Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:15 AM - Kitfox Classic IV for sale (flier)
2. 08:13 AM - Re: Series 5 Light Sport (Michfox5)
3. 08:40 AM - Re: Model 2 rudder pedal SB (Guy Buchanan)
4. 10:30 AM - Re: Model 2 rudder pedal SB (Jeffrey Dill)
5. 11:13 AM - Re: Re: Series 5 Light Sport (Jay & Beverly)
6. 11:48 AM - Re: Model 2 rudder pedal SB (Michel Verheughe)
7. 12:19 PM - Re: Series 5 Light Sport (akflyer)
8. 12:39 PM - Re: Full lotus amphib floats (akflyer)
9. 12:57 PM - Re: Re: Series 5 Light Sport (RRTRACK@aol.com)
10. 12:59 PM - Re: Series 5 Light Sport (akflyer)
11. 01:19 PM - Re: Re: Series 5 Light Sport (Dacha)
12. 01:21 PM - Re: Re: Series 5 Light Sport (RRTRACK@aol.com)
13. 01:27 PM - Re: Re: Series 5 Light Sport (John W. Hart)
14. 03:30 PM - Re: Re: Full lotus amphib floats (Brian Morissette)
15. 03:36 PM - Re: Re: Series 5 Light Sport (Guy Buchanan)
16. 03:36 PM - Re: Model 2 rudder pedal SB (Guy Buchanan)
17. 04:18 PM - Re: Full lotus amphib floats (dave)
18. 04:24 PM - Re: Full lotus amphib floats (akflyer)
19. 05:23 PM - Re: Re: Series 5 Light Sport (Jay & Beverly)
20. 06:57 PM - Re: Re: Series 5 Light Sport (Clint Bazzill)
21. 07:33 PM - Light Sport Rules? (RRTRACK@AOL.COM)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Kitfox Classic IV for sale |
Time to put the engine on my Bearhawk plus I'm simply not going to need three aircraft
so my 912 powered IV-1200 is going up for sale.
Pls pass along to anyone interested. Email me off-list with any questions.
Specifics at http://www.foxflier.com/kitfox/forsale
Thanks,
Ted
N962TC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179129#179129
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| Subject: | Re: Series 5 Light Sport |
When applying the term "maximum take off weight", as it is used in LSA issues,
one must remember it does not refer to a number in the aircraft paperwork, but
a condition of the aircraft at the time of takeoff.. It's a limiting weight,
regardless of the actual capability. There is no disqualifying factor due to an
efficient, or overbuilt aircraft.
Ref: http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/regulatory/sport_rule.pdf
A Recreational Pilot may fly certain aircraft with 4 seats.... but he/she is limited
to 2 occupants, including pilot.
A Sportpilot may fly certain aircraft designed to fly safely at say, 1500 lbs,
but heshe must limit the weight at time of takeoff to 1320 max.(land)
Same concept.
Steve
84KF
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179141#179141
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| Subject: | Re: Model 2 rudder pedal SB |
At 08:17 AM 4/24/2008, you wrote:
>Do I need to reinforce my rudder pedals, and if so, how do I get a
>copy of the procedure?
Jeff,
Attached please find a picture of my rudder pedals.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
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| Subject: | Re: Model 2 rudder pedal SB |
Thanks Dave and Guy. I will get to work.
--------
Jeff Dill
Model 2, 767JD
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179163#179163
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| Subject: | Re: Series 5 Light Sport |
Did you not like the answer from EAA?
Jay C.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Answer :
We appreciate the effort you put forth in sending this question in, and it's
a good one. However, the fact is we HAVE read the rule and applied it
correctly, and we've checked again with the FAA legal department for
clarification.
As you suggest, one must read the rule carefully and apply it correctly. The
fact is, the devil is in the details of the wording of the definition of a
light-sport aircraft (LSA) as called out in the regulations (Ref. 14 CFR
1.1).
The very first line of the definition is the key. It states:
"Light-sport aircraft means an aircraft, other than a helicopter or
powered-lift that, since its original certification, has continued to meet
the following:"
This verbiage clearly says that an aircraft must meet all the criteria
called out in the definition of an LSA at the time of its original
certification AND CONTINUOUSLY thereafter. One of the items it must meet is
a maximum takeoff weight of 1320 lbs (1430 lbs for seaplanes). Since it must
meet this requirement continuously since it's original certification, it can
NEVER have been operated at a maximum takeoff weight of anything greater
than the weight called out in the LSA definition. If it operates at a
maximum takeoff weight greater than that called out in the definition EVEN
ONE TIME, it no longer meets the definition and is not eligible for
operation by sport pilots forever thereafter.
