Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:41 AM - naca inlets (bob noffs)
2. 04:16 AM - Re: Landing and engine pictures (Michel Verheughe)
3. 04:33 AM - Re: naca inlets (Michel Verheughe)
4. 04:34 AM - Re: Turtle Deck Hinge (Ken Potter)
5. 07:17 AM - Re: Re: Landing and engine pictures (Lynn Matteson)
6. 07:29 AM - Re: Turtle Deck Hinge (Marco Menezes)
7. 07:56 AM - Re: Re: Landing and engine pictures (Marco Menezes)
8. 08:12 AM - Re: Re: naca inlets (Lowell Fitt)
9. 08:21 AM - Re: Re: Landing and engine pictures (Lynn Matteson)
10. 08:32 AM - Re: Re: Landing and engine pictures (Wahlquist, Dave)
11. 08:36 AM - Re: Re: Landing and engine pictures (Jim_and_Lucy Chuk)
12. 09:17 AM - Re: Re: Landing and engine pictures (Michael Gibbs)
13. 10:55 AM - Re: Re: naca inlets (Lynn Matteson)
14. 11:03 AM - Re: Re: Landing and engine pictures (Lynn Matteson)
15. 11:41 AM - need a matco disc brake cylinder (Jim_and_Lucy Chuk)
16. 12:04 PM - Re: Landing and engine pictures (Michel Verheughe)
17. 12:36 PM - Re: Landing and engine pictures (Michel Verheughe)
18. 12:47 PM - Re: naca inlets (bigboyzt0yz)
19. 03:11 PM - Re: Landing and engine pictures (fox5flyer)
20. 03:55 PM - Re: Re: Landing and engine pictures (gary.algate@sandvik.com)
21. 04:15 PM - Re: Re: Landing and engine pictures (gary.algate@sandvik.com)
22. 05:26 PM - Re: Turtle Deck Hinge (Ken Potter)
23. 07:18 PM - Re: Re: My First Ground Loop (Noel Loveys)
24. 08:02 PM - Re: Re: Turtle Deck Hinge (Jim_and_Lucy Chuk)
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hi all,
anyone had any experience with turning a naca vent ''backwards'' to
''pull air'' from the cowling? does it work?
bob noffs
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| Subject: | RE: Landing and engine pictures |
Gary and Lynn; one question: why am I on the Jabiru list we I have you guys, here
on the Kitfox one? ... :-))
Thanks a lot for both answers. I will check for oil stain as a pre-flight routine,
Lynn, that's a good idea. I agree with you, Gary, the Jabiru is a fine engine
but - like any engine - it can be subject to failure. If you remember my writing
on the Jabiru list, I have always been the advocate to tolerance and stress
that when we take an engine designed to be installed in a Jabiru aircraft,
but install it in something else, we are entering the world of experimental
aviation with all of its consequences. We are, actually, test pilots.
I am also please to own one of the last solid lifters model. The question to know
if a loose flywheel could be the cause of Lynn's failure is interesting. As
you remember, I was one of the first to comply to the bulletin requesting a retorquing
of them, which I did and illustrated here:
http://home.online.no/~michel/Flywheel
Now, Lynn, where exactly did you see your oil seeping from? I understand that the
timing gear is behind (or rather, in front of, if you look forward) of the
flywheel. But I am not sure where the oil leaks from.
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... grounded.
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</b></font></pre></body></html>
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> From: bob noffs [icubob@newnorth.net]
> anyone had any experience with turning a naca vent ''backwards'' to ''pull air''
> from the cowling? does it work?
I am sure it will work and create a Venturi effect since it goes from a smaller
to a larger volume, Bob. But there might be even better designs. It could be
fun to experiment with e.g. cardboard shapes and water in a transparent tube hold
in an air stream, like the window of your car, to see which shape works best.
The 'lip' at 45 degrees that I moulded under my cowling to cool the Jabiru works
extremely good; I probably have the coolest engine installation. But with aerodynamism,
it takes very little to see things go wrong. For example, I was told
of another very similar installation where the bottom of the aft end of the
cowling has a L-shaped bar and that was enough to invert the flow of air.
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... grounded
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</b></font></pre></body></html>
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| Subject: | Re: Turtle Deck Hinge |
Thanks for the advice everyone. As I will be towing with my truck there is no
issue about space for the turtle deck so I have decided to join the two halves
together in a solid joint.
Cheers
Ken
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197089#197089
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Landing and engine pictures |
I haven't said anything regarding my engine failure on either of the
Jabiru lists, Matronics or Yahoo...yet. I will when I have something
to say, (wink, wink). Still waiting to hear back from Jabiru...they
have been informed of the incident.
Michel, I was right behind you on the flywheel bolt issue...my engine
had the dowels already in place, the existing bolts were tight, and
the engine lasted a good 300 hours (I'm guessing, since I'm not where
my records are) since I complied with that Service Bulletin. Boy,
that was a busy time on the ol' Jabiru site, eh?
My oil was seeping from right below the rear main oil seal. If you
recall, the timing gear provides the surface upon which the oil seal
rides. It's a rather strange design, unlike any I've seen in all the
engines I've dealt with over the years, but then we're in the
aviation world now, where lightness, compactness, and engineering
done to the Nth degree is commonplace. You have to look behind the
flywheel, Michel, from below, to see the area.
