Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:26 AM - Re: STalled (Michel Verheughe)
2. 02:38 AM - Re: Re: STalled (Lynn Matteson)
3. 07:18 AM - Re: STalled (Tom Beirne)
4. 07:24 AM - ethanol in autogas (bob noffs)
5. 07:25 AM - Fw: application of vg (bob noffs)
6. 07:54 AM - Re: STalled (Michel Verheughe)
7. 08:10 AM - Re: application of vg (Tom Jones)
8. 08:33 AM - Re: Fly-in at Jackson, Michigan (JXN)...breakfast (Lynn Matteson)
9. 08:34 AM - Re: Re: STalled (Lynn Matteson)
10. 08:45 AM - Re: Slow flying... (Lynn Matteson)
11. 09:08 AM - Re: Slow flying... (Scott)
12. 09:21 AM - Re: Slow flying... (akflyer)
13. 09:34 AM - Re: redoing panel (frank)
14. 09:43 AM - Re: Slow flying... (akflyer)
15. 09:51 AM - Re: STalled (akflyer)
16. 10:05 AM - (bob noffs)
17. 10:06 AM - Re: Re: STalled (Michael Gibbs)
18. 10:29 AM - Re: STalled (dave)
19. 10:31 AM - Re: Slow flying... (dave)
20. 11:19 AM - Re: STalled (akflyer)
21. 12:05 PM - Re: Slow flying... ()
22. 12:09 PM - Re: STalled (Tom Beirne)
23. 12:12 PM - Re: Re: STalled (Michael Gibbs)
24. 12:28 PM - Re: Re: STalled (John W. Hart)
25. 12:36 PM - Re: Slow flying... (John W. Hart)
26. 12:44 PM - Re: STalled (Michel Verheughe)
27. 01:02 PM - Re: Re: STalled (Michael Gibbs)
28. 03:09 PM - New Full lotus (waterhawg)
29. 03:15 PM - Re: STalled (akflyer)
30. 06:59 PM - Re: Re: STalled (Steven Didier)
31. 08:14 PM - Re: No Title (Tom Jones)
32. 08:51 PM - Re: application of vg (rufas)
Message 1
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> From: kitfoxmike [customtrans@qwest.net]
> Your wife won't let you fly with a cross wind, I hope you are kidding.
Of course, I am kidding, my wife has nothing to say about my flying. It was an
intentional politically uncorrect form of humour. ;-)
There was once I landed my model 3 and at the end of the roll, even with my feet
pressing to the end the left pedal, the plane veered into the wind. The nearby
ATIS gave 270 at 12 knots when I landed on runway 18. Should it blow much more
crosswind (which is extremely rare where I live) I might consider landing
somewhere else or, land on the grass, on the wind, between the runway and the
parallel taxiway. I once asked the airfield manager if I could do that and he
said that it was okay as long as there was no other planes in the circuit and
that I made my intentions clear on the frequency.
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
Message 2
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Notice to Michel:
In the post below, it appears that I (Lynn) wrote the part that says:
"Your wife won't let you fly with a cross wind, I hope you are
kidding. Heck the other day I was flying with 16 to 24 gust, with
that the sock was a direct cross on the approach end of the runway.
What are you going to do if you take off with calm winds and 10
minutes later it goes crazy and you have a direct wind at about 15,
circle until it gets better???"
This part was inserted between my post and my signature, making it
look, at least on my screen, that I made that statement, which I did
not. While the thought may be true, I didn't post it.
Lynn
On Jun 7, 2008, at 10:53 PM, kitfoxmike wrote:
> <customtrans@qwest.net>
>
>
> Lynn Matteson wrote:
>> I always did the same thing...right pedal, and stick to the left,
>> until my instructor and I were on our dual x-country, and I did just
>> that, but the wind was from the right, and he grabbed the stick and
>> went right stick (right aileron down) and left pedal, explaining
>> "always put the wing down on the windy side." We had always slipped
>> with right pedal, left wing down, because it just happened that the
>> wind was always from the left when we needed to slip, and I got it
>> into my head that that was always the way to do a slip. But it turns
>> out that you have to figure where the wind is coming from before
>> deciding which way to slip. Better teach your wife the old saying:
>> "he who does not fly in crosswinds, does not fly often." (but don't
>> let it get into a family feud)
>> I feel more comfortable slipping R pedal, L aileron, but the wind
>> direction has the last say.
