---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 04/25/08: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:15 AM - Kitfox Classic IV for sale (flier) 2. 08:13 AM - Re: Series 5 Light Sport (Michfox5) 3. 08:40 AM - Re: Model 2 rudder pedal SB (Guy Buchanan) 4. 10:30 AM - Re: Model 2 rudder pedal SB (Jeffrey Dill) 5. 11:13 AM - Re: Re: Series 5 Light Sport (Jay & Beverly) 6. 11:48 AM - Re: Model 2 rudder pedal SB (Michel Verheughe) 7. 12:19 PM - Re: Series 5 Light Sport (akflyer) 8. 12:39 PM - Re: Full lotus amphib floats (akflyer) 9. 12:57 PM - Re: Re: Series 5 Light Sport (RRTRACK@aol.com) 10. 12:59 PM - Re: Series 5 Light Sport (akflyer) 11. 01:19 PM - Re: Re: Series 5 Light Sport (Dacha) 12. 01:21 PM - Re: Re: Series 5 Light Sport (RRTRACK@aol.com) 13. 01:27 PM - Re: Re: Series 5 Light Sport (John W. Hart) 14. 03:30 PM - Re: Re: Full lotus amphib floats (Brian Morissette) 15. 03:36 PM - Re: Re: Series 5 Light Sport (Guy Buchanan) 16. 03:36 PM - Re: Model 2 rudder pedal SB (Guy Buchanan) 17. 04:18 PM - Re: Full lotus amphib floats (dave) 18. 04:24 PM - Re: Full lotus amphib floats (akflyer) 19. 05:23 PM - Re: Re: Series 5 Light Sport (Jay & Beverly) 20. 06:57 PM - Re: Re: Series 5 Light Sport (Clint Bazzill) 21. 07:33 PM - Light Sport Rules? (RRTRACK@AOL.COM) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:15:50 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Classic IV for sale From: "flier" Time to put the engine on my Bearhawk plus I'm simply not going to need three aircraft so my 912 powered IV-1200 is going up for sale. Pls pass along to anyone interested. Email me off-list with any questions. Specifics at http://www.foxflier.com/kitfox/forsale Thanks, Ted N962TC Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179129#179129 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:13:53 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Series 5 Light Sport From: "Michfox5" When applying the term "maximum take off weight", as it is used in LSA issues, one must remember it does not refer to a number in the aircraft paperwork, but a condition of the aircraft at the time of takeoff.. It's a limiting weight, regardless of the actual capability. There is no disqualifying factor due to an efficient, or overbuilt aircraft. Ref: http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/regulatory/sport_rule.pdf A Recreational Pilot may fly certain aircraft with 4 seats.... but he/she is limited to 2 occupants, including pilot. A Sportpilot may fly certain aircraft designed to fly safely at say, 1500 lbs, but heshe must limit the weight at time of takeoff to 1320 max.(land) Same concept. Steve 84KF Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179141#179141 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:40:41 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Model 2 rudder pedal SB At 08:17 AM 4/24/2008, you wrote: >Do I need to reinforce my rudder pedals, and if so, how do I get a >copy of the procedure? Jeff, Attached please find a picture of my rudder pedals. Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:30:16 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Model 2 rudder pedal SB From: "Jeffrey Dill" <1dillfamily@comcast.net> Thanks Dave and Guy. I will get to work. -------- Jeff Dill Model 2, 767JD Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179163#179163 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:13:10 AM PST US From: "Jay & Beverly" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Series 5 Light Sport Did you not like the answer from EAA? Jay C. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Answer : We appreciate the effort you put forth in sending this question in, and it's a good one. However, the fact is we HAVE read the rule and applied it correctly, and we've checked again with the FAA legal department for clarification. As you suggest, one must read the rule carefully and apply it correctly. The fact is, the devil is in the details of the wording of the definition of a light-sport aircraft (LSA) as called out in the regulations (Ref. 14 CFR 1.1). The very first line of the definition is the key. It states: "Light-sport aircraft means an aircraft, other than a helicopter or powered-lift that, since its original certification, has continued to meet the following:" This verbiage clearly says that an aircraft must meet all the criteria called out in the definition of an LSA at the time of its original certification AND CONTINUOUSLY thereafter. One of the items it must meet is a maximum takeoff weight of 1320 lbs (1430 lbs for seaplanes). Since it must meet this requirement continuously since it's original certification, it can NEVER have been operated at a maximum takeoff weight of anything greater than the weight called out in the LSA definition. If it operates at a maximum takeoff weight greater than that called out in the definition EVEN ONE TIME, it no longer meets the definition and is not eligible for operation by sport pilots forever thereafter. So the scenario you suggest, where a Kitfox has a maximum gross of 1400 lbs but can be operated at 1320 lbs by a sport pilot, won't work. If the aircraft has EVER been operated at a maximum takeoff weight of greater than 1320 lbs, even if it was only one time, it no longer meets the definition of a light sport aircraft and is not eligible for operation by sport pilots. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michfox5" Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 10:11 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Series 5 Light Sport > > When applying the term "maximum take off weight", as it is used in LSA > issues, one must remember it does not refer to a number in the aircraft > paperwork, but a condition of the aircraft at the time of takeoff.. It's a > limiting weight, regardless of the actual capability. There is no > disqualifying factor due to an efficient, or overbuilt aircraft. > Ref: http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/regulatory/sport_rule.pdf > > A Recreational Pilot may fly certain aircraft with 4 seats.... but he/she > is limited to 2 occupants, including pilot. > A Sportpilot may fly certain aircraft designed to fly safely at say, 1500 > lbs, but heshe must limit the weight at time of takeoff to 1320 > max.(land) > Same concept. > > Steve > 84KF > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179141#179141 > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:48:09 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Model 2 rudder pedal SB > From: Guy Buchanan [bnn@nethere.com] > Attached please find a picture of my rudder pedals. That's not a pedal, Guy! That's a piece of art! Cheers, Michel Verheughe Norway Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 Do not archive
________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:19:57 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Series 5 Light Sport From: "akflyer" just wondering... do you log the maximum weight in your log book for each takeoff ??? I would really like to see someone prove that you have made that one flight at greater than 1320. I can tell you stories of guys overloading a supercub by 500 or more pounds day after day year after year, yet the airworthiness has never been questioned by the FAA. If you get ramp checked and the inspector asks you if you have ever flown the plane at a max take off weight of greater than 1320 pounds and you tell him anything other than "no sir" you are a ... not to bright individual. If you are so willing to try and twist the ruling to show you cant fly at KF 5 under sport pilot, why the heck can't you turn it around and see how you can. -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 95% complete Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179186#179186 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:39:20 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Full lotus amphib floats From: "akflyer" My brother just picked up a set of 1220 amphibs that a guy had on his model III. Just the weight of the plane alone without pilot put a big bow in the spreader bar on the skystar rigging. It was bowed so much that he would not even try to take off or land on the wheels and only used them to roll from the hangar to the lake in the spring, then back to the hangar in the fall. It also adds alot of weight to the float package. Someone may have designed a heavier rigging for the full lotus amphib option, but if you are thinking of using it on the normal skystar rigging you may be a little PO'd the first time you try to use them. -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 95% complete Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179193#179193 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:57:05 PM PST US From: RRTRACK@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Series 5 Light Sport As far as a Sport Pilot using an experimental homebuilt aircraft. I believe it is required to test the flight characteristics at gross weight during the 40 hour phase and record the results in the log book. At least that is what I have done with experimentals I built and test flew. I used sand or salt bags to add passenger weight. And also conducted flight tests with low and full fuel at near gross weights. I love the concept of flying a Kitfox 5 to 7 registered at 1500 gross as a sport plane by limiting the take off weight to 1320#. Hopefully it can be done. Keep me posted. Mark Kitfox 5 Vixen 912UL IVO Hartford, Wisconsin **************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:59:05 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Series 5 Light Sport From: "akflyer" [quote="RRTRACK(at)aol.com"]Oh No !!!!!!!!! Someone had to ask. I certified my Kitfox 5 at 1320#. Once you certify it at any thing above 1320 you can't go down again. But you can go up or certify it at 1320 to start with. My statement has nothing to do with weather it is legal to fly LS in planes above 1320 certified gross weight. Just pointing out a Kitfox can be certified at 1320#. Mark Kitfox 5 Vixen 912UL IVO Hartford, Wisconsin > [b] where on the paper work did you specify the 1320 pounds? I have nothing on my certification paperwork that states, or asks for the gross weight, or maximum take off weight. I may be missing some of the paperwork that should have come with the plane as all logs were lost in a house fire per the previous owner. I have requested all paperwork the FAA has on file yet have not received it. -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 95% complete Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179200#179200 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:19:39 PM PST US From: "Dacha" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Series 5 Light Sport Wish my Kitfox 5 was certified 1320 instead of 1500, I wouldnt be selling it. LeRoy ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:21:41 PM PST US From: RRTRACK@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Series 5 Light Sport I believe it was on both the weight and balance and the "request" for certification forms. But I do not have the paperwork here to see for sure. Is there no upper weight limit to