So the scenario you suggest, where a Kitfox has a maximum gross of 1400 lbs
but can be operated at 1320 lbs by a sport pilot, won't work. If the
aircraft has EVER been operated at a maximum takeoff weight of greater than
1320 lbs, even if it was only one time, it no longer meets the definition of
a light sport aircraft and is not eligible for operation by sport pilots.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michfox5" <stevebenesh@comcast.net>
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 10:11 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Series 5 Light Sport
>
> When applying the term "maximum take off weight", as it is used in LSA
> issues, one must remember it does not refer to a number in the aircraft
> paperwork, but a condition of the aircraft at the time of takeoff.. It's a
> limiting weight, regardless of the actual capability. There is no
> disqualifying factor due to an efficient, or overbuilt aircraft.
> Ref: http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/regulatory/sport_rule.pdf
>
> A Recreational Pilot may fly certain aircraft with 4 seats.... but he/she
> is limited to 2 occupants, including pilot.
> A Sportpilot may fly certain aircraft designed to fly safely at say, 1500
> lbs, but heshe must limit the weight at time of takeoff to 1320
> max.(land)
> Same concept.
>
> Steve
> 84KF
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179141#179141
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Model 2 rudder pedal SB |
> From: Guy Buchanan [bnn@nethere.com]
> Attached please find a picture of my rudder pedals.
That's not a pedal, Guy! That's a piece of art!
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
Do not archive
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
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| Subject: | Re: Series 5 Light Sport |
just wondering... do you log the maximum weight in your log book for each takeoff
??? I would really like to see someone prove that you have made that one flight
at greater than 1320. I can tell you stories of guys overloading a supercub
by 500 or more pounds day after day year after year, yet the airworthiness
has never been questioned by the FAA.
If you get ramp checked and the inspector asks you if you have ever flown the plane
at a max take off weight of greater than 1320 pounds and you tell him anything
other than "no sir" you are a ... not to bright individual.
If you are so willing to try and twist the ruling to show you cant fly at KF 5
under sport pilot, why the heck can't you turn it around and see how you can.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
95% complete
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179186#179186
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Full lotus amphib floats |
My brother just picked up a set of 1220 amphibs that a guy had on his model III.
Just the weight of the plane alone without pilot put a big bow in the spreader
bar on the skystar rigging. It was bowed so much that he would not even try
to take off or land on the wheels and only used them to roll from the hangar
to the lake in the spring, then back to the hangar in the fall. It also adds
alot of weight to the float package. Someone may have designed a heavier rigging
for the full lotus amphib option, but if you are thinking of using it on
the normal skystar rigging you may be a little PO'd the first time you try to
use them.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
95% complete
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179193#179193
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Series 5 Light Sport |
As far as a Sport Pilot using an experimental homebuilt aircraft. I believe
it is required to test the flight characteristics at gross weight during the
40 hour phase and record the results in the log book.
At least that is what I have done with experimentals I built and test flew.
I used sand or salt bags to add passenger weight. And also conducted flight
tests with low and full fuel at near gross weights.
I love the concept of flying a Kitfox 5 to 7 registered at 1500 gross as a
sport plane by limiting the take off weight to 1320#. Hopefully it can be done.
Keep me posted.
Mark
Kitfox 5 Vixen
912UL IVO
Hartford, Wisconsin
**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car
listings at AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Series 5 Light Sport |
[quote="RRTRACK(at)aol.com"]Oh No !!!!!!!!! Someone had to ask.
I certified my Kitfox 5 at 1320#. Once you certify it at any thing above 1320
you can't go down again. But you can go up or certify it at 1320 to start with.
My statement has nothing to do with weather it is legal to fly LS in planes
above 1320 certified gross weight. Just pointing out a Kitfox can be certified
at 1320#.
Mark
Kitfox 5 Vixen
912UL IVO
Hartford, Wisconsin
> [b]
where on the paper work did you specify the 1320 pounds? I have nothing on my
certification paperwork that states, or asks for the gross weight, or maximum
take off weight. I may be missing some of the paperwork that should have come
with the plane as all logs were lost in a house fire per the previous owner.
