Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:50 AM - Re: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (Dave)
2. 05:46 AM - Re: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?Re: 100LL/Ethano (Catz631@aol.com)
3. 06:01 AM - Aveoflash strobe lights (Catz631@aol.com)
4. 06:13 AM - Re: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?Re: 100LL/Ethano (Dacha)
5. 06:13 AM - Aveoflash strobe lights (Catz631@aol.com)
6. 06:46 AM - Staples for poly attach to ribs (Harry Cieslar)
7. 06:50 AM - Re: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (Lowell Fitt)
8. 07:11 AM - Re: Aveoflash strobe lights (Rick Frederick)
9. 08:36 AM - Re: 2 stroke oil - Pennzoil update (Rexinator)
10. 08:55 AM - Re: Re: 2 stroke oil - Pennzoil update (Rexinator)
11. 08:59 AM - Re: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (Randy Daughenbaugh)
12. 09:19 AM - Re: Lubrication (Rexinator)
13. 11:16 AM - RES: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?Re: 100LL/Ethano (Francisco Espuny)
14. 11:52 AM - Re: Aveoflash strobe lights (steve shinabery)
15. 11:55 AM - RES: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (Francisco Espuny)
16. 12:01 PM - RES: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (Francisco Espuny)
17. 12:38 PM - Re: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (Randy Daughenbaugh)
18. 12:42 PM - Level Point for KF2 (steve shinabery)
19. 02:33 PM - Re: Level Point for KF2 (Dee Young)
20. 02:57 PM - Re: Staples for poly attach to ribs (n85ae)
21. 03:04 PM - Re: Progress report S5 test flying (n85ae)
22. 06:01 PM - Model 4 gear (Larry Huntley)
23. 06:03 PM - Model 4 gear (Larry Huntley)
24. 07:13 PM - Re: Model 4 gear (Lowell Fitt)
25. 09:33 PM - Re: Staples for poly attach to ribs (ron schick)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
----- Original Message -----
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 11:07 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or
fiction?
>
> That's darn close to my sentiments... Bet we both get some flack over
> that!
>
> Do you have any ideas how they are going to deliver ethanol fuel to
> Labrador, Nunavut or Baffin? Sending it in whiskey bottles works for me!
>
> Noel
>
I have never actually met anyone who thought ethanol fuel (as presently
implemented) was a good idea, not even the environmentalists. I expect there
are some who buy the idea, but currently the production has too many
downsides.
The only true alternative out there at present is a lead free aviation fuel.
That may coming, we'll see. Noel, I doubt that Harper has any real interest
in anything NFLD does as long as Danny is around. We Maritimers have do not
control enough seats in the house to matter. But I doubt you'll EVER see
ethanol fuel in your pumps. For those who don't know, everything in NFLD is
sent by container or truck. Here is a clip of how Noel's Kitfox likely
travelled to the rock.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cwxtb-I6bXU
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?Re: 100LL/Ethano |
My two Triumph TR3's purr like a kitten on 100LL
Dick Maddux
Pensacola, Fl
**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
Read reviews on AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00030000000007 )
Message 3
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| Subject: | Aveoflash strobe lights |
With all this talk about alcohol I feel like getting a drink !
Here is something new. I am in the process of installing a set of Aveoflash
strobe lights. Boy are they super deluxe ! I read about them on the Kitplanes
blog site. They look cool and operate without a power pack ! In fact you can
touch two wires from the strobe to a 9 volt battery and watch them flash away .
They are bright!. I will loose about 4 lbs in weight by removing the
Whelans(sp) AND the power consumption is nothing ! ( about 80% less ) That will
help
tremedously with my over all power usage as the strobes are the biggist consumer
and the alternator on the Rotax is not very big.
Spruce is the US distributer.
My old strobes will go on EBAY and that will reduce the overall price.
Dick Maddux
Fox 4-1200
Rotax 912UL
Pensacola, Fl
**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
Read reviews on AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00030000000007 )
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?Re: 100LL/Ethano |
You certainly have some very nice toys.
LeRoy
Message 5
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| Subject: | Aveoflash strobe lights |
Sorry I had all those misspelled words in my last post. I wrote it real fast
and usually do a spell check but my wife woke up and came around the corner
and asked what I was doing. I hit send. She doesn't know I bought these lights.
OK,OK,OK but for you old married guys you understand.
Dick Maddux
Pensacola,Fl
**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
Read reviews on AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00030000000007 )
Message 6
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| Subject: | Staples for poly attach to ribs |
Anyone with experience on SS Staples attaching polyfiber to wood ribs.
My Avid Magnum manual describes this method but no one uses it that I
know? all tend to use rib stitching. Any experienced builders that have
used this vs rib lacing?
