, Jeff. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=162516#162516 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:49:47 AM PST US From: Marco Menezes Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Panel layout - was Completed Kitfoxes Good suggestions Stan. If I was where Gary is now, I'd put Tach and EGT in the 2" holes on left and a Tru-Trak ADI in the open big hole. With the ADI he can ditch the ball, it has one built in. Make a new hole for intercom over on the other side somewhere. There's plenty of room. SOURDOSTAN@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 2/4/2008 7:46:50 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, delbelbelluz@rogers.com writes: I'm on the home stretch with the panel layout in my Classic IV Good looking panel, Gary; however, I suggest some changes in instrument positions. You'll most likely find that you will want certain flight and engine instruments within your immediate view, especially during takeoff and landing. I suggest you move your clock to where the tach is now (you don't really need to refer to the clock very often); place the tach where the ball is now (so you can easily see it without moving your head away from your immediate view outside the cockpit); and place the ball where the clock is now. I have mine set up similarly to what I am suggesting, and after almost 1300 hours find it very suitable. Keep up the good work! Stan Specht Kitfox Model IV Speedster "Columbine" 49 states and 1285 hours on a 912ul Denver, Colorado --------------------------------- Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. Marco Menezes Model 2 582 N99KX --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:05:21 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: RK400 clutch 582 application At 05:53 AM 2/5/2008, you wrote: >The drag induced by a windmilling prop from the compression, >friction, and load of the accessories impose on a direct drive >engine is FAR greater than a freewheeling prop. Two possible ways to think about this, John. First, think about what helicopters do when they auto-rotate. As they pick up blade speed their vertical descent speed decreases. (You can also see this by making a paper helicopter. As they spin up they slow down.) Second, for the engineering types remember that lift is proportional to lift coefficient (Cl), blade area, density, and the SQUARE of the velocity. Pushed blades are just lifting in reverse (bad Cl) so area and density remain constant. Now Cl decreases as the prop speeds up, (lower angle of attack,) but it's variance is linear, and is overwhelmed by the squared velocity term. The faster the prop spins, the greater the lift (drag). Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:50:17 AM PST US From: "Chenoweth" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: propeller slip clutch Larry, I have wondered the very same thing for the four years I've been using this engine. I've had conversations with just about everyone including Lockwood and other experts with no luck. When I changed from a GSC 3 blade to an IVO medium two blade most of my problems with high midrange egts went away which left me with just the seasonal stuff. I strongly suspect that the instrumentation (Westach) is not helping. You may know that the temperatures seen on these EGT gauges are based on a temperature of 75 degrees at the back of the instrument. This makes for uncertainty given the cold winter temps around here coupled with the changing temp behind the panel during normal operation. Regarding the 40. During the brief period I tried the 40 I tried to fix the too lean idle condition with idle air screw adjustments. Didn't work very well so that's why I went back to 45. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "LarryM" Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 9:37 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: propeller slip clutch > > Bill. > > I wonder why you need to change so much with the season? We go from a > density altitude of about minus 1500' to plus 3000'. I only have to > change the clip position, and I'm trying for a better summer idle. I have > a fixed pitch prop. It's funny how they idle better at 20F than at the > summer temps. That leads me to believe that it is too rich in the summer. > Perhaps the #40 is too small and can be adjusted by the mixture screws? > > larry > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=162511#162511 > > > -- > 1:50 PM > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:23:51 PM PST US From: "John Alexander" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: RK400 clutch 582 application In the case of the RK-400 clutch, the speed of the prop turning has no bearing on the engagement of the clutch. It is the engine speed that determines when the clutch engages/disengages. In a descent with the engine RPM below the engagement threshold of the clutch or in the case of a stopped engine, the prop will freewheel. It is known that a freewheeling prop has higher drag than one that is stationary. The purpose of the RK-400 clutch is to make starting easier and reduce wear on the gearbox and engine during that start. Everyone who has driven a 2-stroke knows how they rattle and gripe below 2500 rpm or so. This is due to the load of the prop. Prop load at