Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:48 AM - Re: 2 stroke oil - Pennzoil update (dave)
2. 02:48 AM - Re: Little Kitfox Movie (dave)
3. 02:55 AM - Re: Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (dave)
4. 03:01 AM - Re: Lacquer thinners (Larry Huntley)
5. 04:50 AM - 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (fox5flyer)
6. 06:38 AM - Re: Re: 2 stroke oil - Pennzoil update (Rexinator)
7. 07:04 AM - Re: Little Kitfox Movie (Lynn Matteson)
8. 07:04 AM - Re: Lacquer thinners (Lynn Matteson)
9. 07:45 AM - Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (JetPilot)
10. 07:48 AM - Lubrication (jlfernan)
11. 08:29 AM - Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (dave)
12. 08:45 AM - Re: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (Jim_and_Lucy Chuk)
13. 09:02 AM - Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (dave)
14. 09:12 AM - Re: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (Michael Gibbs)
15. 09:18 AM - Re: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (Maurice)
16. 09:18 AM - 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (fox5flyer)
17. 09:38 AM - 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (fox5flyer)
18. 09:47 AM - Re: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (Randy Daughenbaugh)
19. 10:09 AM - RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (Francisco Espuny)
20. 10:22 AM - Re: Re: 2 stroke oil - Pennzoil update (Guy Buchanan)
21. 10:45 AM - Progress report S5 test flying (skyring)
22. 10:49 AM - RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (Francisco Espuny)
23. 11:32 AM - Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (Mnflyer)
24. 12:00 PM - 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (fox5flyer)
25. 01:17 PM - Re: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (Frank Miles)
26. 01:32 PM - Re: Progress report S5 test flying (FlyboyTR)
27. 01:40 PM - Re: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (Lynn Matteson)
28. 02:05 PM - Re: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (Dave)
29. 05:53 PM - Re: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (bjones@dmv.com)
30. 06:09 PM - Re: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (Rick)
31. 06:17 PM - Re: Re: 2 stroke oil - Pennzoil update (Noel Loveys)
32. 06:31 PM - Re: Lubrication (Noel Loveys)
33. 06:34 PM - Re: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (Noel Loveys)
34. 06:41 PM - Re: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (Noel Loveys)
35. 06:48 PM - Re: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (Noel Loveys)
36. 06:50 PM - Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (Noel Loveys)
37. 07:07 PM - Re: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (Noel Loveys)
38. 07:10 PM - Re: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (Frank Miles)
39. 07:19 PM - Re: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (Randy Daughenbaugh)
40. 07:22 PM - Re: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (Frank Miles)
41. 07:34 PM - RES: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (Francisco Espuny)
42. 07:38 PM - Re: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (Noel Loveys)
43. 07:53 PM - Re: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (Noel Loveys)
44. 08:24 PM - Re: Lubrication (hansedj)
45. 08:27 PM - Re: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (Noel Loveys)
46. 11:47 PM - RES: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (Francisco Espuny)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 2 stroke oil - Pennzoil update |
Rex, Good update on oils. I will tell you that I use Bombardier oil XPS mineral
oil that you can buy in bulk or containers from any Ski Doo and Sea Doo shop.
IT is API -TC rated and works excellent. I just changed to a new 582 as
my last one had 500 hours on it and never was apart yet. I took a few pics of
the piston and it looks great if you want to see let me know .
I am planning on changing over to Shell Advance oil which is API-TC rated as well
as most of my local guys already have. I have used this in other planes for
over 25 years now along with Castrol Super 2 stroke oil which again is API-TC
rated. Pennzoil is hard to get in Canada. My Rotaxes have worked flawless
and I contribute alot of that to the use of these oils.
Stay away from oils not rated API-TC -- eg - TCW3 ( outboard oil)
and stay away from synthetic oils.blends unless you are running them 3 or more
times per week. - EVERY WEEK !! I do sell cranks but I rather see the right
oil used and your crank last longer.
Dave
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198695#198695
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Little Kitfox Movie |
Great Movie !! Always love to see some Kitfoxes in action !!
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198696#198696
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
> OK, let me shorten my answer. I don't know.
>
> Mike G.
> N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster
> Phoenix, AZ
Mike, I am just trying to get a handle on your level of experience on the use of
AVGAS in your 912 and how many hours you ran it successfully.
Lead is used to lubricate the valves on the archaric aircraft engines. No argument
about the quality of the octane but 912 UL only needs regular gas. I think
alot just use AVGAS for convenience.
I don't get gummed up carbs like everyone talks about but then again mine don't
wit around long. When storing some gas powered engines over 3 months I use
gas stabilizer and it seems to work.
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198697#198697
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Lacquer thinners |
Sorry Gary.Didn't catch that. Maybe I could take the formulation off the
can and post it. Laquer thinner is a combination of an assortment of
thinners that might be available to you. Would that help? Larry
----- Original Message -----
From: gary.algate@sandvik.com
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 9:48 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Lacquer thinners
Larry - are you in Australia ?
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
20 AM
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
Note that I've changed the Subject line slightly. It's amazing how easily
misinformation can be spread on the Internet. It's so easy for someone who
is a good writer to sit down at their keyboard and write whatever they want
without any basis to it and if they post it to the right places and people,
it can spread like a prairie fire on a dry, windy day and be very difficult
to stop.
I'm really baffled by all this anti-100LL talk. Lubricate valves? Back in
the 20s and 30s or so when engineers like Charles Kettering (Boss Kett) were
trying to coax more HP out of auto engines they found that they could
achieve significantly more power by increasing the compression ratio. The
problem with that was that it caused severe detonation which was destroying
engines. Somewhere along the line they found that by adding lead to the mix
which raised the octane level they could successfully raise the compression
level, thereby increasing HP. Valve lubrication was not the reason it was
developed, IIRC.
As for 100LL destroying or "gumming up" the engine, not true. As I recall,
there was only one engine that was affected by this and that was one of the
versions of the IO540. It was found in that particular engine that when
100LL was used coupled with Shell 100 percent synthetic that the lead
deposits would not stay in suspension and resulted in some bearing problems.
This caused massive lawsuits (expensive repairs), mostly aimed at Shell who
pulled their 100 percent synthetic off the market, and the normal resulting
anecdotal hysteria resulted that follows this sort of thing. Shortly, it
became dangerous to use 100LL in your airplane regardless what engine it had
in it.
Soon, to be on the safe side, some engine manufacturers recommended that
synthetic oil not be used with their engines that used 100LL or to add lead
dispersants. "Not recommended" is not the same as "Prohibited". Just
because they don't recommend it doesn't mean that the fuel is necessarily
bad for the engine.
The Rotax 912 and many other engines were designed from the ground up to run
on unleaded gasoline so 100LL is not necessary. However, this ethanol scare
has people running for other options, mostly 100LL which is about the only
other one available. Is it bad for the engine? I doubt it. Probably the
worst thing is for your wallet. Is ethanol bad for your engine? None of us
know for sure yet whether it is or not, but I suspect that we're going to be
stuck with it.
My opinion, which is worth what you pay for it, is if you feel you need to
spend the extra money on 100LL, go ahead and use it. If you want to use it
exclusively, as a precaution, just don't use it with pure synthetic oil.
Use a blend. Also, be very careful of what you read here on the Internet.
Take all of it with a healthy dose of skepticism and do your own research
before you consider anything as gospel.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 391+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
- Joseph Joubert
>
> Lead is used to lubricate the valves on the archaric aircraft engines.
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 2 stroke oil - Pennzoil update |
Dave,
Thanks. It's good to have choices and your empirical information is
always appreciated, at least by me. This oil subjct is so confused at
times it's difficult to get useful input. Lockwood appears to be a
reliable source and I would say people won't go wrong by following their
advice, but they are a business and want to grow. I haven't asked, but
they might only reccomend oils that they sell because of their
experience and testing that proves the performance. Would they also
reccomend Bombardier labled products? Probably since Bombardier is the
parent company of Rotax, right? There seems to be more choices for a
great lubricant for each application one could ask about and I would
like to ferret out the unbiased truth. I'm just a novice at this oil game.
--
Rex Hefferan
SE Colorado / K-II / 582-C / still waiting repairs
dave wrote:
>
>Rex, Good update on oils. I will tell you that I use Bombardier oil XPS mineral
oil that you can buy in bulk or containers from any Ski Doo and Sea Doo shop.
IT is API -TC rated and works excellent. I just changed to a new 582 as
my last one had 500 hours on it and never was apart yet. I took a few pics of
the piston and it looks great if you want to see let me know .
>
>I am planning on changing over to Shell Advance oil which is API-TC rated as well
as most of my local guys already have. I have used this in other planes
for over 25 years now along with Castrol Super 2 stroke oil which again is API-TC
rated. Pennzoil is hard to get in Canada. My Rotaxes have worked flawless
and I contribute alot of that to the use of these oils.
>
>Stay away from oils not rated API-TC -- eg - TCW3 ( outboard oil)
>and stay away from synthetic oils.blends unless you are running them 3 or more
times per week. - EVERY WEEK !! I do sell cranks but I rather see the right
oil used and your crank last longer.
>
>
>Dave
>
>--------
>Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
>Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
>http://www.cfisher.com/
>Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
>http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
>
>
>
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Little Kitfox Movie |
I just happened to have flown over that dry lake on my trip out to
California. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster
Jabiru 2200
Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink
Floyd..."Learning to Fly")
do not archive
On Aug 15, 2008, at 12:40 AM, rudderdancer wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I thought I would try to give back to the list with this little
> movie. I'm still trying to get used to this lighter, more
> sensitive aircraft. This takes place at
> a local dry lake, El Mirage, here in the high desert of
> California. Edwards AFB is just over some hills from it. It was
> already 100 degrees by the time I took off and the lake bed is at
> around 3,000 ft., so the DA was over 5,000 ft.
> I know when I was looking at and for a Kitfox, I really appreciated
> the videos that some on this list had provided. On take off with
> full flaps, even on this hot high day, was really short by Stinson
> and Cessna standards. I still haven't worked out where the wheels
> are exactly on landing yet. Thanks for
> letting me post it.
>
> web site: http://homepage.mac.com/gaggy/iMovieTheater8.html
>
> Regards,
> Jack ( jhenryhall@mac.com)
>
> --------
> J. Henry Hall
> Kitfox II, 582, Tundra Tires,
> rusty pilot.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198686#198686
>
>
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Lacquer thinners |
That's exactly what I was told to do and did, when it came time to
spray my flaperon hinge brackets. I knew that they would eventually
be attached to the wing and then shot with Polytone, so I did the
Polybrush "tacky", then shot with Polyspray and eventually Polytone.
However, reading (sometimes my worst enemy) the literature, I chose
to shoot larger metal and fiberglas parts with Polyfiber Enamel.