>>
>> Your wife won't let you fly with a cross wind, I hope you are
>> kidding. Heck the other day I was flying with 16 to 24 gust, with
>> that the sock was a direct cross on the approach end of the
>> runway. What are you going to do if you take off with calm winds
>> and 10 minutes later it goes crazy and you have a direct wind at
>> about 15, circle until it gets better???
>>
>>
>> Lynn
>> On Jun 7, 2008, at 3:05 PM, Michel Verheughe wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt@jps.net]
>>>> Did you maybe slip away from the wind?
>>>
>>> ... Er, what do you mean, Lynn? When I sideslip on final to either
>>> slow down or increase to sink rate, I push on the right pedal and
>>> push the stick to the left. That's what gives me the best view of
>>> the runway from the left-hand seat. The wind is usually ahead. Of
>>> course, in a crosswind, it's different. But ... I don't fly much in
>>> crosswind. My wife doesn't allow me! :-)
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Michel Verheughe
>>> Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
>>> Do not archive
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
>>> forums.matronics.com
>>> www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186744#186744
>
>
Message 3
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Michel wrote:
>
> Anyway, I was on final with 10 degrees flaps and did a sideslip ... oops, it
felt like my tail stalled! I am not sure and I didn't want to try again. Are you,
guys, sideslipping with the flaps on?
>
> Cheers,
> Michel Verheughe
> Norway
> Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
>
>
>
Hi Michael
I heard before that the Cessna 172 should never be forward slipped with full flap
(40deg) for this very reason. Full flap on the 172 is like opening the barn
doors and the turbulence combined with a slip can mask the tailplane.
However in this case I am do not think that the Junkers type flaps on the Fox will
generate that much turbulence and also the tailplane on the III is not really
an aerofoil section, more of a flat plate really, so should not be effected
as much.
It will be interesting to see if you encounter the same effects when at a high
and safer altitude. My thinking is that the flaps on the Kitfox can also be used
as a trimming device and work as such by changing the forward pitching moment
of the wings with little drag penalty. Full flap will give a larger forward
pitching moment which has to be balanced with greater downward force at the tail,
ie. stick further back. At low and slow flight you would be more prone to
the effects of of these pitch changes due to reduced elevator authority so it
is conceivable that the bump you mentioned and the following downdraft may have
reduced the lift, and pitching moment, of the wing but retained your tailplane
force giving a sudden pitch up. In stable flight conditions the tail is exerting
a downward force and any stalling at the tailplane should lead to nose
down pitching. Let us know how you get on.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186776#186776
Message 4
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| Subject: | ethanol in autogas |
hi all,
with warmer weather my 03 toyota echo consistantly gets 40-41 mpg.
this is as good as it has ever been, even 3 yrs ago when my shell
station was no ethanol. for the past 6 months my shell station has
advertised 10% ethanol in their fuel. my point is this........ i think
ethanol % varies immensely from one transport load to the next. there
is no way i can be getting over 40 mpg on 10% ethanol.
bob noffs
Message 5
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| Subject: | Fw: application of vg |
----- Original Message -----
From: bob noffs
Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 9:14 AM
Subject: application of vg
i have seen vg's put on with a 3m double sided tape and i have seen them
carefully removed weeks later as the mfg. said they could be. if anyone
is interested i could see if i can get the specs on the 3m tape. i have
watched pretty thorough testing on a dakota hawk and vg's were put on
and taken off the cloth wing to test their performance in different
locations.
bob noffs
Message 6
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> From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt@jps.net]
> This part was inserted between my post and my signature, making it
> look, at least on my screen, that I made that statement, which I did
> not. While the thought may be true, I didn't post it.
Don't worry, Lynn, I had sorted out who was writing what. I have to be very careful
with that. You see, I work for the KGB and ... ooops, I shouldn't have written
that! Where is the Erase button?
:-) Michel
Do not archive ... or transmit to the KGB, CIA, Mossad, STASI ... or my wife!