Harry Cieslar , Avid Magnum Project, ON, Canada
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
Francisco,
Please explain how ethanol delivers more power and does less work. This
sounds like a major contradiction.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Francisco Espuny" <espuny@terra.com.br>
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 7:32 PM
Subject: RES: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
> Although delivering a little more power, ethanol (100%) is proven to give
> about 30% less mileage than gas(100%). At 10% ethanol in a properly set up
> engine, you should lose just 3% .
>
>
> Espuny
>
>
> De: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] Em nome de Noel Loveys
> Enviada em: sexta-feira, 15 de agosto de 2008 22:41
> Para: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Assunto: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
>
>
> Dave:
>
>
> Just today a guy who recently moved here form southern Ontario mentioned
> to
> me he is getting a lot better fuel mileage in his pickup truck than he did
> in Ontario... Just one of the pleasant side effects of not having ethanol
> in the gas!
>
>
> As for ethanol vs. 100 LL I think I'd opt for the ethanol or even try
> washing out the eth.
>
>
> Mr. Harper was here the past two days, no one asked him how to get his
> ethanol here or what the penalty is for non-compliance. I wonder if it
> was
> an option to buy ethanol laced gas if it would sell... my bet is it would
> not... Not even for cars.
>
>
> Sigtaturea
>
>
> Noel Loveys
>
> Campbellton, NL, Canada
>
> CDN AME intern, PP-Rec
>
> C-FINB, Kitfox III-A
>
> Aerocet 1100 floats
>
> noelloveys@yahoo.ca
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dave
> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 12:59 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
>
>
>
>
> Deke & Mike ,
>
>
> 2 great informative posts.
>
>
> 100 LL gumming up fuel systems ? No i think that it has been used to NOT
> gum up fuel systems. I rarely get any issues with gumming of fuel systems.
>
>
> As far as 100 LL, I think it might be more consistent in the brewing of it
> than MOGAS . That being said Mogas or marina gas works for me pretty
> decent.
>
>
> And Deke >>
>
>> Also, be very careful of what you read here on the Internet.
>
>> Take all of it with a healthy dose of skepticism and do your own research
>
>> before you consider anything as gospel.
>
>
> This is why i respond with movies to show you that I put behind what i say
> with a video. As far as Ethanol gas ---- I fly 250 to 300 a year and all
> with ethanol gas or what ever the heck is at the pumps. AVGAS I think i
> burned 4 gals a few years ago cause a guy wanted to dump a gerry cans he
> had
> in his floats so I just ran it through a funnel and flew away :)
>
>
> --------
>
> Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
>
> Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
>
> http://www.cfisher.com/
>
> Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
>
> http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198727#198727
>
>
> to browse
>
> Un/Subscription,
>
> Browse, Chat, FAQ,
>
> more:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
>
>
> Web Forums!
>
> http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
> support!
>
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
> _____
>
> Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail <http://mail.terra.com.br/>
> Protegido Terra.
> Atualizado em 15/08/2008
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Aveoflash strobe lights |
My wife doesn't even know about the mostly complete kitfox IV in my
hangar.
She thinks the extra time is spent with another woman, god forbid she
finds out :)
Rick, Kitfox IV / 912ul / 50%
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Catz631@aol.com
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 9:13 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Aveoflash strobe lights
Sorry I had all those misspelled words in my last post. I wrote it
real fast and usually do a spell check but my wife woke up and came
around the corner and asked what I was doing. I hit send. She doesn't
know I bought these lights. OK,OK,OK but for you old married guys you
understand.
Dick Maddux
Pensacola,Fl
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read
reviews on AOL Autos.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: 2 stroke oil - Pennzoil update |
Sadly when I aquired my Model 2 I got a case and a half of the Pennzoil
which was already 4 years old. Lockwood said it has a shelf life of
about 3 years and if unopened plastic bottles show sucked in sides the
oil has degraded and should not be used. He said it should be recycled.
Hopefully this information may save someone damage to their engine or worse.
--
Rex Hefferan
SE Colorado / K-II / 582-C / still waiting repairs
Noel Loveys wrote:
>
>Funny thing about oil... I think some people have more loyalty to the oil
>the use in their 582 than they do to their wives :-)... some are even more
>willing to change wives than oil.
>
>All that aside I tend to go by the Bombardier operators manual... stick
>with API-TC spec. I assume that the Bombardier XPS mineral oil meets their
>own specifications.... and bought in bulk it is affordable. As Dave has
>said finding Penz two-stroke air cooled north of 49,40' is next to
>impossible.
