Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:03 AM - Re: STalled (Michel Verheughe)
2. 03:21 AM - Re: STalled (dave)
3. 06:08 AM - : Re: STalled (Michel Verheughe)
4. 07:43 AM - Re: : Re: STalled (Ted Palamarek)
5. 07:49 AM - Re: STalled (Tom Jones)
6. 08:33 AM - Re: Re: STalled (Cudnohufsky's)
7. 09:41 AM - Re: removing plastic cover on flaperons (Lynn Matteson)
8. 09:49 AM - Re: Re: STalled (Lynn Matteson)
9. 10:15 AM - Re: Re: STalled (Lynn Matteson)
10. 10:34 AM - Re: Slow flying... (Lynn Matteson)
11. 12:10 PM - Re: STalled (Michel Verheughe)
12. 01:16 PM - Re: Re: STalled (Lynn Matteson)
13. 01:47 PM - Fly-in at Jackson, Michigan (JXN)...breakfast (Lynn Matteson)
14. 01:47 PM - Re: removing plastic cover on flaperons (Tom Jones)
15. 01:57 PM - Re: Slow flying... (Noel Loveys)
16. 02:27 PM - Re: STalled (Michel Verheughe)
17. 04:32 PM - Re: Re: STalled (Noel Loveys)
18. 05:51 PM - Re: Prince P-Tip Composite Prop (FlyboyTR)
19. 07:20 PM - Re: Re: removing plastic cover on flaperons (Jim_and_Lucy Chuk)
20. 07:58 PM - Re: STalled (kitfoxmike)
21. 08:04 PM - Fly-In Rockford, IL (Pat Reilly)
Message 1
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Guys, I went for a few traffic pattern yesterday. I needed to check my radio/intercom
with the nearby CTR tower. Anyway, since I read about the Kitfox flaps
on this list, I thought I should try it. My flaps are adjusted to move only 10
degrees. I never use them because I don't see the point and I don't really like
the feeling of it; it pulls the nose downward without really adding much drag.
I always adjust speed and altitude with sideslips on final.
Anyway, I was on final with 10 degrees flaps and did a sideslip ... oops, it felt
like my tail stalled! I am not sure and I didn't want to try again. Are you,
guys, sideslipping with the flaps on?
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
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> Anyway, I was on final with 10 degrees flaps and did a sideslip ... oops, it
felt like my tail stalled! I am not sure and I didn't want to try again. Are you,
guys, sideslipping with the flaps on
Yep !! I sideslip with 20 degrees down. That is the most i use for landing.
Remeber I have a model 4 which is an entire different control system that the Models
1,2 and 3 . They we not nearly as useful as the IV model.
Dave
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186646#186646
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| Subject: | Re: : Re: STalled |
On Jun 7, 2008, at 12:19 PM, dave wrote:
> Yep !! I sideslip with 20 degrees down. That is the most i use for
> landing.
Hum, I thought you would, Dave! :-)
I'll have to try again then, but at a few thousand feet. I wonder why
it felt like I was loosing control of my tail. ... Mind you, my wife
asks me sometimes the same question! :-)
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
Do not archive
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| Subject: | Re: : Re: STalled |
Michel
Very good comment on the wife question --- still laughing.
Ted
Edmonton, Alberta
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Hum, I thought you would, Dave! :-)
I'll have to try again then, but at a few thousand feet. I wonder why
it felt like I was loosing control of my tail. ... Mind you, my wife
asks me sometimes the same question! :-)
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
Do not archive
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jareds(at)verizon.net wrote:
> The other day i was landing on the missouri river here in SD to fish and
> had never pulled the flap handle all the way up when taking off.
> Fortunately i had plenty of room but on a 80 degree day with thin air
> the left wing stalled and i nearly wrecked had i not aborted the landing.
> How does one know what "full flaps" are on the model IV and where is the
> full flap setting?
Jareds,
Here is a link that contains so good information on the theory and proceedures
to rigging the Model 4 flaperons.
http://www.sportflight.com/cgi-bin/uploader.pl?action=main&category=Text/Articles
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186665#186665
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Michel,
I would pull about 30% flaps (not sure what that was in degrees) on my 4 and
do forward slips on final with no problems.
