Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:51 AM - Re: Re: 912s at Sun n Fun (Chenoweth)
2. 06:22 AM - Re: Bungee Gear Leg (Tom Jones)
3. 06:32 AM - 6" gear extension (LarryM)
4. 08:47 AM - cross winds concerns (jlno7@aim.com)
5. 08:50 AM - Re: 6" gear extension (wingnut)
6. 09:04 AM - Re: Re: 6" gear extension (Sbennett3@aol.com)
7. 09:06 AM - Re: cross winds concerns (n85ae)
8. 09:24 AM - Florida Tax Law Clarification (Guy Buchanan)
9. 09:32 AM - Re: cross winds concerns (Guy Buchanan)
10. 10:11 AM - Re: 6" gear extension (LarryM)
11. 11:06 AM - Re: 6" gear extension (wingnut)
12. 11:21 AM - Re: cross winds concerns (wingnut)
13. 11:33 AM - Re: 6" gear extension (wingnut)
14. 11:40 AM - Re: Re: 6" gear extension (Sbennett3@aol.com)
15. 11:42 AM - Re: cross winds concerns (n85ae)
16. 12:45 PM - Re: Re: cross winds concerns (Michel Verheughe)
17. 01:38 PM - Re: Re: TCP (Noel Loveys)
18. 02:04 PM - Need NSI Subaru Operating Limitations (John W. Hart)
19. 02:20 PM - Re: Re: TCP (Noel Loveys)
20. 03:00 PM - Re: TCP (dave)
21. 03:05 PM - Re: 6" gear extension (dave)
22. 03:09 PM - Need NSI Subaru Operating Limitations (fox5flyer)
23. 03:34 PM - Re: Need NSI Subaru Operating Limitations (A Smith)
24. 03:36 PM - Re: 6" gear extension (wingnut)
25. 03:46 PM - Re: 6" gear extension (wingnut)
26. 03:51 PM - Re: 6" gear extension (wingnut)
27. 04:17 PM - Re: TCP (Mnflyer)
28. 04:22 PM - Re: 6" gear extension (dave)
29. 04:28 PM - Re: cross winds concerns (dave)
30. 05:00 PM - Re: Need NSI Subaru Operating Limitations (John W. Hart)
31. 05:19 PM - Re: 6" gear extension (dave)
32. 05:53 PM - Great Lakes kitfox Fly-In (steve shinabery)
33. 09:36 PM - Re: Sun-N-Fun 2008: What are your plans? (wingnut)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: 912s at Sun n Fun |
Lynn and Travis - I will definitely look you guys up.
Bill
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynn Matteson" <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 10:12 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: 912s at Sun n Fun
>
> I don't either, Bill, but I'd be glad to let you shoot pictures of my
> engine installation and help you change your mind about engine choices.
> : ) That is, if the weather cooperates.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Grass Lake, Michigan
> Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
> flying w/480+ hrs/down for annual
> do not archive
>
>
> On Apr 3, 2008, at 9:35 PM, FlyboyTR wrote:
>
>>
>> Bill,
>> I don't have a Rotax in my plane...but feel free to visit the UL/ Camping
>> area. Looks like it will be the Kitfox corner of the world! Hopefully
>> we'll get to meet you!
>>
>> Travis
>> :D
>
>
> --
> Date: 4/1/2008 5:37 PM
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Bungee Gear Leg |
Cory,
Thanks for posting the pictures of the collapsed gear leg. I see that the tube
without a fairing attached is the one that failed. I was just wondering if epoxying
a wood fairing on that front tube also would strengthen it. It shouldn't
be too visible as long as the gear is covered.
