---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 04/13/08: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:03 AM - Re: Re: Ethanol removal? (Michel Verheughe) 2. 02:18 AM - Re: Ethanol removal? (JC Propeller Design) 3. 02:21 AM - Re: Ethanol removal? (dave) 4. 05:15 AM - Re: Ethanol removal? (Noel Loveys) 5. 07:01 AM - Re: Ethanol removal? (JC Propeller Design) 6. 08:35 AM - Re: Re: Ethanol removal? (paul wilson) 7. 08:40 AM - Vixen Kit For Sale (Mike & Kathy Pfeifer) 8. 08:47 AM - Re: Re: Small Side window? (Cudnohufsky's) 9. 08:51 AM - Re: Cutting a windshield (Cudnohufsky's) 10. 08:57 AM - Re: Re: Ethanol removal? (Clint Bazzill) 11. 04:23 PM - alcohol in fuel - fiber glass tanks (droadrunner) 12. 07:14 PM - Re: Re: Ethanol removal? (Noel Loveys) 13. 09:25 PM - Re: Cutting a windshield (Guy Buchanan) 14. 09:25 PM - Re: Re: Small Side window? (Guy Buchanan) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:03:56 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Ethanol removal? > From: wingnut [wingnut@spamarrest.com] > A couple months after that, I started getting some crud from my gascolator > which turned out to be rust on the gascolator bowl. Luis, several years ago I had an old car which developed a hole in the fuel tank. Because it was already an old wreck, I decided to simply glassfiber the hole but I had first to empty the tank since it was leaking fuel. It was sub-zero temperature in winter Norway and it was interesting to see that the fuel I recuperated in a bucket had small ice balls in it. The water from condensation in the tank. The reason why my tank started to leak through the rusty hole that was forming at the tank's lowest point. I was then told that, in order to remove the water condensation from my tank I had to use once in a while "kondensfjaerner" (condensation remover) that is sold in all the petrol stations and that is simply ... ethanol. Once in the tank, it mixes with whatever water drops there is an is going through the engine with the rest of the fuel. The practice of adding "condense remover" to petrol is mostly done during the winter, here in Norway. Because another side effect of ice droplets in the fuel is that it can block the fuel line or carburettor and stop the engine. Disclaimer: I know very little about engines, I am merely telling what I experienced and what I have been told. :-) Cheers, Michel Verheughe Norway Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 do not archive
________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:18:14 AM PST US From: "JC Propeller Design" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol removal? Here in Sweden we have had AVGAS 92/96 UL unleaded for 25 years or more. We use it with 25% 100LL for the motorglider with Limbach (VW) engine Jan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave G." Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 2:44 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol removal? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Noel Loveys" > To: > Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 4:34 PM >> >> Best answer it to not use ethanol for fuel. >> > > I probably agree with what you wrote, ( I only scanned the list) But the > ethanol is in the mix and I've never seen a legislative assembly listen to > sense as carefully as they listen for the sound of money. That leaves us > with possibly ethanol contaminated road fuel and 100LL as practical > choices. I think learning to cope with one or the other as issued is the > best bet, simply can't see myself trying to wash the ethanol out of my > fuel. > > I'm under the impression that there is work going on trying to create a > lead free aviation fuel for GA, that should solve everybodys problems > except for price. > > > __________ NOD32 2838 (20080131) Information __________ > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:21:18 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Ethanol removal? From: "dave" Here is a article that I di find on ethanol, it is positive and cetainly tells you a bit about the gasoline, ethanol and how it works in auto engines. Dave Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada Flying Videos and Kitfox Info http://www.cfisher.com Like i continually say -- I have used thousands of gallons in my Kitfox gas, ethanol gas or what ever they sell me as regular gas and so far I have had ZERO issues. IF you have had issues with ethanol Let's hear about it , if not we seem to be beating a dead horse here? There's been a lot of questions about the use of ethanol blended fuels in the last couple of years and I have done some research into it. Here in Minnesota 10% ethanol has been mandatory for over two years and I have not seen any adverse problems to car engines due to it's use. First of all, what is ethanol? Fuel ethanol (or 'Gasohol') is a high octane, water-free alcohol produced from the fermentation of sugar or converted