I have requested all paperwork the FAA has on file yet have not received it.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
95% complete
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179200#179200
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| Subject: | Re: Series 5 Light Sport |
Wish my Kitfox 5 was certified 1320 instead of 1500, I wouldnt be selling
it.
LeRoy
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Series 5 Light Sport |
I believe it was on both the weight and balance and the "request" for
certification forms. But I do not have the paperwork here to see for sure. Is
there
no upper weight limit to your weight and balance sheet, operating manual or
registration card? The gross weight is also required on the state
registration form in Wisconsin.
**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car
listings at AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Series 5 Light Sport |
The aircraft cannot be issued an experimental or E-LSA special airworthiness
certificate specifying a maximum takeoff weight of more than 1320 pounds and
flown under sport pilot rules. Any builder can specify the maximum takeoff
weight of his aircraft, and have the special airworthiness certificate list
the maximum takeoff weight as 1320 pounds or less and operate under Sport
Pilot rules. If the you specify the maximum takeoff weight in the
application for certification at 1320, that's what you will get. If you
specify the maximum takeoff weight at 1500, that's what you will get, and it
don't fit light sport rules.
My Experimental (not E-LSA) KF IV shows a Gross Weight of 1250 on the data
plate, and in the paperwork. The kit producers specified gross weight for
the finished kit as 1200. The builder made a few mods, said he wanted to
have the Special Airworthiness Certificate to show a gross weight of 1250 on
his application and that's what he got. Works the other way too.
John Hart
KF IV
Wilburton, OK
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RRTRACK@aol.com
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Series 5 Light Sport
As far as a Sport Pilot using an experimental homebuilt aircraft. I believe
it is required to test the flight characteristics at gross weight during the
40 hour phase and record the results in the log book.
At least that is what I have done with experimentals I built and test flew.
I used sand or salt bags to add passenger weight. And also conducted flight
tests with low and full fuel at near gross weights.
I love the concept of flying a Kitfox 5 to 7 registered at 1500 gross as a
sport plane by limiting the take off weight to 1320#. Hopefully it can be
done. Keep me posted.
Mark
Kitfox 5 Vixen
912UL IVO
Hartford, Wisconsin
_____
Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at
AOL Autos <http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851> .
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Full lotus amphib floats |
Gee, that doesn't sound good at all. Did your brother install this set on a
model IV?
I am getting more negative response with respect to the full lotus than
positive.
Material degradation due to the sun now bowing of the main spreader. Has
anyone had a positive experience with full lotus floats?
Brian
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of akflyer
Sent: April 25, 2008 3:36 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Full lotus amphib floats
My brother just picked up a set of 1220 amphibs that a guy had on his model
III. Just the weight of the plane alone without pilot put a big bow in the
spreader bar on the skystar rigging. It was bowed so much that he would not
even try to take off or land on the wheels and only used them to roll from
the hangar to the lake in the spring, then back to the hangar in the fall.
It also adds alot of weight to the float package. Someone may have designed
a heavier rigging for the full lotus amphib option, but if you are thinking
of using it on the normal skystar rigging you may be a little PO'd the first
time you try to use them.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
95% complete
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179193#179193
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Series 5 Light Sport |
HOORAY! HOORAY!
SOMEONE has finally gone the distance and found some
DEFINITIVE information. (I hope.) Jay, may we have a source for this
quote? I'd like to know who it came from so we can ascertain their credentials.
Now before anyone thinks I was rooting either way, I wasn't
and I'm not. Indeed I hoped that Steve was right and that he would
publish definitive proof sooner or later. All I wanted was data, not opinion.
At 09:46 AM 4/25/2008, you wrote:
><valleyairport@cotterweb.com>
>
>Did you not like the answer from EAA?
> Jay C.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Do not archive
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| Subject: | Model 2 rudder pedal SB |
At 11:44 AM 4/25/2008, you wrote:
>That's not a pedal, Guy! That's a piece of art!
I'll pass it along to Bob. He'll be pleased. (Re: picture of rudder pedal.)
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Do not archive
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Full lotus amphib floats |
Full lotus are draggy.
You from Sudbury ? check out my videos from 25 SW of you near Killrney
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2f0_vks6UXE
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179260#179260
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Full lotus amphib floats |
I have flown the crap put of them, and am 100% certain they are the only reason
I am alive today! I have flown them on a PA12 and a PA22 (thats the one I spuded
in) and on my brothers KF II. I love the floats and feel they are the only
ones that will hold up to the abuse I like to dish out. My only complaint
is the original skystar rigging wont hold up to amphib use. I could design my
own rigging and I am sure they would be fine, or you could add additional bracing
to the skystar rigging.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foPn48ap46Y
a video of me enjoying the floats doing what you could not do with any other float.
