Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:32 AM - Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (n85ae)
2. 09:09 AM - 912s installation (Chenoweth)
3. 09:57 AM - Re: 912s installation (Lowell Fitt)
4. 10:56 AM - Re: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (Danny)
5. 12:22 PM - Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (Lynn Matteson)
6. 12:27 PM - Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (JetPilot)
7. 01:20 PM - Re: GSC prop pitch angle (Kyle)
8. 01:34 PM - Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (Michel Verheughe)
9. 02:16 PM - Re: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (Danny)
10. 06:54 PM - Re: Performance stats for a Model II (Bob Brennan)
11. 07:11 PM - Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (Herbert R Gottelt)
12. 07:18 PM - Re: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (Michael Gibbs)
13. 08:18 PM - Re: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (Rexinator)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? |
I have a friend who regularly spins his Series 5 (IO-240) he says
it spins fast. I think he reads the list.
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192251#192251
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| Subject: | 912s installation |
I'm going to start the conversion from my blue-head 582 to a 912S (on my
IV-1200) next week and I'm hoping to find someone with some pictures of
the 912S installation in the IV-1200 that I can use as a guide. I have
the Kitfox IV firewall forward manual from John McBean but some pictures
of the installation in general and in particular of the oil cooler and
cabin heater installations would be very helpful.
The motor mount with side-mount brackets and other firewall forward
stuff are available for sale at what I guarantee will be reasonable
prices.
Bill
Albion, Maine
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| Subject: | Re: 912s installation |
Bill,
I will send photos direct as there are a few. Mine was a 912 straight out
of the box, but I did help once with the tail end of a 912 installation
raplacing a 582. Ragarding the cowl. Everything fit, except we had to add
about two inches to the aft of the ring cowl as I recall.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chenoweth" <chenoweth@gwi.net>
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 9:05 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: 912s installation
I'm going to start the conversion from my blue-head 582 to a 912S (on my
IV-1200) next week and I'm hoping to find someone with some pictures of the
912S installation in the IV-1200 that I can use as a guide. I have the
Kitfox IV firewall forward manual from John McBean but some pictures of the
installation in general and in particular of the oil cooler and cabin heater
installations would be very helpful.
The motor mount with side-mount brackets and other firewall forward stuff
are available for sale at what I guarantee will be reasonable prices.
Bill
Albion, Maine
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| Subject: | Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? |
We used to do some acro in N24ZM (IO-240 powered Series 5) Rolls were the most
fun. Loops were good too but you had to watch the speed at the exit (all the way
back on the power). We did some spins early on in it as well. It would really
get going after?2 full turns but would recover within 1 turn using the normal
recovery technique. All this being said, PLEASE, PLEASE do not try and teach
this to yourself and be very careful doing any acro in the Kitfox. It is a great
flying airplane that is capable of some acro but it is NOT an aerobatic airplane.
Airplanes that are intended for acro are much stronger than the Kitfox.
While is is possible to stay well within the Kitfox's limits while doing acro
you can easily exceed them if you botch a maneuver.
Sermon over
Danny Melnik
F1 N14ZM
Rocket Factory
Melbourne, FL
-----Original Message-----
From: n85ae <n85ae@yahoo.com>
Sent: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 9:29 am
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ???
I have a friend who regularly spins his Series 5 (IO-240) he says
it spins fast. I think he reads the list.
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192251#192251
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| Subject: | Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? |
I just started to do some 90 bank, 180 turns in my IV, and that's
enough to get my attention. I don't think I'll try anything more
severe than this without a G-meter....or maybe I should consult my
flight instructor before even thinking about any more of this
behavior. I'd much rather put long hours on long flights than to
"wear out" the plane doing aerobatics.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster
Jabiru 2200
Status: flying w/545 hrs
On Jul 11, 2008, at 1:01 AM, JetPilot wrote:
>
> I am trying to get an idea of the capabilities of the Kitfox, and
> am wondering how this plane does when one pushes the envelope a
> bit. Is the Kitfox docile enough in a spin that anyone does it in
> a regular basis ? I used to spin my Cessna 150 Aerobat all the
> time, and could pretty much exit the spin on whatever heading I
> wanted. Does the Kitfox compare to a Cessna in a Spin ?
