---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 08/13/08: 49 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:56 AM - Re: RES: 91 octane, time to be heard! (steve shinabery) 2. 02:27 AM - Re: Hydraulic brakes (dave) 3. 03:16 AM - Re: Spray booth?? (Dave) 4. 03:30 AM - Re: Spray booth?? (Larry Huntley) 5. 03:56 AM - Re: Re: Aircraft ID plate (Bob Brennan) 6. 04:34 AM - Re: Timing gear (Michel Verheughe) 7. 04:54 AM - Re: Tailwheel Spring (Catz631@aol.com) 8. 05:13 AM - Re: KitFox Fuel Starvation (Catz631@AOL.COM) 9. 05:42 AM - Re: Hydraulic brakes (Tom Jones) 10. 05:46 AM - Re: certification question (DanM) 11. 06:07 AM - Re: Re: Timing gear (Lynn Matteson) 12. 06:13 AM - Re: Re: Timing gear (Lynn Matteson) 13. 06:29 AM - Re: Re: certification question (Bob Brennan) 14. 06:39 AM - Re: Re: Timing gear (Lynn Matteson) 15. 06:56 AM - Re: Tailwheel Spring (rawheels) 16. 07:08 AM - Re: Timing gear (dave) 17. 07:30 AM - Re: Part of the Kitfox Line for sale (dave) 18. 08:48 AM - Light Sport certification (Bob Brennan) 19. 08:48 AM - Re: KitFox Fuel Starvation (n85ae) 20. 09:01 AM - Re: Light Sport certification (Kyle) 21. 09:01 AM - Re: Light Sport certification (dave) 22. 09:10 AM - Re: Re: Light Sport certification (Bob Brennan) 23. 09:53 AM - Re: Re: Light Sport certification (Michael Gibbs) 24. 10:10 AM - Re: Re: Light Sport certification (kerrjohna@comcast.net) 25. 10:15 AM - Re: Re: Light Sport certification (Bob Brennan) 26. 10:46 AM - Re: KitFox Fuel Starvation (FlyboyTR) 27. 11:23 AM - Re: Re: Light Sport certification (Lynn Matteson) 28. 11:26 AM - Re: Light Sport certification (Marco Menezes) 29. 12:06 PM - Re: KitFox Fuel Starvation (JetPilot) 30. 12:58 PM - Re: Re: Light Sport certification (Bob Brennan) 31. 01:27 PM - Re: Re: Light Sport certification (paul wilson) 32. 01:38 PM - Re: Light Sport certification (Keith C.) 33. 01:44 PM - Re: Re: Light Sport certification (Michael Gibbs) 34. 01:51 PM - Re: Light Sport certification (Michael Gibbs) 35. 02:02 PM - Re: certification question (dcsfoto) 36. 02:13 PM - Re: Light Sport certification (Bob Brennan) 37. 02:17 PM - Re: Re: certification question (Bob Brennan) 38. 02:26 PM - Re: Re: Light Sport certification (Bob Brennan) 39. 02:46 PM - Re: Light Sport certification (Michael Gibbs) 40. 02:46 PM - Re: Re: Light Sport certification (Michael Gibbs) 41. 03:08 PM - Re: Light Sport certification (Bob Brennan) 42. 04:46 PM - Re: RC Engines (gary.algate@sandvik.com) 43. 06:06 PM - Re: Re: Aircraft ID plate (Noel Loveys) 44. 06:33 PM - Re: certification question (Tom Jones) 45. 06:42 PM - Re: 91 octane, time to be heard! (Noel Loveys) 46. 07:51 PM - Re: Part of the Kitfox Line for sale (Tom Jones) 47. 08:32 PM - Re: Part of the Kitfox Line for sale (JetPilot) 48. 10:46 PM - Polytone reducer (gary.algate@sandvik.com) 49. 11:35 PM - Re: Timing gear (Michel Verheughe) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:56:13 AM PST US From: steve shinabery Subject: Re: RES: Kitfox-List: 91 octane, time to be heard! Francisco Espuny wrote: > > Hi, Noel, > > In fact, 100% of our ethanol is obtained from fermentation of sugar cane. > > We have so much sugar cane fields that we can produce all sugar and > ethanol we need in local market and there's also a large excess that's > exported. The production is being increased day by day and, as we have > a lot of unused land to be explored, this can be expanded many times > and does not compete with food production. > > More than 80% new cars sold here are for gas/ethanol in any percent of > each (that's what the local industry, GM, Ford, Fiat, Honda, VW, > Peugeot, Renault, Nissan... call "flex"). You buy a car and anytime > you go to the station you may choose among regular, premium or > ethanol, no matter what you still have inside the tank and with no > need to do anything in the car, and you'll feel always the same > performance. We're experienced in the uses of ethanol, so there are > cars, tractors, and many oyher machines explosion-engine powereds > fueled with alchool, although all the large trucks use diesel that's > been progressively changed to biodiesel, this one made from soy bean > that may increase the food prices. But we're learning to explore > mamona to produce biodiesel, and it's poisonous, so it will not > compete, but open business opportunities and grow employment in the > fields. We're also beginning the production of plastic sinthesized > from sugar cane alchool. Oil will finish someday...land, not. > > There are solid parameters and very restrictive laws concerning fuels > composition, and we can trust Petrobras, Shell, Texaco, Esso and > other, but NEVER the truck driver and the gas-station owner. But fuels > inside airports are absolutelly trusty, even in the little fields. > > We're proud 'cause we started the ethanol program as a poor country, > thirty years ago, and now we are not dancing the music played by OPEC. > We also discovered very large oil fields that we're exploring under > the sea, but we prefer to expand the renewable, cheaper and less > polutter biofuels, while letting the oil to the petrochemicals. I know > that in the oil destilation process there's so much gasoline left, but > we are exporting it too. We extract more oil than we need and we're > not exploring 1% of our reserves. Brazil has about 180 million people > and more than 30 million active cars and 50 million total active vehicles. > > Brazil is not a little, nor a poor country nowadays, but we have a > heavy social contrast : too many poor people and too few very rich > people in a natural resources-rich country. But this is changing with > time and fuel production will increase life quality of the forgotten > people living in distant areas. We just have to dominate the > government hunger; taxes are stratosferic here. > > Some planes are runing on 100% ethanol carrying a particular > technology, mainly the agriculture sprayers. *They're not factory > ready*, but converted. Very safe and certified, the sprayers fly a > lot, everyday. Believe-me: it's harder to certify a plane here than in > the USA, because there's too much burocracy. Almost 100% general > aviation planes here are Cessnas, Beechs and Pipers made in USA, and > many Pipers built here under license by the local EMBRAER (began 1972, > stoped in 1996, i think), who is making military, executive and > airline jets projected here and well sold worldwide > (Tucano,AMX,Legacy,Phenom, Brasilia, EMB 750, EMB 950,Lineage, etc). > There are some Pipers and EMBRAER Pipers certified for ethanol > (arrows,senecas), also Cessnas and Beechs. EMBRAER could research on > ethanol use in aircrafts, but it moved to turbines and they are > imported, so.... > > I think those planes can only fly over our country, because they > cannot be fuelled with AVGAS after being converted to ethanol, and > there must not be alchool inside the pumps on the fields out there. > They're not "flex". > > And I know that some certified planes flying here cannot enter USA > airspace, but all experimentals homebuilt here can!!! I don't > understand FAA and ANAC (our FAA). It's nonsense . > > I think that the best policy while flying is to be old-line untill > some tech is flown safely at least some thousand hours, then we adopt > it. That's what happened to our cars, from carburators to fuel > injection. And I may confess that a voice hidden behind my ear tells > me not to fly an alchool powered plane yet. > > Let's enjoy the best hi-oct gas while we can, and wait for good > surprises in the future. > > Espuny > > Still paying about US$ 9.00 an AVGAS gallon ! Taxes... > > *De:* owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] *Em nome de *Noel Loveys > *Enviada em:* tera-feira, 12 de agosto de 2008 22:53 > *Para:* kitfox-list@matronics.com > *Assunto:* RE: Kitfox-List: 91 octane, time to be heard! > > Espuny: > > As most planes this far north are not completely modified for the use > of ethanol.... Because we have no way of knowing the state of the > hydration of the ethanol in our fuel when we get it... because there > is no standardization of auto fuel, even without ethanol, I cant in > good conscience use or advise anyone to use it in their plane. > > I expect you people are in a slightly different situation than we are > in that you are using excess sugar cane to make the ethanol... In the > North food producing fields are being switched over to ethanol every > day this is resulting in huge increases in the cost of most if not all > meats and produce. Dont even think of getting any cascades hops to > flavour you next brew of beer! > > Curiosity makes me ask if the flight authority for the planes flying > on ethanol extends to Canada and the USA, assuming you had > sufficiently large tanks or do you have to use 100LL in those countries? > > Noel > > *From:* owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of > *Francisco Espuny > *Sent:* Sunday, August 10, 2008 1:53 PM > *To:* kitfox-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* RES: Kitfox-List: 91 octane, time to be heard! > > Hi, Noel. > > In fact ethanol itself is as corrosive as water. And water is the main > problem with ethanol cause it absorbs it from the air moisture. > > Ethanol is not delivered in 100%. It's allways hidrated. And it reacts > sometimes with gasoline, resulting in an aldheyd. > > *You're right* when you tell us to avoid its use on a system built for > gas. > > But, as I have said before, we have, in my country, lots and lots of > certified planes ( Cherokees, Skylanes, Bonanzas...) running on just > hidrated ethanol, and flying fine and safely for many years. It's > necessary to say that the hole project is intended to the use of > alchool, not only the engine. > > I strongly recommend that you all DO NOT use ethanol added fuel in > your birds, unless all parts, including the engine , are certified for > this particular use. > > But we're living the third large oil market shock in history, and > history teaches us that something has to be done 'cause fossil fuels > will end someday. > > I'm sure our sons or grandsons will be flying on some bio-fuel, and > the technology, in their days, will be as fine for the bios as they > are for the oil derivates today. > > And, while waiting, let's fly just on factory parts recommend fuel and > contamination limits. > > I own a Continental engine, and cannot even think about any ethanol. > > As I'm looking for an experimental plane and Rotax or Jabiru will be > the engine choice, I'm as interested as you all in this subject. So I > argued Rotax factory on this subject and I'm waiting for the answer. > > And that's why I'm in this list. To share experiences. > > I've been fueling my cars with ethanol or ethanol added gas for > decades. Believe-me, it's not for our planes the way they are powered > and equiped. > > Espuny > > paying about US$ 9.00 in local currency for an AVGAS gallon !!! > > do not archive > > *De:* owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] *Em nome de *Noel Loveys > *Enviada em:* domingo, 10 de agosto de 2008 11:45 > *Para:* kitfox-list@matronics.com > *Assunto:* RE: Kitfox-List: 91 octane, time to be heard! > > Run the regular unleaded unboxed gasoline... if you notice the engine > pinging then consider switching to a higher octane fuel. _Generally > speaking_ the line for high octane requirement is with a compression > ratio of somewhere around 11:1. > > Ive been called on my dislike of ethanol as fuel in the past and I do > tend to use strong language in my opinions on the subject. Fact is no > one has been able to show me that ethanol is anywhere near as cost > effective as oil. No one has commented either way on the poisonous, > ozone layer eating gasses given off when organic oils, including > ethanol and bio diesel, are burned. One guy, a farmer I think or the > holder of a mortgage on a farm, told me they are now using ethanol to > fuel diesel tractors.. Now I wonder how many miles they get to the > injection pump. There is no viscosity to ethanol so what lubricates > the pumps??? > > Ethanol is pretty corrosive stuff and makes a pretty good cleaner so > Im not against using small quantities of it, occasionally, _on the > ground_, to clean out combustion chambers.... but IMHO that alcohol > has no place in the air except in business class. > > As for seeing ethanol in your fuel in Alaska; I doubt you ever will > see it except by some accident. As I said the stuff is corrosive and > no one who owns a tanker ship really wants the crap in their hold with > the possibility of eating the ship out from under them. Of course they > could build a distillery in Alaska and ship raw corn or sugar there to > make the ethanol on site. What do you figure the chances of that are?? > Another point is you guys store your gas for months at a time... in > above ground storage facilities...I wonder what ethanol can possibly > do to those facilities... Hmmm > > Noel > > *From:* owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Larry > Huntley > *Sent:* Saturday, August 09, 2008 6:25 PM > *To:* kitfox-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: Kitfox-List: 91 octane, time to be heard! > > If it is a stock Soob, it ran just fine on regular 87 in the car and > should in the plane. Now if you raise the compression, that makes the > difference between using reg or 92-92,whatever. Correct me if I am > wrong folks. Been there before. Larry > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* lkc@juno.com > > *To:* kitfox-list@matronics.com > > *Sent:* Saturday, August 09, 2008 3:25 PM > > *Subject:* Re: Kitfox-List: 91 octane, time to be heard! > > My Soob is a stock NSI EA81 conversion. > > ____________________________________________________________ > Click here to find Medical Transcription Training programs. > > > * * > > * * > > *href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com* > > *href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c* > > *Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com * > > *1:22 PM* > > *Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com * > > * * > > * * > > * * > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List* > > * * > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > * * > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > * * > > * * > > * * > * * > * * > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List* > * * > *http://forums.matronics.com* > * * > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > * * > * * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra > . > Atualizado em 10/08/2008 > > * * > * * > * * > * * > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > * * > * * > * * > ** > ** > ** > ** > ** > ** > ** > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > * * > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra > . > Atualizado em 12/08/2008 > > * > > > * > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Good Story...good work on fuel...Steve Shinabery N554KF Kf2 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:27:08 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Hydraulic brakes From: "dave" > Where do I start? I am assuming I should first add some fluid, but where and > how? I know nothing of the braking system but it appears to be 2 separate > very simple systems with fluid in a container activated by the toe pedals - > then pressure fed via tube to the disc brake callipers on the wheels(?) > > Thanks in advance for any insight, > > Bob Brennan > Bob, put oil can home on caliper bleed screw - open bleeder and pump untill the air is done coming out. Type of oil -- There is only one oil that you can use http://www.cfisher.com/aeroshell.html it is MIL SPEC oil . DO NOT USE AUTOMOTIVE BRAKE FLUID !!!!! Hope this helps. Dave -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada Flying Videos and Kitfox Info http://www.cfisher.com/ Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198333#198333 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:16:28 AM PST US From: "Dave" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Spray booth?? I have the Poly, Hipec and Stewarts manuals. Stewarts is the only one where high humidity is not an issue. I've really become a huge fan, easier to work with and no fumes. There's a manual online is anyone is interested in reading up on it. http://www.stewartsystems.aero/support.aspx ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim_and_Lucy Chuk To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 1:04 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Spray booth?? I read the same thing in the Polyfiber manual. Jim Chuk Kfox, Avids, Mn ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:30:08 AM PST US From: "Larry Huntley" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Spray booth?? Depends on the type of finish you are using. Dope will"blush" and look terrible if sprayed on a humid day. Stewart's is a water borne finish and doesn't mind a bit of extra water in the air. Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: Cudnohufsky's To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 9:34 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Spray booth?? Guys, I read somewhere not to wet the floor, I always did it when I was painting cars but they say not to do it for the Polytone because it raises the humidity in the booth and causes the finish to have a milky or dull finish. Yes, I read this after I painted my fuselage and had a slightly dull finish that was corrected by latter buffing the finish. Lloyd Do not archive From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jeff puls Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 9:09 PM To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Spray booth?? I built a booth out of PVC pipe that was easy to take apart and put back together. I covered it in plastic and placed a fan on one end with a furnace filter. On the other end I cut out "Exhaust Ports." I ran the fan on the lowest speed possible and wet the floor. It worked great! Of course after 12 years I still have a big "Forest Green" square on my garage floor. Jeff Classic IV KTZR ----- Original Message ----- From: Zimmermans To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 7:57 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Spray booth?? I have tried several booths and the one I like best is just buy rolls of plastic at your home supply store and duct tape them to the ceiling and let them hang to the floor. This protects all the cabinets and tool in the garage. I have an exhaust fan at one end of the garage and adjust the door at the other end for air flow. Simple & cheap. The biggest advantage is you have a big booth. Jim Series 5 covered and rebuilding an 0-200. Lake Elmo MN. ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 6:26 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Spray booth?? I've been spraying the fill/uv coats (ekofill in my case, Stewarts, lovely stuff NO fumes) and I'm thinking a spray booth would help me keep the other items in the garage clean. The overspray even with HVLP gets all over. Has anyone got pictures, drawings, recommendations for a temporary, inexpensive and ultimately disposable spray booth? Dave G. Do not archive href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.comhref="h ttp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/cChecked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 8/11/2008 5:50 AM href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.comhref="h ttp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution Checked by AVG. 8/11/2008 5:50 AM Checked by AVG. 8/11/2008 5:50 AM Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 8/12/2008 7:19 AM Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 59 PM ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:56:32 AM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Aircraft ID plate Well that's all the endorsement I need... internal it is! Thanks Lowell &Guy for the pointers. -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt Sent: 12 August 2008 11:14 pm Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Aircraft ID plate When I destroyed our Model IV in the emergency landing, one of the first questions I had while waiting to be transorted to the ER was where is your ELT. It had triggered and the signal was loud and clear with it's internal antenna. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Brennan" Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 5:50 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Aircraft ID plate > Good to see lots of you using the same cheap model. And I found it without > even posting a request! > > I see you have the antenna mounted internally. I considered that but what > about the metallic UV-resistant coating that goes on before the color coat > of paint? I would think that would be like broadcasting inside a Faraday > Cage ie not a "good thing" > > _____ > > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave > Sent: 12 August 2008 7:46 pm > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Aircraft ID plate > > > If an ELT goes off in the woods and nobody (Sarsat) is listening, does it > make a noise?? > > Anyway, here's pics of my install, I'll have to change to 406 I guess. > > do not archive > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jim_and_Lucy Chuk > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 5:05 PM > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Aircraft ID plate > > > Hi Bob, here is how I mounted my ELT in my Avid MK IV. That is the > tubeing > behind the seat, under the turtle deck. Kitfox 2 tubing might be > different, > my Kitfox 4 project is, but the ELT could be put in the same place on it > if > need be in a similar fashion. Jim Chuk Kitfox 4 building, Avids flying > MN > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:34:43 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Kitfox-List: RE: Timing gear > From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt@jps.net] > When this is all said and done, I doubt you'll be reading a lot of my > posts encouraging folks to buy any particular engine...I love the > little s**t, but love can carry you only so far. I understand you perfectly, Lynn. I must say that your engine failure and John Miller's failure - two airmen I respect highly - put a shade on my opinion of the Jabiru. But ... do we hear of those who are happily flying? I need some statistics to make my mind. Yesterday I did the mistake to read the side effects of the drugs I take now after my heart attack. That can really scare the hell out of an innocent man! There isn't an ailment that is not on the list of possible side effects! Did you know that a side effect of beta-blockers is ... heart attack? What the ****! I take those to avoid a new heart attack and ... they can provoke it! Sometimes in life it is better to stop reading! Cheers, Michel Verheughe Norway Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... grounded Do not archive
________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:54:00 AM PST US From: Catz631@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Tailwheel Spring Ryan, I was having difficulty steering my 4 on the grass with my fat tires so I took about a 3/16 inch piece of steel cut and bent it kind of in the shape of an inverted W without the center in the W if that makes sense. It runs straight across . I drilled 2 holes and bolted it to the exsisting holes in the rudder tabs. Then I drilled holes at the ends of the ears and attached my rudder cables there. This adds reenforcement to the rudder tabs and gives me more mechanical advantage to turn. I have seen this on old Pipers where the rudder actuating bars are bent down. Dick Maddux Fox 4 Pensacola, Fl **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 ) ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:13:01 AM PST US From: Catz631@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: KitFox Fuel Starvation Beemer, Thanks for the input ! I will keep plugging away on this engine. I took a break yesterday and went to town and bought a newer truck and a HD tv. I have been wanting to do that for a long time and sometimes getting away helps. Dick Maddux Fox 4-1200 Pensacola,Fl **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 ) ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:42:32 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Hydraulic brakes From: "Tom Jones" > The right brake depresses slightly > and then locks up the wheel, the left depresses all the way with no effect. > > Where do I start? Make sure absolutely all the air is out of the system. I left about 1/4 to 1/2 inch of air in the line to one master cylinder. That line looped down from the entrance port on the master cylinder then back up to the reservoir. I tried and tried but couldn't get that bubble out of the low spot in the line. The brakes worked fine for about 30 hours of flight time. Then on pre flight one day that brake peddle went all the way down. I took the master cylinder apart and it tested good on the bench. Back on the plane it still went down. That little bubble was still in the line so I turned the entrance fitting up so the bubble worked its way up to the reservoir and the brakes worked again. -------- Tom Jones Classic IV 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp Ellensburg, WA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198353#198353 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:46:35 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: certification question From: "DanM" The FAA guy told me the the light sport is only for heavy ultra lights that want to become legal. And you have to obtained your n number by Jan 08. I think he's wrong, but I don't want to offend him before my inspection. John Mc Bean says better off to stay experimental AB. I think I'll take his advice. -------- Dan Mc Intyre Kitfox Model IV, Jab 2200 N443DM Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198355#198355 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:07:57 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: RE: Timing gear Man, you WERE into the big buck engines! I had a few of the O.S. 4's....a 70, a 52, a 91, but my favorite engine is the YS 120 AC, that is in my P-40. Before I got the Kitfox bug, I was working on a Stinson Reliant, and debated putting the O.S. 4-cylinder engine in it...then I got sidetracked by the Kifox.... Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster Jabiru 2200 Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink Floyd..."Learning to Fly") do not archive On Aug 12, 2008, at 7:31 PM, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote: > > Lynn - interesting what you said about Model airplanes - that's how > I got started in this hobby. Like you I also went from 2 stroke to > 4 stroke engines the last few planes I built were 1/3 scale and I > has a Seidel 9 cylinder / Seidel 7 Cylinder a Pegasus 4 cylinder > and a couple of 120's. That little lot would more than pay for a > brand new Jab 2200 or a 912! > > Sweet sound though and bloody reliable > > Gary > Gary Algate > Classic 4 Jab2200 > Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655 > > > This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the > addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of > this message by persons or entities other than the intended > recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, > kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the > message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for > any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may > arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. > > > Lynn Matteson > Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > 13/08/2008 06:47 AM > Please respond to > kitfox-list@matronics.com > > To > kitfox-list@matronics.com > cc > Subject > Re: Kitfox-List: RE: Timing gear > > > > 2-stroke? I'll pass, Pat...thanks. My ears like the semi-low steady > drone of a 4-stroke at low rpm, sucking minimal fuel. Climb is not > that important to me, as I like to get away from the pattern and go > places. And when this airplane bug crawled up my backside, it carried > a sign saying "Do something different...don't follow the crowd", so > I'm stickin' to that anthem, for better or worse....besides, don't > the mighty 582's also fail from time to time? Even when I was flying > model airplanes, I went for a 4-stroke as soon as I could find > one...I like the sound, for whatever that's worth...and it's worth a > lot to me. Just for what it's worth, I never got on the Chevvie V8 > bandwagon either, choosing to beat them with my Oldsmobile, and later > Chrysler Hemi engines (yeah I know, I climbed on THAT bandwagon) : ) > > Lynn Matteson > Kitfox IV Speedster > Jabiru 2200 > Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink > Floyd..."Learning to Fly") > do not archive > > > On Aug 12, 2008, at 4:36 PM, patrick reilly wrote: > > > Lynn, Just get a 582 with less moving parts to worry about that out > > climbs that 912 with 15 less HP and costs 1/2 as much. > > Do not archive > > Pat Reilly > > Mod 3 582 Rebuild > > Rockford, IL > > > > > Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 20:11:42 +0200 > > > From: michel@online.no > > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > Subject: Kitfox-List: RE: Timing gear > > > > > > > From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt@jps.net] > > > > I gotta say that Jabiru can point to every drop of flys**t that > > lands > > > > on the engine and claim that that's what caused the problem! > > > > > > Lynn, they can't do anything else but that. If they admit that > > the engine has a weak point, they risk a liability suit from each > > and every owner and it would mean bankrupcy and closing of the > > plant. On the other hand, when they know that there is a weakness > > with the engine, they have to publish a service bulletin but trying > > to make you think that it is not their fault. That's the way > > business works. > > > If the tobacco industry had to admit that their product has > > killed thousand of people, they may as well close the factories > > before going to trial. They know that, the judges know that and > > that's why no one is winning a case against the tobacco industry. > > > > > > This being said, I understand very well how you feel and how you > > wish Jabiru should fix your problem. But look at the bright side; > > if it will cost you some money, you are still a good mechanic and > > you will put back your engine together in no time. If the same had > > happened to me ... I would have to ask you to come to Norway in > > order to fix my engine because I don't know anything about it. Of > > course, it would be wonderful to meet you but ... it would be a > > long way for me to go before I am back in the air ... if I ever > will. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Michel > > > > > > > > > 

> > >ist">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