I could kick my ass, in hindsight, for not getting right after that
leak after I first saw it. Like I said before, a seeping seal is not
the reason one normally pulls the engine and goes after it. After
all, it's only "seeping", not pouring out, threatening a fire, etc.
But looking back on it, that's what I should have done. Actually, the
repair could have been done with the engine still in the
plane...barely, in my case. The rear cover is all that must be
pulled, and this requires taking the flywheel off. After that is off,
the timing gear cover can be removed, and the timing gears are then
exposed. Even taking the flywheel off and pulling the seal might have
revealed the crack in the timing gear, which in my case could
probably have been seen at that point. From the looks of the broken
pieces, this has been a faulty gear for some time.
My serial number is 2062, Michel, just 5 engines before they went to
wet lifters (hydraulics)....what number is yours? Did you already
have the dowels in your engine?
Guy, if this is getting too far away from "Kitfox" in nature, holler.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster
Jabiru 2200
Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink
Floyd..."Learning to Fly")
On Aug 7, 2008, at 7:15 AM, Michel Verheughe wrote:
> Gary and Lynn; one question: why am I on the Jabiru list we I have
> you guys, here on the Kitfox one? ... :-))
>
> Thanks a lot for both answers. I will check for oil stain as a pre-
> flight routine, Lynn, that's a good idea. I agree with you, Gary,
> the Jabiru is a fine engine but - like any engine - it can be
> subject to failure. If you remember my writing on the Jabiru list,
> I have always been the advocate to tolerance and stress that when
> we take an engine designed to be installed in a Jabiru aircraft,
> but install it in something else, we are entering the world of
> experimental aviation with all of its consequences. We are,
> actually, test pilots.
>
> I am also please to own one of the last solid lifters model. The
> question to know if a loose flywheel could be the cause of Lynn's
> failure is interesting. As you remember, I was one of the first to
> comply to the bulletin requesting a retorquing of them, which I did
> and illustrated here:
> http://home.online.no/~michel/Flywheel
>
> Now, Lynn, where exactly did you see your oil seeping from? I
> understand that the timing gear is behind (or rather, in front of,
> if you look forward) of the flywheel. But I am not sure where the
> oil leaks from.
>
> Cheers,
> Michel Verheughe
> Norway
> Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... grounded.
>
>
> <pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
>
> List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List</a>
> forums.matronics.com</a>
> www.matronics.com/contribution</a>
>
> </b></font></pre>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Turtle Deck Hinge |
Hi Ken.
-
IMHO, the short answer to your question is "no." The hinge does make the as
sembly smaller and thus easier to stow away but that's not really an issue
unless you're constantly trailering as I am. Even that convenience is often
outweighted by the added difficulty-the hinge imposes during one-man ins
tallation, removal-of the t-deck, especially in a wind.
-
Overall, if I were building one today for my model 2, I'd make it one-piece
with a single large window.
-
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box
--- On Wed, 8/6/08, Ken Potter <kjpotter@sympatico.ca> wrote:
From: Ken Potter <kjpotter@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Turtle Deck Hinge
<kjpotter@sympatico.ca>
Hi Folks;
Just completed my turtle deck today but have not yet installed the hinge.
Question; is the hinge needed???????? After fabricating the turtledeck wi
ndows
to be watertight it appears that the hinge will be a sieve. Are there any f
it-up
issues which require the hinge or can I join the two sided together with a
solid
(and waterproof) joint.
Cheers and thanks in advance for your advice
Ken Potter
Kitfox II, No. 483
Rotax 583, C Box
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196988#196988
=0A=0A=0A
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Landing and engine pictures |
I, for one, appreciate the discussion. Re-engining may be in the offing for
me and the Jab 2200 was/is on my short list of possibilities. Please conti
nue.
-
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box
-
--- On Thu, 8/7/08, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net> wrote:
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: RE: Landing and engine pictures
I haven't said anything regarding my engine failure on either of the
Jabiru lists, Matronics or Yahoo...yet. I will when I have something
to say, (wink, wink). Still waiting to hear back from Jabiru...they
have been informed of the incident.
Michel, I was right behind you on the flywheel bolt issue...my engine
had the dowels already in place, the existing bolts were tight, and
the engine lasted a good 300 hours (I'm guessing, since I'm not where
my records are) since I complied with that Service Bulletin. Boy,
that was a busy time on the ol' Jabiru site, eh?
My oil was seeping from right below the rear main oil seal. If you
recall, the timing gear provides the surface upon which the oil seal
rides. It's a rather strange design, unlike any I've seen in all the
engines I've dealt with over the years, but then we're in the
aviation world now, where lightness, compactness, and engineering
done to the Nth degree is commonplace. You have to look behind the
flywheel, Michel, from below, to see the area.
I could kick my ass, in hindsight, for not getting right after that
leak after I first saw it. Like I said before, a seeping seal is not
the reason one normally pulls the engine and goes after it. After
all, it's only "seeping", not pouring out, threatening a fire,
etc.
But looking back on it, that's what I should have done. Actually, the
repair could have been done with the engine still in the
plane...barely, in my case. The rear cover is all that must be
pulled, and this requires taking the flywheel off. After that is off,
the timing gear cover can be removed, and the timing gears are then
exposed. Even taking the flywheel off and pulling the seal might have
revealed the crack in the timing gear, which in my case could
probably have been seen at that point. From the looks of the broken
pieces, this has been a faulty gear for some time.