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: application of vg |
icubob(at)newnorth.net wrote:
> ---
There is no message in this post that I can see. This seems to happening fairly frequently. Am I doing something wrong. I view this list on the matronics web site at http://forums.matronics.com/viewforum.php?f=8&sid=ab1531ee468c5f957cadfc1a88256cd1
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186784#186784
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Fly-in at Jackson, Michigan (JXN)...breakfast |
No takers so far on the free breakfasts for Kitfoxer's flying into
JXN, and the kindly gentleman who offered has left Delta airspace. I
left orders that if any 'foxes showed up, they were to eat free, and
I'd pay the Chapter back.
I forgot Deke and Kevin on the initial offer...sorry.
We didn't get too many planes there today....maybe 20, and many were
leaving about 10-10:30, so thinking that they knew something that I
didn't, I followed suit. Most of the poor guys had to taxi the mile
or so down to the end of 24 for departure, but I requested and got,
permission to depart at E and 24, making a short runway, but the wind
was there so I knew it would work and it did.
JXN's METAR was showing winds to become G25 at noon, so I got out
before I had to deal with that....only G20 when I left.
It felt kinda strange flying in there before the tower opened, and
seeing the beacon flashing, but I knew it was VFR, and made all the
right calls, landed, and taxied as if I knew what I was doing, then
saw people moving around in the tower, which got my attention, but no
calls.
Lynn
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200...528 hrs
On Jun 7, 2008, at 4:44 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote:
>
> Jeez, I almost forgot to mention the "all you can eat
> breakfast" ($6.00) fly-in...the 40th annual...at JXN Sunday
> morning. There are always tons of airplanes there, as well as cars,
> hot rods, antiques,street rods trucks, motorcycles, (so the flier
> says), so get it together and come on in. It goes from 7:00am to
> 12:00pm (noon). Put on by our EAA Chapter 304.
>
> If for no other reason see our 4-across, 4-6 deep, pancake grill in
> action...I'm writing this under the influence of 1/2 Budweiser, so
> don't hold me to accuracy. : )
>
> Lynn
> Kitfox pilot (to keep it legal with the mod. guys) : )
>
> p.s. What the hell, I'll buy b'fast for any Kitfox that shows
> up...what say, Malcolm, Marco, Rex, John, Steve, William, Lloyd
> from the U.P., Richard, and anybody else I forgot. If the attending
> 'foxes get too many in number, I'll hit the Chapter up for
> reimbursements, so don't be shy!
>
>
Message 9
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Ve haf vays uf dealing with your kind, Michel....
do not archive
On Jun 8, 2008, at 10:49 AM, Michel Verheughe wrote:
>> From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt@jps.net]
>> This part was inserted between my post and my signature, making it
>> look, at least on my screen, that I made that statement, which I did
>> not. While the thought may be true, I didn't post it.
>
> Don't worry, Lynn, I had sorted out who was writing what. I have to
> be very careful with that. You see, I work for the KGB and ...
> ooops, I shouldn't have written that! Where is the Erase button?
>
> :-) Michel
>
> Do not archive ... or transmit to the KGB, CIA, Mossad, STASI ...
> or my wife!
>
>
> <pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
>
> List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List</a>
> forums.matronics.com</a>
> www.matronics.com/contribution</a>
>
> </b></font></pre>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Slow flying... |
Interesting to hear all the various tales of backwards/reverse
flying, here and in person. Sure opens ones eyes to the various
aspects of putting something up into the elements...thanks folks.
Probably better not to try landing backwards with floats though, eh
Noel. Oh wait a minute, here comes Dave to tell us he's done it! : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster
Jabiru 2200
Status: flying w/528 hrs
On Jun 7, 2008, at 4:54 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
> Lynn:
>
>
> My instructor had me do the flying backwards while training
> (C172N).. We were about 5000 over the field when we pulled the
> airspeed back to bout 60 and sure enough slowly but surely we
> drifted backwards enough that it was easy to see. On regular
> intervals he would have me slow the plane down and hang on the prop
> at full throttle until it stalled.
>
>
> Wind at the ground was close to 30 and I certainly wouldnt have
> been flying solo that day.
>
>
> Noel Loveys
Message 11
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Hi all
I'm a long time "lurker" here.