your weight and balance sheet, operating manual or registration card? The gross weight is also required on the state registration form in Wisconsin. **************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:27:15 PM PST US From: "John W. Hart" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Series 5 Light Sport The aircraft cannot be issued an experimental or E-LSA special airworthiness certificate specifying a maximum takeoff weight of more than 1320 pounds and flown under sport pilot rules. Any builder can specify the maximum takeoff weight of his aircraft, and have the special airworthiness certificate list the maximum takeoff weight as 1320 pounds or less and operate under Sport Pilot rules. If the you specify the maximum takeoff weight in the application for certification at 1320, that's what you will get. If you specify the maximum takeoff weight at 1500, that's what you will get, and it don't fit light sport rules. My Experimental (not E-LSA) KF IV shows a Gross Weight of 1250 on the data plate, and in the paperwork. The kit producers specified gross weight for the finished kit as 1200. The builder made a few mods, said he wanted to have the Special Airworthiness Certificate to show a gross weight of 1250 on his application and that's what he got. Works the other way too. John Hart KF IV Wilburton, OK From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RRTRACK@aol.com Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 2:54 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Series 5 Light Sport As far as a Sport Pilot using an experimental homebuilt aircraft. I believe it is required to test the flight characteristics at gross weight during the 40 hour phase and record the results in the log book. At least that is what I have done with experimentals I built and test flew. I used sand or salt bags to add passenger weight. And also conducted flight tests with low and full fuel at near gross weights. I love the concept of flying a Kitfox 5 to 7 registered at 1500 gross as a sport plane by limiting the take off weight to 1320#. Hopefully it can be done. Keep me posted. Mark Kitfox 5 Vixen 912UL IVO Hartford, Wisconsin _____ Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:30:24 PM PST US From: "Brian Morissette" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Full lotus amphib floats Gee, that doesn't sound good at all. Did your brother install this set on a model IV? I am getting more negative response with respect to the full lotus than positive. Material degradation due to the sun now bowing of the main spreader. Has anyone had a positive experience with full lotus floats? Brian -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of akflyer Sent: April 25, 2008 3:36 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Full lotus amphib floats My brother just picked up a set of 1220 amphibs that a guy had on his model III. Just the weight of the plane alone without pilot put a big bow in the spreader bar on the skystar rigging. It was bowed so much that he would not even try to take off or land on the wheels and only used them to roll from the hangar to the lake in the spring, then back to the hangar in the fall. It also adds alot of weight to the float package. Someone may have designed a heavier rigging for the full lotus amphib option, but if you are thinking of using it on the normal skystar rigging you may be a little PO'd the first time you try to use them. -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 95% complete Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179193#179193 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:36:03 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Series 5 Light Sport HOORAY! HOORAY! SOMEONE has finally gone the distance and found some DEFINITIVE information. (I hope.) Jay, may we have a source for this quote? I'd like to know who it came from so we can ascertain their credentials. Now before anyone thinks I was rooting either way, I wasn't and I'm not. Indeed I hoped that Steve was right and that he would publish definitive proof sooner or later. All I wanted was data, not opinion. At 09:46 AM 4/25/2008, you wrote: > > >Did you not like the answer from EAA? > Jay C. Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:36:05 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Model 2 rudder pedal SB At 11:44 AM 4/25/2008, you wrote: >That's not a pedal, Guy! That's a piece of art! I'll pass it along to Bob. He'll be pleased. (Re: picture of rudder pedal.) Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:18:39 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Full lotus amphib floats From: "dave" Full lotus are draggy. You from Sudbury ? check out my videos from 25 SW of you near Killrney http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2f0_vks6UXE -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada Flying Videos and Kitfox Info http://www.cfisher.com/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179260#179260 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 04:24:47 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Full lotus amphib floats From: "akflyer" I have flown the crap put of them, and am 100% certain they are the only reason I am alive today! I have flown them on a PA12 and a PA22 (thats the one I spuded in) and on my brothers KF II. I love the floats and feel they are the only ones that will hold up to the abuse I like to dish out. My only complaint is the original skystar rigging wont hold up to amphib use. I could design my own rigging and I am sure they would be fine, or you could add additional bracing to the skystar rigging. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foPn48ap46Y a video of me enjoying the floats doing what you could not do with any other float. Will have alot more vid to put up as soon as I get my other computer back from rehab... it had a drinking problem and could not handle a simple margarita.. -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 95% complete Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179263#179263 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:23:57 PM PST US From: "Jay & Beverly" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Series 5 Light Sport Guy, Quote? The," Did not like the answer" was my comment. I went to the EAA sport pilot site and searched the question and answer section. The same question about the 1320 TO weight that keeps appearing on this list was asked of the EAA. The answer from EAA is what I included in the previous message. It would be nice if current TO weight could be used. If this were the case I think there would be more normal category aircraft available to sport pilots. If the TO weight can be used, the authorities that have that information are treating it like a state secret. I think AOPA, EAA, and anyone with a normal category aircraft for sale that has a weight just above 1320 would have banner headlines with that information. Jay C. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Guy Buchanan" Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 5:29 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Series 5 Light Sport > > HOORAY! HOORAY! > > SOMEONE has finally gone the distance and found some DEFINITIVE > information. (I hope.) Jay, may we have a source for this quote? I'd like > to know who it came from so we can ascertain their credentials. > > Now before anyone thinks I was rooting either way, I wasn't and > I'm not. Indeed I hoped that Steve was right and that he would publish > definitive proof sooner or later. All I wanted was data, not opinion. > > At 09:46 AM 4/25/2008, you wrote: >> >> >>Did you not like the answer from EAA? >> Jay C. > > Guy Buchanan > San Diego, CA > K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. > > Do not archive > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:57:22 PM PST US From: Clint Bazzill Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Series 5 Light Sport Please correct me if I am wrong. My understanding of E-LSA are referred to aircraft that were unlicensed 2 place ultra light aircraft that fell in th e no mans area. They were licensed in the category because they were not b uilt by the owner and could not be licensed as amateur built experimental, also they could no longer be flown legally as a ultra light with one person .. Clint From: helili@chahtatushka.netTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Kitf ox-List: Re: Series 5 Light SportDate: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 15:24:32 -0500 The aircraft cannot be issued an experimental or E-LSA special airworthines s certificate specifying a maximum takeoff weight of more than 1320 pounds and flown under sport pilot rules. Any builder can specify the maximum tak eoff weight of his aircraft, and have the special airworthiness certificate list the maximum takeoff weight as 1320 pounds or less and operate under S port Pilot rules. If the you specify the maximum takeoff weight in the app lication for certification at 1320, that=92s what you will get. If you spe cify the maximum takeoff weight at 1500, that=92s what you will get, and it don=92t fit light sport rules. My Experimental (not E-LSA) KF IV shows a Gross Weight of 1250 on the data plate, and in the paperwork. The kit producers specified gross weight for the finished kit as 1200. The builder made a few mods, said he wanted to have the Special Airworthiness Certificate to show a gross weight of 1250 o n his application and that=92s what he got. Works the other way too. John Hart KF IV Wilburton, OK From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-serv er@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RRTRACK@aol.comSent: Friday, April 25, 2008 2:54 PMTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Series 5 Light Sport As far as a Sport Pilot using an experimental homebuilt aircraft. I believe it is required to test the flight characteristics at gross weight during t he 40 hour phase and record the results in the log book. At least that is what I have done with experimentals I built and test flew. I used sand or salt bags to add passenger weight. And also conducted fligh t tests with low and full fuel at near gross weights. I love the concept of flying a Kitfox 5 to 7 registered at 1500 gross as a sport plane by limiting the take off weight to 1320#. Hopefully it can be d one. Keep me posted. MarkKitfox 5 Vixen912UL IVOHartford, Wisconsin Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at A OL Autos. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-Listhttp://forums.matr onics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:33:26 PM PST US From: RRTRACK@AOL.COM Subject: Kitfox-List: Light Sport Rules? Can any one explain "WHY" if an LSA qualified plane is flown with an IFA prop or over 1320# take off weight even once it should be disqualified forever as an LSA? All that should matter is "Does it fit the qualifications now". I just would like to know why they made the rule the way they did. Mark Kitfox 5 Vixen 912UL IVO Hartford, Wisconsin **************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. 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