Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:32 AM - Re: Re: GSC prop pitch angle (JC Propeller Design)
2. 01:34 AM - Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (Michel Verheughe)
3. 04:47 AM - Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (LarryM)
4. 05:02 AM - Urethane hose warning (LarryM)
5. 05:49 AM - Re: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (Dan Billingsley)
6. 06:09 AM - Re: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (Rexinator)
7. 06:19 AM - Re: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (fox5flyer)
8. 06:20 AM - Re: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (mdkitfox@aol.com)
9. 06:25 AM - Re: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (mdkitfox@aol.com)
10. 06:27 AM - Re: Re: Temporary strut fairing (mscotter@comcast.net)
11. 07:48 AM - Re: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (floran higgins)
12. 09:48 AM - Re: Temporary strut fairing (Mnflyer)
13. 11:35 AM - Re: Temporary strut fairing (dave)
14. 12:40 PM - Re: Temporary strut fairing (Tom Jones)
15. 12:40 PM - Re: 912s installation (Noel Loveys)
16. 01:55 PM - Re: Temporary strut fairing (Mnflyer)
17. 03:48 PM - Re: 912s installation (Chenoweth)
18. 04:19 PM - Proper prop (John Ross)
19. 04:21 PM - Re: Re: GSC prop pitch angle (Noel Loveys)
20. 04:27 PM - Re: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (Noel Loveys)
21. 04:36 PM - Re: Performance stats for a Model II (Noel Loveys)
22. 04:44 PM - Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (dave)
23. 04:48 PM - Re: Hydraulic Lock (Pete Christensen)
24. 05:24 PM - Re: Re: Hydraulic Lock (paul wilson)
25. 06:30 PM - Re: 912s installation (Noel Loveys)
26. 07:29 PM - Re: Re: Hydraulic Lock (Lowell Fitt)
27. 08:51 PM - Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (Don G)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: GSC prop pitch angle |
That's with a calibrated RPM meter.
Jan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Morissette" <brianm@snolab.ca>
Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 1:26 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: GSC prop pitch angle
>
> Hi
>
> Not sure how much of this thread I've missed but according to the kitfox
> manual a 3 blade GSC prop set at 16.5* should yield 5200rpm static.
>
> Brian
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kyle
> Sent: July 11, 2008 4:17 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: GSC prop pitch angle
>
>
> So back to my original question, does about 13 degrees of pitch sound
> about
> right to be getting 5,000-5,100 RPM static at WOT? Or is my Tach. giving
> me
> incorrect readings.
> Thanks,
>
> --------
> Kyle Dunn
> Eddyville, Kentucky
> Kitfox IV 1200 912 Rotax
> 1978 Cessna 172 N
> American Aero Phoenix II w/582 Rotax
> Rotorway Exec.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192309#192309
>
>
> __________ NOD32 2838 (20080131) Information __________
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | RE: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? |
Fear not, I will never do anything more than ... errr, a 60 degrees bank, Mike!
> From: Rexinator [hefferans@gmail.com]
> What was your pitch atitude when you began the roll in X-Plane?
A slight dive, Rex, to make sure I have enough speed.
> I tried to play with rudder while rolling to control longitudinal axis
> with yaw input as I was rolling. It seemed to help a little, but it's
> tricky to get right.
Exactly, I am sure that it is my lousy rudder control that is the reason of the
bad roll. But ... a roll is much easier in other aircraft, especially if they
have a strong engine, low wings that are really at the CoG of the aircraft in
the three dimensions.
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
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| Subject: | Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? |
I have found that the STOL wing Avid (uncambered) can not remain in a spin because
the wing will not stayed stalled and the spin quickly (less than 1/4 turn)
will develop into a high speed spiral. I have tried it at all cg locations and
found it to be the same. In fact, I could not stall the wing in a cross controlled
configuration. The plane will sink, as its not developing enough lift,
but not stall. When changing from the cross- control to co-ordinated, it will
"Avid stall", which is along the lines of a typical stall, but the recovers
itself. I found that this wing/airplane if held still full back will simple
lob the nose up, somewhat stall, nose will then somewhat drop and regain speed
to repeat the cycle as long as you want to keep the stick full aft. You will
loose altitude with each cycle.
For the reason of the rapid speed build up, I choose not to spin the stol wing
and recommend the same to others. I'd also like to restate that this was in
the stol Avid, not KF, but I think that the early models were very similar.
Mentioned only for the perspective of experience, I have 1,000 of aerobatic hrs.