Unfortunately Something happened Friday to a very close family friend that
is quite along the line of this thread and I just have to share it with you.
http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/story/429625.html
Scott Hutson
Avid Model C
Rans S9
Mooney
Walla Walla Wa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 8:43 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Slow flying...
Interesting to hear all the various tales of backwards/reverse
flying, here and in person. Sure opens ones eyes to the various
aspects of putting something up into the elements...thanks folks.
Probably better not to try landing backwards with floats though, eh
Noel. Oh wait a minute, here comes Dave to tell us he's done it! : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster
Jabiru 2200
Status: flying w/528 hrs
On Jun 7, 2008, at 4:54 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
> Lynn:
>
>
> My instructor had me do the flying backwards while training
> (C172N).. We were about 5000' over the field when we pulled the
> airspeed back to bout 60 and sure enough slowly but surely we
> drifted backwards enough that it was easy to see. On regular
> intervals he would have me slow the plane down and hang on the prop
> at full throttle until it stalled.
>
>
> Wind at the ground was close to 30 and I certainly wouldn't have
> been flying solo that day.
>
>
> Noel Loveys
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Slow flying... |
I just read that in the paper this AM... I just watched the cubdriver749er video
with Shaun flying in it last week... My condolences for the loss of a good
friend.
This brings up flight training. During my initial training "moose hunter" or cross
controlled stalls were HAMMERED into me for hours and hours. My high Alaska
time instructor knew what type of flying I would be doing and we spent alot
of time on bush type flying. The description of the wreck is typical moose
hunter stall. You are looking at something on the ground, and stand on the rudder
to swing around yet you are holding opposite aileron so your wing does not
obscure your view of what ever you are looking for on the ground. Your normal
stall in a cub is pretty straight ahead much like the kit fox or avid, however,
in the cross controlled stall it is an immediate spin. Normally you are
WAY to close to the ground to recover. Keeping that ball centered is key to staying
alive.
An accelerated stall could have done the same thing but knowing how these guys
fly, I am sure he was very slow simply fell into the trap that has claimed so
many lives up here.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
95% complete
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186801#186801
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: redoing panel |
I just wanted to let you know that I have sold the instruments
and to thank those of you who contacted me regarding them.
Frank
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Slow flying... |
http://www.supercub.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=16178
towards the bottom of the page, Shaun's father weighs in. Sobering reading to
say the least.
No one knows for sure, but his dad seems to think that he probably had his camera
in his hand...
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
95% complete
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186806#186806
Message 15
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Tom Beirne wrote:
>
> Michel wrote:
> >
> > Anyway, I was on final with 10 degrees flaps and did a sideslip ... oops, it
felt like my tail stalled! I am not sure and I didn't want to try again. Are
you, guys, sideslipping with the flaps on?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Michel Verheughe
> > Norway
> > Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Hi Michael
>
> I heard before that the Cessna 172 should never be forward slipped with full
flap (40deg) for this very reason. Full flap on the 172 is like opening the barn
doors and the turbulence combined with a slip can mask the tailplane.
>
The reason for not slipping a Cessna with flaps deployed is because the little
control rod that actuates the flaps has been known to bend with the induced loads.
When you go to retract the flaps (like in a go around situation), the flap
with a bent link will not retract all the way inducing a rolling moment. This
has been know to cause a few wrecks. At least this is what my instructor
/ flight school owner / DE told me. I was used to doing full flap slips in a
PA-12 and the first time I tried it with a 152 we were in he about knocked me
out with a quick slap to the head. He then showed me the POH that noted not to
do that.... The same held true with the 172, 180 and 185 POH that he made me
read over and over before he checked me out in them.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
95% complete
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186807#186807
Message 16
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tom jones, i checked and my message to kitfox came thru to me.
bob noffs
Message 17
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Leonard sez:
>The reason for not slipping a Cessna with flaps deployed is because
>the little control rod that actuates the flaps has been known to
>bend with the induced loads.
If anything, it seems like loading on the flaps would decrease as
they are turned sideways to the slipstream. My understanding was
that it had to do with the way the flaps disturbed the airflow over
the tail surfaces in that attitude causing a loss of elevator
effectiveness.