starch. It is traditionally used as a blending ingredient at 5% to 10% concentrations (termed E5 or E10, respectively) in gasoline or as a raw material to produce high octane fuel ether additives. Ethanol is made primarily from grains or other renewable agricultural and agroforestry feedstocks. Ethanol has been made since ancient times by the fermentation of sugars. All beverage ethanol and more than half of industrial ethanol is still made by this process. Simple sugars are the raw material. Zymase, an enzyme from yeast, changes the simple sugars into ethanol and carbon dioxide. If you use hops instead of corn, you get beer instead of fuel. The use of ethanol does provide some benefits. First of all it is renewable. The problem with crude oil is when it's gone, it's gone. No more, finished, kaput, finis. 1 acre corn = 300 gallons of Ethanol and 400 gallons of unneeded oil imports. Ethanol is made from corn and other grown grains and when was the last time you saw a year where there wasn't any corn around? Since it contains a high amount of oxygen it makes a car engine cleaner burning resulting in a cleaner environment for us to live in. Carbon dioxide emissions are lower thus reducing ground level ozone which people with respiratory problems will be the first to tell you is a problem. The emissions produced by burning ethanol are less reactive with sunlight than those produced by burning gasoline. This results in a lower potential for damaging the ozone layer. The use of ethanol reduces our dependance on imported oil and increases the market for farmers who grow the grains we use to produce ethanol. Now we can stop paying farmers not grow crops and use their excess production as fuel. Of course there are some by-products of ethanol production that have to be dealt with. By-products such as corn flour, corn oil, corn meal and corn grits. Other by-products are animal feeds such as Fibrotein TM, corn gluten meal and feed and certain amino acids. Carbon dioxide is another by-product in ethanol production and is used as a refrigerant and putting the fizz in our sodas. There are no waste products when ethanol is produced from corn. It is possible, with certain engine modifications, to run on pure ethanol. Brazil operates almost 50% of their vehicles on pure ethanol. A 10% blend requires no engine modifications at all. There is a very limited selection of vehicles offered by original equipment manufacturers that will run on 85% ethanol blended fuel. Car owners are concerned about what effects ethanol will have on their engines and fuel systems, a valid concern. Let me take this a step at a time. Ethanol As A Fuel New car warranties. Ethanol began being used in 1979 and auto manufactures did not address the use of ethanol blended fuels. Then when they began testing their vehicles with the new blended fuels, they were able to approve the use of the 10% ethanol blended fuels. Some went as far as to recommend the new blended fuels in their vehicles. Do I have to do anything to my engine to use a 10% ethanol fuel? All engines built from 1970 can use the 10% ethanol blended fuels with no problems or modifications. A carbureted engine may need an adjustment to take full advantage of the fuel. Will the new fuels work in a fuel injected engine? It sure will. At first you may need to change the fuel filter more often as the ethanol cleans out the fuel system, but once that is done fuel filter replacement will go back to normal. Ethanol can loosen contaminants and residues that have been deposited by previous gasoline fills. These can collect in the fuel filter. This problem has happened occasionally in older cars, and can easily be corrected by changing fuel filters. Since 1985 all ethanol blended fuels and most non-blended fuels have had detergents added to them to keep fuel injectors clean and prevent deposits that could clog them. Will adding a gas line anti-freeze cause problems? Gas line anti-freezes are made from ethanol, methanol or isopropyl alcohol to absorb water in the fuel and keep it from freezing. That one little bottle of gas line anti-freeze is about 0.3% of the volume of a full gas tank. With a 10% ethanol blended fuel, it's 10% so it will absorb a lot more water and you'll never have to worry about a frozen fuel line. Now you don't have to worry about buying it, keeping it in the trunk and adding it to the tank when you fill up. What about my valves? Not to worry, ethanol burns cooler than straight gasoline helping to keep the valves cool. This is the main reason that high powered racing engines burn straight alcohol. Will ethanol hurt my older engine designed for leaded gas? No. The concern about older engines came about because of the lead phase-out. Lead oxides that were formed during combustion provided a cushion that reduced wear on non-case-hardened valve seats. Therefore, it is the absence of lead, not the presence of ethanol, that is of concern. Why