---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 07/13/08: 27 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:32 AM - Re: Re: GSC prop pitch angle (JC Propeller Design) 2. 01:34 AM - Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (Michel Verheughe) 3. 04:47 AM - Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (LarryM) 4. 05:02 AM - Urethane hose warning (LarryM) 5. 05:49 AM - Re: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (Dan Billingsley) 6. 06:09 AM - Re: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (Rexinator) 7. 06:19 AM - Re: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (fox5flyer) 8. 06:20 AM - Re: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (mdkitfox@aol.com) 9. 06:25 AM - Re: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (mdkitfox@aol.com) 10. 06:27 AM - Re: Re: Temporary strut fairing (mscotter@comcast.net) 11. 07:48 AM - Re: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (floran higgins) 12. 09:48 AM - Re: Temporary strut fairing (Mnflyer) 13. 11:35 AM - Re: Temporary strut fairing (dave) 14. 12:40 PM - Re: Temporary strut fairing (Tom Jones) 15. 12:40 PM - Re: 912s installation (Noel Loveys) 16. 01:55 PM - Re: Temporary strut fairing (Mnflyer) 17. 03:48 PM - Re: 912s installation (Chenoweth) 18. 04:19 PM - Proper prop (John Ross) 19. 04:21 PM - Re: Re: GSC prop pitch angle (Noel Loveys) 20. 04:27 PM - Re: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (Noel Loveys) 21. 04:36 PM - Re: Performance stats for a Model II (Noel Loveys) 22. 04:44 PM - Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (dave) 23. 04:48 PM - Re: Hydraulic Lock (Pete Christensen) 24. 05:24 PM - Re: Re: Hydraulic Lock (paul wilson) 25. 06:30 PM - Re: 912s installation (Noel Loveys) 26. 07:29 PM - Re: Re: Hydraulic Lock (Lowell Fitt) 27. 08:51 PM - Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? (Don G) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:32:44 AM PST US From: "JC Propeller Design" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: GSC prop pitch angle That's with a calibrated RPM meter. Jan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Morissette" Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 1:26 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: GSC prop pitch angle > > Hi > > Not sure how much of this thread I've missed but according to the kitfox > manual a 3 blade GSC prop set at 16.5* should yield 5200rpm static. > > Brian > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kyle > Sent: July 11, 2008 4:17 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: GSC prop pitch angle > > > So back to my original question, does about 13 degrees of pitch sound > about > right to be getting 5,000-5,100 RPM static at WOT? Or is my Tach. giving > me > incorrect readings. > Thanks, > > -------- > Kyle Dunn > Eddyville, Kentucky > Kitfox IV 1200 912 Rotax > 1978 Cessna 172 N > American Aero Phoenix II w/582 Rotax > Rotorway Exec. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192309#192309 > > > __________ NOD32 2838 (20080131) Information __________ > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:34:29 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Kitfox-List: RE: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? Fear not, I will never do anything more than ... errr, a 60 degrees bank, Mike! > From: Rexinator [hefferans@gmail.com] > What was your pitch atitude when you began the roll in X-Plane? A slight dive, Rex, to make sure I have enough speed. > I tried to play with rudder while rolling to control longitudinal axis > with yaw input as I was rolling. It seemed to help a little, but it's > tricky to get right. Exactly, I am sure that it is my lousy rudder control that is the reason of the bad roll. But ... a roll is much easier in other aircraft, especially if they have a strong engine, low wings that are really at the CoG of the aircraft in the three dimensions. Cheers, Michel Verheughe Norway Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:47:25 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? From: "LarryM" I have found that the STOL wing Avid (uncambered) can not remain in a spin because the wing will not stayed stalled and the spin quickly (less than 1/4 turn) will develop into a high speed spiral. I have tried it at all cg locations and found it to be the same. In fact, I could not stall the wing in a cross controlled configuration. The plane will sink, as its not developing enough lift, but not stall. When changing from the cross- control to co-ordinated, it will "Avid stall", which is along the lines of a typical stall, but the recovers itself. I found that this wing/airplane if held still full back will simple lob the nose up, somewhat stall, nose will then somewhat drop and regain speed to repeat the cycle as long as you want to keep the stick full aft. You will loose altitude with each cycle. For the reason of the rapid speed build up, I choose not to spin the stol wing and recommend the same to others. I'd also like to restate that this was in the stol Avid, not KF, but I think that the early models were very similar. Mentioned only for the perspective of experience, I have 1,000 of aerobatic hrs. Have fun & be careful, larry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192439#192439 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:02:13 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Urethane hose warning From: "LarryM" I found that Urethane hose is NOT suitable with anti- freeze and suffer a ruptured vent line due to the hose internal deterioration in a very short period of time. My experience forces me to proclaim it all all - DONT USE IT for anti-freeze situations! larry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192441#192441 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:49:34 AM PST US From: Dan Billingsley Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? It is my understanding that the Kitfox is designed sound enough to perform light aerobatics. Does anyone know