---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 04/26/08: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:33 AM - Re: Re: Series 5 Light Sport (John W. Hart) 2. 05:46 AM - Re: Light Sport Rules? (John W. Hart) 3. 07:05 AM - Re: Light Sport Rules? (RRTRACK@aol.com) 4. 07:35 AM - Re: Light Sport Rules? (John W. Hart) 5. 10:56 AM - Sport Pilot (Teresa Staley) 6. 01:18 PM - Re: Sport Pilot (John W. Hart) 7. 02:54 PM - Four New Email Lists At Matronics!! (Matt Dralle) 8. 04:06 PM - Re: Light Sport Rules? (vetdrem) 9. 05:08 PM - Re: Light Sport Rules? (akflyer) 10. 05:13 PM - Re: Series 5 Light Sport (akflyer) 11. 05:20 PM - Re: Light Sport Rules? (Noel Loveys) 12. 07:03 PM - Re: Sport Pilot (Sbennett3@aol.com) 13. 07:18 PM - Re: Sport Pilot (eskflyer) 14. 07:38 PM - Re: Re: Sport Pilot (Sbennett3@aol.com) 15. 09:27 PM - Great Lakes Area kitfox Fly-In (steve shinabery) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:33:55 AM PST US From: "John W. Hart" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Series 5 Light Sport No. Those "vehicles" were illegal to begin with without an FAA waiver of Part 103. See: http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr &sid=86f198b84e879bd70a58f4d7617b8376&rgn=div5&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.3.16& idno=14#14:2.0.1.3.16.1.9.3 For explanation of E-LSA See: http://www.sportpilot.org/learn/lsa/likely_lsa.html John Hart From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clint Bazzill Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 8:54 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Series 5 Light Sport Please correct me if I am wrong. My understanding of E-LSA are referred to aircraft that were unlicensed 2 place ultra light aircraft that fell in the no mans area. They were licensed in the category because they were not built by the owner and could not be licensed as amateur built experimental, also they could no longer be flown legally as a ultra light with one person. Clint _____ From: helili@chahtatushka.net Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Series 5 Light Sport The aircraft cannot be issued an experimental or E-LSA special airworthiness certificate specifying a maximum takeoff weight of more than 1320 pounds and flown under sport pilot rules. Any builder can specify the maximum takeoff weight of his aircraft, and have the special airworthiness certificate list the maximum takeoff weight as 1320 pounds or less and operate under Sport Pilot rules. If the you specify the maximum takeoff weight in the application for certification at 1320, that's what you will get. If you specify the maximum takeoff weight at 1500, that's what you will get, and it don't fit light sport rules. My Experimental (not E-LSA) KF IV shows a Gross Weight of 1250 on the data plate, and in the paperwork. The kit producers specified gross weight for the finished kit as 1200. The builder made a few mods, said he wanted to have the Special Airworthiness Certificate to show a gross weight of 1250 on his application and that's what he got. Works the other way too. John Hart KF IV Wilburton, OK From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RRTRACK@aol.com Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 2:54 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Series 5 Light Sport As far as a Sport Pilot using an experimental homebuilt aircraft. I believe it is required to test the flight characteristics at gross weight during the 40 hour phase and record the results in the log book. At least that is what I have done with experimentals I built and test flew. I used sand or salt bags to add passenger weight. And also conducted flight tests with low and full fuel at near gross weights. I love the concept of flying a Kitfox 5 to 7 registered at 1500 gross as a sport plane by limiting the take off weight to 1320#. Hopefully it can be done. Keep me posted. Mark Kitfox 5 Vixen 912UL IVO Hartford, Wisconsin _____ Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:46:31 AM PST US From: "John W. Hart" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Light Sport Rules? Can't say why the FAA makes any rule( and I used to work for them). The only explanation I ever heard, and it wasn't in a rule or even written, is that it is an in-flight adjustable prop was a "complicated" device and the rules were being written for "uncomplicated" aircraft so pilots with a minimum amount of experience could operate them. As far as the weight, I ain't got a clue! John Hart KF IV Wilburton, OK From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RRTRACK@AOL.COM Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 9:29 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Light Sport Rules? Can any one explain "WHY" if an LSA qualified plane is flown with an IFA prop or over 1320# take off weight even once it should be disqualified forever as an LSA? All that should matter is "Does it fit the qualifications now". I just would like to know why they made the rule the way they did. Mark Kitfox 5 Vixen 912UL IVO Hartford, Wisconsin _____ Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:05:48 AM PST US From: RRTRACK@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Light Sport Rules? I fully agree with the limits put on LSA planes. An IFA prop does add complication and should not be allowed for LSA use. But if it was removed and a ground adjustable prop installed for LSA use, why should it be disqualified forever? Just makes no sense to me. If this was written to keep more complicated planes from being modified to meet the LSA requirements, I still ask why, all that should matter is does it meet the LSA