>
>
>Noel Loveys
>AME Intern, RPP
>Kitfox III-A,
>Still waiting on parts for 912 install
>Aerocet 1100 floats
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: 2 stroke oil - Pennzoil update |
Guy,
I don't think so. Lockwood said it will be a new oil labeled as
Aeroshell and would not be available before January 2009. My impressions
are there are minimum specs for API-TC ratings and the new Aeroshell
product will exceed those specs. and perform as well as the discontinued
Pennzoil for Air Cooled Engines. Does that mean you should only use the
best? To use one of my ground school instructors favorite answers: "It
depends." Probably the any API-TC rated oil will provide the minimum
protection needed for your 582 if you follow the manufacturers service
schedule. If you exceed the recommended hours as many do, it might be in
your interest to use the best performance lubricants.
--
Rex Hefferan
SE Colorado / K-II / 582-C / still waiting repairs
Guy Buchanan wrote:
>
> At 02:48 AM 8/15/2008, you wrote:
>
>> I am planning on changing over to Shell Advance oil which is API-TC
>> rated as well as most of my local guys already have.
>
>
> Dave,
> Is this the new Shell oil Rex was talking about?
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> San Diego, CA
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
Since when does water mix with gas???
Well Noel, Since the dawn of the ages I guess.
You can prove it to yourself. Get some good dry gas with no alcohol in it.
Add a small amount of water - start with 0.10% and mix it a few minutes
until it all dissolves. Add another 0.10% and mix. Repeat until you get a
water layer that will NOT dissolve. You will then know how much water will
dissolve in that particular gas at that temperature. The amount will vary
with different gas because gasoline varies in composition.
Let's say you find out it is 0.50% water that dissolves in the gas. You do
the math on how much water that is in a 20 gallon tank. I assure you that
that is enough to stop an engine if the fuel gets colder as you are flying
and the water separates out.
It would simply be foolish (or fuelish) to put yourself at risk doing this.
Randy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 8:53 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or
fiction?
Since when does water mix with gas??? True, it may take time to settle out
just as when you fill a plane with 100LL directly from the pumps you should
always wait twenty minutes before checking the sumps... it can take that
long for the water to settle out.
The whole problem is water does mix with ethanol and if there is enough
water in the ethanol and the temperature drops sufficiently you can get a
phase separation.. What separates is the water and the alcohol sinks to the
bottom where it blocks your fuel pick up while perfectly useable gas floats
on top of the water just out of reach of your engine... Talk about adding
insult to injury!
If any one was going to try this I'd recommend first putting a procedure in
place. That procedure should include a reasonable waiting period after
fuelling the plane and dripping the sumps. Perhaps a 'fuel washing service
is something FBOs could offer so individual pilots wouldn't have to have
extra special tanks lying around a half dozen or so airfields. They could
distil the ethanol effluent and use it to fuel barbecues... or something...
maybe sell it back to oil companies.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
Daughenbaugh
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 11:50 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or
fiction?
<rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
I will mention one reason to not do it. Safety.
There will be some water left in the gas phase. Just like the water phase
is contaminated with gas. You will not get it ALL out. The risk then is
that you will get further phase separation at lower temperatures (like maybe
while you are flying?). Then you run the risk of unwanted silence while up
there. All this assumes that you are really good and don't accidentally get
some of the water phase in your tank.
One way to protect against this is to add some alcohol to your fuel to keep
the water from separating out. 8-)
Randy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bjones@dmv.com
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 6:53 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or
fiction?
What are the reasons, other than inconvenience, not to buy premium auto gas
in
5 gallon containers, pouring a can full into a larger funnel bottom
container
that has a flexible clear tube and valve at the bottom, adding a gallon of
water, shake, let the alcohol and water settleout, drain off the settleout,
and
then drain the remaing straight gas back into the original 5 gallon
container.
Multiple technical folks who deal with ethanol blended gas for the big
general
aviation organizations as well as a couple of scientists who work in the
fuel
and additive business indicate that if done properly this works although the
residual gas will have 3 to 5 octane less than the original premium auto
fuel
with 10 percent ethanol.
None could officially recommend this process on behalf of their organization
because there is an obvious environmental concern regarding disposal of the
settleout, and the inevitability of a law suite against their organization
if
someone does not do it carefully and crashes.
I bet many if not most of us routinely fuel our 912s and 582s by 5 gallon
can
anyway.
If we need the higher octane found in the original premium auto gas, we can
add
a little 100LL to boost octane without worrying about lead build up in our
engines or in our engine oil from use of straight 100LL.
I know folks are doing this and some have talked about it on this web site.
So
back to the original question. Are there one or more contraindications from
a
fuel science or engine perspective? And if so what are the contraindications
and how significant are they? Any technical types care to chime in?
Thanks
Kitfox N154K & PA 39 turbo N626NR
Bjones@dmv.com
443-480-1023
Quoting Frank Miles <f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net>:
in my engine oil.
> <f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net>
>
> One sez "don't burn 100LL" another "Don't burn fuel with ethanol". Another
> "Only burn pure mogas". The truth of the matter is that in many cases we
no
> longer have a choice. It's either 100LL, ethanol laced fuel or park it!!