I was wondering what Wayne had to say...thanks for keeping up with it.
One small thought about getting the gallon of Polytone reducer...if
you have the left-over sitting on your shelf, you'll probably never
need to use it, but if you don't have any sitting around....look out
for small accidents, hangar rash, etc...it's a take-off on Murphy's
Law. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster
Jabiru 2200
Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink
Floyd..."Learning to Fly")
On Aug 14, 2008, at 10:06 PM, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote:
>
> Lynn - you are dead right it is for the wheel pants. I have had
> pretty good success in the past with polytone on Fibreglass (even
> though it's not really recommended). I think the biggest problem is
> the bond and in the past I have applied a light primer coat and
> while it's still "just" tacky I applied the Polytone.
>
> Best regards
>
> Gary
>
> By the way -no response yet from Wayne re your questions - He is
> travelling at the moment but he will get back to me.
>
> Regards
>
> Gary
>
> Gary Algate
> Classic 4 Jab 2200A
> Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
>
>
> This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the
> addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of
> this message by persons or entities other than the intended
> recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error,
> kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the
> message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for
> any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may
> arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
>
>
> Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> 15/08/2008 11:22 AM
> Please respond to
> kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
> To
> kitfox-list@matronics.com
> cc
> Subject
> Re: Kitfox-List: Lacquer thinners
>
>
>
> You can get "lacquer thinner" at most hardware stores, but like the
> one poster said make sure of what it is (or something like that). I
> don't know what that means except to be sure you read the label. I
> figured that lacquer thinner was lacquer thinner, but maybe they are
> not all created equally. Sorry I can't be more helpful, Gary. Maybe
> you should just bite the bullet and get that one gallon that Aviaquip
> offered. As far as my own experience is concerned, the stuff lasts
> for a long time in the tightly-sealed can, so it won't go to waste.
> The Polytone reducer is formulated for application in either cooler
> or warmer temperatures, and comes in different part numbers depending
> on the temperature of the air when it is applied.
>
> A question: are you using the Polytone to paint your wheels pants? Is
> that why you're looking for Polytone reducer? If so, that's the wrong
> stuff to use on hard surfaces, I was told. I was just putting 2 and 2
> together, and thought you might be painting your wheel pants...if
> not, I'll keep quiet. : )
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster
> Jabiru 2200
> Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink
> Floyd..."Learning to Fly")
> do not archive
>
>
> On Aug 14, 2008, at 8:39 PM, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote:
>
> >
> > can somebody give me an explanation of what "lacquer thinners" are
> > - I know if I ask the guy at the auto shop here he probably won't
> > know what I mean and I know most of you guys in the USC will be
> > shutting down soon .
> >
> > I am assuming it is the thinners for auto paint (not enamel or
> > Urethane) ??
> >
> > Friday here so I want to get it for the weekend.
> >
> > regards
> >
> > Gary
> >
> >
> >
> > Gary Algate
> > Classic 4 Jab2200A
> > Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
> >
> >
> > This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the
> > addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of
> > this message by persons or entities other than the intended
> > recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error,
> > kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the
> > message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for
> > any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may
> > arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. _-
> > www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List _-
> > www.matronics.com/contribution _-
> > ===========================================================
>
>
> -
> -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
> www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List _-
> www.matronics.com/contribution _-
> ===========================================================
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
Fox5Flyer,
Despite your well written, and very elegant article, you are just plain wrong Joseph
whne you say
" As for 100LL destroying or "gumming up" the engine, not true. "
You are mixing up your facts between certified aircraft engines which need the
lead in 100LL and Rotax 912 engines which are harmed by lead. The Rotax 912 was
designed for unleaded fuel, and it is far better to run unleaded gas in it.
The Rotax 912 will tolerate 100 LL, but the maintenance schedule is doubled, oil
changes and spark plugs have to be changed twice as often. Also the synthetic
oil which is vastly superior to dinosaur oil is can not be used in the Rotax
when 100LL is used. There was also a service letter about lead buildup causing
spalling on the gears due to lead buildup. These are not facts that someone
is posting as " Misinformation ", this comes straight from the Rotax maintenance
manual.
A friend of mine has over 3000 hours operating Rotax 912-s, and he changes his
oil to non synthetic and uses 100LL for cross country, as there is no other option.
He reports hard lead deposits in his oil tank after using 100 LL for 50
hours or so. It is well known that 100LL will form nasty lead deposits in the
Rotax 912 series engines. Synthetic oil is vastly superior to non synthetic,
having to use non synthetic oil will shorten the life of the Rotax 912 over
time.
Click the following link to Read the 100LL comments from Rotax Service.com :
http://www.rotaxservice.com/rotax_tips/rotax_feed4.htm
There are mountains of evidence out there documenting the problems with 100 LL
and the rotax 912 engines. This is not paranoia or something someone made up,
it is very real.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198723#198723
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Looked around but can't find an answer. Getting to the point where I'll be attaching
big parts and have a question on lube. Which is the preferred type/brand
for areas like the elevator pivots?
--------
Jorge Fernandez
Supersport
Just starting!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198724#198724
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
Deke & Mike ,
2 great informative posts.
100 LL gumming up fuel systems ? No i think that it has been used to NOT gum
up fuel systems. I rarely get any issues with gumming of fuel systems.
As far as 100 LL, I think it might be more consistent in the brewing of it than
MOGAS . That being said Mogas or marina gas works for me pretty decent.
And Deke >>
> Also, be very careful of what you read here on the Internet.
> Take all of it with a healthy dose of skepticism and do your own research
> before you consider anything as gospel.
This is why i respond with movies to show you that I put behind what i say with
a video. As far as Ethanol gas ---- I fly 250 to 300 a year and all with ethanol
gas or what ever the heck is at the pumps. AVGAS I think i burned 4 gals
a few years ago cause a guy wanted to dump a gerry cans he had in his floats
so I just ran it through a funnel and flew away :)
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198727#198727
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
A couple of months ago=2C I bought a wrecked Rans for the 912 engine that w
as on it. The hour meter read 86 hrs. I pulled the engine apart to have a
look in side=2C as it had sat for 6 years. All looked fine inside=2C but
there was a buildup in the combustion chambers (head and top of piston) of
a yellowish compound. It was perhaps 1/32" thick. When I talked to the te
ch advisor at Leading Edge Air Foils=2C he said it was lead buildup from ru
nning avgas. On the pluss side for the avgas though=2C one wing tank had a
bout 2 1/2 gallons of avgas in it and to get rid of it=2C I ran it through
my mower with no problem. Jim Chuk Kitfox 4 building=2C Avids B and MK IV
flying=2C MN> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/o
r fiction?> From: orcabonita@hotmail.com> Date: Fri=2C 15 Aug 2008 07:44:16
"JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>> > Fox5Flyer=2C> > Despite your well w
ritten=2C and very elegant article=2C you are just plain wrong Joseph whne
you say> > " As for 100LL destroying or "gumming up" the engine=2C not true
. "> > You are mixing up your facts between certified aircraft engines whic
h need the lead in 100LL and Rotax 912 engines which are harmed by lead. Th
e Rotax 912 was designed for unleaded fuel=2C and it is far better to run u
nleaded gas in it. > > The Rotax 912 will tolerate 100 LL=2C but the mainte
nance schedule is doubled=2C oil changes and spark plugs have to be changed
twice as often. Also the synthetic oil which is vastly superior to dinosau
r oil is can not be used in the Rotax when 100LL is used. There was also a
service letter about lead buildup causing spalling on the gears due to lead
buildup. These are not facts that someone is posting as " Misinformation "
=2C this comes straight from the Rotax maintenance manual.> > A friend of m
ine has over 3000 hours operating Rotax 912-s=2C and he changes his oil to
non synthetic and uses 100LL for cross country=2C as there is no other opti
on. He reports hard lead deposits in his oil tank after using 100 LL for 50
hours or so. It is well known that 100LL will form nasty lead deposits in
the Rotax 912 series engines. Synthetic oil is vastly superior to non synth
etic=2C having to use non synthetic oil will shorten the life of the Rotax
912 over time.> > Click the following link to Read the 100LL comments from
Rotax Service.com :> > http://www.rotaxservice.com/rotax_tips/rotax_feed4.h
tm> > There are mountains of evidence out there documenting the problems wi
th 100 LL and the rotax 912 engines. This is not paranoia or something some
one made up=2C it is very real.> > Mike> > --------> "=3BNO FEAR"
=3B - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!> > K
olb MK-III Xtra=2C 912-S> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://fo
==> > >
_________________________________________________________________
Get ideas on sharing photos from people like you. Find new ways to share.
http://www.windowslive.com/explore/photogallery/posts?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_P
hoto_Gallery_082008
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
> Lubricate valves? Back in
> the 20s and 30s or so when engineers like Charles Kettering (Boss Kett) were
> trying to coax more HP out of auto engines they found that they could
> achieve significantly more power by increasing the compression ratio. The
> problem with that was that it caused severe detonation which was destroying
> engines. Somewhere along the line they found that by adding lead to the mix
> which raised the octane level they could successfully raise the compression
> level, thereby increasing HP. Valve lubrication was not the reason it was
> developed, IIRC.
>
Deke, you are right as for the octane boost BUT lead does help lubricate the vavles.
Rotax engine do not need the lubriction. If you recall the older cars
did the same thing until the mid to late 70s when unleaed gas was brought into
full production. Th older engines we used to get hardened vavle seats inserted
into the heads and that solved the issue of running no lead gas. The next
generation of engines came with different heads/valve seats.
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198732#198732
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
Dave sez:
>Mike, I am just trying to get a handle on your level of experience
>on the use of AVGAS in your 912 and how many hours you ran it
>successfully.
I get that, Dave. I still don't know.
Jim sez:
>...I bought a wrecked Rans for the 912 engine...The hour meter read
>86 hrs. I pulled the engine apart to have a look in side...All
>looked fine inside, but there was a buildup in the combustion
>chambers...it was lead buildup from running avgas.
Which is why you add a lead-scavenging agent such as TCP when you run
leaded fuel in them. It sounds like your engine did not get such
treatment.
Mike sez:
>A friend of mine has over 3000 hours operating Rotax 912-s, and he
>changes his oil to non synthetic and uses 100LL for cross country,
>as there is no other option. He reports hard lead deposits in his
>oil tank after using 100 LL for 50 hours or so.
My engine had a lot more than 50 hours on it and I never had any
deposits in my oil tank. I always used a scavenging agent when
fueling up, of course.
Dave sez:
>This is why i respond with movies to show you that I put behind what
>i say with a video.
Your interest in video is well-documented, Dave. I once saw a movie
with a T-Rex terrorizing San Diego ("The Lost World: Jurassic Park")
and yet when I was in southern California last, they had rebuilt the
city and you couldn't even tell it had been destroyed by dinosaurs!