if the KF that Jimmy Franklin flew had any structural enhancements made to it? I was once told it was just a stock plane with a Rotax 912 (80 HP). I know many of you are familiar with the video on youtube, but for those who are new...do a search for Jimmy Franklin, Kitfox. Remember, he was a professional and like many others have advised...don't try this at home without instructor training. Dan B, Mesa, AZ KF-IV, 912s (painting) LarryM wrote: I have found that the STOL wing Avid (uncambered) can not remain in a spin because the wing will not stayed stalled and the spin quickly (less than 1/4 turn) will develop into a high speed spiral. I have tried it at all cg locations and found it to be the same. In fact, I could not stall the wing in a cross controlled configuration. The plane will sink, as its not developing enough lift, but not stall. When changing from the cross- control to co-ordinated, it will "Avid stall", which is along the lines of a typical stall, but the recovers itself. I found that this wing/airplane if held still full back will simple lob the nose up, somewhat stall, nose will then somewhat drop and regain speed to repeat the cycle as long as you want to keep the stick full aft. You will loose altitude with each cycle. For the reason of the rapid speed build up, I choose not to spin the stol wing and recommend the same to others. I'd also like to restate that this was in the stol Avid, not KF, but I think that the early models were very similar. Mentioned only for the perspective of experience, I have 1,000 of aerobatic hrs. Have fun & be careful, larry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192439#192439 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:09:05 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? From: Rexinator Yes this discussion is at least "for educational purposes". :-) As Larry points out about the STOL wing characterisics in a spin, those characteristics may have a undesirable effect on rolls. For M1-M3 STOL wing versions plus the slow Vne would require a much slower roll entry speed than is typical for an Aerobat (or Citabria) which were considered only an adequate aerobatic platform. I would expect even more loss of altitude with each roll. So with my limited aerobatic experience while I might consider attempting some aerobatics in my M2 I also possibly would find them less satisfying. It would still be fun for a while at least. -- Rex Hefferan SE Colorado / K-II / 582-C / still waiting repairs JetPilot wrote: > >Rex, > >I usually started the rolls as you described, dive to get a bunch of speed, then pull up to about 20 degree climb, start roll... Top rudder at the 90 degree and 270 degree part of the roll played a major part in keeping the nose from going down to much an getting into a dive, not rudder with ailerons, but rudder to keep the nose up, which in a right hand roll was first left rudder coming up and passing through 90 degrees and then right rudder approaching and passing 270 degrees. I was able to do an infinite number of rolls by going very high in the 150 aerobat, and just accepting a rolling descent using this technique. > >I also fly RC, but I don think it helps much to teach aerobatics, as the RC planes can pull an incredible amount of G's, and take more abuse than a real plane ever could and you would never even feel it. So you could be making mistakes in an RC plane that would rip a full scale airplane apart and not even realize it. > >I hear the Kitfox rolls at a really fast rate, which makes rolls easier, but its what you don't know that will bite you, which is why I would want to know what to expect from guys that have done it before I would try something like that. Some may think I sound crazy for asking this, but the crazy thing would be to try something like this without talking to and learning from those that have been doing this. > >Mike > >-------- >"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! > >Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:19:16 AM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? I'm pretty sure it was a stock Speedster with 912. Jimmy Franklin was about as good as they get and could probably have done aerobatics in an ultra light without over stressing it. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 380+ TT "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan Billingsley To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 8:45 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? It is my understanding that the Kitfox is designed sound enough to perform light aerobatics. Does anyone know if the KF that Jimmy Franklin flew had any structural enhancements made to it? I was once told it was just a stock plane with a Rotax 912 (80 HP). I know many of you are familiar with the video on youtube, but for those who are new...do a search for Jimmy Franklin, Kitfox. Remember, he was a professional and like many others have advised...don't try this at home without instructor training. Dan B, Mesa, AZ KF-IV, 912s (painting) LarryM wrote: I have found that the STOL wing Avid (uncambered) can not remain in a spin because the wing will not stayed stalled and the spin quickly (less than 1/4 turn) will develop into a high speed spiral. I have tried it at all cg locations and found it to be the same. In fact, I could not stall the wing in a cross controlled configuration. The plane will sink, as its not developing enough lift, but not stall. When changing from the cross- control to co-ordinated, it will "Avid stall", which is along the lines of a typical stall, but the recovers itself. I found that this wing/airplane if held still full back will simple lob the nose up, somewhat stall, nose will then somewhat drop and regain speed to repeat the cycle as long as you want to keep the stick full aft. You will loose altitude with each cycle. For the reason of the rapid speed build up, I choose not to spin the stol wing and recommend the same to others. I'd also like to restate that this was in the stol Avid, not KF, but I think that the early models were very similar. Mentioned only for the perspective of experience, I have 1,000 of aerobatic hrs. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:20:14 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: RE: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? From: mdkitfox@aol.com Michel, Multi engine airplanes are different animals than singles. =C2-In fact som e multi's cannot recover from a deep, high speed, or full stall without goin g into a spin and eating up a lot of altitude before and IF it can ever be r ecovered. =C2-Sometimes, if the spin can be stopped, a steep spiral is ent ered and the speed builds up quickly, well beyond Vne, and the aircraft come s apart. =C2-There are some multi's, jets for instance, that you should ne ver stall because they are=C2-simply=C2-not recoverable. =C2-That's wh y stick shakers are usually on board. =C2-These devices vibrate the stick to alert the pilot a stall is being approached. =C2-If the pilot refuses t o correct the condition, the stick will automatically push forward to avoid the stall. =C2-What this means is the designers know if the aircraft stall s, the airplane will never recover, regardless of the altitude, so the nose is pushed down in a last ditch attempt for the aircraft to save itself. =C2 -Thus, most multi instruction includes a lot of stall recognition work and the full stall is avoided.=C2- I would guess the Swearingen should not be stalled, but recovered before it fully develops. =C2-I would also surmise it is unrecoverable, and it is ce rtified such that spins, (and stalls) are not permitted. =C2-Low altitude steep turns can quickly get out of hand in such a clean airplane. =C2-A sp iral or high speed stall can be encountered, and that's pretty much the end of the story. =C2-None of this true in20our airplanes as they can be recov ered without much problem, as long as the aircraft is within CG limits. Rick Weiss Series V Speedster -----Original Message----- From: Michel Verheughe Sent: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 4:26 pm Subject: Kitfox-List: RE: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? > From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt@jps.net] > I just started to do some 90=C2=B0 bank, 180=C2=B0 turns in my IV ... Holy cow! I feel sick simply by reading your emails, guys! What I don't understand is that, a few weeks ago a Norwegian Coast Guard twi n engine plane (Swearingen SA-226T Merlin III) went down in the sea, killing t he three people on board. The weather was not good but they were out on an IFR training. Now, I hear that the first report based on the analysis of the wreck says: T hey went in a stall at about 6,000 ft. ... how can you dive to death doing a stall that hight? A flat spin? I don't get it. Cheers, Michel Verheughe Norway Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 


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________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:25:25 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? From: mdkitfox@aol.com Jimmy Franklin flew the stock Model IV Speedster that SkyStar used as a demo nstrator. =C2-No mods or enhancements. =C2-It was a 912, 80HP. =C2-I r emember watching the demo at Oshkosh with Phil Reed who owned the Company at the time. =C2-He couldn't watch the show. =C2-It made him too nervous. =C2-He said the Company's future was on the line if the show ended 'poorly '. Rick Weiss Series V Speedster -----Original Message----- From: Dan Billingsley Sent: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 8:45 am Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? It is my understanding that the Kitfox is designed sound enough to perform l ight aerobatics. Does anyone know if the KF that Jimmy Franklin flew had any structural enhancements made to it? I was once told it was just a stock pla ne with a Rotax 912 (80 HP).=C2-I know many of you are familiar with the v ideo on youtube, but for those who are new...do a search for Jimmy Franklin, Kitfox. Remember, he was a professional and like many others have advised.. .don't try this at home without instructor training. =C2- Dan B, Mesa, AZ KF-IV, 912s (painting) LarryM wrote: I have found that the STOL wing Avid (uncambered) can not remain in a spin b ecause the wing will not stayed stalled and the spin quickly (less than 1/4 turn) will develop into a high speed spiral. I have tried=2 0it at all cg locations and found it to be the same. In fact, I could not st all the wing in a cross controlled configuration. The plane will sink, as it s not developing enough lift, but not stall. When changing from the cross- c ontrol to co-ordinated, it will "Avid stall", which is along the lines of a typical stall, but the recovers itself. I found that this wing/airplane if h eld still full back will simple lob the nose up, somewhat stall, nose will t hen somewhat drop and regain speed to repeat the cycle as long as you want t o keep the stick full aft. You will loose altitude with each cycle. For the reason of the rapid speed build up, I choose not to spin the stol wi ng and recommend the same to others. I'd also like to restate that this was in the stol Avid, not KF, but I think that the early models were very simila r. Mentioned only for the perspective of experience, I have 1,000 of aerobat ic hrs. ========3D= ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:27:22 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Temporary strut fairing From: mscotter@comcast.net Seems pretty simple to me. Less drag = less sink. ------Original Message------ From: Tom Jones Sender: Kitfox list ReplyTo: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Jul 8, 2008 6:03 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Temporary strut fairing Well the wind finally quit blowing in windy Ellensburg this morning so I was able to test the wood strut fairing attached with duct tape. Near as I can tell true air speed at 4000 feet DA and 5800 RPM increased from 78 mph to 82 mph. Climb