Have fun & be careful,
larry
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192439#192439
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| Subject: | Urethane hose warning |
I found that Urethane hose is NOT suitable with anti- freeze and suffer a ruptured
vent line due to the hose internal deterioration in a very short period of
time. My experience forces me to proclaim it all all - DONT USE IT for anti-freeze
situations!
larry
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192441#192441
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| Subject: | Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? |
It is my understanding that the Kitfox is designed sound enough to perform light
aerobatics. Does anyone know if the KF that Jimmy Franklin flew had any structural
enhancements made to it? I was once told it was just a stock plane with
a Rotax 912 (80 HP). I know many of you are familiar with the video on youtube,
but for those who are new...do a search for Jimmy Franklin, Kitfox. Remember,
he was a professional and like many others have advised...don't try this at
home without instructor training.
Dan B, Mesa, AZ
KF-IV, 912s (painting)
LarryM <CrownLJ@verizon.net> wrote:
I have found that the STOL wing Avid (uncambered) can not remain in a spin because
the wing will not stayed stalled and the spin quickly (less than 1/4 turn)
will develop into a high speed spiral. I have tried it at all cg locations and
found it to be the same. In fact, I could not stall the wing in a cross controlled
configuration. The plane will sink, as its not developing enough lift,
but not stall. When changing from the cross- control to co-ordinated, it will
"Avid stall", which is along the lines of a typical stall, but the recovers itself.
I found that this wing/airplane if held still full back will simple lob
the nose up, somewhat stall, nose will then somewhat drop and regain speed to
repeat the cycle as long as you want to keep the stick full aft. You will loose
altitude with each cycle.
For the reason of the rapid speed build up, I choose not to spin the stol wing
and recommend the same to others. I'd also like to restate that this was in the
stol Avid, not KF, but I think that the early models were very similar. Mentioned
only for the perspective of experience, I have 1,000 of aerobatic hrs.
Have fun & be careful,
larry
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192439#192439
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? |
Yes this discussion is at least "for educational purposes". :-)
As Larry points out about the STOL wing characterisics in a spin, those
characteristics may have a undesirable effect on rolls. For M1-M3 STOL
wing versions plus the slow Vne would require a much slower roll entry
speed than is typical for an Aerobat (or Citabria) which were considered
only an adequate aerobatic platform. I would expect even more loss of
altitude with each roll. So with my limited aerobatic experience while I
might consider attempting some aerobatics in my M2 I also possibly would
find them less satisfying. It would still be fun for a while at least.
--
Rex Hefferan
SE Colorado / K-II / 582-C / still waiting repairs
JetPilot wrote:
>
>Rex,
>
>I usually started the rolls as you described, dive to get a bunch of speed, then
pull up to about 20 degree climb, start roll... Top rudder at the 90 degree
and 270 degree part of the roll played a major part in keeping the nose from
going down to much an getting into a dive, not rudder with ailerons, but rudder
to keep the nose up, which in a right hand roll was first left rudder coming
up and passing through 90 degrees and then right rudder approaching and passing
270 degrees. I was able to do an infinite number of rolls by going very
high in the 150 aerobat, and just accepting a rolling descent using this technique.
>
>I also fly RC, but I don think it helps much to teach aerobatics, as the RC planes
can pull an incredible amount of G's, and take more abuse than a real plane
ever could and you would never even feel it. So you could be making mistakes
in an RC plane that would rip a full scale airplane apart and not even realize
it.
>
>I hear the Kitfox rolls at a really fast rate, which makes rolls easier, but its
what you don't know that will bite you, which is why I would want to know what
to expect from guys that have done it before I would try something like that.
Some may think I sound crazy for asking this, but the crazy thing would be
to try something like this without talking to and learning from those that have
been doing this.
>
>Mike
>
>--------
>"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
>
>Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
>
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? |
I'm pretty sure it was a stock Speedster with 912. Jimmy Franklin was
about as good as they get and could probably have done aerobatics in an
ultra light without over stressing it.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 380+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but
progress."
- Joseph Joubert
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Billingsley
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 8:45 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a
Kitfox ???
It is my understanding that the Kitfox is designed sound enough to
perform light aerobatics. Does anyone know if the KF that Jimmy Franklin
flew had any structural enhancements made to it? I was once told it was
just a stock plane with a Rotax 912 (80 HP). I know many of you are
familiar with the video on youtube, but for those who are new...do a
search for Jimmy Franklin, Kitfox. Remember, he was a professional and
like many others have advised...don't try this at home without
instructor training.
Dan B, Mesa, AZ
KF-IV, 912s (painting)
LarryM <CrownLJ@verizon.net> wrote:
I have found that the STOL wing Avid (uncambered) can not remain in
a spin because the wing will not stayed stalled and the spin quickly
(less than 1/4 turn) will develop into a high speed spiral. I have tried
it at all cg locations and found it to be the same. In fact, I could not
stall the wing in a cross controlled configuration. The plane will sink,
as its not developing enough lift, but not stall. When changing from the
cross- control to co-ordinated, it will "Avid stall", which is along the
lines of a typical stall, but the recovers itself. I found that this
wing/airplane if held still full back will simple lob the nose up,
somewhat stall, nose will then somewhat drop and regain speed to repeat
the cycle as long as you want to keep the stick full aft. You will loose
altitude with each cycle.