But seriously folks, what has this got to do with leaded fuels? Do
you have a movie showing the deleterious effects of lead on 912s?
Mike G.
N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster
Phoenix, AZ
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
Don, Thank you. My step grandson is really into animals and knows more
about animals than anyone else I have ever met, including adults. He
recognized some of them before seeing the name and really enjoyed it.
He had me send your E-mail to his computer.
Maurice
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim_and_Lucy Chuk
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 8:44 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or
fiction?
A couple of months ago, I bought a wrecked Rans for the 912 engine
that was on it. The hour meter read 86 hrs. I pulled the engine apart
to have a look in side, as it had sat for 6 years. All looked fine
inside, but there was a buildup in the combustion chambers (head and top
of piston) of a yellowish compound. It was perhaps 1/32" thick. When I
talked to the tech advisor at Leading Edge Air Foils, he said it was
lead buildup from running avgas. On the pluss side for the avgas
though, one wing tank had about 2 1/2 gallons of avgas in it and to get
rid of it, I ran it through my mower with no problem. Jim Chuk Kitfox
4 building, Avids B and MK IV flying, MN
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or
fiction?
> From: orcabonita@hotmail.com
> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 07:44:16 -0700
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
<orcabonita@hotmail.com>
>
> Fox5Flyer,
>
> Despite your well written, and very elegant article, you are just
plain wrong Joseph whne you say
>
> " As for 100LL destroying or "gumming up" the engine, not true. "
>
> You are mixing up your facts between certified aircraft engines
which need the lead in 100LL and Rotax 912 engines which are harmed by
lead. The Rotax 912 was designed for unleaded fuel, and it is far better
to run unleaded gas in it.
>
> The Rotax 912 will tolerate 100 LL, but the maintenance schedule is
doubled, oil changes and spark plugs have to be changed twice as often.
Also the synthetic oil which is vastly superior to dinosaur oil is can
not be used in the Rotax when 100LL is used. There was also a service
letter about lead buildup causing spalling on the gears due to lead
buildup. These are not facts that someone is posting as " Misinformation
", this comes straight from the Rotax maintenance manual.
>
> A friend of mine has over 3000 hours operating Rotax 912-s, and he
changes his oil to non synthetic and uses 100LL for cross country, as
there is no other option. He reports hard lead deposits in his oil tank
after using 100 LL for 50 hours or so. It is well known that 100LL will
form nasty lead deposits in the Rotax 912 series engines. Synthetic oil
is vastly superior to non synthetic, having to use non synthetic oil
will shorten the life of the Rotax 912 over time.
>
> Click the following link to Read the 100LL comments from Rotax
Service.com :
>
> http://www.rotaxservice.com/rotax_tips/rotax_feed4.htm
>
> There are mountains of evidence out there documenting the problems
with 100 LL and the rotax 912 engines. This is not paranoia or something
someone made up, it is very real.
>
> Mike
>
> --------
> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as
you could have !!!
>
> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198723#198723
>
>
>
======================
&g
>
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Get ideas on sharing photos from people like you. Find new ways to
share. Get Ideas Here!
Message 16
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
Mike, when you jump in, you usually do so with both barrels blasting! If
you read my message again, that I was trying to clear up the
misunderstanding that lead is not in the fuel to lubricate the valves, but
to increase the octane rating. You'll note that when I was referring to
whether or not 100LL would damage an engine, I said it was "my opinion" and
only that, which means it should not be taken as fact.
However, I'm not mixing up anything. What I read below from you is pretty
much all stated as fact. No opinions that I can see. What I read is just
more of the same anecdotal info that I see nearly every day, but is
presented as fact when all one has to do is quote a web link to a self
serving dealer or regurgitate what is heard from hangar talk. The vendor
link, Aeropropulsion Technologies, a fancy name for a dealer, even makes
the statement that you must use only Rotax oil filters because there is no
other substitute or equivalent. Equivalent? Come on... In other words,
buy it from us or your engine will be destroyed!
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 391+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
- Joseph Joubert
----- Original Message -----
From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 10:44 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
>
> Fox5Flyer,
>
> Despite your well written, and very elegant article, you are just plain
> wrong Joseph whne you say
>
> " As for 100LL destroying or "gumming up" the engine, not true. "
>
> You are mixing up your facts between certified aircraft engines which need
> the lead in 100LL and Rotax 912 engines which are harmed by lead. The
> Rotax 912 was designed for unleaded fuel, and it is far better to run
> unleaded gas in it.
>
> The Rotax 912 will tolerate 100 LL, but the maintenance schedule is
> doubled, oil changes and spark plugs have to be changed twice as often.
> Also the synthetic oil which is vastly superior to dinosaur oil is can not
> be used in the Rotax when 100LL is used. There was also a service letter
> about lead buildup causing spalling on the gears due to lead buildup.
> These are not facts that someone is posting as " Misinformation ", this
> comes straight from the Rotax maintenance manual.
>
> A friend of mine has over 3000 hours operating Rotax 912-s, and he changes
> his oil to non synthetic and uses 100LL for cross country, as there is no
> other option. He reports hard lead deposits in his oil tank after using
> 100 LL for 50 hours or so. It is well known that 100LL will form nasty
> lead deposits in the Rotax 912 series engines. Synthetic oil is vastly
> superior to non synthetic, having to use non synthetic oil will shorten
> the life of the Rotax 912 over time.
>
> Click the following link to Read the 100LL comments from Rotax Service.com
> :
>
> http://www.rotaxservice.com/rotax_tips/rotax_feed4.htm
>
> There are mountains of evidence out there documenting the problems with
> 100 LL and the rotax 912 engines. This is not paranoia or something
> someone made up, it is very real.
>
> Mike
>
> --------
> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you
> could have !!!
>
> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198723#198723
>
>
>
Message 17
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
Fair enough, Dave. I tend to agree with you on what you stated in a
previous message about running autogas. Not a real big deal, IMO. I ran my
582 pretty much the same as you and it went over 500 hours before being
overhauled, yet still looked good inside. I do take exception when I read
statements referring to fuel like "It's no good after it sits in the can for
3 weeks". No, I'm not quoting you. Just something I read recently.
If you read my last sentence below, I stated that "Valve lubrication was not
the reason it was
developed, IIRC." I didn't say that it doesn't lubricate valves.
Personally, I don't know that it does or doesn't help the valves, but I can
say that there are a lot of very old certified A65s, A85s, O200s, etc
running around out there just fine on unleaded mogas. I read somewhere that
leaded gas is only necessary for the breakin period, but even that was an
opinion and I didn't give it a lot of credence because it wasn't backed up
with any data. Again, only my opinion.
Staying tuned...
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 391+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
- Joseph Joubert
----- Original Message -----
From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 12:01 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
>
>
>> Lubricate valves? Back in
>> the 20s and 30s or so when engineers like Charles Kettering (Boss Kett)
>> were
>> trying to coax more HP out of auto engines they found that they could
>> achieve significantly more power by increasing the compression ratio. The
>> problem with that was that it caused severe detonation which was
>> destroying
>> engines. Somewhere along the line they found that by adding lead to the
>> mix
>> which raised the octane level they could successfully raise the
>> compression
>> level, thereby increasing HP. Valve lubrication was not the reason it was
>> developed, IIRC.
>>
>
>
> Deke, you are right as for the octane boost BUT lead does help lubricate
> the vavles. Rotax engine do not need the lubriction. If you recall the
> older cars did the same thing until the mid to late 70s when unleaed gas
> was brought into full production. Th older engines we used to get
> hardened vavle seats inserted into the heads and that solved the issue of
> running no lead gas. The next generation of engines came with different
> heads/valve seats.
>
> --------
> Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
> Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
> http://www.cfisher.com/
> Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
> http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198732#198732
>
>
>
Message 18
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
Boy,
It is getting really good now.
Randy
Do Not archive!
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Maurice
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 10:27 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
Don, Thank you. My step grandson is really into animals and knows more
about animals than anyone else I have ever met, including adults. He
recognized some of them before seeing the name and really enjoyed it. He
had me send your E-mail to his computer.
Maurice
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim_and_Lucy Chuk <mailto:thesupe@hotmail.com>
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 8:44 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
A couple of months ago, I bought a wrecked Rans for the 912 engine that was
on it. The hour meter read 86 hrs. I pulled the engine apart to have a
look in side, as it had sat for 6 years. All looked fine inside, but there
was a buildup in the combustion chambers (head and top of piston) of a
yellowish compound. It was perhaps 1/32" thick. When I talked to the tech
advisor at Leading Edge Air Foils, he said it was lead buildup from running
avgas. On the pluss side for the avgas though, one wing tank had about 2
1/2 gallons of avgas in it and to get rid of it, I ran it through my mower
with no problem. Jim Chuk Kitfox 4 building, Avids B and MK IV flying, MN
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
> From: orcabonita@hotmail.com
> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 07:44:16 -0700
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
>
> Fox5Flyer,
>
> Despite your well written, and very elegant article, you are just plain
wrong Joseph whne you say
>
> " As for 100LL destroying or "gumming up" the engine, not true. "
>
> You are mixing up your facts between certified aircraft engines which need
the lead in 100LL and Rotax 912 engines which are harmed by lead. The Rotax
912 was designed for unleaded fuel, and it is far better to run unleaded gas
in it.
>
> The Rotax 912 will tolerate 100 LL, but the maintenance schedule is
doubled, oil changes and spark plugs have to be changed twice as often. Also
the synthetic oil which is vastly superior to dinosaur oil is can not be
used in the Rotax when 100LL is used. There was also a service letter about
lead buildup causing spalling on the gears due to lead buildup. These are
not facts that someone is posting as " Misinformation ", this comes straight
from the Rotax maintenance manual.
>
> A friend of mine has over 3000 hours operating Rotax 912-s, and he changes
his oil to non synthetic and uses 100LL for cross country, as there is no
other option. He reports hard lead deposits in his oil tank after using 100
LL for 50 hours or so. It is well known that 100LL will form nasty lead
deposits in the Rotax 912 series engines. Synthetic oil is vastly superior
to non synthetic, having to use non synthetic oil will shorten the life of
the Rotax 912 over time.
>
> Click the following link to Read the 100LL comments from Rotax Service.com
:
>
> http://www.rotaxservice.com/rotax_tips/rotax_feed4.htm
>
> There are mountains of evidence out there documenting the problems with
100 LL and the rotax 912 engines. This is not paranoia or something someone
made up, it is very real.
>
> Mike
>
> --------
> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you
could have !!!
>
> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198723#198723
>
>
>
======================
&g
>
>
>
_____
Get ideas on sharing photos from people like you. Find new ways to share.
Get Ideas Here!
<http://www.windowslive.com/explore/photogallery/posts?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Pho
to_Gallery_082008>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref
"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 19
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
Wise words...
