---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 07/11/08: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:32 AM - Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (n85ae) 2. 09:09 AM - 912s installation (Chenoweth) 3. 09:57 AM - Re: 912s installation (Lowell Fitt) 4. 10:56 AM - Re: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (Danny) 5. 12:22 PM - Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (Lynn Matteson) 6. 12:27 PM - Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (JetPilot) 7. 01:20 PM - Re: GSC prop pitch angle (Kyle) 8. 01:34 PM - Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (Michel Verheughe) 9. 02:16 PM - Re: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (Danny) 10. 06:54 PM - Re: Performance stats for a Model II (Bob Brennan) 11. 07:11 PM - Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (Herbert R Gottelt) 12. 07:18 PM - Re: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (Michael Gibbs) 13. 08:18 PM - Re: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (Rexinator) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:04 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? From: "n85ae" I have a friend who regularly spins his Series 5 (IO-240) he says it spins fast. I think he reads the list. Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192251#192251 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:09:07 AM PST US From: "Chenoweth" Subject: Kitfox-List: 912s installation I'm going to start the conversion from my blue-head 582 to a 912S (on my IV-1200) next week and I'm hoping to find someone with some pictures of the 912S installation in the IV-1200 that I can use as a guide. I have the Kitfox IV firewall forward manual from John McBean but some pictures of the installation in general and in particular of the oil cooler and cabin heater installations would be very helpful. The motor mount with side-mount brackets and other firewall forward stuff are available for sale at what I guarantee will be reasonable prices. Bill Albion, Maine ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:57:37 AM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 912s installation Bill, I will send photos direct as there are a few. Mine was a 912 straight out of the box, but I did help once with the tail end of a 912 installation raplacing a 582. Ragarding the cowl. Everything fit, except we had to add about two inches to the aft of the ring cowl as I recall. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chenoweth" Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 9:05 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: 912s installation I'm going to start the conversion from my blue-head 582 to a 912S (on my IV-1200) next week and I'm hoping to find someone with some pictures of the 912S installation in the IV-1200 that I can use as a guide. I have the Kitfox IV firewall forward manual from John McBean but some pictures of the installation in general and in particular of the oil cooler and cabin heater installations would be very helpful. The motor mount with side-mount brackets and other firewall forward stuff are available for sale at what I guarantee will be reasonable prices. Bill Albion, Maine ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:56:43 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? From: Danny We used to do some acro in N24ZM (IO-240 powered Series 5) Rolls were the most fun. Loops were good too but you had to watch the speed at the exit (all the way back on the power). We did some spins early on in it as well. It would really get going after?2 full turns but would recover within 1 turn using the normal recovery technique. All this being said, PLEASE, PLEASE do not try and teach this to yourself and be very careful doing any acro in the Kitfox. It is a great flying airplane that is capable of some acro but it is NOT an aerobatic airplane. Airplanes that are intended for acro are much stronger than the Kitfox. While is is possible to stay well within the Kitfox's limits while doing acro you can easily exceed them if you botch a maneuver. Sermon over Danny Melnik F1 N14ZM Rocket Factory Melbourne, FL -----Original Message----- From: n85ae Sent: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 9:29 am Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? I have a friend who regularly spins his Series 5 (IO-240) he says it spins fast. I think he reads the list. Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192251#192251 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:22:23 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? I just started to do some 90 bank, 180 turns in my IV, and that's enough to get my attention. I don't think I'll try anything more severe than this without a G-meter....or maybe I should consult my flight instructor before even thinking about any more of this behavior. I'd much rather put long hours on long flights than to "wear out" the plane doing aerobatics. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster Jabiru 2200 Status: flying w/545 hrs On Jul 11, 2008, at 1:01 AM, JetPilot wrote: > > I am trying to get an idea of the capabilities of the Kitfox, and > am wondering how this plane does when one pushes the envelope a > bit. Is the Kitfox docile enough in a spin that anyone does it in > a regular basis ? I used to spin my Cessna 150 Aerobat all the > time, and could pretty much exit the spin on whatever heading I > wanted. Does the Kitfox compare to a Cessna in a Spin ? > > I also saw this video on the Kitfox website of a Kitfox doing > aerobatics. Anyone do loops and rolls on a regular basis ? I am > not looking to do any crazy, or extreme aerobatics, or even near > the ground, I'm to chicken for that ! I would like to do the > occasional Loop and Roll once in a while... > > Mike > > -------- > "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast > as you could have !!! > > Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192229#192229 > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:27:51 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? From: "JetPilot" Don't worry, I am not going to go out and do anything stupid ! I have hundreds of aerobatics hours in a Cessna Aerobat. Pretty tame as far as aerobatic planes go, but man it was a lot of fun :) I can easily keep maneuvers under 3 G positive and -1 negative. I am just wondering if people were doing this much or not. I know the plane is rated for +4 , but I also wonder how it would stand up to +3 on a repeated basis ? Spins are a different story, its not the G's that get you, its getting out of the spin.. The Cessna 150's spin is so docile, and comes out so positively, that I could come out of the spin on the heading I wanted within 10 degrees. Sounds like the Kitfox takes a bit more time to get out of the spin. One full turn to get out would probably scare the carp out of me !!! I am looking at building the Kitfox 7 Super Sport with Rotax 912-S Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192306#192306 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:20:11 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: GSC prop pitch angle From: "Kyle" So back to my original question, does about 13 degrees of pitch sound about right to be getting 5,000-5,100 RPM static at WOT? Or is my Tach. giving me incorrect readings. Thanks, -------- Kyle Dunn Eddyville, Kentucky Kitfox IV 1200 912 Rotax 1978 Cessna 172 N American Aero Phoenix II w/582 Rotax Rotorway Exec. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192309#192309 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:34:16 PM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Kitfox-List: RE: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? > From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt@jps.net] > I just started to do some 90=B0 bank, 180=B0 turns in my IV ... Holy cow! I feel sick simply by reading your emails, guys! What I don't understand is that, a few weeks ago a Norwegian Coast Guard tw in engine plane (Swearingen SA-226T Merlin III) went down in the sea, killi ng the three people on board. The weather was not good but they were out on an IFR training. Now, I hear that the first report based on the analysis of the wreck says: They went in a stall at about 6,000 ft. ... how can you dive to death doing a stall that hight? A flat spin? I don' t get it. Cheers, Michel Verheughe Norway Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:16:38 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? From: Danny One must remember that each of our aircraft (although built from a similar collection of parts) is unique unto itself. A 912 powered 7 Super Sport would most likely spin differently than my old Series 5 with the IO-240. It would have a lot less weight at the extreme ends of the aircarft and be a lot lighter overal.? Acro is fun, just be careful. Danny Melnik F1 N14ZM Rocket Factory Melbourne, FL -----Original Message----- From: JetPilot Sent: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 3:25 pm Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? Don't worry, I am not going to go out and do anything stupid ! I have hundreds of aerobatics hours in a Cessna Aerobat. Pretty tame as far as aerobatic planes go, but man it was a lot of fun :) I can easily keep maneuvers under 3 G positive and -1 negative. I am just wondering if people were doing this much or not. I know the plane is rated for +4 , but I also wonder how it would stand up to +3 on a repeated basis ? Spins are a different story, its not the G's that get you, its getting out of the spin.. The Cessna 150's spin is so docile, and comes out so positively, that I could come out of the spin on the heading I wanted within 10 degrees. Sounds like the Kitfox takes a bit more time to get out of the spin. One full turn to get out would probably scare the carp out of me !!! I am looking at building the Kitfox 7 Super Sport with Rotax 912-S Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192306#192306 ============================ ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:54:11 PM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Performance stats for a Model II Finally found the serial number in the paperwork - #705. Since Model 2 ranged from #258 