My serial number is 2062, Michel, just 5 engines before they went to
wet lifters (hydraulics)....what number is yours? Did you already
have the dowels in your engine?
Guy, if this is getting too far away from "Kitfox" in nature, holler.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster
Jabiru 2200
Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink
Floyd..."Learning to Fly")
On Aug 7, 2008, at 7:15 AM, Michel Verheughe wrote:
> Gary and Lynn; one question: why am I on the Jabiru list we I have
> you guys, here on the Kitfox one? ... :-))
>
> Thanks a lot for both answers. I will check for oil stain as a pre-
> flight routine, Lynn, that's a good idea. I agree with you, Gary,
> the Jabiru is a fine engine but - like any engine - it can be
> subject to failure. If you remember my writing on the Jabiru list,
> I have always been the advocate to tolerance and stress that when
> we take an engine designed to be installed in a Jabiru aircraft,
> but install it in something else, we are entering the world of
> experimental aviation with all of its consequences. We are,
> actually, test pilots.
>
> I am also please to own one of the last solid lifters model. The
> question to know if a loose flywheel could be the cause of Lynn's
> failure is interesting. As you remember, I was one of the first to
> comply to the bulletin requesting a retorquing of them, which I did
> and illustrated here:
> http://home.online.no/~michel/Flywheel
>
> Now, Lynn, where exactly did you see your oil seeping from? I
> understand that the timing gear is behind (or rather, in front of,
> if you look forward) of the flywheel. But I am not sure where the
> oil leaks from.
>
> Cheers,
> Michel Verheughe
> Norway
> Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... grounded.
>
>
> <pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000"
face="courier new,courier">
>
> List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List</a>
> forums.matronics.com</a>
> www.matronics.com/contribution</a>
>
> </b></font></pre>
=0A=0A=0A
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| Subject: | Re: RE: naca inlets |
I doubt it. There was an article on NACA vent design in one of the
magazines a time back when I was working on the Lancair. It described the
shape for optimum performance - sharp edges at the surface inlet junction.
This got me thinking that there is more to the shape than the curvy outline.
I think the shape is designed to draw air from a rapidly moving laminar flow
airstream. As it crosses the edge, it rolls into the duct and actually
compresses the air passing through the duct. I don't think you would find
that same efficiency moving air from the cowling to the outside airflow.
A solution might be suggested by looking at a lot of airplanes -
professionally designed and see what they have done. I have never seen a
backward flowing NACA duct on any airplane other than an "experimantal.
Lowell
> From: bob noffs [icubob@newnorth.net]
> anyone had any experience with turning a naca vent ''backwards'' to
> ''pull air''
> from the cowling? does it work?
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Landing and engine pictures |
Thanks for checking into it, Gary.
I did the service bulletin at the time it was issued, and I changed
all the bolts, the originals of which were already at the then-
current torque specs, so no "loose flywheel" at that time. No loose
flywheel at this time either, and no fretting was seen when I took it
off this time. My engine (#2062) had the three dowels already fitted.
Unless they'd like to see my broken gear, and give me some new parts
(yeah, right!), I guess I'l just buy new parts and get back to flying.
Lynn
On Aug 6, 2008, at 9:19 PM, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote:
>
> Lynn
>
> The head engine builder (Don) at Jabiru just called me and we ran
> thru your timing gear failure.
>
> Jabiru Australia have one (1) reported Crankshaft Timing gear
> failure and this happened three years ago at Innisfil (S.Australia)
> on a Jab2200 powered lightwing.
>
> The gear was inspected at Jabiru and heat treat and mfg were all
> within spec. There were no signs of contamination between the gears
> and the final consensus was that the operator may have been
> experiencing pre-ignition or was running with a loose flywheel
> which could have over-stressed the gear.
>
> The gear only runs the camshaft at a 2:1 ratio and is very lightly
> loaded so with over 1500 units in operation and only one recorded
> failure that could not be attributed to component overstress no
> service directive was issued.
>
> They have released directives to ensure all fly-wheel bolts are
> correctly torqued.
>
> Sorry I couldn't get you a more definitive answer but it appears
> that this might have been a 1 off (or 2 - off)
>
> best regards
>
> Gary
>
> Gary Algate
> Kitfox Classic 4 2200A
> Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
>
>
> This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the
> addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of
> this message by persons or entities other than the intended
> recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error,
> kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the
> message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for
> any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may
> arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. _-
> www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List _-
> www.matronics.com/contribution _-
> ===========================================================
Message 10
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| Subject: | RE: Landing and engine pictures |
I have been reading posts on this with great interest. Lynn, I had a
good look at your plane at Oshkosh. It looked great. Who would have
known that it was a few hours away from a situation like you
experienced?
On your seal leaking issue I keep thinking of my experiences in the
auto, snow machine and boat world. In my head I keep coming back to the
fact that in low hour machines or ones that have seals that are only a
few years old a leak was often a sign of a bad bearing or bent shaft or
an out of balance component. Could the cause of your failure be a
bearing on either end of the shaft going bad? Maybe a flywheel balance
weight came loose. In that geared arrangement it wouldn't take too much
slop to really hammer those gears on each other until something lets go.
Just a thought and good luck.
Dave Wahlquist
Marshall WI
Kitfox Model III
Rotax 582
N844KF
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
Matteson
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: RE: Landing and engine pictures
I haven't said anything regarding my engine failure on either of the
Jabiru lists, Matronics or Yahoo...yet. I will when I have something
to say, (wink, wink). Still waiting to hear back from Jabiru...they
have been informed of the incident.
