---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 09/10/08: 25 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:19 AM - Re: Re: Lights (Catz631@aol.com) 2. 05:52 AM - Jabiru (Kirk Martenson) 3. 06:12 AM - Re: Jabiru (Michel Verheughe) 4. 06:46 AM - Re: Jabiru (Jim_and_Lucy Chuk) 5. 07:15 AM - Re: Jabiru (Lowell Fitt) 6. 07:30 AM - Re: Jabiru (JetPilot) 7. 09:06 AM - Re: Jabiru (Rueb, Duane) 8. 09:24 AM - Re: Jabiru (Michel Verheughe) 9. 09:37 AM - Re: Re: Jabiru (Lynn Matteson) 10. 09:46 AM - Re: Re: Jabiru (Michael Gibbs) 11. 10:24 AM - Re: Jabiru (JetPilot) 12. 01:10 PM - Re: Jabiru (Clint Bazzill) 13. 02:22 PM - Re: Jabiru (Lynn Matteson) 14. 03:22 PM - New O200 vs 912 (fox5flyer) 15. 03:58 PM - Re: Jabiru (darinh) 16. 04:20 PM - Re: Re: Jabiru (fox5flyer) 17. 04:35 PM - Re: Jabiru (gary.algate@sandvik.com) 18. 04:42 PM - Re: Re: Jabiru (gary.algate@sandvik.com) 19. 05:03 PM - Re: Re: Jabiru (gary.algate@sandvik.com) 20. 07:45 PM - Re: Jabiru (Kitfoxkirk) 21. 07:45 PM - Re: Re: Lights (Noel Loveys) 22. 07:53 PM - Re: Re: Lights (Noel Loveys) 23. 07:58 PM - Re: Re: Lights (Noel Loveys) 24. 08:03 PM - Re: Jabiru (Michael Gibbs) 25. 09:12 PM - Re: Jabiru (JetPilot) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:19:20 AM PST US From: Catz631@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Lights Just sold my Whelen wingtip strobes on Ebay for almost $400. That really reduced the price of my Aveoflash strobe/running light led units that I installed on my aircraft and bought from Spruce ($600 the pair). These self contained units fastened right to the wingtips with a minimum of effort and I am in business.All sealed in a lump of plastic with no power pack.It couldn't be more simple! Power use is 750 ma for the two. They are bright ! (even with the leads attached to a simple 9 volt battery) One of my better purchases(next to Lowells trim system--but not that good!) Dick Maddux Fox 4-1200 Pensacola,fl **************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com. (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014) ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:52:00 AM PST US From: "Kirk Martenson" Subject: Kitfox-List: Jabiru I know that there are a few people running the Jabiru in the Kitfox. Does anyone have a good comparison between the Jabiru and the Rotax 912? I have a Classic IV with a sick 912. I may be replacing the whole engine and I am considering the Jabiru. Thanks ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:12:05 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Kitfox-List: RE: Jabiru > From: Kirk Martenson [aviateer@gmail.com] > I know that there are a few people running the Jabiru in the Kitfox. Does > anyone have a good comparison between the Jabiru and the Rotax 912? ... you've just opened a can of worms, Kirk! :-) Before I bought my Jabiru, I saw a nice British comparison done on two identical Rans and it looks like the two engines are pretty much a good bargain. The Jabiru is simpler and appeals to those who feel that less is more. The only drawback is that you'll need to modify your cowling. As for any water-cooled engine, the forming of the cowling and air chamber inside it, is essential. As for the small performance details, I'll leave it to others with ditigal gauges on each cylinders to answer here. :-) After 260 hours, I am still pleased with my Jabiru 2200. Cheers, Michel Verheughe Norway Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... flying as PAX
________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:46:25 AM PST US From: Jim_and_Lucy Chuk Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Jabiru I have a Jabiru in my Avid MK IV. Takeoff performance is no better than th e 582 it replaced. cruise speed is about 10 MPH faster than the 582. Fuel burn per hour is not much better than the 582 at 75 percent power. I have never flown in an Avid or Kitfox with a 912=2C but everything I read=2C and from those I've talked to about the 912 performance says it is better than what I've experienced with my Jabiru. I'm running a fixed pitched 2 blade 64" prop on my Jabiru. A 912 probably will run a 3 blade 68" (or more). And it will be ground adjustable besides=2C so if you want better cruise o r better takeoff=2C you can just adjust the prop to suit=2C or if you go wi th an inflight adjustable you can have both with the flip of a switch and o n the same flight no less. On the Jabiru=2C tradeing takeoff for cruise or vice-versa will cost you another $500 or so for a different prop and the h assle of changeing it. I would stick with the 912=2C especially being you are all ready set up for it. Just my 2 cents worth=2C Jim Chuk Avid MK IV flying=2C Kitfox 4 (with 912) building Mn ist@matronics.comSubject: Kitfox-List: Jabiru I know that there are a few people running the Jabiru in the Kitfox. Does a nyone have a good comparison between the Jabiru and the Rotax 912? I have a Classic IV with a sick 912. I may be replacing the whole engine an d I am considering the Jabiru. Thanks _________________________________________________________________ Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn =9310 hidden secrets=94 from Jamie .. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!5 50F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:15:27 AM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Jabiru Kirk, For all the Rotax guys, could you comment on the sickness? Lowell do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirk Martenson" Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 5:51 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Jabiru >I know that there are a few people running the Jabiru in the Kitfox. Does > anyone have a good comparison between the Jabiru and the Rotax 912? > > I have a Classic IV with a sick 912. I may be replacing the whole engine > and > I am considering the Jabiru. > > > Thanks > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:30:49 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Jabiru From: "JetPilot" There is no comparison between the Jabiru and the Rotax 912-S. It takes a heavy, 6 cylinder, 120 horsepower Jabiru to get the same performance as the 100 HP Rotax 912-S, at the expense of a much increased fuel burn. The Rotax 912-S is a much better, more reliable engine design. If you study performance of aircraft with these two engines, the Rotax 912-S wins hands down. The Rotax 912-S is more complicated than the Jabiru to install, but I am willing to do the work to end up with a better performing and more reliable plane. The statistic is that better than 80 % of all Light Sport aircraft manufactured today use the more expensive Rotax 912-S engine. There is a very good reason for this. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3585#203585 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:06:41 AM PST US From: "Rueb, Duane" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Jabiru Lowell Continental has a new version of the O-200. It is being used in Cessnas new sport light offering. I would be looking into that one if I were building a K- IV. I believe that in the long run, it would be cheaper and safer, and then more fun. Duane -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 7:11 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Jabiru Kirk, For all the Rotax guys, could you comment on the sickness? Lowell do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirk Martenson" Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 5:51 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Jabiru >I know that there are a few people running the Jabiru in the Kitfox. Does > anyone have a good comparison between the Jabiru and the Rotax 912? > > I have a Classic IV with a sick 912. I may be replacing the whole engine > and > I am considering the Jabiru. > > > Thanks > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:24:33 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Jabiru > From: JetPilot [orcabonita@hotmail.com] > The statistic is that better than 80 % of all Light Sport aircraft manufactured today > use the more expensive Rotax 912-S engine. There is a very good reason for this. ... okay, I understand now why there are wars in the world! You know what, Mike? Let's all buy only Rotax, Microsoft and Jeppesen! Let's screw Jabiru, Apple and PocketFMS! Let the formers be the sole providers and take whatever they want! Competition is sooooo .... anti-American! Anyway, who is stupid enough to think that an air-cooled, direct drive boxer engine has anything to do with aviation? Stupid Aussies! Michel Verheughe Norway Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 Do not archive
________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:37:27 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Jabiru Could part of the reason be that the R engine has been out longer? MUCH longer? Check the stats for Australia. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs...short block assembled; waiting for heads Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink Floyd..."Learning to Fly") do not archive On Sep 10, 2008, at 10:30 AM, JetPilot wrote: > > There is no comparison between the Jabiru and the Rotax 912-S. It > takes a heavy, 6 cylinder, 120 horsepower Jabiru to get the same > performance as the 100 HP Rotax 912-S, at the expense of a much > increased fuel burn. The Rotax 912-S is a much better, more > reliable engine design. If you study performance of aircraft with > these two engines, the Rotax 912-S wins hands down. The Rotax 912- > S is more complicated than the Jabiru to install, but I am willing > to do the work to end up with a better performing and more reliable > plane. > > The statistic is that better than 80 % of all Light Sport aircraft > manufactured today use the more expensive Rotax 