to #748 you could cetainly call mine "the last of the 2's". So I guess I have a model 2.5, or maybe even a 2.9 Bob Brennan 1991 UK Model 2.x Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes Sent: 02 July 2008 10:37 am Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Performance stats for a Model II Bob: I don't know whether the s/n is stamped somewhere on the airframe. Maybe someone out there knows? I only know mine from the paperwork I got when I bought the airplane. (S/n 374, delivered in 1989). I've heard here that there was some "blending" of the models between the last of the 2's and first of the 3's. Certainly, as non-structural mods were made these were incorporated into many kits then in-progress. Marco Menezes N99KX Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 --- On Wed, 7/2/08, Bob Brennan wrote: From: Bob Brennan Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Performance stats for a Model II Hi Marco - where do I find the serial number? My plane was finished in 1991 but I believe was worked on for several years, so may be a mixture of II and III? I don't think I can do a takeoff in 75ft but less than 250ft would be easy, as would a slightly more than 100ft roll-out with a little precision and practice. The previous owner bragged of being able to do a "vertical" landing given enough headwind, and it's not too difficult to achieve 0mph groundspeed at altitude with full flaps, nose high, and power. I also don't think 1600fpm sustained is possible in my Kitfox but 1000 is typical and I would guess I could push that to 1200 on a good day and no breakfast. I thought that Model II to III was a beefing up for more MTOW as Marco said plus a larger tail assembly to correct the loss of control authority at low speeds, hardly anything that would increase performance stats as published. The 2 pages from my "Kitfox Owners Manual Model II" are the same as http://cfisher.com/kitfox/kitfox2poh.pdf except that mine say "Model III" at the top, which is obviously wrong. Bob Brennan 1991 Model 2(?) Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes Sent: 01 July 2008 8:23 pm Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Performance stats for a Model II Can't imagine the mods made to the 3 to increase MTOW to 1050 could possibly make much difference in the relative performance numbers. As I recall, it was mostly beefing up of the spar carry-trough tubes. Correct me if I'm wrong listers. Clint's numbers are real-world. What's the kit s/n on your 2 Bob? Marco Menezes N99KX Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 --- On Tue, 7/1/08, Bob Brennan wrote: From: Bob Brennan Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Performance stats for a Model II Those numbers certainly sound more realistic Clint. I got the numbers from the "Kitfox Owners Manual Model II" that came with the logbooks, and I assume came with the original kit from Denney. However the title on the Performance page says "Performance KITFOX Model III" and I am reading under the "Rotax 582LC, solo" column. I always thought the "III" was a typo since all the other data seems to match, and I have always been led to believe I have a Model II. So I guess my question changes to - is 75ft takeoff and 100ft landing and 1600fpm climb out valid for a Model III? Does anyone have access to Model II performance pages that they can scan for me please? And what are the major recognisable differences between a Model II and III? Bob Brennan 1991 Model 2(?!) Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clint Bazzill Sent: 01 July 2008 3:30 pm Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Performance stats for a Model II I don't know where you are getting your information. My Kitfox Pilot's Guide says that a Model II 582 powered aircraft has a take off distance of 250 feet, landing ground roll of 250 feet and climb rate of 900 feet / minute. Clint _____ From: matronics@bob.brennan.name Subject: Kitfox-List: Performance stats for a Model II Hi all - I have a general question about the published performance stats for my Model II, they don't seem to be realistic. Specifically - the takeoff distance is listed as 75ft, landing roll as 100ft, both "solo". I've done some pretty quick off-the-grounders with a good headwind and no fuel to speak of, but 75ft?(!) Is this possibly an interpolated number for the aircraft at "empty" weight with no pilot or fuel? Obviously performance specs differ for every pilot/plane combination but I thought specs were for a typical 170(?)lb pilot at 0 MSL on a perfect day. I'm not that far off 170lb (well, not TOO far that a gallon or 2 of gas wouldn't make up for...) Climb-out is listed as 1600fpm. In which parallel universe? I have achieved 900fpm sustained on a good day, alone, light fuel, and having recently lightened my own load (I call it "dumping ballast"). I have tested Vne, stall speeds in various configurations, best angle and best rate of climb, etc but not MTOW or max Gs, and have no intention of doing so, but with takeoff/landing distances and rate-of-climb seemingly so far off I have to wonder about the other stats. Yes - the airplane is configured as stated in the performance data column and the engine only had 80 hours since a complete overhaul so I don't think age was a factor. The prop is a ground-adjustable type and was tested and re-set early in flight testing although I don't know if the setting is for optimal performance, that's the only thing I can think of. Thanks in advance, Bob Brennan 1991 Model 2 Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List ttp://forums.matronics.com =_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c 3D=========================3 D=================== href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List"'>http://www.matroni cs.