If you haven't found them yet here is a direct link to a service letter on thew gear legs. http://www.kitfoxaircraft.com/support/service_letters/sl48.htm
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
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| Subject: | 6" gear extension |
I finally got a chance to extend vertically my Grove gear by 6". I did so in order
to have a better angle of attack for take off and landing, as the airplane
would want to fly before the gear geometry would allow it to, similarly, the
tail would always bang on before the wing was done flying. The change does make
a difference. I can not tell you exactly how much, as it's been fairly windy,
but, I can definitely get the nose up higher without hitting the tail. I
do need to change my sight picture, as I have the tendency to hold the "old"
angle so I don't slam the tail. I'm thinking that I can see (remembering that
IAS is inaccurate at high angles of attach) about 5mph slower at touch down.
Take off is also sooner, as the geometry will allow for lift off at slower speed.
The mod was quite simple, I just bolted a 3/4" piece of aluminum block to the
axle holes. The same brake lines could be used.
larry
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Attachments:
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| Subject: | cross winds concerns |
Does anyone know the maximum crosswind that a beginning student pilot can safely
fly when taking lessons in a Kitfox 1?? Is there a guideline or is it just judgment?
Jerry Novak
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| Subject: | Re: 6" gear extension |
Curious. The short field takeoff procedure that I was taught involved lots of forward
stick to get the tail up as soon as possible. The idea being to minimize
drag and maximize acceleration. I take it that you do it differently?
Also, on my Kitfox the AOA on the ground is about the same as power off stall when
flaps are deployed. Thus, I too would bang the tail with flaps up. However,
with flaps deployed, it stalls right into a three point landing. I take it
that your kitfox behaved differently? Any idea what might cause the difference?
--------
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)
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| Subject: | Re: 6" gear extension |
I was taught in a short field to 3 point take off, level off in ground
effect to increase speed, then up and out. As far as landing, 3 pointing it is
not
my preferred landing. I like to main wheel land it as it gives me more
control before the tail comes down. I don't land in short fields. Steve Bennett
(http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)
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| Subject: | Re: cross winds concerns |
Probably 5 or less if you are a student. I tried 15-20 on a gusty day
as a non-student and did a sweet 270 right in front of the airport
restaraunt at lunch time a couple years ago. Groundlooping is not
fun.
Jeff
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| Subject: | Florida Tax Law Clarification |
All,
This link supposedly clarifies Florida's recent tax law ruckus:
http://www.aopa.org/advocacy/articles/2008/080328fl.pdf
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
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| Subject: | Re: cross winds concerns |
At 08:44 AM 4/4/2008, you wrote:
>Does anyone know the maximum crosswind that a beginning student
>pilot can safely fly when taking lessons in a Kitfox 1? Is there a
>guideline or is it just judgment?
Personally I would start out with something very near 0. (We
get that reliably before 8am.) I would then work up. The upper limit
is defined by comfort. One technique I use regularly is to set up the
landing while on final. This is called the "slip" landing technique.
It lets you know, worst case, whether your plane will fly the
attitude required to land: whether you have enough rudder authority;
whether a wing or other hardware is too low; etc. You have to be
careful because in a strong crosswind you will be in a very strong
slip and will therefore have to watch that you keep the speed well
above stall. Note that I said worst case. The wind on the ground is
nearly always much less than that at altitude, which means you can
sometimes get in even when it looks, on final, like you won't; just
be ready to go around.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
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| Subject: | Re: 6" gear extension |
I don't think that a single short field technique works on all airplanes. The
Avid definitely takes off much shorter in a 3 point attitude. The nominal angle
that the wing sat at was 10 degrees while in the 3 point. It now sits about
3 degrees higher. Bringing the tail up would reduce the angle of attach and
therefore you would need more forward speed to develop the required to lift off.
Ideally, a wing sitting in the 3 point should be at the stall angle of attack
or higher so that you could bring the tail up. But, my experience in the
Avid is that the take off run is the shortest with 3 point and full flaps.
As far as landing, its the same thing in reverse. I don't know what the critical
angle of attach officially is, but its more than 13 degrees. Try flying as
slow as possible (at altitude). You will probably find full power nose way up
30+ degrees. Obviously, we can't safely land this way, but somewhere around
there would be the slowest touchdown speed. Perhaps your tail is not effective
enough to get the wing to the critical angle of attack without power, or even
with power. I know mine wasn't. I did increase the tail surface and add
VGs to the underside. I still have less effectiveness than I would like to see.