Michel, I was right behind you on the flywheel bolt issue...my engine
had the dowels already in place, the existing bolts were tight, and
the engine lasted a good 300 hours (I'm guessing, since I'm not where
my records are) since I complied with that Service Bulletin. Boy,
that was a busy time on the ol' Jabiru site, eh?
My oil was seeping from right below the rear main oil seal. If you
recall, the timing gear provides the surface upon which the oil seal
rides. It's a rather strange design, unlike any I've seen in all the
engines I've dealt with over the years, but then we're in the
aviation world now, where lightness, compactness, and engineering
done to the Nth degree is commonplace. You have to look behind the
flywheel, Michel, from below, to see the area.
I could kick my ass, in hindsight, for not getting right after that
leak after I first saw it. Like I said before, a seeping seal is not
the reason one normally pulls the engine and goes after it. After
all, it's only "seeping", not pouring out, threatening a fire, etc.
But looking back on it, that's what I should have done. Actually, the
repair could have been done with the engine still in the
plane...barely, in my case. The rear cover is all that must be
pulled, and this requires taking the flywheel off. After that is off,
the timing gear cover can be removed, and the timing gears are then
exposed. Even taking the flywheel off and pulling the seal might have
revealed the crack in the timing gear, which in my case could
probably have been seen at that point. From the looks of the broken
pieces, this has been a faulty gear for some time.
My serial number is 2062, Michel, just 5 engines before they went to
wet lifters (hydraulics)....what number is yours? Did you already
have the dowels in your engine?
Guy, if this is getting too far away from "Kitfox" in nature, holler.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster
Jabiru 2200
Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink
Floyd..."Learning to Fly")
On Aug 7, 2008, at 7:15 AM, Michel Verheughe wrote:
> Gary and Lynn; one question: why am I on the Jabiru list we I have
> you guys, here on the Kitfox one? ... :-))
>
> Thanks a lot for both answers. I will check for oil stain as a pre-
> flight routine, Lynn, that's a good idea. I agree with you, Gary,
> the Jabiru is a fine engine but - like any engine - it can be
> subject to failure. If you remember my writing on the Jabiru list,
> I have always been the advocate to tolerance and stress that when
> we take an engine designed to be installed in a Jabiru aircraft,
> but install it in something else, we are entering the world of
> experimental aviation with all of its consequences. We are,
> actually, test pilots.
>
> I am also please to own one of the last solid lifters model. The
> question to know if a loose flywheel could be the cause of Lynn's
> failure is interesting. As you remember, I was one of the first to
> comply to the bulletin requesting a retorquing of them, which I did
> and illustrated here:
> http://home.online.no/~michel/Flywheel
>
> Now, Lynn, where exactly did you see your oil seeping from? I
> understand that the timing gear is behind (or rather, in front of,
> if you look forward) of the flywheel. But I am not sure where the
> oil leaks from.
>
> Cheers,
> Michel Verheughe
> Norway
> Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... grounded.
>
>
> <pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
>
> List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List</a>
> forums.matronics.com</a>
> www.matronics.com/contribution</a>
>
> </b></font></pre>
Message 11
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| Subject: | RE: Landing and engine pictures |
Just thought I would open my mouth on this (and probably regret it later LO
L) I have a Jabiru in my Avid Mk IV
and while it seems to run fine=2C it does not have the performance I expect
ed from it. It is faster than the 582 it
replaced=2C but does not climb as well. Maybe I don't have it set up right
prop wise=2C but at about $500 each for a
Tennasee prop=2C how much experimenting can you do. On the Kitfox 4 I'm bu
ilding=2C I picked up a used 912 Rotax
engine and have high hopes for it. At least with it I can put on a large g
round adjustable prop and set it where I
want it. I think the 60" to 64" wood prop you have to use on the Jabiru is
a big disadvantage. The Jabiru probably
weighs 20 lbs less installed than the 912 and that might be a factor on the
Kitfox 2 with the lower gross weight.
I've also read a lot of the posts on the Rotax matronics list as well as mo
st of them on the Jabiru sites. There are a
lot more Rotaxes out there than the Jabirus=2C but I think there are more p
osts of major problems on the Jab sites than
the Rotax ones. Sorry if I offended anyone=2C I didn't mean to. Just putt
ing into words what I've come to belive about
these engines. Granted=2C I have yet to fly a 912 Rotax. Jim Chuk Kitfox
4 building=2C Avid MK IV flying MN
Kitfox-List: RE: Landing and engine picturesTo: kitfox-list@matronics.com
I=2C for one=2C appreciate the discussion. Re-engining may be in the offing
for me and the Jab 2200 was/is on my short list of possibilities. Please c
ontinue.
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box
--- On Thu=2C 8/7/08=2C Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net> wrote:
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: RE: Landing
and engine picturesTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comDate: Thursday=2C August 7
att@jps.net>
I haven't said anything regarding my engine failure on either of the
Jabiru lists=2C Matronics or Yahoo...yet. I will when I have something
to say=2C (wink=2C wink). Still waiting to hear back from Jabiru...they
have been informed of the incident.
Michel=2C I was right behind you on the flywheel bolt issue...my engine
had the dowels already in place=2C the existing bolts were tight=2C and
the engine lasted a good 300 hours (I'm guessing=2C since I'm not where
my records are) since I complied with that Service Bulletin. Boy=2C
that was a busy time on the ol' Jabiru site=2C eh?
