Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:35 AM - Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (Michel Verheughe)
2. 02:43 AM - Re: 912s installation (Chenoweth)
3. 03:11 AM - Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (JetPilot)
4. 08:46 AM - Re: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (Rexinator)
5. 02:40 PM - GSC prop for sale (eric)
6. 04:33 PM - Re: Re: GSC prop pitch angle (Brian Morissette)
7. 07:18 PM - Re: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (KITFOXZ@aol.com)
8. 10:16 PM - Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (JetPilot)
Message 1
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| Subject: | RE: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? |
> From: Rexinator [hefferans@GMAIL.COM]
> Some high performance aircraft with high wing loading may take several
> thousands of feet to recover from a spin or high speed dive.
Thanks Rex. Meanwhile I read a bit more about the accident on the internet. The
cockpit voice recorder has been recovered and according to that, it looks like
the following happened:
They were on a training mission. It is not exactly the Norwegian Coast Guards but
the ... coastal authorities, you know, those guys who are responsible to put
all the buoys, lighthouses, etc. along the coast. (Kystverk in Norwegian).
They were training stall recovery. They were doing slow turns near stall speed.
Somehow it went wrong and they couldn't recover and went from 6,000 ft to the
sea. The radar lost them at 800 ft AMSL.
Now, I stall my Kitfox, gently, mushing down. I stall also in a slack turn, recovering
with the pedal on the other side from the turn to avoid a spin.
... I just can't figure out why this aircraft didn't manage to recover from what
should be a simple manoeuvre. But if anything, it scares me and I shiver when
I read that some of you guys intend rolls, etc.
In the Kitfox 3 I modelled as accurate as possible in the X-Plane simulator, rolls
are extremely difficult; I can't finish them without a dive. Of course, it
is only a simulator but a good one using the blade theory to model each and every
surface as an airfoil. Tiny changes in the model, like the position of the
CoG shows great difference in the flight characteristics. One thing is for sure;
I would never try a roll in my real-life Kitfox.
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: 912s installation |
Lowell,
Gottem - thanks very much. I like your cowl modification recollection.
Hope I have a similar experience.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 12:51 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 912s installation
>
> Bill,
>
> I will send photos direct as there are a few. Mine was a 912 straight out
> of the box, but I did help once with the tail end of a 912 installation
> raplacing a 582. Ragarding the cowl. Everything fit, except we had to
> add
> about two inches to the aft of the ring cowl as I recall.
>
> Lowell
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chenoweth" <chenoweth@gwi.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 9:05 AM
> Subject: Kitfox-List: 912s installation
>
>
> I'm going to start the conversion from my blue-head 582 to a 912S (on my
> IV-1200) next week and I'm hoping to find someone with some pictures of
> the
> 912S installation in the IV-1200 that I can use as a guide. I have the
> Kitfox IV firewall forward manual from John McBean but some pictures of
> the
> installation in general and in particular of the oil cooler and cabin
> heater
> installations would be very helpful.
> The motor mount with side-mount brackets and other firewall forward stuff
> are available for sale at what I guarantee will be reasonable prices.
> Bill
> Albion, Maine
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Checked by AVG.
6:50 AM
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? |
Michael,
If you are not comfortable doing a roll, then you should most definitely not do
one.... A loop is much easier, there is not as much to mess up. First time
doing a roll you are almost guaranteed to dive out the bottom or do something
wrong if you have no experience in aerobatics. I was teaching a friend rolls
in my Cessna 150 Aerobat and he got nose low while upside down, he changed is
mind and pulled for all he was worth, we ended up going out the bottom at 5
1/2 G's and 170 MPH, I was laughing at him all the way, as it was within the limits
of the plane :) I also ALWAYS wear a parachute when doing aerobatics,
and do them high enough to get out, schit happens !!!