Power on helps a lot to keep the air flowing over the elevator and is a noticeable
difference. The wing wants to fly so much that to experience some of
this, you have to get up early. That is while there is no wind or day time heating.
The perfect clam of pre-dawn - I love it. Anyway, that's my 2 cents.........
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| Subject: | Re: 6" gear extension |
> Bringing the tail up would reduce the angle of attach and therefore you would
need more forward speed to develop the required to lift off
That all makes sense but I thought that the idea of lifting the tail was to enable
the airplane to get to takeoff speed faster. Takeoff speed still being defined
as the a speed at which the airplane will fly outside of ground effect regardless
of attitude. When you get to that speed, then you drop the tail.
As I write this though, I think I see what I was missing. The point at which you
can drop the tail and get in the air will be slower on your airplane because
you can get the airplane closer to your critical AOA "with power on". which is
much higher than the critical AOA with power off. I still wonder though, if
you wouldn't get to that magic speed faster with the tail up.
> As far as landing, its the same thing in reverse. I don't know what the critical
angle of attach officially is, but its more than 13 degrees. Try flying as
slow as possible (at altitude). You will probably find full power nose way up
30+ degrees. Obviously, we can't safely land this way, but somewhere around there
would be the slowest touchdown speed.
That's only true if you land at full throttle. As I said, my critical AOA with
power off (which is the power setting I like to land with) is more or less right
at the AOA she sits at on the ground. I know that I have enough elevator authority
to get there because I've hit that point on many occasions a tad too high
causing her to plop down. All that is to say that it sounds like your critical
AOA is still higher than mine even with power off and flaps deployed. Are
you using VGs?
--------
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)
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| Subject: | Re: cross winds concerns |
I asked my instructor the same thing when I was taking lessons in my Kitfox. His
reply was that, lacking the rigorous testing that conventional airplanes go
though to determine the safe cross wind component, a good rule of thumb is 20%
of the stall speed. That's only 8mph in a Kitfox but keep in mind that this is
only that component of the wind that is directly across the runway. So, if you
have a wind that is crossing the runway at 30 degrees, then the cross wind
component half the actual wind speed so 16mph is fine. Gusting is another issue.
I'm personally not comfortable with gusts beyond +5.
--------
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)
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| Subject: | Re: 6" gear extension |
> I was taught in a short field to 3 point take off, level off in ground effect
to increase speed, then up and out.
This is what I was taught for soft field procedures. As I was taught, for this
situation you want to be producing as much lift as you can as early as possible.
Consequently, you get off the ground before the airplane can fly safely outside
of ground effect. This is why you have to level out and increase speed before
you can safely exit ground effect. Is it possible that you got the two confused?
--------
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)
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| Subject: | Re: 6" gear extension |
Luis, My mistake... Short field, both brakes, full throttle...
(http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)
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| Subject: | Re: cross winds concerns |
Kitfox with the flaperons can land in enormously high crosswinds. More so
than most certficated planes. The issue is you can also get yourself into
deep "stuff", by doing that too much. Since it makes you braver than you
should.
I have a really big grass glider field nearby and have practiced 20 kt.
crosswind landings in the series 5 before. It is doable, but I would not
recommend it on a paved narrow runway.
Stay close to zero is the best advice.
Jeff
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| Subject: | Re: cross winds concerns |
> From: n85ae [n85ae@yahoo.com]
> Kitfox with the flaperons can land in enormously high crosswinds.
I agree that my model 3 flaperons give good roll control in gusty crosswind but
the problem is to keep the plane from windvaning when the three wheels are on
the ground.
Cheers,
Michel
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
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I have seen the formula somewhere... Mineral oil, Stoddard Solvent and lard
were in it...I'm not sure about additional ingredients. I think Dave Fisher
may have the formula somewhere. It has been posted here before.