> > &ntribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> > >===========
> > >
> > >
> > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List_- > > ============================================================ _- > > forums.matronics.com_- > > ============================================================ _- > > contribution_- > > =========================================================== > > > - > - > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > > www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List _- > www.matronics.com/contribution _- > =========================================================== ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:13:23 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: RE: Timing gear I'm thinking that the 2-stroke bike makes a good dirt bike, but I'd want a 4-stroke for the long hauls...similar to how I feel about the airplane engines. I know I'll get arguments against that thinking, but that's me. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster Jabiru 2200 Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink Floyd..."Learning to Fly") do not archive On Aug 12, 2008, at 7:53 PM, patrick reilly wrote: > Lynn, Yeah, I like the 4 stroke sound too. I still prefer two > stroke dirt bikes though. I don't think I mentioned it, but I > bought a Wittman tailwind W10 4 or 5 months ago with a Lyc 0-290. > It needs a little tlc but after I get the Kitfox up I will get the > W10 going for extended trips and the fox will be outfitted as a > bush plane. > > Do not archive > > Pat Reilly > Mod 3 582 Rebuild > Rockford, IL > > > From: lynnmatt@jps.net > > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: RE: Timing gear > > Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 17:07:29 -0400 > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > > > > 2-stroke? I'll pass, Pat...thanks. My ears like the semi-low steady > > drone of a 4-stroke at low rpm, sucking minimal fuel. Climb is not > > that important to me, as I like to get away from the pattern and go > > places. And when this airplane bug crawled up my backside, it > carried > > a sign saying "Do something different...don't follow the crowd", so > > I'm stickin' to that anthem, for better or worse....besides, don't > > the mighty 582's also fail from time to time? Even when I was flying > > model airplanes, I went for a 4-stroke as soon as I could find > > one...I like the sound, for whatever that's worth...and it's worth a > > lot to me. Just for what it's worth, I never got on the Chevvie V8 > > bandwagon either, choosing to beat them with my Oldsmobile, and > later > > Chrysler Hemi engines (yeah I know, I climbed on THAT bandwagon) : ) > > > > Lynn Matteson > > Kitfox IV Speedster > > Jabiru 2200 > > Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink > > Floyd..."Learning to Fly") > > do not archive > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 12, 2008, at 4:36 PM, patrick reilly wrote: > > > > > Lynn, Just get a 582 with less moving parts to worry about that > out > > > climbs that 912 with 15 less HP and costs 1/2 as much. > > > Do not archive > > > Pat Reilly > > > Mod 3 582 Rebuild > > > Rockford, IL > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 20:11:42 +0200 > > > > From: michel@online.no > > > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > > Subject: Kitfox-List: RE: Timing gear > > > > > > > > > From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt@jps.net] > > > > > I gotta say that Jabiru can point to every drop of flys**t > that > > > lands > > > > > on the engine and claim that that's what caused the problem! > > > > > > > > Lynn, they can't do anything else but that. If they admit that > > > the engine has a weak point, they risk a liability suit from each > > > and every owner and it would mean bankrupcy and closing of the > > > plant. On the other hand, when they know that there is a weakness > > > with the engine, they have to publish a service bulletin but > trying > > > to make you think that it is not their fault. That's the way > > > business works. > > > > If the tobacco industry had to admit that their product has > > > killed thousand of people, they may as well close the factories > > > before going to trial. They know that, the judges know that and > > > that's why no one is winning a case against the tobacco industry. > > > > > > > > This being said, I understand very well how you feel and how you > > > wish Jabiru should fix your problem. But look at the bright side; > > > if it will cost you some money, you are still a good mechanic and > > > you will put back your engine together in no time. If the same had > > > happened to me ... I would have to ask you to come to Norway in > > > order to fix my engine because I don't know anything about it. Of > > > course, it would be wonderful to meet you but ... it would be a > > > long way for me to go before I am back in the air ... if I ever > will. > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Michel > > > > > > > > > > > > 

> > > >ist">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
> > > &ntribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> > > >===========
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List_- > > > ========== _- > > > forums.matronics.com_- > > > =================================== _- > > > contribution_- > > > ================================== > > > >============= > > > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List_- > ============================================================ _- > forums.matronics.com_- > ============================================================ _- > contribution_- > =========================================================== ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:29:11 AM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: certification question Dan, I agree with both the FAA guy and J McB, I chose Light Sport because even if I provided enough documentation to get AB I would still be limited as to what I could do to the plane due to not being the original builder. Also my Kitfox 2, which was a "microlight" in the UK, fits the definition of a heavy ultralight here and I did get my N number last year. All of the cons of ELSA (no IFR, no night flying) don't matter to me while the pros (my own work and inspections, can downgrade to Sport Pilot) do. You, as the builder, wouldn't have those restrictions; and if you're not concerned about a full PPL and medicals then Amateur Built is definitely what you should get. Bob Brennan 1991 UK Model 2 Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DanM Sent: 13 August 2008 8:46 am Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: certification question The FAA guy told me the the light sport is only for heavy ultra lights that want to become legal. And you have to obtained your n number by Jan 08. I think he's wrong, but I don't want to offend him before my inspection. John Mc Bean says better off to stay experimental AB. I think I'll take his advice. -------- Dan Mc Intyre Kitfox Model IV, Jab 2200 N443DM Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198355#198355 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:39:24 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: RE: Timing gear They say that the only people on the groups/lists are the ones having problems, the others are out flying. I seem to have a lemon of an engine. First a distributor shaft seal wore a groove into one of the shafts, causing an oil leak that saturated one of the caps, then the rocker arm bushings went to hell, now the timing gear breaks, causing me major engine work. In every case, I got the "rare and unusual" answer back from Jabiru. So now I just rebuild and fly and hope others don't have the same problems. My ownership of this engine got off on the wrong foot when one engine out of a shipment of 7 was impaled on a fork lift. That engine was sent back to Aussieland for repair, and I was sent a different engine, so maybe that started the whole "jinx" thing. : ) John's engine suffered bad valve guides, and he had them replaced, but they used the old valves, then a valve head broke off, so I'm going to have my guides replaced and go with new valves. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster Jabiru 2200 Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink Floyd..."Learning to Fly") do not archive On Aug 13, 2008, at 7:34 AM, Michel Verheughe wrote: >> From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt@jps.net] >> When this is all said and done, I doubt you'll be reading a lot of my >> posts encouraging folks to buy any particular engine...I love the >> little s**t, but love can carry you only so far. > > I understand you perfectly, Lynn. I must say that your engine > failure and John Miller's failure - two airmen I respect highly - > put a shade on my opinion of the Jabiru. But ... do we hear of > those who are happily flying? I need some statistics to make my mind. > > Yesterday I did the mistake to read the side effects of the drugs I > take now after my heart attack. That can really scare the hell out > of an innocent man! There isn't an ailment that is not on the list > of possible side effects! Did you know that a side effect of beta- > blockers is ... heart attack? What the ****! I take those to avoid > a new heart attack and ... they can provoke it! > > Sometimes in life it is better to stop reading! > > Cheers, > Michel Verheughe > Norway > Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... grounded > Do not archive > > > 

>
> List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
> forums.matronics.com
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>
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________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:56:57 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Tailwheel Spring From: "rawheels" I'm not following you Dick. Maybe you could post some pics? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198371#198371 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:08:57 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Timing gear From: "dave" Pat, Not true on equivalent weight Kitfoxes. 582 wil last 300 to 500 hours pretty easy though and yes alot less moving parts. Climb performance suffers most from heavy Kitfoxes. This is why the new Kitfox Supersport is more of a cruiser than a STOL Kitfox. I think the model IV was the best Kitfox ever built so far as long as they do not wiigh 700 lbs ++ . But no noemaking now that is advertizing them For example my IV with a 582 on Amphib flaots will leave grass solo in about 400 feet and that wights about 700 lbs empty and still climb 700 fpm + on a 80 to 100F day . > Lynn C Just get a 582 with less moving parts to worry about that out climbs that 912 with 15 less HP and costs 1/2 as much. > ?? Do not archive > Pat Reilly > Mod 3 582 Rebuild > Rockford C IL -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada Flying Videos and Kitfox Info http://www.cfisher.com/ Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198372#198372 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:30:04 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Part of the Kitfox Line for sale From: "dave" John, Can you explain why this part of the Kitfox line is for sale ? Kitfox Lite? Also - will you or your partners be selling any of the other Kitfox model lines in the future? Also will you be making parts available for models 1 to 6 Kitfoxes? Kitfox Lite I assume the answer is no. Will you be offering a Super sport or another model that is a tail dragger and with STOL performance like the Kitfox IV has given for the past man yearS? Thanks in advance. Dave -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada Flying Videos and Kitfox Info http://www.cfisher.com/ Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198376#198376 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:48:28 AM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: Kitfox-List: Light Sport certification I am now the proud owner of an ELSA certified, flyable!, UK imported Kitfox II. My DAR just left, leaving my Airworthiness Certificate and a lot of paperwork behind, and said "go fly it!". For 5 hours in a test area only, but then free as a bird. I made a wrong statement in a previous posting - a Light Sport certified Kitfox is not excluded from night flight or IFR if properly equipped. So it looks like Light Sport is a much better category for anyone owning a Kitfox that is not the original builder. Once I have taken the 16 hour ELSA Airplane Repair-Inspection course I can do all my own work and annual inspection. Time to add a few more tie-wraps and go flying :-)))) Bob Brennan 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:48:28 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: KitFox Fuel Starvation From: "n85ae" Is it possible that what you saw was a "Header Low" indicator light? Or did you really see low fuel pressure? In my Fox I get header low flickering when I get down to about 1/4 fuel remaining. It was a bit disconcerting at first, but it is normal for the low header light to start becoming a bit active as the fuel feeds start getting exposed to air as the fuel in the tanks sloshes about. If on the other hand you really are seeing low "pressure" that would be a concern. Regards, Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198388#198388 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:01:28 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Light Sport certification From: "Kyle" Congratulations Bob, I think the only reason you were able to certify as ELSA was because you had registered with the FAA and obtained your N number before the Jan. 31, 2008 deadline. I don't know that the ELSA category is available to kit builders now. I thought the window of opportunity to certify as ELSA ended on Jan. 31. 