---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 04/16/08: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:38 AM - Re: OFF TOPIC taildraggers poem (Lynn Matteson) 2. 04:05 AM - Re: Geo power - Was Got your attention (Beemer) 3. 04:09 AM - KF2 Bungie connections (fox5flyer) 4. 07:01 AM - Re: KF2 Bungie connections (Tom Jones) 5. 07:24 AM - Re: Re: KF2 Bungie connections (fox5flyer) 6. 07:52 AM - Re: Re: Geo power - Was Got your attention (Guy Buchanan) 7. 08:04 AM - Re: Re: KF2 Bungie connections (fox5flyer) 8. 01:49 PM - Re: Geo power - Was Got your attention (Beemer) 9. 05:32 PM - Re: Re: KF2 Bungie connections (tc9008@aol.com) 10. 05:36 PM - Re: Re: KF2 Bungie connections (tc9008@aol.com) 11. 05:36 PM - Re: Re: Geo power - Was Got your attention (kirk hull) 12. 05:37 PM - Re: Re: Geo power - Was Got your attention (steve shinabery) 13. 05:48 PM - Re: Re: KF2 Bungie connections (Sbennett3@aol.com) 14. 08:12 PM - Life Insurance (Dan Billingsley) 15. 08:24 PM - Picked up new Kitfox 4 today (Jim_and_Lucy Chuk) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:38:32 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: OFF TOPIC taildraggers poem Yes, someone pointed it out earlier....thanks for the followup. Lynn Matteson Grass Lake, Michigan Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 flying w/490+ hrs do not archive On Apr 15, 2008, at 9:45 PM, wrote: > > Did you ever get your tail dragger poem? > > On Thu Mar 27 16:21 , Lynn Matteson sent: > >> >> Does anybody out there have the Taildraggers Poem handy? I have it in >> print form, but can't get my #&^%$#@!**&~ OCR to work so I can >> send it out to a new taildragger student. I'm sure he would love to >> read this poem, so if anybody can post it, I'd appreciate it. >> If not, I'll have to get my neighbor to scan my copy and post it. >> Thanks.... >> >> >> Lynn Matteson >> Grass Lake, Michigan >> Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 >> flying w/480+ hrs/down for annual >> do not archive >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:05:54 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Geo power - Was Got your attention From: "Beemer" I am sort of hesitant to claim victory too loudly as of yet. I don't have that much time on it, and while it is mounted successfully, and runs well and I'm flying, it doesn't yet prove anything. I don't have enough time to be convincing. I too, looked for a 582 replacement. I searched everything I could find: VW's, HKS, etc. Same process we all go through I guess. I blew off the Geo at first, mainly because of listening to a few folks who formed an opinion not based on the facts. Oh well, the Geo became the engine that kept fitting my needs and goals for the airplane. Besides, I promised my wife I wouldn't bust the bank if she LET me get an airplane. Remember, mine is a Model 2, so the basic airframe is smaller and lighter. I don't think the Model 4 would do so well with the 3 cylinder, as it is bigger and more capable. That airframe would perform best with more horsepower. I bought a Model 3 kit because of the higher allowable gross weight. With the M2 at the stock 950lbs and the heavy Geo, I basically turned it into a single person airplane. Well, I hate flying alone, so the extra 100lbs will be perfect I think. It isn't plug and play, for sure. I cursed many things during the process, but in hindsight, most of that was normal teething issues of doing something different, effectively for the first time. There's not many KF/Geo examples out there to research. I broke new ground. I am also very hampered with poor local talent in things like welding and machining. There just aren't any craftsman and artists around anymore. I suppose it's fallout of living in a disposable society. Well, it's been fun, and I'm enjoying the tinkering. Bradley -------- Beemer KF2 (and now an M3!) Middle Georgia Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=177149#177149 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:09:20 AM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Kitfox-List: KF2 Bungie connections I received a private email from a Kitfox 2 owner looking for some advice in installing new bungies. He already has the factory new units, but he's having trouble with the configuration of them and not sure how they're connected. What he has is two attach points directly opposite each other, then another underneath a few inches outboard facing down that is perpendicular to the others. Can someone explain the connections to me or maybe email me a copy of the appropriate page so I can pass it on to him? Would appreciate it. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:01:58 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: KF2 Bungie connections From: "Tom Jones" Deke, That sounds like it is the same bungee installation system as the Model 4. if you would like that, email me. I can't seem to figure out how to find member emails on here. nahsikhs@elltel.net -------- Tom Jones Classic IV 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp Ellensburg, WA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=177180#177180 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:24:16 AM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: KF2 Bungie connections Thanks Tom. I replied to you offlist. Deke do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Jones" Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 9:58 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: KF2 Bungie connections > > Deke, > That sounds like it is the same bungee installation system as the Model 4. > if you would like that, email me. I can't seem to figure out how to find > member emails on here. > nahsikhs@elltel.net > > -------- > Tom Jones > Classic IV > 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp > Ellensburg, WA > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=177180#177180 > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:52:09 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Geo power - Was Got your attention At 04:02 AM 4/16/2008, you wrote: >I bought a Model 3 kit because of the higher allowable gross weight. >With the M2 at the stock 950lbs and the heavy Geo, I basically >turned it into a single person airplane. Well, I hate flying alone, >so the extra 100lbs will be perfect I think. Bradley, On your previous email you said it was 50-70 pounds heavier, but the all up weight was the same. What do you mean by that? Are you offsetting the fuel? Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:04:18 AM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: KF2 Bungie connections Thanks Tom. Got the pages just fine and I'll pass them on. Mark will be very happy. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Jones" Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 9:58 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: KF2 Bungie connections > > Deke, > That sounds like it is the same bungee installation system as the Model 4. > if you would like that, email me. I can't seem to figure out how to find > member emails on here. > nahsikhs@elltel.net > > -------- > Tom Jones > Classic IV > 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp > Ellensburg, WA > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=177180#177180 > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:49:23 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Geo power - Was Got your attention From: "Beemer" Yes, exactly. The G10 burns exactly half that of a 582. This makes sense, considering equivalent hp, and 4 stroke vs. 2. So, instead of carrying 20 gallons of premium Unleaded, you get the same endurance from only 10 gallons of regular unleaded. Hence, a theoretical savings of about 70lbs (at least on my bird and the way I've been flying it). Now, imagine if you have dual 13 gallon wing tanks. You could fill them up, and fly for over 12 HOURS before hitting a gas station. Don't know about you, but I'd think provision for in-flight bladder relief would then be my main concern. My new M3 will have two 6 gallon wing tanks, with lockers outboard. No sense in lugging 6 jerry cans out to the hanger, when two will do. Other small benefit - the 1.5 gallon AL header tank is now legal for VFR fuel reserves all by itself. You can fly the wing tanks completely dry, and be legal. I installed a level light in mine, so that when that light goes off, I'm done (and still legal). Bradley -------- Beemer KF2 (and now an M3!) Middle Georgia Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=177262#177262 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:32:53 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: KF2 Bungie connections From: tc9008@aol.com I will be changing mine on a 4. Please send the instructions also Travis -----Original Message----- From: fox5flyer Sent: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 10:56 am Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: KF2 Bungie connections ? Thanks Tom. Got the pages just fine and I'll pass them on. Mark will be very happy.? ? Deke Morisse? Mikado Michigan? S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT? "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."? - Joseph Joubert? ? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Jones" ? Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 9:58 AM? Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: KF2 Bungie connections? ? >? > Deke,? > That sounds like it is the same bungee installation system as the Model 4. > if you would like that, email me. I can't seem to figure out how to find > member emails on here.? > nahsikhs@elltel.net? >? > --------? > Tom Jones? > Classic IV? > 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp? > Ellensburg, WA? >? >? >? >? > Read this topic online here:? >? > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=177180#177180? >? >? >? >? >? >? >? >? >? > ? ? ? ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:36:22 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: KF2 Bungie connections From: tc9008@aol.com I will be changing mine on a 4. Please send the instructions also Travis -----Original Message----- From: fox5flyer Sent: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 10:56 am Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: KF2 Bungie connections ? Thanks Tom. Got the pages just fine and I'll pass them on. Mark will be very happy.? ? Deke Morisse? Mikado Michigan? S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT? "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."? - Joseph Joubert? ? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Jones" ? Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 9:58 AM? Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: KF2 Bungie connections? ? >? > Deke,? > That sounds like it is the same bungee installation system as the Model 4. > if you would like that, email me. I can't seem to figure out how to find > member emails on here.? > nahsikhs@elltel.net? >? > --------? > Tom Jones? > Classic IV? > 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp? > Ellensburg, WA? >? >? >? >? > Read this topic online here:? >? > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=177180#177180? >? >? >? >? >? >? >? >? >? > ? ? ? ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:36:42 PM PST US From: "kirk hull" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Geo power - Was Got your attention All I have to sat is my Subaru runs great , has more horse power & torque and cost about half as much as a rotax including the stratus conversion. But to each his own _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 9:40 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Geo power - Was Got your attention I respectfully disagree, Bradley. I think there are some of us here who fly behind 582's that are anxious to hear about proven alternatives. I love the 582's performance but for my part, I'm weary of Rotax prices and have been searching for an affordable alternative with lower fuel consumption and higher TBO. These are "experimental" aircraft afterall. Please keep us posted on your progress, and don't let flaming contrary opinions deter you. As the wise man once said, "opinions are like a------s, everybody's got one but no one's is better than yours." ;-) beemer wrote: Folks, I have a paper I wrote extolling the virtues of the Geo, but it is not appropriate for posting to this forum. Besides, it's very one-sided and opinionated, albeit absolutely truthful. It'd make someone upset. Suffice it to say, the Geo is an excellent alternative to the 582. I don't believe Model 4 flyers will do much better than the 912, but a Turbo G13 four-cylinder would certainly work if you want it to. Some facts about the Geo install - initially it will nickel and dime you to death. Mainly because I bought 50 things before I found one that worked well. I'd love to put together a Kitfox install kit, but there just isn't enough interest for that. After the initial installation, it will cost you next to nothing. Case in point: I just bought a third engine core locally for $100. A complete rebuild kit (new parts only) costs $300. Machining and inspection will run another $100-$300. Add a good 5-angle valve job, a performance cam, SS valves, and a crank scraper, and you're out another $400 (but get 70hp from it). Do a mild porting job at home, put it together yourself, shell out $2K- $3K for the reduction drive (or adapt a Rotax E-box!) and you're in business. 4gph on takeoff, 2gph in cruise. My M2 climbs out and cruises at 582 numbers. The 3 cylinder vibrates just as much at cruise, but start and shut-down are much better. I hear the 4 cylinder G13 is smooth as glass, but it'! s too long for my M2 without cowl re-work. It's got 20 more hp, tho'. In all fairness, now the bad: You won't get insurance. You wont get your money back out of it if you sell. It will weigh 50-70lbs more than the 582 (albeit the all-up flying weight will be the same). Your battery will have to go to the tail (meaning cover job and paint). From my experience, local talent at machining these is nowhere to be found. Be prepared to ride your machinist's A$$ all the way, as this ain't your dad's Chevy, and Chevy clearances won't work. If you're not comfortable flying 1000hrs on one (even though it'll do it easily), then buy a second core and build it up as a spare for $800, and pickle it. Change motors at every annual (I can drop mine, and re-install in 2 hours), and keep a waiting spare. Like I said, once the initial expense is done, you're flying on the cheap from there on out. I hope to have a web site explaining more, but I'm horrible at it, and time is better spent flying, ya' know? Meanwhile I'll invite you to join the Yahoo Geo list (lists, as there's two), and lurk around for more info. Feel free to ask questions. Most guys are very helpful over there with information. Also, feel free to email me directly, I'll be as helpful as I can. Remember the Kitfox forum isn't really the proper place to discuss alternative engines (I'm ok with that). Bradley -------- Beemer KF2 Read this topic online _____ Be a better