Discussion on MMO is something akin to discussing the different colours of
Scotch Brite.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mnflyer
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 9:56 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: TCP
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:05 pm Post subject: TCP
Considering MMO is mostly Stoddard solvent It may work as well on the upper
cylinder... I doubt it will do the square root of sweet nothing to protect
your main bearings from lead plating if you use 100LL.
Noel So what proof can you offer that MMO is mostly Stoddard solvent?
I,m curious have never seen it listed as part of the formula.
--------
GB
MNFlyer
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| Subject: | Need NSI Subaru Operating Limitations |
Is anyone using a NSI Subaru (118hp) that would be willing to email me a
copy of their Engine Operating Limitations? I have the incorrect engine
book for my engine. I'd appreciate it very much.
Thanks,
John Hart
Kitfox Model IV
NSI Subaru Engine
Wilburton, OK
Message 19
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Try this one:
http://www.setonresourcecenter.com/msds/docs/wcd00043/wcd04377.htm
They don't give the percentages but they do give
1,2 Di-chloro-benzene
Mineral spirits ( Stoddard Solvent)
NAPTHENIC HYDROCARBONS
I have seen reference to lard mentioned many times.. Being organic it may
not have to be listed.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ronlee
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 12:00 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: TCP
I have the same question. How do you know MMO is Stoddard solvent? Where
did you find that information or is just a guess or hearsay?
The mining companies use it by the 55 gallon barrels for many applications
including all air tools. The military also uses barrels of the stuff. In
view of this I wouldn't think it is Stoddard solvent.
--------
Ron Lee
Tucson, Arizona
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MMO -- 1 % lard LOL
MMO == snake oil or close to it .
It is not the same as TCP. IT just a worthless additive.
Some will argue that it a "gotta have " but the rest of us get thousands of hours
>WITHOUT MMO
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
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| Subject: | Re: 6" gear extension |
look at my videos on youtube, and you will see what Larry it talking about. I
raise my tail on start of roll and then after 75 feet I hammer the taildown
and it takes a few feet before I get the wings flying. I have mentioned and asked
this forum about lengthening the main gear before and not much talk on it.
GladLarry finally got it done with favourabel results. I would like to make
a new set of gear higher by 6 to 10 " and get the higher AOA to cut Take off
roll further .
Just watch this and tell me how yor compares http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itqyBYxU0lU
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
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| Subject: | Need NSI Subaru Operating Limitations |
John, is yours the standard EA81 or the SHO version? Which book are you
using? Let me know and perhaps I can help.
Deke
----- Original Message -----
From: John W. Hart
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 4:57 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Need NSI Subaru Operating Limitations
Is anyone using a NSI Subaru (118hp) that would be willing to email me
a copy of their Engine Operating Limitations? I have the incorrect
engine book for my engine. I'd appreciate it very much.
Thanks,
John Hart
Kitfox Model IV
NSI Subaru Engine
Wilburton, OK
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| Subject: | Re: Need NSI Subaru Operating Limitations |
Do not archive
Let me know if Deke can not help and I might be able to do it. I have
the wrong ones for mine but they might be the right ones for you.
Albert Smith
MudLake, Id
5TD,NSIT,CAP
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| Subject: | Re: 6" gear extension |
> look at my videos on youtube, and you will see what Larry it talking about. I
raise my tail on start of roll and then after 75 feet I hammer the taildown and
it takes a few feet before I get the wings flying.
Lifting the tail at the beginning of the roll out is what I was trying to communicate.
I understand now how being able to increase your AOA on the ground at
the transition point is an advantage. But on the other hand, what's the advantage
of dropping the tail before you reach takeoff speed? Wouldn't it work better
if you wait until you actually reach take off speed and then drop the tail?