And we may have disponibility of AVGAS for a hole generation. Or will they
wreck every piston Cessna, Piper and Beech flying around the world?
-----Mensagem original-----
De: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] Em nome de fox5flyer
Enviada em: sexta-feira, 15 de agosto de 2008 08:49
Para: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Assunto: Kitfox-List: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
Note that I've changed the Subject line slightly. It's amazing how easily
misinformation can be spread on the Internet. It's so easy for someone who
is a good writer to sit down at their keyboard and write whatever they want
without any basis to it and if they post it to the right places and people,
it can spread like a prairie fire on a dry, windy day and be very difficult
to stop.
I'm really baffled by all this anti-100LL talk. Lubricate valves? Back in
the 20s and 30s or so when engineers like Charles Kettering (Boss Kett) were
trying to coax more HP out of auto engines they found that they could
achieve significantly more power by increasing the compression ratio. The
problem with that was that it caused severe detonation which was destroying
engines. Somewhere along the line they found that by adding lead to the mix
which raised the octane level they could successfully raise the compression
level, thereby increasing HP. Valve lubrication was not the reason it was
developed, IIRC.
As for 100LL destroying or "gumming up" the engine, not true. As I recall,
there was only one engine that was affected by this and that was one of the
versions of the IO540. It was found in that particular engine that when
100LL was used coupled with Shell 100 percent synthetic that the lead
deposits would not stay in suspension and resulted in some bearing problems.
This caused massive lawsuits (expensive repairs), mostly aimed at Shell who
pulled their 100 percent synthetic off the market, and the normal resulting
anecdotal hysteria resulted that follows this sort of thing. Shortly, it
became dangerous to use 100LL in your airplane regardless what engine it had
in it.
Soon, to be on the safe side, some engine manufacturers recommended that
synthetic oil not be used with their engines that used 100LL or to add lead
dispersants. "Not recommended" is not the same as "Prohibited". Just
because they don't recommend it doesn't mean that the fuel is necessarily
bad for the engine.
The Rotax 912 and many other engines were designed from the ground up to run
on unleaded gasoline so 100LL is not necessary. However, this ethanol scare
has people running for other options, mostly 100LL which is about the only
other one available. Is it bad for the engine? I doubt it. Probably the
worst thing is for your wallet. Is ethanol bad for your engine? None of us
know for sure yet whether it is or not, but I suspect that we're going to be
stuck with it.
My opinion, which is worth what you pay for it, is if you feel you need to
spend the extra money on 100LL, go ahead and use it. If you want to use it
exclusively, as a precaution, just don't use it with pure synthetic oil.
Use a blend. Also, be very careful of what you read here on the Internet.
Take all of it with a healthy dose of skepticism and do your own research
before you consider anything as gospel.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 391+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
- Joseph Joubert
>
> Lead is used to lubricate the valves on the archaric aircraft engines.
Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra.
Atualizado em 15/08/2008
Message 20
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 2 stroke oil - Pennzoil update |
At 02:48 AM 8/15/2008, you wrote:
>I am planning on changing over to Shell Advance oil which is API-TC
>rated as well as most of my local guys already have.
Dave,
Is this the new Shell oil Rex was talking about?
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 21
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Progress report S5 test flying |
Just want to say that test flying of the S5 (912S - fixed pitch) is going fine
and that a number of tips from the list have helped. I asked for advice re directional
sensitivity on bitumen and based on that advice, loosened the the tension
on the tailwheel steering spring and reduced tyre pressure. Seems to have
helped and now after 7 landings, all on tarmac, I'm getting the hang of it.
Performance is great with 1,000 fpm and about 90 kt cruise at about 75%. None of
this calibrated yet but it will be over the next six months and 50 hours of
test flying.
A problem I had was the low fuel warning light coming on - the light sensitive
type. The header tanks was always full after landing so eventually, after reading
the archives, I covered the header in black plastic and this stopped the low
fuel warning coming on. My next task is to empty the tank to ensure that I
haven't actually stopped it from performing the function it is intended for.
I've also had wildly varying temps and pressures for oil and coolant and traced
it to bad electrical connections.
The plane is wonderful and all that I had hoped for. Can't get this grin off..
Michel wrote..
"Incidentally, I just went flying a few touch and go, today, with my son as the
PIC. It was nice to be in the air again, even as a passenger. "
Great to hear that you are back in the air Michel. An example to us all. One day
this Kitfox may fly north and if so it wil be dropping in on you.
Kerry.
Kitfox builders helper.
:D :D
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198746#198746
Message 22
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
The discussion on ethanol moved to 100 LL because there are no intermediate
options on the orizon.
Didn't this begin with someone inviting us to force the oil companies to
keep delivering pure unleaded gas?
Sorry, if I'm wrong.
Well, about that information on C65 runing on autogas, I have to say that my
Continental cannot even feel the smell of alchool. It runs as the gears were
square, and spits water. The same gas inside my car tank was fine. I tried
once and will never do that to my baby again.
Maybe our engines are like us : some can bear more GL degrees inside
beverage than other :)
do not archive
-----Mensagem original-----
De: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] Em nome de fox5flyer
Enviada em: sexta-feira, 15 de agosto de 2008 13:35
Para: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Assunto: Kitfox-List: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
Fair enough, Dave. I tend to agree with you on what you stated in a
previous message about running autogas. Not a real big deal, IMO. I ran my
582 pretty much the same as you and it went over 500 hours before being
overhauled, yet still looked good inside. I do take exception when I read
statements referring to fuel like "It's no good after it sits in the can for
3 weeks". No, I'm not quoting you. Just something I read recently.
If you read my last sentence below, I stated that "Valve lubrication was not
the reason it was
developed, IIRC." I didn't say that it doesn't lubricate valves.
Personally, I don't know that it does or doesn't help the valves, but I can
say that there are a lot of very old certified A65s, A85s, O200s, etc
running around out there just fine on unleaded mogas. I read somewhere that
leaded gas is only necessary for the breakin period, but even that was an
opinion and I didn't give it a lot of credence because it wasn't backed up
with any data. Again, only my opinion.
Staying tuned...
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 391+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
- Joseph Joubert
----- Original Message -----
From: "dave" <dave@cfisher.com>
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 12:01 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
>
>
>> Lubricate valves? Back in
>> the 20s and 30s or so when engineers like Charles Kettering (Boss Kett)
>> were
>> trying to coax more HP out of auto engines they found that they could
>> achieve significantly more power by increasing the compression ratio. The
>> problem with that was that it caused severe detonation which was
>> destroying
>> engines. Somewhere along the line they found that by adding lead to the
>> mix
>> which raised the octane level they could successfully raise the
>> compression
>> level, thereby increasing HP. Valve lubrication was not the reason it was
>> developed, IIRC.
>>
>
>
> Deke, you are right as for the octane boost BUT lead does help lubricate
> the vavles. Rotax engine do not need the lubriction. If you recall the
> older cars did the same thing until the mid to late 70s when unleaed gas
> was brought into full production. Th older engines we used to get
> hardened vavle seats inserted into the heads and that solved the issue of
> running no lead gas. The next generation of engines came with different
> heads/valve seats.
>
> --------
> Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
> Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
> http://www.cfisher.com/
> Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
> http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198732#198732
>
>
>
Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra.
Atualizado em 15/08/2008
Message 23
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
Hi Joe you are right on with your post about Lead, but one thing wrong oil company
Shell never mfg a full synthetic oil it was Mobil with their Mobil 1 that
had the problems and was sued and the Mobil aviation oil was / is history. Aeroshell,s
15W-50 is a para-synthetic and is an excellent oil and takes care of
lead very well.
I burned 1/3 100LL in my 582 for over 200 hrs and it was running perfectly when
I removed it at 297 hrs. I'd never run ethanol in my aircraft engines.
--------
GB
MNFlyer
Flying a HKS Kitfox III
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198755#198755
Message 24
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
I think you meant Deke. I don't have a clue who Joe is, but you are right.
It wasn't Shell, but Mobil who was sued. Thanks for pointing that out.
Deke
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mnflyer" <gbsb2002@yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 2:31 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
>
> Hi Joe you are right on with your post about Lead, but one thing wrong oil
> company Shell never mfg a full synthetic oil it was Mobil with their Mobil
> 1 that had the problems and was sued and the Mobil aviation oil was / is
> history. Aeroshell,s 15W-50 is a para-synthetic and is an excellent oil
> and takes care of lead very well.
> I burned 1/3 100LL in my 582 for over 200 hrs and it was running perfectly
> when I removed it at 297 hrs. I'd never run ethanol in my aircraft
> engines.
>
> --------
> GB
> MNFlyer
> Flying a HKS Kitfox III
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198755#198755
>
>
>
Message 25
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
One sez "don't burn 100LL" another "Don't burn fuel with ethanol". Another
"Only burn pure mogas". The truth of the matter is that in many cases we no
longer have a choice. It's either 100LL, ethanol laced fuel or park it!!
There is another alternative but not likely to come about unless we get
someone with a bigger stick than we have. Get the fuel distributors to stock
some high octane fuel mogas without ethanol. In most states they, the
distributors, can do this but they WON'T because of need to put in
additional and separate storage capacities. It's all a matter of $$ and we
don't have the clout! Until the subsidies for ethanol expire or are removed,
we are screwed!
Frank Miles
Clarkston, Washington
K-III w/ 582
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mnflyer
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 11:31 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
Hi Joe you are right on with your post about Lead, but one thing wrong oil
company Shell never mfg a full synthetic oil it was Mobil with their Mobil 1
that had the problems and was sued and the Mobil aviation oil was / is
history. Aeroshell,s 15W-50 is a para-synthetic and is an excellent oil and
takes care of lead very well.
I burned 1/3 100LL in my 582 for over 200 hrs and it was running perfectly
when I removed it at 297 hrs. I'd never run ethanol in my aircraft engines.
--------
GB
MNFlyer
Flying a HKS Kitfox III
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198755#198755
Message 26
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Progress report S5 test flying |
Congratulations on the successful flight. You will enjoy your 5!
Travis :D
--------
Travis Rayner
Mobile, AL
Skystar Vixen, N-789DF
Continental IO-240, Prince P-Tip Prop
ADI-II Autopilot
AnyWhereMap Navigation with weather
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198785#198785
Message 27
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
Quoting Ben Visser of General Aviation News, Mar. 21, 2008:
(not the whole article..just bits and pieces)
"TEL was not invented to solve a valve problem in engines"
"Once leaded fuels became universally available, automotive and
aircraft engine manufacturers started to use only leaded fuels in the
development programs for new engines. They found that the lead acted
as a cushion for the exhaust valve and seat interface. As they
increased the temperatures and pressures in the cylinders, the lead
protected the exhaust valves seats."