For the reason of the rapid speed build up, I choose not to spin the
stol wing and recommend the same to others. I'd also like to restate
that this was in the stol Avid, not KF, but I think that the early
models were very similar. Mentioned only for the perspective of
experience, I have 1,000 of aerobatic hrs.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? |
Michel,
Multi engine airplanes are different animals than singles. =C2-In fact som
e multi's cannot recover from a deep, high speed, or full stall without goin
g into a spin and eating up a lot of altitude before and IF it can ever be r
ecovered. =C2-Sometimes, if the spin can be stopped, a steep spiral is ent
ered and the speed builds up quickly, well beyond Vne, and the aircraft come
s apart. =C2-There are some multi's, jets for instance, that you should ne
ver stall because they are=C2-simply=C2-not recoverable. =C2-That's wh
y stick shakers are usually on board. =C2-These devices vibrate the stick
to alert the pilot a stall is being approached. =C2-If the pilot refuses t
o correct the condition, the stick will automatically push forward to avoid
the stall. =C2-What this means is the designers know if the aircraft stall
s, the airplane will never recover, regardless of the altitude, so the nose
is pushed down in a last ditch attempt for the aircraft to save itself. =C2
-Thus, most multi instruction includes a lot of stall recognition work and
the full stall is avoided.=C2-
I would guess the Swearingen should not be stalled, but recovered before it
fully develops. =C2-I would also surmise it is unrecoverable, and it is ce
rtified such that spins, (and stalls) are not permitted. =C2-Low altitude
steep turns can quickly get out of hand in such a clean airplane. =C2-A sp
iral or high speed stall can be encountered, and that's pretty much the end
of the story. =C2-None of this true in20our airplanes as they can be recov
ered without much problem, as long as the aircraft is within CG limits.
Rick Weiss
Series V Speedster
-----Original Message-----
From: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
Sent: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 4:26 pm
Subject: Kitfox-List: RE: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ???
> From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt@jps.net]
> I just started to do some 90=C2=B0 bank, 180=C2=B0 turns in my IV
... Holy cow! I feel sick simply by reading your emails, guys!
What I don't understand is that, a few weeks ago a Norwegian Coast Guard twi
n
engine plane (Swearingen SA-226T Merlin III) went down in the sea, killing t
he
three people on board. The weather was not good but they were out on an IFR
training.
Now, I hear that the first report based on the analysis of the wreck says: T
hey
went in a stall at about 6,000 ft.
... how can you dive to death doing a stall that hight? A flat spin? I don't
get
it.
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
nd much much more:
//www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List</a>
com</a>
ronics.com/contribution</a>
</b></font></pre>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? |
Jimmy Franklin flew the stock Model IV Speedster that SkyStar used as a demo
nstrator. =C2-No mods or enhancements. =C2-It was a 912, 80HP. =C2-I r
emember watching the demo at Oshkosh with Phil Reed who owned the Company at
the time. =C2-He couldn't watch the show. =C2-It made him too nervous.
=C2-He said the Company's future was on the line if the show ended 'poorly
'.
Rick Weiss
Series V Speedster
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Billingsley <dan@azshowersolutions.com>
Sent: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 8:45 am
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ???
It is my understanding that the Kitfox is designed sound enough to perform l
ight aerobatics. Does anyone know if the KF that Jimmy Franklin flew had any
structural enhancements made to it? I was once told it was just a stock pla
ne with a Rotax 912 (80 HP).=C2-I know many of you are familiar with the v
ideo on youtube, but for those who are new...do a search for Jimmy Franklin,
Kitfox. Remember, he was a professional and like many others have advised..
.don't try this at home without instructor training.
=C2-
Dan B, Mesa, AZ
KF-IV, 912s (painting)
LarryM <CrownLJ@verizon.net> wrote:
I have found that the STOL wing Avid (uncambered) can not remain in a spin b
ecause the wing will not stayed stalled and the spin quickly (less
than 1/4 turn) will develop into a high speed spiral. I have tried=2
0it at all cg locations and found it to be the same. In fact, I could not st
all the wing in a cross controlled configuration. The plane will sink, as it
s not developing enough lift, but not stall. When changing from the cross- c
ontrol to co-ordinated, it will "Avid stall", which is along the lines of a
typical stall, but the recovers itself. I found that this wing/airplane if h
eld still full back will simple lob the nose up, somewhat stall, nose will t
hen somewhat drop and regain speed to repeat the cycle as long as you want t
o keep the stick full aft. You will loose altitude with each cycle.