My oil was seeping from right below the rear main oil seal. If you
recall=2C the timing gear provides the surface upon which the oil seal
rides. It's a rather strange design=2C unlike any I've seen in all the
engines I've dealt with over the years=2C but then we're in the
aviation world now=2C where lightness=2C compactness=2C and engineering
done to the Nth degree is commonplace. You have to look behind the
flywheel=2C Michel=2C from below=2C to see the area.
I could kick my ass=2C in hindsight=2C for not getting right after that
leak after I first saw it. Like I said before=2C a seeping seal is not
the reason one normally pulls the engine and goes after it. After
all=2C it's only "seeping"=2C not pouring out=2C threatening a fire=2C
etc.
But looking back on it=2C that's what I should have done. Actually=2C the
repair could have been done with the engine still in the
plane...barely=2C in my case. The rear cover is all that must be
pulled=2C and this requires taking the flywheel off. After that is off=2C
the timing gear cover can be removed=2C and the timing gears are then
exposed. Even taking the flywheel off and pulling the seal might have
revealed the crack in the timing gear=2C which in my case could
probably have been seen at that point. From the looks of the broken
pieces=2C this has been a faulty gear for some time.
My serial number is 2062=2C Michel=2C just 5 engines before they went to
wet lifters (hydraulics)....what number is yours? Did you already
have the dowels in your engine?
Guy=2C if this is getting too far away from "Kitfox" in nature=2C holler.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster
Jabiru 2200
Status: "Condition grounded=2C but determined to try." (Pink
Floyd..."Learning to Fly")
On Aug 7=2C 2008=2C at 7:15 AM=2C Michel Verheughe wrote:
> Gary and Lynn=3B one question: why am I on the Jabiru list we I have
> you guys=2C here on the Kitfox one? ... :-))
>
> Thanks a lot for both answers. I will check for oil stain as a pre-
> flight routine=2C Lynn=2C that's a good idea. I agree with you=2C Gary=2C
> the Jabiru is a fine engine but - like any engine - it can be
> subject to failure. If you remember my writing on the Jabiru list=2C
> I have always been the advocate to tolerance and stress that when
> we take an engine designed to be installed in a Jabiru aircraft=2C
> but install it in something else=2C we are entering the world of
> experimental aviation with all of its consequences. We are=2C
> actually=2C test pilots.
>
> I am also please to own one of the last solid lifters model. The
> question to know if a loose flywheel could be the cause of Lynn's
> failure is interesting. As you remember=2C I was one of the first to
> comply to the bulletin requesting a retorquing of them=2C which I did
> and illustrated here:
> http://home.online.no/~michel/Flywheel
>
> Now=2C Lynn=2C where exactly did you see your oil seeping from? I
> understand that the timing gear is behind (or rather=2C in front of=2C
> if you look forward) of the flywheel. But I am not sure where the
> oil leaks from.
>
> Cheers=2C
> Michel Verheughe
> Norway
> Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... grounded.
>
>
> <pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000"
face="courier new=2Ccourier">
>
> List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List</a>
> forums.matronics.com</a>
> www.matronics.com/contribution</a>
>
> </b></font></pre>
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Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Landing and engine pictures |
Lynn sez:
>Guy, if this is getting too far away from "Kitfox" in nature, holler.
Discussions about Avid/Kitfox powerplants of general interest are
spot-on, Lynn. Carry on.
Mike G.
Kitfox List Administrator
Phoenix, AZ
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: RE: naca inlets |
Maybe also look at some Nascar applications...I've seen NACA ducts
used there, but it seems like it was always on an "ingoing" air
application.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster
Jabiru 2200
Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink
Floyd..."Learning to Fly")
On Aug 7, 2008, at 11:08 AM, Lowell Fitt wrote:
> <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
>
> I doubt it. There was an article on NACA vent design in one of the
> magazines a time back when I was working on the Lancair. It
> described the shape for optimum performance - sharp edges at the
> surface inlet junction. This got me thinking that there is more to
> the shape than the curvy outline. I think the shape is designed to
> draw air from a rapidly moving laminar flow airstream. As it
> crosses the edge, it rolls into the duct and actually compresses
> the air passing through the duct. I don't think you would find
> that same efficiency moving air from the cowling to the outside
> airflow.
>
> A solution might be suggested by looking at a lot of airplanes -
> professionally designed and see what they have done. I have never
> seen a backward flowing NACA duct on any airplane other than an
> "experimantal.
>
> Lowell
>
>
>> From: bob noffs [icubob@newnorth.net]
>> anyone had any experience with turning a naca vent ''backwards''
>> to ''pull air''
>> from the cowling? does it work?
>>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Landing and engine pictures |
Spot-on, you say old chap? Well, bully then, the next pint's on me!
p.s. I may not be so damn jolly if I don't hear from the J people
pretty soon. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster
Jabiru 2200
Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink
Floyd..."Learning to Fly")
do not archive
On Aug 7, 2008, at 12:15 PM, Michael Gibbs wrote:
> <MichaelGibbs@cox.net>
>
> Lynn sez:
>
>> Guy, if this is getting too far away from "Kitfox" in nature, holler.
>
> Discussions about Avid/Kitfox powerplants of general interest are
> spot-on, Lynn. Carry on.