"Then in the early 1970's, the automotive industry changed from
leaded fuels to unleaded fuels. To eliminate the valve recession
problem caused by the loss of the lead's "cushioning" effect on
exhaust valve seats, the automotive industry started induction
hardening all of the seats. The aviation industry has never had to
make that change."
end of quoted material************
************************************
Ben Visser is an aviation fuels and lubricants expert who spent 33
years with Shell Oil. He has been a private pilot since 1985. You can
contact him at Visser@GeneralAviationNews.com
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster
Jabiru 2200
Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink
Floyd..."Learning to Fly")
do not archive
Message 28
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
Not sure about that Frank. While the whole silly ethanol thing has not hit
here yet, I'm lead to believe that all distributors would actually have
Ethanol free fuel in any case because the booze must be added to the fuel at
the closest point to sale possible. It isn't added at the refinery. I expect
this fuelishness will pass eventually unless a new ethanol technology is
created because it doesn't save fuel, it just makes midwest (corn market
states) republicans re-electable.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Miles" <f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net>
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 5:17 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or
fiction?
> <f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net>
>
> One sez "don't burn 100LL" another "Don't burn fuel with ethanol". Another
> "Only burn pure mogas". The truth of the matter is that in many cases we
> no
> longer have a choice. It's either 100LL, ethanol laced fuel or park it!!
> There is another alternative but not likely to come about unless we get
> someone with a bigger stick than we have. Get the fuel distributors to
> stock
> some high octane fuel mogas without ethanol. In most states they, the
> distributors, can do this but they WON'T because of need to put in
> additional and separate storage capacities. It's all a matter of $$ and we
> don't have the clout! Until the subsidies for ethanol expire or are
> removed,
> we are screwed!
>
> Frank Miles
> Clarkston, Washington
> K-III w/ 582
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mnflyer
> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 11:31 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
>
>
> Hi Joe you are right on with your post about Lead, but one thing wrong oil
> company Shell never mfg a full synthetic oil it was Mobil with their Mobil
> 1
> that had the problems and was sued and the Mobil aviation oil was / is
> history. Aeroshell,s 15W-50 is a para-synthetic and is an excellent oil
> and
> takes care of lead very well.
> I burned 1/3 100LL in my 582 for over 200 hrs and it was running perfectly
> when I removed it at 297 hrs. I'd never run ethanol in my aircraft
> engines.
>
> --------
> GB
> MNFlyer
> Flying a HKS Kitfox III
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198755#198755
>
>
>
Message 29
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
What are the reasons, other than inconvenience, not to buy premium auto gas in
5 gallon containers, pouring a can full into a larger funnel bottom container
that has a flexible clear tube and valve at the bottom, adding a gallon of
water, shake, let the alcohol and water settleout, drain off the settleout, and
then drain the remaing straight gas back into the original 5 gallon container.
Multiple technical folks who deal with ethanol blended gas for the big general
aviation organizations as well as a couple of scientists who work in the fuel
and additive business indicate that if done properly this works although the
residual gas will have 3 to 5 octane less than the original premium auto fuel
with 10 percent ethanol.
None could officially recommend this process on behalf of their organization
because there is an obvious environmental concern regarding disposal of the
settleout, and the inevitability of a law suite against their organization if
someone does not do it carefully and crashes.
I bet many if not most of us routinely fuel our 912s and 582s by 5 gallon can
anyway.
If we need the higher octane found in the original premium auto gas, we can add
a little 100LL to boost octane without worrying about lead build up in our
engines or in our engine oil from use of straight 100LL.
I know folks are doing this and some have talked about it on this web site. So
back to the original question. Are there one or more contraindications from a
fuel science or engine perspective? And if so what are the contraindications
and how significant are they? Any technical types care to chime in?
Thanks
Kitfox N154K & PA 39 turbo N626NR
Bjones@dmv.com
443-480-1023
Quoting Frank Miles <f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net>:
in my engine oil.
> <f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net>
>
> One sez "don't burn 100LL" another "Don't burn fuel with ethanol". Another
> "Only burn pure mogas". The truth of the matter is that in many cases we no
> longer have a choice. It's either 100LL, ethanol laced fuel or park it!!
> There is another alternative but not likely to come about unless we get
> someone with a bigger stick than we have. Get the fuel distributors to stock
> some high octane fuel mogas without ethanol. In most states they, the
> distributors, can do this but they WON'T because of need to put in
> additional and separate storage capacities. It's all a matter of $$ and we
> don't have the clout! Until the subsidies for ethanol expire or are removed,
> we are screwed!
>
> Frank Miles
> Clarkston, Washington
> K-III w/ 582
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mnflyer
> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 11:31 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
>
>
> Hi Joe you are right on with your post about Lead, but one thing wrong oil
> company Shell never mfg a full synthetic oil it was Mobil with their Mobil 1
> that had the problems and was sued and the Mobil aviation oil was / is
> history. Aeroshell,s 15W-50 is a para-synthetic and is an excellent oil and
> takes care of lead very well.
> I burned 1/3 100LL in my 582 for over 200 hrs and it was running perfectly
> when I removed it at 297 hrs. I'd never run ethanol in my aircraft engines.
>
> --------
> GB
> MNFlyer
> Flying a HKS Kitfox III
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198755#198755
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using Delmarva Online's Webmail.
http://www.delmarvaonline.com/
Message 30
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
If you are concerned about water, just pour it through funnel buddy. ACS
sells them. They let the fuel through and will not let the water pass.
But really if you fly a lot it all becomes a major PITA not just to taxi
up to the pumps.
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
bjones@dmv.com
Sent: 2008-08-15 17:53
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or
fiction?
What are the reasons, other than inconvenience, ......
Message 31
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 2 stroke oil - Pennzoil update |
Funny thing about oil... I think some people have more loyalty to the oil
the use in their 582 than they do to their wives :-)... some are even more
willing to change wives than oil.
All that aside I tend to go by the Bombardier operators manual... stick
with API-TC spec. I assume that the Bombardier XPS mineral oil meets their
own specifications.... and bought in bulk it is affordable. As Dave has
said finding Penz two-stroke air cooled north of 49,40' is next to
impossible.
Noel Loveys
AME Intern, RPP
Kitfox III-A,
Still waiting on parts for 912 install
Aerocet 1100 floats
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rexinator
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: 2 stroke oil - Pennzoil update
Dave,
Thanks. It's good to have choices and your empirical information is
always appreciated, at least by me. This oil subjct is so confused at
times it's difficult to get useful input. Lockwood appears to be a
reliable source and I would say people won't go wrong by following their
advice, but they are a business and want to grow. I haven't asked, but
they might only reccomend oils that they sell because of their
experience and testing that proves the performance. Would they also
reccomend Bombardier labled products? Probably since Bombardier is the
parent company of Rotax, right? There seems to be more choices for a
great lubricant for each application one could ask about and I would
like to ferret out the unbiased truth. I'm just a novice at this oil game.
--
Rex Hefferan
SE Colorado / K-II / 582-C / still waiting repairs
dave wrote:
>
>Rex, Good update on oils. I will tell you that I use Bombardier oil XPS
mineral oil that you can buy in bulk or containers from any Ski Doo and Sea
Doo shop. IT is API -TC rated and works excellent. I just changed to a new
582 as my last one had 500 hours on it and never was apart yet. I took a few
pics of the piston and it looks great if you want to see let me know .
>
>I am planning on changing over to Shell Advance oil which is API-TC rated
as well as most of my local guys already have. I have used this in other
planes for over 25 years now along with Castrol Super 2 stroke oil which
again is API-TC rated. Pennzoil is hard to get in Canada. My Rotaxes have
worked flawless and I contribute alot of that to the use of these oils.
>
>Stay away from oils not rated API-TC -- eg - TCW3 ( outboard oil)
>and stay away from synthetic oils.blends unless you are running them 3 or
more times per week. - EVERY WEEK !! I do sell cranks but I rather see
the right oil used and your crank last longer.
>
>
>Dave
>
>--------
>Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
>Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
>http://www.cfisher.com/
>Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
>http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
>
>
>
Message 32
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
I used to use a very light coating of light engine oil ( wipe off the excess
) when I worked on certified planes. Things like flap tracks on small
Cessna aircraft was done with a very thin layer of high pressure grease...
again all excess was wiped away so it wouldn't pick up dust. Most of the
time when planes came in for their next scheduled maintenance there would be
huge gobs of grease well impregnated with dirt on the flap tracks. It's a
wonder they ever worked.
My personal preference for my Kitfox pulleys etc is to use 3 in 1 for
electric motors (Sewing machine oil?) it gives good lubrication, once the
excess is wiped off it doesn't run and it doesn't seem to pick up too much
dust.
I'm interested in what the rest of the people around here think on this
topic.
Sigtaturea
Noel Loveys
Campbellton, NL, Canada
CDN AME intern, PP-Rec
C-FINB, Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 floats
noelloveys@yahoo.ca
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jlfernan
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 12:19 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Lubrication
Looked around but can't find an answer. Getting to the point where I'll be
attaching big parts and have a question on lube. Which is the preferred
type/brand for areas like the elevator pivots?
--------
Jorge Fernandez
Supersport
Just starting!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198724#198724
Message 33
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
Anyone who still has a 426 hemi in the garage will find out it also likes
100 LL J
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim_and_Lucy
Chuk
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 1:14 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
A couple of months ago, I bought a wrecked Rans for the 912 engine that was
on it. The hour meter read 86 hrs. I pulled the engine apart to have a
look in side, as it had sat for 6 years. All looked fine inside, but there
was a buildup in the combustion chambers (head and top of piston) of a
yellowish compound. It was perhaps 1/32" thick. When I talked to the tech
advisor at Leading Edge Air Foils, he said it was lead buildup from running
avgas. On the pluss side for the avgas though, one wing tank had about 2
1/2 gallons of avgas in it and to get rid of it, I ran it through my mower
with no problem. Jim Chuk Kitfox 4 building, Avids B and MK IV flying, MN
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
> From: orcabonita@hotmail.com
> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 07:44:16 -0700
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
>
> Fox5Flyer,
>
> Despite your well written, and very elegant article, you are just plain
wrong Joseph whne you say
>
> " As for 100LL destroying or "gumming up" the engine, not true. "
>
> You are mixing up your facts between certified aircraft engines which need
the lead in 100LL and Rotax 912 engines which are harmed by lead. The Rotax
912 was designed for unleaded fuel, and it is far better to run unleaded gas
in it.
>
> The Rotax 912 will tolerate 100 LL, but the maintenance schedule is
doubled, oil changes and spark plugs have to be changed twice as often. Also
the synthetic oil which is vastly superior to dinosaur oil is can not be
used in the Rotax when 100LL is used. There was also a service letter about
lead buildup causing spalling on the gears due to lead buildup. These are
not facts that someone is posting as " Misinformation ", this comes straight
from the Rotax maintenance manual.