>
> I also saw this video on the Kitfox website of a Kitfox doing
> aerobatics. Anyone do loops and rolls on a regular basis ? I am
> not looking to do any crazy, or extreme aerobatics, or even near
> the ground, I'm to chicken for that ! I would like to do the
> occasional Loop and Roll once in a while...
>
> Mike
>
> --------
> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast
> as you could have !!!
>
> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192229#192229
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? |
Don't worry, I am not going to go out and do anything stupid ! I have hundreds
of aerobatics hours in a Cessna Aerobat. Pretty tame as far as aerobatic planes
go, but man it was a lot of fun :)
I can easily keep maneuvers under 3 G positive and -1 negative. I am just wondering
if people were doing this much or not. I know the plane is rated for +4
, but I also wonder how it would stand up to +3 on a repeated basis ?
Spins are a different story, its not the G's that get you, its getting out of the
spin.. The Cessna 150's spin is so docile, and comes out so positively, that
I could come out of the spin on the heading I wanted within 10 degrees. Sounds
like the Kitfox takes a bit more time to get out of the spin. One full
turn to get out would probably scare the carp out of me !!!
I am looking at building the Kitfox 7 Super Sport with Rotax 912-S
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192306#192306
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| Subject: | Re: GSC prop pitch angle |
So back to my original question, does about 13 degrees of pitch sound about right
to be getting 5,000-5,100 RPM static at WOT? Or is my Tach. giving me incorrect
readings.
Thanks,
--------
Kyle Dunn
Eddyville, Kentucky
Kitfox IV 1200 912 Rotax
1978 Cessna 172 N
American Aero Phoenix II w/582 Rotax
Rotorway Exec.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192309#192309
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| Subject: | RE: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? |
> From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt@jps.net]
> I just started to do some 90=B0 bank, 180=B0 turns in my IV
... Holy cow! I feel sick simply by reading your emails, guys!
What I don't understand is that, a few weeks ago a Norwegian Coast Guard tw
in engine plane (Swearingen SA-226T Merlin III) went down in the sea, killi
ng the three people on board. The weather was not good but they were out on
an IFR training.
Now, I hear that the first report based on the analysis of the wreck says:
They went in a stall at about 6,000 ft.
... how can you dive to death doing a stall that hight? A flat spin? I don'
t get it.
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? |
One must remember that each of our aircraft (although built from a similar collection
of parts) is unique unto itself. A 912 powered 7 Super Sport would most
likely spin differently than my old Series 5 with the IO-240. It would have a
lot less weight at the extreme ends of the aircarft and be a lot lighter overal.?
Acro is fun, just be careful.
Danny Melnik
F1 N14ZM
Rocket Factory
Melbourne, FL
-----Original Message-----
From: JetPilot <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
Sent: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 3:25 pm
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ???
Don't worry, I am not going to go out and do anything stupid ! I have hundreds
of aerobatics hours in a Cessna Aerobat. Pretty tame as far as aerobatic planes
go, but man it was a lot of fun :)
I can easily keep maneuvers under 3 G positive and -1 negative. I am just
wondering if people were doing this much or not. I know the plane is rated for
+4 , but I also wonder how it would stand up to +3 on a repeated basis ?
Spins are a different story, its not the G's that get you, its getting out of
the spin.. The Cessna 150's spin is so docile, and comes out so positively,
that I could come out of the spin on the heading I wanted within 10 degrees.
Sounds like the Kitfox takes a bit more time to get out of the spin. One full
turn to get out would probably scare the carp out of me !!!
I am looking at building the Kitfox 7 Super Sport with Rotax 912-S
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192306#192306
============================
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| Subject: | Performance stats for a Model II |
Finally found the serial number in the paperwork - #705. Since Model 2
ranged from #258 to #748 you could cetainly call mine "the last of the 2's".
