Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:38 AM - Re: Fuel line routing (Marco Menezes)
2. 07:18 AM - Re: Kitfox Fly in and Dan Denney (Roger Standley)
3. 07:41 AM - Re: Fuel line routing (Perkins, Mike)
4. 07:47 AM - Re: Oil / Oil filter recomendation for 912UL (JetPilot)
5. 07:49 AM - New Kitfox on display. . . . . . (Frank Miles)
6. 11:01 AM - Re: Re: Gas talk - Float plane trip (Noel Loveys)
7. 11:38 AM - Re: Kitfox Fly in and Dan Denney (RockyRim)
8. 11:46 AM - Re: Kitfox Fly in and Dan Denney (phil@lakercustom.com)
9. 04:31 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox Fly in and Dan Denney (Guy Buchanan)
10. 04:59 PM - Re: Gas talk - Float plane trip (dave)
11. 05:27 PM - Re: Oil / Oil filter recomendation for 912UL (pperrynas)
12. 06:57 PM - Re: Fuel line routing (Tom Jones)
13. 10:26 PM - Re: Kitfox Fly in and Dan Denney (JetPilot)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel line routing |
Hi Dan. I have two 6 gal wing tanks and a header behind the seat. Each wing
tank flows into the header and the header feeds the engine. Everything run
s downhill. The wing tank levels equalize nicely in this configuration.
-
The header tank is vented to the outside of the cabin. There is an in-line
valve in this vent that is open for fueling (to bleed air from header durin
g pre-flight) and closed for flight. (I tried an Andair check valve here fi
rst but it did not stop fuel from being sucked out into the slipstream). So
far all this has all worked very well. I've attached an illustration. The
gascolator is really superfluous but harmless and easier to leave in than t
o remove.
-
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box
-
--- On Tue, 9/2/08, Daniel Wild <djwild2@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Daniel Wild <djwild2@hotmail.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Fuel line routing
I have a Model 1 (532) with two 6 gal wing tanks and 1 one gallon aluminum
header tank mounted on the firewall. The fuel lines run out of the wing tan
ks thru an on/off valve across to the other side behind the seats down unde
r the door and up to the top of the header tank on the firewall. At times I
notice air in the line as it comes out of the fuel tanks. It also doesn't
use fuel out of both tanks evenly even when both valves are on. I just read
an old service bulletin on this subject and appears to me to be a problem.
Also the header tank has a vent tub that runs thru the firewall should thi
s be open at all times or closed?? Any help here would be appreciated
Thanks Dan Wild
=0A=0A=0A
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Fly in and Dan Denney |
Any pictures, Papa?
----- Original Message -----
From: phil@lakercustom.com<mailto:phil@lakercustom.com>
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com<mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 1:57 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox Fly in and Dan Denney
phil@lakercustom.com<mailto:phil@lakercustom.com>
Just got back to Phoenix from the Kitfox reunion fly in. Lotsa
Kitfoxes, old friends and good food. One of the high lights
was the arrival of Dan Denney in his Special Effects Kitfox.
Was really great to talk to him again and see him fly the
Super Sport with John. First owner and the current owner.
Kitfoxers flew in from California, Colorado, Arizona, Oregon
and Idaho.
See you next year!
Phil "Papa" Laker
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List<http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?Kitfox-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel line routing |
Hi Dan,
I build a Model I with this arrangement. There has always been a little
confusion about it. The bleed valve atop the firewall header tank is
used to purge the air out of the tank during preflight. It's kind of a
messy operation. But if the valve were left open, the air would all
leave and fuel would pour out continuously because the tanks feeding it
are higher. In later designs, Denny Aerocraft routed this vent, without
a valve, to a line that returned to one of the wing tanks. However, your
arrangement will work fine, but you have to remember to purge the tank.
One Model II friend of mine had a forced landing because he wasn't
regularly purging it.
It's true that fuel does not drain evenly from the tanks in early
Kitfoxes - tiny pressure differences between the tanks and small
differences in fuel line resistance causes this unevenness of flow. It
turns out that one tank will nearly empty before the other one starts
catching up, but doesn't cause any problems - the engine feeds off the
header tank just fine.