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List 3D=========================3 D=================== href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com 3D=========================3 D=================== href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://www.matronics.com/co ntribution 3D=========================3 D=================== D======================== ========= D======================== ========= D======================== ========= D======================== ========= ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:11:10 PM PST US From: Herbert R Gottelt Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? Mike, during my phase 1 of the 40hr fly-off I did spins and aileron (flaperon) rolls and logged them in my log book to satisfy the FAA in case I want to do it on a regular basis after signoff. Both were no problems. Just make sure your CG is somewhere in the middle. I did read up on how to do them first. I never did them since thou. Herb Gottelt, M4-1200, 912UL JetPilot wrote: I am trying to get an idea of the capabilities of the Kitfox, and am wondering how this plane does when one pushes the envelope a bit. Is the Kitfox docile enough in a spin that anyone does it in a regular basis ? I used to spin my Cessna 150 Aerobat all the time, and could pretty much exit the spin on whatever heading I wanted. Does the Kitfox compare to a Cessna in a Spin ? I also saw this video on the Kitfox website of a Kitfox doing aerobatics. Anyone do loops and rolls on a regular basis ? I am not looking to do any crazy, or extreme aerobatics, or even near the ground, I'm to chicken for that ! I would like to do the occasional Loop and Roll once in a while... Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192229#192229 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:18:41 PM PST US From: Michael Gibbs Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? JetPilot Mike sez: >Sounds like the Kitfox takes a bit more time to get out of the spin. >One full turn to get out would probably scare the carp out of me !!! Danny is exactly right, every home-built airplane is different. I spun my Model IV-1200 Speedster many times but it was difficult to get it to stay IN the spin for more than 3/4 turn or so. I had to hold full rudder into the spin and the stick all the way back but it would still just degrade into a spiral dive before a full turn was reached. I attribute this to insufficient up elevator authority--it would pick up speed and start flying again. Releasing the rudder would immediately stop the turn. My 'fox was flown several times by a professional aerobatic pilot who ran it through a wide variety of maneuvers that I am not qualified to perform. He did loops, rolls, Immelmanns, lazy-8s, spins, and others I can't remember right now (I don't have my logbooks in front of me). Being an expert at this type of thing, he was able to safely keep the airplane well within its load limits. My ham-fisted attempts would have been an entirely different story. He had nothing but praise for that little machine. :-) Mike G. N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster Phoenix, AZ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:18:14 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: RE: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? From: Rexinator Michel, Some high performance aircraft with high wing loading may take several thousands of feet to recover from a spin or high speed dive. I wouldn't know about that aircraft, but I wouldn't be surprised if 6,000 feet is not enough in those conditions. Of course if it was a flat spin it may not have been recoverable at all. -- Rex Hefferan SE Colorado / K-II / 582-C / still waiting repairs Michel Verheughe wrote: >>From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt@jps.net] >>I just started to do some 90 bank, 180 turns in my IV >> >> > >... Holy cow! I feel sick simply by reading your emails, guys! >What I don't understand is that, a few weeks ago a Norwegian Coast Guard twin engine plane (Swearingen SA-226T Merlin III) went down in the sea, killing the three people on board. The weather was not good but they were out on an IFR training. >Now, I hear that the first report based on the analysis of the wreck says: They went in a stall at about 6,000 ft. >... how can you dive to death doing a stall that hight? A flat spin? I don't get it. > >Cheers, >Michel Verheughe >Norway >Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.