Lloyd C
Model 5 912
Northern Mi
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michel
Verheughe
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 1:59 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: STalled
Guys, I went for a few traffic pattern yesterday. I needed to check my
radio/intercom with the nearby CTR tower. Anyway, since I read about the
Kitfox flaps on this list, I thought I should try it. My flaps are adjusted
to move only 10 degrees. I never use them because I don't see the point and
I don't really like the feeling of it; it pulls the nose downward without
really adding much drag. I always adjust speed and altitude with sideslips
on final.
Anyway, I was on final with 10 degrees flaps and did a sideslip ... oops, it
felt like my tail stalled! I am not sure and I didn't want to try again. Are
you, guys, sideslipping with the flaps on?
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
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Checked by AVG.
11:17 AM
Checked by AVG.
11:17 AM
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| Subject: | Re: removing plastic cover on flaperons |
Just for the record, Jim, I don't think I said "paint stripper" as
such. I used paint thinner...mineral spirits. I would have been real
timid about using it near the foam "ribs" inside the flaperons, but
you solved that worry by testing it on other foam...good show. Sounds
like you've discovered another workable way around the flap film
problem.
Lynn
do not archive
On Jun 6, 2008, at 11:32 PM, Jim_and_Lucy Chuk wrote:
> Well today I finally got that blasted stuff off!!! I think what
> bakes it on is probably light. one side was much worse than the
> other on both flaperons. I think I tried just about everything to
> loosen it and this is what I found really worked. I read your post
> Lynn about the paint stripper so I tried it. I bought a can of
> Klean-Strip KS-3 Premium Stripper, it comes in a copper colored
> can. Put it on fairly thick and then covered it with some plastic
> to keep it from drying out. Left it for an hour or more depending
> on what side I was working on. On the easier side, it would come
> off in big sheets, on the bad side, I scrapped it with a piece of
> wood and the worst bits I used my fingernails. I tried some of the
> stripper on a bit of foam from the strut fairing and it didn't seem
> to hurt that foam at all so I was a bit less worried about the foam
> in the flaperons. When I was done, I washed the flaperons with
> soap and water and then rinsed them real well. Bare aluminum never
> looked so nice!! Hope this is a help to others, it sure worked for
> me. Jim Chuk Avids Kitfox 4 Mn
>
>
> arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-Listp://
> forums.matronics.comblank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> Instantly invite friends from Facebook and other social networks to
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> ============================================================ _-
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Message 8
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I am, Michel. I've done it with 10 and 20 (my plane's limit) of
flaps, but usually use only 10 if landing crosswind...I like a bit
more aileron availability in a crosswind. Did you maybe slip away
from the wind? I have to think my slip through before I do it, and
sometimes find myself putting the wrong wing down...quickly
corrected, of course. But then, mine is a Model IV, not 3.
Lynn
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 w/520+ hrs.
On Jun 7, 2008, at 2:58 AM, Michel Verheughe wrote:
> Guys, I went for a few traffic pattern yesterday. I needed to check
> my radio/intercom with the nearby CTR tower. Anyway, since I read
> about the Kitfox flaps on this list, I thought I should try it. My
> flaps are adjusted to move only 10 degrees. I never use them
> because I don't see the point and I don't really like the feeling
> of it; it pulls the nose downward without really adding much drag.
> I always adjust speed and altitude with sideslips on final.
> Anyway, I was on final with 10 degrees flaps and did a sideslip ...
> oops, it felt like my tail stalled! I am not sure and I didn't want
> to try again. Are you, guys, sideslipping with the flaps on?
>
> Cheers,
> Michel Verheughe
> Norway
> Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
>
>
> <pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
>
> List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List</a>
> forums.matronics.com</a>
> www.matronics.com/contribution</a>
>
> </b></font></pre>
Message 9
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From my experience, the most important aspect of rigging is to have
a digital inclinometer (level) or Smart Level, and those wooden
blocks that clamp around the flaperons. Then read and follow the
directions in the builder's manual. If you can't get the exact angles
called for....26 on the right side, and 32 on the left side,
according to my manual...they (Skystar via phone call way back when)
said to split the difference, that is, 27 and 31 for example, with
the 15049 bellcrank at 11.4 degrees from bottom of aircraft. This was
changed to 10 degrees in the later-published manual.