For the reason of the rapid speed build up, I choose not to spin the stol wi
ng and recommend the same to others. I'd also like to restate that this was
in the stol Avid, not KF, but I think that the early models were very simila
r. Mentioned only for the perspective of experience, I have 1,000 of aerobat
ic hrs.
========3D=
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Temporary strut fairing |
Seems pretty simple to me. Less drag = less sink.
------Original Message------
From: Tom Jones
Sender: Kitfox list
ReplyTo: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Jul 8, 2008 6:03 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Temporary strut fairing
Well the wind finally quit blowing in windy Ellensburg this morning so I was able
to test the wood strut fairing attached with duct tape.
Near as I can tell true air speed at 4000 feet DA and 5800 RPM increased from 78
mph to 82 mph. Climb rate did not change.
The biggest supprise to me was the sink rate at a 50 to 55 mph approach speed decreased
a lot. I made my normal close in base to final and over shot the first
two runway exits. I tried a second landing and was way high over the threshold
again. Is there a logical reason for this or do I just need to learn to
fly again?
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=191833#191833
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? |
Many years ago, when I was in the Air Force we were told not to spin the
F-89 as it would lose 20,000 ft per turn.
Floran Higgins
Helena Mt.
Speedster
912ULS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michel Verheughe" <michel@online.no>
Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 2:26 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: RE: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ???
> Fear not, I will never do anything more than ... errr, a 60 degrees bank,
> Mike!
>
>> From: Rexinator [hefferans@gmail.com]
>> What was your pitch atitude when you began the roll in X-Plane?
>
> A slight dive, Rex, to make sure I have enough speed.
>
>> I tried to play with rudder while rolling to control longitudinal axis
>> with yaw input as I was rolling. It seemed to help a little, but it's
>> tricky to get right.
>
> Exactly, I am sure that it is my lousy rudder control that is the reason
> of the bad roll. But ... a roll is much easier in other aircraft,
> especially if they have a strong engine, low wings that are really at the
> CoG of the aircraft in the three dimensions.
>
> Cheers,
> Michel Verheughe
> Norway
> Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
>
>
> <pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List</a>
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com</a>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution</a>
>
> </b></font></pre>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Temporary strut fairing |
Hi thats what I found with my plane when I installed the stearmline fairings,
the plane just didn't slow down like before less drag one has to make a little
longer approach, once you get use to it its just like before. Another thing I
found with mine is its stabler at cruise and I like the looks.
--------
GB
MNFlyer
Flying a HKS Kitfox III
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192473#192473
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Temporary strut fairing |
> dave
>
> Joined: 22 Sep 2006
> Posts: 869
>
> Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 8:13 pm Post subject: Re: Temporary strut fairing
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Tom, I will guess you will see 5 mph gain.
>
>
Near as I can tell true air speed at 4000 feet DA and 5800 RPM increased from 78
mph to 82 mph. Climb rate did not change
Looks Like I was close there in my 5 mph guessimate. :-)
Hopefully a little more tweaking and you will see a few more MPH .
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192496#192496
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| Subject: | Re: Temporary strut fairing |
I was over at the Arlington WA fly in on Friday and talked to Debora at the Kitfox
LLC booth about their PVC fairing. I liked the looks of how they have it
installed on their demonstrators. I will probably order some. She said on their
Series 7 they got a 15 mph increase in speed.
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192500#192500
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| Subject: | 912s installation |
I'm in the throwes of doing just that to my model III-A which I expect is
actually closer to a model II. I'm using the model IV Dynafocal mount and
the first thing I've found is attaching the engione to the mount is probably
easier to do before installing in the plane. One other item is the cooling
hoses from the water pump to the cylinder heads will require having the
studs (45 deg) will need to be turned a bit to get a decent access to
putting the hoses on the pump. You may also need to turn the 45 deg studs
on the aft cylinders to get a decent clearance on the aft hoses. These
studs are held in place with green locktite ( penetrating) and will need to
be very carefully heated to remove, clean and reinstall in the correct
direction. It was advised to me that Llight Engine Rep[airs uses a rod
turned down on a lathe to insert into the studs for removal. I don't happen
to have a lathe or any 1" aluminium stock so I had to substitute brass and a
file. If you want to try this remember the old rule don't grind anything
that doesn't spark so use a file. It may take a lot longer but it will be
worth it.
Also be careful removing the top of the pump.. you may want to do that to
get a better grasp on the part and to remove the O-ring that is inside the
pump inlet.
Pictures following:
Lord mounts and wiring harness will be hard to position on the airplane. I
recommend getting the engine fully read then install the engine and mount in
one piece. Be careful to make sure the mount fits perfectly before starting
working on the engine. This engine has the older style ignition and care
must be taken with it.
