---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 08/23/08: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:19 AM - Re: "Heavy" wing on Series 7 (FlyboyTR) 2. 07:59 AM - Re: Re: "Heavy" wing on Series 7 (JC Propeller Design) 3. 08:48 AM - Re: "Heavy" wing on Series 7 (Michel Verheughe) 4. 09:51 AM - Re: Re: "Heavy" wing on Series 7 (Lynn Matteson) 5. 09:56 AM - Re: Kitfox Accident] (Marwynne Kuhn) 6. 10:11 AM - Re: Kitfox Accident] (Dave) 7. 10:52 AM - Kitfox 4 kit for sale (Jim_and_Lucy Chuk) 8. 11:11 AM - Re: RK400 Clutch (akflyer) 9. 11:14 AM - Re: Re: "Heavy" wing on Series 7 (JC Propeller Design) 10. 12:19 PM - Re: "Heavy" wing on Series 7 (RockyRim) 11. 12:20 PM - Re: "Heavy" wing on Series 7 (darinh) 12. 12:24 PM - Re: "Heavy" wing on Series 7 (darinh) 13. 04:58 PM - "Heavy" wing on Series 7 (fox5flyer) 14. 05:35 PM - Re: vortex gererators (JetPilot) 15. 06:12 PM - Re: Re: vortex gererators (Daniel Wild) 16. 07:49 PM - Re: "Heavy" wing on Series 7 (FlyboyTR) 17. 09:01 PM - 2009 Great Lakes Kitfox Fly In (steve shinabery) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:19:21 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: "Heavy" wing on Series 7 From: "FlyboyTR" darinh wrote: > I think a turn or so in on the right front strut will to the trick. As John stated, it is better to increase wash-out than wash-in. Thanks for all the input. Darin, Unless my mind is a little twisted this morning, "turning in" the right front will decrease the wash out in the right wing. Shortening or "turning in" the left rear will increase the wash out on the left wing and create more lift on that side. Travis :D -------- Travis Rayner Mobile, AL Skystar Vixen, N-789DF Continental IO-240, Prince P-Tip Prop ADI-II Autopilot AnyWhereMap Navigation with weather Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 0070#200070 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:59:05 AM PST US From: "JC Propeller Design" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: "Heavy" wing on Series 7 Twisted Yes, Jan ----- Original Message ----- From: "FlyboyTR" Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2008 3:18 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: "Heavy" wing on Series 7 > > > darinh wrote: >> I think a turn or so in on the right front strut will to the trick. As >> John stated, it is better to increase wash-out than wash-in. Thanks for >> all the input. > > > Darin, > Unless my mind is a little twisted this morning, "turning in" the right > front will decrease the wash out in the right wing. Shortening or > "turning in" the left rear will increase the wash out on the left wing and > create more lift on that side. > > Travis :D > > -------- > Travis Rayner > Mobile, AL > Skystar Vixen, N-789DF > Continental IO-240, Prince P-Tip Prop > ADI-II Autopilot > AnyWhereMap Navigation with weather > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 0070#200070 > > > __________ NOD32 2838 (20080131) Information __________ > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:48:32 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: "Heavy" wing on Series 7 > From: FlyboyTR [flyboytr@bellsouth.net] > Shortening or "turning in" the left rear will increase the wash out on the left wing > and create more lift on that side. My understanding is that "Increasing the wash-out" means: make the AoA at the tip of the wing lesser than at the root thus ensuring that the root stalls before the tip. Hence ... reducing the lift on that side, right? Cheers, Michel Verheughe Norway Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... grounded.
________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:51:17 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: "Heavy" wing on Series 7 Remember when you guys added that little 1/2"(or more) block of wood under the rear of the wing when you built them? That was to build in washout, so I can't see how pulling on the front of the strut will decrease the washout, rather it seems to me that shortening the front spar (screwing the rod-end in) will INCREASE washout.....doesn't it? Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs and holding for repairs Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink Floyd..."Learning to Fly") On Aug 23, 2008, at 9:18 AM, FlyboyTR wrote: > > > darinh wrote: >> I think a turn or so in on the right front strut will to the >> trick. As John stated, it is better to increase wash-out than >> wash-in. Thanks for all the input. > > > Darin, > Unless my mind is a little twisted this morning, "turning in" the > right front will decrease the wash out in the right wing. > Shortening or "turning in" the left rear will increase the wash out > on the left wing and create more lift on that side. > > Travis :D > > -------- > Travis Rayner > Mobile, AL > Skystar Vixen, N-789DF > Continental IO-240, Prince P-Tip Prop > ADI-II Autopilot > AnyWhereMap Navigation with weather > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 0070#200070 > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:56:11 AM PST US From: "Marwynne Kuhn" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Accident] Anyone know what engine he was running ? Maybe a 912UL ? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave" Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 8:30 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Accident] > Here is a picture of the result. Barry is still in hospital and was > upgraded > to serious with leg and chest injuries. I have no information on cause. > > Hoping for a full and swift recover. > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:11:14 AM PST US From: "Dave" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Accident] Subaru with a gear type redrive. do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marwynne Kuhn" Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2008 1:55 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Accident] > > Anyone know what engine he was running ? Maybe a 912UL ? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dave" > To: > Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 8:30 PM > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Accident] > > >> Here is a picture of the result. Barry is still in hospital and was >> upgraded >> to serious with leg and chest injuries. I have no information on cause. >> >> Hoping for a full and swift recover. >> > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:52:44 AM PST US From: Jim_and_Lucy Chuk Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox 4 kit for sale Hi all=2C no it's not mine=2C I saw this one on a craig's list add and may be someone is interested. Wings and gear were on the fusaloge=2C tanks wer e not in the wings yet. Salem=2C Oregon $8500 503-508-5952 Jim Chuk Ki tfox 4 building=2C Avid flying Mn -======================== ===> > > _________________________________________________________________ See what people are saying about Windows Live. Check out featured posts. http://www.windowslive.com/connect?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_connect2_082008 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:11:47 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: RK400 Clutch From: "akflyer" I have almost 200 hrs on my brothers KF with the clutch, and a few hours in an Avid Mk IV and an "A" model without the clutch. Hands down I like the clutch much better. Easier starts, way smother idle and no shaking of the airframe when warming up. The down side is I cant prop the plane when the battery is dead. I have had that happen several times when I was at the local lake, and am dreading the day it happens when out in the remote bush. I am thinking about tapping 4 small holes in the clutch that you could run some set screws into in the event you need to prop the plane. I have not gotten into it far enough to figure out if this can be done safely, but I cant really see a reason that it cant be done. -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 95% complete Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 0116#200116 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:14:59 AM PST US From: "JC Propeller Design" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: "Heavy" wing on Series 7 Right on! Jan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2008 6:50 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: "Heavy" wing on Series 7 > > Remember when you guys added that little 1/2"(or more) block of wood > under the rear of the wing when you built them? That was to build in > washout, so I can't see how pulling on the front of the strut will > decrease the washout, rather it seems to me that shortening the front > spar (screwing the rod-end in) will INCREASE washout.....doesn't it? > > Lynn Matteson > Kitfox IV Speedster > Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs and holding for repairs > Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink > Floyd..."Learning to Fly") > > > On Aug 23, 2008, at 9:18 AM, FlyboyTR wrote: > >> >> >> darinh wrote: >>> I think a turn or so in on the right front strut will to the trick. >>> As John stated, it is better to increase wash-out than wash-in. Thanks >>> for all the input. >> >> >> Darin, >> Unless my mind is a little twisted this morning, "turning in" the right >> front will decrease the wash out in the right wing. Shortening or >> "turning in" the left rear will increase the wash out on the left wing >> and create more lift on that side. >> >> Travis :D >> >> -------- >> Travis Rayner >> Mobile, AL >> Skystar Vixen, N-789DF >> Continental IO-240, Prince P-Tip Prop >> ADI-II Autopilot >> AnyWhereMap Navigation with weather >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 0070#200070 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 3382 (20080823) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:19:12 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: "Heavy" wing on Series 7 