What limits my flap deflection is the length of the slot in the
console (I had to lengthen it a bit), and 20 is plenty of flap for
me and considered maximum for the Model IV, I read somewhere.
Lynn
Kitfox IV Speedster w/2200 Jabiru w 520+ hrs
On Jun 6, 2008, at 10:58 AM, jareds wrote:
>
> At this point i am leaning towards the fact that originally skystar
> apparently had a sticker for flaperon handle that indicated an
> upper limit.
> Full up on handle is just too far on a take off.
> But a comment in one of the responses about the flaperons being
> "out of rig" made me wonder.
> If a flaperon is out of rig, wouldnt the plane drift or have a
> tendancy to tip if they were not set evenly?
> How about the twist of the wing?
>
> Comments welcome.
>
>
> LarryM wrote:
>
>>
>> I also.
>>
>> [/quote]
>> I set mine so maximum flap just allows full aileron travel both
>> ways. With this setting I've never had a premature stall.
>>
>>
>> Guy Buchanan
>> San Diego, CA
>> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.[/
>> quote]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185973#185973
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Slow flying... |
I think you're right, Guy....let's see....mains first, then gently
touch the tailwheel, allowing it to caster around, then stick in gut
to plant the tail...no problem!
Hmmmmm....come to think about it, go-arounds would be a bitch!
Lynn
do not archive
On Jun 6, 2008, at 6:35 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote:
>
> At 09:39 AM 6/6/2008, you wrote:
>> I'm not trying to claim any
>> records, but it would be informative to know if anybody has slowed
>> more than this, and what problems, if any, should one look out for
>> doing this.
>
> Well. . . landing will be a little tricky. ;-)
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> San Diego, CA
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>
> Do not archive
>
>
Message 11
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> From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt@jps.net]
> Did you maybe slip away from the wind?
... Er, what do you mean, Lynn? When I sideslip on final to either slow down or
increase to sink rate, I push on the right pedal and push the stick to the left.
That's what gives me the best view of the runway from the left-hand seat.
The wind is usually ahead. Of course, in a crosswind, it's different. But ...
I don't fly much in crosswind. My wife doesn't allow me! :-)
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
Do not archive
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I always did the same thing...right pedal, and stick to the left,
until my instructor and I were on our dual x-country, and I did just
that, but the wind was from the right, and he grabbed the stick and
went right stick (right aileron down) and left pedal, explaining
"always put the wing down on the windy side." We had always slipped
with right pedal, left wing down, because it just happened that the
wind was always from the left when we needed to slip, and I got it
into my head that that was always the way to do a slip. But it turns
out that you have to figure where the wind is coming from before
deciding which way to slip. Better teach your wife the old saying:
"he who does not fly in crosswinds, does not fly often." (but don't
let it get into a family feud)
I feel more comfortable slipping R pedal, L aileron, but the wind
direction has the last say.
Lynn
On Jun 7, 2008, at 3:05 PM, Michel Verheughe wrote:
>> From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt@jps.net]
>> Did you maybe slip away from the wind?
>
> ... Er, what do you mean, Lynn? When I sideslip on final to either
> slow down or increase to sink rate, I push on the right pedal and
> push the stick to the left. That's what gives me the best view of
> the runway from the left-hand seat. The wind is usually ahead. Of
> course, in a crosswind, it's different. But ... I don't fly much in
> crosswind. My wife doesn't allow me! :-)
>
> Cheers,
> Michel Verheughe
> Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
> Do not archive
>
>
> <pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
>
> List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List</a>
> forums.matronics.com</a>
> www.matronics.com/contribution</a>
>
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| Subject: | Fly-in at Jackson, Michigan (JXN)...breakfast |
Jeez, I almost forgot to mention the "all you can eat
breakfast" ($6.00) fly-in...the 40th annual...at JXN Sunday morning.
There are always tons of airplanes there, as well as cars, hot rods,
antiques,street rods trucks, motorcycles, (so the flier says), so get
it together and come on in. It goes from 7:00am to 12:00pm (noon).
Put on by our EAA Chapter 304.
If for no other reason see our 4-across, 4-6 deep, pancake grill in
action...I'm writing this under the influence of 1/2 Budweiser, so
don't hold me to accuracy. : )
Lynn
Kitfox pilot (to keep it legal with the mod. guys) : )
p.s. What the hell, I'll buy b'fast for any Kitfox that shows
up...what say, Malcolm, Marco, Rex, John, Steve, William, Lloyd from
the U.P., Richard, and anybody else I forgot. If the attending 'foxes
get too many in number, I'll hit the Chapter up for reimbursements,
so don't be shy!
