---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 08/18/08: 49 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:39 AM - Re: Model 4 gear (Larry Huntley) 2. 04:59 AM - Re: Aveoflash strobe lights (Catz631@aol.com) 3. 05:02 AM - Re: 912s installation (Chenoweth) 4. 05:42 AM - Re: Lacquer thinners (Lynn Matteson) 5. 06:31 AM - Re: Aveoflash strobe lights (rawheels) 6. 06:32 AM - Re: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (Noel Loveys) 7. 06:48 AM - Re: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction (Noel Loveys) 8. 07:06 AM - Re: 912s installation (dcsfoto) 9. 07:20 AM - Re: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (Noel Loveys) 10. 07:30 AM - Re: Re: 912s installation (Jim_and_Lucy Chuk) 11. 07:56 AM - RES: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (Francisco Espuny) 12. 08:12 AM - RES: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction (Francisco Espuny) 13. 08:16 AM - Re: 912s installation (Noel Loveys) 14. 08:20 AM - RES: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (Francisco Espuny) 15. 08:57 AM - Re: Re: Aveoflash strobe lights (Lowell Fitt) 16. 09:04 AM - Re: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction (Chuck Popenoe) 17. 09:42 AM - Re: Re: 912s installation (Noel Loveys) 18. 09:46 AM - Re: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction (Randy Daughenbaugh) 19. 09:53 AM - Re: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction (Noel Loveys) 20. 09:57 AM - Re: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (Noel Loveys) 21. 10:03 AM - Re: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (Noel Loveys) 22. 10:06 AM - Re: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction (Noel Loveys) 23. 10:17 AM - RES: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction (Francisco Espuny) 24. 10:31 AM - Re: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction (ronlee) 25. 10:46 AM - Re: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction (rawheels) 26. 01:23 PM - Re: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction (Bob Brennan) 27. 01:31 PM - Re: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction (Bob Brennan) 28. 01:41 PM - Re: Re: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction (Bob Brennan) 29. 01:42 PM - Re: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction (Dave) 30. 01:53 PM - RES: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (Francisco Espuny) 31. 02:06 PM - Re: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction (Bob Brennan) 32. 03:38 PM - Re: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction (Randy Daughenbaugh) 33. 03:54 PM - Re: Lacquer thinners (gary.algate@sandvik.com) 34. 03:55 PM - Re: Re: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction (Randy Daughenbaugh) 35. 04:00 PM - Re: Re: Aveoflash strobe lights (gary.algate@sandvik.com) 36. 04:18 PM - Re: Re: Aveoflash strobe lights (Pete Christensen) 37. 04:33 PM - Re: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction (Bob Brennan) 38. 05:04 PM - Re: Lacquer thinners (Lynn Matteson) 39. 05:09 PM - Re: Re: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction (Noel Loveys) 40. 05:21 PM - Re: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction (Noel Loveys) 41. 05:24 PM - Re: Re: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction (Noel Loveys) 42. 05:35 PM - Re: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (Noel Loveys) 43. 05:52 PM - Re: Re: 2 stroke oil - Pennzoil update (Noel Loveys) 44. 06:05 PM - Re: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (Dave) 45. 06:25 PM - RES: Re: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction (Francisco Espuny) 46. 06:59 PM - RES: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? (Francisco Espuny) 47. 08:20 PM - Re: Re: 912s installation (CDE2fly@aol.com) 48. 08:32 PM - Re Gear leg steps (gary.algate@sandvik.com) 49. 08:48 PM - Re: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction (Guy Buchanan) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:39:00 AM PST US From: "Larry Huntley" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Model 4 gear Good morning Folks, I thank you all for your responses to my request for kitfox gear. I will be picking up a set nearby soon. I appreciate that so many responded both on and off list to help me out of dilemma. I had a fuel problem and had to land ( semi-controlled crash) in a very short hayfield with a very steep upslope. A self induced groundloop wiped out the gear ,but kept me out of the trees. Fuselage was bent at the gear fittings ,but won't take a lot to repair. Needs a bit of new tubing and a lot of time. It is all stripped down now and rhe fuselage is ready to go into the rotissiare . Repairs will have to wait til winter. Have to finish up a couple of other projects first. Larry Huntley .4-1200 , Soob Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com :58 PM ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:59:04 AM PST US From: Catz631@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Aveoflash strobe lights Lynn- I have a basic camera (handheld) with no tripod. Take a look at the Aug 1 Kitplanes blog site.They have a nice picture and a nice article. The strobes are adjustable for the flash pattern. Dick Maddux Pensacola,Fl **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00030000000007 ) ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:02:05 AM PST US From: "Chenoweth" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 912s installation Noel, Well, I'm in it past the point of no return. An odd thing is that Kitfox told me that they knew the studs on the water pump had to be adjusted but didn't do it while my new engine was in their shop - so I've returned the housing to them which I gather they are going to modify for free. My current problem is trying to use the existing very nice, very expensive Rotax fuel line set up from pump to carbs. With the carbs moved outboard and left on their original sides (per Kitfox manual instructions) the fuel line is too short. I can't tell from your pictures if you kept the carbs on their original sides or swapped them. I'm pretty sure if I swap the carbs I can keep the fuel line but I'm guessing there is a good reason for what Kitfox says to do. Regards, Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: Noel Loveys To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 3:37 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 912s installation I'm in the throwes of doing just that to my model III-A which I expect is actually closer to a model II. I'm using the model IV Dynafocal mount and the first thing I've found is attaching the engione to the mount is probably easier to do before installing in the plane. One other item is the cooling hoses from the water pump to the cylinder heads will require having the studs (45 deg) will need to be turned a bit to get a decent access to putting the hoses on the pump. You may also need to turn the 45 deg studs on the aft cylinders to get a decent clearance on the aft hoses. These studs are held in place with green locktite ( penetrating) and will need to be very carefully heated to remove, clean and reinstall in the correct direction. It was advised to me that Llight Engine Rep[airs uses a rod turned down on a lathe to insert into the studs for removal. I don't happen to have a lathe or any 1" aluminium stock so I had to substitute brass and a file. If you want to try this remember the old rule don't grind anything that doesn't spark so use a file. It may take a lot longer but it will be worth it. Also be careful removing the top of the pump.. you may want to do that to get a better grasp on the part and to remove the O-ring that is inside the pump inlet. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:42:03 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Lacquer thinners You're welcome, Gary. The cleanup of parts continues, and I have ordered parts, including a new crankshaft. There was just a little too much rubbing on the nose of the crank that had happened when the gear teeth got between the crank and the cam gears, and I wasn't comfortable with the way it looked. I'll keep the old crank and maybe get some help locally to see if a new design could be made that uses a less-fragile crank gear. Pete (Jab dealer in Tennessee) told me he had 2 crankshafts in stock, and most of the other parts....valves, guides, o-ring set, etc,....but not the gear case cover that I will need. Actually, that is almost the last part to be installed, so I could completely reassemble the engine while I wait for that to arrive. I need to contact Pete to see the time schedule for parts to get here. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs and holding for repairs Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink Floyd..."Learning to Fly") do not archive On Aug 18, 2008, at 12:25 AM, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote: > > Hi Lynn. > > As always, thanks a lot! > > I'll manufacture the steps here and save you the hassles. I'll also > check with Aviaquip here and see if they the flattening agent etc > as I will have to buy the paint from them anyway. > > How are the engine repairs coming along? > > best regards > > Gary > > Gary Algate > Classic 4 / Jab2200 > Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655 > > > This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the > addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of > this message by persons or entities other than the intended > recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, > kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the > message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for > any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may > arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. > > > Lynn Matteson > Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > 18/08/2008 11:32 AM > Please respond to > kitfox-list@matronics.com > > To > kitfox-list@matronics.com > cc > Subject > Re: Kitfox-List: Lacquer thinners > > > > You'll have to add Polyfiber's Flattener, which according to their > rep is merely baby powder...or is it talcum powder?....in a fluid. I > got the real stuff rather than experiment, but then I'm closer to the > source than you. Want me to get some and send it to your Ontario > office? > > I didn't do anything...oh, wait, you've got the tube and bungee gear, > which is taller than the Grove. Short guys like me NEED the Grove > gear to facilitate egress and degress (or whatever gettin' in and > gettin' out means in big words). > > Lucky you, I just happen to have part #63900.000...Landing gear > step...in my hot little hands. They are nothing more than a 1/8" > aluminum angle, 1 1/2" wide on both flanges, and 7" long, bent to a > 76.5 (or so) angle, instead of the normal 90. These would be easy > for you to make over there, but they're yours for the asking. If > you've got some way to get them from your Canadian address to > Aussieland, I'll send them along. I could even include a splash of > the flattener...not much of the stuff is needed. Let me know, maybe > by direct email? > > > Lynn Matteson > Kitfox IV Speedster > Jabiru 2200 > Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink > Floyd..."Learning to Fly") > do not archive > > > On Aug 17, 2008, at 7:33 PM, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gary Algate > > Sandvik Mining and Construction Australia > > Exploration > > +61 8 8276 7655 > > 18/08/2008 08:37 AM > > To > > kitfox-list@matronics.com > > cc > > Subject > > Re: Kitfox-List: Lacquer thinnersLink > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Lynn > > > > I have never used the Polyfiber enamel - does it have a low gloss > > like the Polytone? - As I have only under-coated so far I have time > > to get some enamel. > > > > I don't want to end up with high gloss wheel pants. > > > > At the moment they are fitted and I went for a brief flight > > yesterday (including some long grass taxiing) and all appeared OK. > > > > One thing I did notice is that it's now quite difficult to get into > > the plane so I am considering a step mounted to the gear leg. > > > > What did you do with yours? > > > > Regards > > > > Gary > > > > Gary Algate > > ] > > > > > > > > This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the > > addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of > > this message by persons or entities other than the intended > > recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, > > kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the > > message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for > > any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may > > arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lynn Matteson > > Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > > 15/08/2008 11:43 PM > > Please respond to > > kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > > To > > kitfox-list@matronics.com > > cc > > Subject > > Re: Kitfox-List: Lacquer thinners > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's exactly what I was told to do and did, when it came time to > > spray my flaperon hinge brackets. I knew that they would eventually > > be attached to the wing and then shot with Polytone, so I did the > > Polybrush "tacky", then shot with Polyspray and eventually Polytone. > > However, reading (sometimes my worst enemy) the literature, I chose > > to shoot larger metal and fiberglas parts with Polyfiber Enamel. > > > > I was wondering what Wayne had to say...thanks for keeping up > with it. > > > > One small thought about getting the gallon of Polytone reducer...if > > you have the left-over sitting on your shelf, you'll probably never > > need to use it, but if you don't have any sitting around....look out > > for small accidents, hangar rash, etc...it's a take-off on Murphy's > > Law. : ) > > > > Lynn Matteson > > Kitfox IV Speedster > > Jabiru 2200 > > Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink > > Floyd..."Learning to Fly") > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 14, 2008, at 10:06 PM, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote: > > > > > > > > Lynn - you are dead right it is for the wheel pants. I have had > > > pretty good success in the past with polytone on Fibreglass (even > > > though it's not really recommended). I think the biggest > problem is > > > the bond and in the past I have applied a light primer coat and > > > while it's still "just" tacky I applied the Polytone. > > > > > > Best regards > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > By the way -no response yet from Wayne re your questions - He is > > > travelling at the moment but he will get back to me. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > Gary Algate > > > Classic 4 Jab 2200A > > > Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655 > > > > > > > > > This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the > > > addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of > > > this message by persons or entities other than the intended > > > recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in > error, > > > kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the > > > message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for > > > any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may > > > arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lynn Matteson > > > Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > > > 15/08/2008 11:22 AM > > > Please respond to > > > kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > > > > To > > > kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > cc > > > Subject > > > Re: Kitfox-List: Lacquer thinners > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can get "lacquer thinner" at most hardware stores, but like > the > > > one poster said make sure of what it is (or something like > that). I > > > don't know what that means except to be sure you read the label. I > > > figured that lacquer thinner was lacquer thinner, but maybe > they are > > > not all created equally. Sorry I can't be more helpful, Gary. > Maybe > > > you should just bite the bullet and get that one gallon that > > Aviaquip > > > offered. As far as my own experience is concerned, the stuff lasts > > > for a long time in the tightly-sealed can, so it won't go to > waste. > > > The Polytone reducer is formulated for application in either > cooler > > > or warmer temperatures, and comes in different part numbers > > depending > > > on the temperature of the air when it is applied. > > > > > > A question: are you using the Polytone to paint your wheels > > pants? Is > > > that why you're looking for Polytone reducer? If so, that's the > > wrong > > > stuff to use on hard surfaces, I was told. I was just putting 2 > > and 2 > > > together, and thought you might be painting your wheel pants...if > > > not, I'll keep quiet. : ) > > > > > > Lynn Matteson > > > Kitfox IV Speedster > > > Jabiru 2200 > > > Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink > > > Floyd..."Learning to Fly") > > > do not archive > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 14, 2008, at 8:39 PM, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > can somebody give me an explanation of what "lacquer > thinners" are > > > > - I know if I ask the guy at the auto shop here he probably > won't > > > > know what I mean and I know most of you guys in the USC will be > > > > shutting down soon . > > > > > > > > I am assuming it is the thinners for auto paint (not enamel or > > > > Urethane) ?? > > > > > > > > Friday here so I want to get it for the weekend. > > > > > > > > regards > > > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gary Algate > > > > Classic 4 Jab2200A > > > > Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655 > > > > > > > > > > > > This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the > > > > addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or > copying of > > > > this message by persons or entities other than the intended > > > > recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in > > error, > > > > kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and > delete the > > > > message from your system. The sender does not accept > liability for > > > > any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which > may > > > > arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. _- > > > > www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List _- > > > > www.matronics.com/contribution _- > > > > ================================== > > > > > > > > > - > > > - > > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List _- > > > www.matronics.com/contribution _- > > > ================================== > > > > > > - > > - > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List _- > www.matronics.com/contribution _- > =========================================================== ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:31:31 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Aveoflash strobe lights From: "rawheels" The CreativAir LED strobes looked pretty interesting at Oshkosh too: http://www.creativair.com/ -------- Ryan Wheeler Kitfox IV-1200 Indianapolis, IN Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=199237#199237 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:15 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? I really don't think the exhaust systems are a weak point. Ethanol burns at a lower temperature than gasoline and I'd be surprised if the exhaust while having a higher water content may not be as corrosive, especially to stainless steel exhaust parts. BTW what is the freezing point of ethanol? I never considered it turning to slush at arctic temperatures. I am not that far north but I have seen -60 for almost a full week in Labrador several years ago. At that temperature Liquid propane will not vaporize so it cannot be used to heat or cook with from a cylinder. I realize the engines probably don't have variable compression ratios but without that they cannot be true flexible fuel units. The EFI and CDI processor controlled injectors and ignition is a good start only if they also have the sensors developed and installed to analyze the fuel. I doubt they actually go through the expense of that but just continually adjust the tune of the car for a reasonably smooth engine operation. Either that or the engines have been built from the crank up only to operate efficiently on ethanol. I doubt the latter because most of the world is still using either Diesel or gasoline and they have to make their cars for the world market. You can be sure mass manufacturers will do whatever they consider to be the cheapest. As for importing ethanol from countries like your own, where it is made from excess cane, there is as much chance of that happening as there is of striking oil in the backyard. Farming lobbies who are now being plied with money to produce ethanol crops would revolt and I can't say I'd blame them. The only answer is an alternate form of fuel. Then northern famers can return their fields to food production and the whole world benefits. I've said it several times before and I'll say it again... We have a fuel supply problem... Ethanol isn't the answer ( at least in the north ) Ethanol is preventing a good viable answer from being found. I only mentioned the use of ethanol in diesel engines because it was mentioned to me that it was being used to fuel the big tractors used in corn production. My point was that just won't work because the injector pumps just won't stand up the low viscosity of ethanol. Bio diesel is interesting but again only to make fuel from used food product. Ie. Making fuel from used cooking oil. BTW all organic fuels when burned do give off a very poisonous gas, as I understand it the quantity is quite low but multiplied by the quantities several hundred million engines would produce and it could be a much worse problem than CO2. I have been told Ethanol actually gives off more CO2 than gasoline...just not at the tailpipe. Ethanol supporters say the CO2 produced in the fermentation process can be captured and put into welding tanks and soft drinks... First there is only so much soda any one can drink and once it is opened it eventually will be released to the atmosphere. The same thing is true of CO2 welding shield gas... 100% of it is just released to the atmosphere. Where is the drop in CO2 actually entering the atmosphere?? Your country is an exception that makes the rule... You have excesses of raw material. You don't have tens of millions of cars and you don't have to transport ethanol thousands of miles to get to the end customers. If I lived in such a land I'd certainly use ethanol in my car, truck or boat but I think I'd think long and hard before putting it in my plane. Another thing that has not been mentioned is in the event of an accident ethanol flames are invisible. Couple that with the increased volatility of the fuel and it becomes very dangerous to survivors and rescuers in the event of an accident where the fuel tanks may be opened or leaking. I also agree with you that with the advent of EFI and high CR engines a lot of the problems you had with ethanol will no doubt have disappeared. Your engines won't last as long but you may not keep the car that long any way. Manufacturers have a long way to go to make ethanol universally acceptable. Additives to give flame colour and reduce the organic gasses need to be developed. Methods of transport and storage need to be developed. In the meantime we could be developing solar, wind and Geo-thermal sources of energy not to mention better batteries for electric vehicles and hydrogen fuel sources just to name a few. Noel ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:48:34 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction I'll answer your question with a question... What's wrong with using a mixture of say 3/4 washed gas to remove the ethanol and 1/4 100LL? That way you get a very low lead content fuel with no ethanol and an octane rating of greater than 91. Someone mentioned on this thread that gas will absorb water... They then went on to describe something less than .05%. After thinking on it a while I've come up with three considerations. 