friend, newshound, and ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:37:11 PM PST US From: steve shinabery Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Geo power - Was Got your attention Beemer wrote: > > I am sort of hesitant to claim victory too loudly as of yet. I don't have that much time on it, and while it is mounted successfully, and runs well and I'm flying, it doesn't yet prove anything. I don't have enough time to be convincing. > > I too, looked for a 582 replacement. I searched everything I could find: VW's, HKS, etc. Same process we all go through I guess. I blew off the Geo at first, mainly because of listening to a few folks who formed an opinion not based on the facts. Oh well, the Geo became the engine that kept fitting my needs and goals for the airplane. Besides, I promised my wife I wouldn't bust the bank if she LET me get an airplane. > > Remember, mine is a Model 2, so the basic airframe is smaller and lighter. I don't think the Model 4 would do so well with the 3 cylinder, as it is bigger and more capable. That airframe would perform best with more horsepower. > > I bought a Model 3 kit because of the higher allowable gross weight. With the M2 at the stock 950lbs and the heavy Geo, I basically turned it into a single person airplane. Well, I hate flying alone, so the extra 100lbs will be perfect I think. > > It isn't plug and play, for sure. I cursed many things during the process, but in hindsight, most of that was normal teething issues of doing something different, effectively for the first time. There's not many KF/Geo examples out there to research. I broke new ground. I am also very hampered with poor local talent in things like welding and machining. There just aren't any craftsman and artists around anymore. I suppose it's fallout of living in a disposable society. > > Well, it's been fun, and I'm enjoying the tinkering. > Bradley > > -------- > Beemer > KF2 (and now an M3!) > Middle Georgia > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=177149#177149 > > > Beemer,,do not feel bad for your self,,you are doing some thing alot of us only dream of doing.we are all looking for the idea set up of different engines.and you have a flying example of what you have dreamed of.and at a cost savings of money..and cheap to fly behind...dont give up,,,and keep doing what you have been doing..find a cheaper way of doing things.and doing what we all love to do..is FLY,,,STEVE SHINABERY N554KF KF2 with the little mighty 582 Thanks Beemer ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:48:06 PM PST US From: Sbennett3@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: KF2 Bungie connections I have brand new ones in a box for my classic 4 Can I also get some directions... Thanks in advance. Steve Bennett **************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:12:28 PM PST US From: Dan Billingsley Subject: Kitfox-List: Life Insurance Recently my wife and I applied for life insurance and it was with a company that is reputable (Met Life) yet not one I would call pilot savy. The sales rep had to do quite a bit of research in order to come up with answers, however, we were approved as pilot and passenger after the whole thing was over. I thought I would put this question out to the Kitfox community as I'm sure there is a plethera of experience to draw from here, so... Has anyone ever shopped between a company that "specializes" in pilot insurance and one like I mentioned (not pilot savy) and found significant differences in policy premiums? ie...is it worth the time involved to shop? Thanks in advance Dan B Mesa, AZ KF-IV Building ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:24:47 PM PST US From: Jim_and_Lucy Chuk Subject: Kitfox-List: Picked up new Kitfox 4 today Hi all, Well I went and got the Kitfox 4 today that I bought on ebay on Su nday. Haven't slept very well the last few nights because I didn't know f or sure what I had bought. I woke up this morning at 5:30 even though I di dn't have to leave till 8:30. Well I'll sleep good tonight. Looks like ev ery thing is just fine with the plane so far. I have to get the wings tomorrow. One thing I would like to mention, is th at if anyone is thinking of changeing out their 582 to a fourstroke, or the ir 80 HP Rotax to a 100 HP Rotax, give me a shout. I will eventually be ne eding an engine, motor mount and cowl for the plane, but I'm not in any big rush either. I do have a 582 muffler and radiator allready for a Kitfox, but would rather go in the direction of a 4 stroke. Actually, I half wish I hadn't sold my 582, mount and cowl for the Avid when I put the Jabiru on it, I might have put it back on the Avid and used the Jabiru in the Fox. I have the Avid to fly while I build this plane so when I can't do one, I can do the other. Thanks for listening, Jim Chuk Avids, and Kitfox 4 Mn Get the MapQuest Toolbar, Maps, Traffic, Directions & More! _________________________________________________________________ Get in touch in an instant. 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