start becomes a non-issue with the clutch, so starts are easier and smoother - especially if you have pull start. As for not being able to prop your engine with the clutch, it is most unlikely that one will be able to prop start a 582 with a ducati ignition. The ducati ignition doesn't start to develop a spark until around 800 engine rpm or thereabouts. This translates to about 300 prop rpm. One important note: If you use a clutch, make sure to warm up the engine thoroughly at an engine rpm at which the prop is being driven (3000 is a good number). You need that prop load on the engine so it generates enough heat to become thoroughly heat soaked before piling on the coal for a takeoff. Lastly, if you use the E-box on your engine, you cannot use the RK-400 clutch -- unless you shift to a mag end starter or use the pull start. The RK-400 will decouple the starter on the E-box from the engine. All that will happen is you'll spin your prop but not the engine. With the RK-400 clutch, you are limited to the C-box. John Alexander Woodland, CA On Mon, 4 Feb 2008 16:54:47 -0600, Pat Reilly wrote > Guy Bucahanan, You stated how much you like your 582 with the clutch. What aboutdurning decent? Someone stated the clutch does't disengage and drives the engine. Can you comment on this and more on any drawbacks of the application. I know the benifits. Thank You > > Pat Reilly > Mod 3 Rebuild > Rockford, IL - browse Un/Subscription, FAQ, more: - Forums! - support! Admin. -- Beer is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy. - Ben Franklin ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:15:52 PM PST US From: "kirk hull" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Completed Kitfoxes Here is a couple of pics on the panel in 205AK before radio installation -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of avidfox Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 11:30 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Completed Kitfoxes 84KF panel pic attached.... I cannot take credit for the layout, but I find it quite functional. The throttle was put on the left as the builder was ex-military and I guess he felt more comfortable with it there. Steve Benesh 84KF "5" 912UL Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=162471#162471 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/kf_panel2_582.jpg ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:44:50 PM PST US From: Steve Shinabery Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Completed Kitfoxes Tom Jones wrote: > > > >> For those of us looking to build, I would love to see a section devoted to completed kits and panels, more than just the few Kitfox has on their site. This would provide inspiration and motivation to get/keep us going. >> > > > > There is some very nice work progressing on those foxes. Here's a panel picture from the other end of the spectrum...just for a little balance for the basic folks. > > -------- > Tom Jones > Classic IV, Phase one > 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp > Ellensburg, WA > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=162510#162510 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/panel_120.jpg > > > Simple,,but still an very nice panel..very clean..Steve Shinabery N554KF KF2 > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:12:48 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Completed Kitfoxes From: dpremgood@aim.com Good day all, My panel is 'steam driven' . I used Mahogony veneer and epoxy varnish (6 coats) for the finish. Note the Post lights. I converted them to LEDs. Electrical load on the instruments lights is 300ma. Doug Remoundos Classic IV Paint this spring ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AIM(R) Mail ! - http://webmail.aim.com ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:13:31 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Completed Kitfoxes From: dpremgood@aim.com Good day all, My panel is 'steam driven' . I used Mahogony veneer and epoxy varnish (6 coats) for the finish. Note the Post lights. I converted them to LEDs. Electrical load on the instruments lights is 300ma. Doug Remoundos Classic IV Paint this spring ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AIM(R) Mail ! - http://webmail.aim.com ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:45:52 PM PST US From: "John Alexander" Subject: Kitfox-List: capacitance fuel probes Has anyone installed capacitance fuel probes in Kitfox tanks? If so, how was this executed? Looks a tad challenging since the top of the tank makes up the top of the wing. John Alexander Woodland, CA ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:05:29 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: propeller slip clutch From: "dave" When you say the plugs look good, What colour are they? Running at 1100 F with the needle on bottom clip at 20 F ? What RPM is that at ? What do you get static with the IVO Med and what is your WIDE open Throttle RPM ? Dave > Larry, > My jetting is the same as your except for a 2.74 with the needle in the > fourth slot. I tried a 40 idle jet and couldn't keep the engine running at > idle so went back to 45. My arrangement produces an ok idle at about 2000 > when the temps are in the 20s or lower. In flight I'm getting about 1100 at > these