Two other things blocked fuel in early Kitfoxes that caused engine
stoppages. One was the "uphill" hose routing at the wing root, forwards
above the door. The other was locating the tank shutoff valves before
any vertical drop of the fuel line. Not only does fuel not like to be
sucked uphill, but air gets trapped in unsmooth places like a valve
where head pressure isn't great enough to overcome it. Both these
issues, the uphill travel and the shutoff valve placement, were
identified by Denny Aerocraft as problems that needed to be fixed.
In later designs, the header tank was moved behind the seat and vented
with a line to an upper fitting on one of the fuel tanks, no bleed valve
needed. This arrangement allowed for some head pressure before going
through any shutoff valve. It also ensured there was no uphill run
before reaching the header tank. I've flown this improved arrangement
for 350 hours without any problems.
However, I believe your arrangement can work fine if you do three
things:
1) Purge the air every day before flight.
2) Move any shutoff valves located at the wing root to a lower
location to get some head pressure going into the valves.
3) Route any over-the-door fuel lines to run more or less straight
down behind the seat to get some head pressure before going uphill along
the floorboard and then to the header tank. Although this route is more
circuitous, the fuel will appreciate the extra head pressure before it
tries going uphill.
Because gravity-fed fuel pressures are so small, literally hundredths of
a pound, it doesn't behave like house plumbing. It's more like rain
water running down a sidewalk - it's easily diverted or stopped. Another
thing I recommend against is the use of T fittings in gravity-fed fuel
systems. Fuel easily gets trapped at junction by an air bubble - it's
much better to use a Y fitting.
Mike Perkins
217-725-0628
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Oil / Oil filter recomendation for 912UL |
The Rotax Oil filter is a poor oil filter [Evil or Very Mad] It has a small
paper element that does not have good filtering efficiency... The Purolator
oil filter is the best, followed by the Mobil 1. Roger Lee did a lot of research
on this, and I checked out his information and found it to be good.
As far as the bypass pressure, it is true that the Rotax bypass pressure is slightly
different, the two filters I mentioned have a bypass pressure of 12 PSI
while the Rotax filter is 13 PSI... One PSI is at that pressure is less than
8 % difference, in other words, the bypass pressure is not enough to make a darn
bit of difference.
You can read this information on oil filters in this post, my research is posted
towards the bottom of the thread.
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t 821
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2321#202321
Message 5
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| Subject: | New Kitfox on display. . . . . . |
The Lewiston, Idaho chapter 328 of EAA is having an open house and fly-in
Saturday, 9/13. We expect to have a new Kitfox on static display with
someone from the factory to explain their product so if you are in the area,
COME ON DOWN. (If you know Lewiston, you have to come down to get here!) The
festivities start at 7 a.m. with breakfast. See attached flyer.
Frank Miles
K-III w/582
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Gas talk - Float plane trip |
I have the parts ordered from Bob but he is moving shop to BC and I guess
they will be coming soon. I figure two or three days tops once I get the
parts then the paperwork with TC begins... They wi8ll issue me a test
authority to do a ROC test. They want I think it is 200 ft/ min... Figure
I'll get it :-) ??
In the mean time as for the eth It's all bad... The stuff will eat several
types of resin. It cannot be made within the constraints of good economics.
It gives off more production of CO2 (in production) than gas does gallon for
gallon. It is causing horrendous inflation at the supermarket not to
mention the beer brewing shop. Add to all that when eth is burned it does
five off a gas which is both toxic and bad for the O3 layer. Years ago they
had a good idea involving using propane to power cars. We have lots of it,
it sure burns clean, and it would leave gas to be used in things like
planes... Best of all we are just about adrift in the stuff.
It surprises me that they require the crap to be put into marina fuel. They
know there are stated problems with moisture so it makes no sense to sell it
at marinas. They know there are flight issues yet they don't allow non eth
fuel to be sold at air strips.
My outlook on it is the squeaky wheel gets the grease. If we all lie back
and say ok Steve you're wrong with this but we'll do it any way then we get
what we deserve. If, on the other hand, we stand out ground and let him
know in the upcoming election that the whole idea of ethanol in the gas was
a bad idea from the get go and he can consider it from the opposition
benches. We may just move to a more responsible form of fuel management.
If they took the money they are now aimlessly throwing away on ethanol
production and used it to give tax breaks to vehicles that used less and
less fuel then we would chop the law of supply and demand. We would be more
responsible and our economies would be strengthened.