>
> Mike G.
> Kitfox List Administrator
> Phoenix, AZ
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | need a matco disc brake cylinder |
Hi all=2C I have a leak on my brake cylinder on my Avid=2C when I would pu
sh hard on the brake I get a drop of fluid dripping on the tire. When I ch
ecked it=2C I found a small crack in the casting where the bleeder valve sc
rews in=2C probably got tightened to much. If anyone has a good one they d
on't need and want to sell it=2C please let me know. Kitfox and Avid both
used the same kind. thesupe@hotmail.com or 1-218-254-2404 Thanks=2C Jim
Chuk Avid=2CKitfox=2C MN
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Message 16
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| Subject: | RE: Landing and engine pictures |
> From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt@jps.net]
> Spot-on, you say old chap? Well, bully then, the next pint's on me!
By Jove! You do speak English, don't you? Good show, old fruit!
... okay, I'll shut up, leave the room and go and play with my new pacemaker! :-)
Michel
Do not archive
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</b></font></pre></body></html>
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| Subject: | RE: Landing and engine pictures |
> From: Jim_and_Lucy Chuk [thesupe@hotmail.com]
> Sorry if I offended anyone, I didn't mean to.
Ouch, that hurts, Jim! Aren't you ashamed to hit an old man with a pacemaker? :-)
Just kidding; I agree with you. The Jabiru with its 85 HP gives more cruise power
but not climb power than the 582. I don't think it has anything to do with
the propeller but simply the torque of an engine that turns twice as slow as a
Rotax.
I was very well aware of that when I bought my Jabiru. Although I know virtually
nothing about aircraft engines, my thinking was this: Yes, the Rotax (912 and
582) are two mighty engines with water cooling and gear box, thus very stable
and therefore a favourite in experimental aviation, the Jabiru was atractive
by its simplicity and when you don't know much about engines, less is more. I
also thought that if Continental and Lycoming were also direct drive air-cooled
engines, ... the technology was still good for aviation.
Lynn wrote:
> My serial number is 2062, Michel, just 5 engines before they went to
> wet lifters (hydraulics)....what number is yours? Did you already
> have the dowels in your engine?
My serial number is 1665, Lynn. An older engine but still from what is called the
third generation Jabiru although I don't have the dowels. Thanks for your advice
and I will look under the flywheel at each pre-flight. It's easy for my,
my opening under the cowling is very large and it gives a good view of the rear
bottom end of the engine. Looking there is already in my pre-flight because
it allows me to check the recovery bottle without removing the cowling.
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... grounded for now.
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Message 18
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The placement of mine might be in the wrong place right now. I looked at several
photos of Doug Kelly's Kit fox and put them where they did.
The other week someone pointed out that there was a outline on the cowl painted
over that was directly in line with the area where the front half of the engine
cowl had a attachment point and no exit for the engine air( hot air). On a
normal day below 80 degrees it is just fine but on the high air density days
the air coming in is warm that is till you get to 3K ft. I just free handed my
vents and molded them in place.
I spoke to John King and he said that he just opens the door 3/4 of a inch and
it is plenty of air. So maybe the next person will not go through putting them
in and just open the door a little (KISS).
--------
Lee Fritz in owings Mills Md. 2002 KitFox-IV Classic/912UL/Warp drive prop/100%
Complete (just adding the Extras now) /71 hours time on plane since Aug 07 "Have
your feet on the Pedals and keep reaching for the sky".
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197186#197186
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_8503_966.jpg
Message 19
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| Subject: | RE: Landing and engine pictures |
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 080806X01164&key=1
We don't often hear about it happening, but even a 912 can come apart.
Here's a recent NTSB report of a Kitfox IV emergency landing that,
fortunately, ended up with both the pilot and airplane relatively
intact.
Anybody know this guy?
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 388+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but
progress."
- Joseph Joubert
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Landing and engine pictures |
Lynn
If you would like to send the broken gear to my office in Barrie, Ontario
I can have our metallurgist take a look at it. We can do carbon analysis
and have metallurgical inspection as my people there are qualified in
fatigue analysis for our drilling products.
Might show something!
the only other thing that the jab people here could come up with was some
sort of contaminant in the oil etc that jammed between the teeth. After
reading your posts I find that highly unlikely!
How were the rest of your pistons and valves?
Gary
Gary Algate
SMC, Exploration
Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees.
Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by
persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If
you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by
telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender
does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of
this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
08/08/2008 01:01 AM
Please respond to
kitfox-list@matronics.com
To
kitfox-list@matronics.com
cc
Subject
Re: Kitfox-List: RE: Landing and engine pictures
Thanks for checking into it, Gary.
I did the service bulletin at the time it was issued, and I changed
all the bolts, the originals of which were already at the then-
current torque specs, so no "loose flywheel" at that time. No loose
flywheel at this time either, and no fretting was seen when I took it
off this time. My engine (#2062) had the three dowels already fitted.
Unless they'd like to see my broken gear, and give me some new parts
(yeah, right!), I guess I'l just buy new parts and get back to flying.
Lynn
On Aug 6, 2008, at 9:19 PM, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote:
>
> Lynn
>
> The head engine builder (Don) at Jabiru just called me and we ran
> thru your timing gear failure.
>
> Jabiru Australia have one (1) reported Crankshaft Timing gear
> failure and this happened three years ago at Innisfil (S.Australia)
> on a Jab2200 powered lightwing.