do some mechanics say not to use ethanol? A mechanic who says not to use ethanol does not have correct information. There is very little information available for mechanics on fuel formulation, so when there appears to be a fuel-related problem with an engine, some mechanics will immediately ask if ethanol has been used. The only reason ethanol is suspected is that in many states it is the only gasoline component other than lead that has an identifying label. In North Dakota, New Mexico, and Idaho, ethanol proponents have offered a $100 reward to any customer who can document damage from ethanol to his or her car, and so far no one has ever collected. Okay, what about my gas milage? At the very worst it will be very slight. Ethanol contains 97% of the energy that pure gasoline has. But because the combustion efficiency is increased, the slight reduction in energy content is compensated for. Most users will not notice the decrease, if any, and many people have reported an increase in fuel milage. Can I use it in my lawn mower? No, you'll have to stop mowing the lawn every week. Only kidding, I thought I saw a few people smile at that prospect. The answer is yes, you can use the 10% ethanol blended fuels anywhere you use regular unleaded fuel. It can be used in any lawn mower, snow plow, snowmobile, ATV and any other gas powered engine. There may be some carburetor adjustment needed, so always refer to your equipments owners manual before using it. Can I use it in diesel engine? No, Diesel fuel and ethanol don't mix. Besides which gasoline is an octane fuel while diesel fuel is a cetain fuel. Ethanol is a very safe fuel, if you spill it it will not contaminate the ground water. If you drink it, you'll get drunk. Although if you drink large quantities you will suffer liver damage. In fact, if you drink just about any alcoholic beverage, you're drinking ethanol in one form or another. I was hard pressed to find any down sides to the use of ethanol as a fuel. There are reports that the emissions of an ethanol burning engine can adversely effect plant life, but studies are still being conducted to prove or disprove this. Copyright 2000 - 2003 Vincent T. Ciulla All Rights Reserved -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada Flying Videos and Kitfox Info http://www.cfisher.com/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176510#176510 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:15:47 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol removal? I'm waiting for someone to come up with a treatment to remove the lead from 100LL. Using TCP may help with a four stroke but does nothing to prevent lead plating on the main bearings of a two stroke. If I could afford it I'd install a Diesel. They say the Smart (C) three cylinder turbo diesel can be chipped to produce 65 reliable horsepower at around the same weight as a 912. There are other auto Diesels in Europe that are around the 80 hp neighbourhood. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave G. Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 10:14 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol removal? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Noel Loveys" Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 4:34 PM > > Best answer it to not use ethanol for fuel. > I probably agree with what you wrote, ( I only scanned the list) But the ethanol is in the mix and I've never seen a legislative assembly listen to sense as carefully as they listen for the sound of money. That leaves us with possibly ethanol contaminated road fuel and 100LL as practical choices. I think learning to cope with one or the other as issued is the best bet, simply can't see myself trying to wash the ethanol out of my fuel. I'm under the impression that there is work going on trying to create a lead free aviation fuel for GA, that should solve everybodys problems except for price. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:01:03 AM PST US From: "JC Propeller Design" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol removal? The Coming Gemini 100 diesel 3cyl (6 piston) 75 kg/150Lb looks promising http://ppdgemini.com/ http://www.amtonline.com/publication/article.jsp?pubId=1&id=4434&page Num=1 Jan ----- Original Message ----- From: Noel Loveys To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 2:12 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol removal? I'm waiting for someone to come up with a treatment to remove the lead from 100LL. Using TCP may help with a four stroke but does nothing to prevent lead plating on the main bearings of a two stroke. If I could afford it I'd install a Diesel. They say the Smart (C) three cylinder turbo diesel can be chipped to produce 65 reliable horsepower at around the same weight as a 912. There are other auto Diesels in Europe that are around the 80 hp neighbourhood. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave G. Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 10:14 PM To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol removal? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Noel Loveys" To: Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 4:34 PM > > Best answer it to not use ethanol for fuel. > I probably agree with what you wrote, ( I only scanned the list) But the ethanol is in the mix and I've never seen a legislative assembly listen to sense as carefully as they listen for the sound of money. That leaves us with possibly ethanol contaminated road fuel and 100LL as practical choices. I think learning to cope with one or the other as issued is the best bet, simply can't see myself trying to wash the ethanol out of my fuel. I'm under the impression that there is work going on trying to create a lead free aviation fuel for GA, that should solve everybodys problems except for price. to browse Un/Subscription, Browse, Chat, FAQ, more: http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List Web Forums! http://forums.matronics.com support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. http://www.matronics.com/contribution __________ NOD32 2838 (20080131) Information __________ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:35:58 AM PST US From: paul wilson Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Ethanol removal? Clint, You are very fortunate. Its not the mil spec hoses you use that save the bacon, but that you buy your auto fuel in a region that does not use the additives that eat/dissolve the mil spec hoses. And if you travel across the country you are bound to get the undesirable fuel. But then a small amount of the bad stuff probably is not a big deal. It the continuous wetting of the hoses that is an issue. I did a test with the mil hoses that came with the kit by submerging samples in the local fuel here in n-CO and after 2 years I saw no issues but others did the same test with their local fuel and the hoses swelled and deteriorated significantly. Paul ================ At 09:26 PM 4/12/2008, you wrote: >You must be using a different mil spec fuel line then mine. Just >put in 2 new shut off valves, fuel line removed you couldn't tell >from new. 1313 hours > >Clint ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:40:59 AM PST US From: "Mike & Kathy Pfeifer" Subject: Kitfox-List: Vixen Kit For Sale For Sale Kitfox Vixen Kit This is a partially complete Series 5, tri-gear, purchased in early 1995 with a few factory upgrades/options included such as a fully powdered coated (light blue) fuselage, tail structure and wing struts which is essentially all the steel parts of the airframe, dual adjustable rudder pedals, dual brakes and upper/lower false wing ribs. The original cost was just under $15K and since then I have added a few things such as a second fuel tank (now has a total of 26 gal), a strengthened nose wheel strut as a result of a service bulletin, stainless steel firewall, custom throttle quadrant (this is related to a dual carb engine), low fuel sensor system, dual Facet fuel pumps and associated wing tank plumbing and filters, a used fiberglass engine cowling, sound proofing material and some miscellaneous hardware. I have kept a log of my build activities along with a number of photographs detailing the construction. The kit has been assembled according to the factory supplied instructions and with the exception of installing the necessary wiring for instruments, lights, strobes etc. is generally ready for fabric covering. All the necessary Poly Fiber covering fabric is part of the kit along with Poly-Tak cement, Poly-Brush and Poly Spray coatings, however, these are now over ten years old and while there is no shelf-life specified, a sample covering job should be done to confirm their continued viability. I also have new in the box an ICOM IC-A200 radio and an Ameri-King AK_450 ELT. If any one is interested please contact me via e-mail at mkmbt@comcast.net or via phone at 303-770-1953. This kit is located in the Denver, Colorado area. Michael Pfeifer ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:47:20 AM PST US From: "Cudnohufsky's" <7suds@Chartermi.net> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Small Side window? Guy, Too late, all the glass is in, but just out of curiosity, how did you shade them? My turtle deck was already shaded but the main windscreen is clear, door glass is shaded. Lloyd -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 5:53 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Small Side window? At 09:03 AM 4/12/2008, you wrote: >I am re-building a 5 now and am putting >in as much window as I can, full Lexan doors, full Lexan turtle deck cover >and small windows. Lloyd, Don't forget to shade the skylight and turtledeck before installation. I wish I had. Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:51:15 AM PST US From: "Cudnohufsky's" <7suds@Chartermi.net> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Cutting a windshield All, My experience is that the LP Aeroplastics will shatter if you try to cut with snips at any thickness, the Lexan and Plexi I have cut with snips, you still need to sand the edges because you will still get very slight crazing on the edge from the snip cut. Lloyd -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 6:17 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Cutting a windshield The Kitfox windshield from LP Aeroplastics is about 1/8" thick, and I wouldn't even try to go after that with snips. The thinner stuff might handle snipping, but the thicker stuff...at least the windshield that I have wouldn't tolerate it. Are you talking about material that is 1/8" thick or the stuff that Skystar sold as windshield material and is only .093" thick or thinner, with the name Hyzod on the protective covering? Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/487+ hrs/down for annual On Apr 12, 2008, at 5:52 PM, Dee Young wrote: > I have read mean posts about the cutting of Plexiglas and > polycarbonate for windshields. I have cut two windshields, one from > each of they materials for my Model II, both of which were cut > with a good set of tin snips. I over cut, then trimmed and cleaned > up the edges and corners with mill file. I have no crazing or > cracking at the wing root or any other problems with this process. > Its done quickly and easily. > > Dee Young > Model II > N345DY > > Do not archive > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List_- > ============================================================ _- > forums.matronics.com_- > ============================================================ _- > contribution_- > =========================================================== ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:57:51 AM PST US From: Clint Bazzill Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Ethanol removal? That could very well be the problem. I only use Chevron High Test fuel if auto gas is used. Other then that 100 High Lead avation type. Am going to replace the fuel line next condition inspection, not quite sure what fuel line to use. Nothing will be any better then what I have been using. At l east up to this point. Clint ate: Sun, 13 Apr 2008 09:29:23 -0600> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com> From: pwmac@sisna.com> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Ethanol removal?> > --> Kitf ox-List message posted by: paul wilson > > Clint,> You are very fortunate. Its not the mil spec hoses you use that save > the bacon, but that you buy your auto fuel in a region that does not > use the additiv es that eat/dissolve the mil spec hoses. And if you > travel across the cou ntry you are bound to get the undesirable fuel. > But then a small amount o f the bad stuff probably is not a big deal. > It the continuous wetting of the hoses that is an issue. I did a test > with the mil hoses that came wit h the kit by submerging samples in > the local fuel here in n-CO and after 2 years I saw no issues but > others did the same test with their local fue l and the hoses swelled > and deteriorated significantly.> Paul> === ==============> At 09:26 PM 4/12/2008, you wrot e:> >You must be using a different mil spec fuel line then mine. Just > >pu t in 2 new shut off valves, fuel line removed you couldn't tell > >from new ==========> > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:23:30 PM PST US From: droadrunner Subject: Kitfox-List: alcohol in fuel - fiber glass tanks Last summer I stopped at the Kitfox factory while considering the purchase of a new kit and the issue of the tanks with ethanol came up. I was told at that time that they planned to take a tank and fill it with pure alcohol to see what effect it would have? Anyone know if it happened and/or the results of the factory test? Marlin __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:14:27 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Ethanol removal? Line by line discussion coming up! First of all, what is ethanol? Fuel ethanol (or 'Gasohol') is a high octane, water-free alcohol produced from the fermentation of sugar or converted starch. It is traditionally used as a blending ingredient at 5% to 10% concentrations (termed E5 or E10, respectively) in gasoline or as a raw material to produce high octane fuel ether additives. Ethanol is made primarily from grains or other renewable agricultural and agroforestry feedstocks. The octane rating of ethanol is around 116 as for water free only immediately after it has been distilledif it is sealed from moisture in the air which it will absorb like a sponge. It is made form feed stocks that is why the cost of food in the past six months has skyrocketed. Ethanol has been made since ancient times by the fermentation of sugars. All beverage ethanol and more than half of industrial ethanol is still made by this process. Simple sugars are the raw material. Zymase, an enzyme from yeast, changes the simple sugars into ethanol and carbon dioxide. If you use hops instead of corn, you get beer instead of fuel. Making a good beer is a bit harder than that... The use of ethanol does provide some benefits. First of all it is renewable. The problem with crude oil is when it's gone, it's gone. No more, finished, kaput, finis. 