OATs. Since I'm using the cheap analog EGT gauges I really have no > clear idea what the temps are other than I hope I'm seeing something within > 100 degrees of what really is (the plugs look good). I'm operating from OWK > in Maine which is 270 msl. I end up having to change main, needle clip, and > needle jet each major season change (not to mention the inevitable prop > pitch change) and I find it a real pain. There are some two-stroke people > here who don't change anything ever and seem to do fine. So I'm hoping that > when I install a 912S this summer at least this sort of problem will go away > (to be replaced with problems as yet unknown, I suppose). > Bill > IV-1200 > -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada Flying Videos and Kitfox Info http://www.cfisher.com/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=162616#162616 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:09:19 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Re: Kitfox-List: RK400 clutch 582 application At 02:20 PM 2/5/2008, you wrote: >In a descent with the engine RPM below the engagement threshold of >the clutch or in the case of a stopped engine, the prop will >freewheel. It is known that a freewheeling prop has higher drag >than one that is stationary. Just to clarify. If I pull the throttle and descend, the engine will remain at some high idle or even higher RPM, being driven by the prop. If I slow until the engine RPM drops below 2400 it will immediately drop to 1500. I can then accelerate to any speed and the engine will remain at 1500, while the prop appears to spin like crazy. Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:26:29 PM PST US From: patrick reilly Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Completed Kitfoxes Doug, Panel looks great. What brand and model 3 1/8 inch gages and where di d you get them? I need Alt. Compass, VSI for my panel. Pat Reilly Mod 3 rebuild Rockford, IL> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com> Subject: Kitfox-List: Complete d Kitfoxes> Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 21:09:38 -0500> From: dpremgood@aim.com> > Good day all,> > My panel is 'steam driven' .> I used Mahogony veneer and epoxy varnish (6 coats) for the finish.> Note the Post lights. I converted them to LEDs.> Electrical load on the instruments lights is 300ma.> > Doug Remoundos> Classic IV> Paint this spring> > > ____________________________ ____________________________________________> More new features than ever. Check out the new AIM(R) Mail ! - > http://webmail.aim.com ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:35:14 PM PST US From: "John Alexander" Subject: Re: Re: Kitfox-List: RK400 clutch 582 application This certainly makes sense, since the RK-400 clutch is set to disengage at about 2500 rpm. I'm guessing that with older ones, the springs that hold the slipper shoes back at low rpm get tired and so engage and disengage at lower rpm. But yes, as long as the engine rpm is below the engagement rpm for the clutch, the prop will go to town - spinning freely. Please do take note of my aside on warming the engine with the clutch installed. I repair more than a few cold seizured engines every year. This is something that is completely avoidable, but becomes something to always keep in mind when using the RK-400 clutch, since the engine can operate at very low rpm and load factors. Long, low power descents followed by a go-around is where you will get bit here. John Alexander On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 19:02:32 -0800, Guy Buchanan wrote > > At 02:20 PM 2/5/2008, you wrote: > >In a descent with the engine RPM below the engagement threshold of > >the clutch or in the case of a stopped engine, the prop will > >freewheel. It is known that a freewheeling prop has higher drag > >than one that is stationary. > > Just to clarify. If I pull the throttle and descend, the > engine will remain at some high idle or even higher RPM, being > driven by the prop. If I slow until the engine RPM drops below 2400 > it will immediately drop to 1500. I can then accelerate to any speed > and the engine will remain at 1500, while the prop appears to spin > like crazy. > > Guy Buchanan > San Diego, CA > K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. > -- Beer is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy. - Ben Franklin ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:38:35 PM PST US From: "John Alexander" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Completed Kitfoxes Mmmmm.... drool!!! That is what I'd call a centerfold for "PanelBoy Magazine". Very pleasing unto the eye. On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 21:09:38 -0500, dpremgood wrote > Good day all, > > My panel is 'steam driven' . > I used Mahogony veneer and epoxy varnish (6 coats) for the finish. > Note the Post lights. I converted them to LEDs. > Electrical load on the instruments lights is 300ma. > > Doug Remoundos > Classic IV > Paint this spring > > ________________________________________________________________________ > More new features than ever. Check out the new AIM(R) Mail ! - > http://webmail.aim.com -- Beer is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy. - Ben Franklin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.