>
> A friend of mine has over 3000 hours operating Rotax 912-s, and he changes
his oil to non synthetic and uses 100LL for cross country, as there is no
other option. He reports hard lead deposits in his oil tank after using 100
LL for 50 hours or so. It is well known that 100LL will form nasty lead
deposits in the Rotax 912 series engines. Synthetic oil is vastly superior
to non synthetic, having to use non synthetic oil will shorten the life of
the Rotax 912 over time.
>
> Click the following link to Read the 100LL comments from Rotax Service.com
:
>
> http://www.rotaxservice.com/rotax_tips/rotax_feed4.htm
>
> There are mountains of evidence out there documenting the problems with
100 LL and the rotax 912 engines. This is not paranoia or something someone
made up, it is very real.
>
> Mike
>
> --------
> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you
could have !!!
>
> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198723#198723
>
>
>
======================
&g
>
>
>
_____
Get ideas on sharing photos from people like you. Find new ways to share.
Get Ideas Here!
<http://www.windowslive.com/explore/photogallery/posts?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Pho
to_Gallery_082008>
Message 34
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
Dave:
Just today a guy who recently moved here form southern Ontario mentioned to
me he is getting a lot better fuel mileage in his pickup truck than he did
in Ontario... Just one of the pleasant side effects of not having ethanol
in the gas!
As for ethanol vs. 100 LL I think I'd opt for the ethanol or even try
washing out the eth.
Mr. Harper was here the past two days, no one asked him how to get his
ethanol here or what the penalty is for non-compliance. I wonder if it was
an option to buy ethanol laced gas if it would sell... my bet is it would
not... Not even for cars.
Sigtaturea
Noel Loveys
Campbellton, NL, Canada
CDN AME intern, PP-Rec
C-FINB, Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 floats
noelloveys@yahoo.ca
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dave
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 12:59 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
Deke & Mike ,
2 great informative posts.
100 LL gumming up fuel systems ? No i think that it has been used to NOT
gum up fuel systems. I rarely get any issues with gumming of fuel systems.
As far as 100 LL, I think it might be more consistent in the brewing of it
than MOGAS . That being said Mogas or marina gas works for me pretty decent.
And Deke >>
> Also, be very careful of what you read here on the Internet.
> Take all of it with a healthy dose of skepticism and do your own research
> before you consider anything as gospel.
This is why i respond with movies to show you that I put behind what i say
with a video. As far as Ethanol gas ---- I fly 250 to 300 a year and all
with ethanol gas or what ever the heck is at the pumps. AVGAS I think i
burned 4 gals a few years ago cause a guy wanted to dump a gerry cans he had
in his floats so I just ran it through a funnel and flew away :)
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198727#198727
Message 35
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
TCP is required to be burned to work. That's in the specs I read somewhere.
It doesn't protect the engine from lead content in blow by therefore in the
gear drive of the 9xx engines. It will only help keep plugs and exhaust
valves from fouling, according to their own info.
Noel
>...I bought a wrecked Rans for the 912 engine...The hour meter read
>86 hrs. I pulled the engine apart to have a look in side...All
>looked fine inside, but there was a buildup in the combustion
>chambers...it was lead buildup from running avgas.
Which is why you add a lead-scavenging agent such as TCP when you run
leaded fuel in them. It sounds like your engine did not get such
treatment.
Message 36
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
IMHO the only thing definitely destroyed is the warrantee.
Noel
Come on... In other words,
buy it from us or your engine will be destroyed!
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 391+ TT
"
Message 37
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
That's darn close to my sentiments... Bet we both get some flack over that!
Do you have any ideas how they are going to deliver ethanol fuel to
Labrador, Nunavut or Baffin? Sending it in whiskey bottles works for me!
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or
fiction?
Not sure about that Frank. While the whole silly ethanol thing has not hit
here yet, I'm lead to believe that all distributors would actually have
Ethanol free fuel in any case because the booze must be added to the fuel at
the closest point to sale possible. It isn't added at the refinery. I expect
this fuelishness will pass eventually unless a new ethanol technology is
created because it doesn't save fuel, it just makes midwest (corn market
states) republicans re-electable.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Miles" <f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net>
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 5:17 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or
fiction?
> <f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net>
>
> One sez "don't burn 100LL" another "Don't burn fuel with ethanol". Another
> "Only burn pure mogas". The truth of the matter is that in many cases we
> no
> longer have a choice. It's either 100LL, ethanol laced fuel or park it!!
> There is another alternative but not likely to come about unless we get
> someone with a bigger stick than we have. Get the fuel distributors to
> stock
> some high octane fuel mogas without ethanol. In most states they, the
> distributors, can do this but they WON'T because of need to put in
> additional and separate storage capacities. It's all a matter of $$ and we
> don't have the clout! Until the subsidies for ethanol expire or are
> removed,
> we are screwed!
>
> Frank Miles
> Clarkston, Washington
> K-III w/ 582
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mnflyer
> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 11:31 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
>
>
> Hi Joe you are right on with your post about Lead, but one thing wrong oil
> company Shell never mfg a full synthetic oil it was Mobil with their Mobil
> 1
> that had the problems and was sued and the Mobil aviation oil was / is
> history. Aeroshell,s 15W-50 is a para-synthetic and is an excellent oil
> and
> takes care of lead very well.
> I burned 1/3 100LL in my 582 for over 200 hrs and it was running perfectly
> when I removed it at 297 hrs. I'd never run ethanol in my aircraft
> engines.
>
> --------
> GB
> MNFlyer
> Flying a HKS Kitfox III
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198755#198755
>
>
>
Message 38
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
One sez "don't burn 100LL" another "Don't burn fuel with ethanol". Another
"Only burn pure mogas". The truth of the matter is that in many cases we no
longer have a choice. It's either 100LL, ethanol laced fuel or park it!!
There is another alternative but not likely to come about unless we get
someone with a bigger stick than we have. Get the fuel distributors to stock
some high octane fuel without ethanol. In most states they, the
distributors, can do this but they WON'T because of the need to put in
additional and separate storage. It's all a matter of $$ and we don't have
the clout! Until the subsidies for ethanol expire or are removed, we are SOL
(sure out of luck)!
Frank Miles
Clarkston, Washington
K-III w/ 582
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 6:41 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
Dave:
Just today a guy who recently moved here form southern Ontario mentioned to
me he is getting a lot better fuel mileage in his pickup truck than he did
in Ontario... Just one of the pleasant side effects of not having ethanol
in the gas!
As for ethanol vs. 100 LL I think I'd opt for the ethanol or even try
washing out the eth.
Mr. Harper was here the past two days, no one asked him how to get his
ethanol here or what the penalty is for non-compliance. I wonder if it was
an option to buy ethanol laced gas if it would sell... my bet is it would
not... Not even for cars.
Sigtaturea
Noel Loveys
Campbellton, NL, Canada
CDN AME intern, PP-Rec
C-FINB, Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 floats
noelloveys@yahoo.ca
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dave
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 12:59 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
Deke & Mike ,
2 great informative posts.
100 LL gumming up fuel systems ? No i think that it has been used to NOT
gum up fuel systems. I rarely get any issues with gumming of fuel systems.
As far as 100 LL, I think it might be more consistent in the brewing of it
than MOGAS . That being said Mogas or marina gas works for me pretty decent.
And Deke >>
> Also, be very careful of what you read here on the Internet.
> Take all of it with a healthy dose of skepticism and do your own research
> before you consider anything as gospel.
This is why i respond with movies to show you that I put behind what i say
with a video. As far as Ethanol gas ---- I fly 250 to 300 a year and all
with ethanol gas or what ever the heck is at the pumps. AVGAS I think i
burned 4 gals a few years ago cause a guy wanted to dump a gerry cans he had
in his floats so I just ran it through a funnel and flew away :)
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198727#198727
to browse
Un/Subscription,
Browse, Chat, FAQ,
more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
Web Forums!
http://forums.matronics.com
support!
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 39
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
I will mention one reason to not do it. Safety.
There will be some water left in the gas phase. Just like the water phase
is contaminated with gas. You will not get it ALL out. The risk then is
that you will get further phase separation at lower temperatures (like maybe
while you are flying?). Then you run the risk of unwanted silence while up
there. All this assumes that you are really good and don't accidentally get
some of the water phase in your tank.
One way to protect against this is to add some alcohol to your fuel to keep
the water from separating out. 8-)
Randy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bjones@dmv.com
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 6:53 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or
fiction?
What are the reasons, other than inconvenience, not to buy premium auto gas
in
5 gallon containers, pouring a can full into a larger funnel bottom
container
that has a flexible clear tube and valve at the bottom, adding a gallon of
water, shake, let the alcohol and water settleout, drain off the settleout,
and
then drain the remaing straight gas back into the original 5 gallon
container.
Multiple technical folks who deal with ethanol blended gas for the big
general
aviation organizations as well as a couple of scientists who work in the
fuel
and additive business indicate that if done properly this works although the
residual gas will have 3 to 5 octane less than the original premium auto
fuel
with 10 percent ethanol.
None could officially recommend this process on behalf of their organization
because there is an obvious environmental concern regarding disposal of the
settleout, and the inevitability of a law suite against their organization
if
someone does not do it carefully and crashes.
I bet many if not most of us routinely fuel our 912s and 582s by 5 gallon
can
anyway.
If we need the higher octane found in the original premium auto gas, we can
add
a little 100LL to boost octane without worrying about lead build up in our
engines or in our engine oil from use of straight 100LL.
I know folks are doing this and some have talked about it on this web site.
So
back to the original question. Are there one or more contraindications from
a
fuel science or engine perspective? And if so what are the contraindications
and how significant are they? Any technical types care to chime in?
Thanks
Kitfox N154K & PA 39 turbo N626NR
Bjones@dmv.com
443-480-1023
Quoting Frank Miles <f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net>:
in my engine oil.
> <f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net>
>
> One sez "don't burn 100LL" another "Don't burn fuel with ethanol". Another
> "Only burn pure mogas". The truth of the matter is that in many cases we
no
> longer have a choice. It's either 100LL, ethanol laced fuel or park it!!
> There is another alternative but not likely to come about unless we get
> someone with a bigger stick than we have. Get the fuel distributors to
stock
> some high octane fuel mogas without ethanol. In most states they, the
> distributors, can do this but they WON'T because of need to put in
> additional and separate storage capacities. It's all a matter of $$ and we
> don't have the clout! Until the subsidies for ethanol expire or are
removed,
> we are screwed!
>
> Frank Miles
> Clarkston, Washington
> K-III w/ 582
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mnflyer
> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 11:31 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
>
>
> Hi Joe you are right on with your post about Lead, but one thing wrong oil
> company Shell never mfg a full synthetic oil it was Mobil with their Mobil
1
> that had the problems and was sued and the Mobil aviation oil was / is
> history. Aeroshell,s 15W-50 is a para-synthetic and is an excellent oil
and
> takes care of lead very well.