rate did not change. The biggest supprise to me was the sink rate at a 50 to 55 mph approach speed decreased a lot. I made my normal close in base to final and over shot the first two runway exits. I tried a second landing and was way high over the threshold again. Is there a logical reason for this or do I just need to learn to fly again? -------- Tom Jones Classic IV 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp Ellensburg, WA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=191833#191833 Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:48:10 AM PST US From: "floran higgins" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: RE: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? Many years ago, when I was in the Air Force we were told not to spin the F-89 as it would lose 20,000 ft per turn. Floran Higgins Helena Mt. Speedster 912ULS ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michel Verheughe" Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 2:26 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: RE: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? > Fear not, I will never do anything more than ... errr, a 60 degrees bank, > Mike! > >> From: Rexinator [hefferans@gmail.com] >> What was your pitch atitude when you began the roll in X-Plane? > > A slight dive, Rex, to make sure I have enough speed. > >> I tried to play with rudder while rolling to control longitudinal axis >> with yaw input as I was rolling. It seemed to help a little, but it's >> tricky to get right. > > Exactly, I am sure that it is my lousy rudder control that is the reason > of the bad roll. But ... a roll is much easier in other aircraft, > especially if they have a strong engine, low wings that are really at the > CoG of the aircraft in the three dimensions. > > Cheers, > Michel Verheughe > Norway > Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 > > > 

>
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________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:48:53 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Temporary strut fairing From: "Mnflyer" Hi thats what I found with my plane when I installed the stearmline fairings, the plane just didn't slow down like before less drag one has to make a little longer approach, once you get use to it its just like before. Another thing I found with mine is its stabler at cruise and I like the looks. -------- GB MNFlyer Flying a HKS Kitfox III Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192473#192473 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:35:57 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Temporary strut fairing From: "dave" > dave > > Joined: 22 Sep 2006 > Posts: 869 > > Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 8:13 pm Post subject: Re: Temporary strut fairing > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Tom, I will guess you will see 5 mph gain. > > Near as I can tell true air speed at 4000 feet DA and 5800 RPM increased from 78 mph to 82 mph. Climb rate did not change Looks Like I was close there in my 5 mph guessimate. :-) Hopefully a little more tweaking and you will see a few more MPH . -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada Flying Videos and Kitfox Info http://www.cfisher.com/ Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192496#192496 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:40:02 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Temporary strut fairing From: "Tom Jones" I was over at the Arlington WA fly in on Friday and talked to Debora at the Kitfox LLC booth about their PVC fairing. I liked the looks of how they have it installed on their demonstrators. I will probably order some. She said on their Series 7 they got a 15 mph increase in speed. -------- Tom Jones Classic IV 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp Ellensburg, WA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192500#192500 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:40:57 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 912s installation I'm in the throwes of doing just that to my model III-A which I expect is actually closer to a model II. I'm using the model IV Dynafocal mount and the first thing I've found is attaching the engione to the mount is probably easier to do before installing in the plane. One other item is the cooling hoses from the water pump to the cylinder heads will require having the studs (45 deg) will need to be turned a bit to get a decent access to putting the hoses on the pump. You may also need to turn the 45 deg studs on the aft cylinders to get a decent clearance on the aft hoses. These studs are held in place with green locktite ( penetrating) and will need to be very carefully heated to remove, clean and reinstall in the correct direction. It was advised to me that Llight Engine Rep[airs uses a rod turned down on a lathe to insert into the studs for removal. I don't happen to have a lathe or any 1" aluminium stock so I had to substitute brass and a file. If you want to try this remember the old rule don't grind anything that doesn't spark so use a file. It may take a lot longer but it will be worth it. Also be careful removing the top of the pump.. you may want to do that to get a better grasp on the part and to remove the O-ring that is inside the pump inlet. Pictures following: Lord mounts and wiring harness will be hard to position on the airplane. I recommend getting the engine fully read then install the engine and mount in one piece. Be careful to make sure the mount fits perfectly before starting working on the engine. This engine has the older style ignition and care must be taken with it. P7130021.JPG I removed the pump back plate to remove the hose nipples so they can be reinstalled in the right directions. Looks like I may have to do the same thing with the nipples in the rear cylinders. P7130022.JPG Hose nipples may direct the hoses to rub on the motor mount. I expect to have to use longer hoses. P7130024.JPG I made a tool out