> There is another alternative but not likely to come about unless we get
> someone with a bigger stick than we have. Get the fuel distributors to
stock
> some high octane fuel mogas without ethanol. In most states they, the
> distributors, can do this but they WON'T because of need to put in
> additional and separate storage capacities. It's all a matter of $$ and we
> don't have the clout! Until the subsidies for ethanol expire or are
removed,
> we are screwed!
>
> Frank Miles
> Clarkston, Washington
> K-III w/ 582
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mnflyer
> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 11:31 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
>
>
> Hi Joe you are right on with your post about Lead, but one thing wrong oil
> company Shell never mfg a full synthetic oil it was Mobil with their Mobil
1
> that had the problems and was sued and the Mobil aviation oil was / is
> history. Aeroshell,s 15W-50 is a para-synthetic and is an excellent oil
and
> takes care of lead very well.
> I burned 1/3 100LL in my 582 for over 200 hrs and it was running perfectly
> when I removed it at 297 hrs. I'd never run ethanol in my aircraft
engines.
>
> --------
> GB
> MNFlyer
> Flying a HKS Kitfox III
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198755#198755
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using Delmarva Online's Webmail.
http://www.delmarvaonline.com/
Message 12
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I agree with Noel about minimal oil on the parts. There are lubes that
claim minimal dirt attraction. Often these are features of chain lubes
for bicycles or motorcycles. I have O-rings chain lubes which claim this
feature which I figure would work well on flap tracks. They are
formulated not to attack the rubber of the O-rings and the plastics used
as guides and guards around chain drives. I've also never seen chemical
damage to paint from these lubes flung onto painted parts. As DJ said,
LPS-1 and Tru Flow (which I believe he meant to write as Tri-Flow) are
great choices and I use them too. A good hardware or auto parts store
should have them also. The trouble with spray lubes are you usually
can't control the pressure well and it oversprays onto areas you don't
want oil on.
--
Rex Hefferan
SE Colorado / K-II / 582-C / still waiting repairs
Noel Loveys wrote:
> I used to use a very light coating of light engine oil ( wipe off the
> excess ) when I worked on certified planes. Things like flap tracks on
> small Cessna aircraft was done with a very thin layer of high pressure
> grease... again all excess was wiped away so it wouldn't pick up dust.
> Most of the time when planes came in for their next scheduled
> maintenance there would be huge gobs of grease well impregnated with
> dirt on the flap tracks. Its a wonder they ever worked.
>
> My personal preference for my Kitfox pulleys etc is to use 3 in 1 for
> electric motors (Sewing machine oil?) it gives good lubrication, once
> the excess is wiped off it doesn't run and it doesn't seem to pick up
> too much dust.
>
> I'm interested in what the rest of the people around here think on
> this topic.
>
> Sigtaturea
>
> *Noel Loveys*
>
> Campbellton, NL, Canada
>
> CDN AME intern, PP-Rec
>
> C-FINB, Kitfox III-A
>
> Aerocet 1100 floats
>
> noelloveys@yahoo.ca
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?Re: 100LL/Ethano |
WOW ! What a beautiful family!
De: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] Em nome de
Catz631@aol.com
Enviada em: s=E1bado, 16 de agosto de 2008 09:44
Para: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Assunto: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or
fiction?Re:
100LL/Ethano
My two Triumph TR3's purr like a kitten on 100LL
Dick Maddux
Pensacola,
Fl
_____
Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read
<http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?ncid=aol
aut00
030000000007> reviews on AOL Autos.
_____
Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail <http://mail.terra.com.br/>
Protegido Terra.
Atualizado em 16/08/2008
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Aveoflash strobe lights |
Rick Frederick wrote:
> My wife doesn't even know about the mostly complete kitfox IV in my
> hangar.
> She thinks the extra time is spent with another woman, god forbid she
> finds out :)
>
> Rick, Kitfox IV / 912ul / 50%
> do not archive
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Catz631@aol.com <mailto:Catz631@aol.com>
> *To:* kitfox-list@matronics.com <mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 16, 2008 9:13 AM
> *Subject:* Kitfox-List: Aveoflash strobe lights
>
> Sorry I had all those misspelled words in my last post. I wrote it
> real fast and usually do a spell check but my wife woke up and
> came around the corner and asked what I was doing. I hit send. She
> doesn't know I bought these lights. OK,OK,OK but for you old
> married guys you understand.
>
> Dick Maddux
>
> Pensacola,Fl
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read
> reviews on AOL Autos
> <http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00030000000007>.