I carried that no-slip-with-flaps-extended thinking with me when I
started flying Piper Cherokees but, of course, Piper does not
prohibit such a maneuver in those airplanes.
Mike G.
N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster
Phoenix, AZ
Message 18
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> The reason for not slipping a Cessna with flaps deployed is because the little
control rod that actuates the flaps has been known to bend with the induced
loads
I did not know that. I always thought it was because the airflow was disturbed
over the tail from the 40 degrees of flap deflection. I have owned several Cessnas
and flown 150,152,172,177,180,182 and 185.
I have just known not to sideslip with full flap deflection.
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186816#186816
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Slow flying... |
> Probably better not to try landing backwards with floats though, eh
> Noel. Oh wait a minute, here comes Dave to tell us he's done it! : )
>
Why would i try to tell you that ? I could fly backwards on floats as on any gear
though with the right winds aloft. This is why i post you guys pictures and
videos. Easy to separate the fact from the fiction that way.
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186817#186817
Message 20
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dave wrote:
>
> > The reason for not slipping a Cessna with flaps deployed is because the little
control rod that actuates the flaps has been known to bend with the induced
loads
>
>
> I did not know that. I always thought it was because the airflow was disturbed
over the tail from the 40 degrees of flap deflection. I have owned several
Cessnas and flown 150,152,172,177,180,182 and 185.
> I have just known not to sideslip with full flap deflection.
That was just what I was told about the asymmetrical flap retraction...Not to say
there are not any other reasons not to do it. I would find it hard to believe
that air disturbances over the tail would only effect a Cessna though. One
would have to think that airflow is airflow and it would effect all aircraft
including dozens of variations of pipers that are side slipped with full flaps
everyday.
As far as 40 deg full flap on a 172, that would depend on the model. The ones
I have flown have varied from 30 max to 40 max, and at 40 it is one hell of an
air-brake!
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
95% complete
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186826#186826
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Slow flying... |
Here's a slightly different variation of slow flying. Many times while flying
down the autobahn in Germany in a Huey doing 90 knots, I've been passed by
BMWs and Mercedes. Do Not Archive Leon Morris/Classic 4 (94)/looking
for a Jab/65%/ Flower Mound,TX
---- Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net> wrote:
>
> Interesting to hear all the various tales of backwards/reverse
> flying, here and in person. Sure opens ones eyes to the various
> aspects of putting something up into the elements...thanks folks.
> Probably better not to try landing backwards with floats though, eh
> Noel. Oh wait a minute, here comes Dave to tell us he's done it! : )
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster
> Jabiru 2200
> Status: flying w/528 hrs
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 7, 2008, at 4:54 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
>
> > Lynn:
> >
> >
> >
> > My instructor had me do the flying backwards while training
> > (C172N).. We were about 5000 over the field when we pulled the
> > airspeed back to bout 60 and sure enough slowly but surely we
> > drifted backwards enough that it was easy to see. On regular
> > intervals he would have me slow the plane down and hang on the prop
> > at full throttle until it stalled.
> >
> >
> >
> > Wind at the ground was close to 30 and I certainly wouldnt have
> > been flying solo that day.
> >
> >
> >
> > Noel Loveys
>
>
>
>
Message 22
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akflyer wrote:
>
> That was just what I was told about the asymmetrical flap retraction...Not to
say there are not any other reasons not to do it. I would find it hard to believe
that air disturbances over the tail would only effect a Cessna though.
One would have to think that airflow is airflow and it would effect all aircraft
including dozens of variations of pipers that are side slipped with full flaps
everyday.
>
I'd say it depends on the induced downwash angle and wake characteristics of the
airflow behind the flaps. As you mentioned, not every 172 has the ability to
put out 40deg flaps and with 30deg or less the effect was less pronounced. The
placing of the wing and geometry of the tail are also factors, some empenage
and/or Vertical fin masking effects in the sideslip may have contributed.
Sorry to Jareds for Hi-jacking your thread, but I think Michel started it :)
I just used the 172 example to illustrate one case where full flaps may effect
handling in a slip. I also mentioned that I don't think that this effect is present
on the Fox. The wake characteristics of the Junkers flaps are much less
pronounced than for Flowler flaps. But I am curious as whether the noted effect
is still present at altitude and if so why?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186837#186837
Message 23
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Leonard sez:
>I would find it hard to believe that air disturbances over the tail
>would only effect a Cessna though.