of a piece of brass round stock to assist removing the nipples from the pump top plate. A careful amount of heat was applied to the nipple only to break the Locktite. Slow and easy using minimum heat to avoid cracking or pinching the nipples. Green, penetrating Locktite will be used to reinstall the nipples in a direction that won't interfere with the mount. P7130027.JPG Sigtaturea Noel Loveys Campbellton, NL, Canada CDN AME intern, PP-Rec C-FINB, Kitfox III-A Soon 912 W/ Warp, Aerocet 1100 floats noelloveys@yahoo.ca From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chenoweth Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 1:35 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: 912s installation I'm going to start the conversion from my blue-head 582 to a 912S (on my IV-1200) next week and I'm hoping to find someone with some pictures of the 912S installation in the IV-1200 that I can use as a guide. I have the Kitfox IV firewall forward manual from John McBean but some pictures of the installation in general and in particular of the oil cooler and cabin heater installations would be very helpful. The motor mount with side-mount brackets and other firewall forward stuff are available for sale at what I guarantee will be reasonable prices. Bill Albion, Maine ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:55:13 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Temporary strut fairing From: "Mnflyer" Hi Tom, I installed the PVC type fairings in May of this year and got about 6 to 8 mph increase in cruise. I had all the balsa cut and spade when these came up for sale, and the installation is a lot simpler. -------- GB MNFlyer Flying a HKS Kitfox III Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192510#192510 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 03:48:57 PM PST US From: "Chenoweth" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 912s installation Noel, Thanks very much. After reading your comments I'm hoping the fact that I'm doing this with a IV-1200 will mean less complexity. Your thoughts on the mounting procedure sound about right from what I've recently learned and that is my plan. You're going to a 912 not a 912S, right? Regards, Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: Noel Loveys To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 3:37 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 912s installation I'm in the throwes of doing just that to my model III-A which I expect is actually closer to a model II. I'm using the model IV Dynafocal mount and the first thing I've found is attaching the engione to the mount is probably easier to do before installing in the plane. One other item is the cooling hoses from the water pump to the cylinder heads will require having the studs (45 deg) will need to be turned a bit to get a decent access to putting the hoses on the pump. You may also need to turn the 45 deg studs on the aft cylinders to get a decent clearance on the aft hoses. These studs are held in place with green locktite ( penetrating) and will need to be very carefully heated to remove, clean and reinstall in the correct direction. It was advised to me that Llight Engine Rep[airs uses a rod turned down on a lathe to insert into the studs for removal. I don't happen to have a lathe or any 1" aluminium stock so I had to substitute brass and a file. If you want to try this remember the old rule don't grind anything that doesn't spark so use a file. It may take a lot longer but it will be worth it. Also be careful removing the top of the pump.. you may want to do that to get a better grasp on the part and to remove the O-ring that is inside the pump inlet. Pictures following: Lord mounts and wiring harness will be hard to position on the airplane. I recommend getting the engine fully read then install the engine and mount in one piece. Be careful to make sure the mount fits perfectly before starting working on the engine. This engine has the older style ignition and care must be taken with it. I removed the pump back plate to remove the hose nipples so they can be reinstalled in the right directions. Looks like I may have to do the same thing with the nipples in the rear cylinders. Hose nipples may direct the hoses to rub on the motor mount. I expect to have to use longer hoses. I made a tool out of a piece of brass round stock to assist removing the nipples from the pump top plate. A careful amount of heat was applied to the nipple only to break the Locktite. Slow and easy using minimum heat to avoid cracking or pinching the nipples. Green, penetrating Locktite will be used to reinstall the nipples in a direction that won't interfere with the mount. Noel Loveys Campbellton, NL, Canada CDN AME intern, PP-Rec C-FINB, Kitfox III-A Soon 912 W/ Warp, Aerocet 1100 floats noelloveys@yahoo.ca From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chenoweth Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 1:35 PM To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Subject: Kitfox-List: 912s installation I'm going to start the conversion from my blue-head 582 to a 912S (on my IV-1200) next week and I'm hoping to find someone with some pictures of the 912S installation in the IV-1200 that I can use as a guide. I have the Kitfox IV firewall forward manual from John McBean but some pictures of the installation in general and in particular of the oil cooler and cabin heater installations would be very helpful. The motor mount with side-mount brackets and other firewall forward stuff are available for sale at what I guarantee will be reasonable prices. Bill Albion, Maine http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG. 7/9/2008 6:50 AM ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 04:19:10 PM PST US From: John Ross Subject: Kitfox-List: Proper prop Can anyone give me any insight into the proper propeller selection for an O -200? I would like any input on not-only a stock aluminum, but ground adj ustable and in flight adjustable units. -Thanks.