requirements now. This part of the rule sounds more like politics than common sense. What am I missing? Mark Kitfox 5 Vixen 912UL IVO Hartford, Wisconsin **************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:35:22 AM PST US From: "John W. Hart" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Light Sport Rules? The only answer that I can think of in that light is, "The FAA has spoken!". They write the rules under a mandate of Congress through Public Law. Public Law is changeable, BUT, it takes a lot of time, not to mention money, to do it from an individual level. The legislative branch of the Federal government can force a change , BUT, they have to be convinced to do it. Me, I ain't got the time or money to fight it, not to mention the inclination. I'd rather go fly for the few years I got left. John Hart KF IV Wilburton, OK From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RRTRACK@aol.com Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 9:02 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Light Sport Rules? I fully agree with the limits put on LSA planes. An IFA prop does add complication and should not be allowed for LSA use. But if it was removed and a ground adjustable prop installed for LSA use, why should it be disqualified forever? Just makes no sense to me. If this was written to keep more complicated planes from being modified to meet the LSA requirements, I still ask why, all that should matter is does it meet the LSA requirements now. This part of the rule sounds more like politics than common sense. What am I missing? Mark Kitfox 5 Vixen 912UL IVO Hartford, Wisconsin _____ Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:56:30 AM PST US From: "Teresa Staley" Subject: Kitfox-List: Sport Pilot The long and short of it as far as being eligible for sport pilot is, if you are flying a plane that list gross wt above 1320 or are involved in an incident or accident, will your insurance cover you? The insurance companies do have a lot to do with the way we fly. LeRoy ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:18:25 PM PST US From: "John W. Hart" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Sport Pilot Only for folks that buy insurance. There are some that self insure. John Hart KF IV Wilburton, OK From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Teresa Staley Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 12:49 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Sport Pilot The long and short of it as far as being eligible for sport pilot is, if you are flying a plane that list gross wt above 1320 or are involved in an incident or accident, will your insurance cover you? The insurance companies do have a lot to do with the way we fly. LeRoy ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:54:47 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Kitfox-List: Four New Email Lists At Matronics!! Dear Listers, I have added four new Lists to the Matronics line up today. These include the following categories: Citabria-List Citabria, Decathlon, Scout, and Champ Zenith601-List Zenair Zodiac CH 601 Zenith640-List Zenair Zodiac CH 640 Zenith701801-List Zenair STOL CH 701 and CH 801 All services are enabled and now available including Search, Browse, Digest, Archives, Forums, Chat, etc., etc. etc...: Citabria: http://www.matronics.com/navigator?citabria-list Zenith601: http://www.matronics.com/navigator?zenith601-list Zenith640: http://www.matronics.com/navigator?zenith640-list Zenith701801: http://www.matronics.com/navigator?zenith701801-list To subscribe, go to the Matronics Email List Subscription Form: http://www.matronics.com/subscribe To check the new Lists out on the Matronics Forum go here: http://forums.matronics.com Enjoy the new Lists!! Don't forget me during the Fund Raiser! :-) Best regards, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:06:12 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Light Sport Rules? From: "vetdrem" The "fact" that the aircraft must have meet the LSA criteria continuously since new has a lot of effect on everyone. I converted an Ercoupe 415 C to a 415 D changing the gross weight from 1250 to 1400. I did it after the initial talk about LSA, but before the final rule was out. At that time, the max gross weight was going to be 1232. The 'coupe was over that anyway, so I thought that I might as well do the conversion. A month or two latter, the final rule came out saying the max weight was 1320. I was going to just convert it back, but OH NO. I think that what caused the rule to not allow it was the fact that the Cesna 120/140 group tried to get around the rule by getting a 337 approved by a local FSDO to reduce the max gross weight of the 120 to 1320. The Cesna met all the criteria except the max weight. Now, armed with a precident, they moved toward making most of the little Cesnas fit the catagory. Of course the FAA could see that this tactic could and would be used to include many planes into the catagory that really shouldn't be, and since the cesna guys already had an approved 337, they added the requirement that the plane has to have ALWAYS met the rule. I was not able to convert my 'coupe back, and took a pretty large financial hit when I sold it because it was not "light sport". I am not saying it's right, but at least I understand why it is. Louie Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179468#179468 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:08:35 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Light Sport Rules? From: "akflyer" Modifications of Aircraft To Meet the Light-Sport Aircraft Definition As stated above in the section titled