--------
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)
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| Subject: | Re: 6" gear extension |
> Just watch this and tell me how yours compares http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itqyBYxU0lU
Just took a look at the video. That's incredibly short. Looks like your tail comes
up as soon as you start rolling. Takes my model 4 about 2 seconds to get the
tail up and just under another 3 get get off the ground. Another thing I can't
do is hold the plane back with full throttle. Brakes are too week.
--------
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)
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| Subject: | Re: 6" gear extension |
By the way Dave, what model Kitfox is that?
--------
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)
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Well we are really getting somewhere now, we went from mostly Stoddard solvent
to less than 25% (at least thats the thinking) then we get the claim of last
resort "Its Snake Oil" that pretty much covers it when when ones an authority
on things, I put it in the same context as 2 stroke engines are a grenade with
the pin about 80% out.
--------
GB
MNFlyer
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| Subject: | Re: 6" gear extension |
Kitfox IV , empty weight 570s Engine over 400 hours now ( 3rd engine)
It's not just what you got , it is how you use it !!
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
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Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: cross winds concerns |
I would keep X winds at 90 degrees to 5 knots or less. This is where you
get to hone in your directional control skills. Once again look at my videos
and look landing on one wheel or take offs on one wheel. You should be competent
in being able to one wheel your airplane down the runway to show yourself
and instructor that you have good yaw authority
Some one wheel action here about 1 in 20 seconds into the movie http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=5j7aBw90n9U
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
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Message 30
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| Subject: | Need NSI Subaru Operating Limitations |
Deke,
I don't know for sure which version it is. It is normally aspirated. The
data plate on the aircraft lists the engine as 118 HP. The tach is redlined
at 6200 rpm. The guy I bought it from told me it was the 118 HP version.
The book I have lists RPM 5600 as max allowable engine speed, and max
continuous engine speed as 5500.
The engine uses the Ellison EFS-2 Throttle Body Injection instead of a
carburetor. Are there any other ways to determine which version engine I
have?
The manual I have has on the lower margin of each page the number
MA-EAE01-01. The engine model this book applies to is EA81-0981 Under the
"Description of Design" in Section 2.0
John Hart
Kitfox Model IV
NSI Subaru Engine
Wilburton, OK
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fox5flyer
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 5:03 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Need NSI Subaru Operating Limitations
John, is yours the standard EA81 or the SHO version? Which book are you
using? Let me know and perhaps I can help.
Deke
----- Original Message -----
From: John W. Hart <mailto:helili@chahtatushka.net>
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 4:57 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Need NSI Subaru Operating Limitations
Is anyone using a NSI Subaru (118hp) that would be willing to email me a
copy of their Engine Operating Limitations? I have the incorrect engine
book for my engine. I'd appreciate it very much.
Thanks,
John Hart
Kitfox Model IV
NSI Subaru Engine
Wilburton, OK
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: 6" gear extension |
What about Flapperon usage ?
You want to get weight from wheels to wings , then flapperon deployment will certainly
help you.
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
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| Subject: | Great Lakes kitfox Fly-In |
Great Lakes Kitfox Fly -In, When?Sunday May 11th,at 12:00
noon.,Where?Lake Field Airport.[CQA] Celina Ohio.we are having a BBQ
lunch,and after lunch.a BOMB Drop and SPOT Landing contest.And any pilot
Flying there KITFOX in to the FLY-In.there BBQ lunch is FREE.and if you
do not have a KITFOX fly in what ever you do have.All are welcome to the
Fly-In.This will be a fun day with your KITFOX family.You can not miss
us.just look at west central Ohio.look for the largest Lake in Ohio.and
that would be Grand Lake St.Marys.we are at the south west corner of the
lake.we all so have a Ohio State Float Plane Landing area on the north
side of lake .But we do not have a way to get from lake to airport.with
aircraft. CQA is home base for STEVE SHINABERY N554KF KF2
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Sun-N-Fun 2008: What are your plans? |
Taking a look at camping fees. If I understand it right aircraft camping is $100
between April 8 and April 13 even if you're only staying for one day. Is that
the same for UL/LSA camping?
--------
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)
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