=0AJohn Ross =0AGreen Bay , WI=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 04:21:40 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: GSC prop pitch angle There are some variables in there like the reduction of your PSRU. My best advice would be to get a TinyTach and test it. Noel Loveys AME Intern, RPP Kitfox III-A, 912 on the way Ivo IFA, Aerocet 1100 floats -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kyle Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 5:47 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: GSC prop pitch angle So back to my original question, does about 13 degrees of pitch sound about right to be getting 5,000-5,100 RPM static at WOT? Or is my Tach. giving me incorrect readings. Thanks, -------- Kyle Dunn Eddyville, Kentucky Kitfox IV 1200 912 Rotax 1978 Cessna 172 N American Aero Phoenix II w/582 Rotax Rotorway Exec. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192309#192309 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 04:27:17 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: RE: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? Michel: My best guess, and that's all it is, would be icing. Everything seems to fit for that. A large body of salt water, twin engine with lots of power and IFR. I lost a friend many years ago for what we guess was the same reason. He was flying a Grumman Widgeon... They eventually found his leather flight jacket... inside out. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michel Verheughe Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 5:57 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: RE: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? > From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt@jps.net] > I just started to do some 90 bank, 180 turns in my IV ... Holy cow! I feel sick simply by reading your emails, guys! What I don't understand is that, a few weeks ago a Norwegian Coast Guard twin engine plane (Swearingen SA-226T Merlin III) went down in the sea, killing the three people on board. The weather was not good but they were out on an IFR training. Now, I hear that the first report based on the analysis of the wreck says: They went in a stall at about 6,000 ft. ... how can you dive to death doing a stall that hight? A flat spin? I don't get it. Cheers, Michel Verheughe Norway Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 


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________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 04:36:30 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Performance stats for a Model II My baby, The Beothuck Explorer, is #736 and was supposed to be upgraded to model III. Personally I don't see where any upgrades were done but for the record it was registered as a Kitfox Model III-A Sigtaturea Noel Loveys Campbellton, NL, Canada CDN AME intern, PP-Rec C-FINB, Kitfox III-A 912 almost ready to hang, Aerocet 1100 floats noelloveys@yahoo.ca From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 11:14 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Performance stats for a Model II Finally found the serial number in the paperwork - #705. Since Model 2 ranged from #258 to #748 you could cetainly call mine "the last of the 2's". So I guess I have a model 2.5, or maybe even a 2.9 Bob Brennan 1991 UK Model 2.x Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes Sent: 02 July 2008 10:37 am Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Performance stats for a Model II Bob: I don't know whether the s/n is stamped somewhere on the airframe. Maybe someone out there knows? I only know mine from the paperwork I got when I bought the airplane. (S/n 374, delivered in 1989). I've heard here that there was some "blending" of the models between the last of the 2's and first of the 3's. Certainly, as non-structural mods were made these were incorporated into many kits then in-progress. Marco Menezes N99KX Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 --- On Wed, 7/2/08, Bob Brennan wrote: From: Bob Brennan Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Performance stats for a Model II Hi Marco - where do I find the serial number? My plane was finished in 1991 but I believe was worked on for several years, so may be a mixture of II and III? I don't think I can do a takeoff in 75ft but less than 250ft would be easy, as would a slightly more than 100ft roll-out with a little precision and practice. The previous owner bragged of being able to do a "vertical" landing given enough headwind, and it's not too difficult to achieve 0mph groundspeed at altitude with full flaps, nose high, and power. I also don't think 1600fpm sustained is possible in my Kitfox but 1000 is typical and I would guess I could push that to 1200 on a good day and no breakfast. I thought that Model II to III was a beefing up for more MTOW as Marco said plus a larger tail assembly to correct the loss of control authority at low speeds, hardly anything that would increase performance stats as published. The 2 pages from my "Kitfox Owners Manual Model II" are the same as http://cfisher.com/kitfox/kitfox2poh.pdf except that mine say "Model III" at the top, which is obviously wrong. Bob Brennan 1991 Model 2(?) Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes Sent: 01 July 2008 8:23 pm Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Performance stats for a Model II Can't imagine the mods made to the 3 to increase MTOW to 1050 could possibly make much difference in the relative performance numbers. As I recall, it was mostly beefing up of the spar carry-trough tubes. Correct me if I'm wrong listers. Clint's numbers are real-world. What's the kit s/n on your 2 Bob? Marco Menezes N99KX Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 --- On Tue, 7/1/08, Bob Brennan wrote: From: Bob Brennan Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Performance stats for a Model II Those numbers certainly sound more realistic Clint. I got the numbers from the "Kitfox Owners Manual Model II" that came with the logbooks, and I assume came with the original kit from Denney. However the title on the Performance page says "Performance KITFOX Model III" and I am reading under the "Rotax 582LC, solo" column. I always thought the "III" was a typo since all the other data seems to match, and I have always been led to believe I have a Model II. So I guess my question changes to - is 75ft takeoff and 100ft landing and 1600fpm climb out valid for a Model III? Does anyone have access to Model II performance pages that they can scan for me please? And what are the major recognisable differences between a Model II and III? Bob Brennan 1991 Model 2(?!) Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clint Bazzill Sent: 01 July 2008 3:30 pm Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Performance stats for a Model II I don't know where you are getting your information. My Kitfox Pilot's Guide says that a Model II 582 powered aircraft has a take off distance of 250 feet, landing ground roll of 250 feet and climb rate of 900 feet / minute. Clint _____ From: matronics@bob.brennan.name Subject: Kitfox-List: Performance stats for a Model II Hi all - I have a general question about the published performance stats for my Model II, they don't seem to be realistic. Specifically - the takeoff distance is listed as 75ft, landing roll as 100ft, both "solo". I've done some pretty quick off-the-grounders with a good headwind and no fuel to speak of, but 75ft?(!) Is this possibly an interpolated number for the aircraft at "empty" weight with no pilot or fuel? Obviously performance specs differ for every pilot/plane combination but I thought specs were for a typical 170(?)lb pilot at 0 MSL on a perfect day. I'm not that far off 170lb (well, not TOO far that a gallon or 2 of gas wouldn't make up for...) Climb-out is listed as 1600fpm. In which parallel universe? I have achieved 900fpm sustained on a good day, alone, light fuel, and having recently lightened my own load (I call it "dumping ballast"). I have tested Vne, stall speeds in various configurations, best angle and best rate of climb, etc but not MTOW or max Gs, and have no intention of doing so, but with takeoff/landing distances and rate-of-climb seemingly so far off I have to wonder about the other stats. Yes - the airplane is configured as stated in the performance data column and the engine only had 80 hours since a complete overhaul so I don't think age was a factor. The prop is a ground-adjustable type and was tested and re-set early in flight testing although I don't know if the setting is for optimal performance, that's the only thing I can think of. Thanks in advance, Bob Brennan 1991 Model 2 Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List ttp://forums.matronics.com =_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c 3D=========================3 D=================== href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List"'>http://www.matroni cs.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List 3D=========================3 D=================== href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com 3D=========================3 D=================== href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://www.matronics.com/co ntribution 3D=========================3 D=================== 3D=========================3 D=================== href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List"'>http://www.matroni cs.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List 3D=========================3 D=================== href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com 3D=========================3 D=================== href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://www.matronics.com/co ntribution 3D=========================3 D=================== ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 04:44:30 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? From: "dave" > I'm pretty sure it was a stock Speedster with 912. Jimmy Franklin was about as good as they get and could probably have done aerobatics in an ultra light without over stressing it. > > Deke Morisse > Mikado Michigan > S5/Subaru/CAP 380+ TT Likewise but I think Jimmy refused to fly with an IVO prop as he was afraid when coming down the prop might flex enough to hit the cowling. I think he opted for the GSC. I have a G meter in my IV and a great investment for anyone. -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada Flying Videos and Kitfox Info http://www.cfisher.com/ Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192546#192546 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 04:48:28 PM PST US From: "Pete Christensen" Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Hydraulic Lock I had my first taste of hydraulic lock today. I was away for 2 weeks and this am I went to turn over my 912 and the prop would not budge. Someone suggested putting a shut off valve in the oil line to prevent the drain down. What if 2 valves were put in line parallel and one was electrically operated to open when you start your engine and the other was a manual valve that you would open by hand before flight. That would prevent taking off with the oil shut off. Anyone know it this would be feasable? Pete Kitfox III 912ul Hell Paso, TX ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 05:24:37 PM PST US From: paul wilson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Hydraulic Lock Not a bad idea to add a valve. Just be sure it is a full flow one. Meaning the flow path is the same as thje ID of the hose. You wont have much luck finding an electric one that is full flow. But give it a try. Paul =============== At 05:44 PM 7/13/2008, you wrote: > > >I had my first taste of hydraulic lock today. I was away for 2 >weeks and this am I went to turn over my 912 and the prop would not >budge. Someone suggested putting a shut off valve in the oil line >to prevent the drain down. What if 2 valves were put in line >parallel and one was electrically operated to open when you start >your engine and the other was a manual valve that you would open by >hand before flight. That would prevent taking off with the oil shut >off. Anyone know it this would be feasable? > >Pete >Kitfox III 912ul >Hell Paso, TX > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 06:30:02 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 912s installation Right... It's an engine I got out of Illinois over the winter. The mount I'm using is one for a mod IV that I got from John McB Noel From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chenoweth Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 8:14 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 912s installation Noel, Thanks very much. After reading your comments I'm hoping the fact that I'm doing this with a IV-1200 will mean less complexity. Your thoughts on the mounting procedure sound about right from what I've recently learned and that is my plan. You're going to a 912 not a 912S, right? Regards, Bill Sigtaturea Noel Loveys Campbellton, NL, Canada CDN AME intern, PP-Rec C-FINB, Kitfox III-A Soon 912 W/ Warp, Aerocet 1100 floats noelloveys@yahoo.ca From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chenoweth Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 1:35 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: 912s installation I'm going to start the conversion from my blue-head 582 to a 912S (on my IV-1200) next week and I'm hoping to find someone with some pictures of the 912S installation in the IV-1200 that I can use as a guide. I have the Kitfox IV firewall forward manual from John McBean but some pictures of the installation in general and in particular of the oil cooler and cabin heater installations would be very helpful. The motor mount with side-mount brackets and other firewall forward stuff are available for sale at what I guarantee will be reasonable prices. Bill Albion, Maine http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ 7/9/2008 6:50 AM ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 07:29:10 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Hydraulic Lock Pete, I have thought a lot about this over the years and even made a device that would minimize back flow but never installed it because it would have meant cutting the oil pick-up tube in the tank and I never could get myself to do that. The thought did occur to me as I read your post, that my oil pressure would routinely rise to operating pressure during cranking. I used the method devised by Clint Bazzill where I would crank for several seconds with the ignition off then crank with the ignition on for a quick start. If a pilot was disciplined enough to carefully monitor the oil pressure during initial cranking, forgetting to open a valve would not be an issue as it would be immediately obvious. Then with most runways a distanced away from the start area, I suspect there would never be a chance to take to the air with no oil flow. I suspect for the most part the preflight valve check would be engine saving rather than bacon saving. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Christensen" Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 4:44 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Hydraulic Lock > > > I had my first taste of hydraulic lock today. I was away for 2 weeks and > this am I went to turn over my 912 and the prop would not budge. Someone > suggested putting a shut off valve in the oil line to prevent the drain > down. What if 2 valves were put in line parallel and one was electrically > operated to open when you start your engine and the other was a manual > valve that you would open by hand before flight. That would prevent > taking off with the oil shut off. Anyone know it this would be feasable? > > Pete > Kitfox III 912ul > Hell Paso, TX > > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 08:51:49 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Anyone Do Spins or Aerobatics in a Kitfox ??? From: "Don G" JetPilot, Here are my thoughts...Kindof random.. For me and my speedster...barrel rolls are cool..but its easy to get way out on the yaw...aileron rolls the same way...gotta work the heck out of the rudder to master yaw. Loops pretty easy too...but it could use more up elevator sometimes, so watch the speed on the down side. Thats about all I do with it on purpose. I have a g'meter and take care to go easy on the G's. The area I think about is and inspect closely is the longeron tubes just aft of the seats back to the Horizontals attach points , as There is not alot of structure there and in my mind, when I get a little sideways in the air...I think about the forces on the tail and the tubes in this area. Somewhere I have a doc that tells about the MK4 Speedster and it G'loading test and aerobatic testing done by SkyStar, and I cant remember for certain, but the aerobatic ratings were all at a lower gross...like 1100 or something. I never do any extreme attitude manuvers with a passenger, or even full fuel for that matter to keep the max stress within reason. Seldom hit 3 G's...but...I am no expert, so, sometimes....errrr.......That recall feature on the G'meter tells how bad I did. Also keep in mind...this stuff is for a Mk4 Speedster...not a long wing. or any earlier models. Although I have no doubt that rolls in a long wing should be a none issue, and of course watch the G's Heres a link to Jimmy Franklins flight at OshKosh in the Speedster demo bird. (You will see that even Jimmy had yaw to deal with.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6Xj8FOUtGc It wont handle like a 150 aerobat, not even close. Much Quicker rates and harder to keep the yaw in check. And if you enter a roll like you do in a Pitts, by slamming the stick over to the stop...it will roll so fast you will bang your head on the window. (dang near either one!) -------- Don G. Central Illinois Kitfox IV Speedster Luscombe 8A Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=192594#192594 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.