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
> *
>
> *
>
>
> *
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>
Wow,,I got rid of the wife..{she did not like pilots or airplanes}so now
I have two air planes,my KF2 and a C150.,and all so have 2 girl friends
that like pilots,and airplanes..what more can I guy ask for???Steve
Shinabery N554KF KF2 life is good :-P
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
Lowell,
What you say really makes sense to me and look obvious if comparing just the
calorific power of two fuels, but not considering the way their molecular
energy will be transformed to cinetic.
First, I'm not an engine or fuel specialist, so, as you can see I don't
understand perfectly every aspect of the subject, and I wish you forgive me
if I say any BS.
Maybe (I say maybe) it's because ethanol is harder to explode and you have
to set the engine like a supercharged one just to make it burn, but, once
it's burnt, THE ENGINE delivers more power. Because if you try to set it up
for less consumption (not leaner, but few mixture), it simply will not work.
And remember the higer CR.
I'm not saying ethanol has a high calorific power, I don't know. I'm
affirming that ethanol engines have a little more power, and also flex
engines fueled with ethanol, both cases setted up for optimal comsumption.
Fact is that ethanol has a higer power than gas on present engines, and
worse mileage.
Thats what we experience everyday, confirming what the cientists say. And
it's obvious that if they could build a better alchool system, they'd do it
due to all commercial interests we all know.
I will ask a local engeneer that may have the answer ready to satisfy you
and me.
Espuny
-----Mensagem original-----
De: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] Em nome de Lowell Fitt
Enviada em: sbado, 16 de agosto de 2008 10:48
Para: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Assunto: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
Francisco,
Please explain how ethanol delivers more power and does less work. This
sounds like a major contradiction.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Francisco Espuny" <espuny@terra.com.br>
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 7:32 PM
Subject: RES: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
> Although delivering a little more power, ethanol (100%) is proven to give
> about 30% less mileage than gas(100%). At 10% ethanol in a properly set up
> engine, you should lose just 3% .
>
>
> Espuny
>
>
> De: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] Em nome de Noel Loveys
> Enviada em: sexta-feira, 15 de agosto de 2008 22:41
> Para: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Assunto: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
>
>
> Dave:
>
>
> Just today a guy who recently moved here form southern Ontario mentioned
> to
> me he is getting a lot better fuel mileage in his pickup truck than he did
> in Ontario... Just one of the pleasant side effects of not having ethanol
> in the gas!
>
>
> As for ethanol vs. 100 LL I think I'd opt for the ethanol or even try
> washing out the eth.
>
>
> Mr. Harper was here the past two days, no one asked him how to get his
> ethanol here or what the penalty is for non-compliance. I wonder if it
> was
> an option to buy ethanol laced gas if it would sell... my bet is it would
> not... Not even for cars.
>
>
> Sigtaturea
>
>
> Noel Loveys
>
> Campbellton, NL, Canada
>
> CDN AME intern, PP-Rec
>
> C-FINB, Kitfox III-A
>
> Aerocet 1100 floats
>
> noelloveys@yahoo.ca
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dave
> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 12:59 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
>
>
>
>
> Deke & Mike ,
>
>
> 2 great informative posts.
>
>
> 100 LL gumming up fuel systems ? No i think that it has been used to NOT
> gum up fuel systems. I rarely get any issues with gumming of fuel systems.
>
>
> As far as 100 LL, I think it might be more consistent in the brewing of it
> than MOGAS . That being said Mogas or marina gas works for me pretty
> decent.
>
>
> And Deke >>
>
>> Also, be very careful of what you read here on the Internet.
>
>> Take all of it with a healthy dose of skepticism and do your own research
>
>> before you consider anything as gospel.
>
>
> This is why i respond with movies to show you that I put behind what i say
> with a video. As far as Ethanol gas ---- I fly 250 to 300 a year and all
> with ethanol gas or what ever the heck is at the pumps. AVGAS I think i
> burned 4 gals a few years ago cause a guy wanted to dump a gerry cans he
> had
> in his floats so I just ran it through a funnel and flew away :)
>
>
> --------
>
> Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
>
> Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
>
> http://www.cfisher.com/
>
> Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
>
> http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198727#198727
>
>
> to browse
>
> Un/Subscription,
>
> Browse, Chat, FAQ,
>
> more:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
>
>
> Web Forums!
>
> http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
> support!
>
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
> _____
>
> Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail <http://mail.terra.com.br/>
> Protegido Terra.
> Atualizado em 15/08/2008
>
>
Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra.
Atualizado em 16/08/2008
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
Someone told me long ago that pure gas wouldn't mix with water, but they add
detergents (zwitterion molecules) to gas to keep the engine clean, and it
allows some water to mix with as if you make a blend of oil and a little of
soap and water.
Maybe it's not true.
Espuny
-----Mensagem original-----
De: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] Em nome de Randy
Daughenbaugh
Enviada em: sbado, 16 de agosto de 2008 12:58
Para: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Assunto: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or
fiction?
<rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
Since when does water mix with gas???
Well Noel, Since the dawn of the ages I guess.
You can prove it to yourself. Get some good dry gas with no alcohol in it.
Add a small amount of water - start with 0.10% and mix it a few minutes
until it all dissolves. Add another 0.10% and mix. Repeat until you get a
water layer that will NOT dissolve. You will then know how much water will
dissolve in that particular gas at that temperature. The amount will vary
with different gas because gasoline varies in composition.
Let's say you find out it is 0.50% water that dissolves in the gas. You do
the math on how much water that is in a 20 gallon tank. I assure you that
that is enough to stop an engine if the fuel gets colder as you are flying
and the water separates out.
It would simply be foolish (or fuelish) to put yourself at risk doing this.
Randy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 8:53 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or
fiction?
Since when does water mix with gas??? True, it may take time to settle out
just as when you fill a plane with 100LL directly from the pumps you should
always wait twenty minutes before checking the sumps... it can take that
long for the water to settle out.
The whole problem is water does mix with ethanol and if there is enough
water in the ethanol and the temperature drops sufficiently you can get a
phase separation.. What separates is the water and the alcohol sinks to the
bottom where it blocks your fuel pick up while perfectly useable gas floats
on top of the water just out of reach of your engine... Talk about adding
insult to injury!
If any one was going to try this I'd recommend first putting a procedure in
place. That procedure should include a reasonable waiting period after
fuelling the plane and dripping the sumps. Perhaps a 'fuel washing service
is something FBOs could offer so individual pilots wouldn't have to have
extra special tanks lying around a half dozen or so airfields. They could
distil the ethanol effluent and use it to fuel barbecues... or something...
maybe sell it back to oil companies.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
Daughenbaugh
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 11:50 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or
fiction?
<rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
I will mention one reason to not do it. Safety.
There will be some water left in the gas phase. Just like the water phase
is contaminated with gas. You will not get it ALL out. The risk then is
that you will get further phase separation at lower temperatures (like maybe
while you are flying?). Then you run the risk of unwanted silence while up
there. All this assumes that you are really good and don't accidentally get
some of the water phase in your tank.
One way to protect against this is to add some alcohol to your fuel to keep
the water from separating out. 8-)
Randy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bjones@dmv.com
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 6:53 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or
fiction?
What are the reasons, other than inconvenience, not to buy premium auto gas
in
5 gallon containers, pouring a can full into a larger funnel bottom
container
that has a flexible clear tube and valve at the bottom, adding a gallon of
water, shake, let the alcohol and water settleout, drain off the settleout,
and
then drain the remaing straight gas back into the original 5 gallon
container.
Multiple technical folks who deal with ethanol blended gas for the big
general
aviation organizations as well as a couple of scientists who work in the
fuel
and additive business indicate that if done properly this works although the
residual gas will have 3 to 5 octane less than the original premium auto
fuel
with 10 percent ethanol.
None could officially recommend this process on behalf of their organization
because there is an obvious environmental concern regarding disposal of the
settleout, and the inevitability of a law suite against their organization
if
someone does not do it carefully and crashes.
I bet many if not most of us routinely fuel our 912s and 582s by 5 gallon
can
anyway.
If we need the higher octane found in the original premium auto gas, we can
add
a little 100LL to boost octane without worrying about lead build up in our
engines or in our engine oil from use of straight 100LL.
I know folks are doing this and some have talked about it on this web site.
So
back to the original question. Are there one or more contraindications from
a
fuel science or engine perspective? And if so what are the contraindications
and how significant are they? Any technical types care to chime in?
Thanks
Kitfox N154K & PA 39 turbo N626NR
Bjones@dmv.com
443-480-1023
Quoting Frank Miles <f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net>:
in my engine oil.
> <f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net>
>
> One sez "don't burn 100LL" another "Don't burn fuel with ethanol". Another
> "Only burn pure mogas". The truth of the matter is that in many cases we
no
> longer have a choice. It's either 100LL, ethanol laced fuel or park it!!
> There is another alternative but not likely to come about unless we get
> someone with a bigger stick than we have. Get the fuel distributors to
stock
> some high octane fuel mogas without ethanol. In most states they, the
> distributors, can do this but they WON'T because of need to put in
> additional and separate storage capacities. It's all a matter of $$ and we
> don't have the clout! Until the subsidies for ethanol expire or are
removed,
> we are screwed!
>
> Frank Miles
> Clarkston, Washington
> K-III w/ 582
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mnflyer
> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 11:31 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
>
>
> Hi Joe you are right on with your post about Lead, but one thing wrong oil
> company Shell never mfg a full synthetic oil it was Mobil with their Mobil
1
> that had the problems and was sued and the Mobil aviation oil was / is
> history. Aeroshell,s 15W-50 is a para-synthetic and is an excellent oil
and
> takes care of lead very well.
