Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:33 AM - Re: Re: Series 5 Light Sport (John W. Hart)
2. 05:46 AM - Re: Light Sport Rules? (John W. Hart)
3. 07:05 AM - Re: Light Sport Rules? (RRTRACK@aol.com)
4. 07:35 AM - Re: Light Sport Rules? (John W. Hart)
5. 10:56 AM - Sport Pilot (Teresa Staley)
6. 01:18 PM - Re: Sport Pilot (John W. Hart)
7. 02:54 PM - Four New Email Lists At Matronics!! (Matt Dralle)
8. 04:06 PM - Re: Light Sport Rules? (vetdrem)
9. 05:08 PM - Re: Light Sport Rules? (akflyer)
10. 05:13 PM - Re: Series 5 Light Sport (akflyer)
11. 05:20 PM - Re: Light Sport Rules? (Noel Loveys)
12. 07:03 PM - Re: Sport Pilot (Sbennett3@aol.com)
13. 07:18 PM - Re: Sport Pilot (eskflyer)
14. 07:38 PM - Re: Re: Sport Pilot (Sbennett3@aol.com)
15. 09:27 PM - Great Lakes Area kitfox Fly-In (steve shinabery)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Series 5 Light Sport |
No. Those "vehicles" were illegal to begin with without an FAA waiver of
Part 103. See:
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr
<http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=86f198b84e879bd70a
58f4d7617b8376&rgn=div5&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.3.16&idno=14#14:2.0.1.3.16.1
.9.3>
&sid=86f198b84e879bd70a58f4d7617b8376&rgn=div5&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.3.16&
idno=14#14:2.0.1.3.16.1.9.3
For explanation of E-LSA See:
http://www.sportpilot.org/learn/lsa/likely_lsa.html
John Hart
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clint Bazzill
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 8:54 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Series 5 Light Sport
Please correct me if I am wrong. My understanding of E-LSA are referred to
aircraft that were unlicensed 2 place ultra light aircraft that fell in the
no mans area. They were licensed in the category because they were not
built by the owner and could not be licensed as amateur built experimental,
also they could no longer be flown legally as a ultra light with one person.
Clint
_____
From: helili@chahtatushka.net
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Series 5 Light Sport
The aircraft cannot be issued an experimental or E-LSA special airworthiness
certificate specifying a maximum takeoff weight of more than 1320 pounds and
flown under sport pilot rules. Any builder can specify the maximum takeoff
weight of his aircraft, and have the special airworthiness certificate list
the maximum takeoff weight as 1320 pounds or less and operate under Sport
Pilot rules. If the you specify the maximum takeoff weight in the
application for certification at 1320, that's what you will get. If you
specify the maximum takeoff weight at 1500, that's what you will get, and it
don't fit light sport rules.
My Experimental (not E-LSA) KF IV shows a Gross Weight of 1250 on the data
plate, and in the paperwork. The kit producers specified gross weight for
the finished kit as 1200. The builder made a few mods, said he wanted to
have the Special Airworthiness Certificate to show a gross weight of 1250 on
his application and that's what he got. Works the other way too.
John Hart
KF IV
Wilburton, OK
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RRTRACK@aol.com
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Series 5 Light Sport
As far as a Sport Pilot using an experimental homebuilt aircraft. I believe
it is required to test the flight characteristics at gross weight during the
40 hour phase and record the results in the log book.
At least that is what I have done with experimentals I built and test flew.
I used sand or salt bags to add passenger weight. And also conducted flight
tests with low and full fuel at near gross weights.
I love the concept of flying a Kitfox 5 to 7 registered at 1500 gross as a
sport plane by limiting the take off weight to 1320#. Hopefully it can be
done. Keep me posted.
Mark
Kitfox 5 Vixen
912UL IVO
Hartford, Wisconsin
_____
Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at
AOL <http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851> Autos.
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Light Sport Rules? |
Can't say why the FAA makes any rule( and I used to work for them). The
only explanation I ever heard, and it wasn't in a rule or even written, is
that it is an in-flight adjustable prop was a "complicated" device and the
rules were being written for "uncomplicated" aircraft so pilots with a
minimum amount of experience could operate them. As far as the weight, I
ain't got a clue!
John Hart
KF IV
Wilburton, OK
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RRTRACK@AOL.COM
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 9:29 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Light Sport Rules?
Can any one explain "WHY" if an LSA qualified plane is flown with an IFA
prop or over 1320# take off weight even once it should be disqualified
forever as an LSA?
All that should matter is "Does it fit the qualifications now". I just would
like to know why they made the rule the way they did.