1 the gas is only able to absorb a very small limited amount of water where ethanol will dissolve and dilute in any quantity of water. 2 the gas at your station probably is already saturated with whatever water it can because most gasoline has travelled through pipelines. Water is used in pipelines to separate shipments of petro shipments. 3. The ethanol you are washing out has more affinity for water than gas. Therefore unless you use an ocean of water to clean your gas the probability is you will actually remove the water content of the gasoline. For those reasons I have come to the conclusion that there is no danger of saturating your gas with water by washing the ethanol out of it. A worst case scenario is there will be less moisture in the fuel after "washing" than before "washing". Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frank Miles Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 7:38 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction Guys, here's a dumb question, maybe. Short of just not flying, what is wrong with burning a mixture of 1/2 ethanol fuel and 1/2 100LL? Half as much ethanol and half as much low lead. How much low lead would a person have to burn to really harm an engine? I am speaking of only the two cycle engines. Frank Miles K-lll w/ 582 Clarkston, Washington -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of K&MCozik Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 2:45 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction I agree Bob. Not sure how others are getting away with ethanol but the fuel that started dissolving my tank was 10%. My guess is the guys using car gas without issue have less than 1 or 2% ethanol, if any at all. I'll stick with 100LL since ethanol free is impossible to find here in Michigan. Kevin Cozik Series 6-7 914 turbo Czech floats Lansing MI On Sun Aug 17 13:25 , 'Bob Brennan' sent: > > >Personally measured >and observed facts anyway, and as little opinion as >possible. >B >Getting ready for my >first flight since importing my KF2 from the UK almost 2 years ago, I decided to >take what knowledge I had gained from the ethanol debates and apply it, and I am >glad that I did. Here is what I have found so far: >B >In the UK I used >"regular" petrol rated at 89 octane and I never tested for ethanol, although my >UK built plane is placarded in a number of places warning *not* to use fuel with >any alcohol in it. >B >I periodically >ran-up the engine for a year and a half on US regular gas bought a year and a >half ago. I know - stale gas, bad move, yada yada... I have already chastised >myself on that one. >B >I bought new >"regular" (87 octane, Sam's Club) about a month ago and drained the system of >the old gas. I then began noticing dark fuel and black sediment when draining >the sump before starting the engine. >B >Much to my chagrin I >noticed my fuel drain tool, bought in the UK years ago, was actually a >calibrated alcohol tester so I decided to buy and test some local fuel to find >something acceptable to fly with. Here is what I found, on this date in >Wrightsville &York PA: >B >Sam's Club Regular - >$3.44/gal - stated as 87 octane - tested as 6% ethanol >Rutter's >PremiumB - $3.85/gal - stated as 93 octane - tested as 5% >ethanol >Turkey Hill Premium >- $3.75/gal - stated asB 92 octane - tested as 0% >ethanol >B >The Turkey Hill gas >is in my plane, the rest went in my Jeep, and I will buy and test Turkey Hill >regular for the rest of my gas-powered toys in future, hoping that also is >ethanol free. At least for now. >B >Now for an opinion - >contrary to listers who said they use ethanol with no problems - I assume my >short use of ethanol-laced regularB (never flying) caused a breakdown of >rubber fuel elements, true to warnings posted everywhere and the cause of the >drained fuel contamination. I will carefully watch for any further contamination >(I expect a little yet) and will then replace lines and filter(s). Note that I >never ran the engine until all contaminants were drained >out. >B >As stated throughout >- this is all "for what it's worth" - but I try to base it on experience rather >than opinion, andB can post more test results if anyone is interested. Live >and loin, I always say... >B >B >Bob Brennan >1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox >Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop >Wrightsville Pa >B > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:06:20 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: 912s installation From: "dcsfoto" What Model Kitfox. I just did a Model 7, sent the water pump to them for mods ( free ) and did not do anything to the carbs. the water line out of the pump is a pain. I went and got a 1" copper pipe (6") and a 45 ELL soldered in a couple of inch stub pipe and it worked great. David Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=199254#199254 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:20:13 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? 2. Fuelling the cars you mentioned on ethanol would require taking the driver out an flogging him/her severely with a wet codfish! J 3. hydrated ethanol would be easier to make and handle than ethanol which is virtually water free at the refinery. Water is the enemy and it is the reason I wouldn't use it in an aircraft engine. 4. we are still using the old Wheaton bridge resistance float type gas gauges in our cars. From the sounds of things you are using a capacitance type volume indicator similar to what is used on larger planes. That would be a great advancement. Not only do you get faster readings but you get them without the use of moving parts... One less part to wear out in the fuel tank 5. I live in Newfoundland, an island in the North Atlantic. We don't have a commercial corn crop here. Neither do we have a way to get ethanol here in anything larger than a keg ( the way I like to get it!) So the chances we will ever see E anything here is remote. Shippers don't want to put it in their ships and it has to be added at the distribution point. The only way that could be done is by shipping it in here as pure ethanol in specially built sealed trucks. Even then I doubt quantities would be sufficient to make E10 for all our gas. I have seen a few new minivans sporting the flex fuel badges but they have to be fuelled with straight gasoline. E85 or E100 will probably turn up here ten minutes after you know where freezes over. In the mean time we will see exactly how flex those vehicles really are by how well they handle the gasoline. Rotax and Jabiru are much higher technology than the Lycoming and Continental engines. They were designed to TBO at close to double the time on the older engines. The presence of lead will add all the problems the older engines had. As for ethanol use the engines would want to have the heads planed a few thousandths or special pistons to increase the CR and then all the seals may need to be changed. Rotax and Jab won't do that at this time because there are just too many countries where good MOGAS is available. Noel ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:30:45 AM PST US From: Jim_and_Lucy Chuk Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: 912s installation Hi David=2C can you post a picture? Thanks=2C Jim Chuk Kitfox 4 buildin g Mn> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: 912s installation> From: david@kelm.com> D ate: Mon=2C 18 Aug 2008 07:05:55 -0700> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com> > -- itfox.> I just did a Model 7=2C sent the water pump to them for mods ( free ) and did not do anything to the carbs.> the water line out of the pump is a pain. I went and got a 1" copper pipe (6")> and a 45 ELL soldered in a c ouple of inch stub pipe and it worked great.> > > David> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=199254# ============> > > _________________________________________________________________ Get thousands of games on your PC=2C your mobile phone=2C and the web with Windows=AE. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:56:57 AM PST US From: "Francisco Espuny" Subject: RES: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? Hi, Noel , I really don=92t think the exhaust systems are a weak point. Ethanol burns at a lower temperature than gasoline and I=92d be surprised if the exhaust while having a higher water content may not be as corrosive, especially to stainless steel exhaust parts. There's a lot of water and the first thing we notice long ago was early exhaust corrosion. I realize the engines probably don=92t have variable compression ratios but without that they cannot be true flexible fuel units. You're right, but it works very well. The EFI and CDI processor controlled injectors and ignition is a good start only if they also have the sensors developed and installed to analyze the fuel. They have it. I told you twice. I doubt they actually go through the expense of that but just continually adjust the tune of the car for a reasonably smooth engine operation. Try one. I drive my flex GM pickup everyday. It's fine. Either that or the engines have been built from the crank up only to operate efficiently on ethanol. I doubt the latter because most of the world is still using either Diesel or gasoline and they have to make their cars for the world market. You can be sure mass manufacturers will do whatever they consider to be the cheapest. Maybe, but consummers make high pressure on quality levels and performance. The factories research a lot because there's too much competition. As for importing ethanol from countries like your own, where it is made from excess cane, there is as much chance of that happening as there is of striking oil in the backyard. Farming lobbies who are now being plied with money to produce ethanol crops would revolt and I can=92t say I=92d blame them. The only answer is an alternate form of fuel. Then northern famers can return their fields to food production and the whole world benefits. I=92ve said it several times before and I=92ll say it again... We have a fuel supply problem... Ethanol isn=92t the answer ( at least in the north ) Ethanol is preventing a good viable answer from being found. The best present alternative is always one we do have available. Better a non-perfect reality than a perfect dream never come true. I have been told Ethanol actually gives off more CO2 than gasoline...just not at the tailpipe. Ethanol supporters say the CO2 produced in the fermentation process can be captured and put into welding tanks and soft drinks... First there is only so much soda any one can drink and once it is opened it eventually will be released to the atmosphere. The same thing is true of CO2 welding shield gas... 100% of it is just released to the atmosphere. Where is the drop in CO2 actually entering the atmosphere?? You're right again. There's too much CO2 resulting from fermentation and it goes into the air. And I don't believe the're gonna compress it into cylinders and send it to Coca-Cola. You don=92t have tens of millions of cars and you don=92t have to transport ethanol thousands of miles to get to the end customers. If I lived in such a land I=92d certainly use ethanol in my car, truck or boat but I think I=92d think long and hard before putting it in my plane. We have about 30.000.000 running cars and considering trucks and other, the number goes to 50.000.000 (source is annual license taxes paid at each state). Ethanol is truck-transported for several thousand miles, as gas is, because production is concentrated in a wide but limited area today. That's why costs vary so much inside my country. There are also tank ships exporting our ethanol with no problems. I wouldn't put it in my plane too. Not now. Another thing that has not been mentioned is in the event of an accident ethanol flames are invisible. Couple that with the increased volatility of the fuel and it becomes very dangerous to survivors and rescuers in the event of an accident where the fuel tanks may be opened or leaking. Same problem happend to wood made methanol fueled racing cars. They can add something to the fuel that makes flames visible if necessary, as they did in USA. I also agree with you that with the advent of EFI and high CR engines a lot of the problems you had with ethanol will no doubt have disappeared. Your engines won=92t last as long but you may not keep the car that long any way. Manufacturers have a long way to go to make ethanol universally acceptable. Additives to give flame colour and reduce the organic gasses need to be developed. Methods of transport and storage need to be developed. In the meantime we could be developing solar, wind and Geo-thermal sources of energy not to mention better batteries for electric vehicles and hydrogen fuel sources just to name a few. Our engines lasts very long. A garage owner was telling me that he is worried about the decrease of demand because today's cars don't have to be fixed so often.. Things are never perfect, and the whole society is always evolving. People use to say that if we are always waiting for perfection we'll have nothing to enjoy. Let's really find a practic way to fuel our planes now without major costs increase or parts to be changed. What I really want to Know by now is which are the AVGAS engines possibilities for powering a Kitfox. There are few true Kitfox here and there's a copy they call "Kitfox =C1guia" (Kitfox Hawk) but I want an original. I've found two, but there were problems and didn't buy it. And know I'm affraid because almost 100% of Kitfox planes here are Rotax powered and we have this question about ethanol gas and AVGAS. Our auto gas may contain 25% ethanol ! Some people say AVGAS is not for Rotax (factory did not answer me yet). So I think the way is to keep flying the Piper and purchase a Super Sport kit and prepare it to a certified AVGAS engine, if possible. I'll write to Kitfox , but personnal experience is always more valuable. So, If anyone is flying a plane setted-up this way, I'd appreciate any advice. Espuny Espuny _____ Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. Atualizado em 18/08/2008 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:12:48 AM PST US From: "Francisco Espuny" Subject: RES: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction Makes sense. But is there any additive that could be washed along with the ethanol? Any necessary bipolar compound of gas... Espuny -----Mensagem original----- De: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] Em nome de Noel Loveys Enviada em: segunda-feira, 18 de agosto de 2008 10:47 Para: kitfox-list@matronics.com Assunto: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction I'll answer your question with a question... What's wrong with using a mixture of say 3/4 washed gas to remove the ethanol and 1/4 100LL? That way you get a very low lead content fuel with no ethanol and an octane rating of greater than 91. Someone mentioned on this thread that gas will absorb water... They then went on to describe something less than .05%. After thinking on it a while I've come up with three considerations. 1 the gas is only able to absorb a very small limited amount of water where ethanol will dissolve and dilute in any quantity of water. 2 the gas at your station probably is already saturated with whatever water it can because most gasoline has travelled through pipelines. Water is used in pipelines to separate shipments of petro shipments. 3. The ethanol you are washing out has more affinity for water than gas. Therefore unless you use an ocean of water to clean your gas the probability is you will actually remove the water content of the gasoline. For those reasons I have come to the conclusion that there is no danger of saturating your gas with water by washing the ethanol out of it. A worst case scenario is there will be less moisture in the fuel after "washing" than before "washing". Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frank Miles Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 7:38 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction Guys, here's a dumb question, maybe. Short of just not flying, what is wrong with burning a mixture of 1/2 ethanol fuel and 1/2 100LL? Half as much ethanol and half as much low lead. How much low lead would a person have to burn to really harm an engine? I am speaking of only the two cycle engines. Frank Miles K-lll w/ 582 Clarkston, Washington -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of K&MCozik Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 2:45 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction I agree Bob. Not sure how others are getting away with ethanol but the fuel that started dissolving my tank was 10%. My guess is the guys using car gas without issue have less than 1 or 2% ethanol, if any at all. I'll stick with 100LL since ethanol free is impossible to find here in Michigan. Kevin Cozik Series 6-7 914 turbo Czech floats Lansing MI On Sun Aug 17 13:25 , 'Bob Brennan' sent: > > >Personally measured >and observed facts anyway, and as little opinion as >possible. >B >Getting ready for my >first flight since importing my KF2 from the UK almost 2 years ago, I decided to >take what knowledge I had gained from the ethanol debates and apply it, and I am >glad that I did. Here is what I have found so far: >B >In the UK I used >"regular" petrol rated at 89 octane and I never tested for ethanol, although my >UK built plane is placarded in a number of places warning *not* to use fuel with >any alcohol in it. >B >I periodically >ran-up the engine for a year and a half on US regular gas bought a year and a >half ago. I know - stale gas, bad move, yada yada... I have already chastised >myself on that one. >B >I bought new >"regular" (87 octane, Sam's Club) about a month ago and drained the system of >the old gas. I then began noticing dark fuel and black sediment when draining >the sump before starting the engine. >B >Much to my chagrin I >noticed my fuel drain tool, bought in the UK years ago, was actually a >calibrated alcohol tester so I decided to buy and test some local fuel to find >something acceptable to fly with. Here is what I found, on this date in >Wrightsville &York PA: >B >Sam's Club Regular - >$3.44/gal - stated as 87 octane - tested as 6% ethanol >Rutter's >PremiumB - $3.85/gal - stated as 93 octane - tested as 5% >ethanol >Turkey Hill Premium >- $3.75/gal - stated asB 92 octane - tested as 0% >ethanol >B >The Turkey Hill gas >is in my plane, the rest went in my Jeep, and I will buy and test Turkey Hill >regular for the rest of my gas-powered toys in future, hoping that also is >ethanol free. At least for now. >B >Now for an opinion - >contrary to listers who said they use ethanol with no problems - I assume my >short use of ethanol-laced regularB (never flying) caused a breakdown of >rubber fuel elements, true to warnings posted everywhere and the cause of the >drained fuel contamination. I will carefully watch for any further contamination >(I expect a little yet) and will then replace lines and filter(s). Note that I >never ran the engine until all contaminants were drained >out. >B >As stated throughout >- this is all "for what it's worth" - but I try to base it on experience rather >than opinion, andB can post more test results if anyone is interested. Live >and loin, I always say... >B >B >Bob Brennan >1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox >Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop >Wrightsville Pa >B > > Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. Atualizado em 18/08/2008 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:16:33 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 912s installation When you get the housing back would you take a picture of it for me and E-Mail it. I'm waiting on some green locktite to set mine but I'm thinking I may need different nipples. Noel From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chenoweth Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 9:31 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 912s installation Noel, Well, I'm in it past the point of no return. An odd thing is that Kitfox told me that they knew the studs on the water pump had to be adjusted but didn't do it while my new engine was in their shop - so I've returned the housing to them which I gather they are going to modify for free. My current problem is trying to use the existing very nice, very expensive Rotax fuel line set up from pump to carbs. With the carbs moved outboard and left on their original sides (per Kitfox manual instructions) the fuel line is too short. I can't tell from your pictures if you kept the carbs on their original sides or swapped them. I'm pretty sure if I swap the carbs I can keep the fuel line but I'm guessing there is a good reason for what Kitfox says to do. Regards, Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: Noel Loveys Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 3:37 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 912s installation I'm in the throwes of doing just that to my model III-A which I expect is actually closer to a model II. I'm using the model IV Dynafocal mount and the first thing I've found is attaching the engione to the mount is probably easier to do before installing in the plane. One other item is the cooling hoses from the water pump to the cylinder heads will require having the studs (45 deg) will need to be turned a bit to get a decent access to putting the hoses on the pump. You may also need to turn the 45 deg studs on the aft cylinders to get a decent clearance on the aft hoses. These studs are held in place with green locktite ( penetrating) and will need to be very carefully heated to remove, clean and reinstall in the correct direction. It was advised to me that Llight Engine Rep[airs uses a rod turned down on a lathe to insert into the studs for removal. I don't happen to have a lathe or any 1" aluminium stock so I had to substitute brass and a file. If you want to try this remember the old rule don't grind anything that doesn't spark so use a file. It may take a lot longer but it will be worth it. Also be careful removing the top of the pump.. you may want to do that to get a better grasp on the part and to remove the O-ring that is inside the pump inlet. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:20:28 AM PST US From: "Francisco Espuny" Subject: RES: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? Oh, I didn't notice you were so far nort ! Our realities are quite different, not just talking of fuels. I understand now that you have to be worried about ethanol. And I also imagine the amazing landscapes you have in sight far there while flying ! I'll try it at the Flight Simulator :) Espuny De: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] Em nome de Noel Loveys Enviada em: segunda-feira, 18 de agosto de 2008 11:20 Para: kitfox-list@matronics.com Assunto: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? 2. Fuelling the cars you mentioned on ethanol would require taking the driver out an flogging him/her severely with a wet codfish! J 3. hydrated ethanol would be easier to make and handle than ethanol which is virtually water free at the refinery. Water is the enemy and it is the reason I wouldn't use it in an aircraft engine. 4. we are still using the old Wheaton bridge resistance float type gas gauges in our cars. From the sounds of things you are using a capacitance type volume indicator similar to what is used on larger planes. That would be a great advancement. Not only do you get faster readings but you get them without the use of moving parts... One less part to wear out in the fuel tank 5. I live in Newfoundland, an island in the North Atlantic. We don't have a commercial corn crop here. Neither do we have a way to get ethanol here in anything larger than a keg ( the way I like to get it!) So the chances we will ever see E anything here is remote. Shippers don't want to put it in their ships and it has to be added at the distribution point. The only way that could be done is by shipping it in here as pure ethanol in specially built sealed trucks. Even then I doubt quantities would be sufficient to make E10 for all our gas. I have seen a few new minivans sporting the flex fuel badges but they have to be fuelled with straight gasoline. E85 or E100 will probably turn up here ten minutes after you know where freezes over. In the mean time we will see exactly how flex those vehicles really are by how well they handle the gasoline. Rotax and Jabiru are much higher technology than the Lycoming and Continental engines. They were designed to TBO at close to double the time on the older engines. The presence of lead will add all the problems the older engines had. As for ethanol use the engines would want to have the heads planed a few thousandths or special pistons to increase the CR and then all the seals may need to be changed. Rotax and Jab won't do that at this time because there are just too many countries where good MOGAS is available. Noel _____ Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. Atualizado em 18/08/2008 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:57:52 AM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Aveoflash strobe lights Ryan, Thanks for this link. There is a multi part article in Kitplanes relating to home brew LED position lights. Being the tinkerer that I am, I was planning to go with their plan, but was hoping for a compact strobe only light to make my system complete. This is the last step in allowing me to do final assembly of my aluminum leading edge wings and cover them to see what they will look like covered. Lowell Model IV under construstion ----- Original Message ----- From: "rawheels" Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 6:30 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Aveoflash strobe lights > > The CreativAir LED strobes looked pretty interesting at Oshkosh too: > http://www.creativair.com/ > > -------- > Ryan Wheeler > Kitfox IV-1200 > Indianapolis, IN > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=199237#199237 > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:04:46 AM PST US From: "Chuck Popenoe" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction Thanks, Bob, for the facts! I had been flying my Avid STOL for about 15 years with no problems until about a year and a half ago when ethanol became mandated in autofuel in Maryland. After several in-flight engine failures or malfunctions, I finally came to the conclusion that ethanol was dissolving my wing tank and depositing the softened polyester resin in the fuel filter and carburetor. Cleaning the carb and changing the filter always cured the problem for a while, until I finally got smart and resolved never to use ethanol contaminated fuel in my 3 aircraft again! I now carry an ethanol test kit in my trunk always, and test all gas before filling my tanks. Since then I've had no further problems. Now, getting the uncontaminated gas has become the problem du jour. Glad to hear about the Turkey Hill pure gas availability. Unfortunately, Turkey Hill is only available in PA. I have also found that the Shell station at Rt. 15 and Ridge Rd near Dillsburg, PA is also pure! Another one is the Citgo station at Rt. 51 in downtown Cumberland MD. Other stations in these same areas may or may not be contaminated, necessitating mandatory testing. What we really need is a website similar to gasbuddy.com reporting station locations having tested pure gas, where flyers can input their proven ethanol-free gas discoveries. Any of our guys willing to take on that great public service? Bob, we always make it a point to attend fly-ins at Shreveport North airfield in Wellsville, PA, near Dillsburg. We have a spring fly-in on Father's Day in June, and another on Labor Day. This is how I found the above Shell station. Lots of light planes, ultralights, food and fun! Hope to see you there! Pops Avid N113P STOL, Rotax 447 Flying and grinning since 1956 :-) ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:42:35 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: 912s installation David: Can you post a picture of the mods done to your pump? Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dcsfoto Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 11:36 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: 912s installation What Model Kitfox. I just did a Model 7, sent the water pump to them for mods ( free ) and did not do anything to the carbs. the water line out of the pump is a pain. I went and got a 1" copper pipe (6") and a 45 ELL soldered in a couple of inch stub pipe and it worked great. David Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=199254#199254 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:46:52 AM PST US From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction Thanks Pops! Real world experience is very helpful. I have checked the dates of manufacture of my tanks and they should be compatible with low levels of ethanol and have changed to tygon fuel lines, but still worry about ethanol. The same thing can happen to cars that were not make with elastomers compatible with ethanol. Also, thanks to Espuny for educational posts. Randy _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Popenoe Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 10:03 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction Thanks, Bob, for the facts! I had been flying my Avid STOL for about 15 years with no problems until about a year and a half ago when ethanol became mandated in autofuel in Maryland. After several in-flight engine failures or malfunctions, I finally came to the conclusion that ethanol was dissolving my wing tank and depositing the softened polyester resin in the fuel filter and carburetor. Cleaning the carb and changing the filter always cured the problem for a while, until I finally got smart and resolved never to use ethanol contaminated fuel in my 3 aircraft again! I now carry an ethanol test kit in my trunk always, and test all gas before filling my tanks. Since then I've had no further problems. Now, getting the uncontaminated gas has become the problem du jour. Glad to hear about the Turkey Hill pure gas availability. Unfortunately, Turkey Hill is only available in PA. I have also found that the Shell station at Rt. 15 and Ridge Rd near Dillsburg, PA is also pure! Another one is the Citgo station at Rt. 51 in downtown Cumberland MD. Other stations in these same areas may or may not be contaminated, necessitating mandatory testing. What we really need is a website similar to gasbuddy.com reporting station locations having tested pure gas, where flyers can input their proven ethanol-free gas discoveries. Any of our guys willing to take on that great public service? Bob, we always make it a point to attend fly-ins at Shreveport North airfield in Wellsville, PA, near Dillsburg. We have a spring fly-in on Father's Day in June, and another on Labor Day. This is how I found the above Shell station. Lots of light planes, ultralights, food and fun! Hope to see you there! Pops Avid N113P STOL, Rotax 447 Flying and grinning since 1956 :-) ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:53:41 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction I've discussed this with a friend who used to own and operate an industrial lab. They regularly did testing of various fuels including flash tests. He told me that washing the gas is a good idea because it also removes any dust and crud ( his word ) that may be in the gas. I figure any other water soluble additives would be replaced with the 25% 100LL. The 100 LL will eventually foul plugs etc but hopefully you will be past TBO before that happens. I figure 25% 100 LL will produce a 91 1/4 octane fuel. Good for either 912. Probably ok for a 582 too. Just check the main bearings for plating at around 300 hr. A fuel mix may not run as clean as unleaded MOGAS but it will probably run smoother with less chance of vapour lock or altitude induced evaporation. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Francisco Espuny Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 12:42 PM Subject: RES: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction Makes sense. But is there any additive that could be washed along with the ethanol? Any necessary bipolar compound of gas... Espuny -----Mensagem original----- De: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] Em nome de Noel Loveys Enviada em: segunda-feira, 18 de agosto de 2008 10:47 Para: kitfox-list@matronics.com Assunto: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction I'll answer your question with a question... What's wrong with using a mixture of say 3/4 washed gas to remove the ethanol and 1/4 100LL? That way you get a very low lead content fuel with no ethanol and an octane rating of greater than 91. Someone mentioned on this thread that gas will absorb water... They then went on to describe something less than .05%. After thinking on it a while I've come up with three considerations. 1 the gas is only able to absorb a very small limited amount of water where ethanol will dissolve and dilute in any quantity of water. 2 the gas at your station probably is already saturated with whatever water it can because most gasoline has travelled through pipelines. Water is used in pipelines to separate shipments of petro shipments. 3. The ethanol you are washing out has more affinity for water than gas. Therefore unless you use an ocean of water to clean your gas the probability is you will actually remove the water content of the gasoline. For those reasons I have come to the conclusion that there is no danger of saturating your gas with water by washing the ethanol out of it. A worst case scenario is there will be less moisture in the fuel after "washing" than before "washing". Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frank Miles Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 7:38 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction Guys, here's a dumb question, maybe. Short of just not flying, what is wrong with burning a mixture of 1/2 ethanol fuel and 1/2 100LL? Half as much ethanol and half as much low lead. How much low lead would a person have to burn to really harm an engine? I am speaking of only the two cycle engines. Frank Miles K-lll w/ 582 Clarkston, Washington -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of K&MCozik Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 2:45 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction I agree Bob. Not sure how others are getting away with ethanol but the fuel that started dissolving my tank was 10%. My guess is the guys using car gas without issue have less than 1 or 2% ethanol, if any at all. I'll stick with 100LL since ethanol free is impossible to find here in Michigan. Kevin Cozik Series 6-7 914 turbo Czech floats Lansing MI On Sun Aug 17 13:25 , 'Bob Brennan' sent: > > >Personally measured >and observed facts anyway, and as little opinion as >possible. >B >Getting ready for my >first flight since importing my KF2 from the UK almost 2 years ago, I decided to >take what knowledge I had gained from the ethanol debates and apply it, and I am >glad that I did. Here is what I have found so far: >B >In the UK I used >"regular" petrol rated at 89 octane and I never tested for ethanol, although my >UK built plane is placarded in a number of places warning *not* to use fuel with >any alcohol in it. >B >I periodically >ran-up the engine for a year and a half on US regular gas bought a year and a >half ago. I know - stale gas, bad move, yada yada... I have already chastised >myself on that one. >B >I bought new >"regular" (87 octane, Sam's Club) about a month ago and drained the system of >the old gas. I then began noticing dark fuel and black sediment when draining >the sump before starting the engine. >B >Much to my chagrin I >noticed my fuel drain tool, bought in the UK years ago, was actually a >calibrated alcohol tester so I decided to buy and test some local fuel to find >something acceptable to fly with. Here is what I found, on this date in >Wrightsville &York PA: >B >Sam's Club Regular - >$3.44/gal - stated as 87 octane - tested as 6% ethanol >Rutter's >PremiumB - $3.85/gal - stated as 93 octane - tested as 5% >ethanol >Turkey Hill Premium >- $3.75/gal - stated asB 92 octane - tested as 0% >ethanol >B >The Turkey Hill gas >is in my plane, the rest went in my Jeep, and I will buy and test Turkey Hill >regular for the rest of my gas-powered toys in future, hoping that also is >ethanol free. At least for now. >B >Now for an opinion - >contrary to listers who said they use ethanol with no problems - I assume my >short use of ethanol-laced regularB (never flying) caused a breakdown of >rubber fuel elements, true to warnings posted everywhere and the cause of the >drained fuel contamination. I will carefully watch for any further contamination >(I expect a little yet) and will then replace lines and filter(s). Note that I >never ran the engine until all contaminants were drained >out. >B >As stated throughout >- this is all "for what it's worth" - but I try to base it on experience rather >than opinion, andB can post more test results if anyone is interested. Live >and loin, I always say... >B >B >Bob Brennan >1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox >Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop >Wrightsville Pa >B > > Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. Atualizado em 18/08/2008 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:57:51 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? Have a look at Google earth too! I have a few pictures posted there for consideration. They should be viewable around the middle of September. Noel From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Francisco Espuny Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 12:50 PM Subject: RES: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? Oh, I didn't notice you were so far nort ! Our realities are quite different, not just talking of fuels. I understand now that you have to be worried about ethanol. And I also imagine the amazing landscapes you have in sight far there while flying ! I'll try it at the Flight Simulator :) Espuny De: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] Em nome de Noel Loveys Enviada em: segunda-feira, 18 de agosto de 2008 11:20 Para: kitfox-list@matronics.com Assunto: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: RES: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? 2. Fuelling the cars you mentioned on ethanol would require taking the driver out an flogging him/her severely with a wet codfish! J 3. hydrated ethanol would be easier to make and handle than ethanol which is virtually water free at the refinery. Water is the enemy and it is the reason I wouldn't use it in an aircraft engine. 