I don't think Cessna designed their airplanes with actuators that are
too small to do the job. Early models used mechanical flaps with a
"Johnson bar" while newer ones use a completely different electric
drive, yet they both have the slip-with-flaps limitation. Cessna
even reduced the full-flap travel on later models from 40 degrees
down to 30 degrees. If there was a design problem, they've had
plenty of opportunities to fix.
>One would have to think that airflow is airflow and it would effect
>all aircraft including dozens of variations of pipers that are side
>slipped with full flaps everyday.
The geometry of the two designs is quite different so the airflow
will be quite different. Imagine the Cessna in a side slip with
those huge barn door flaps extended. The nose is down a bit and the
airplane is moving sidewise due to the slip. The disturbed airflow
from the flaps is striking the tail dead-on.
In a low-wing Cherokee with much smaller flaps, the disturbed airflow
is passing below the tail surfaces to a greater extent. Remember
also, Cherokees use a stabilator with a much larger surface area than
the Cessna's elevator.
There are plenty of high-wing aircraft, including the Kitfox, in
which flap extension and slips get along just fine, but it all has to
do with the geometry of the airplane.
Mike G.
N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster
Phoenix, AZ
Message 24
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Mike,
Not all Cessnas were restricted from slipping with flaps extended. The
C140, the C170, & 170A had no restrictions in the POH indicating that
slipping with flaps extended was a restricted maneuver. These aircraft had
plain flaps, The 170B had the restriction, as I recall, because of that
model came out with the Fowler flaps as did all the later aircraft. One
that I'm not sure of is the C177, but that thing was squirrely anyway,
especially the early 150 hp versions.
John Hart
KF IV
Wilburton, OK
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Gibbs
Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 2:10 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: STalled
Leonard sez:
>I would find it hard to believe that air disturbances over the tail
>would only effect a Cessna though.
I don't think Cessna designed their airplanes with actuators that are too
small to do the job. Early models used mechanical flaps with a "Johnson
bar" while newer ones use a completely different electric drive, yet they
both have the slip-with-flaps limitation. Cessna even reduced the full-flap
travel on later models from 40 degrees down to 30 degrees. If there was a
design problem, they've had plenty of opportunities to fix.
>One would have to think that airflow is airflow and it would effect all
>aircraft including dozens of variations of pipers that are side slipped
>with full flaps everyday.
The geometry of the two designs is quite different so the airflow will be
quite different. Imagine the Cessna in a side slip with those huge barn
door flaps extended. The nose is down a bit and the airplane is moving
sidewise due to the slip. The disturbed airflow from the flaps is striking
the tail dead-on.
In a low-wing Cherokee with much smaller flaps, the disturbed airflow is
passing below the tail surfaces to a greater extent. Remember also,
Cherokees use a stabilator with a much larger surface area than the Cessna's
elevator.
There are plenty of high-wing aircraft, including the Kitfox, in which flap
extension and slips get along just fine, but it all has to do with the
geometry of the airplane.
Mike G.
N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster
Phoenix, AZ
Message 25
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Reminds me of an OH-13 ferry flight I did from Ft. Rucker to Ft. Wolters in 1966!
Every car westbound on Interstate 20 Was passing us. We were bucking a 40
knot wind at about 1500' AGL. Our ground speed was less than 35 knots.
John Hart
KF IV
Wilburton, OK
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of l.morris@tx.rr.com
Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 2:03 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Slow flying...
Here's a slightly different variation of slow flying. Many times while flying
down the autobahn in Germany in a Huey doing 90 knots, I've been passed by
BMWs and Mercedes. Do Not Archive Leon Morris/Classic 4 (94)/looking
for a Jab/65%/ Flower Mound,TX
---- Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net> wrote:
>
> Interesting to hear all the various tales of backwards/reverse
> flying, here and in person. Sure opens ones eyes to the various
> aspects of putting something up into the elements...thanks folks.