1 acre corn = 300 gallons of Ethanol and 400 gallons of unneeded oil imports. Ethanol is made from corn and other grown grains and when was the last time you saw a year where there wasn't any corn around? Since it contains a high amount of oxygen it makes a car engine cleaner burning resulting in a cleaner environment for us to live in. Carbon dioxide emissions are lower thus reducing ground level ozone which people with respiratory problems will be the first to tell you is a problem. I acre of corn may produce 300 gallons of ethanol but to get that you will use the 400 gallons plus of fossil fuel. 300 gallons of ethanol will only have the BTUs of less than 200 gallons of gas and less than 100 gallons of diesel fuel. Yes the car engine does run cleaner but CO2 is still given off in the fermentation process add that to the carbon and benzene derivatives given off when ethanol is burned and then add the exhaust particles fot he fuel used to produce the ethanol and it=92s anything but clean. In fact it=92s just about the most filthy poisonous stuff legal to spew around. The benxe3ne derivatives given off when ethanol burns are far more devastating to the ozone levels , low and high, than the same concentrations of CO2. The emissions produced by burning ethanol are less reactive with sunlight than those produced by burning gasoline. This results in a lower potential for damaging the ozone layer. The use of ethanol reduces our dependance on imported oil and increases the market for farmers who grow the grains we use to produce ethanol. Now we can stop paying farmers not grow crops and use their excess production as fuel. It probably is less reactive with sunlight because it doesn=92t need to react with sunlight to eat ozone. The result is a much higher level of damage to the ozone layers. Because it requires so much fossil fuel to manufacture a gallon of ethanol it actually compounds the oil problem by increasing our dependence on fossil fuel. Now we get to the crux of the matter it is a way the government can do cash injections to farmers by increasing the demand, ergo the price of their crops. I don=92t blame them for liking and supporting the idea of ethanol fuel even though they know it=92s not true. Unfortunately it=92s not the 4excess production going into ethanol production... The excess production is now finding its way to our tables. Of course there are some by-products of ethanol production that have to be dealt with. By-products such as corn flour, corn oil, corn meal and corn grits. Other by-products are animal feeds such as Fibrotein TM, corn gluten meal and feed and certain amino acids. Carbon dioxide is another by-product in ethanol production and is used as a refrigerant and putting the fizz in our sodas. There are no waste products when ethanol is produced from corn. Just how much pop can you drink?? A short while ago somebody brought this up to me so I checked it out. It=92s all true! BUT... These amino acids they talk about are what most of us call steroids... The same steroids we are trying to avoid in our steaks, the same steroids the producers should have to eat themselves before giving it to unsuspecting farm animals whose lives are made more painful and shortened. Natural Corn flour and corn oil are removed in the permantatiuon process leaving what the beer makers call grouts. I won=92t comment on CO2 as a refrigerant.... This is the first time I=92ve heard this. I hope it=92s true. It is possible, with certain engine modifications, to run on pure ethanol. Brazil operates almost 50% of their vehicles on pure ethanol. A 10% blend requires no engine modifications at all. There is a very limited selection of vehicles offered by original equipment manufacturers that will run on 85% ethanol blended fuel. Brazil produces almost all its ethanol on excess crops... They still have the problems of the benzene derivatives produced when ethanol is burned.. Given the choice of the table or the tank I=92ll bet they put their crops on the table. Car owners are concerned about what effects ethanol will have on their engines and fuel systems, a valid concern. Let me take this a step at a time. Ethanol As A Fuel New car warranties. Ethanol began being used in 1979 and auto manufactures did not address the use of ethanol blended fuels. Then when they began testing their vehicles with the new blended fuels, they were able to approve the use of the 10% ethanol blended fuels. Some went as far as to recommend the new blended fuels in their vehicles. Problem