2008. A extension was granted if you had already started the process with the FAA before that date. Again Congratulations, -------- Kyle Dunn Eddyville, Kentucky Kitfox IV 1200 912 Rotax 1978 Cessna 172 N American Aero Phoenix II w/582 Rotax Rotorway Exec. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198391#198391 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:01:54 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Light Sport certification From: "dave" CONGRATS !!!!!!!! -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada Flying Videos and Kitfox Info http://www.cfisher.com/ Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198392#198392 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:10:18 AM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Light Sport certification Yes - to certify as ELSA the airplane had to have it's N number before Jan 31 2008, which fortunately I did (after fighting the FAA for 9 months to get it!). I also had to *prove* the airplane never had an Airworthiness Certificate in the UK, which was the biggest hurdle. How does one prove a negative? (that's rhetorical...) Hard to believe though that no new kit-built airplanes can be certified as Light Sport? Ever? Only production built Light Sport from now on? Sucks for Sport Pilots, although might be good for the resale value of my Kitfox... :-)) Bob Brennan 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kyle Sent: 13 August 2008 12:01 pm Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Light Sport certification Congratulations Bob, I think the only reason you were able to certify as ELSA was because you had registered with the FAA and obtained your N number before the Jan. 31, 2008 deadline. I don't know that the ELSA category is available to kit builders now. I thought the window of opportunity to certify as ELSA ended on Jan. 31. 2008. A extension was granted if you had already started the process with the FAA before that date. Again Congratulations, -------- Kyle Dunn Eddyville, Kentucky Kitfox IV 1200 912 Rotax 1978 Cessna 172 N American Aero Phoenix II w/582 Rotax Rotorway Exec. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198391#198391 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 09:53:15 AM PST US From: Michael Gibbs Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Light Sport certification Bob sez: >Hard to believe though that no new kit-built airplanes can be certified as >Light Sport? Ever? Only production built Light Sport from now on? Sucks for >Sport Pilots, although might be good for the resale value of my Kitfox... No, sport pilots are fine. You are confusing the aircraft's category with the pilot qualifications necessary to operate them. Sport pilots can fly any aircraft that meets the sport pilot limitations, regardless of whether it is an Experimental Light Sport, Certified Light Sport, or Experimental. The airplane's category affects only the requirements for maintenance and inspections. Mike G. N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster Phoenix, AZ ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:10:48 AM PST US From: kerrjohna@comcast.net Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Light Sport certification There might be a lack of understanding regarding the Sport Pilot rule. A Sport Pilot can fly any plane, certified, experimental amature built, etc that falls within the limitations of the Light Sport Aircraft rule. John Kerr -------------- Original message -------------- From: "Bob Brennan" > > Yes - to certify as ELSA the airplane had to have it's N number before Jan > 31 2008, which fortunately I did (after fighting the FAA for 9 months to get > it!). I also had to *prove* the airplane never had an Airworthiness > Certificate in the UK, which was the biggest hurdle. How does one prove a > negative? (that's rhetorical...) > > Hard to believe though that no new kit-built airplanes can be certified as > Light Sport? Ever? Only production built Light Sport from now on? Sucks for > Sport Pilots, although might be good for the resale value of my Kitfox... > :-)) > > Bob Brennan > 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox > Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop > Wrightsville Pa > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kyle > Sent: 13 August 2008 12:01 pm > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Light Sport certification > > > Congratulations Bob, > > I think the only reason you were able to certify as ELSA was because you had > registered with the FAA and obtained your N number before the Jan. 31, 2008 > deadline. I don't know that the ELSA category is available to kit builders > now. I thought the window of opportunity to certify as ELSA ended on Jan. > 31. 2008. A extension was granted if you had already started the process > with the FAA before that date. > > Again Congratulations, > > -------- > Kyle Dunn > Eddyville, Kentucky > Kitfox IV 1200 912 Rotax > 1978 Cessna 172 N > American Aero Phoenix II w/582 Rotax > Rotorway Exec. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198391#198391 > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
There might be a lack of understanding regarding the Sport Pilot rule.  A Sport Pilot can fly any plane, certified, experimental amature built, etc that falls within the limitations of the Light Sport Aircraft rule.
 
John Kerr
 
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Bob Brennan" <matronics@bob.brennan.name>

> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bob Brennan"
>
> Yes - to certify as ELSA the airplane had to have it's N number before Jan
> 31 2008, which fortunately I did (after fighting the FAA for 9 months to get
> it!). I also had to *prove* the airplane never had an Airworthiness
> Certificate in the UK, which was the biggest hurdle. How does one prove a
> negative? (that's rhetorical...)
>
> Hard to believe though that no new kit-built airplanes can be certified as
> Light Sport? Ever? Only production built Light Sport from now on? Sucks for
> Sport Pilots, although might be good for the resale value of my Kitfox...
> :-))
>
> Bob Brennan
> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
> Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
> Wrightsville Pa
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kyle
> Sent: 13 August 2008 12:01 pm
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Light Sport certification
>
> --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Kyle"
>
> Congratulations Bob,
>
> I think the only reason you were able to certify as ELSA was because you had
> registered with the FAA and obtained your N number before the Jan. 31, 2008
> deadline. I don't know that the ELSA category is available to kit builders
> now. I thought the window of opportunity to certify as ELSA ended on Jan.
> 31. 2008. A extension was granted if you had already started the process
> with the FAA before that date.
& gt; >
________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 10:15:26 AM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Light Sport certification Lack of understanding yes. Where does one find the "limitations of the Light Sport Aircraft rule" specifically? _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kerrjohna@comcast.net Sent: 13 August 2008 1:10 pm Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Light Sport certification There might be a lack of understanding regarding the Sport Pilot rule. A Sport Pilot can fly any plane, certified, experimental amature built, etc that falls within the limitations of the Light Sport Aircraft rule. John Kerr -------------- Original message -------------- From: "Bob Brennan" > > Yes - to certify as ELSA the airplane had to have it's N number before Jan > 31 2008, which fortunately I did (after fighting the FAA for 9 months to get > it!). I also had to *prove* the airplane never had an Airworthiness > Certificate in the UK, which was the biggest hurdle. How does one prove a > negative? (that's rhetorical...) > > Hard to believe though that no new kit-built airplanes can be certified as > Light Sport? Ever? Only production built Light Sport from now on? Sucks for > Sport Pilots, although might be good for the resale value of my Kitfox... > :-)) > > Bob Brennan > 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox > Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop > Wrightsville Pa > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kyle > Sent: 13 August 2008 12:01 pm > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Light Sport certification > > > Congratulations Bob, > > I think the only reason you were able to certify as ELSA was because you had > registered with the FAA and obtained your N number before the Jan. 31, 2008 > deadline. I don't know that the ELSA category is available to kit builders > now. I thought the window of opportunity to certify as ELSA ended on Jan. > 31. 2008. A extension was granted if you had already started the process > with the FAA before that date. & gt; > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 10:46:18 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: KitFox Fuel Starvation From: "FlyboyTR" Dale, There was a recall on the Rotax 912 fuel pump about a year ago. I had one fail while flying a new airplane home for a friend! If the indicated pressure did not change after turning on the boost pump...I would think there may be a flow/pressure sensor issue. What was the pressure before and after the change? Did the engine performance change? Dick,...I think your 912 must have spent some time sitting on top of some sacred burial ground....all them haints just keep coming out! :D I need to come see you! Travis :D -------- Travis Rayner Mobile, AL Skystar Vixen, N-789DF Continental IO-240, Prince P-Tip Prop ADI-II Autopilot AnyWhereMap Navigation with weather Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198407#198407 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 11:23:16 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Light Sport certification I think some of you are confusing Light Sport Aircraft and Sport Pilot. As far as I know there is no such thing as a "Light Sport Aircraft rule." There are limitations on the Sport Pilot, and what, where, and when he or she can fly, but the LSA is an aircraft, and must meet the limitations/restrictions of Light Sport Aircraft, mainly the gross weight rule, but certainly the speed and possibly the number of passengers comes to mind. I've heard people talk about Light Sport Pilot...(making up new names as they go)....and try as I may (in my own little way) I can't get them to call the pilot by the right title. I told one guy: "Look at this beer gut on me...do you think I'm a LIGHT sport pilot?" Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster Jabiru 2200 Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink Floyd..."Learning to Fly") do not archive On Aug 13, 2008, at 1:14 PM, Bob Brennan wrote: > Lack of understanding yes. Where does one find the "limitations of > the Light Sport Aircraft rule" specifically? > > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox- > list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kerrjohna@comcast.net > Sent: 13 August 2008 1:10 pm > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Light Sport certification > > There might be a lack of understanding regarding the Sport Pilot > rule. A Sport Pilot can fly any plane, certified, experimental > amature built, etc that falls within the limitations of the Light > Sport Aircraft rule. > > John Kerr > > -------------- Original message -------------- > From: "Bob Brennan" > > > > > Yes - to certify as ELSA the airplane had to have it's N number > before Jan > > 31 2008, which fortunately I did (after fighting the FAA for 9 > months to get > > it!). I also had to *prove* the airplane never had an Airworthiness > > Certificate in the UK, which was the biggest hurdle. How does one > prove a > > negative? (that's rhetorical...) > > > > Hard to believe though that no new kit-built airplanes can be > certified as > > Light Sport? Ever? Only production built Light Sport from now on? > Sucks for > > Sport Pilots, although might be good for the resale value of my > Kitfox... > > :-)) > > > > Bob Brennan > > 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox > > Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop > > Wrightsville Pa > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kyle > > Sent: 13 August 2008 12:01 pm > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Light Sport certification > > > > > > Congratulations Bob, > > > > I think the only reason you were able to certify as ELSA was > because you had > > registered with the FAA and obtained your N number before the > Jan. 31, 2008 > > deadline. I don't know that the ELSA category is available to kit > builders > > now. I thought the window of opportunity to certify as ELSA ended > on Jan. > > 31. 