So I guess I have a model 2.5, or maybe even a 2.9<g>
Bob Brennan
1991 UK Model 2.x Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes
Sent: 02 July 2008 10:37 am
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Performance stats for a Model II
Bob:
I don't know whether the s/n is stamped somewhere on the airframe. Maybe
someone out there knows? I only know mine from the paperwork I got when I
bought the airplane. (S/n 374, delivered in 1989). I've heard here that
there was some "blending" of the models between the last of the 2's and
first of the 3's. Certainly, as non-structural mods were made these were
incorporated into many kits then in-progress.
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1
--- On Wed, 7/2/08, Bob Brennan <matronics@bob.brennan.name> wrote:
From: Bob Brennan <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Performance stats for a Model II
Hi Marco - where do I find the serial number? My plane was finished in 1991
but I believe was worked on for several years, so may be a mixture of II and
III?
I don't think I can do a takeoff in 75ft but less than 250ft would be easy,
as would a slightly more than 100ft roll-out with a little precision and
practice. The previous owner bragged of being able to do a "vertical"
landing given enough headwind, and it's not too difficult to achieve 0mph
groundspeed at altitude with full flaps, nose high, and power.
I also don't think 1600fpm sustained is possible in my Kitfox but 1000 is
typical and I would guess I could push that to 1200 on a good day and no
breakfast.
I thought that Model II to III was a beefing up for more MTOW as Marco said
plus a larger tail assembly to correct the loss of control authority at low
speeds, hardly anything that would increase performance stats as published.
The 2 pages from my "Kitfox Owners Manual Model II" are the same as
<http://cfisher.com/kitfox/kitfox2poh.pdf>
http://cfisher.com/kitfox/kitfox2poh.pdf except that mine say "Model III" at
the top, which is obviously wrong.
Bob Brennan
1991 Model 2(?) Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes
Sent: 01 July 2008 8:23 pm
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Performance stats for a Model II
Can't imagine the mods made to the 3 to increase MTOW to 1050 could possibly
make much difference in the relative performance numbers. As I recall, it
was mostly beefing up of the spar carry-trough tubes. Correct me if I'm
wrong listers.
Clint's numbers are real-world. What's the kit s/n on your 2 Bob?
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1
--- On Tue, 7/1/08, Bob Brennan <matronics@bob.brennan.name> wrote:
From: Bob Brennan <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Performance stats for a Model II
Those numbers certainly sound more realistic Clint. I got the numbers from
the "Kitfox Owners Manual Model II" that came with the logbooks, and I
assume came with the original kit from Denney. However the title on the
Performance page says "Performance KITFOX Model III" and I am reading under
the "Rotax 582LC, solo" column. I always thought the "III" was a typo since
all the other data seems to match, and I have always been led to believe I
have a Model II.
So I guess my question changes to - is 75ft takeoff and 100ft landing and
1600fpm climb out valid for a Model III? Does anyone have access to Model II
performance pages that they can scan for me please? And what are the major
recognisable differences between a Model II and III?
Bob Brennan
1991 Model 2(?!) Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clint Bazzill
Sent: 01 July 2008 3:30 pm
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Performance stats for a Model II
I don't know where you are getting your information. My Kitfox Pilot's
Guide says that a Model II 582 powered aircraft has a take off distance of
250 feet, landing ground roll of 250 feet and climb rate of 900 feet /
minute.
Clint
_____
From: matronics@bob.brennan.name
Subject: Kitfox-List: Performance stats for a Model II
Hi all - I have a general question about the published performance stats for
my Model II, they don't seem to be realistic.
Specifically - the takeoff distance is listed as 75ft, landing roll as
100ft, both "solo". I've done some pretty quick off-the-grounders with a
good headwind and no fuel to speak of, but 75ft?(!) Is this possibly an
interpolated number for the aircraft at "empty" weight with no pilot or
fuel? Obviously performance specs differ for every pilot/plane combination
but I thought specs were for a typical 170(?)lb pilot at 0 MSL on a perfect
day. I'm not that far off 170lb (well, not TOO far that a gallon or 2 of gas
wouldn't make up for...)