>
> The gear was inspected at Jabiru and heat treat and mfg were all
> within spec. There were no signs of contamination between the gears
> and the final consensus was that the operator may have been
> experiencing pre-ignition or was running with a loose flywheel
> which could have over-stressed the gear.
>
> The gear only runs the camshaft at a 2:1 ratio and is very lightly
> loaded so with over 1500 units in operation and only one recorded
> failure that could not be attributed to component overstress no
> service directive was issued.
>
> They have released directives to ensure all fly-wheel bolts are
> correctly torqued.
>
> Sorry I couldn't get you a more definitive answer but it appears
> that this might have been a 1 off (or 2 - off)
>
> best regards
>
> Gary
>
> Gary Algate
> Kitfox Classic 4 2200A
> Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
>
>
> This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the
> addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of
> this message by persons or entities other than the intended
> recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error,
> kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the
> message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for
> any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may
> arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. _-
> www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List _-
> www.matronics.com/contribution _-
> ===========================================================
Message 21
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| Subject: | RE: Landing and engine pictures |
Jim
You are dead right about climb performance when you compare a Jab to a 582
or 912.
Both of the Rotax engines are geared and therefore run large diameter
props (72") and with props diameter normally dictates climb rate.
I went from a 582 Blue head to a very early model Jabiru and the climb
rate that I saw was very similar on both engines (500 - 650ft/min at
gross) however the Jab cruised faster, quieter, vibrated less and used far
less fuel. 13 Ltr/Hr at cruise vs 19 Ltr/hr on the 582.
When I fitted the new 2200 I noticed it was significantly more powerful
and I now see consistent climb rates of over 1000ft/min which is far
better than I saw with the 582
As you point out the Rotax 912 and 912S with the large diameter props have
excellent climb performance - (Normally better than the Jab2200).
If I were on floats I would certainly go for the 912 over the Jab2200.
For simplicity the Jab is air cooled, direct drive, low revving, fuel
efficient, lightweight, very pretty and sounds like a real airplane
engine.
The 912 is also an excellent choice although slightly more complicated
however it is still the engine of choice in N.America and most of Europe.
There are over 2,000 jab engines in service and the company is growing
exponentially - with a 2,000 hr TBO
If you go to the Rotax service bulletin web site I think you will find
that Rotax also have a significant number of updates posted but being
engines in experimental aircrafts I think this is to be expected - both
companies are also continually improving and upgrading their products
based on service history so once again changes are inevitable.
I think both engines are great and please take this with a grain of salt
as it is only my opinion!
Gary
Gary Algate
Classic 4 Jab2200
Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees.
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persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If
you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by
telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender
does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of
this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
Jim_and_Lucy Chuk <thesupe@hotmail.com>
Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
08/08/2008 01:17 AM
Please respond to
kitfox-list@matronics.com
To
<kitfox-list@matronics.com>
cc
Subject
RE: Kitfox-List: RE: Landing and engine pictures
Just thought I would open my mouth on this (and probably regret it later
LOL) I have a Jabiru in my Avid Mk IV
and while it seems to run fine, it does not have the performance I
expected from it. It is faster than the 582 it
replaced, but does not climb as well. Maybe I don't have it set up right
prop wise, but at about $500 each for a
Tennasee prop, how much experimenting can you do. On the Kitfox 4 I'm
building, I picked up a used 912 Rotax
engine and have high hopes for it. At least with it I can put on a large
ground adjustable prop and set it where I
want it. I think the 60" to 64" wood prop you have to use on the Jabiru
is a big disadvantage. The Jabiru probably
weighs 20 lbs less installed than the 912 and that might be a factor on
the Kitfox 2 with the lower gross weight.
I've also read a lot of the posts on the Rotax matronics list as well as
most of them on the Jabiru sites. There are a
lot more Rotaxes out there than the Jabirus, but I think there are more
posts of major problems on the Jab sites than
the Rotax ones. Sorry if I offended anyone, I didn't mean to. Just
putting into words what I've come to belive about
these engines. Granted, I have yet to fly a 912 Rotax. Jim Chuk Kitfox 4
building, Avid MK IV flying MN
From: msm_9949@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: RE: Landing and engine pictures
I, for one, appreciate the discussion. Re-engining may be in the offing
for me and the Jab 2200 was/is on my short list of possibilities. Please
continue.
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box
--- On Thu, 8/7/08, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net> wrote:
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: RE: Landing and engine pictures
I haven't said anything regarding my engine failure on either of the
Jabiru lists, Matronics or Yahoo...yet. I will when I have something
to say, (wink, wink). Still waiting to hear back from Jabiru...they
have been informed of the incident.
Michel, I was right behind you on the flywheel bolt issue...my engine
had the dowels already in place, the existing bolts were tight, and
the engine lasted a good 300 hours (I'm guessing, since I'm not where
my records are) since I complied with that Service Bulletin. Boy,
that was a busy time on the ol' Jabiru site, eh?
My oil was seeping from right below the rear main oil seal. If you
recall, the timing gear provides the surface upon which the oil seal
rides. It's a rather strange design, unlike any I've seen in all the
engines I've dealt with over the years, but then we're in the
aviation world now, where lightness, compactness, and engineering
done to the Nth degree is commonplace. You have to look behind the
flywheel, Michel, from below, to see the area.