is when ethanol eats out car components, eventually it will, the manufacturer make more money replacing the parts. A good reason to stay as far from ethanol on the ground as possible. Do I have to do anything to my engine to use a 10% ethanol fuel? All engines built from 1970 can use the 10% ethanol blended fuels with no problems or modifications. A carbureted engine may need an adjustment to take full advantage of the fuel. Because there is so much less power in ethanol compared to gasoline the engine will have to be tuned much richer. The one good point is because ethanol has an RON of 116 your engine probably won=92t ping as the fuel eats its gut out. Will the new fuels work in a fuel injected engine? It sure will. At first you may need to change the fuel filter more often as the ethanol cleans out the fuel system, but once that is done fuel filter replacement will go back to normal. Bull feathers ! Once the loose crud is released, because ethanol is so corrosive, and caught in the filters the rest of the parts that are being corroded will pass right through the filters. If one has to use ethanol. I mean really, really, has to use ethanol then fuel injection is how it should be done. In aircraft add a fuel system pressurized with nitrogen to keep the crap from absorbing water out of the air while on the ground. Ethanol can loosen contaminants and residues that have been deposited by previous gasoline fills. These can collect in the fuel filter. This problem has happened occasionally in older cars, and can easily be corrected by changing fuel filters. Since 1985 all ethanol blended fuels and most non-blended fuels have had detergents added to them to keep fuel injectors clean and prevent deposits that could clog them. After that the ethanol will just start to eat your; fuel tank, fuel pump, fuel lines, FUEL FILTER, injection pump and injectors. I forgot to mention what it will do to your fuel gauge. Will adding a gas line anti-freeze cause problems? Gas line anti-freezes are made from ethanol, methanol or isopropyl alcohol to absorb water in the fuel and keep it from freezing. That one little bottle of gas line anti-freeze is about 0.3% of the volume of a full gas tank. With a 10% ethanol blended fuel, it's 10% so it will absorb a lot more water and you'll never have to worry about a frozen fuel line. Now you don't have to worry about buying it, keeping it in the trunk and adding it to the tank when you fill up. So true. Now all you have to worry about is a phase separation which can occur, especially in humid climes when the temperature drops.. Let=92s not talk about what happens to your dirt cheap injector pump an injectors when water gets into them. Can anyone say pressurized fuel system starting at the distillery. What about my valves? Not to worry, ethanol burns cooler than straight gasoline helping to keep the valves cool. This is the main reason that high powered racing engines burn straight alcohol. Racing authorities mandating/requiring the use of ethanol in an attempt to restrict po9st crash explosions had not a darn thing to do with its use! That=92s my story and I=92ll stick to it. Now you can see people burn in flames you cannot see... Great stuff to have on the highway. Will ethanol hurt my older engine designed for leaded gas? No. The concern about older engines came about because of the lead phase-out. Lead oxides that were formed during combustion provided a cushion that reduced wear on non-case-hardened valve seats. Therefore, it is the absence of lead, not the presence of ethanol, that is of concern. Finally a point I have not one issue with. Why do some mechanics say not to use ethanol? A mechanic who says not to use ethanol does not have correct information. There is very little information available for mechanics on fuel formulation, so when there appears to be a fuel-related problem with an engine, some mechanics will immediately ask if ethanol has been used. The only reason ethanol is suspected is that in many states it is the only gasoline component other than lead that has an identifying label. In North Dakota, New Mexico, and Idaho, ethanol proponents have offered a $100 reward to any customer who can document damage from ethanol to his or her car, and so far no one has ever collected. The mechanic who advises you not to use ethanol is HONEST. He is smart enough to see the truth regardless of what the spin doctors say. Ethanol will have a lot more effect on your car than a daily cigar will have on your health... and we all know cigars are not good for your heath. No one ever will because the spin doctors will always credit other factors with the damage ethanol does. I note they don=92t address the damage it does to the atmosphere even before its burned. Okay, what about my gas milage? At the very worst it will be very slight. Ethanol contains 97% of the energy that pure gasoline has. But because the combustion efficiency is increased, the