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192365#192365
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? |
Michel, I also learned in a 150 Aerobat and then flew a Citabria many
hours. Both of these airplanes required a dive followed immediately by
something like a 20+ degree climb atitude to start the roll without
excessive down pitch or dive upon recovery. Since these are relatively
slow flying and and slow rolling aircraft the physics require this kind
of entry to complete the roll as nicely as possible. Higher entry speed
= higher roll rate. Still, a single roll resulted in a 10-20 degree down
pitch. You generally never do more than one roll in these airplanes. If
you tried a roll like you see performed by fighters or high performance
aerobatic aircraft from a level atitude I'm confident a Kitfox would
complete the roll in a dive just like the Aerobat or Citabria.
What was your pitch atitude when you began the roll in X-Plane?
I tried to play with rudder while rolling to control longitudinal axis
with yaw input as I was rolling. It seemed to help a little, but it's
tricky to get right.
Disclaimer: I have never flown a Kitfox in aerobactic flight.
--
Rex Hefferan
SE Colorado / K-II / 582-C / still waiting repairs
Message 5
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| Subject: | GSC prop for sale |
there is a 68" GSC prop for sale on eBay right now
Eric
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: GSC prop pitch angle |
Hi
Not sure how much of this thread I've missed but according to the kitfox
manual a 3 blade GSC prop set at 16.5* should yield 5200rpm static.
Brian
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kyle
Sent: July 11, 2008 4:17 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: GSC prop pitch angle
So back to my original question, does about 13 degrees of pitch sound about
right to be getting 5,000-5,100 RPM static at WOT? Or is my Tach. giving me
incorrect readings.
Thanks,
--------
Kyle Dunn
Eddyville, Kentucky
Kitfox IV 1200 912 Rotax
1978 Cessna 172 N
American Aero Phoenix II w/582 Rotax
Rotorway Exec.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192309#192309
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? |
I think all previous posts, warnings and cautions about aerobatics should
definitely apply.
I have done very little aerobatics in a C-150 Aerobat and a little in a
Decathelon. But, I have done hundreds of hours of aerobatics with many,
different types and sizes of model R/C aircraft. I think model flying can be
one of
the best instructional formats to teach understanding of the aerodynamics of
aerobatics. I think even more so than flying a simulator. Seeing and
feeling (to a great degree) aerobatic maneuvers from the ground can be very
informative and without the disorientation that often confuses a new on board
aerobatic experience.
You can usually find an R/C model club with members who have training models
that are good aerobatic trainers. A "dual" training flight can be done with
the use of two R/C transmitters linked together with the instructing pilot
able to take over at any instant. There is little to no risk of crashing the
owner's model.
There is a great deal that can be learned about the performance of different
airfoils with different wing loadings, CG's and power to weight ratios. I
strongly feel that mastering model aerobatics can be an invaluable experience.
It is usually very safe too, as long as you don't fly the little 10-20
pound beast into your own chest!
John P. Marzluf (John Z.)
Columbus, Ohio
Series V Outback (Out Back In The Garage)
20% Complete, Not Currently Building
Do Not Archive
**************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music
scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? |
Rex,
I usually started the rolls as you described, dive to get a bunch of speed, then
pull up to about 20 degree climb, start roll... Top rudder at the 90 degree
and 270 degree part of the roll played a major part in keeping the nose from
going down to much an getting into a dive, not rudder with ailerons, but rudder
to keep the nose up, which in a right hand roll was first left rudder coming
up and passing through 90 degrees and then right rudder approaching and passing
270 degrees. I was able to do an infinite number of rolls by going very high
in the 150 aerobat, and just accepting a rolling descent using this technique.
I also fly RC, but I don think it helps much to teach aerobatics, as the RC planes
can pull an incredible amount of G's, and take more abuse than a real plane
ever could and you would never even feel it. So you could be making mistakes
in an RC plane that would rip a full scale airplane apart and not even realize
it.
I hear the Kitfox rolls at a really fast rate, which makes rolls easier, but its
what you don't know that will bite you, which is why I would want to know what
to expect from guys that have done it before I would try something like that.
Some may think I sound crazy for asking this, but the crazy thing would be
to try something like this without talking to and learning from those that have
been doing this.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192429#192429
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