I could kick my ass, in hindsight, for not getting right after that
leak after I first saw it. Like I said before, a seeping seal is not
the reason one normally pulls the engine and goes after it. After
all, it's only "seeping", not pouring out, threatening a fire,
etc.
But looking back on it, that's what I should have done. Actually, the
repair could have been done with the engine still in the
plane...barely, in my case. The rear cover is all that must be
pulled, and this requires taking the flywheel off. After that is off,
the timing gear cover can be removed, and the timing gears are then
exposed. Even taking the flywheel off and pulling the seal might have
revealed the crack in the timing gear, which in my case could
probably have been seen at that point. From the looks of the broken
pieces, this has been a faulty gear for some time.
My serial number is 2062, Michel, just 5 engines before they went to
wet lifters (hydraulics)....what number is yours? Did you already
have the dowels in your engine?
Guy, if this is getting too far away from "Kitfox" in nature, holler.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster
Jabiru 2200
Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink
Floyd..."Learning to Fly")
On Aug 7, 2008, at 7:15 AM, Michel Verheughe wrote:
> Gary and Lynn; one question: why am I on the Jabiru list we I have
> you guys, here on the Kitfox one? ... :-))
>
> Thanks a lot for both answers. I will check for oil stain as a pre-
> flight routine, Lynn, that's a good idea. I agree with you, Gary,
> the Jabiru is a fine engine but - like any engine - it can be
> subject to failure. If you remember my writing on the Jabiru list,
> I have always been the advocate to tolerance and stress that when
> we take an engine designed to be installed in a Jabiru aircraft,
> but install it in something else, we are entering the world of
> experimental aviation with all of its consequences. We are,
> actually, test pilots.
>
> I am also please to own one of the last solid lifters model. The
> question to know if a loose flywheel could be the cause of Lynn's
> failure is interesting. As you remember, I was one of the first to
> comply to the bulletin requesting a retorquing of them, which I did
> and illustrated here:
> http://home.online.no/~michel/Flywheel
>
> Now, Lynn, where exactly did you see your oil seeping from? I
> understand that the timing gear is behind (or rather, in front of,
> if you look forward) of the flywheel. But I am not sure where the
> oil leaks from.
>
> Cheers,
> Michel Verheughe
> Norway
> Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... grounded.
>
>
> <pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000"
face="courier new,courier">
>
> List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List</a>
> forums.matronics.com</a>
> www.matronics.com/contribution</a>
>
> </b></font></pre>
3D============================================
tfox-List
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Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Turtle Deck Hinge |
Hi Marco;
The common advice seems to be that ithe hinge is not needed unless you want to
stow it in a small area. I'll be trailering C-FJKP a little bit, but it will
be with my pickup truck so space is not an issue.
I've already fabricated the two sides so will go with them on a watertight centre
joint. A full width window turtle-deck does interest me though. Given that
it took less than 4 hours to assemble the factory design, I may modify the turtledeck
once I've finished and test flown.
Cheers
Ken
Kitfox II, No. 483
Rotax 582 C Box
98 % finished and 98% to go (yes, the list of little things to do just keeps growing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197233#197233
Message 23
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| Subject: | RE: My First Ground Loop |
One thing I've noticed on this list over the past couple of years is the
number of occurrences of tail wheels breaking. I'm wondering if those
flying with the tail wheel shouldn't have their springs magnafluxed or eddy
current tested every year or so. Multiple leaves also seem to be a good
idea.
Noel
Still waiting on parts for my 912 install.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michel
Verheughe
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 10:06 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: RE: My First Ground Loop
> From: rawheels [rawheels@yahoo.com]
> CFI thinks the bolt on the tail wheel broke and that is what caused it to
shoot left
Ryan, the only time I did a ground loop was when I broke my tailwheel
spring. I thought first that the ground loop broke the spring but it was the
opposite: the lost of tail control was the reason I went in the ground loop.
I hope you can fix your tailwheel and flaperon and are soon back in the air.
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... grounded.
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronics.c
om/Navigator?Kitfox-List</a>
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com</a>
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contri
bution</a>
</b></font></pre>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Turtle Deck Hinge |
I think some guys have made a one piece turtle deck out of a piece of .060
Lexan. You can bend it in a brake and it will stay bent. I've thought abo
ut doing that myself=2C but haven't done it yet. Jim Chuk Kitfox 4 buildi
ng=2C Avid MK IV and (tonight) Avid B flying=2C Mn> Subject: Kitfox-List:
Re: Turtle Deck Hinge> From: kjpotter@sympatico.ca> Date: Thu=2C 7 Aug 200
8 17:25:39 -0700> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com> > --> Kitfox-List message
posted by: "Ken Potter" <kjpotter@sympatico.ca>> > Hi Marco=3B> > The commo
n advice seems to be that ithe hinge is not needed unless you want to stow
it in a small area. I'll be trailering C-FJKP a little bit=2C but it will b
e with my pickup truck so space is not an issue. > > I've already fabricate
d the two sides so will go with them on a watertight centre joint. A full w
idth window turtle-deck does interest me though. Given that it took less th
an 4 hours to assemble the factory design=2C I may modify the turtledeck on
ce I've finished and test flown.> > Cheers> > Ken> Kitfox II=2C No. 483> Ro
tax 582 C Box> 98 % finished and 98% to go (yes=2C the list of little thing
s to do just keeps growing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)> > > > > Read this topic online
here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197233#197233> > >
========> > >
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