Mark
Kitfox 5 Vixen
912UL IVO
Hartford, Wisconsin
_____
Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at
AOL Autos <http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851> .
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Light Sport Rules? |
I fully agree with the limits put on LSA planes. An IFA prop does add
complication and should not be allowed for LSA use. But if it was removed and
a
ground adjustable prop installed for LSA use, why should it be disqualified
forever? Just makes no sense to me.
If this was written to keep more complicated planes from being modified to
meet the LSA requirements, I still ask why, all that should matter is does
it meet the LSA requirements now. This part of the rule sounds more like
politics than common sense. What am I missing?
Mark
Kitfox 5 Vixen
912UL IVO
Hartford, Wisconsin
**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car
listings at AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
Message 4
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| Subject: | Light Sport Rules? |
The only answer that I can think of in that light is, "The FAA has spoken!".
They write the rules under a mandate of Congress through Public Law. Public
Law is changeable, BUT, it takes a lot of time, not to mention money, to do
it from an individual level. The legislative branch of the Federal
government can force a change , BUT, they have to be convinced to do it.
Me, I ain't got the time or money to fight it, not to mention the
inclination. I'd rather go fly for the few years I got left.
John Hart
KF IV
Wilburton, OK
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RRTRACK@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 9:02 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Light Sport Rules?
I fully agree with the limits put on LSA planes. An IFA prop does add
complication and should not be allowed for LSA use. But if it was removed
and a ground adjustable prop installed for LSA use, why should it be
disqualified forever? Just makes no sense to me.
If this was written to keep more complicated planes from being modified to
meet the LSA requirements, I still ask why, all that should matter is does
it meet the LSA requirements now. This part of the rule sounds more like
politics than common sense. What am I missing?
Mark
Kitfox 5 Vixen
912UL IVO
Hartford, Wisconsin
_____
Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at
AOL Autos <http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851> .
Message 5
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The long and short of it as far as being eligible for sport pilot is, if
you are flying a plane that list gross wt above 1320 or are involved in
an incident or accident, will your insurance cover you? The insurance
companies do have a lot to do with the way we fly.
LeRoy
Message 6
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Only for folks that buy insurance. There are some that self insure.
John Hart
KF IV
Wilburton, OK
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Teresa Staley
Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 12:49 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Sport Pilot
The long and short of it as far as being eligible for sport pilot is, if you
are flying a plane that list gross wt above 1320 or are involved in an
incident or accident, will your insurance cover you? The insurance companies
do have a lot to do with the way we fly.
LeRoy
Message 7
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| Subject: | Four New Email Lists At Matronics!! |
Dear Listers,
I have added four new Lists to the Matronics line up today. These include the
following categories:
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All services are enabled and now available including Search, Browse, Digest, Archives,
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Zenith640:
http://www.matronics.com/navigator?zenith640-list
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http://www.matronics.com/navigator?zenith701801-list
To subscribe, go to the Matronics Email List Subscription Form:
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To check the new Lists out on the Matronics Forum go here:
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Enjoy the new Lists!! Don't forget me during the Fund Raiser! :-)
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Light Sport Rules? |
The "fact" that the aircraft must have meet the LSA criteria continuously since
new has a lot of effect on everyone. I converted an Ercoupe 415 C to a 415 D
changing the gross weight from 1250 to 1400. I did it after the initial talk
about LSA, but before the final rule was out. At that time, the max gross weight
was going to be 1232. The 'coupe was over that anyway, so I thought that
I might as well do the conversion. A month or two latter, the final rule came
out saying the max weight was 1320. I was going to just convert it back, but
OH NO.
I think that what caused the rule to not allow it was the fact that the Cesna 120/140
group tried to get around the rule by getting a 337 approved by a local
FSDO to reduce the max gross weight of the 120 to 1320. The Cesna met all the
criteria except the max weight. Now, armed with a precident, they moved toward
making most of the little Cesnas fit the catagory. Of course the FAA could
see that this tactic could and would be used to include many planes into the
catagory that really shouldn't be, and since the cesna guys already had an approved
337, they added the requirement that the plane has to have ALWAYS met the
rule.
I was not able to convert my 'coupe back, and took a pretty large financial hit
when I sold it because it was not "light sport".
I am not saying it's right, but at least I understand why it is.
Louie
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179468#179468
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Light Sport Rules? |
Modifications of Aircraft To Meet the Light-Sport Aircraft Definition
As stated above in the
section titled Modifications of Aircraft
To Meet the Light-Sport Aircraft
Definition, a sport pilot may not fly an
aircraft with a standard airworthiness
certificate that has been modified to
meet the light-sport aircraft definition.