P7130021.JPG
I removed the pump back plate to remove the hose nipples so they can be
reinstalled in the right directions.
Looks like I may have to do the same thing with the nipples in the rear
cylinders.
P7130022.JPG
Hose nipples may direct the hoses to rub on the motor mount. I expect to
have to use longer hoses.
P7130024.JPG
I made a tool out of a piece of brass round stock to assist removing the
nipples from the pump top plate. A careful amount of heat was applied to
the nipple only to break the Locktite. Slow and easy using minimum heat to
avoid cracking or pinching the nipples. Green, penetrating Locktite will be
used to reinstall the nipples in a direction that won't interfere with the
mount.
P7130027.JPG
Sigtaturea
Noel Loveys
Campbellton, NL, Canada
CDN AME intern, PP-Rec
C-FINB, Kitfox III-A
Soon 912 W/ Warp, Aerocet 1100 floats
noelloveys@yahoo.ca
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chenoweth
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 1:35 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: 912s installation
I'm going to start the conversion from my blue-head 582 to a 912S (on my
IV-1200) next week and I'm hoping to find someone with some pictures of the
912S installation in the IV-1200 that I can use as a guide. I have the
Kitfox IV firewall forward manual from John McBean but some pictures of the
installation in general and in particular of the oil cooler and cabin heater
installations would be very helpful.
The motor mount with side-mount brackets and other firewall forward stuff
are available for sale at what I guarantee will be reasonable prices.
Bill
Albion, Maine
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Temporary strut fairing |
Hi Tom, I installed the PVC type fairings in May of this year and got about 6 to
8 mph increase in cruise. I had all the balsa cut and spade when these came
up for sale, and the installation is a lot simpler.
--------
GB
MNFlyer
Flying a HKS Kitfox III
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192510#192510
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: 912s installation |
Noel,
Thanks very much. After reading your comments I'm hoping the fact that
I'm doing this with a IV-1200 will mean less complexity. Your thoughts
on the mounting procedure sound about right from what I've recently
learned and that is my plan. You're going to a 912 not a 912S, right?
Regards,
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: Noel Loveys
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 3:37 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 912s installation
I'm in the throwes of doing just that to my model III-A which I expect
is actually closer to a model II. I'm using the model IV Dynafocal
mount and the first thing I've found is attaching the engione to the
mount is probably easier to do before installing in the plane. One
other item is the cooling hoses from the water pump to the cylinder
heads will require having the studs (45 deg) will need to be turned a
bit to get a decent access to putting the hoses on the pump. You may
also need to turn the 45 deg studs on the aft cylinders to get a decent
clearance on the aft hoses. These studs are held in place with green
locktite ( penetrating) and will need to be very carefully heated to
remove, clean and reinstall in the correct direction. It was advised to
me that Llight Engine Rep[airs uses a rod turned down on a lathe to
insert into the studs for removal. I don't happen to have a lathe or
any 1" aluminium stock so I had to substitute brass and a file. If you
want to try this remember the old rule don't grind anything that doesn't
spark so use a file. It may take a lot longer but it will be worth it.
Also be careful removing the top of the pump.. you may want to do that
to get a better grasp on the part and to remove the O-ring that is
inside the pump inlet.
Pictures following:
Lord mounts and wiring harness will be hard to position on the
airplane. I recommend getting the engine fully read then install the
engine and mount in one piece. Be careful to make sure the mount fits
perfectly before starting working on the engine. This engine has the
older style ignition and care must be taken with it.
I removed the pump back plate to remove the hose nipples so they can
be reinstalled in the right directions.
Looks like I may have to do the same thing with the nipples in the
rear cylinders.
Hose nipples may direct the hoses to rub on the motor mount. I expect
to have to use longer hoses.
I made a tool out of a piece of brass round stock to assist removing
the nipples from the pump top plate. A careful amount of heat was
applied to the nipple only to break the Locktite. Slow and easy using
minimum heat to avoid cracking or pinching the nipples. Green,
penetrating Locktite will be used to reinstall the nipples in a
direction that won't interfere with the mount.
Noel Loveys
Campbellton, NL, Canada
CDN AME intern, PP-Rec
C-FINB, Kitfox III-A
Soon 912 W/ Warp, Aerocet 1100 floats
noelloveys@yahoo.ca
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chenoweth
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 1:35 PM
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: Kitfox-List: 912s installation
I'm going to start the conversion from my blue-head 582 to a 912S (on
my IV-1200) next week and I'm hoping to find someone with some pictures
of the 912S installation in the IV-1200 that I can use as a guide. I
have the Kitfox IV firewall forward manual from John McBean but some
pictures of the installation in general and in particular of the oil
cooler and cabin heater installations would be very helpful.