2008. A extension was granted if you had already started the > process > > with the FAA before that date. > & gt; > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox- > List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http:// > forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/ > contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c _- > www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List _- > www.matronics.com/contribution _- > =========================================================== ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 11:26:55 AM PST US From: Marco Menezes Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Light Sport certification Congratulations Bob for having successfully negotiated the FAA regulatory m inefield. Others will no doubt follow in your footsteps someday. Now go out and have fun. - Marco Menezes N99KX Model 2 582-90 C-Box --- On Wed, 8/13/08, Bob Brennan wrote: From: Bob Brennan Subject: Kitfox-List: Light Sport certification I am now the proud owner of an ELSA certified, flyable!, UK imported Kitfox II. My DAR just left, leaving my Airworthiness Certificate and a lot of paperwork behind, and said "go fly it!". For 5 hours in a test area only, but then free as a bird. I made a wrong statement in a previous posting - a Light Sport certified Kitfox is not excluded from night flight or IFR if properly equipped. So it looks like Light Sport is a much better category for anyone owning a Kitfox that is not the original builder. Once I have taken the 16 hour ELSA Airplane Repair-Inspection course I can do all my own work and annual inspection. Time to add a few more tie-wraps and go flying :-)))) Bob Brennan 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 12:06:29 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: KitFox Fuel Starvation From: "JetPilot" I use a Facett solid state fuel pump for my Rotax 912-S. The fuel pump is rated for something like 40,000 hours, costs only 40 bucks, and easy to install in series in the fuel line. Fuel keeps going through the pump weather and the 912-S runs fine weather the facett pump turned on or off, and will keep the 912-S running in case that the engine driven pump on the 912-S ever fails. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198423#198423 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 12:58:35 PM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Light Sport certification >From http://www.sportpilot.org/interest/privileges_limitations.html "Allows sport pilots to fly production (standard airworthiness certificate) and experimental amateur-built aircraft that meet the definition of a light-sport aircraft." So a Sport Pilot *can* fly any airplane that meets the Light Sport category requirements, whether it is certificated as Light Sport or not; but they can *not* fly any larger/faster aircraft. Of course, who determines if a non-certificated Light Sport eligible aircraft really qualifies is ambiguous, and as I found out the hard way the FAA can easily say "no it isn't..." if they feel like it. It seems to me that any Sport Pilot that flies a non-ELSA plane is wide open to being charged with flying outside his/her privileges without a long drawn out argument with the FAA. Like I just had! Hypothetically, if I was a Sport Pilot and my Kitfox was Experimental Amateur-Built, I would believe that I could fly it legally. But if caught by the FAA they would have approached my claim that my Kitfox was ELSA-eligible from a persecution (oops, I'm sure I meant "prosecution") standpoint and I could well have lost the battle. Just my 2 cents from recent perspective. And experience. Bob Brennan 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson Sent: 13 August 2008 2:22 pm Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Light Sport certification I think some of you are confusing Light Sport Aircraft and Sport Pilot. As far as I know there is no such thing as a "Light Sport Aircraft rule." There are limitations on the Sport Pilot, and what, where, and when he or she can fly, but the LSA is an aircraft, and must meet the limitations/restrictions of Light Sport Aircraft, mainly the gross weight rule, but certainly the speed and possibly the number of passengers comes to mind. I've heard people talk about Light Sport Pilot...(making up new names as they go)....and try as I may (in my own little way) I can't get them to call the pilot by the right title. I told one guy: "Look at this beer gut on me...do you think I'm a LIGHT sport pilot?" Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster Jabiru 2200 Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink Floyd..."Learning to Fly") do not archive On Aug 13, 2008, at 1:14 PM, Bob Brennan wrote: > Lack of understanding yes. Where does one find the "limitations of > the Light Sport Aircraft rule" specifically? > > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox- > list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kerrjohna@comcast.net > Sent: 13 August 2008 1:10 pm > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Light Sport certification > > There might be a lack of understanding regarding the Sport Pilot > rule. A Sport Pilot can fly any plane, certified, experimental > amature built, etc that falls within the limitations of the Light > Sport Aircraft rule. > > John Kerr > > -------------- Original message -------------- > From: "Bob Brennan" > > > > > Yes - to certify as ELSA the airplane had to have it's N number > before Jan > > 31 2008, which fortunately I did (after fighting the FAA for 9 > months to get > > it!). I also had to *prove* the airplane never had an Airworthiness > > Certificate in the UK, which was the biggest hurdle. How does one > prove a > > negative? (that's rhetorical...) > > > > Hard to believe though that no new kit-built airplanes can be > certified as > > Light Sport? Ever? Only production built Light Sport from now on? > Sucks for > > Sport Pilots, although might be good for the resale value of my > Kitfox... > > :-)) > > > > Bob Brennan > > 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox > > Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop > > Wrightsville Pa > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kyle > > Sent: 13 August 2008 12:01 pm > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Light Sport certification > > > > > > Congratulations Bob, > > > > I think the only reason you were able to certify as ELSA was > because you had > > registered with the FAA and obtained your N number before the > Jan. 31, 2008 > > deadline. I don't know that the ELSA category is available to kit > builders > > now. I thought the window of opportunity to certify as ELSA ended > on Jan. > > 31. 2008. A extension was granted if you had already started the > process > > with the FAA before that date. > & gt; > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox- > List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http:// > forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/ > contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c _- > www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List _- > www.matronics.com/contribution _- > =========================================================== ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 01:27:33 PM PST US From: paul wilson Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Light Sport certification Bob I think that battle has already been fought. The EAA has a list of the planes that a sport pilot can fly with no issues. All you have to do is ask. PAul ========== At 01:56 PM 8/13/2008, you wrote: > > >From http://www.sportpilot.org/interest/privileges_limitations.html > >"Allows sport pilots to fly production (standard airworthiness certificate) >and experimental amateur-built aircraft that meet the definition of a >light-sport aircraft." > >So a Sport Pilot *can* fly any airplane that meets the Light Sport category >requirements, whether it is certificated as Light Sport or not; but they can >*not* fly any larger/faster aircraft. Of course, who determines if a >non-certificated Light Sport eligible aircraft really qualifies is >ambiguous, and as I found out the hard way the FAA can easily say "no it >isn't..." if they feel like it. It seems to me that any Sport Pilot that >flies a non-ELSA plane is wide open to being charged with flying outside >his/her privileges without a long drawn out argument with the FAA. Like I >just had! > >Hypothetically, if I was a Sport Pilot and my Kitfox was Experimental >Amateur-Built, I would believe that I could fly it legally. But if caught by >the FAA they would have approached my claim that my Kitfox was ELSA-eligible >from a persecution (oops, I'm sure I meant "prosecution") standpoint and I >could well have lost the battle. > >Just my 2 cents from recent perspective. And experience. > >Bob Brennan >1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox >Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop >Wrightsville Pa > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson >Sent: 13 August 2008 2:22 pm >To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Light Sport certification > > >I think some of you are confusing Light Sport Aircraft and Sport >Pilot. As far as I know there is no such thing as a "Light Sport >Aircraft rule." There are limitations on the Sport Pilot, and what, >where, and when he or she can fly, but the LSA is an aircraft, and >must meet the limitations/restrictions of Light Sport Aircraft, >mainly the gross weight rule, but certainly the speed and possibly >the number of passengers comes to mind. > >I've heard people talk about Light Sport Pilot...(making up new names >as they go)....and try as I may (in my own little way) I can't get >them to call the pilot by the right title. I told one guy: "Look at >this beer gut on me...do you think I'm a LIGHT sport pilot?" > >Lynn Matteson >Kitfox IV Speedster >Jabiru 2200 >Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink >Floyd..."Learning to Fly") >do not archive > > >On Aug 13, 2008, at 1:14 PM, Bob Brennan wrote: > > > Lack of understanding yes. Where does one find the "limitations of > > the Light Sport Aircraft rule" specifically? > > > > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox- > > list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kerrjohna@comcast.net > > Sent: 13 August 2008 1:10 pm > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Light Sport certification > > > > There might be a lack of understanding regarding the Sport Pilot > > rule. A Sport Pilot can fly any plane, certified, experimental > > amature built, etc that falls within the limitations of the Light > > Sport Aircraft rule. > > > > John Kerr > > > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > From: "Bob Brennan" > > > > > > > > Yes - to certify as ELSA the airplane had to have it's N number > > before Jan > > > 31 2008, which fortunately I did (after fighting the FAA for 9 > > months to get > > > it!). I also had to *prove* the airplane never had an Airworthiness > > > Certificate in the UK, which was the biggest hurdle. How does one > > prove a > > > negative? (that's rhetorical...) > > > > > > Hard to believe though that no new kit-built airplanes can be > > certified as > > > Light Sport? Ever? Only production built Light Sport from now on? > > Sucks for > > > Sport Pilots, although might be good for the resale value of my > > Kitfox... > > > :-)) > > > > > > Bob Brennan > > > 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox > > > Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop > > > Wrightsville Pa > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > > > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kyle > > > Sent: 13 August 2008 12:01 pm > > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Light Sport certification > > > > > > > > > Congratulations Bob, > > > > > > I think the only reason you were able to certify as ELSA was > > because you had > > > registered with the FAA and obtained your N number before the > > Jan. 31, 2008 > > > deadline. I don't know that the ELSA category is available to kit > > builders > > > now. I thought the window of opportunity to certify as ELSA ended > > on Jan. > > > 31. 2008. A extension was granted if you had already started the > > process > > > with the FAA before that date. > > & gt; > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox- > > List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http:// > > forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/ > > contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c _- > > www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List _- > > www.matronics.com/contribution _- > > =========================================================== > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 01:38:47 PM PST US From: "Keith C." Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Light Sport certification Bob, Congrats, and welcome. Enjoy and pass along your knowledge. Keith C. Mod IV Speedster 912 IVO Mather (MHR) CA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Brennan" Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 8:47 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Light Sport certification > > > > I am now the proud owner of an ELSA certified, flyable!, UK imported > Kitfox > II. My DAR just left, leaving my Airworthiness Certificate and a lot of > paperwork behind, and said "go fly it!". For 5 hours in a test area only, > but then free as a bird. > > I made a wrong statement in a previous posting - a Light Sport certified > Kitfox is not excluded from night flight or IFR if properly equipped. So > it > looks like Light Sport is a much better category for anyone owning a > Kitfox > that is not the original builder. Once I have taken the 16 hour ELSA > Airplane Repair-Inspection course I can do all my own work and annual > inspection. > > Time to add a few more tie-wraps and go flying :-)))) > > Bob Brennan > 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox > Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop > Wrightsville Pa > > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 01:44:10 PM PST US From: Michael Gibbs Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Light Sport certification >So a Sport Pilot *can* fly any airplane that meets the Light Sport category >requirements, whether it is certificated as Light Sport or not; but they can >*not* fly any larger/faster aircraft. No, a Sport Pilot can fly any airplane that meets the requirements for that license. "Sport Pilot" is a type of pilot certificate. "Light Sport Airplane" is a category of aircraft certification. The two are not directly related. The "Light Sport Airplane" category was introduced to simplify the certification and maintenance requirements for very small airplanes while "Sport Pilot" was intended to reduce the training requirements (and operational flexibility) for pilots. >It seems to me that any Sport Pilot that flies a non-ELSA plane is >wide open to being charged with flying outside his/her privileges >without a long drawn out argument with the FAA. Not at all. Plenty of sport pilots are flying certificated airplanes, like Luscombes and Cubs, and various experimental aircraft (including Kitfoxes and Avid Flyers) that meet the sport pilot limitations and are not ELSAs. >Hypothetically, if I was a Sport Pilot and my Kitfox was Experimental >Amateur-Built, I would believe that I could fly it legally. If it meets the operational and performance limits for sport pilot operation, yes. >But if caught by the FAA they would have approached my claim that my >Kitfox was ELSA-eligible... Has nothing to do with it. You can read the details on the FAA's web site: Sport Pilot Certificate Light Sport Aircraft Mike G. N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster Phoenix, AZ ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 01:51:29 PM PST US From: Michael Gibbs Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Light Sport certification Bob sez: >I made a wrong statement in a previous posting - a Light Sport certified >Kitfox is not excluded from night flight or IFR if properly equipped. The plane isn't excluded from night or IFR flight, but a sport pilot flying it would be. In order to operate a properly-equipped light sport aircraft at night the pilot would have to hold at least a private pilot certificate with a valid medical and to operate IFR he or she would also have to be instrument rated. Mike G. N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster Phoenix, AZ ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 02:02:34 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: certification question From: "dcsfoto" along with the prior jan 31 N reg you must have an exemption letter. two organizations have the exemption,EAA is one do not remember the other David Kitkox 3 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198446#198446 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 02:13:52 PM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Light Sport certification Exactly, which is part of the "confusion". I, as a fully rated PPL, could fly my ELSA aircraft at night and/or IFR if properly equipped. A holder of a Sport Pilot ticket could not, in any aircraft. The confusion mostly comes from the fact that a Sport pilot is not restricted to flying an ELSA certificated aircraft, and can fly any aircraft that "meets ELSA requirements". Tell that to Dan McIntyre who could technically legally fly his Amateur Built certificated (soon...) Kitfox IV on a Sport Pilot ticket - the FAA official who has told him his airplane is *not* ELSA eligible could now burn his ticket. While still in his wallet. While still in his pants. I just spent more than 2 months and more than $1,000 getting a real ELSA certificate for my Kitfox 2 that was clearly ELSA-eligible; I doubt the FAA would have agreed that it is ELSA-eligible if I was caught flying it in restricted airspace on a Sport Pilot ticket and it wasn't ELSA certificated. I would get done for airspace violations *and* flying outside the privileges of my license, for sure. Which would be defensible yes, but time and money consuming. I just think, in my now-getting-tedious-opinion, that a Sport Pilot flying a non Light Sport aircraft is taking a risk. Bob Brennan 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Gibbs Sent: 13 August 2008 4:51 pm Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Light Sport certification Bob sez: >I made a wrong statement in a previous posting - a Light Sport certified >Kitfox is not excluded from night flight or IFR if properly equipped. The plane isn't excluded from night or IFR flight, but a sport pilot flying it would be. In order to operate a properly-equipped light sport aircraft at night the pilot would have to hold at least a private pilot certificate with a valid medical and to operate IFR he or she would also have to be instrument rated. Mike G. N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster Phoenix, AZ ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 02:17:39 PM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: certification question You must have the exemption letter *and* a personally signed assignment of the exemption to your aircraft from an EAA official. Which, BTW, the EAA were extremely helpful in providing quickly and accurately. Bob Brennan 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dcsfoto Sent: 13 August 2008 5:02 pm Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: certification question along with the prior jan 31 N reg you must have an exemption letter. two organizations have the exemption,EAA is one do not remember the other David Kitkox 3 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198446#198446 ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 02:26:47 PM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Light Sport certification Excellent information Paul, thank you. I think the info is here for future readers of this thread: http://www.sportpilot.org/learn/slsa/ Note though that there are no Kitfoxes on that list... My experience with the FAA however is that the whole Sport Pilot / Light Sport Aircraft thing is "too new" and it is still up to the pilot to defend, sometimes at great expense (there he goes again!), their position and rights under the new rules. I also would like to note that the EAA and AOPA have been *very* supportive of their members regarding these issues. Bob Brennan 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of paul wilson Sent: 13 August 2008 4:25 pm Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Light Sport certification Bob I think that battle has already been fought. The EAA has a list of the planes that a sport pilot can fly with no issues. All you have to do is ask. PAul ========== At 01:56 PM 8/13/2008, you wrote: > > >From http://www.sportpilot.org/interest/privileges_limitations.html > >"Allows sport pilots to fly production (standard airworthiness certificate) >and experimental amateur-built aircraft that meet the definition of a >light-sport aircraft." > >So a Sport Pilot *can* fly any airplane that meets the Light Sport category >requirements, whether it is certificated as Light Sport or not; but they can >*not* fly any larger/faster aircraft. Of course, who determines if a >non-certificated Light Sport eligible aircraft really qualifies is >ambiguous, and as I found out the hard way the FAA can easily say "no it >isn't..." if they feel like it. It seems to me that any Sport Pilot that >flies a non-ELSA plane is wide open to being charged with flying outside >his/her privileges without a long drawn out argument with the FAA. Like I >just had! > >Hypothetically, if I was a Sport Pilot and my Kitfox was Experimental >Amateur-Built, I would believe that I could fly it legally. But if caught by >the FAA they would have approached my claim that my Kitfox was ELSA-eligible >from a persecution (oops, I'm sure I meant "prosecution") standpoint and I >could well have lost the battle. > >Just my 2 cents from recent perspective. And experience. > >Bob Brennan >1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox >Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop >Wrightsville Pa > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson >Sent: 13 August 2008 2:22 pm >To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Light Sport certification > > >I think some of you are confusing Light Sport Aircraft and Sport >Pilot. As far as I know there is no such thing as a "Light Sport >Aircraft rule." There are limitations on the Sport Pilot, and what, >where, and when he or she can fly, but the LSA is an aircraft, and >must meet the limitations/restrictions of Light Sport Aircraft, >mainly the gross weight rule, but certainly the speed and possibly >the number of passengers comes to mind. > >I've heard people talk about Light Sport Pilot...(making up new names >as they go)....and try as I may (in my own little way) I can't get >them to call the pilot by the right title. I told one guy: "Look at >this beer gut on me...do you think I'm a LIGHT sport pilot?" > >Lynn Matteson >Kitfox IV Speedster >Jabiru 2200 >Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink >Floyd..."Learning to Fly") >do not archive > > >On Aug 13, 2008, at 1:14 PM, Bob Brennan wrote: > > > Lack of understanding yes. Where does one find the "limitations of > > the Light Sport Aircraft rule" specifically? > > > > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox- > > list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kerrjohna@comcast.net > > Sent: 13 August 2008 1:10 pm > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Light Sport certification > > > > There might be a lack of understanding regarding the Sport Pilot > > rule. A Sport Pilot can fly any plane, certified, experimental > > amature built, etc that falls within the limitations of the Light > > Sport Aircraft rule. > > > > John Kerr > > > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > From: "Bob Brennan" > > > > > > > > Yes - to certify as ELSA the airplane had to have it's N number > > before Jan > > > 31 2008, which fortunately I did (after fighting the FAA for 9 > > months to get > > > it!). I also had to *prove* the airplane never had an Airworthiness > > > Certificate in the UK, which was the biggest hurdle. How does one > > prove a > > > negative? (that's rhetorical...) > > > > > > Hard to believe though that no new kit-built airplanes can be > > certified as > > > Light Sport? Ever? Only production built Light Sport from now on? > > Sucks for > > > Sport Pilots, although might be good for the resale value of my > > Kitfox... > > > :-)) > > > > > > Bob Brennan > > > 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox > > > Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop > > > Wrightsville Pa > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > > > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kyle > > > Sent: 13 August 2008 12:01 pm > > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Light Sport certification > > > > > > > > > Congratulations Bob, > > > > > > I think the only reason you were able to certify as ELSA was > > because you had > > > registered with the FAA and obtained your N number before the > > Jan. 31, 2008 > > > deadline. I don't know that the ELSA category is available to kit > > builders > > > now. I thought the window of opportunity to certify as ELSA ended > > on Jan. > > > 31. 2008. A extension was granted if you had already started the > > process > > > with the FAA before that date. > > & gt; > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox- > > List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http:// > > forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/ > > contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c _- > > www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List _- > > www.matronics.com/contribution _- > > =========================================================== > > ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 02:46:46 PM PST US From: Michael Gibbs Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Light Sport certification Bob sez: >The confusion mostly comes from the fact that a Sport pilot is not >restricted to flying an ELSA certificated aircraft, and can fly any aircraft >that "meets ELSA requirements". No, the confusion comes because they have nothing to do with each other yet they both refer to "sport". ELSA requirements apply to the type of airplanes that can be certified as "Light Sport Airplanes". A Sport Pilot can fly any airplane that meets Sport Pilot operating restrictions, regardless of the type of certification (if any) the airplane underwent. >Tell that to Dan McIntyre who could technically legally fly his >Amateur Built certificated (soon...) Kitfox IV on a Sport Pilot >ticket - the FAA official who has told him his airplane is *not* >ELSA eligible could now burn his ticket. Whether or not his airplane qualifies as ELSA has nothing to do with it. If the airplane meets Sport Pilot limitations, he can operate it legally as a Sport Pilot. No burning wallets or pants. >I just spent more than 2 months and more than $1,000 getting a real ELSA >certificate for my Kitfox 2 that was clearly ELSA-eligible... What you bought with your money, time and trouble is a difference in the way your aircraft can be maintained and inspected--something valuable to you since you did not build the aircraft. It has no bearing on what type of pilot certificate is required to fly it and would provide little benefit to the builder who maintains and inspects his own airplane unless he sold it later. >I doubt the FAA would have agreed that it is ELSA-eligible if I was >caught flying it in restricted airspace on a Sport Pilot ticket and >it wasn't ELSA certificated. I would get done for airspace >violations *and* flying outside the privileges of my license, for >sure. No, you wouldn't. Assuming that your aircraft meets the limitations for Sport Pilots to operate it, you'd be perfectly legal to fly it as an Experimental, Experimental Light Sport, or if it had been certified as Normal or Light Sport categories. >I just think, in my now-getting-tedious-opinion, that a Sport Pilot >flying a non Light Sport aircraft is taking a risk. You really need to read those sections of the FARs that I posted the links to. Mike G. N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster Phoenix, AZ ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 02:46:46 PM PST US From: Michael Gibbs Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Light Sport certification Bob sez: >Excellent information Paul, thank you. >I think the info is here for future readers of this thread: >http://www.sportpilot.org/learn/slsa/ > >Note though that there are no Kitfoxes on that list... That doesn't mean much. This is a list of airplanes that people have had airworthiness certificates issued to as Special Light Sport Aircraft--nothing more. It doesn't mean that these airplanes are the only ones that a Sport Pilot can operate and it doesn't mean you have to change the certification of, for example, a Luscombe Silvaire to SLSA in order to operate it as a Sport Pilot. It also isn't a comprehensive list, it's just the ones that EAA is aware of. Mike G. N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster Phoenix, AZ ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 03:08:42 PM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Light Sport certification I agree with everything you say here Mike, I was simply relating my real-world experiences with the new rules for the benefit of anyone on the list who might share similar challenges. I was *very* fortunate to find helpful and persistent sources at the FAA, CAA, LAA, EAA, and this list just to name a few of my contacts during this "adventure". On my very first trip to my local FSDO I was told point blank "no way" I would ever be able to register and certificate my UK-built Kitfox here in the US. But for the persistence on many people's part, he would have been right. Bob Brennan 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Gibbs Sent: 13 August 2008 5:45 pm Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Light Sport certification Bob sez: >The confusion mostly comes from the fact that a Sport pilot is not >restricted to flying an ELSA certificated aircraft, and can fly any aircraft >that "meets ELSA requirements". No, the confusion comes because they have nothing to do with each other yet they both refer to "sport". ELSA requirements apply to the type of airplanes that can be certified as "Light Sport Airplanes". A Sport Pilot can fly any airplane that meets Sport Pilot operating restrictions, regardless of the type of certification (if any) the airplane underwent. >Tell that to Dan McIntyre who could technically legally fly his >Amateur Built certificated (soon...) Kitfox IV on a Sport Pilot >ticket - the FAA official who has told him his airplane is *not* >ELSA eligible could now burn his ticket. Whether or not his airplane qualifies as ELSA has nothing to do with it. If the airplane meets Sport Pilot limitations, he can operate it legally as a Sport Pilot. No burning wallets or pants. >I just spent more than 2 months and more than $1,000 getting a real ELSA >certificate for my Kitfox 2 that was clearly ELSA-eligible... What you bought with your money, time and trouble is a difference in the way your aircraft can be maintained and inspected--something valuable to you since you did not build the aircraft. It has no bearing on what type of pilot certificate is required to fly it and would provide little benefit to the builder who maintains and inspects his own airplane unless he sold it later. >I doubt the FAA would have agreed that it is ELSA-eligible if I was >caught flying it in restricted airspace on a Sport Pilot ticket and >it wasn't ELSA certificated. I would get done for airspace >violations *and* flying outside the privileges of my license, for >sure. No, you wouldn't. Assuming that your aircraft meets the limitations for Sport Pilots to operate it, you'd be perfectly legal to fly it as an Experimental, Experimental Light Sport, or if it had been certified as Normal or Light Sport categories. >I just think, in my now-getting-tedious-opinion, that a Sport Pilot >flying a non Light Sport aircraft is taking a risk. You really need to read those sections of the FARs that I posted the links to. Mike G. N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster Phoenix, AZ ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 04:46:39 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: RC Engines From: gary.algate@sandvik.com yes Lynn. When I built my first Kitfox my engine costs reduced significantly! Gary Gary Algate SMC, Exploration Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. Lynn Matteson Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com 13/08/2008 10:46 PM Please respond to kitfox-list@matronics.com To kitfox-list@matronics.com cc Subject Re: Kitfox-List: RE: Timing gear Man, you WERE into the big buck engines! I had a few of the O.S. 4's....a 70, a 52, a 91, but my favorite engine is the YS 120 AC, that is in my P-40. Before I got the Kitfox bug, I was working on a Stinson Reliant, and debated putting the O.S. 4-cylinder engine in it...then I got sidetracked by the Kifox.... Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster Jabiru 2200 Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink Floyd..."Learning to Fly") do not archive On Aug 12, 2008, at 7:31 PM, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote: > > Lynn - interesting what you said about Model airplanes - that's how > I got started in this hobby. Like you I also went from 2 stroke to > 4 stroke engines the last few planes I built were 1/3 scale and I > has a Seidel 9 cylinder / Seidel 7 Cylinder a Pegasus 4 cylinder > and a couple of 120's. That little lot would more than pay for a > brand new Jab 2200 or a 912! > > Sweet sound though and bloody reliable > > Gary > Gary Algate > Classic 4 Jab2200 > Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655 > > > This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the > addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of > this message by persons or entities other than the intended > recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, > kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the > message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for > any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may > arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. > > > Lynn Matteson > Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > 13/08/2008 06:47 AM > Please respond to > kitfox-list@matronics.com > > To > kitfox-list@matronics.com > cc > Subject > Re: Kitfox-List: RE: Timing gear > > > > 2-stroke? I'll pass, Pat...thanks. My ears like the semi-low steady > drone of a 4-stroke at low rpm, sucking minimal fuel. Climb is not > that important to me, as I like to get away from the pattern and go > places. And when this airplane bug crawled up my backside, it carried > a sign saying "Do something different...don't follow the crowd", so > I'm stickin' to that anthem, for better or worse....besides, don't > the mighty 582's also fail from time to time? Even when I was flying > model airplanes, I went for a 4-stroke as soon as I could find > one...I like the sound, for whatever that's worth...and it's worth a > lot to me. Just for what it's worth, I never got on the Chevvie V8 > bandwagon either, choosing to beat them with my Oldsmobile, and later > Chrysler Hemi engines (yeah I know, I climbed on THAT bandwagon) : ) > > Lynn Matteson > Kitfox IV Speedster > Jabiru 2200 > Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink > Floyd..."Learning to Fly") > do not archive > > > On Aug 12, 2008, at 4:36 PM, patrick reilly wrote: > > > Lynn, Just get a 582 with less moving parts to worry about that out > > climbs that 912 with 15 less HP and costs 1/2 as much. > > Do not archive > > Pat Reilly > > Mod 3 582 Rebuild > > Rockford, IL > > > > > Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 20:11:42 +0200 > > > From: michel@online.no > > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > Subject: Kitfox-List: RE: Timing gear > > > > > > > From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt@jps.net] > > > > I gotta say that Jabiru can point to every drop of flys**t that > > lands > > > > on the engine and claim that that's what caused the problem! > > > > > > Lynn, they can't do anything else but that. If they admit that > > the engine has a weak point, they risk a liability suit from each > > and every owner and it would mean bankrupcy and closing of the > > plant. On the other hand, when they know that there is a weakness > > with the engine, they have to publish a service bulletin but trying > > to make you think that it is not their fault. That's the way > > business works. > > > If the tobacco industry had to admit that their product has > > killed thousand of people, they may as well close the factories > > before going to trial. They know that, the judges know that and > > that's why no one is winning a case against the tobacco industry. > > > > > > This being said, I understand very well how you feel and how you > > wish Jabiru should fix your problem. But look at the bright side; > > if it will cost you some money, you are still a good mechanic and > > you will put back your engine together in no time. If the same had > > happened to me ... I would have to ask you to come to Norway in > > order to fix my engine because I don't know anything about it. Of > > course, it would be wonderful to meet you but ... it would be a > > long way for me to go before I am back in the air ... if I ever > will. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Michel > > > > > > > > > 

> > >ist">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
> > &ntribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> > >===========
> > >
> > >
> > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List_- > > ============================================================ _- > > forums.matronics.com_- > > ============================================================ _- > > contribution_- > > =========================================================== > > > - > - > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > > www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List _- > www.matronics.com/contribution _- > =========================================================== ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 06:06:26 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Aircraft ID plate The reason the instructions say to mount the ELT antenna a minimum of 5 ft away from your com ant. is to reduce the occurrence of a parasitic resonance. That could reduce the power output of your com. The reverse is also true if the ELT goes off and the com antenna is too close it will become a parasitic element to the ELT Ant. Why not mount the ELT ant on top of the vert stab? Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 10:17 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Aircraft ID plate That's what I did, on the pilot's side. It seems to be a good location and easily accessible. The only problem I am having now is mounting the antenna - it's supposed to be a minimum of 5ft from the radio antenna and since that is dead amidships it doesn't leave many options. I was thinking of mounting it about 6" from the radio antenna using the same plate, and figuring that if the ELT goes off automatically in a crash I will be in no shape to be using the radio anyway, and vice-versa. If I'm capable of using the radio I can just turn the ELT off, if not - it will work as it should. But I'm also reluctant to add more drag, do I really need that 2nd antenna? Does everyone with and ELT have a dedicated external antenna? For the inspection tomorrow I have connected the ELT to the antenna and put the hand-held antenna on my radio, which is a hand-held anyway. I won't be using the radio for a while so can consider options after I start flying again. Bob Brennan 1991 UK Model 2 Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of mike crutchlow Sent: 12 August 2008 6:19 pm Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Aircraft ID plate Bob, I bolted my ELT to the passenger seat tray facing forward. The remote is wired to the instrument panel to make it legal in Canada. I can reach the switch on the ELT from the pilot seat or I can use the remote switch. Seems to work fine in the location and it can be removed quite easily. Mike C. Model II, 582 -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan Sent: August 12, 2008 3:22 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Aircraft ID plate --> Thanks Ryan and Guy, I was thinking of riveting it to the inspection panel under the rear empennage but my DAR just called and said no - has to be part of the plane and visible from the outside. He has agreed to riveting it to the dash along with the other placards, although I'm not sure he knows that the dash is only held on by those "lord mounts" to a plastic gas tank... Oh well, his suggestion, his approval... Second question - although nearly done - I am mounting the ELT now and just like the data plate there ain't much to fix it too except for cloth and tubes. So I am opting for bolting it to the seat tray, as close to center as possible, facing forward as required. There I can get to it easily to switch it on manually, or unclamp it to take with me (it's made for that). Anybody care to note where/how their ELT is mounted please? Bob Brennan 1991 UK Model 2 Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rawheels Sent: 12 August 2008 2:54 pm Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Aircraft ID plate Bob, 1. The registration number does not get entered on the dataplate. (N-numbers can change, but this tag is permanent to the aircraft) 2&3. Production and Type Certificates apply to manufactured aircraft, since yours is an experimental/homebuilt, those blocks will be left blank. 