Federal Register / Vol. 69, No. 143 / Tuesday, July 27, 2004 / Rules and Regulations
44793
It doesnt say ANY aircraft, it states aircraft with a standard airworthiness
certificate. Period.
The way it reads, it simply does not apply to experimental aircraft. As stated
in the post above, it was to keep "normal" ie. cessna / piper etc. from changing
over to LSA.
As anyone who reads, or deals with the laws knows, the booger is in the details.
That is how murders get off on a technicality. If you apply the ruling as
it is written in black and white it seems obvious. The issue is with people who
do not take the time to actually read the rules and just rely on what joe blow
says and take it for the gospel. You need to take the time to look it up
and read it for yourselves, then come back and have an informed discussion.
Just my .02. Put that with 5.00 and you can get a cup of coffee at Starbucks
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
95% complete
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179478#179478
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Series 5 Light Sport |
Guy Buchanan wrote:
> HOORAY! HOORAY!
>
> SOMEONE has finally gone the distance and found some
> DEFINITIVE information. (I hope.) Jay, may we have a source for this
> quote? I'd like to know who it came from so we can ascertain their credentials.
>
> Now before anyone thinks I was rooting either way, I wasn't
> and I'm not. Indeed I hoped that Steve was right and that he would
> publish definitive proof sooner or later. All I wanted was data, not opinion.
>
> At 09:46 AM 4/25/2008, you wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Did you not like the answer from EAA?
> > Jay C.
> >
> >
>
> Guy Buchanan
> San Diego, CA
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>
> Do not archive
Guy,
When you quote something direct from the ruling or FR how much more definitive
can you get? Do you mean to tell me that you think someone elses interpretation
of words that are in black and white is more definitive than the words themselves?
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
95% complete
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179480#179480
Message 11
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| Subject: | Light Sport Rules? |
Exercise in the power of FAA?
Lack of knowledge on the behalf of legislators?
Just a couple of ideas from north of the 49th.
Sigtaturea
Noel Loveys
Campbellton, NL, Canada
CDN AME intern, PP-Rec
C-FINB, Kitfox III-A
582 B box, Ivo IFA, Aerocet 1100 floats
noelloveys@yahoo.ca
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RRTRACK@AOL.COM
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 11:59 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Light Sport Rules?
Can any one explain "WHY" if an LSA qualified plane is flown with an IFA
prop or over 1320# take off weight even once it should be disqualified
forever as an LSA?
All that should matter is "Does it fit the qualifications now". I just would
like to know why they made the rule the way they did.
Mark
Kitfox 5 Vixen
912UL IVO
Hartford, Wisconsin
_____
Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at
AOL Autos <http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851> .
Message 12
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What I keep hearing is "ramp check" I want to hear from some pilots that
have been flying for years and hear stories of "ramp check" I'm legal,
although my 4 has left the strip many times over gross. I also cant fly at night
vfr under sport pilot rules, But I do it and i'm sure many do... Tell me some
ramp check stories why I shouldnt bend the rules to fly by my own set of
rules or standards. Please leave the insurance related stories out...
Steve Bennett KF 4 classic 1200 912 speedwing Flying in North Carolina
and wherever else I can. P.S. My kit averages 3.58 GPH
**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car
listings at AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
Message 13
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Steve are you legal as a private pilot or are you sport pilot rated ? if private
then why worry
--------
FLY FUN FLY LOW FLY SLOW
John Perry
Kitfox 2 N718PD
582 cbox 2:62-1 IVO IFA
1220 Full Lotus
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179503#179503
Message 14
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John, Sport pilot rt now. I'm 7 hrs and another test and checkride from
private pilot... I'm a former ultralight pilot so my passion is sport pilot
Steve Bennett (not Benesh)
**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car
listings at AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
Message 15
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| Subject: | Great Lakes Area kitfox Fly-In |
Lake Field Airport,[CQA],Celina Ohio,Welcomes all Kitfox and there
pilots,and GA aircraft,to the Great Lakes Area Kitfox Fly-In, Sunday
May 11th 2008,at 12:00pm noon,,west central OHIO,look for Grand Lake
St.Marys,the largest lake in Ohio,we are at the south west corner,you
can not miss us..Any Kitfox Pilot flying in there KF,there BBQ lunch
will be FREE..and after lunch we are having a BOMB Drop, and a SPOT
Landing contest..it will be a BLAST..bring tie downs..come out and see
your Kitfox family,and friends.for a fun day.Home Base to STEVE
SHINABERY N554KF KF2 little mighty 582
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