The motor mount with side-mount brackets and other firewall forward
stuff are available for sale at what I guarantee will be reasonable
prices.
Bill
Albion, Maine
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Checked by AVG.
7/9/2008 6:50 AM
Message 18
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Can anyone give me any insight into the proper propeller selection for an O
-200? I would like any input on not-only a stock aluminum, but ground adj
ustable and in flight adjustable units. -Thanks.=0AJohn Ross =0AGreen Bay
, WI=0A=0A=0A
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: GSC prop pitch angle |
There are some variables in there like the reduction of your PSRU. My best
advice would be to get a TinyTach and test it.
Noel Loveys
AME Intern, RPP
Kitfox III-A, 912 on the way
Ivo IFA, Aerocet 1100 floats
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kyle
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 5:47 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: GSC prop pitch angle
So back to my original question, does about 13 degrees of pitch sound about
right to be getting 5,000-5,100 RPM static at WOT? Or is my Tach. giving me
incorrect readings.
Thanks,
--------
Kyle Dunn
Eddyville, Kentucky
Kitfox IV 1200 912 Rotax
1978 Cessna 172 N
American Aero Phoenix II w/582 Rotax
Rotorway Exec.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192309#192309
Message 20
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| Subject: | RE: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? |
Michel:
My best guess, and that's all it is, would be icing. Everything seems to
fit for that. A large body of salt water, twin engine with lots of power
and IFR. I lost a friend many years ago for what we guess was the same
reason. He was flying a Grumman Widgeon... They eventually found his
leather flight jacket... inside out.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michel
Verheughe
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 5:57 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: RE: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ???
> From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt@jps.net]
> I just started to do some 90 bank, 180 turns in my IV
... Holy cow! I feel sick simply by reading your emails, guys!
What I don't understand is that, a few weeks ago a Norwegian Coast Guard
twin engine plane (Swearingen SA-226T Merlin III) went down in the sea,
killing the three people on board. The weather was not good but they were
out on an IFR training.
Now, I hear that the first report based on the analysis of the wreck says:
They went in a stall at about 6,000 ft.
... how can you dive to death doing a stall that hight? A flat spin? I don't
get it.
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
<pre><b><font size=2 color=000000" face="courier new,courier">
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronics.c
om/Navigator?Kitfox-List</a>
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com</a>
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contri
bution</a>
</b></font></pre>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Performance stats for a Model II |
My baby, The Beothuck Explorer, is #736 and was supposed to be upgraded to
model III. Personally I don't see where any upgrades were done but for the
record it was registered as a Kitfox Model III-A
Sigtaturea
Noel Loveys
Campbellton, NL, Canada
CDN AME intern, PP-Rec
C-FINB, Kitfox III-A
912 almost ready to hang, Aerocet 1100 floats
noelloveys@yahoo.ca
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 11:14 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Performance stats for a Model II
Finally found the serial number in the paperwork - #705. Since Model 2
ranged from #258 to #748 you could cetainly call mine "the last of the 2's".
So I guess I have a model 2.5, or maybe even a 2.9<g>
Bob Brennan
1991 UK Model 2.x Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes
Sent: 02 July 2008 10:37 am
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Performance stats for a Model II
Bob:
I don't know whether the s/n is stamped somewhere on the airframe. Maybe
someone out there knows? I only know mine from the paperwork I got when I
bought the airplane. (S/n 374, delivered in 1989). I've heard here that
there was some "blending" of the models between the last of the 2's and
first of the 3's. Certainly, as non-structural mods were made these were
incorporated into many kits then in-progress.
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1
--- On Wed, 7/2/08, Bob Brennan <matronics@bob.brennan.name> wrote:
From: Bob Brennan <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Performance stats for a Model II
Hi Marco - where do I find the serial number? My plane was finished in 1991
but I believe was worked on for several years, so may be a mixture of II and
III?
I don't think I can do a takeoff in 75ft but less than 250ft would be easy,
as would a slightly more than 100ft roll-out with a little precision and
practice. The previous owner bragged of being able to do a "vertical"
landing given enough headwind, and it's not too difficult to achieve 0mph
groundspeed at altitude with full flaps, nose high, and power.
I also don't think 1600fpm sustained is possible in my Kitfox but 1000 is
typical and I would guess I could push that to 1200 on a good day and no
breakfast.
I thought that Model II to III was a beefing up for more MTOW as Marco said
plus a larger tail assembly to correct the loss of control authority at low
speeds, hardly anything that would increase performance stats as published.
The 2 pages from my "Kitfox Owners Manual Model II" are the same as
http://cfisher.com/kitfox/kitfox2poh.pdf except that mine say "Model III" at
the top, which is obviously wrong.