slight reduction in energy content is compensated for. Most users will not notice the decrease, if any, and many people have reported an increase in fuel milage. Obviously there is a type-o error here it=92s not 97% but closer to 67% ( actually lower than that) adding 10 % to your perfectly good gas will reduce your mileage, all else equal, around 20%. I know I=92d notice that for sure. There are two ways I can see a slight mileage decrease; Your engine has bee detonating all over the place.. Ethanol because it has a RON of around 116 will actually allow your engine to run smoother and therefore more efficiently possibly increasing fuel mileage until bits and pieces of your engine are consumed. Your name is Jethro Bodine and you ciphering at grade six level has damaged a few brain cells.... Can I use it in my lawn mower? No, you'll have to stop mowing the lawn every week. Only kidding, I thought I saw a few people smile at that prospect. The answer is yes, you can use the 10% ethanol blended fuels anywhere you use regular unleaded fuel. It can be used in any lawn mower, snow plow, snowmobile, ATV and any other gas powered engine. There may be some carburetor adjustment needed, so always refer to your equipments owners manual before using it. Interesting that the descendants of Monsieur Armand Bombardier allow but do not recommend the use of up to 10% ethanol in any of the equipment they manufacture. Can I use it in diesel engine? No, Diesel fuel and ethanol don't mix. Besides which gasoline is an octane fuel while diesel fuel is a cetain fuel. The whole idea of a Diesel engine is it can be made to run on any fuel. It can be made to run on wood chips if you want and it most certainly can be made to run on ethanol... up to the point the ethanol eats the engine. I thought military turbine fuel was kerosene laced with ethanol to make it flow at the cold temps encountered at altitude. I better look that one up. Ethanol is a very safe fuel, if you spill it it will not contaminate the ground water. If you drink it, you'll get drunk. Although if you drink large quantities you will suffer liver damage. In fact, if you drink just about any alcoholic beverage, you're drinking ethanol in one form or another. I was hard pressed to find any down sides to the use of ethanol as a fuel. There are reports that the emissions of an ethanol burning engine can adversely effect plant life, but studies are still being conducted to prove or disprove this. Ethanol is an organic compound. I=92m not sure if it will contaminate ground water but it will kill just about anything it comes in contact with. Just try an ounce or so on your wife=92s prize rosebush. Better not, you=92ll just be adding to the dangers of ethanol. As for drinking the stuff that you get from the gas station you can=92t even distil the eth out of it. They have a compound in the ethanol that distils at the same temperature. That compound will make you very sick. Copyright =C2=A9 2000 - 2003 Vincent T. Ciulla All Rights Reserved I claim no copyright to my opinions and ideas. The truth actually belongs to all of us. Please feel free spread it around. Don=92t believe what I=92ve said here. Check it out for yourself. I=92ve said it before and I=92ll say it again. We have a problem with fossil fuels. Ethanol is NOT the answer... it=92s a decoy leading us from finding a real viable answer. -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada Flying Videos and Kitfox Info http://www.cfisher.com/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176510#176510 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:25:59 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Cutting a windshield At 08:48 AM 4/13/2008, you wrote: >My experience is that the LP Aeroplastics will shatter if you try to cut >with snips at any thickness, the Lexan and Plexi I have cut with snips, you >still need to sand the edges because you will still get very slight crazing >on the edge from the snip cut. I know this is in the archives but I'll repeat quickly. I used a diamond Dremel wheel to cut, then 60, then 220, then 400, then TCP polish with a Dremel buffing wheel. Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:25:59 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Small Side window? At 08:44 AM 4/13/2008, you wrote: >Too late, all the glass is in, but just out of curiosity, how did you shade >them? My turtle deck was already shaded but the main windscreen is clear, >door glass is shaded. Mine isn't, that's why I suggested it. I fly in my own little microwave oven. I have to admit it's nice in the winter, however. When I replace my window I'll take it to the guys that did my car. They put a rather permanent coating on the windows that blocked 97% of the UV without blocking much of the light. It works and has lasted six years without visible degradation. I don't know their process. Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.