4. we are still using the old Wheaton bridge resistance float type gas gauges in our cars. From the sounds of things you are using a capacitance type volume indicator similar to what is used on larger planes. That would be a great advancement. Not only do you get faster readings but you get them without the use of moving parts... One less part to wear out in the fuel tank 5. I live in Newfoundland, an island in the North Atlantic. We don't have a commercial corn crop here. Neither do we have a way to get ethanol here in anything larger than a keg ( the way I like to get it!) So the chances we will ever see E anything here is remote. Shippers don't want to put it in their ships and it has to be added at the distribution point. The only way that could be done is by shipping it in here as pure ethanol in specially built sealed trucks. Even then I doubt quantities would be sufficient to make E10 for all our gas. I have seen a few new minivans sporting the flex fuel badges but they have to be fuelled with straight gasoline. E85 or E100 will probably turn up here ten minutes after you know where freezes over. In the mean time we will see exactly how flex those vehicles really are by how well they handle the gasoline. Rotax and Jabiru are much higher technology than the Lycoming and Continental engines. They were designed to TBO at close to double the time on the older engines. The presence of lead will add all the problems the older engines had. As for ethanol use the engines would want to have the heads planed a few thousandths or special pistons to increase the CR and then all the seals may need to be changed. Rotax and Jab won't do that at this time because there are just too many countries where good MOGAS is available. Noel http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. Atualizado em 18/08/2008 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:03:36 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? Espuny You make good points... Is the fuel quality sensor integrated into your fuel gauge? I find that point most interesting. Noel From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Francisco Espuny Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 12:26 PM Subject: RES: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? Hi, Noel , I really don=92t think the exhaust systems are a weak point. Ethanol burns at a lower temperature than gasoline and I=92d be surprised if the exhaust while having a higher water content may not be as corrosive, especially to stainless steel exhaust parts. There's a lot of water and the first thing we notice long ago was early exhaust corrosion. I realize the engines probably don=92t have variable compression ratios but without that they cannot be true flexible fuel units. You're right, but it works very well. The EFI and CDI processor controlled injectors and ignition is a good start only if they also have the sensors developed and installed to analyze the fuel. They have it. I told you twice. I doubt they actually go through the expense of that but just continually adjust the tune of the car for a reasonably smooth engine operation. Try one. I drive my flex GM pickup everyday. It's fine. Either that or the engines have been built from the crank up only to operate efficiently on ethanol. I doubt the latter because most of the world is still using either Diesel or gasoline and they have to make their cars for the world market. You can be sure mass manufacturers will do whatever they consider to be the cheapest. Maybe, but consummers make high pressure on quality levels and performance. The factories research a lot because there's too much competition. As for importing ethanol from countries like your own, where it is made from excess cane, there is as much chance of that happening as there is of striking oil in the backyard. Farming lobbies who are now being plied with money to produce ethanol crops would revolt and I can=92t say I=92d blame them. The only answer is an alternate form of fuel. Then northern famers can return their fields to food production and the whole world benefits. I=92ve said it several times before and I=92ll say it again... We have a fuel supply problem... Ethanol isn=92t the answer ( at least in the north ) Ethanol is preventing a good viable answer from being found. The best present alternative is always one we do have available. Better a non-perfect reality than a perfect dream never come true. I have been told Ethanol actually gives off more CO2 than gasoline...just not at the tailpipe. Ethanol supporters say the CO2 produced in the fermentation process can be captured and put into welding tanks and soft drinks... First there is only so much soda any one can drink and once it is opened it eventually will be released to the atmosphere. The same thing is true of CO2 welding shield gas... 100% of it is just released to the atmosphere. Where is the drop in CO2 actually entering the atmosphere?? You're right again. There's too much CO2 resulting from fermentation and it goes into the air. And I don't believe the're gonna compress it into cylinders and send it to Coca-Cola. You don=92t have tens of millions of cars and you don=92t have to transport ethanol thousands of miles to get to the end customers. If I lived in such a land I=92d certainly use ethanol in my car, truck or boat but I think I=92d think long and hard before putting it in my plane. We have about 30.000.000 running cars and considering trucks and other, the number goes to 50.000.000 (source is annual license taxes paid at each state). Ethanol is truck-transported for several thousand miles, as gas is, because production is concentrated in a wide but limited area today. That's why costs vary so much inside my country. There are also tank ships exporting our ethanol with no problems. I wouldn't put it in my plane too. Not now. Another thing that has not been mentioned is in the event of an accident ethanol flames are invisible. Couple that with the increased volatility of the fuel and it becomes very dangerous to survivors and rescuers in the event of an accident where the fuel tanks may be opened or leaking. Same problem happend to wood made methanol fueled racing cars. They can add something to the fuel that makes flames visible if necessary, as they did in USA. I also agree with you that with the advent of EFI and high CR engines a lot of the problems you had with ethanol will no doubt have disappeared. Your engines won=92t last as long but you may not keep the car that long any way. Manufacturers have a long way to go to make ethanol universally acceptable. Additives to give flame colour and reduce the organic gasses need to be developed. Methods of transport and storage need to be developed. In the meantime we could be developing solar, wind and Geo-thermal sources of energy not to mention better batteries for electric vehicles and hydrogen fuel sources just to name a few. Our engines lasts very long. A garage owner was telling me that he is worried about the decrease of demand because today's cars don't have to be fixed so often.. Things are never perfect, and the whole society is always evolving. People use to say that if we are always waiting for perfection we'll have nothing to enjoy. Let's really find a practic way to fuel our planes now without major costs increase or parts to be changed. What I really want to Know by now is which are the AVGAS engines possibilities for powering a Kitfox. There are few true Kitfox here and there's a copy they call "Kitfox =C1guia" (Kitfox Hawk) but I want an original. I've found two, but there were problems and didn't buy it. And know I'm affraid because almost 100% of Kitfox planes here are Rotax powered and we have this question about ethanol gas and AVGAS. Our auto gas may contain 25% ethanol ! Some people say AVGAS is not for Rotax (factory did not answer me yet). So I think the way is to keep flying the Piper and purchase a Super Sport kit and prepare it to a certified AVGAS engine, if possible. I'll write to Kitfox , but personnal experience is always more valuable. So, If anyone is flying a plane setted-up this way, I'd appreciate any advice. Espuny Espuny http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. Atualizado em 18/08/2008 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:06:15 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction Any one heading to Newfoundland there is no ethanol here at all.... Great float country! Noel From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Popenoe Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 1:33 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction Thanks, Bob, for the facts! I had been flying my Avid STOL for about 15 years with no problems until about a year and a half ago when ethanol became mandated in autofuel in Maryland. After several in-flight engine failures or malfunctions, I finally came to the conclusion that ethanol was dissolving my wing tank and depositing the softened polyester resin in the fuel filter and carburetor. Cleaning the carb and changing the filter always cured the problem for a while, until I finally got smart and resolved never to use ethanol contaminated fuel in my 3 aircraft again! I now carry an ethanol test kit in my trunk always, and test all gas before filling my tanks. Since then I've had no further problems. Now, getting the uncontaminated gas has become the problem du jour. Glad to hear about the Turkey Hill pure gas availability. Unfortunately, Turkey Hill is only available in PA. I have also found that the Shell station at Rt. 15 and Ridge Rd near Dillsburg, PA is also pure! Another one is the Citgo station at Rt. 51 in downtown Cumberland MD. Other stations in these same areas may or may not be contaminated, necessitating mandatory testing. What we really need is a website similar to gasbuddy.com reporting station locations having tested pure gas, where flyers can input their proven ethanol-free gas discoveries. Any of our guys willing to take on that great public service? Bob, we always make it a point to attend fly-ins at Shreveport North airfield in Wellsville, PA, near Dillsburg. We have a spring fly-in on Father's Day in June, and another on Labor Day. This is how I found the above Shell station. Lots of light planes, ultralights, food and fun! Hope to see you there! Pops Avid N113P STOL, Rotax 447 Flying and grinning since 1956 J ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:17:32 AM PST US From: "Francisco Espuny" Subject: RES: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction Well, if gas can be washed that'll be a good choice for me. Even loosing 25% of total volume it will still be a little less expensive than AVGAS and maybe I can use it on a Rotax. If anyone is washing off eth from gas or will start doing this, please, post the results. Espuny -----Mensagem original----- De: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] Em nome de Noel Loveys Enviada em: segunda-feira, 18 de agosto de 2008 13:53 Para: kitfox-list@matronics.com Assunto: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction I've discussed this with a friend who used to own and operate an industrial lab. They regularly did testing of various fuels including flash tests. He told me that washing the gas is a good idea because it also removes any dust and crud ( his word ) that may be in the gas. I figure any other water soluble additives would be replaced with the 25% 100LL. The 100 LL will eventually foul plugs etc but hopefully you will be past TBO before that happens. I figure 25% 100 LL will produce a 91 1/4 octane fuel. Good for either 912. Probably ok for a 582 too. Just check the main bearings for plating at around 300 hr. A fuel mix may not run as clean as unleaded MOGAS but it will probably run smoother with less chance of vapour lock or altitude induced evaporation. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Francisco Espuny Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 12:42 PM Subject: RES: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction Makes sense. But is there any additive that could be washed along with the ethanol? Any necessary bipolar compound of gas... Espuny -----Mensagem original----- De: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] Em nome de Noel Loveys Enviada em: segunda-feira, 18 de agosto de 2008 10:47 Para: kitfox-list@matronics.com Assunto: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction I'll answer your question with a question... What's wrong with using a mixture of say 3/4 washed gas to remove the ethanol and 1/4 100LL? That way you get a very low lead content fuel with no ethanol and an octane rating of greater than 91. Someone mentioned on this thread that gas will absorb water... They then went on to describe something less than .05%. After thinking on it a while I've come up with three considerations. 1 the gas is only able to absorb a very small limited amount of water where ethanol will dissolve and dilute in any quantity of water. 2 the gas at your station probably is already saturated with whatever water it can because most gasoline has travelled through pipelines. Water is used in pipelines to separate shipments of petro shipments. 3. The ethanol you are washing out has more affinity for water than gas. Therefore unless you use an ocean of water to clean your gas the probability is you will actually remove the water content of the gasoline. For those reasons I have come to the conclusion that there is no danger of saturating your gas with water by washing the ethanol out of it. A worst case scenario is there will be less moisture in the fuel after "washing" than before "washing". Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frank Miles Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 7:38 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction Guys, here's a dumb question, maybe. Short of just not flying, what is wrong with burning a mixture of 1/2 ethanol fuel and 1/2 100LL? Half as much ethanol and half as much low lead. How much low lead would a person have to burn to really harm an engine? I am speaking of only the two cycle engines. Frank Miles K-lll w/ 582 Clarkston, Washington -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of K&MCozik Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 2:45 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction I agree Bob. Not sure how others are getting away with ethanol but the fuel that started dissolving my tank was 10%. My guess is the guys using car gas without issue have less than 1 or 2% ethanol, if any at all. I'll stick with 100LL since ethanol free is impossible to find here in Michigan. Kevin Cozik Series 6-7 914 turbo Czech floats Lansing MI On Sun Aug 17 13:25 , 'Bob Brennan' sent: > > >Personally measured >and observed facts anyway, and as little opinion as >possible. >B >Getting ready for my >first flight since importing my KF2 from the UK almost 2 years ago, I decided to >take what knowledge I had gained from the ethanol debates and apply it, and I am >glad that I did. Here is what I have found so far: >B >In the UK I used >"regular" petrol rated at 89 octane and I never tested for ethanol, although my >UK built plane is placarded in a number of places warning *not* to use fuel with >any alcohol in it. >B >I periodically >ran-up the engine for a year and a half on US regular gas bought a year and a >half ago. I know - stale gas, bad move, yada yada... I have already chastised >myself on that one. >B >I bought new >"regular" (87 octane, Sam's Club) about a month ago and drained the system of >the old gas. I then began noticing dark fuel and black sediment when draining >the sump before starting the engine. >B >Much to my chagrin I >noticed my fuel drain tool, bought in the UK years ago, was actually a >calibrated alcohol tester so I decided to buy and test some local fuel to find >something acceptable to fly with. Here is what I found, on this date in >Wrightsville &York PA: >B >Sam's Club Regular - >$3.44/gal - stated as 87 octane - tested as 6% ethanol >Rutter's >PremiumB - $3.85/gal - stated as 93 octane - tested as 5% >ethanol >Turkey Hill Premium >- $3.75/gal - stated asB 92 octane - tested as 0% >ethanol >B >The Turkey Hill gas >is in my plane, the rest went in my Jeep, and I will buy and test Turkey Hill >regular for the rest of my gas-powered toys in future, hoping that also is >ethanol free. At least for now. >B >Now for an opinion - >contrary to listers who said they use ethanol with no problems - I assume my >short use of ethanol-laced regularB (never flying) caused a breakdown of >rubber fuel elements, true to warnings posted everywhere and the cause of the >drained fuel contamination. I will carefully watch for any further contamination >(I expect a little yet) and will then replace lines and filter(s). Note that I >never ran the engine until all contaminants were drained >out. >B >As stated throughout >- this is all "for what it's worth" - but I try to base it on experience rather >than opinion, andB can post more test results if anyone is interested. Live >and loin, I always say... >B >B >Bob Brennan >1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox >Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop >Wrightsville Pa >B > > Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. Atualizado em 18/08/2008 Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. Atualizado em 18/08/2008 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:31:05 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction From: "ronlee" Maybe someone can comment on the following. It is my understanding hat 92 octane auto fuel is essentially the same octane as 100 LL just a different way of rating it. IE: ron/mon. If this is true, then mixing 100LL with 92 octane will not really raise the octane number. I do know it will raise the vapor pressure of auto fuel though. Could it be that if 92 octane auto fuel was rated as aircraft fuel is it would be 100 octane? -------- Ron Lee Tucson, Arizona Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=199329#199329 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 10:46:49 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction From: "rawheels" http://www.tanknology.com/services_ethanol_prep.html: > When water does contaminate ethanol-blended gasoline, the water dissolves into the ethanol and disperses throughout the tank. Once it exceeds its maximum tolerance, the alcohol/water mixture will separate from the gasoline. Depending upon the actual conditions, up to 80 percent of the ethanol will separate from the gasoline, forming two separate layers in the tank: Gasoline on top of ethanol-rich water. The gasoline layer, because it has been stripped of most of the ethanol, will be lower in octane and most likely out of specification. The bottom layer, which is a mix of ethanol and water, simply wont burn. Wonder how much lower the octane rating is? -------- Ryan Wheeler Kitfox IV-1200 Indianapolis, IN Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=199330#199330 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 01:23:50 PM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction Randy - I found "tygon" at Aircraft Spruce http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/tygon.php but it says "Ideal or[sic] hookup of airspeed pitot and static lines (not recommended for pressurized applications). " Doesn't sound like fuel line to me (?) Bob Brennan 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Daughenbaugh Sent: 18 August 2008 12:44 pm Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction Thanks Pops! Real world experience is very helpful. I have checked the dates of manufacture of my tanks and they should be compatible with low levels of ethanol and have changed to tygon fuel lines, but still worry about ethanol. The same thing can happen to cars that were not make with elastomers compatible with ethanol. Also, thanks to Espuny for educational posts. Randy _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Popenoe Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 10:03 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction Thanks, Bob, for the facts! I had been flying my Avid STOL for about 15 years with no problems until about a year and a half ago when ethanol became mandated in autofuel in Maryland. After several in-flight engine failures or malfunctions, I finally came to the conclusion that ethanol was dissolving my wing tank and depositing the softened polyester resin in the fuel filter and carburetor. Cleaning the carb and changing the filter always cured the problem for a while, until I finally got smart and resolved never to use ethanol contaminated fuel in my 3 aircraft again! I now carry an ethanol test kit in my trunk always, and test all gas before filling my tanks. Since then I've had no further problems. Now, getting the uncontaminated gas has become the problem du jour. Glad to hear about the Turkey Hill pure gas availability. Unfortunately, Turkey Hill is only available in PA. I have also found that the Shell station at Rt. 15 and Ridge Rd near Dillsburg, PA is also pure! Another one is the Citgo station at Rt. 51 in downtown Cumberland MD. Other stations in these same areas may or may not be contaminated, necessitating mandatory testing. What we really need is a website similar to gasbuddy.com reporting station locations having tested pure gas, where flyers can input their proven ethanol-free gas discoveries. Any of our guys willing to take on that great public service? Bob, we always make it a point to attend fly-ins at Shreveport North airfield in Wellsville, PA, near Dillsburg. We have a spring fly-in on Father's Day in June, and another on Labor Day. This is how I found the above Shell station. Lots of light planes, ultralights, food and fun! Hope to see you there! Pops Avid N113P STOL, Rotax 447 Flying and grinning since 1956 :-) - The Kitfox-List Email Forum - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - --> http://forums.matronics.com - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:31:55 PM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction Thanks Chuck (Pops) for sharing your experiences so that the rest of us can watch out for ethanol effects, and for the recommendation on the Labor Day fly-in. I did my first hour of Airworthiness Cert mandatory test flying today and have a few things to tweak but I hope to be legal and settled in by then so maybe I'll see you there. Boy does my 582 rev high now on 92 octane no-ethanol, I need to learn not to push the throttle all the way in! Bob Brennan - N717GB 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Popenoe Sent: 18 August 2008 12:03 pm Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction Thanks, Bob, for the facts! I had been flying my Avid STOL for about 15 years with no problems until about a year and a half ago when ethanol became mandated in autofuel in Maryland. After several in-flight engine failures or malfunctions, I finally came to the conclusion that ethanol was dissolving my wing tank and depositing the softened polyester resin in the fuel filter and carburetor. Cleaning the carb and changing the filter always cured the problem for a while, until I finally got smart and resolved never to use ethanol contaminated fuel in my 3 aircraft again! I now carry an ethanol test kit in my trunk always, and test all gas before filling my tanks. Since then