> I burned 1/3 100LL in my 582 for over 200 hrs and it was running perfectly
> when I removed it at 297 hrs. I'd never run ethanol in my aircraft
engines.
>
> --------
> GB
> MNFlyer
> Flying a HKS Kitfox III
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198755#198755
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using Delmarva Online's Webmail.
http://www.delmarvaonline.com/
Message 40
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
You are correct. It is my understanding that the distributors do have
ethanol free fuel and it is mixed at that point (closest point of sale) and
they are paid handsomely to do so. It is then shipped to the point of sale.
In our case service stations, convenience stores and so on. The point of
sale people do not have sufficient storage and handling for another fuel. I
was told that I could purchase a tanker, 10,000 gallons, but would have to
come up with my own storage and handling facilities. Now, that is something
that I am going to do, right!
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 7:07 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or
fiction?
That's darn close to my sentiments... Bet we both get some flack over that!
Do you have any ideas how they are going to deliver ethanol fuel to
Labrador, Nunavut or Baffin? Sending it in whiskey bottles works for me!
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or
fiction?
Not sure about that Frank. While the whole silly ethanol thing has not hit
here yet, I'm lead to believe that all distributors would actually have
Ethanol free fuel in any case because the booze must be added to the fuel at
the closest point to sale possible. It isn't added at the refinery. I expect
this fuelishness will pass eventually unless a new ethanol technology is
created because it doesn't save fuel, it just makes midwest (corn market
states) republicans re-electable.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Miles" <f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net>
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 5:17 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or
fiction?
> <f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net>
>
> One sez "don't burn 100LL" another "Don't burn fuel with ethanol". Another
> "Only burn pure mogas". The truth of the matter is that in many cases we
> no
> longer have a choice. It's either 100LL, ethanol laced fuel or park it!!
> There is another alternative but not likely to come about unless we get
> someone with a bigger stick than we have. Get the fuel distributors to
> stock
> some high octane fuel mogas without ethanol. In most states they, the
> distributors, can do this but they WON'T because of need to put in
> additional and separate storage capacities. It's all a matter of $$ and we
> don't have the clout! Until the subsidies for ethanol expire or are
> removed,
> we are screwed!
>
> Frank Miles
> Clarkston, Washington
> K-III w/ 582
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mnflyer
> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 11:31 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
>
>
> Hi Joe you are right on with your post about Lead, but one thing wrong oil
> company Shell never mfg a full synthetic oil it was Mobil with their Mobil
> 1
> that had the problems and was sued and the Mobil aviation oil was / is
> history. Aeroshell,s 15W-50 is a para-synthetic and is an excellent oil
> and
> takes care of lead very well.
> I burned 1/3 100LL in my 582 for over 200 hrs and it was running perfectly
> when I removed it at 297 hrs. I'd never run ethanol in my aircraft
> engines.
>
> --------
> GB
> MNFlyer
> Flying a HKS Kitfox III
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198755#198755
>
>
>
Message 41
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
Although delivering a little more power, ethanol (100%) is proven to give
about 30% less mileage than gas(100%). At 10% ethanol in a properly set up
engine, you should lose just 3% .
Espuny
De: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] Em nome de Noel Loveys
Enviada em: sexta-feira, 15 de agosto de 2008 22:41
Para: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Assunto: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
Dave:
Just today a guy who recently moved here form southern Ontario mentioned to
me he is getting a lot better fuel mileage in his pickup truck than he did
in Ontario... Just one of the pleasant side effects of not having ethanol
in the gas!
As for ethanol vs. 100 LL I think I'd opt for the ethanol or even try
washing out the eth.
Mr. Harper was here the past two days, no one asked him how to get his
ethanol here or what the penalty is for non-compliance. I wonder if it was
an option to buy ethanol laced gas if it would sell... my bet is it would
not... Not even for cars.
Sigtaturea
Noel Loveys
Campbellton, NL, Canada
CDN AME intern, PP-Rec
C-FINB, Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 floats
noelloveys@yahoo.ca
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dave
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 12:59 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
Deke & Mike ,
2 great informative posts.
100 LL gumming up fuel systems ? No i think that it has been used to NOT
gum up fuel systems. I rarely get any issues with gumming of fuel systems.
As far as 100 LL, I think it might be more consistent in the brewing of it
than MOGAS . That being said Mogas or marina gas works for me pretty decent.
And Deke >>
> Also, be very careful of what you read here on the Internet.
> Take all of it with a healthy dose of skepticism and do your own research
> before you consider anything as gospel.
This is why i respond with movies to show you that I put behind what i say
with a video. As far as Ethanol gas ---- I fly 250 to 300 a year and all
with ethanol gas or what ever the heck is at the pumps. AVGAS I think i
burned 4 gals a few years ago cause a guy wanted to dump a gerry cans he had
in his floats so I just ran it through a funnel and flew away :)
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198727#198727
to browse
Un/Subscription,
Browse, Chat, FAQ,
more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
Web Forums!
http://forums.matronics.com
support!
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
_____
Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail <http://mail.terra.com.br/>
Protegido Terra.
Atualizado em 15/08/2008
Message 42
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
First... doing what you suggest has been done by at least one boater in NY.
The hull of his boat, which had integral tanks was being eaten by ethanol
gas left in the tank(boat). Because non eth contaminated fuel was not
available to him he started "washing" his fuel before putting it into his
boat and didn't have any more problems.
Doing this is hardly convenient. You have to have a tank designed to allow
the water to separate and also be able to remove the gas without getting any
of the water into the gas. This in not too difficult but consider this...
Gas is really a recipe that changes from manufacturer to manufacturer and
season to season. You also have to ask what else can the water wash out of
the gas. ( dirt or dust is definitely removed from gas by water, dye may
also be removed )
The settle out is supposed to be ethanol, and water... There is an additive
to make the stuff unpalatable but that also is supposed to be non poisonous
and organic in nature... In other words if you drop it in your favourite
stream you may find out what it is to drink like a fish. The stuff the put
in the ethanol cannot be distilled out ...DARN!!! but it is not toxic
There are many other non alcohol octane boosters available at local speed
shops I'd use one of those to boost octane if needed.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bjones@dmv.com
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 10:23 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or
fiction?
What are the reasons, other than inconvenience, not to buy premium auto gas
in
5 gallon containers, pouring a can full into a larger funnel bottom
container
that has a flexible clear tube and valve at the bottom, adding a gallon of
water, shake, let the alcohol and water settleout, drain off the settleout,
and
then drain the remaing straight gas back into the original 5 gallon
container.
Multiple technical folks who deal with ethanol blended gas for the big
general
aviation organizations as well as a couple of scientists who work in the
fuel
and additive business indicate that if done properly this works although the
residual gas will have 3 to 5 octane less than the original premium auto
fuel
with 10 percent ethanol.
None could officially recommend this process on behalf of their organization
because there is an obvious environmental concern regarding disposal of the
settleout, and the inevitability of a law suite against their organization
if
someone does not do it carefully and crashes.
I bet many if not most of us routinely fuel our 912s and 582s by 5 gallon
can
anyway.
If we need the higher octane found in the original premium auto gas, we can
add
a little 100LL to boost octane without worrying about lead build up in our
engines or in our engine oil from use of straight 100LL.
I know folks are doing this and some have talked about it on this web site.
So
back to the original question. Are there one or more contraindications from
a
fuel science or engine perspective? And if so what are the contraindications
and how significant are they? Any technical types care to chime in?
Thanks
Kitfox N154K & PA 39 turbo N626NR
Bjones@dmv.com
443-480-1023
Quoting Frank Miles <f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net>:
in my engine oil.
> <f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net>
>
> One sez "don't burn 100LL" another "Don't burn fuel with ethanol". Another
> "Only burn pure mogas". The truth of the matter is that in many cases we
no
> longer have a choice. It's either 100LL, ethanol laced fuel or park it!!
> There is another alternative but not likely to come about unless we get
> someone with a bigger stick than we have. Get the fuel distributors to
stock
> some high octane fuel mogas without ethanol. In most states they, the
> distributors, can do this but they WON'T because of need to put in
> additional and separate storage capacities. It's all a matter of $$ and we
> don't have the clout! Until the subsidies for ethanol expire or are
removed,
> we are screwed!
>
> Frank Miles
> Clarkston, Washington
> K-III w/ 582
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mnflyer
> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 11:31 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
>
>
> Hi Joe you are right on with your post about Lead, but one thing wrong oil
> company Shell never mfg a full synthetic oil it was Mobil with their Mobil
1
> that had the problems and was sued and the Mobil aviation oil was / is
> history. Aeroshell,s 15W-50 is a para-synthetic and is an excellent oil
and
> takes care of lead very well.
> I burned 1/3 100LL in my 582 for over 200 hrs and it was running perfectly
> when I removed it at 297 hrs. I'd never run ethanol in my aircraft
engines.
>
> --------
> GB
> MNFlyer
> Flying a HKS Kitfox III
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198755#198755
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using Delmarva Online's Webmail.
http://www.delmarvaonline.com/
Message 43
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
Since when does water mix with gas??? True, it may take time to settle out
just as when you fill a plane with 100LL directly from the pumps you should
always wait twenty minutes before checking the sumps... it can take that
long for the water to settle out.
The whole problem is water does mix with ethanol and if there is enough
water in the ethanol and the temperature drops sufficiently you can get a
phase separation.. What separates is the water and the alcohol sinks to the
bottom where it blocks your fuel pick up while perfectly useable gas floats
on top of the water just out of reach of your engine... Talk about adding
insult to injury!
If any one was going to try this I'd recommend first putting a procedure in
place. That procedure should include a reasonable waiting period after
fuelling the plane and dripping the sumps. Perhaps a 'fuel washing service
is something FBOs could offer so individual pilots wouldn't have to have
extra special tanks lying around a half dozen or so airfields. They could
distil the ethanol effluent and use it to fuel barbecues... or something...
maybe sell it back to oil companies.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
Daughenbaugh
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 11:50 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or
fiction?
<rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
I will mention one reason to not do it. Safety.
There will be some water left in the gas phase. Just like the water phase
is contaminated with gas. You will not get it ALL out. The risk then is
that you will get further phase separation at lower temperatures (like maybe
while you are flying?). Then you run the risk of unwanted silence while up
there. All this assumes that you are really good and don't accidentally get
some of the water phase in your tank.
One way to protect against this is to add some alcohol to your fuel to keep
the water from separating out. 8-)
Randy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bjones@dmv.com
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 6:53 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or
fiction?