> I burned 1/3 100LL in my 582 for over 200 hrs and it was running perfectly
> when I removed it at 297 hrs. I'd never run ethanol in my aircraft
engines.
>
> --------
> GB
> MNFlyer
> Flying a HKS Kitfox III
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198755#198755
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using Delmarva Online's Webmail.
http://www.delmarvaonline.com/
Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra.
Atualizado em 16/08/2008
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? |
It is not strictly true. It is all a matter of degree. Even pure
2,2,3-trimethylpentane - commonly called iso-octane can absorb some water.
But when you get more polar compounds like toluene and xylenes in the gas it
can absorb much more. There is much effort to determine these values
accurately so the data can be used for computer modeling to design chemical
plants.
Even plexiglass plastic absorbs water. This is why Plexiglas in storm doors
bows in in the winter time.
The detergents that you mention and other additives are another good reason
not to get in the cook it yourself business with fuels.
Your point about the compression ratio for ethanol engines is a good one.
Engines with high enough compression ratios to get optimum power out of
ethanol would be destroyed quickly if fed gasoline.
Randy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Francisco
Espuny
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 1:00 PM
Subject: RES: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or
fiction?
Someone told me long ago that pure gas wouldn't mix with water, but they add
detergents (zwitterion molecules) to gas to keep the engine clean, and it
allows some water to mix with as if you make a blend of oil and a little of
soap and water.
Maybe it's not true.
Espuny
-----Mensagem original-----
De: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] Em nome de Randy
Daughenbaugh
Enviada em: sbado, 16 de agosto de 2008 12:58
Para: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Assunto: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or
fiction?
<rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
Since when does water mix with gas???
Well Noel, Since the dawn of the ages I guess.
You can prove it to yourself. Get some good dry gas with no alcohol in it.
Add a small amount of water - start with 0.10% and mix it a few minutes
until it all dissolves. Add another 0.10% and mix. Repeat until you get a
water layer that will NOT dissolve. You will then know how much water will
dissolve in that particular gas at that temperature. The amount will vary
with different gas because gasoline varies in composition.
Let's say you find out it is 0.50% water that dissolves in the gas. You do
the math on how much water that is in a 20 gallon tank. I assure you that
that is enough to stop an engine if the fuel gets colder as you are flying
and the water separates out.
It would simply be foolish (or fuelish) to put yourself at risk doing this.
Randy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 8:53 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or
fiction?
Since when does water mix with gas??? True, it may take time to settle out
just as when you fill a plane with 100LL directly from the pumps you should
always wait twenty minutes before checking the sumps... it can take that
long for the water to settle out.
The whole problem is water does mix with ethanol and if there is enough
water in the ethanol and the temperature drops sufficiently you can get a
phase separation.. What separates is the water and the alcohol sinks to the
bottom where it blocks your fuel pick up while perfectly useable gas floats
on top of the water just out of reach of your engine... Talk about adding
insult to injury!
If any one was going to try this I'd recommend first putting a procedure in
place. That procedure should include a reasonable waiting period after
fuelling the plane and dripping the sumps. Perhaps a 'fuel washing service
is something FBOs could offer so individual pilots wouldn't have to have
extra special tanks lying around a half dozen or so airfields. They could
distil the ethanol effluent and use it to fuel barbecues... or something...
maybe sell it back to oil companies.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
Daughenbaugh
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 11:50 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or
fiction?
<rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
I will mention one reason to not do it. Safety.
There will be some water left in the gas phase. Just like the water phase
is contaminated with gas. You will not get it ALL out. The risk then is
that you will get further phase separation at lower temperatures (like maybe
while you are flying?). Then you run the risk of unwanted silence while up
there. All this assumes that you are really good and don't accidentally get
some of the water phase in your tank.
One way to protect against this is to add some alcohol to your fuel to keep
the water from separating out. 8-)
Randy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bjones@dmv.com
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 6:53 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or
fiction?
What are the reasons, other than inconvenience, not to buy premium auto gas
in
5 gallon containers, pouring a can full into a larger funnel bottom
container
that has a flexible clear tube and valve at the bottom, adding a gallon of
water, shake, let the alcohol and water settleout, drain off the settleout,
and
then drain the remaing straight gas back into the original 5 gallon
container.
Multiple technical folks who deal with ethanol blended gas for the big
general
aviation organizations as well as a couple of scientists who work in the
fuel
and additive business indicate that if done properly this works although the
residual gas will have 3 to 5 octane less than the original premium auto
fuel
with 10 percent ethanol.
None could officially recommend this process on behalf of their organization
because there is an obvious environmental concern regarding disposal of the
settleout, and the inevitability of a law suite against their organization
if
someone does not do it carefully and crashes.