Modifications of Aircraft To Meet the Light-Sport Aircraft Definition, a sport pilot may not fly an aircraft with a standard airworthiness certificate that has been modified to meet the light-sport aircraft definition. Federal Register / Vol. 69, No. 143 / Tuesday, July 27, 2004 / Rules and Regulations 44793 It doesnt say ANY aircraft, it states aircraft with a standard airworthiness certificate. Period. The way it reads, it simply does not apply to experimental aircraft. As stated in the post above, it was to keep "normal" ie. cessna / piper etc. from changing over to LSA. As anyone who reads, or deals with the laws knows, the booger is in the details. That is how murders get off on a technicality. If you apply the ruling as it is written in black and white it seems obvious. The issue is with people who do not take the time to actually read the rules and just rely on what joe blow says and take it for the gospel. You need to take the time to look it up and read it for yourselves, then come back and have an informed discussion. Just my .02. Put that with 5.00 and you can get a cup of coffee at Starbucks -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 95% complete Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179478#179478 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:13:32 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Series 5 Light Sport From: "akflyer" Guy Buchanan wrote: > HOORAY! HOORAY! > > SOMEONE has finally gone the distance and found some > DEFINITIVE information. (I hope.) Jay, may we have a source for this > quote? I'd like to know who it came from so we can ascertain their credentials. > > Now before anyone thinks I was rooting either way, I wasn't > and I'm not. Indeed I hoped that Steve was right and that he would > publish definitive proof sooner or later. All I wanted was data, not opinion. > > At 09:46 AM 4/25/2008, you wrote: > > > > > > > > > Did you not like the answer from EAA? > > Jay C. > > > > > > Guy Buchanan > San Diego, CA > K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. > > Do not archive Guy, When you quote something direct from the ruling or FR how much more definitive can you get? Do you mean to tell me that you think someone elses interpretation of words that are in black and white is more definitive than the words themselves? -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 95% complete Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179480#179480 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:20:40 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Light Sport Rules? Exercise in the power of FAA? Lack of knowledge on the behalf of legislators? Just a couple of ideas from north of the 49th. Sigtaturea Noel Loveys Campbellton, NL, Canada CDN AME intern, PP-Rec C-FINB, Kitfox III-A 582 B box, Ivo IFA, Aerocet 1100 floats noelloveys@yahoo.ca From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RRTRACK@AOL.COM Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 11:59 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Light Sport Rules? Can any one explain "WHY" if an LSA qualified plane is flown with an IFA prop or over 1320# take off weight even once it should be disqualified forever as an LSA? All that should matter is "Does it fit the qualifications now". I just would like to know why they made the rule the way they did. Mark Kitfox 5 Vixen 912UL IVO Hartford, Wisconsin _____ Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:03:17 PM PST US From: Sbennett3@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Sport Pilot What I keep hearing is "ramp check" I want to hear from some pilots that have been flying for years and hear stories of "ramp check" I'm legal, although my 4 has left the strip many times over gross. I also cant fly at night vfr under sport pilot rules, But I do it and i'm sure many do... Tell me some ramp check stories why I shouldnt bend the rules to fly by my own set of rules or standards. Please leave the insurance related stories out... Steve Bennett KF 4 classic 1200 912 speedwing Flying in North Carolina and wherever else I can. P.S. My kit averages 3.58 GPH **************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:18:16 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Sport Pilot From: "eskflyer" Steve are you legal as a private pilot or are you sport pilot rated ? if private then why worry -------- FLY FUN FLY LOW FLY SLOW John Perry Kitfox 2 N718PD 582 cbox 2:62-1 IVO IFA 1220 Full Lotus Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=179503#179503 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:38:57 PM PST US From: Sbennett3@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Sport Pilot John, Sport pilot rt now. I'm 7 hrs and another test and checkride from private pilot... I'm a former ultralight pilot so my passion is sport pilot Steve Bennett (not Benesh) **************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:27:33 PM PST US From: steve shinabery Subject: Kitfox-List: Great Lakes Area kitfox Fly-In Lake Field Airport,[CQA],Celina Ohio,Welcomes all Kitfox and there pilots,and GA aircraft,to the Great Lakes Area Kitfox Fly-In, Sunday May 11th 2008,at 12:00pm noon,,west central OHIO,look for Grand Lake St.Marys,the largest lake in Ohio,we are at the south west corner,you can not miss us..Any Kitfox Pilot flying in there KF,there BBQ lunch will be FREE..and after lunch we are having a BOMB Drop, and a SPOT Landing contest..it will be a BLAST..bring tie downs..come out and see your Kitfox family,and friends.for a fun day.Home Base to STEVE SHINABERY N554KF KF2 little mighty 582 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.