What are the reasons, other than inconvenience, not to buy premium auto gas
in
5 gallon containers, pouring a can full into a larger funnel bottom
container
that has a flexible clear tube and valve at the bottom, adding a gallon of
water, shake, let the alcohol and water settleout, drain off the settleout,
and
then drain the remaing straight gas back into the original 5 gallon
container.
Multiple technical folks who deal with ethanol blended gas for the big
general
aviation organizations as well as a couple of scientists who work in the
fuel
and additive business indicate that if done properly this works although the
residual gas will have 3 to 5 octane less than the original premium auto
fuel
with 10 percent ethanol.
None could officially recommend this process on behalf of their organization
because there is an obvious environmental concern regarding disposal of the
settleout, and the inevitability of a law suite against their organization
if
someone does not do it carefully and crashes.
I bet many if not most of us routinely fuel our 912s and 582s by 5 gallon
can
anyway.
If we need the higher octane found in the original premium auto gas, we can
add
a little 100LL to boost octane without worrying about lead build up in our
engines or in our engine oil from use of straight 100LL.
I know folks are doing this and some have talked about it on this web site.
So
back to the original question. Are there one or more contraindications from
a
fuel science or engine perspective? And if so what are the contraindications
and how significant are they? Any technical types care to chime in?
Thanks
Kitfox N154K & PA 39 turbo N626NR
Bjones@dmv.com
443-480-1023
Quoting Frank Miles <f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net>:
in my engine oil.
> <f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net>
>
> One sez "don't burn 100LL" another "Don't burn fuel with ethanol". Another
> "Only burn pure mogas". The truth of the matter is that in many cases we
no
> longer have a choice. It's either 100LL, ethanol laced fuel or park it!!
> There is another alternative but not likely to come about unless we get
> someone with a bigger stick than we have. Get the fuel distributors to
stock
> some high octane fuel mogas without ethanol. In most states they, the
> distributors, can do this but they WON'T because of need to put in
> additional and separate storage capacities. It's all a matter of $$ and we
> don't have the clout! Until the subsidies for ethanol expire or are
removed,
> we are screwed!
>
> Frank Miles
> Clarkston, Washington
> K-III w/ 582
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mnflyer
> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 11:31 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
>
>
> Hi Joe you are right on with your post about Lead, but one thing wrong oil
> company Shell never mfg a full synthetic oil it was Mobil with their Mobil
1
> that had the problems and was sued and the Mobil aviation oil was / is
> history. Aeroshell,s 15W-50 is a para-synthetic and is an excellent oil
and
> takes care of lead very well.
> I burned 1/3 100LL in my 582 for over 200 hrs and it was running perfectly
> when I removed it at 297 hrs. I'd never run ethanol in my aircraft
engines.
>
> --------
> GB
> MNFlyer
> Flying a HKS Kitfox III
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198755#198755
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using Delmarva Online's Webmail.
http://www.delmarvaonline.com/
Message 44
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
In the very back of our manual is where i found the recommended lubrications.
It said lps-1 and tru flow. Tru flow you can pick up at bike shops.
--------
Dj, Series 6
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198873#198873
Message 45
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
That is assuming the engine has had all the little goodies like increasing
the CR to make it burn ethanol most efficiently. With low CR engines with
mapping for gasoline you can easily reduce your mileage by close to 40 %.
The guy I was talking to said his mileage for a tank of fuel went from
500Km/tank to over 600km.tank. That is an increase of mileage of better
than 20%. His pickup is a low CR high displacement V8.
In terms of BTU ethanol is supposed to have about 67% the power of gasoline
per unit volume. In other words to get 67% of the mileage you would have to
retune or rebuild the engine specifically to burn ethanol efficiently. If
you do this your engine will no longer burn gasoline efficiently.
Here is a small raft of questions...
*What exactly do U.S. car makers mean when they say their cars are flex
fuel??
*Do these vehicles have variable CR for different mixes of fuel or do they
only have seals that ethanol won't eat out in a few months?
*Do they have variable fuel mapping for different mixes of fuel?
*Do they have variable controls on turbo charging waste gates?
*Is the whole idea of Flex Fuel just a way of recognizing that the
governments of both out lands are sending us down a slippery slope?
*Is the Idea of "Flex Fuel" vehicles totally hype because there is not one
iota difference in the engines made today and what was made two years ago?
*Just how do these machines determine the mix of the fuel it's being fed?
I know one method (Capacitance) but I expect it would be expensive to
incorporate in a car or truck.
Using the occasional tank of ethanol will no doubt clean out the top end of
your engine...
*What does it do with the dirt it cleans out???
*What does it do to the top end of your engine is there is no dirt present?
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Francisco
Espuny
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 12:03 AM
Subject: RES: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
Although delivering a little more power, ethanol (100%) is proven to give
about 30% less mileage than gas(100%). At 10% ethanol in a properly set up
engine, you should lose just 3% .
Espuny
Message 46
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
Hi, Noel.
I'll try to tell you what I know. In my country the common cityzen knows
how
a flex engine works, because it's the final point of a long evolution
that
affected any driver.
Well, I just don't know if the "flex" tech you have inside USA is the
same
we have here, but I can say that all modern auto techs comes from the
evolution of 1970's brazilian Proalcool, a government financed sugar
cane
reserch and production system (with money loaned from your countries, of
course). Nowadays all investments are private except for Petrobras
that's a
state controlled open capital company.
First there were cars for hidrated ethanol or gas, separetely, no one
could
run on blends. Alchool cars could not be fueled with gas, for their
compression rate was higer and could be damaged, but many people added
some
gas to alchool for a better start in cold mornings, and there was a gas
bottle and a little pump to help at cold starts. Gas cars, if fueled
with
alchool worked as a heart having a stroke, or simply did not work.
The first alchool cars' carburetors looked like an old boat hull, full
of
deposits and corrosion. So were mufflers , pumps and other. First, they
niquel plated them, and after some years, developed new materials that
could
resist the contact with alchool itself.
A flex car means that the engine has a higer compression to allow
ethanol
explosion, while more resistant to bear gas explosion at higher CR, plus
many sensors and a computerized injection system and all parts ethanol
resistant. Some of the sensors analyse the exaust gas and can determine
the
fuel composition. There's still a plus little gas tank and a temp
sensor; if
temperature outside is low and sensors find too much alchool in fuel
composition, a pump adds some gas to the mixture to a smoother start.
That's
all, and not too different from your gas cars. They're trusty and last a
lot, as any gas car. There's no bad smell, no different sounds, just the
convenience of fuelling the way you want. It's even not more expensive
and
the fuel is cheaper, to compensate less mileage.
Some chemicals are added to ethanol and eth-gas, so it's not a good idea
to
deliver it on whiskey bottles, as someone wrote. The engine oil remain
yellow by the change time, while gas cars turns it into black, and
escape
gases are less dangerous, but there's more water expelled from the scape
;
the water that is added to ethanol in the distillery and the one that
results from combustion (fuel+O2=H20+CO2). There are less deposits
because
of more complete burn and absence of some gas components (that's all I
know
about it). And I dont have information about cleaning previous burnt gas
deposits,sorry.
No need added mantainance, also.
A few years ago, french government analyzed an eth car and determined
that
the gases could affect the psych, like making people laugh (it's not a
joke).
Believe-me. I love cars, I spend too much on them, and I hated the
alchool
ones (I used to call them "bombs"), but I love the "flexes". It's great
now
that we have all these techs. It's no BS and no political conspiration.
Talking of power, a flex Civic Si , a GM S10 or any other car, is
guaranteed
by the factory to have power increased a little when fueled with
ethanol. We
confirm this on private dynamometers at the garages everytime someone
goes
to a tune.
But never try to fuel a '67 Mustang with ethanol, or your friend's V8.
The
602 is strong and may burn some eth, but it'll never be the same. Nor
the
B&W carbs .
When I said 30% less mileage , I was comparing uses of both fuels in a
flex
car, or cars specific for each fuel. That's true. Here, you find tables
to
compare costs of fuels considering mileage and decide what to buy at the
pumps everywhere, on newspapers, auto magazines, etc. They all use the
30%
rule. I suppose your friend's car is experiencing little mileage because
it
was not meant to use ethanol, not built and not tuned to. I have a flex
pickup and it's better than my last diesel one.
But, I repeat, in my opinion all these modifications and more have to be
done to planes before they use ethanol, or they'll work as a heart on
stroke
too. And I say "more" because there are more variables inside a flying
plane
than in a car, like quick pressure changes, temperature, inertia,
vibration,
moisture, volume and shape of tanks, etc .
Let's open our minds and wait. It's destiny. Oil will become rare and
expensive, biofuels will take the world. Flex planes will be fine
someday.
By now, only good hi-oct eth-free gas.
Espuny
I talk too much...someone, please, stop me!
De: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] Em nome de Noel Loveys
Enviada em: s=E1bado, 16 de agosto de 2008 00:26
Para: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Assunto: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or
fiction?
That is assuming the engine has had all the little goodies like
increasing
the CR to make it burn ethanol most efficiently. With low CR engines
with
mapping for gasoline you can easily reduce your mileage by close to 40
%.
The guy I was talking to said his mileage for a tank of fuel went from
500Km/tank to over 600km.tank. That is an increase of mileage of better
than 20%. His pickup is a low CR high displacement V8.
In terms of BTU ethanol is supposed to have about 67% the power of
gasoline
per unit volume. In other words to get 67% of the mileage you would have
to
retune or rebuild the engine specifically to burn ethanol efficiently.
If
you do this your engine will no longer burn gasoline efficiently.
Here is a small raft of questions...
*What exactly do U.S. car makers mean when they say their cars are flex
fuel??
*Do these vehicles have variable CR for different mixes of fuel or do
they
only have seals that ethanol won=92t eat out in a few months?
*Do they have variable fuel mapping for different mixes of fuel?
*Do they have variable controls on turbo charging waste gates?
*Is the whole idea of Flex Fuel just a way of recognizing that the
governments of both out lands are sending us down a slippery slope?
*Is the Idea of =93Flex Fuel=94 vehicles totally hype because there is
not one
iota difference in the engines made today and what was made two years
ago?
*Just how do these machines determine the mix of the fuel it=92s being
fed?
I know one method (Capacitance) but I expect it would be expensive to
incorporate in a car or truck.
Using the occasional tank of ethanol will no doubt clean out the top end
of
your engine...
*What does it do with the dirt it cleans out???
*What does it do to the top end of your engine is there is no dirt
present?
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Francisco
Espuny
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 12:03 AM
Subject: RES: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or
fiction?
Although delivering a little more power, ethanol (100%) is proven to
give
about 30% less mileage than gas(100%). At 10% ethanol in a properly set
up
engine, you should lose just 3% .
Espuny
_____
Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail <http://mail.terra.com.br/>
Protegido Terra.
Atualizado em 16/08/2008
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|