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: removing plastic cover on flaperons |
Maybe it is timely to remind anyone taking delivery of a new kit. If the flaperons
still come coated with stick on plastic, take the plastic off soon!
After storage in the rafters of my shop for six years I had to peel that stuff
off a quarter square inch at a time. I couldn't muster the courage to soak them
in turpentine. It took days.
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186710#186710
Message 15
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Lynn:
My instructor had me do the flying backwards while training (C172N)..
We
were about 5000=92 over the field when we pulled the airspeed back to
bout 60
and sure enough slowly but surely we drifted backwards enough that it
was
easy to see. On regular intervals he would have me slow the plane down
and
hang on the prop at full throttle until it stalled.
Wind at the ground was close to 30 and I certainly wouldn=92t have been
flying
solo that day.
Sigtaturea
Noel Loveys
Campbellton, NL, Canada
CDN AME intern, PP-Rec
C-FINB, Kitfox III-A
582 B box, Ivo IFA, Aerocet 1100 floats
noelloveys@yahoo.ca
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
Matteson
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 2:10 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Slow flying...
I just flew my personal best (or is that worst?) slow ground speed,
covering the ground at an amazing 9 mph. The wind was about 220=B0 @ 7,
according to the local (JXN) ATIS, but up at 3000' MSL, it was about
37kt, according to Ft. Wayne, IN "winds aloft" reports. At any rate,
I was being blown at 162mph GPS groundspeed (108mph airspeed) toward
the east, when I decided to turn back and see how slow I could fly
groundspeed into the wind. I was at 3000 MSL, heading about 250=B0, and
I started slowing the plane down. I kept the same 3000 altitude until
I got the groundspeed down to 20 mph, then I started to lose
elevation....about 125fpm on the VSI. I kept throttling back until it
got down to 9mph groundspeed, 55mph airspeed, and I quit playing
games when I got down to 2700' MSL. This was with no flaps, and I
think the rpm was about 1900 at that point...not paying too much
attention to that detail.
I've heard about people flying backwards, and I was pretty close to
that, but chickened out before I got over my head. Has anybody slowed
their Kitfox to a negative groundspeed? I'm not trying to claim any
records, but it would be informative to know if anybody has slowed
more than this, and what problems, if any, should one look out for
doing this.
Lynn
Model IV Speedster, 2200 Jabiru with 520+ hours
Message 16
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> From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt@jps.net]
> I feel more comfortable slipping R pedal, L aileron, but the wind
> direction has the last say.
Oh but I agree, Lynn! I also side slip always with the wing low in the wind, if
it comes from the side. The R pedal, L aileron is only when the wind is in the
axis of the runway. Incidentally my wife sends her regards and say that I am
not allowed to listen to other men! :-)
Seriously, I wonder why I felt that strange feeling that my tail was stalling with
the flaps on. There wasn't much turbulence that day but, sometimes, there
is a bump on final as we fly over a row of trees. Could have been just a coincidence.
Still, I'll try again but this time at high altitude.
I couldn't fly today and probably not tomorrow either. The reason is silly: The
nearby CTR tower we need to call before take-off has one operator sick and because
of that, they don't allow any GA flying. The operator has a hard job: about
20 commercial arrival/departure in 16 hours ... what a stress! :-(
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
Do not archive
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Yes with no difficulties at all other than maintaining a good slip with my
small rudder.
Sigtaturea
Noel Loveys
Campbellton, NL, Canada
CDN AME intern, PP-Rec
C-FINB, Kitfox III-A
582 B box, Ivo IFA, Aerocet 1100 floats
noelloveys@yahoo.ca
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michel
Verheughe
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 4:29 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: STalled
Guys, I went for a few traffic pattern yesterday. I needed to check my
radio/intercom with the nearby CTR tower. Anyway, since I read about the
Kitfox flaps on this list, I thought I should try it. My flaps are adjusted
to move only 10 degrees. I never use them because I don't see the point and
I don't really like the feeling of it; it pulls the nose downward without
really adding much drag. I always adjust speed and altitude with sideslips
on final.