Will have alot more vid to put up as soon as I get my other computer back
from rehab... it had a drinking problem and could not handle a simple margarita..
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
95% complete
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179263#179263
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| Subject: | Re: Series 5 Light Sport |
Guy,
Quote? The," Did not like the answer" was my comment. I went to the
EAA sport pilot site and searched the question and answer section. The same
question about the 1320 TO weight that keeps appearing on this list was
asked of the EAA. The answer from EAA is what I included in the previous
message.
It would be nice if current TO weight could be used. If this were
the case I think there would be more normal category aircraft available to
sport pilots. If the TO weight can be used, the authorities that have that
information are treating it like a state secret. I think AOPA, EAA, and
anyone with a normal category aircraft for sale that has a weight just above
1320 would have banner headlines with that information.
Jay C.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Guy Buchanan" <bnn@nethere.com>
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 5:29 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Series 5 Light Sport
>
> HOORAY! HOORAY!
>
> SOMEONE has finally gone the distance and found some DEFINITIVE
> information. (I hope.) Jay, may we have a source for this quote? I'd like
> to know who it came from so we can ascertain their credentials.
>
> Now before anyone thinks I was rooting either way, I wasn't and
> I'm not. Indeed I hoped that Steve was right and that he would publish
> definitive proof sooner or later. All I wanted was data, not opinion.
>
> At 09:46 AM 4/25/2008, you wrote:
>><valleyairport@cotterweb.com>
>>
>>Did you not like the answer from EAA?
>> Jay C.
>
> Guy Buchanan
> San Diego, CA
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>
> Do not archive
>
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Series 5 Light Sport |
Please correct me if I am wrong. My understanding of E-LSA are referred to
aircraft that were unlicensed 2 place ultra light aircraft that fell in th
e no mans area. They were licensed in the category because they were not b
uilt by the owner and could not be licensed as amateur built experimental,
also they could no longer be flown legally as a ultra light with one person
.
Clint
From: helili@chahtatushka.netTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Kitf
ox-List: Re: Series 5 Light SportDate: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 15:24:32 -0500
The aircraft cannot be issued an experimental or E-LSA special airworthines
s certificate specifying a maximum takeoff weight of more than 1320 pounds
and flown under sport pilot rules. Any builder can specify the maximum tak
eoff weight of his aircraft, and have the special airworthiness certificate
list the maximum takeoff weight as 1320 pounds or less and operate under S
port Pilot rules. If the you specify the maximum takeoff weight in the app
lication for certification at 1320, that=92s what you will get. If you spe
cify the maximum takeoff weight at 1500, that=92s what you will get, and it
don=92t fit light sport rules.
My Experimental (not E-LSA) KF IV shows a Gross Weight of 1250 on the data
plate, and in the paperwork. The kit producers specified gross weight for
the finished kit as 1200. The builder made a few mods, said he wanted to
have the Special Airworthiness Certificate to show a gross weight of 1250 o
n his application and that=92s what he got. Works the other way too.
John Hart
KF IV
Wilburton, OK
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-serv
er@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RRTRACK@aol.comSent: Friday, April 25, 2008
2:54 PMTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Series 5
Light Sport
As far as a Sport Pilot using an experimental homebuilt aircraft. I believe
it is required to test the flight characteristics at gross weight during t
he 40 hour phase and record the results in the log book.
At least that is what I have done with experimentals I built and test flew.
I used sand or salt bags to add passenger weight. And also conducted fligh
t tests with low and full fuel at near gross weights.
I love the concept of flying a Kitfox 5 to 7 registered at 1500 gross as a
sport plane by limiting the take off weight to 1320#. Hopefully it can be d
one. Keep me posted.
MarkKitfox 5 Vixen912UL IVOHartford, Wisconsin
Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at A
OL Autos. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-Listhttp://forums.matr
onics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 21
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| Subject: | Light Sport Rules? |
Can any one explain "WHY" if an LSA qualified plane is flown with an IFA
prop or over 1320# take off weight even once it should be disqualified forever
as an LSA?
All that should matter is "Does it fit the qualifications now". I just would
like to know why they made the rule the way they did.
Mark
Kitfox 5 Vixen
912UL IVO
Hartford, Wisconsin
**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car
listings at AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
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