From: "RockyRim" Hey Darin, I had a heavy left wing on my Series 7 when I began flight testing. I'll skip a lot of what I did and go right to what the fix was. I pulled the tips,and re-checked the washout with the "smart level". As good as I thought I had it at set up, it was in a garage, and it needed just a hair for perfect. And then a hair more for exactly level flight, hands off. If you don't have a smart level, find one. If you can't find one, I'll loan you mine. Good Luck, Denise and Rocky Whitman co-builders and pilots Series 7 912S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 0127#200127 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:20:02 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: "Heavy" wing on Series 7 From: "darinh" Travis, I may be wrong but the way I understand it is wash-out is a slight twist in the wing that essentially decreases the angle of incedence of the wing as you move from the root to the tip. This is to allow a stall to originate at the root and travel to the tip thus keeping the outward section of the wing flying at lower speeds. So, to adjust a wing strut for more washout, you would either turn in the front rod bearing (pulling the LE down) or turn out the rear rod bearings (raising the TE). Basically wash-out in a wing places the outboard trailing edge slightly higher than the outboard leading edge in respect to the LE and TE at the root of the wing. Man, I have never tried to put that in words before and it is a bit difficult to explain. Here it is in the word or Roy Vaillancourt (World famous RC modeler and kit designer): Washout works like this: If a wing panel is twisted so that the trailing edge of the tip rib is slightly higher then the trailing edge of the root rib this will in effect reduce the angle of attack of the tip ribs. If this twist is gradual from the root of the panel to the tip each rib in this panel will progressively have a reduced angle of attack. This means that in flight as the airflow approaches the tip of the wing the tip ribs will stall later then the ribs closer to the root. This is good, as this will prevent "tip stall" at slower speeds when the angle of attack is generally higher then normal flight. This will help prevent the plane from snap rolling when you least want it. Like on landing approaches and slow fly-bys. I think that is essentially what I said, just not so nicely. Let me know if I am in error here. -------- Darin Hawkes Series 7 (Phase 1 - Flight Testing) 914 Turbo Kaysville, Utah Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 0128#200128 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:24:32 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: "Heavy" wing on Series 7 From: "darinh" Michel, That is the way I understand it also. You did a much, much better job than explaining it though....Are you sure English is not your first language? [Wink] -------- Darin Hawkes Series 7 (Phase 1 - Flight Testing) 914 Turbo Kaysville, Utah Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 0129#200129 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:58:16 PM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Kitfox-List: "Heavy" wing on Series 7 Sounds pretty good to me. Well stated. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 393+ TT "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert ----- Original Message ----- From: "darinh" Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2008 3:19 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: "Heavy" wing on Series 7 > > Travis, > > I may be wrong but the way I understand it is wash-out is a slight twist > in the wing that essentially decreases the angle of incedence of the wing > as you move from the root to the tip. This is to allow a stall to > originate at the root and travel to the tip thus keeping the outward > section of the wing flying at lower speeds. So, to adjust a wing strut > for more washout, you would either turn in the front rod bearing (pulling > the LE down) or turn out the rear rod bearings (raising the TE). > > Basically wash-out in a wing places the outboard trailing edge slightly > higher than the outboard leading edge in respect to the LE and TE at the > root of the wing. Man, I have never tried to put that in words before and > it is a bit difficult to explain. > > Here it is in the word or Roy Vaillancourt (World famous RC modeler and > kit designer): > > Washout works like this: If a wing panel is twisted so that the trailing > edge of the tip rib is slightly higher then the trailing edge of the root > rib this will in effect reduce the angle of attack of the tip ribs. If > this twist is gradual from the root of the panel to the tip each rib in > this panel will progressively have a reduced angle of attack. This means > that in flight as the airflow approaches the tip of the wing the tip ribs > will stall later then the ribs closer to the root. This is good, as this > will prevent "tip stall" at slower speeds when the