> Probably better not to try landing backwards with floats though, eh
> Noel. Oh wait a minute, here comes Dave to tell us he's done it! : )
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster
> Jabiru 2200
> Status: flying w/528 hrs
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 7, 2008, at 4:54 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
>
> > Lynn:
> >
> >
> >
> > My instructor had me do the flying backwards while training
> > (C172N).. We were about 5000 over the field when we pulled the
> > airspeed back to bout 60 and sure enough slowly but surely we
> > drifted backwards enough that it was easy to see. On regular
> > intervals he would have me slow the plane down and hang on the prop
> > at full throttle until it stalled.
> >
> >
> >
> > Wind at the ground was close to 30 and I certainly wouldnt have
> > been flying solo that day.
> >
> >
> >
> > Noel Loveys
>
>
>
>
Message 26
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> From: Tom Beirne [thomasbeirne@eircom.net]
> Let us know how you get on.
Thanks for that explanation, Tom. It makes sense. Yes, I'll let you all know if
it was only a coincidence or if I can reproduce it.
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
Do not archive
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
Message 27
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John sez:
>Not all Cessnas were restricted from slipping with flaps extended.
I know. That's why I finished with:
>There are plenty of high-wing aircraft, including the Kitfox, in which flap
>extension and slips get along just fine...
Mike G.
N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster
Phoenix, AZ
Message 28
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I have a set of Full Lotus 1650 floats setup for kitfox never used yellow tops
black bottem I need to sell 4000.00 contact me at 253 307 0680 or waterhawg@hotmail.com
ask for Bill
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186866#186866
Message 29
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MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net wrote:
> Leonard sez:
>
>
> > I would find it hard to believe that air disturbances over the tail
> > would only effect a Cessna though.
> >
> >
>
> I don't think Cessna designed their airplanes with actuators that are
> too small to do the job. Early models used mechanical flaps with a
> "Johnson bar" while newer ones use a completely different electric
> drive, yet they both have the slip-with-flaps limitation. Cessna
> even reduced the full-flap travel on later models from 40 degrees
> down to 30 degrees. If there was a design problem, they've had
> plenty of opportunities to fix.
>
>
> > One would have to think that airflow is airflow and it would effect
> > all aircraft including dozens of variations of pipers that are side
> > slipped with full flaps everyday.
> >
> >
>
> The geometry of the two designs is quite different so the airflow
> will be quite different. Imagine the Cessna in a side slip with
> those huge barn door flaps extended. The nose is down a bit and the
> airplane is moving sidewise due to the slip. The disturbed airflow
> from the flaps is striking the tail dead-on.
>
> In a low-wing Cherokee with much smaller flaps, the disturbed airflow
> is passing below the tail surfaces to a greater extent. Remember
> also, Cherokees use a stabilator with a much larger surface area than
> the Cessna's elevator.
> There are plenty of high-wing aircraft, including the Kitfox, in
> which flap extension and slips get along just fine, but it all has to
> do with the geometry of the airplane.
>
> Mike G.
> N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster
> Phoenix, AZ
Mike I was not even thinking of low wing pipers... More of PA12, 14, 16, 18 etc,
that are high wing. I fly them all day long with full flaps and super duper
side slips. Even I am not dumb enough to try and compare a high wing to a low
wing.
That is another reason that you will see a big EDIT in my post... Google came up
with the answer in a quarter nano second.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
95% complete
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186870#186870
Message 30
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The 172 POH talks to inducing flutter when slipping with full flaps.
SteveD
172N
On Jun 8, 2008, at 10:27 AM, dave wrote:
>
>
>> The reason for not slipping a Cessna with flaps deployed is because
>> the little control rod that actuates the flaps has been known to
>> bend with the induced loads
>
>
> I did not know that. I always thought it was because the airflow
> was disturbed over the tail from the 40 degrees of flap deflection.
> I have owned several Cessnas and flown 150,152,172,177,180,182 and
> 185.
> I have just known not to sideslip with full flap deflection.
>
> --------
> Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
> Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
> http://www.cfisher.com/
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=186816#186816
>
>
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Sometimes this forum is a real mystery to me. Often when I look at a thread there
is no message in the first post but other people have replied so I guess they
see something.
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
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| Subject: | Re: application of vg |
I have noticed that also .
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