Climb-out is listed as 1600fpm. In which parallel universe? I have achieved
900fpm sustained on a good day, alone, light fuel, and having recently
lightened my own load (I call it "dumping ballast").
I have tested Vne, stall speeds in various configurations, best angle and
best rate of climb, etc but not MTOW or max Gs, and have no intention of
doing so, but with takeoff/landing distances and rate-of-climb seemingly so
far off I have to wonder about the other stats.
Yes - the airplane is configured as stated in the performance data column
and the engine only had 80 hours since a complete overhaul so I don't think
age was a factor. The prop is a ground-adjustable type and was tested and
re-set early in flight testing although I don't know if the setting is for
optimal performance, that's the only thing I can think of.
Thanks in advance,
Bob Brennan
1991 Model 2 Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
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| Subject: | Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? |
Mike, during my phase 1 of the 40hr fly-off I did spins and aileron (flaperon)
rolls and logged them in my log book to satisfy the FAA in case I want to do it
on a regular basis after signoff. Both were no problems. Just make sure your
CG is somewhere in the middle. I did read up on how to do them first. I never
did them since thou.
Herb Gottelt, M4-1200, 912UL
JetPilot <orcabonita@hotmail.com> wrote:
I am trying to get an idea of the capabilities of the Kitfox, and am wondering
how this plane does when one pushes the envelope a bit. Is the Kitfox docile enough
in a spin that anyone does it in a regular basis ? I used to spin my Cessna
150 Aerobat all the time, and could pretty much exit the spin on whatever
heading I wanted. Does the Kitfox compare to a Cessna in a Spin ?
I also saw this video on the Kitfox website of a Kitfox doing aerobatics. Anyone
do loops and rolls on a regular basis ? I am not looking to do any crazy, or
extreme aerobatics, or even near the ground, I'm to chicken for that ! I would
like to do the occasional Loop and Roll once in a while...
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192229#192229
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| Subject: | Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? |
JetPilot Mike sez:
>Sounds like the Kitfox takes a bit more time to get out of the spin.
>One full turn to get out would probably scare the carp out of me !!!
Danny is exactly right, every home-built airplane is different. I
spun my Model IV-1200 Speedster many times but it was difficult to
get it to stay IN the spin for more than 3/4 turn or so. I had to
hold full rudder into the spin and the stick all the way back but it
would still just degrade into a spiral dive before a full turn was
reached. I attribute this to insufficient up elevator authority--it
would pick up speed and start flying again. Releasing the rudder
would immediately stop the turn.
My 'fox was flown several times by a professional aerobatic pilot who
ran it through a wide variety of maneuvers that I am not qualified to
perform. He did loops, rolls, Immelmanns, lazy-8s, spins, and others
I can't remember right now (I don't have my logbooks in front of me).
Being an expert at this type of thing, he was able to safely keep the
airplane well within its load limits. My ham-fisted attempts would
have been an entirely different story.
He had nothing but praise for that little machine. :-)
Mike G.
N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster
Phoenix, AZ
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? |
Michel,
Some high performance aircraft with high wing loading may take several
thousands of feet to recover from a spin or high speed dive. I wouldn't
know about that aircraft, but I wouldn't be surprised if 6,000 feet is
not enough in those conditions. Of course if it was a flat spin it may
not have been recoverable at all.
--
Rex Hefferan
SE Colorado / K-II / 582-C / still waiting repairs
Michel Verheughe wrote:
>>From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt@jps.net]
>>I just started to do some 90 bank, 180 turns in my IV
>>
>>
>
>... Holy cow! I feel sick simply by reading your emails, guys!
>What I don't understand is that, a few weeks ago a Norwegian Coast Guard twin
engine plane (Swearingen SA-226T Merlin III) went down in the sea, killing the
three people on board. The weather was not good but they were out on an IFR training.
>Now, I hear that the first report based on the analysis of the wreck says: They
went in a stall at about 6,000 ft.
>... how can you dive to death doing a stall that hight? A flat spin? I don't get
it.
>
>Cheers,
>Michel Verheughe
>Norway
>Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
>
>
>
>
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