angle of attack is > generally higher then normal flight. This will help prevent the plane from > snap rolling when you least want it. Like on landing approaches and slow > fly-bys. > > I think that is essentially what I said, just not so nicely. Let me know > if I am in error here. > > -------- > Darin Hawkes > Series 7 (Phase 1 - Flight Testing) > 914 Turbo > Kaysville, Utah ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:35:20 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: vortex gererators From: "JetPilot" The size, and shape of vortex generators is important. The position of the vortex generators is CRITICAL to get very good results. The numbers I remember from putting the VG's on my Kolb are that the VG should be 11 % back on the wing, mounted at an angle of 15 degrees " Nose In " in the rib valleys( VERY IMPORTANT). On my Kolb, there are two VG's in each valley, which gives me a spacing of 2 1/2 inches between all VG's on the wing. The kitfox wing is longer, the spacing might be different. Do not use the " That looks about right " Method of mounting VG's, you will not get their full benefit that way. VG's works wonders on my Kolb, made a new airplane out of it. My friend with a Skyraider reported the same results when he added VG's. I would suggest that you talk to JOA from www.landshorter.com about VG's and their placement on the Kitfox, he is a really nice guy and can give you far better information that I can on VG's. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 0180#200180 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:12:10 PM PST US From: "Daniel Wild" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: vortex gererators Mike, Thanks for the info. I spent a whole day moving the vg's around and came up with 5" back from the leading edge. That is about 10% back. I put one pair in each valley also. I don't think it reduced my stall speed much maybe 2-3 mph but I like how it stalls. It's more like sinking than an abrupt break away. Dan kitfox model 1 532 -------------------------------------------------- From: "JetPilot" Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2008 7:34 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: vortex gererators The size, and shape of vortex generators is important. The position of the vortex generators is CRITICAL to get very good results. The numbers I remember from putting the VG's on my Kolb are that the VG should be 11 % back on the wing, mounted at an angle of 15 degrees " Nose In " in the rib valleys( VERY IMPORTANT). On my Kolb, there are two VG's in each valley, which gives me a spacing of 2 1/2 inches between all VG's on the wing. The kitfox wing is longer, the spacing might be different. Do not use the " That looks about right " Method of mounting VG's, you will not get their full benefit that way. VG's works wonders on my Kolb, made a new airplane out of it. My friend with a Skyraider reported the same results when he added VG's. I would suggest that you talk to JOA from www.landshorter.com about VG's and their placement on the Kitfox, he is a really nice guy and can give you far better information that I can on VG's. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 0180#200180 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:49:02 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: "Heavy" wing on Series 7 From: "FlyboyTR" Well....??? The sad thing is I know what wash out is and what it does! I just had this reverse image in my mind. [Embarassed] Thanks guys I stand corrected. Yep...Wash out is up!...so the wing tips will stall last. If ya'll will excuse me...I will now slink away and have my crow for dinner...always best served cold with a glass of vinegar! :? Thanks again for correcting me...sincerely appreciated. Travis :D PS...and that was a great explanation of the facts! -------- Travis Rayner Mobile, AL Skystar Vixen, N-789DF Continental IO-240, Prince P-Tip Prop ADI-II Autopilot AnyWhereMap Navigation with weather Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 0206#200206 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:01:37 PM PST US From: steve shinabery Subject: Kitfox-List: 2009 Great Lakes Kitfox Fly In Hey every one on the list..I am going to plan for another Great Lakes Area Kitfox Fly In...I am thinking the weekend after the fourth of July 2009..at Lake Field Airport [CQA] Celina Ohio..all so I will have a rain date ..I want to move it at this time frame..because I think ..the weather would be better here in Ohio at this time in stead of in March....I had it planed for March of this year and we got cold and rain+ wind,all weekend..if needed you could camp out here all so..or may be I could have the fly in.some time in Aug.of 2009.. I would like to know from every one what they think on these dates....it will be a fun time..for the Kitfox Family+ friends...let me know what every one thinks...Thanks STEVE SHINABERY N554KF KF2 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.