I'm wondering because you have had no ill effects with the eth there may be
some other additive in the gas in your area that may be protecting your
plane. It may also have something to do with the rate you put fuel through
your plane. It may also have something to do with not leaving gas in your
plane for days on end. IU don't think the occasional tank of E hurts
anything... In fact it would probably clean things out a bit. Unless they
can guarantee the quality of the E being delivered I am still leery of using
it for boating or flying.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dave
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 7:40 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Gas talk - Float plane trip
Noel,
the point is that I fly a fair bit with gas yes GAS- Regular ethanol laced
auto gas. --And guess what -- it still runs .
I just look at the ethanol fear mongering as just from folks that are not
sure. ? Heck, i not want it but I forced to use it and so far it works
fine. Maybe I will be eating my own foot soon but after 3000 Gallons of
ethanol gas in my Kitfox alone and no fuel issues and one engine that ran
500 hours and still ran fine I cannot say that ethanol is a detriment to my
flying.
Time to get your 912 running and put some hours on yours. I would use the
same as I have been.
> Prime minister "Harpo" (If it wasn't so serious it would be hilarious)
> passed legislation that gives a year or so before ethanol contamination
has
> to be everywhere. I still want to know who he is going to get to transport
> it to the island or the arctic. If the stuff was so good they wouldn't
have
> to legislate it's use... I wonder if he is also shovelling it's use into
> the military.
>
> Oh well there's an election in the works... Maybe we should all go with
> Premier Danny Williams ABC voting practice...That's Anything But
> Conservative.
>
> Noel
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2192#202192
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Fly in and Dan Denney |
Dave,
I've heard that people in the upper latitudes can sit in front of fluorescent
lights for extended periods to relieve depression and other behavioral disorders.
I am tired of your bullsh_t.
Rocky Whitman
Austin
And I approve this message
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2363#202363
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Fly in and Dan Denney |
> Any pictures, Papa?
>
Soon as I get them downloaded I will post a couple.
Papa
>
> Just got back to Phoenix from the Kitfox reunion fly in. Lotsa
> Kitfoxes, old friends and good food. One of the high lights
> was the arrival of Dan Denney in his Special Effects Kitfox.
> Was really great to talk to him again and see him fly the
> Super Sport with John. First owner and the current owner.
> Kitfoxers flew in from California, Colorado, Arizona, Oregon
> and Idaho.
> See you next year!
>
> Phil "Papa" Laker
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List>
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Fly in and Dan Denney |
All,
I have replied to Mr. Whitman off-line. As he is, for the
time being, no longer capable of receiving list messages there is no
need to respond here. Feel free, however, to abuse him directly at
his personal email address prominently displayed below.
Guy Buchanan, Kitfox List Moderator
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
At 11:37 AM 9/3/2008, you wrote:
>
>Dave,
>
>I've heard that people in the upper latitudes can sit in front of fluorescent
>lights for extended periods to relieve depression and other
>behavioral disorders. I am tired of your bullsh_t.
>
>Rocky Whitman
>Austin
>And I approve this message
>do not archive
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Gas talk - Float plane trip |
Noel,
This should make your stomach turn then. The pic below was taken of me a few days
ago after flying about 45 miles across open water with a Rotax 582 and ethanol
gas. Go figure.
Dave
--------
Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada
Flying Videos and Kitfox Info
http://www.cfisher.com/
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2429#202429
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dscf0003_2_119.jpg
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Oil / Oil filter recomendation for 912UL |
Thanks Mike, (and Roger also for his research), based on this information I believe
I'll try the Purolator filter and a 4 cycle motorcycle oil rather than
having to order the rotax filter and AV-9 or Aerosport oil. Thanks again to everyone
who posted an opinion, Paul P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2437#202437
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel line routing |
Mike, that is the best explanation of what affects fuel flow from the wing tanks
I have read in the 14 years I have been a kitfox owner.
I have a wing tank plumbed into a clear panel tank. I have tried every fuel line
route possible from the wing to the panel and have come to the conclusion that
there is no good way to route it above the door and down to the panel tank.
I end up in almost knife flight to drain the last two gallons out of the wing.
I think I will go back to the down under the seat and back up route.
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2452#202452
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox Fly in and Dan Denney |
phil(at)lakercustom.com wrote:
>
> One of the high lights
> was the arrival of Dan Denney in his Special Effects Kitfox.
>
What is a " Special Effects Kitfox " ??? Can someone post a picture ?
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2475#202475
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