I've had no further problems. Now, getting the uncontaminated gas has become the problem du jour. Glad to hear about the Turkey Hill pure gas availability. Unfortunately, Turkey Hill is only available in PA. I have also found that the Shell station at Rt. 15 and Ridge Rd near Dillsburg, PA is also pure! Another one is the Citgo station at Rt. 51 in downtown Cumberland MD. Other stations in these same areas may or may not be contaminated, necessitating mandatory testing. What we really need is a website similar to gasbuddy.com reporting station locations having tested pure gas, where flyers can input their proven ethanol-free gas discoveries. Any of our guys willing to take on that great public service? Bob, we always make it a point to attend fly-ins at Shreveport North airfield in Wellsville, PA, near Dillsburg. We have a spring fly-in on Father's Day in June, and another on Labor Day. This is how I found the above Shell station. Lots of light planes, ultralights, food and fun! Hope to see you there! Pops Avid N113P STOL, Rotax 447 Flying and grinning since 1956 :-) ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 01:41:57 PM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction Since ethanol is a lower octane rating than gasoline... and gasoline with 5% ethanol is rated as 93 octane (my measurement from a Rutter's station... it seems to me that the 95% gasoline in the mixture had to be higher octane for the mixture to be 93... so removing the ethanol should leave just *higher* octane gasoline. Shouldn't it?? Bob Brennan - N717GB 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rawheels Sent: 18 August 2008 1:45 pm Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction http://www.tanknology.com/services_ethanol_prep.html: > When water does contaminate ethanol-blended gasoline, the water dissolves into the ethanol and disperses throughout the tank. Once it exceeds its maximum tolerance, the alcohol/water mixture will separate from the gasoline. Depending upon the actual conditions, up to 80 percent of the ethanol will separate from the gasoline, forming two separate layers in the tank: Gasoline on top of ethanol-rich water. The gasoline layer, because it has been stripped of most of the ethanol, will be lower in octane and most likely out of specification. The bottom layer, which is a mix of ethanol and water, simply wont burn. Wonder how much lower the octane rating is? -------- Ryan Wheeler Kitfox IV-1200 Indianapolis, IN Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=199330#199330 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 01:42:12 PM PST US From: "Dave" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction ----- Original Message ----- From: "Noel Loveys" Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 1:53 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction > > I've discussed this with a friend who used to own and operate an > industrial > lab. They regularly did testing of various fuels including flash tests. > He > told me that washing the gas is a good idea because it also removes any > dust > and crud ( his word ) that may be in the gas. I figure any other water > soluble additives would be replaced with the 25% 100LL. The 100 LL will > eventually foul plugs etc but hopefully you will be past TBO before that > happens. I figure 25% 100 LL will produce a 91 1/4 octane fuel. Good for > either 912. Probably ok for a 582 too. Just check the main bearings for > plating at around 300 hr. A fuel mix may not run as clean as unleaded > MOGAS > but it will probably run smoother with less chance of vapour lock or > altitude induced evaporation. > > Noel Hi Noel, I've read over and over again about "lead plating" destroying bearings in the bottom end of 582's. Rotax specifically allows leaded fuel in 582's and beyond internet specul;ation and repetition I cannot find anything supporting this claim. Now, there's no doubt that the very high levels of lead in 100LL can possibly stick rings etc. but do you have any qualified source stating with lab verified results that 100LL will destroy two stroke bearings? Rotax also specifically allows for AVgas in 912's and I can't see what else you could use in 912S and 914 since their basic requirement for octane 95 doesn't appear to be met with premium fuel and Super premium is a rare beast. ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 01:53:12 PM PST US From: "Francisco Espuny" Subject: RES: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? No. First sensors were impedance meters inside the tank. It was accurate, but took a long time for the reading and the engine sometimes had to run several minutes on a wrong mixture and timing set. Now there's a sensor integrated to float that tells the ECM that volume has changed in a sudden, so ECM uses lambda sound (is it right??) reading to determine a new fuel standard for real time mixture setup and timing setup because changes on fuel composition are predictable by exhaust gas analysis (as you have just two fuels blended and knows how each one behaves). I think that realtime processing would take too much time , so the ECM just worries about it when you add some fuel to the tank. But ECM will still be correcting the injection behaviour in real time for other reasons, as atmospheric pressure, as it does in gas injected engines. Note that first ECM has to know what's the fuel to be able to make further minor corrections. I extracted this information from a technical text, signed by an automotive engineer and I didn't know it two days ago.. It's not perfect, but remember how we had 64 KB memory PCs in the late 80's and how things evolve quickly in electronic market. And no one is gonna fill the tank while driving. Or, is anyone going to do that just to experience a bug ? :) De: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] Em nome de Noel Loveys Enviada em: segunda-feira, 18 de agosto de 2008 14:03 Para: kitfox-list@matronics.com Assunto: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? Espuny You make good points... Is the fuel quality sensor integrated into your fuel gauge? I find that point most interesting. Noel From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Francisco Espuny Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 12:26 PM Subject: RES: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? Hi, Noel , I really don=92t think the exhaust systems are a weak point. Ethanol burns at a lower temperature than gasoline and I=92d be surprised if the exhaust while having a higher water content may not be as corrosive, especially to stainless steel exhaust parts. There's a lot of water and the first thing we notice long ago was early exhaust corrosion. I realize the engines probably don=92t have variable compression ratios but without that they cannot be true flexible fuel units. You're right, but it works very well. The EFI and CDI processor controlled injectors and ignition is a good start only if they also have the sensors developed and installed to analyze the fuel. They have it. I told you twice. I doubt they actually go through the expense of that but just continually adjust the tune of the car for a reasonably smooth engine operation. Try one. I drive my flex GM pickup everyday. It's fine. Either that or the engines have been built from the crank up only to operate efficiently on ethanol. I doubt the latter because most of the world is still using either Diesel or gasoline and they have to make their cars for the world market. You can be sure mass manufacturers will do whatever they consider to be the cheapest. Maybe, but consummers make high pressure on quality levels and performance. The factories research a lot because there's too much competition. As for importing ethanol from countries like your own, where it is made from excess cane, there is as much chance of that happening as there is of striking oil in the backyard. Farming lobbies who are now being plied with money to produce ethanol crops would revolt and I can=92t say I=92d blame them. The only answer is an alternate form of fuel. Then northern famers can return their fields to food production and the whole world benefits. I=92ve said it several times before and I=92ll say it again... We have a fuel supply problem... Ethanol isn=92t the answer ( at least in the north ) Ethanol is preventing a good viable answer from being found. The best present alternative is always one we do have available. Better a non-perfect reality than a perfect dream never come true. I have been told Ethanol actually gives off more CO2 than gasoline...just not at the tailpipe. Ethanol supporters say the CO2 produced in the fermentation process can be captured and put into welding tanks and soft drinks... First there is only so much soda any one can drink and once it is opened it eventually will be released to the atmosphere. The same thing is true of CO2 welding shield gas... 100% of it is just released to the atmosphere. Where is the drop in CO2 actually entering the atmosphere?? You're right again. There's too much CO2 resulting from fermentation and it goes into the air. And I don't believe the're gonna compress it into cylinders and send it to Coca-Cola. You don=92t have tens of millions of cars and you don=92t have to transport ethanol thousands of miles to get to the end customers. If I lived in such a land I=92d certainly use ethanol in my car, truck or boat but I think I=92d think long and hard before putting it in my plane. We have about 30.000.000 running cars and considering trucks and other, the number goes to 50.000.000 (source is annual license taxes paid at each state). Ethanol is truck-transported for several thousand miles, as gas is, because production is concentrated in a wide but limited area today. That's why costs vary so much inside my country. There are also tank ships exporting our ethanol with no problems. I wouldn't put it in my plane too. Not now. Another thing that has not been mentioned is in the event of an accident ethanol flames are invisible. Couple that with the increased volatility of the fuel and it becomes very dangerous to survivors and rescuers in the event of an accident where the fuel tanks may be opened or leaking. Same problem happend to wood made methanol fueled racing cars. They can add something to the fuel that makes flames visible if necessary, as they did in USA. I also agree with you that with the advent of EFI and high CR engines a lot of the problems you had with ethanol will no doubt have disappeared. Your engines won=92t last as long but you may not keep the car that long any way. Manufacturers have a long way to go to make ethanol universally acceptable. Additives to give flame colour and reduce the organic gasses need to be developed. Methods of transport and storage need to be developed. In the meantime we could be developing solar, wind and Geo-thermal sources of energy not to mention better batteries for electric vehicles and hydrogen fuel sources just to name a few. Our engines lasts very long. A garage owner was telling me that he is worried about the decrease of demand because today's cars don't have to be fixed so often.. Things are never perfect, and the whole society is always evolving. People use to say that if we are always waiting for perfection we'll have nothing to enjoy. Let's really find a practic way to fuel our planes now without major costs increase or parts to be changed. What I really want to Know by now is which are the AVGAS engines possibilities for powering a Kitfox. There are few true Kitfox here and there's a copy they call "Kitfox =C1guia" (Kitfox Hawk) but I want an original. I've found two, but there were problems and didn't buy it. And know I'm affraid because almost 100% of Kitfox planes here are Rotax powered and we have this question about ethanol gas and AVGAS. Our auto gas may contain 25% ethanol ! Some people say AVGAS is not for Rotax (factory did not answer me yet). So I think the way is to keep flying the Piper and purchase a Super Sport kit and prepare it to a certified AVGAS engine, if possible. I'll write to Kitfox , but personnal experience is always more valuable. So, If anyone is flying a plane setted-up this way, I'd appreciate any advice. Espuny Espuny http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. Atualizado em 18/08/2008 http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. Atualizado em 18/08/2008 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 02:06:18 PM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction >What we really need is a website similar to gasbuddy.com reporting station locations having tested pure gas, where flyers can input their proven ethanol-free gas discoveries. Any of our guys willing to take on that great public service? I will be testing other stations in my area and posting the results but that information would only be good for that tank of gas. If someone else posted where they got ethanol-free gas and I was nearby I would certainly give it a try - but I would test it before using it just as I will now even at stations that were previously ethanol-free. I asked the station attendant at the Turkey Hill if the gas was ethanol-free since it didn't have the ethanol warning label on the pumps. Her response was "ok yeah, I forgot to put those stickers on..." So the more sources the better, in case some switch over. One of the guys at the airport today said there is a station in Lancaster that actually displays an Ethanol Free sign. Or maybe they're just giving the crap (ethanol) away for free... ;-) Bob Brennan - N717GB 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Popenoe Sent: 18 August 2008 12:03 pm Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction Thanks, Bob, for the facts! I had been flying my Avid STOL for about 15 years with no problems until about a year and a half ago when ethanol became mandated in autofuel in Maryland. After several in-flight engine failures or malfunctions, I finally came to the conclusion that ethanol was dissolving my wing tank and depositing the softened polyester resin in the fuel filter and carburetor. Cleaning the carb and changing the filter always cured the problem for a while, until I finally got smart and resolved never to use ethanol contaminated fuel in my 3 aircraft again! I now carry an ethanol test kit in my trunk always, and test all gas before filling my tanks. Since then I've had no further problems. Now, getting the uncontaminated gas has become the problem du jour. Glad to hear about the Turkey Hill pure gas availability. Unfortunately, Turkey Hill is only available in PA. I have also found that the Shell station at Rt. 15 and Ridge Rd near Dillsburg, PA is also pure! Another one is the Citgo station at Rt. 51 in downtown Cumberland MD. Other stations in these same areas may or may not be contaminated, necessitating mandatory testing. What we really need is a website similar to gasbuddy.com reporting station locations having tested pure gas, where flyers can input their proven ethanol-free gas discoveries. Any of our guys willing to take on that great public service? Bob, we always make it a point to attend fly-ins at Shreveport North airfield in Wellsville, PA, near Dillsburg. We have a spring fly-in on Father's Day in June, and another on Labor Day. This is how I found the above Shell station. Lots of light planes, ultralights, food and fun! Hope to see you there! Pops Avid N113P STOL, Rotax 447 Flying and grinning since 1956 :-) ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 03:38:31 PM PST US From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction Bob, Doesn't' sound like fuel line to me either. Try the Bing alcohol resistant fuel line from ACS. (P/N 05-00500) I could be wrong, but I think it is a tygon formulation. At any rate, I really like it. (The blue Bing tubing that is.) I would like to think though that the Bing tubing on my plane has not yet seen much, if any ethanol. Randy _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 2:23 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction Randy - I found "tygon" at Aircraft Spruce http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/tygon.php but it says "Ideal or[sic] hookup of airspeed pitot and static lines (not recommended for pressurized applications). " Doesn't sound like fuel line to me (?) Bob Brennan 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Daughenbaugh Sent: 18 August 2008 12:44 pm Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction Thanks Pops! Real world experience is very helpful. I have checked the dates of manufacture of my tanks and they should be compatible with low levels of ethanol and have changed to tygon fuel lines, but still worry about ethanol. The same thing can happen to cars that were not make with elastomers compatible with ethanol. Also, thanks to Espuny for educational posts. Randy _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Popenoe Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 10:03 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction Thanks, Bob, for the facts! I had been flying my Avid STOL for about 15 years with no problems until about a year and a half ago when ethanol became mandated in autofuel in Maryland. After several in-flight engine failures or malfunctions, I finally came to the conclusion that ethanol was dissolving my wing tank and depositing the softened polyester resin in the fuel filter and carburetor. Cleaning the carb and changing the filter always cured the problem for a while, until I finally got smart and resolved never to use ethanol contaminated fuel in my 3 aircraft again! I now carry an ethanol test kit in my trunk always, and test all gas before filling my tanks. Since then I've had no further problems. Now, getting the uncontaminated gas has become the problem du jour. Glad to hear about the Turkey Hill pure gas availability. Unfortunately, Turkey Hill is only available in PA. I have also found that the Shell station at Rt. 15 and Ridge Rd near Dillsburg, PA is also pure! Another one is the Citgo station at Rt. 51 in downtown Cumberland MD. Other stations in these same areas may or may not be contaminated, necessitating mandatory testing. What we really need is a website similar to gasbuddy.com reporting station locations having tested pure gas, where flyers can input their proven ethanol-free gas discoveries. Any of our guys willing to take on that great public service? Bob, we always make it a point to attend fly-ins at Shreveport North airfield in Wellsville, PA, near Dillsburg. We have a spring fly-in on Father's Day in June, and another on Labor Day. This is how I found the above Shell station. Lots of light planes, ultralights, food and fun! Hope to see you there! Pops Avid N113P STOL, Rotax 447 Flying and grinning since 1956 :-) - The Kitfox-List Email Forum - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - <>--> http://forums.matronics.com - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 03:54:46 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Lacquer thinners From: gary.algate@sandvik.com I'm glad they had the majority of parts in stoke - I spoke with Pete a few years ago and he seemed pretty knowledgeable on Jab engines. I'm going to be in Salt lake City next week - does anybody know if there's any good Pilot supply shops there? best regards Gary Gary Algate Classic 4 jab2200 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. Lynn Matteson Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com 18/08/2008 10:21 PM Please respond to kitfox-list@matronics.com To kitfox-list@matronics.com cc Subject Re: Kitfox-List: Lacquer thinners so I could completely reassemble the engine while I wait for that to arrive. I need to contact Pete to see the time schedule for parts to get here. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs and holding for repairs Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink Floyd..."Learning to Fly") do not archive > > > > You'll have to add Polyfiber's Flattener, which according to their > rep is merely baby powder...or is it talcum powder?....in a fluid. I > got the real stuff rather than experiment, but then I'm closer to the > source than you. Want me to get some and send it to your Ontario > office? > > I didn't do anything...oh, wait, you've got the tube and bungee gear, > which is taller than the Grove. Short guys like me NEED the Grove > gear to facilitate egress and degress (or whatever gettin' in and > gettin' out means in big words). > > Lucky you, I just happen to have part #63900.000...Landing gear > step...in my hot little hands. They are nothing more than a 1/8" > aluminum angle, 1 1/2" wide on both flanges, and 7" long, bent to a > 76.5=B0 (or so) angle, instead of the normal 90=B0. These would be easy > for you to make over there, but they're yours for the asking. If > you've got some way to get them from your Canadian address to > Aussieland, I'll send them along. I could even include a splash of > the flattener...not much of the stuff is needed. Let me know, maybe > by direct email? > > > Lynn Matteson > Kitfox IV Speedster > Jabiru 2200 > Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink > Floyd..."Learning to Fly") > do not archive > > > On Aug 17, 2008, at 7:33 PM, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gary Algate > > Sandvik Mining and Construction Australia > > Exploration > > +61 8 8276 7655 > > 18/08/2008 08:37 AM > > To > > kitfox-list@matronics.com > > cc > > Subject > > Re: Kitfox-List: Lacquer thinnersLink > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Lynn > > > > I have never used the Polyfiber enamel - does it have a low gloss > > like the Polytone? - As I have only under-coated so far I have time > > to get some enamel. > > > > I don't want to end up with high gloss wheel pants. > > > > At the moment they are fitted and I went for a brief flight > > yesterday (including some long grass taxiing) and all appeared OK. > > > > One thing I did notice is that it's now quite difficult to get into > > the plane so I am considering a step mounted to the gear leg. > > > > What did you do with yours? > > > > Regards > > > > Gary > > > > Gary Algate > > ] > > > > > > > > This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the > > addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of > > this message by persons or entities other than the intended > > recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, > > kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the > > message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for > > any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may > > arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lynn Matteson > > Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > > 15/08/2008 11:43 PM > > Please respond to > > kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > > To > > kitfox-list@matronics.com > > cc > > Subject > > Re: Kitfox-List: Lacquer thinners > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's exactly what I was told to do and did, when it came time to > > spray my flaperon hinge brackets. I knew that they would eventually > > be attached to the wing and then shot with Polytone, so I did the > > Polybrush "tacky", then shot with Polyspray and eventually Polytone. > > However, reading (sometimes my worst enemy) the literature, I chose > > to shoot larger metal and fiberglas parts with Polyfiber Enamel. > > > > I was wondering what Wayne had to say...thanks for keeping up > with it. > > > > One small thought about getting the gallon of Polytone reducer...if > > you have the left-over sitting on your shelf, you'll probably never > > need to use it, but if you don't have any sitting around....look out > > for small accidents, hangar rash, etc...it's a take-off on Murphy's > > Law. : ) > > > > Lynn Matteson > > Kitfox IV Speedster > > Jabiru 2200 > > Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink > > Floyd..."Learning to Fly") > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 14, 2008, at 10:06 PM, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote: > > > > > > > > Lynn - you are dead right it is for the wheel pants. I have had > > > pretty good success in the past with polytone on Fibreglass (even > > > though it's not really recommended). I think the biggest > problem is > > > the bond and in the past I have applied a light primer coat and > > > while it's still "just" tacky I applied the Polytone. > > > > > > Best regards > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > By the way -no response yet from Wayne re your questions - He is > > > travelling at the moment but he will get back to me. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > Gary Algate > > > Classic 4 Jab 2200A > > > Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655 > > > > > > > > > This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the > > > addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of > > > this message by persons or entities other than the intended > > > recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in > error, > > > kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the > > > message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for > > > any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may > > > arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lynn Matteson > > > Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > > > 15/08/2008 11:22 AM > > > Please respond to > > > kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > > > > To > > > kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > cc > > > Subject > > > Re: Kitfox-List: Lacquer thinners > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can get "lacquer thinner" at most hardware stores, but like > the > > > one poster said make sure of what it is (or something like > that). I > > > don't know what that means except to be sure you read the label. I > > > figured that lacquer thinner was lacquer thinner, but maybe > they are > > > not all created equally. Sorry I can't be more helpful, Gary. > Maybe > > > you should just bite the bullet and get that one gallon that > > Aviaquip > > > offered. As far as my own experience is concerned, the stuff lasts > > > for a long time in the tightly-sealed can, so it won't go to > waste. > > > The Polytone reducer is formulated for application in either > cooler > > > or warmer temperatures, and comes in different part numbers > > depending > > > on the temperature of the air when it is applied. > > > > > > A question: are you using the Polytone to paint your wheels > > pants? Is > > > that why you're looking for Polytone reducer? If so, that's the > > wrong > > > stuff to use on hard surfaces, I was told. I was just putting 2 > > and 2 > > > together, and thought you might be painting your wheel pants...if > > > not, I'll keep quiet. : ) > > > > > > Lynn Matteson > > > Kitfox IV Speedster > > > Jabiru 2200 > > > Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink > > > Floyd..."Learning to Fly") > > > do not archive > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 14, 2008, at 8:39 PM, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > can somebody give me an explanation of what "lacquer > thinners" are > > > > - I know if I ask the guy at the auto shop here he probably > won't > > > > know what I mean and I know most of you guys in the USC will be > > > > shutting down soon . > > > > > > > > I am assuming it is the thinners for auto paint (not enamel or > > > > Urethane) ?? > > > > > > > > Friday here so I want to get it for the weekend. > > > > > > > > regards > > > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gary Algate > > > > Classic 4 Jab2200A > > > > Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655 > > > > > > > > > > > > This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the > > > > addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or > copying of > > > > this message by persons or entities other than the intended > > > > recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in > > error, > > > > kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and > delete the > > > > message from your system. The sender does not accept > liability for > > > > any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which > may > > > > arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. =5F- > > > > www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List =5F- > > > > www.matronics.com/contribution =5F- > > > > ====================== ============ > > > > > > > > > - > > > - > > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List =5F- > > > www.matronics.com/contribution =5F- > > > ======================= =========== > > > > > > - > > - > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List =5F- > www.matronics.com/contribution =5F- > ======================== =5F-======================= =========== =5F-= - The Kitfox-List Email Forum - =5F-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse =5F-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, =5F-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, =5F-= Photoshare, and much much more: =5F-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List =5F-======================= =========== =5F-= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - =5F-= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! =5F-= --> http://forums.matronics.com =5F-======================= =========== =5F-= - List Contribution Web Site - =5F-= Thank you for your generous support! =5F-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. =5F-= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution =5F-======================= =========== ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 03:55:11 PM PST US From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction Ron, Fuels are formulated differently in the winter than in the summer. In the winter, you want a higher vapor pressure to make the engine easier to start. In the summer, a high vapor pressure can lead more easily to vapor lock. The knock against ethanol is that it raises the vapor pressure of fuel. Something you don't want as you go to higher altitudes. Randy My home strip is 4400' elevation. -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ronlee Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 11:31 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction Maybe someone can comment on the following. It is my understanding hat 92 octane auto fuel is essentially the same octane as 100 LL just a different way of rating it. IE: ron/mon. If this is true, then mixing 100LL with 92 octane will not really raise the octane number. I do know it will raise the vapor pressure of auto fuel though. Could it be that if 92 octane auto fuel was rated as aircraft fuel is it would be 100 octane? -------- Ron Lee Tucson, Arizona Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=199329#199329 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 04:00:18 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Aveoflash strobe lights From: gary.algate@sandvik.com I currently have the aeroflash units on both wing tips and I am interested in putting a strobe on the tail. Trouble is current draw so I am very interested in the LED lights. I have one power unit in each wing tip and I have a spare that I was going to use for the tail - only thing stopping me was the current draw. If I was to buy an LED light can I just hook it up to the standard Aeroflash power unit.? Regards Gary Gary Algate Classic 4 Jab 2200 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. "rawheels" Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com 18/08/2008 11:09 PM Please respond to kitfox-list@matronics.com To kitfox-list@matronics.com cc Subject Kitfox-List: Re: Aveoflash strobe lights The CreativAir LED strobes looked pretty interesting at Oshkosh too: http://www.creativair.com/ -------- Ryan Wheeler Kitfox IV-1200 Indianapolis, IN Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=199237#199237 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 04:18:12 PM PST US From: "Pete Christensen" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Aveoflash strobe lights Gary, LED lights are low voltage. Xenon strobes are very hi voltage. Not compatible. Pete ----- Original Message ----- From: gary.algate@sandvik.com To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 4:58 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Aveoflash strobe lights I currently have the aeroflash units on both wing tips and I am interested in putting a strobe on the tail. Trouble is current draw so I am very interested in the LED lights. I have one power unit in each wing tip and I have a spare that I was going to use for the tail - only thing stopping me was the current draw. If I was to buy an LED light can I just hook it up to the standard Aeroflash power unit.? Regards Gary Gary Algate Classic 4 Jab 2200 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. "rawheels" Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com 18/08/2008 11:09 PM Please respond to kitfox-list@matronics.com To kitfox-list@matronics.com cc Subject Kitfox-List: Re: Aveoflash strobe lights The CreativAir LED strobes looked pretty interesting at Oshkosh too: http://www.creativair.com/ -------- Ryan Wheeler Kitfox IV-1200 Indianapolis, IN Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=199237#199237 - - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 04:33:35 PM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction Excellent tip Randy - it is at http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/bingfuel.php and I will be ordering some to replace my ethanol-damaged hosing. Follow-up: I checked my sump several times today, once before each flight (5 or 6) and no more dark discoloration. There are still black bits in the bottom of the sediment bowl, seemingly decreasing with each test but still the reason to replace all rubber hose lines. I will check again tomorrow morning after the (non-ethanol) fuel has sat in the hoses overnight. Damn that ethanol! Bob Brennan - N717GB 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Daughenbaugh Sent: 18 August 2008 6:36 pm Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction Bob, Doesn't' sound like fuel line to me either. Try the Bing alcohol resistant fuel line from ACS. (P/N 05-00500) I could be wrong, but I think it is a tygon formulation. At any rate, I really like it. (The blue Bing tubing that is.) I would like to think though that the Bing tubing on my plane has not yet seen much, if any ethanol. Randy _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 2:23 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction Randy - I found "tygon" at Aircraft Spruce http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/tygon.php but it says "Ideal or[sic] hookup of airspeed pitot and static lines (not recommended for pressurized applications). " Doesn't sound like fuel line to me (?) Bob Brennan 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Daughenbaugh Sent: 18 August 2008 12:44 pm Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction Thanks Pops! Real world experience is very helpful. I have checked the dates of manufacture of my tanks and they should be compatible with low levels of ethanol and have changed to tygon fuel lines, but still worry about ethanol. The same thing can happen to cars that were not make with elastomers compatible with ethanol. Also, thanks to Espuny for educational posts. Randy _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Popenoe Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 10:03 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction Thanks, Bob, for the facts! I had been flying my Avid STOL for about 15 years with no problems until about a year and a half ago when ethanol became mandated in autofuel in Maryland. After several in-flight engine failures or malfunctions, I finally came to the conclusion that ethanol was dissolving my wing tank and depositing the softened polyester resin in the fuel filter and carburetor. Cleaning the carb and changing the filter always cured the problem for a while, until I finally got smart and resolved never to use ethanol contaminated fuel in my 3 aircraft again! I now carry an ethanol test kit in my trunk always, and test all gas before filling my tanks. Since then I've had no further problems. Now, getting the uncontaminated gas has become the problem du jour. Glad to hear about the Turkey Hill pure gas availability. Unfortunately, Turkey Hill is only available in PA. I have also found that the Shell station at Rt. 15 and Ridge Rd near Dillsburg, PA is also pure! Another one is the Citgo station at Rt. 51 in downtown Cumberland MD. Other stations in these same areas may or may not be contaminated, necessitating mandatory testing. What we really need is a website similar to gasbuddy.com reporting station locations having tested pure gas, where flyers can input their proven ethanol-free gas discoveries. Any of our guys willing to take on that great public service? Bob, we always make it a point to attend fly-ins at Shreveport North airfield in Wellsville, PA, near Dillsburg. We have a spring fly-in on Father's Day in June, and another on Labor Day. This is how I found the above Shell station. Lots of light planes, ultralights, food and fun! Hope to see you there! Pops Avid N113P STOL, Rotax 447 Flying and grinning since 1956 :-) - The Kitfox-List Email Forum - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - <>--> http://forums.matronics.com - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c - The Kitfox-List Email Forum - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - --> http://forums.matronics.com - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 05:04:57 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Lacquer thinners They had everything but the cam gear, the gear case cover, and one distributor gear and shaft. So $2900 later, and some more waiting, my main parts will be sent/were sent today. So I'll be able to at least put the crankcase halves together, the cylinders on, get the heads done and on, etc. In other words, the whole engine except for the timing gears and case cover. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs and holding for repairs Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink Floyd..."Learning to Fly") On Aug 18, 2008, at 6:52 PM, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote: > > I'm glad they had the majority of parts in stoke - I spoke with > Pete a few years ago and he seemed pretty knowledgeable on Jab > engines. > > I'm going to be in Salt lake City next week - does anybody know if > there's any good Pilot supply shops there? > > best regards > > > Gary > > Gary Algate > Classic 4 jab2200 > Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655 > > > This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the > addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of > this message by persons or entities other than the intended > recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, > kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the > message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for > any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may > arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. > > > Lynn Matteson > Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > 18/08/2008 10:21 PM > Please respond to > kitfox-list@matronics.com > > To > kitfox-list@matronics.com > cc > Subject > Re: Kitfox-List: Lacquer thinners > > > so I could completely > reassemble the engine while I wait for that to arrive. I need to > contact Pete to see the time schedule for parts to get here. > > Lynn Matteson > Kitfox IV Speedster > Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs and holding for repairs > Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink > Floyd..."Learning to Fly") > do not archive > > > > > > > > > > > > You'll have to add Polyfiber's Flattener, which according to their > > rep is merely baby powder...or is it talcum powder?....in a fluid. I > > got the real stuff rather than experiment, but then I'm closer to > the > > source than you. Want me to get some and send it to your Ontario > > office? > > > > I didn't do anything...oh, wait, you've got the tube and bungee > gear, > > which is taller than the Grove. Short guys like me NEED the Grove > > gear to facilitate egress and degress (or whatever gettin' in and > > gettin' out means in big words). > > > > Lucky you, I just happen to have part #63900.000...Landing gear > > step...in my hot little hands. They are nothing more than a 1/8" > > aluminum angle, 1 1/2" wide on both flanges, and 7" long, bent to a > > 76.5 (or so) angle, instead of the normal 90. These would be easy > > for you to make over there, but they're yours for the asking. If > > you've got some way to get them from your Canadian address to > > Aussieland, I'll send them along. I could even include a splash of > > the flattener...not much of the stuff is needed. Let me know, maybe > > by direct email? > > > > > > Lynn Matteson > > Kitfox IV Speedster > > Jabiru 2200 > > Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink > > Floyd..."Learning to Fly") > > do not archive > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 17, 2008, at 7:33 PM, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gary Algate > > > Sandvik Mining and Construction Australia > > > Exploration > > > +61 8 8276 7655 > > > 18/08/2008 08:37 AM > > > To > > > kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > cc > > > Subject > > > Re: Kitfox-List: Lacquer thinnersLink > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Lynn > > > > > > I have never used the Polyfiber enamel - does it have a low gloss > > > like the Polytone? - As I have only under-coated so far I have > time > > > to get some enamel. > > > > > > I don't want to end up with high gloss wheel pants. > > > > > > At the moment they are fitted and I went for a brief flight > > > yesterday (including some long grass taxiing) and all appeared OK. > > > > > > One thing I did notice is that it's now quite difficult to get > into > > > the plane so I am considering a step mounted to the gear leg. > > > > > > What did you do with yours? > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > Gary Algate > > > ] > > > > > > > > > > > > This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the > > > addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of > > > this message by persons or entities other than the intended > > > recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in > error, > > > kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the > > > message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for > > > any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may > > > arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lynn Matteson > > > Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > > > 15/08/2008 11:43 PM > > > Please respond to > > > kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > > > > To > > > kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > cc > > > Subject > > > Re: Kitfox-List: Lacquer thinners > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's exactly what I was told to do and did, when it came time to > > > spray my flaperon