Bob Brennan
1991 Model 2(?) Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes
Sent: 01 July 2008 8:23 pm
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Performance stats for a Model II
Can't imagine the mods made to the 3 to increase MTOW to 1050 could possibly
make much difference in the relative performance numbers. As I recall, it
was mostly beefing up of the spar carry-trough tubes. Correct me if I'm
wrong listers.
Clint's numbers are real-world. What's the kit s/n on your 2 Bob?
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1
--- On Tue, 7/1/08, Bob Brennan <matronics@bob.brennan.name> wrote:
From: Bob Brennan <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Performance stats for a Model II
Those numbers certainly sound more realistic Clint. I got the numbers from
the "Kitfox Owners Manual Model II" that came with the logbooks, and I
assume came with the original kit from Denney. However the title on the
Performance page says "Performance KITFOX Model III" and I am reading under
the "Rotax 582LC, solo" column. I always thought the "III" was a typo since
all the other data seems to match, and I have always been led to believe I
have a Model II.
So I guess my question changes to - is 75ft takeoff and 100ft landing and
1600fpm climb out valid for a Model III? Does anyone have access to Model II
performance pages that they can scan for me please? And what are the major
recognisable differences between a Model II and III?
Bob Brennan
1991 Model 2(?!) Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clint Bazzill
Sent: 01 July 2008 3:30 pm
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Performance stats for a Model II
I don't know where you are getting your information. My Kitfox Pilot's
Guide says that a Model II 582 powered aircraft has a take off distance of
250 feet, landing ground roll of 250 feet and climb rate of 900 feet /
minute.
Clint
_____
From: matronics@bob.brennan.name
Subject: Kitfox-List: Performance stats for a Model II
Hi all - I have a general question about the published performance stats for
my Model II, they don't seem to be realistic.
Specifically - the takeoff distance is listed as 75ft, landing roll as
100ft, both "solo". I've done some pretty quick off-the-grounders with a
good headwind and no fuel to speak of, but 75ft?(!) Is this possibly an
interpolated number for the aircraft at "empty" weight with no pilot or
fuel? Obviously performance specs differ for every pilot/plane combination
but I thought specs were for a typical 170(?)lb pilot at 0 MSL on a perfect
day. I'm not that far off 170lb (well, not TOO far that a gallon or 2 of gas
wouldn't make up for...)
Climb-out is listed as 1600fpm. In which parallel universe? I have achieved
900fpm sustained on a good day, alone, light fuel, and having recently
lightened my own load (I call it "dumping ballast").
I have tested Vne, stall speeds in various configurations, best angle and
best rate of climb, etc but not MTOW or max Gs, and have no intention of
doing so, but with takeoff/landing distances and rate-of-climb seemingly so
far off I have to wonder about the other stats.
Yes - the airplane is configured as stated in the performance data column
and the engine only had 80 hours since a complete overhaul so I don't think
age was a factor. The prop is a ground-adjustable type and was tested and
re-set early in flight testing although I don't know if the setting is for
optimal performance, that's the only thing I can think of.
Thanks in advance,
Bob Brennan
1991 Model 2 Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
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Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? |
> I'm pretty sure it was a stock Speedster with 912. Jimmy Franklin was about as
good as they get and could probably have done aerobatics in an ultra light without
over stressing it.
>
> Deke Morisse
> Mikado Michigan
> S5/Subaru/CAP 380+ TT
Likewise but I think Jimmy refused to fly with an IVO prop as he was afraid when
coming down the prop might flex enough to hit the cowling. I think he opted
for the GSC.
I have a G meter in my IV and a great investment for anyone.
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192546#192546
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Hydraulic Lock |
I had my first taste of hydraulic lock today. I was away for 2 weeks and
this am I went to turn over my 912 and the prop would not budge. Someone
suggested putting a shut off valve in the oil line to prevent the drain
down. What if 2 valves were put in line parallel and one was electrically
operated to open when you start your engine and the other was a manual valve
that you would open by hand before flight. That would prevent taking off
with the oil shut off. Anyone know it this would be feasable?
Pete
Kitfox III 912ul
Hell Paso, TX
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Hydraulic Lock |
Not a bad idea to add a valve. Just be sure it is a full flow one.
Meaning the flow path is the same as thje ID of the hose. You wont
have much luck finding an electric one that is full flow. But give it a try.
Paul
===============
At 05:44 PM 7/13/2008, you wrote:
><apeterchristensen@sbcglobal.net>
>
>I had my first taste of hydraulic lock today. I was away for 2
>weeks and this am I went to turn over my 912 and the prop would not
>budge. Someone suggested putting a shut off valve in the oil line
>to prevent the drain down. What if 2 valves were put in line
>parallel and one was electrically operated to open when you start
>your engine and the other was a manual valve that you would open by
>hand before flight. That would prevent taking off with the oil shut
>off. Anyone know it this would be feasable?