4. Usually tags are riveted on the left rear of an aircraft fuselage, in front of and below the horizontal stabilizer. I didn't build my kitfox, so I'm not sure what structure to rivet to. Make sure that the Make/Builder, Model, and Serial Number blocks are filled in exactly as they are on all of your paperwork. Those are the only required entries for the tag. -------- Ryan Wheeler Kitfox IV-1200 Indianapolis, IN Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198193#198193 ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 06:33:13 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: certification question From: "Tom Jones" DanM wrote: > I'm just about ready for my FAA inspection on my model IV, scheduled for mid October. I can either certify it as experimetal amateur built or experimental light sport. Any body have any opinions or advice on this > subject? Also, the FAA inspector told me I can't certify my Kitfox IV as experimental light sport only experimental amateur built. I think he's wrong but I need more information before I "discuss it" with him. > > Thanks all Dan, I sense much confusion on the list about the LSA, ELSA, and Sport Pilot rules. The only advantage I can think of having a Kitfox that you built registered ELSA over Experimental Amateur Built is being able to use it in a commercial operation, and I may be wrong about that. I can tell you this much for sure: A Kitfox Model 4 with a ground adjustable prop meets the definition of a Light Sport Aircraft. I have a private pilot rating. I let my FAA medical lapse. My Kitfox Classic 4 is registered Experimental Amateur Built. I am flying it under Sport Pilot Rules. This is legal and has the blessing of my insurance Company, AIG. I agree with John McBean, register your Kitfox Experimental Amateur Built. -------- Tom Jones Classic IV 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp Ellensburg, WA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198492#198492 ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 06:42:32 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 91 octane, time to be heard! Thanks for the in depth response. The wheels of the FAA and TC (further north) turn very slowly. Just look at the 1920=92s technology being used to produce spark for the planes. As you have said your ethanol production is 100 % in excess of what is required for other uses. The same is not true this far North. One other point is you obviously have a pretty good turnover of ethanol inventory so the chances of having seriously hydrated fuel are pretty low. You also don=92t have to worry too much about phase separation of water and alcohol in flight. The phase separation is temperature dependent as well as saturation dependent. That can make using ethanol in gas here much more dicey. Noel From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Francisco Espuny Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 3:14 AM Subject: RES: Kitfox-List: 91 octane, time to be heard! Hi, Noel, In fact, 100% of our ethanol is obtained from fermentation of sugar cane. We have so much sugar cane fields that we can produce all sugar and ethanol we need in local market and there's also a large excess that's exported. The production is being increased day by day and, as we have a lot of unused land to be explored, this can be expanded many times and does not compete with food production. More than 80% new cars sold here are for gas/ethanol in any percent of each (that's what the local industry, GM, Ford, Fiat, Honda, VW, Peugeot, Renault, Nissan... call "flex"). You buy a car and anytime you go to the station you may choose among regular, premium or ethanol, no matter what you still have inside the tank and with no need to do anything in the car, and you'll feel always the same performance. We're experienced in the uses of ethanol, so there are cars, tractors, and many oyher machines explosion-engine powereds fueled with alchool, although all the large trucks use diesel that's been progressively changed to biodiesel, this one made from soy bean that may increase the food prices. But we're learning to explore mamona to produce biodiesel, and it's poisonous, so it will not compete, but open business opportunities and grow employment in the fields. We're also beginning the production of plastic sinthesized from sugar cane alchool. Oil will finish someday...land, not. There are solid parameters and very restrictive laws concerning fuels composition, and we can trust Petrobras, Shell, Texaco, Esso and other, but NEVER the truck driver and the gas-station owner. But fuels inside airports are absolutelly trusty, even in the little fields. We're proud 'cause we started the ethanol program as a poor country, thirty years ago, and now we are not dancing the music played by OPEC. We also discovered very large oil fields that we're exploring under the sea, but we prefer to expand the renewable, cheaper and less polutter biofuels, while letting the oil to the petrochemicals. I know that in the oil destilation process there's so much gasoline left, but we are exporting it too. We extract more oil than we need and we're not exploring 1% of our reserves. Brazil has about 180 million people and more than 30 million active cars and 50 million total active vehicles. Brazil is not a little, nor a poor country nowadays, but we have a heavy social contrast : too many poor people and too few very rich people in a natural resources-rich country. But this is changing with time and fuel production will increase life quality of the forgotten people living in distant areas. We just have to dominate the government hunger; taxes are stratosferic here. Some planes are runing on 100% ethanol carrying a particular technology, mainly the agriculture sprayers. They're not factory ready, but converted. Very safe and certified, the sprayers fly a lot, everyday. Believe-me: it's harder to certify a plane here than in the USA, because there's too much burocracy. Almost 100% general aviation planes here are Cessnas, Beechs and Pipers made in USA, and many Pipers built here under license by the local EMBRAER (began 1972, stoped in 1996, i think), who is making military, executive and airline jets projected here and well sold worldwide (Tucano,AMX,Legacy,Phenom, Brasilia, EMB 750, EMB 950,Lineage, etc). There are some Pipers and EMBRAER Pipers certified for ethanol (arrows,senecas), also Cessnas and Beechs. EMBRAER could research on ethanol use in aircrafts, but it moved to turbines and they are imported, so.... I think those planes can only fly over our country, because they cannot be fuelled with AVGAS after being converted to ethanol, and there must not be alchool inside the pumps on the fields out there. They're not "flex". And I know that some certified planes flying here cannot enter USA airspace, but all experimentals homebuilt here can!!! I don't understand FAA and ANAC (our FAA). It's nonsense . I think that the best policy while flying is to be old-line untill some tech is flown safely at least some thousand hours, then we adopt it. That's what happened to our cars, from carburators to fuel injection. And I may confess that a voice hidden behind my ear tells me not to fly an alchool powered plane yet. Let's enjoy the best hi-oct gas while we can, and wait for good surprises in the future. Espuny Still paying about US$ 9.00 an AVGAS gallon ! Taxes... De: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] Em nome de Noel Loveys Enviada em: ter=E7a-feira, 12 de agosto de 2008 22:53 Para: kitfox-list@matronics.com Assunto: RE: Kitfox-List: 91 octane, time to be heard! Espuny: As most planes this far north are not completely modified for the use of ethanol.... Because we have no way of knowing the state of the hydration of the ethanol in our fuel when we get it... because there is no standardization of auto fuel, even without ethanol, I can=92t in good conscience use or advise anyone to use it in their plane. I expect you people are in a slightly different situation than we are in that you are using excess sugar cane to make the ethanol... In the North food producing fields are being switched over to ethanol every day this is resulting in huge increases in the cost of most if not all meats and produce. Don=92t even think of getting any cascades hops to flavour you next brew of beer! Curiosity makes me ask if the flight authority for the planes flying on ethanol extends to Canada and the USA, assuming you had sufficiently large tanks or do you have to use 100LL in those countries? Noel From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Francisco Espuny Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2008 1:53 PM Subject: RES: Kitfox-List: 91 octane, time to be heard! Hi, Noel. In fact ethanol itself is as corrosive as water. And water is the main problem with ethanol cause it absorbs it from the air moisture. Ethanol is not delivered in 100%. It's allways hidrated. And it reacts sometimes with gasoline, resulting in an aldheyd. You're right when you tell us to avoid its use on a system built for gas. But, as I have said before, we have, in my country, lots and lots of certified planes ( Cherokees, Skylanes, Bonanzas...) running on just hidrated ethanol, and flying fine and safely for many years. It's necessary to say that the hole project is intended to the use of alchool, not only the engine. I strongly recommend that you all DO NOT use ethanol added fuel in your birds, unless all parts, including the engine , are certified for this particular use. But we're living the third large oil market shock in history, and history teaches us that something has to be done 'cause fossil fuels will end someday. I'm sure our sons or grandsons will be flying on some bio-fuel, and the technology, in their days, will be as fine for the bios as they are for the oil derivates today. And, while waiting, let's fly just on factory parts recommend fuel and contamination limits. I own a Continental engine, and cannot even think about any ethanol. As I'm looking for an experimental plane and Rotax or Jabiru will be the engine choice, I'm as interested as you all in this subject. So I argued Rotax factory on this subject and I'm waiting for the answer. And that's why I'm in this list. To share experiences. I've been fueling my cars with ethanol or ethanol added gas for decades. Believe-me, it's not for our planes the way they are powered and equiped. Espuny paying about US$ 9.00 in local currency for an AVGAS gallon !!! do not archive De: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] Em nome de Noel Loveys Enviada em: domingo, 10 de agosto de 2008 11:45 Para: kitfox-list@matronics.com Assunto: RE: Kitfox-List: 91 octane, time to be heard! Run the regular unleaded unboxed gasoline... if you notice the engine pinging then consider switching to a higher octane fuel. Generally speaking the line for high octane requirement is with a compression ratio of somewhere around 11:1. I=92ve been called on my dislike of ethanol as fuel in the past and I do tend to use strong language in my opinions on the subject. Fact is no one has been able to show me that ethanol is anywhere near as cost effective as oil. No one has commented either way on the poisonous, ozone layer eating gasses given off when organic oils, including ethanol and bio diesel, are burned. One guy, a farmer I think or the holder of a mortgage on a farm, told me they are now using ethanol to fuel diesel tractors.. Now I wonder how many miles they get to the injection pump. There is no viscosity to ethanol so what lubricates the pumps??? Ethanol is pretty corrosive stuff and makes a pretty good cleaner so I=92m not against using small quantities of it, occasionally, on the ground, to clean out combustion chambers.... but IMHO that alcohol has no place in the air except in business class. As for seeing ethanol in your fuel in Alaska; I doubt you ever will see it except by some accident. As I said the stuff is corrosive and no one who owns a tanker ship really wants the crap in their hold with the possibility of eating the ship out from under them. Of course they could build a distillery in Alaska and ship raw corn or sugar there to make the ethanol on site. What do you figure the chances of that are?? Another point is you guys store your gas for months at a time... in above ground storage facilities...I wonder what ethanol can possibly do to those facilities... Hmmm Noel From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Huntley Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 6:25 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 91 octane, time to be heard! If it is a stock Soob, it ran just fine on regular 87 in the car and should in the plane. Now if you raise the compression, that makes the difference between using reg or 92-92,whatever. Correct me if I am wrong folks. Been there before. Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: lkc@juno.com Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 3:25 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 91 octane, time to be heard! My Soob is a stock NSI EA81 conversion. ____________________________________________________________ Click here to find Medical Transcription Training programs. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron href "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 1:22 PM Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. Atualizado em 10/08/2008 http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. Atualizado em 12/08/2008 ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 07:51:31 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Part of the Kitfox Line for sale From: "Tom Jones" > I assume that this model was not a good seller. > > Since Kitfox aircraft is not building other than the super sport will the Other models be next to go ? Dave, the Kitfox Lite was marketed as an ultralight vehicle, part 103 compliant. It never really caught on in that role. The rest of the current kitfox line seems to be alive and well. -------- Tom Jones Classic IV 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp Ellensburg, WA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198507#198507 ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 08:32:50 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Part of the Kitfox Line for sale From: "JetPilot" dave wrote: > > > Will you be offering a Super sport or another model that is a tail dragger and with STOL performance like the Kitfox IV has given for the past man yearS? > > > Dave The Kitfox 7 Super Sport has been for sale for the past couple of years... It is a tail dragger or tricycle gear, whichever you choose with great STOL performance. I talked to a guy that visited the factory in Idaho recently and he said everything was great. He was so positively impressed with the John, the factory, and the plane that he bought a Kitfox Super Sport kit and is now building it :) Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198512#198512 ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 10:46:53 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Polytone reducer From: gary.algate@sandvik.com Can anybody advise where I can get this reducer in Adelaide, Australia. Alternatively can I use MEK? If so where can I buy this in Adelaide, Australia? This was a lot easier when I lived in Canada. Gary Gary Algate Classic 4 Jab2200A Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 11:35:28 PM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Kitfox-List: RE: Timing gear Lynn, I am not sure the general Kitfox audience is interested in this but ... here I go: > From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt@jps.net] > First a distributor shaft seal wore a groove into one of the > shafts, causing an oil leak that saturated one of the caps, then the > rocker arm bushings went to hell, now the timing gear breaks, causing > me major engine work. I have a slight leak on my starboard distributor shaft seal. I got a new seal but ... since I recently epoxy a new rotor in place, I don't feel in a hurry to remove it in order to change the seal. But I am not sure I understand how it can wear a groove on the shaft; it is a plastic seal, right? Cheers, Michel Verheughe Norway Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... grounded.
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