hinge brackets. I knew that they would > eventually > > > be attached to the wing and then shot with Polytone, so I did the > > > Polybrush "tacky", then shot with Polyspray and eventually > Polytone. > > > However, reading (sometimes my worst enemy) the literature, I > chose > > > to shoot larger metal and fiberglas parts with Polyfiber Enamel. > > > > > > I was wondering what Wayne had to say...thanks for keeping up > > with it. > > > > > > One small thought about getting the gallon of Polytone > reducer...if > > > you have the left-over sitting on your shelf, you'll probably > never > > > need to use it, but if you don't have any sitting > around....look out > > > for small accidents, hangar rash, etc...it's a take-off on > Murphy's > > > Law. : ) > > > > > > Lynn Matteson > > > Kitfox IV Speedster > > > Jabiru 2200 > > > Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink > > > Floyd..."Learning to Fly") > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 14, 2008, at 10:06 PM, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Lynn - you are dead right it is for the wheel pants. I have had > > > > pretty good success in the past with polytone on Fibreglass > (even > > > > though it's not really recommended). I think the biggest > > problem is > > > > the bond and in the past I have applied a light primer coat and > > > > while it's still "just" tacky I applied the Polytone. > > > > > > > > Best regards > > > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > By the way -no response yet from Wayne re your questions - > He is > > > > travelling at the moment but he will get back to me. > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > Gary Algate > > > > Classic 4 Jab 2200A > > > > Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655 > > > > > > > > > > > > This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the > > > > addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or > copying of > > > > this message by persons or entities other than the intended > > > > recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in > > error, > > > > kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and > delete the > > > > message from your system. The sender does not accept > liability for > > > > any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which > may > > > > arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lynn Matteson > > > > Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > > > > 15/08/2008 11:22 AM > > > > Please respond to > > > > kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > > > > > > To > > > > kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > > cc > > > > Subject > > > > Re: Kitfox-List: Lacquer thinners > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can get "lacquer thinner" at most hardware stores, but like > > the > > > > one poster said make sure of what it is (or something like > > that). I > > > > don't know what that means except to be sure you read the > label. I > > > > figured that lacquer thinner was lacquer thinner, but maybe > > they are > > > > not all created equally. Sorry I can't be more helpful, Gary. > > Maybe > > > > you should just bite the bullet and get that one gallon that > > > Aviaquip > > > > offered. As far as my own experience is concerned, the stuff > lasts > > > > for a long time in the tightly-sealed can, so it won't go to > > waste. > > > > The Polytone reducer is formulated for application in either > > cooler > > > > or warmer temperatures, and comes in different part numbers > > > depending > > > > on the temperature of the air when it is applied. > > > > > > > > A question: are you using the Polytone to paint your wheels > > > pants? Is > > > > that why you're looking for Polytone reducer? If so, that's the > > > wrong > > > > stuff to use on hard surfaces, I was told. I was just putting 2 > > > and 2 > > > > together, and thought you might be painting your wheel > pants...if > > > > not, I'll keep quiet. : ) > > > > > > > > Lynn Matteson > > > > Kitfox IV Speedster > > > > Jabiru 2200 > > > > Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink > > > > Floyd..."Learning to Fly") > > > > do not archive > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 14, 2008, at 8:39 PM, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can somebody give me an explanation of what "lacquer > > thinners" are > > > > > - I know if I ask the guy at the auto shop here he probably > > won't > > > > > know what I mean and I know most of you guys in the USC > will be > > > > > shutting down soon . > > > > > > > > > > I am assuming it is the thinners for auto paint (not enamel or > > > > > Urethane) ?? > > > > > > > > > > Friday here so I want to get it for the weekend. > > > > > > > > > > regards > > > > > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gary Algate > > > > > Classic 4 Jab2200A > > > > > Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the > > > > > addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or > > copying of > > > > > this message by persons or entities other than the intended > > > > > recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in > > > error, > > > > > kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and > > delete the > > > > > message from your system. The sender does not accept > > liability for > > > > > any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which > > may > > > > > arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. _- > > > > > www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List _- > > > > > www.matronics.com/contribution _- > > > > > ================================== > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > - > > > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List _- > > > > www.matronics.com/contribution _- > > > > ================================== > > > > > > > > > - > > > - > > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List _- > > www.matronics.com/contribution _- > > ================================== > > > www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List _- > www.matronics.com/contribution _- > =========================================================== ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 05:09:17 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction I have been told 87 not sure whether that is RON or MON About the water/eth it will not burn... unless you distil it again. Espuny could do that and burn the recovered eth in his car in effect lowering the cost of his flying fuel. It's been a long time since I distilled alcohol ( all the way back to high school) but I think it distils at 80C, standard pressure. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rawheels Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 3:15 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction http://www.tanknology.com/services_ethanol_prep.html: > When water does contaminate ethanol-blended gasoline, the water dissolves into the ethanol and disperses throughout the tank. Once it exceeds its maximum tolerance, the alcohol/water mixture will separate from the gasoline. Depending upon the actual conditions, up to 80 percent of the ethanol will separate from the gasoline, forming two separate layers in the tank: Gasoline on top of ethanol-rich water. The gasoline layer, because it has been stripped of most of the ethanol, will be lower in octane and most likely out of specification. The bottom layer, which is a mix of ethanol and water, simply wont burn. Wonder how much lower the octane rating is? -------- Ryan Wheeler Kitfox IV-1200 Indianapolis, IN Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=199330#199330 ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 05:21:44 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction The short answer is no... I'll direct you to Dave fisher to answer that one. The major problem with destroying the main bearings is it happens fast.. one second all seems fine and the next....Deafening silence. I've met at least one fellow who told me he uses 100 LL in his outboard motors for over thirty years... He crashes better than anyone I know. The info that I got was it was Ok to use 100LL in the 582 for short periods if needed. The Rotax repair shop was emphatic not to use 100LL unless there was no other way out. A word on TCP. It has to be burned to work so it won't help your 582. Noel Hi Noel, I've read over and over again about "lead plating" destroying bearings in the bottom end of 582's. Rotax specifically allows leaded fuel in 582's and beyond internet specul;ation and repetition I cannot find anything supporting this claim. Now, there's no doubt that the very high levels of lead in 100LL can possibly stick rings etc. but do you have any qualified source stating with lab verified results that 100LL will destroy two stroke bearings? Rotax also specifically allows for AVgas in 912's and I can't see what else you could use in 912S and 914 since their basic requirement for octane 95 doesn't appear to be met with premium fuel and Super premium is a rare beast. ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 05:24:41 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction Ethanol has an octane rating of 116 I found that several places on the net. Although the octane rating and volatility are up the actual power in ethanol is much lower than gasoline. 67% comes to mind but may be wrong. The ethanol was added to gasoline as an octane booster now I think it's a vote booster. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 6:11 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction Since ethanol is a lower octane rating than gasoline... and gasoline with 5% ethanol is rated as 93 octane (my measurement from a Rutter's station... it seems to me that the 95% gasoline in the mixture had to be higher octane for the mixture to be 93... so removing the ethanol should leave just *higher* octane gasoline. Shouldn't it?? Bob Brennan - N717GB 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rawheels Sent: 18 August 2008 1:45 pm Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction http://www.tanknology.com/services_ethanol_prep.html: > When water does contaminate ethanol-blended gasoline, the water dissolves into the ethanol and disperses throughout the tank. Once it exceeds its maximum tolerance, the alcohol/water mixture will separate from the gasoline. Depending upon the actual conditions, up to 80 percent of the ethanol will separate from the gasoline, forming two separate layers in the tank: Gasoline on top of ethanol-rich water. The gasoline layer, because it has been stripped of most of the ethanol, will be lower in octane and most likely out of specification. The bottom layer, which is a mix of ethanol and water, simply wont burn. Wonder how much lower the octane rating is? -------- Ryan Wheeler Kitfox IV-1200 Indianapolis, IN Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=199330#199330 ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 05:35:11 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? Fuelling on the move... Sounds like something best left to an air force. 64 KB of memory is enough if you are only doing one job. I think modern computers use most of their memory for Graphic user interface My first computer, a TRS 80, only had 32 Kb of memory and I used it as a cash register for several years. Ok I had very limited sales. Thanks for the info. Noel From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Francisco Espuny Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 6:23 PM Subject: RES: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? No. First sensors were impedance meters inside the tank. It was accurate, but took a long time for the reading and the engine sometimes had to run several minutes on a wrong mixture and timing set. Now there's a sensor integrated to float that tells the ECM that volume has changed in a sudden, so ECM uses lambda sound (is it right??) reading to determine a new fuel standard for real time mixture setup and timing setup because changes on fuel composition are predictable by exhaust gas analysis (as you have just two fuels blended and knows how each one behaves). I think that realtime processing would take too much time , so the ECM just worries about it when you add some fuel to the tank. But ECM will still be correcting the injection behaviour in real time for other reasons, as atmospheric pressure, as it does in gas injected engines. Note that first ECM has to know what's the fuel to be able to make further minor corrections. I extracted this information from a technical text, signed by an automotive engineer and I didn't know it two days ago.. It's not perfect, but remember how we had 64 KB memory PCs in the late 80's and how things evolve quickly in electronic market. And no one is gonna fill the tank while driving. Or, is anyone going to do that just to experience a bug ? :) De: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] Em nome de Noel Loveys Enviada em: segunda-feira, 18 de agosto de 2008 14:03 Para: kitfox-list@matronics.com Assunto: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? Espuny You make good points... Is the fuel quality sensor integrated into your fuel gauge? I find that point most interesting. Noel From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Francisco Espuny Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 12:26 PM Subject: RES: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? Hi, Noel , I really don=92t think the exhaust systems are a weak point. Ethanol burns at a lower temperature than gasoline and I=92d be surprised if the exhaust while having a higher water content may not be as corrosive, especially to stainless steel exhaust parts. There's a lot of water and the first thing we notice long ago was early exhaust corrosion. I realize the engines probably don=92t have variable compression ratios but without that they cannot be true flexible fuel units. You're right, but it works very well. The EFI and CDI processor controlled injectors and ignition is a good start only if they also have the sensors developed and installed to analyze the fuel. They have it. I told you twice. I doubt they actually go through the expense of that but just continually adjust the tune of the car for a reasonably smooth engine operation. Try one. I drive my flex GM pickup everyday. It's fine. Either that or the engines have been built from the crank up only to operate efficiently on ethanol. I doubt the latter because most of the world is still using either Diesel or gasoline and they have to make their cars for the world market. You can be sure mass manufacturers will do whatever they consider to be the cheapest. Maybe, but consummers make high pressure on quality levels and performance. The factories research a lot because there's too much competition. As for importing ethanol from countries like your own, where it is made from excess cane, there is as much chance of that happening as there is of striking oil in the backyard. Farming lobbies who are now being plied with money to produce ethanol crops would revolt and I can=92t say I=92d blame them. The only answer is an alternate form of fuel. Then northern famers can return their fields to food production and the whole world benefits. I=92ve said it several times before and I=92ll say it again... We have a fuel supply problem... Ethanol isn=92t the answer ( at least in the north ) Ethanol is preventing a good viable answer from being found. The best present alternative is always one we do have available. Better a non-perfect reality than a perfect dream never come true. I have been told Ethanol actually gives off more CO2 than gasoline...just not at the tailpipe. Ethanol supporters say the CO2 produced in the fermentation process can be captured and put into welding tanks and soft drinks... First there is only so much soda any one can drink and once it is opened it eventually will be released to the atmosphere. The same thing is true of CO2 welding shield gas... 100% of it is just released to the atmosphere. Where is the drop in CO2 actually entering the atmosphere?? You're right again. There's too much CO2 resulting from fermentation and it goes into the air. And I don't believe the're gonna compress it into cylinders and send it to Coca-Cola. You don=92t have tens of millions of cars and you don=92t have to transport ethanol thousands of miles to get to the end customers. If I lived in such a land I=92d certainly use ethanol in my car, truck or boat but I think I=92d think long and hard before putting it in my plane. We have about 30.000.000 running cars and considering trucks and other, the number goes to 50.000.000 (source is annual license taxes paid at each state). Ethanol is truck-transported for several thousand miles, as gas is, because production is concentrated in a wide but limited area today. That's why costs vary so much inside my country. There are also tank ships exporting our ethanol with no problems. I wouldn't put it in my plane too. Not now. Another thing that has not been mentioned is in the event of an accident ethanol flames are invisible. Couple that with the increased volatility of the fuel and it becomes very dangerous to survivors and rescuers in the event of an accident where the fuel tanks may be opened or leaking. Same problem happend to wood made methanol fueled racing cars. They can add something to the fuel that makes flames visible if necessary, as they did in USA. I also agree with you that with the advent of EFI and high CR engines a lot of the problems you had with ethanol will no doubt have disappeared. Your engines won=92t last as long but you may not keep the car that long any way. Manufacturers have a long way to go to make ethanol universally acceptable. Additives to give flame colour and reduce the organic gasses need to be developed. Methods of transport and storage need to be developed. In the meantime we could be developing solar, wind and Geo-thermal sources of energy not to mention better batteries for electric vehicles and hydrogen fuel sources just to name a few. Our engines lasts very long. A garage owner was telling me that he is worried about the decrease of demand because today's cars don't have to be fixed so often.. Things are never perfect, and the whole society is always evolving. People use to say that if we are always waiting for perfection we'll have nothing to enjoy. Let's really find a practic way to fuel our planes now without major costs increase or parts to be changed. What I really want to Know by now is which are the AVGAS engines possibilities for powering a Kitfox. There are few true Kitfox here and there's a copy they call "Kitfox =C1guia" (Kitfox Hawk) but I want an original. I've found two, but there were problems and didn't buy it. And know I'm affraid because almost 100% of Kitfox planes here are Rotax powered and we have this question about ethanol gas and AVGAS. Our auto gas may contain 25% ethanol ! Some people say AVGAS is not for Rotax (factory did not answer me yet). So I think the way is to keep flying the Piper and purchase a Super Sport kit and prepare it to a certified AVGAS engine, if possible. I'll write to Kitfox , but personnal experience is always more valuable. So, If anyone is flying a plane setted-up this way, I'd appreciate any advice. Espuny Espuny http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. Atualizado em 18/08/2008 http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. Atualizado em 18/08/2008 ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 05:52:17 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: 2 stroke oil - Pennzoil update The main bearings are roller bearings and the tiniest bit of rust or corrosion on them can cause the full effect of Murphy's law to descend on you. Mineral oil will protect the bearings while you are on the ground. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of mscotter@comcast.net Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 4:48 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: 2 stroke oil - Pennzoil update Forgive the basic question here, but I am just not that Familiar with aircraft 2-strokes. What exactly is it that happens to crankshafts? Is it just corrosion? -Mark Scott ------Original Message------ From: dave Sender: Kitfox list ReplyTo: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Aug 15, 2008 5:48 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: 2 stroke oil - Pennzoil update Rex, Good update on oils. I will tell you that I use Bombardier oil XPS mineral oil that you can buy in bulk or containers from any Ski Doo and Sea Doo shop. IT is API -TC rated and works excellent. I just changed to a new 582 as my last one had 500 hours on it and never was apart yet. I took a few pics of the piston and it looks great if you want to see let me know . I am planning on changing over to Shell Advance oil which is API-TC rated as well as most of my local guys already have. I have used this in other planes for over 25 years now along with Castrol Super 2 stroke oil which again is API-TC rated. Pennzoil is hard to get in Canada. My Rotaxes have worked flawless and I contribute alot of that to the use of these oils. Stay away from oils not rated API-TC -- eg - TCW3 ( outboard oil) and stay away from synthetic oils.blends unless you are running them 3 or more times per week. - EVERY WEEK !! I do sell cranks but I rather see the right oil used and your crank last longer. Dave -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada Flying Videos and Kitfox Info http://www.cfisher.com/ Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=198695#198695 Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 06:05:48 PM PST US From: "Dave" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? Limited sales was not a requirement. Every McDonalds used a TRS-80 for a long time running that green screen order tracking. Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Noel Loveys To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 9:31 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? Fuelling on the move... Sounds like something best left to an air force. 64 KB of memory is enough if you are only doing one job. I think modern computers use most of their memory for Graphic user interface My first computer, a TRS 80, only had 32 Kb of memory and I used it as a cash register for several years. Ok I had very limited sales. Thanks for the info. Noel From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Francisco Espuny Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 6:23 PM To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Subject: RES: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? No. First sensors were impedance meters inside the tank. It was accurate, but took a long time for the reading and the engine sometimes had to run several minutes on a wrong mixture and timing set. Now there's a sensor integrated to float that tells the ECM that volume has changed in a sudden, so ECM uses lambda sound (is it right??) reading to determine a new fuel standard for real time mixture setup and timing setup because changes on fuel composition are predictable by exhaust gas analysis (as you have just two fuels blended and knows how each one behaves). I think that realtime processing would take too much time , so the ECM just worries about it when you add some fuel to the tank. But ECM will still be correcting the injection behaviour in real time for other reasons, as atmospheric pressure, as it does in gas injected engines. Note that first ECM has to know what's the fuel to be able to make further minor corrections. I extracted this information from a technical text, signed by an automotive engineer and I didn't know it two days ago.. It's not perfect, but remember how we had 64 KB memory PCs in the late 80's and how things evolve quickly in electronic market. And no one is gonna fill the tank while driving. Or, is anyone going to do that just to experience a bug ? :) De: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] Em nome de Noel Loveys Enviada em: segunda-feira, 18 de agosto de 2008 14:03 Para: kitfox-list@matronics.com Assunto: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? Espuny You make good points... Is the fuel quality sensor integrated into your fuel gauge? I find that point most interesting. Noel From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Francisco Espuny Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 12:26 PM To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Subject: RES: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? Hi, Noel , I really don't think the exhaust systems are a weak point. Ethanol burns at a lower temperature than gasoline and I'd be surprised if the exhaust while having a higher water content may not be as corrosive, especially to stainless steel exhaust parts. There's a lot of water and the first thing we notice long ago was early exhaust corrosion. I realize the engines probably don't have variable compression ratios but without that they cannot be true flexible fuel units. You're right, but it works very well. The EFI and CDI processor controlled injectors and ignition is a good start only if they also have the sensors developed and installed to analyze the fuel. They have it. I told you twice. I doubt they actually go through the expense of that but just continually adjust the tune of the car for a reasonably smooth engine operation. Try one. I drive my flex GM pickup everyday. It's fine. Either that or the engines have been built from the crank up only to operate efficiently on ethanol. I doubt the latter because most of the world is still using either Diesel or gasoline and they have to make their cars for the world market. You can be sure mass manufacturers will do whatever they consider to be the cheapest. Maybe, but consummers make high pressure on quality levels and performance. The factories research a lot because there's too much competition. As for importing ethanol from countries like your own, where it is made from excess cane, there is as much chance of that happening as there is of striking oil in the backyard. Farming lobbies who are now being plied with money to produce ethanol crops would revolt and I can't say I'd blame them. The only answer is an alternate form of fuel. Then northern famers can return their fields to food production and the whole world benefits. I've said it several times before and I'll say it again... We have a fuel supply problem... Ethanol isn't the answer ( at least in the north ) Ethanol is preventing a good viable answer from being found. The best present alternative is always one we do have available. Better a non-perfect reality than a perfect dream never come true. I have been told Ethanol actually gives off more CO2 than gasoline...just not at the tailpipe. Ethanol supporters say the CO2 produced in the fermentation process can be captured and put into welding tanks and soft drinks... First there is only so much soda any one can drink and once it is opened it eventually will be released to the atmosphere. The same thing is true of CO2 welding shield gas... 100% of it is just released to the atmosphere. Where is the drop in CO2 actually entering the atmosphere?? You're right again. There's too much CO2 resulting from fermentation and it goes into the air. And I don't believe the're gonna compress it into cylinders and send it to Coca-Cola. You don't have tens of millions of cars and you don't have to transport ethanol thousands of miles to get to the end customers. If I lived in such a land I'd certainly use ethanol in my car, truck or boat but I think I'd think long and hard before putting it in my plane. We have about 30.000.000 running cars and considering trucks and other, the number goes to 50.000.000 (source is annual license taxes paid at each state). Ethanol is truck-transported for several thousand miles, as gas is, because production is concentrated in a wide but limited area today. That's why costs vary so much inside my country. There are also tank ships exporting our ethanol with no problems. I wouldn't put it in my plane too. Not now. Another thing that has not been mentioned is in the event of an accident ethanol flames are invisible. Couple that with the increased volatility of the fuel and it becomes very dangerous to survivors and rescuers in the event of an accident where the fuel tanks may be opened or leaking. Same problem happend to wood made methanol fueled racing cars. They can add something to the fuel that makes flames visible if necessary, as they did in USA. I also agree with you that with the advent of EFI and high CR engines a lot of the problems you had with ethanol will no doubt have disappeared. Your engines won't last as long but you may not keep the car that long any way. Manufacturers have a long way to go to make ethanol universally acceptable. Additives to give flame colour and reduce the organic gasses need to be developed. Methods of transport and storage need to be developed. In the meantime we could be developing solar, wind and Geo-thermal sources of energy not to mention better batteries for electric vehicles and hydrogen fuel sources just to name a few. Our engines lasts very long. A garage owner was telling me that he is worried about the decrease of demand because today's cars don't have to be fixed so often.. Things are never perfect, and the whole society is always evolving. People use to say that if we are always waiting for perfection we'll have nothing to enjoy. Let's really find a practic way to fuel our planes now without major costs increase or parts to be changed. What I really want to Know by now is which are the AVGAS engines possibilities for powering a Kitfox. There are few true Kitfox here and there's a copy they call "Kitfox =C1guia" (Kitfox Hawk) but I want an original. I've found two, but there were problems and didn't buy it. And know I'm affraid because almost 100% of Kitfox planes here are Rotax powered and we have this question about ethanol gas and AVGAS. Our auto gas may contain 25% ethanol ! Some people say AVGAS is not for Rotax (factory did not answer me yet). So I think the way is to keep flying the Piper and purchase a Super Sport kit and prepare it to a certified AVGAS engine, if possible. I'll write to Kitfox , but personnal experience is always more valuable. So, If anyone is flying a plane setted-up this way, I'd appreciate any advice. Espuny Espuny http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. Atualizado em 18/08/2008 http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. Atualizado em 18/08/2008 http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 06:25:21 PM PST US From: "Francisco Espuny" Subject: RES: Kitfox-List: Re: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction I think that while distiling you should be testing density to "cut" it at the right time and not get too much water inside, no need to worry about the proper temp, just boil it. But I'm wondering if in my case wouldn't it be safer to run an aero engine certified for AVGAS, and I could do the maintainance myself if installed in a experimental plane ("myself" means not enriching the certified hangars and paying the right price for a good and honest mechanic service). It's more confortable for me , once I'm looking for my plane/engine set. It'd be hard if I yet had it inside the hangar. AVGAS is the only option we have that may not change, as it's an international standard to be used everywhere by pilots from any country. -----Mensagem original----- De: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] Em nome de Noel Loveys Enviada em: segunda-feira, 18 de agosto de 2008 21:08 Para: kitfox-list@matronics.com Assunto: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction I have been told 87 not sure whether that is RON or MON About the water/eth it will not burn... unless you distil it again. Espuny could do that and burn the recovered eth in his car in effect lowering the cost of his flying fuel. It's been a long time since I distilled alcohol ( all the way back to high school) but I think it distils at 80C, standard pressure. Noel ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 06:59:41 PM PST US From: "Francisco Espuny" Subject: RES: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? I had to go to 4 GB in my Dell to stop reading Vista's window "Your computer ran out of memory. Close..." everyday. Software needs grow faster than hardware resources. De: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] Em nome de Dave Enviada em: segunda-feira, 18 de agosto de 2008 22:05 Para: kitfox-list@matronics.com Assunto: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? Limited sales was not a requirement. Every McDonalds used a TRS-80 for a long time running that green screen order tracking. Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Noel Loveys Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 9:31 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? Fuelling on the move... Sounds like something best left to an air force. 64 KB of memory is enough if you are only doing one job. I think modern computers use most of their memory for Graphic user interface My first computer, a TRS 80, only had 32 Kb of memory and I used it as a cash register for several years. Ok I had very limited sales. Thanks for the info. Noel From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Francisco Espuny Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 6:23 PM Subject: RES: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? No. First sensors were impedance meters inside the tank. It was accurate, but took a long time for the reading and the engine sometimes had to run several minutes on a wrong mixture and timing set. Now there's a sensor integrated to float that tells the ECM that volume has changed in a sudden, so ECM uses lambda sound (is it right??) reading to determine a new fuel standard for real time mixture setup and timing setup because changes on fuel composition are predictable by exhaust gas analysis (as you have just two fuels blended and knows how each one behaves). I think that realtime processing would take too much time , so the ECM just worries about it when you add some fuel to the tank. But ECM will still be correcting the injection behaviour in real time for other reasons, as atmospheric pressure, as it does in gas injected engines. Note that first ECM has to know what's the fuel to be able to make further minor corrections. I extracted this information from a technical text, signed by an automotive engineer and I didn't know it two days ago.. It's not perfect, but remember how we had 64 KB memory PCs in the late 80's and how things evolve quickly in electronic market. And no one is gonna fill the tank while driving. Or, is anyone going to do that just to experience a bug ? :) De: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] Em nome de Noel Loveys Enviada em: segunda-feira, 18 de agosto de 2008 14:03 Para: kitfox-list@matronics.com Assunto: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? Espuny You make good points... Is the fuel quality sensor integrated into your fuel gauge? I find that point most interesting. Noel From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Francisco Espuny Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 12:26 PM Subject: RES: Kitfox-List: Re: 100LL/Ethanol Myths - Facts and/or fiction? Hi, Noel , I really don=92t think the exhaust systems are a weak point. Ethanol burns at a lower temperature than gasoline and I=92d be surprised if the exhaust while having a higher water content may not be as corrosive, especially to stainless steel exhaust parts. There's a lot of water and the first thing we notice long ago was early exhaust corrosion. I realize the engines probably don=92t have variable compression ratios but without that they cannot be true flexible fuel units. You're right, but it works very well. The EFI and CDI processor controlled injectors and ignition is a good start only if they also have the sensors developed and installed to analyze the fuel. They have it. I told you twice. I doubt they actually go through the expense of that but just continually adjust the tune of the car for a reasonably smooth engine operation. Try one. I drive my flex GM pickup everyday. It's fine. Either that or the engines have been built from the crank up only to operate efficiently on ethanol. I doubt the latter because most of the world is still using either Diesel or gasoline and they have to make their cars for the world market. You can be sure mass manufacturers will do whatever they consider to be the cheapest. Maybe, but consummers make high pressure on quality levels and performance. The factories research a lot because there's too much competition. As for importing ethanol from countries like your own, where it is made from excess cane, there is as much chance of that happening as there is of striking oil in the backyard. Farming lobbies who are now being plied with money to produce ethanol crops would revolt and I can=92t say I=92d blame them. The only answer is an alternate form of fuel. Then northern famers can return their fields to food production and the whole world benefits. I=92ve said it several times before and I=92ll say it again... We have a fuel supply problem... Ethanol isn=92t the answer ( at least in the north ) Ethanol is preventing a good viable answer from being found. The best present alternative is always one we do have available. Better a non-perfect reality than a perfect dream never come true. I have been told Ethanol actually gives off more CO2 than gasoline...just not at the tailpipe. Ethanol supporters say the CO2 produced in the fermentation process can be captured and put into welding tanks and soft drinks... First there is only so much soda any one can drink and once it is opened it eventually will be released to the atmosphere. The same thing is true of CO2 welding shield gas... 100% of it is just released to the atmosphere. Where is the drop in CO2 actually entering the atmosphere?? You're right again. There's too much CO2 resulting from fermentation and it goes into the air. And I don't believe the're gonna compress it into cylinders and send it to Coca-Cola. You don=92t have tens of millions of cars and you don=92t have to transport ethanol thousands of miles to get to the end customers. If I lived in such a land I=92d certainly use ethanol in my car, truck or boat but I think I=92d think long and hard before putting it in my plane. We have about 30.000.000 running cars and considering trucks and other, the number goes to 50.000.000 (source is annual license taxes paid at each state). Ethanol is truck-transported for several thousand miles, as gas is, because production is concentrated in a wide but limited area today. That's why costs vary so much inside my country. There are also tank ships exporting our ethanol with no problems. I wouldn't put it in my plane too. Not now. Another thing that has not been mentioned is in the event of an accident ethanol flames are invisible. Couple that with the increased volatility of the fuel and it becomes very dangerous to survivors and rescuers in the event of an accident where the fuel tanks may be opened or leaking. Same problem happend to wood made methanol fueled racing cars. They can add something to the fuel that makes flames visible if necessary, as they did in USA. I also agree with you that with the advent of EFI and high CR engines a lot of the problems you had with ethanol will no doubt have disappeared. Your engines won=92t last as long but you may not keep the car that long any way. Manufacturers have a long way to go to make ethanol universally acceptable. Additives to give flame colour and reduce the organic gasses need to be developed. Methods of transport and storage need to be developed. In the meantime we could be developing solar, wind and Geo-thermal sources of energy not to mention better batteries for electric vehicles and hydrogen fuel sources just to name a few. Our engines lasts very long. A garage owner was telling me that he is worried about the decrease of demand because today's cars don't have to be fixed so often.. Things are never perfect, and the whole society is always evolving. People use to say that if we are always waiting for perfection we'll have nothing to enjoy. Let's really find a practic way to fuel our planes now without major costs increase or parts to be changed. What I really want to Know by now is which are the AVGAS engines possibilities for powering a Kitfox. There are few true Kitfox here and there's a copy they call "Kitfox =C1guia" (Kitfox Hawk) but I want an original. I've found two, but there were problems and didn't buy it. And know I'm affraid because almost 100% of Kitfox planes here are Rotax powered and we have this question about ethanol gas and AVGAS. Our auto gas may contain 25% ethanol ! Some people say AVGAS is not for Rotax (factory did not answer me yet). So I think the way is to keep flying the Piper and purchase a Super Sport kit and prepare it to a certified AVGAS engine, if possible. I'll write to Kitfox , but personnal experience is always more valuable. So, If anyone is flying a plane setted-up this way, I'd appreciate any advice. Espuny Espuny http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. Atualizado em 18/08/2008 http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. Atualizado em 18/08/2008 http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron href "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c _____ Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. Atualizado em 18/08/2008 ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 08:20:14 PM PST US From: CDE2fly@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: 912s installation I went through he same process with my pump for the 912S/Model 7. Regarding the discharge line from the water pump, NAPA (the automotive parts company) makes the perfect solution (preformed hose of the right diameter and bend angle). I can't recall the part number but John from Kitfox Aircraft will know. As I recall, I had to order it but had it within a week and didn't cost much. **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 08:32:41 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re Gear leg steps From: gary.algate@sandvik.com Lynn Do you have any info as to how the Aluminum angle steps are fastened to the gear legs. Mine are fully faired but I can feel what appears to be a flat cross brace under the covering at about the right height. I was wondering whether Skystar recommended bolting through or just riveting to the tube gear. I'm always reluctant drilling holes in aircraft structures so I thought I would check first. best regards Gary Gary Algate Classic 4 jab 2200 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 08:48:55 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Ethanol - facts and no myths or fiction At 05:20 PM 8/18/2008, you wrote: >The >info that I got was it was Ok to use 100LL in the 582 for short periods if >needed. The Rotax repair shop was emphatic not to use 100LL unless there >was no other way out. About 250 hours of 100LL in the 582, with Decalin, so far. I'll keep you posted. Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.