I bet many if not most of us routinely fuel our 912s and 582s by 5 gallon
can
anyway.
If we need the higher octane found in the original premium auto gas, we can
add
a little 100LL to boost octane without worrying about lead build up in our
engines or in our engine oil from use of straight 100LL.
I know folks are doing this and some have talked about it on this web site.
So
back to the original question. Are there one or more contraindications from
a
fuel science or engine perspective? And if so what are the contraindications
and how significant are they? Any technical types care to chime in?
Thanks
Kitfox N154K & PA 39 turbo N626NR
Bjones@dmv.com
443-480-1023
Quoting Frank Miles <f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net>:
in my engine oil.
> <f.miles.tcp.833@clearwire.net>
>
> One sez "don't burn 100LL" another "Don't burn fuel with ethanol". Another
> "Only burn pure mogas". The truth of the matter is that in many cases we
no
> longer have a choice. It's either 100LL, ethanol laced fuel or park it!!
> There is another alternative but not likely to come about unless we get
> someone with a bigger stick than we have. Get the fuel distributors to
stock
> some high octane fuel mogas without ethanol. In most states they, the
> distributors, can do this but they WON'T because of need to put in
> additional and separate storage capacities. It's all a matter of $$ and we
> don't have the clout! Until the subsidies for ethanol expire or are
removed,
> we are screwed!
>
> Frank Miles
> Clarkston, Washington
> K-III w/ 582
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mnflyer
> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 11:31 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction?
>
>
> Hi Joe you are right on with your post about Lead, but one thing wrong oil
> company Shell never mfg a full synthetic oil it was Mobil with their Mobil
1
> that had the problems and was sued and the Mobil aviation oil was / is
> history. Aeroshell,s 15W-50 is a para-synthetic and is an excellent oil
and
> takes care of lead very well.
> I burned 1/3 100LL in my 582 for over 200 hrs and it was running perfectly
> when I removed it at 297 hrs. I'd never run ethanol in my aircraft
engines.
>
> --------
> GB
> MNFlyer
> Flying a HKS Kitfox III
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198755#198755
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using Delmarva Online's Webmail.
http://www.delmarvaonline.com/
Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra.
Atualizado em 16/08/2008
Message 18
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|
| Subject: | Level Point for KF2 |
I need to know where the level point is in a KF 2 with a 582 rotax.I
need to get my KF2 re weighted.Steve Shinabery N554KF KF2.. Thanks
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Level Point for KF2 |
Level the bottom of the fuselage each way using good carpenters level.
Dee Young
Model II
N345DY
Do not archive
Message 20
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|
| Subject: | Re: Staples for poly attach to ribs |
I ribbed stitched mine, it only took a weekend to do both wings, and it was a
rather satisfying project.
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198994#198994
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Progress report S5 test flying |
On my series 5 with a Maule Tundra tailwheel I have significant tailwheel
chatter on landing if the springs are not tight, so this might be something
to keep in mind.
Header tank, I covered with aluminum heating and cooling tape. Very
effective for blocking out light. Also some flickering is normal, and seems
to increase as you get lower and lower on fuel
Don't get complacent! Remember your engine install and everything else
is still new. You can get mighty comfortable pretty fast when you fly it
every day, and things can still fail when you don't expect it.
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198996#198996
Message 22
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Does anyone have a set of model 4 main gear they would sell? Hoping
someone changed out to Grove gear and has some leftovers. Larry
Larry Huntley 4-1200 Soob
asq@roadrunner.com
607 292 6318
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
11 AM
Message 23
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Should have mentioned,don't need the wheels and axles,just the gear
legs. Larry
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
11 AM
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Model 4 gear |
Larry,
My new - 1992 - kit came with tube gear and I will be using the taller
cabane style gear. Can you handle b;ue powder coat? Contact me off list.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Huntley" <asq@roadrunner.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 6:02 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Model 4 gear
Should have mentioned,don't need the wheels and axles,just the gear legs.
Larry
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
11 AM
Message 25
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| Subject: | Staples for poly attach to ribs |
I used the staples on my KFIV. It has the newer wing and stitching is opti
onal anyway. Fast and effective. Ron NB Ore KFIV Avid A C152> Date: Sat
=2C 16 Aug 2008 09:46:08 -0400> From: hcieslar@cabletv.on.ca> To: kitfox-li
st@matronics.com> Subject: Kitfox-List: Staples for poly attach to ribs> >
> Anyone with experience on SS Staples attaching polyfiber to wood ribs. >
My Avid Magnum manual describes this method but no one uses it that I > kno
w? all tend to use rib stitching. Any experienced builders that have > used
this vs rib lacing?> Harry Cieslar =2C Avid Magnum Project=2C ON=2C Canada
======> > >
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