Anyway, I was on final with 10 degrees flaps and did a sideslip ... oops, it
felt like my tail stalled! I am not sure and I didn't want to try again. Are
you, guys, sideslipping with the flaps on?
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
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| Subject: | Re: Prince P-Tip Composite Prop |
I'm using one...but not on a 912. My Vixen has a Continental IO-240. I shipped
my prop back to Prince to have a little pitch taken out. Great performing prop
and it sounds good without being excessively loud. Lonnie Prince has been
a pleasure to work with and stand behind their product. However.........they
are a little slow...but its worth the wait!
Travis :D
--------
Travis Rayner
Mobile, AL
Skystar Vixen, N-789DF
Continental IO-240, Prince P-Tip Prop
ADI-II Autopilot
AnyWhereMap Navigation with weather
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Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: removing plastic cover on flaperons |
The paint stripp0er really made short work of some very stuck on plastic.
Like I said in the earlier post, I tried the stripper on some of the high d
ensity yellow foam in the Kitfox 4 flaperons and it wasn't bothered by the
stripper, this afternoon I tried the stripper on some regular pink styrofoa
m and it ate the foam up. I think the older Kitfoxes had blue foam in the
flaperons and I think the stripper would eat it so caution is advised. Jim
Chuk Avids, Kitfox 4 Mn> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: removing plastic cov
er on flaperons> From: nahsikhs@elltel.net> Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 13:45:26
"Tom Jones" <nahsikhs@elltel.net>> > Maybe it is timely to remind anyone ta
king delivery of a new kit. If the flaperons still come coated with stick o
n plastic, take the plastic off soon!> > After storage in the rafters of my
shop for six years I had to peel that stuff off a quarter square inch at a
time. I couldn't muster the courage to soak them in turpentine. It took da
ys.> > --------> Tom Jones> Classic IV> 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp>
Ellensburg, WA> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matro
===================> > >
_________________________________________________________________
Enjoy 5 GB of free, password-protected online storage.
http://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refre
sh_skydrive_062008
Message 20
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Lynn Matteson wrote:
> I always did the same thing...right pedal, and stick to the left,
> until my instructor and I were on our dual x-country, and I did just
> that, but the wind was from the right, and he grabbed the stick and
> went right stick (right aileron down) and left pedal, explaining
> "always put the wing down on the windy side." We had always slipped
> with right pedal, left wing down, because it just happened that the
> wind was always from the left when we needed to slip, and I got it
> into my head that that was always the way to do a slip. But it turns
> out that you have to figure where the wind is coming from before
> deciding which way to slip. Better teach your wife the old saying:
> "he who does not fly in crosswinds, does not fly often." (but don't
> let it get into a family feud)
> I feel more comfortable slipping R pedal, L aileron, but the wind
> direction has the last say.
>
> Your wife won't let you fly with a cross wind, I hope you are kidding. Heck the
other day I was flying with 16 to 24 gust, with that the sock was a direct
cross on the approach end of the runway. What are you going to do if you take
off with calm winds and 10 minutes later it goes crazy and you have a direct
wind at about 15, circle until it gets better???
>
>
> Lynn
> On Jun 7, 2008, at 3:05 PM, Michel Verheughe wrote:
>
>
> > > From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt@jps.net]
> > > Did you maybe slip away from the wind?
> >
> > ... Er, what do you mean, Lynn? When I sideslip on final to either
> > slow down or increase to sink rate, I push on the right pedal and
> > push the stick to the left. That's what gives me the best view of
> > the runway from the left-hand seat. The wind is usually ahead. Of
> > course, in a crosswind, it's different. But ... I don't fly much in
> > crosswind. My wife doesn't allow me! :-)
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Michel Verheughe
> > Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
> > Do not archive
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
> > forums.matronics.com
> > www.matronics.com/contribution
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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Message 21
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| Subject: | Fly-In Rockford, IL |
Midwest Kitfoxers attention! EAA Chapter 22 is hosting a Light Sport
Day Fly In Saturday June 21 At Cottonwood Airport 1C8 on the North west
side of Rockford, IL.. I would like to see as many Kitfoxes as possible
in attendance. Room and dinner Saturday evening will be awarded by Pat
Reilly of R&R Aviation to the Kitfox that travels farthest to attend.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
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