>
>Pete
>Kitfox III 912ul
>Hell Paso, TX
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | 912s installation |
Right... It's an engine I got out of Illinois over the winter.
The mount I'm using is one for a mod IV that I got from John McB
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chenoweth
Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 8:14 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 912s installation
Noel,
Thanks very much. After reading your comments I'm hoping the fact that I'm
doing this with a IV-1200 will mean less complexity. Your thoughts on the
mounting procedure sound about right from what I've recently learned and
that is my plan. You're going to a 912 not a 912S, right?
Regards,
Bill
Sigtaturea
Noel Loveys
Campbellton, NL, Canada
CDN AME intern, PP-Rec
C-FINB, Kitfox III-A
Soon 912 W/ Warp, Aerocet 1100 floats
noelloveys@yahoo.ca
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chenoweth
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 1:35 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: 912s installation
I'm going to start the conversion from my blue-head 582 to a 912S (on my
IV-1200) next week and I'm hoping to find someone with some pictures of the
912S installation in the IV-1200 that I can use as a guide. I have the
Kitfox IV firewall forward manual from John McBean but some pictures of the
installation in general and in particular of the oil cooler and cabin heater
installations would be very helpful.
The motor mount with side-mount brackets and other firewall forward stuff
are available for sale at what I guarantee will be reasonable prices.
Bill
Albion, Maine
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
_____
7/9/2008 6:50 AM
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Hydraulic Lock |
Pete,
I have thought a lot about this over the years and even made a device that
would minimize back flow but never installed it because it would have meant
cutting the oil pick-up tube in the tank and I never could get myself to do
that. The thought did occur to me as I read your post, that my oil pressure
would routinely rise to operating pressure during cranking. I used the
method devised by Clint Bazzill where I would crank for several seconds with
the ignition off then crank with the ignition on for a quick start. If a
pilot was disciplined enough to carefully monitor the oil pressure during
initial cranking, forgetting to open a valve would not be an issue as it
would be immediately obvious.
Then with most runways a distanced away from the start area, I suspect there
would never be a chance to take to the air with no oil flow. I suspect for
the most part the preflight valve check would be engine saving rather than
bacon saving.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pete Christensen" <apeterchristensen@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 4:44 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Hydraulic Lock
> <apeterchristensen@sbcglobal.net>
>
> I had my first taste of hydraulic lock today. I was away for 2 weeks and
> this am I went to turn over my 912 and the prop would not budge. Someone
> suggested putting a shut off valve in the oil line to prevent the drain
> down. What if 2 valves were put in line parallel and one was electrically
> operated to open when you start your engine and the other was a manual
> valve that you would open by hand before flight. That would prevent
> taking off with the oil shut off. Anyone know it this would be feasable?
>
> Pete
> Kitfox III 912ul
> Hell Paso, TX
>
>
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? |
JetPilot,
Here are my thoughts...Kindof random..
For me and my speedster...barrel rolls are cool..but its easy to get way out on
the yaw...aileron rolls the same way...gotta work the heck out of the rudder
to master yaw. Loops pretty easy too...but it could use more up elevator sometimes,
so watch the speed on the down side.
Thats about all I do with it on purpose. I have a g'meter and take care to go
easy on the G's.
The area I think about is and inspect closely is the longeron tubes just aft of
the seats back to the Horizontals attach points , as There is not alot of structure
there and in my mind, when I get a little sideways in the air...I think
about the forces on the tail and the tubes in this area.
Somewhere I have a doc that tells about the MK4 Speedster and it G'loading test
and aerobatic testing done by SkyStar, and I cant remember for certain, but the
aerobatic ratings were all at a lower gross...like 1100 or something. I never
do any extreme attitude manuvers with a passenger, or even full fuel for that
matter to keep the max stress within reason. Seldom hit 3 G's...but...I am
no expert, so, sometimes....errrr.......That recall feature on the G'meter tells
how bad I did.
Also keep in mind...this stuff is for a Mk4 Speedster...not a long wing. or any
earlier models. Although I have no doubt that rolls in a long wing should be
a none issue, and of course watch the G's
Heres a link to Jimmy Franklins flight at OshKosh in the Speedster demo bird. (You
will see that even Jimmy had yaw to deal with.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6Xj8FOUtGc
It wont handle like a 150 aerobat, not even close. Much Quicker rates and harder
to keep the yaw in check.
And if you enter a roll like you do in a Pitts, by slamming the stick over to
the stop...it will roll so fast you will bang your head on the window. (dang near
either one!)
--------
Don G.
Central Illinois
Kitfox IV Speedster
Luscombe 8A
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