912-S engine. > There is a very good reason for this. > > Mike > > -------- > "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast > as you could have !!! > > Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3585#203585 > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:46:36 AM PST US From: Michael Gibbs Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Jabiru Michel, >You know what, Mike? Let's all buy only Rotax, Microsoft and Jeppesen! I think what Mike meant is that the 912 is very popular because it is a strong product (he did admit that 20% don't use it right? :-). Every decision we make when designing and building airplanes entails a series of compromises, both technical and financial--there is no absolutely right or wrong choice for everyone. Mike G. N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster Phoenix, AZ ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:24:15 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Jabiru From: "JetPilot" [quote="Michel"] > > > Competition is sooooo .... anti-American! > > I love to see competition, maybe one day it will get the engine manufacturers off their collective arses and start putting Fuel Injection systems on them ! Fuel injection has only been used on the majority of cars for like 30 years now. I really like the BMW motorcycle engine, fuel injected, 2 cylinder, air cooled, very smooth running, light, and 105 HP. They are putting the BMW's on Trikes with great success, but I don't know if they would last for many hours at high power settings like we would need in an airplane. Thank god for the Aussies, I love them, without the Jabiru my Rotax 912-S would have probably cost me 30,000 instead of 20,000 dollars. Lycoming has some neat experimental class fuel injected engines in the 115 HP range that would be a bit heavy, but probably really great motors. I do think Duane has the best idea of all, the new Continental will probably be better, more trouble free, and more reliable than any of our other engine options. Now I just need to find a way to come up with another 25 grand [Wink] Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3638#203638 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:10:25 PM PST US From: Clint Bazzill Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Jabiru That engine weighs 100 lb more then a 912ULS=2C if you want a one place Mod el IV=2C go for it. Clint> From: ruebd@skymail.csus.edu> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com> Date: W ed=2C 10 Sep 2008 09:05:19 -0700> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Jabiru> > --> K itfox-List message posted by: "Rueb=2C Duane" > > L owell> > Continental has a new version of the O-200. It is being used in Ce ssnas new sport light offering. I would be looking into that one if I were building a K- IV. I believe that in the long run=2C it would be cheaper and safer=2C and then more fun.> > Duane> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [m ailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt> Sen t: Wednesday=2C September 10=2C 2008 7:11 AM> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com owell Fitt" > > Kirk=2C> > For all the Rotax guys=2C could you comment on the sickness?> > Lowell> > do not archive> ----- Origi nal Message -----> From: "Kirk Martenson" > To: > Sent: Wednesday=2C September 10=2C 2008 5:51 AM> Subj ect: Kitfox-List: Jabiru> > > >I know that there are a few people running t he Jabiru in the Kitfox. Does> > anyone have a good comparison between the Jabiru and the Rotax 912?> >> > I have a Classic IV with a sick 912. I may be replacing the whole engine> > and> > I am considering the Jabiru.> >> >> ==============> > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:22:13 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Jabiru How heavy is it? Whaddya mean "more fun"...you ain't HAD fun 'til you've put 'er into a wheat field! Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs...engine assembled; waiting for new ignition system Status: "Condition grounded, but determined to try." (Pink Floyd..."Learning to Fly") do not archive On Sep 10, 2008, at 12:05 PM, Rueb, Duane wrote: > > > Lowell > > Continental has a new version of the O-200. It is being used in > Cessnas new sport light offering. I would be looking into that one > if I were building a K- IV. I believe that in the long run, it > would be cheaper and safer, and then more fun. > > Duane > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox- > list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt > Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 7:11 AM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Jabiru > > > > Kirk, > > For all the Rotax guys, could you comment on the sickness? > > Lowell > > do not archive > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kirk Martenson" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 5:51 AM > Subject: Kitfox-List: Jabiru > > >> I know that there are a few people running the Jabiru in the >> Kitfox. Does >> anyone have a good comparison between the Jabiru and the Rotax 912? >> >> I have a Classic IV with a sick 912. I may be replacing the whole >> engine >> and >> I am considering the Jabiru. >> >> >> Thanks >> > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:22:06 PM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Kitfox-List: New O200 vs 912 Clint, to help us out here, could you please cite a reference for that weight please, both the 912 and O200 (new version). Please include with your figures the weight of the 912 radiator, coolant, hoses, and all other factors so that apples are equal to apples. Thanks. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 393+ TT "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert ----- Original Message ----- From: Clint Bazzill To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 4:08 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Jabiru That engine weighs 100 lb more then a 912ULS, if you want a one place Model IV, go for it. Clint > From: ruebd@skymail.csus.edu > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 09:05:19 -0700 > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Jabiru > > > Lowell > > Continental has a new version of the O-200. It is being used in Cessnas new sport light offering. I would be looking into that one if I were building a K- IV. I believe that in the long run, it would be cheaper and safer, and then more fun. > > Duane ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:58:59 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Jabiru From: "darinh" Here is some research I did when deciding which engine I would put on my Series 7 for those who are interested. Rotax 912s 141 lbs $19,373 914 166 lbs $31,413 (Thank goodness I didn't pay that much!) Jabiru 2200 132 lbs $13,900 3300 178 lbs $18,400 Continental (TMX Experimental) 0-200 215lbs w/o exhaust $19,435 IO-240 240 lbs w/o exhaust $20,135 (they also offer a FADEC version which is injected and computer controlled...very cool but $27,888. I ended up going with the 914 because I wanted the best performance throughout my flight envelope and this engine fit the bill the best. I really like the Jabiru but the fact that it can't swing nearly as big a prop would have limited my climb more than I had wanted. The Continentals are simply too heavy for me. I think for a IV the continental should not even be an option due to the weight. I know people have done it but I would stay away from it. I am glad that decision is over...that had to be the hardest one I made throughout the process! As for performance...I don't think I could touch my 914 with any other engine. I have seen as high as 1800 ft./min climb and have not hit Vx yet as the angle is uncomfortably steep. Cruise I get 118 to 120 TAS at 6000' @ 5000 rpm and 30" MAP (5000 and 31" is 75%). I suspect the speed will increase 5 mph or so when I get the stabilizer adjustment covers on. I think I could increase it another 5 mph if I got rid of my 850s and added all the strut fairings but I like the tires and I am sick of building so they will have to wait. The best part is that because of the turbo, above 12,500' (I fly from a 4500' field elevation) I am faster than my buddies 182 and I can still slow it down like a Kitfox should for landing....I love these planes! -------- Darin Hawkes Series 7 (Phase 1 - Flight Testing) 914 Turbo Kaysville, Utah Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3706#203706 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:20:15 PM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Jabiru Good info. Thanks Darin. Deke do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "darinh" Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 6:58 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Jabiru > > Here is some research I did when deciding which engine I would put on my > Series 7 for those who are interested. > > Rotax > 912s 141 lbs $19,373 > 914 166 lbs $31,413 (Thank goodness I didn't pay that much!) > > Jabiru > 2200 132 lbs $13,900 > 3300 178 lbs $18,400 > > Continental (TMX Experimental) > 0-200 215lbs w/o exhaust $19,435 > IO-240 240 lbs w/o exhaust $20,135 (they also offer a FADEC version > which is injected and computer controlled...very cool but $27,888. > > I ended up going with the 914 because I wanted the best performance > throughout my flight envelope and this engine fit the bill the best. I > really like the Jabiru but the fact that it can't swing nearly as big a > prop would have limited my climb more than I had wanted. The Continentals > are simply too heavy for me. I think for a IV the continental should not > even be an option due to the weight. I know people have done it but I > would stay away from it. > > I am glad that decision is over...that had to be the hardest one I made > throughout the process! > > As for performance...I don't think I could touch my 914 with any other > engine. I have seen as high as 1800 ft./min climb and have not hit Vx yet > as the angle is uncomfortably steep. Cruise I get 118 to 120 TAS at 6000' > @ 5000 rpm and 30" MAP (5000 and 31" is 75%). I suspect the speed will > increase 5 mph or so when I get the stabilizer adjustment covers on. I > think I could increase it another 5 mph if I got rid of my 850s and added > all the strut fairings but I like the tires and I am sick of building so > they will have to wait. The best part is that because of the turbo, above > 12,500' (I fly from a 4500' field elevation) I am faster than my buddies > 182 and I can still slow it down like a Kitfox should for landing....I > love these planes! > > -------- > Darin Hawkes > Series 7 (Phase 1 - Flight Testing) > 914 Turbo > Kaysville, Utah > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3706#203706 > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:35:13 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Jabiru From: gary.algate@sandvik.com Kirk Difficult for me to give you a subjective comparison as although I have flown in the 912 Kitfox I have only owned the Jab2200 version and the 582 version. I will give you some of my figures and maybe you can make your own comparison: Plane Classic 4 MT Weight #645 Engine Jabiru2200 (Latest version Solid lifter) TBO 2,000 Hrs All performance figures with 3/4 Tanks (18 Imp Galls) and No passenger 22 deg C. ambient Climb rate WOT 1000 - 1100ft/min] Cruise (2850 rpm) 105 mph Fuel consumption at Cruise 3 Galls (Imp) - 3.7 Galls (US) Pros - Compact Light weight engine Air cooled - No hoses or radiators Direct drive / low revving engine - No Gearbox Excellent fuel consumption Runs 100LL or Mogas Price and component parts pricing much more cost effective than Rotax. Sound !!!!!! Cons Must use fixed pitch prop (to date) which limits diameter you can run. Both engines are great and I think the application and also availability of service nearby would be the deciding factor for me Take off RPM 3050 Gary Algate SMC, Exploration Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. "Kirk Martenson" Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com 10/09/2008 10:30 PM Please respond to kitfox-list@matronics.com To kitfox-list@matronics.com cc Subject Kitfox-List: Jabiru I know that there are a few people running the Jabiru in the Kitfox. Does anyone have a good comparison between the Jabiru and the Rotax 912? I have a Classic IV with a sick 912. I may be replacing the whole engine and I am considering the Jabiru. Thanks ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 04:42:07 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Jabiru From: gary.algate@sandvik.com This has started an interesting debate - once again When I first looked at the 912 and the 912S just about everybody with the 912S installation was having problems with cracking engine mounts and mufflers due to the high compression and resultant vicious start and stop sequence. I think the clutch was added to address this but not sure. On that basis in Canada there was a swing back to the 912. If you look at the Australian market where there is a strong service base for the Jabiru engines the percentage of ownership is the reverse of the numbers you are stating. Like I said - both great engines Gary Gary Algate Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. "JetPilot" Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com 11/09/2008 12:10 AM Please respond to kitfox-list@matronics.com To kitfox-list@matronics.com cc Subject Kitfox-List: Re: Jabiru There is no comparison between the Jabiru and the Rotax 912-S. It takes a heavy, 6 cylinder, 120 horsepower Jabiru to get the same performance as the 100 HP Rotax 912-S, at the expense of a much increased fuel burn. The Rotax 912-S is a much better, more reliable engine design. If you study performance of aircraft with these two engines, the Rotax 912-S wins hands down. The Rotax 912-S is more complicated than the Jabiru to install, but I am willing to do the work to end up with a better performing and more reliable plane. The statistic is that better than 80 % of all Light Sport aircraft manufactured today use the more expensive Rotax 912-S engine. There is a very good reason for this. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3585#203585 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:03:39 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Jabiru From: gary.algate@sandvik.com Jeez Now I want a 914 - sounds like the perfect combo! Gary Gary Algate Jab2200 Classic 4 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. "darinh" Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com 11/09/2008 08:38 AM Please respond to kitfox-list@matronics.com To kitfox-list@matronics.com cc Subject Kitfox-List: Re: Jabiru Here is some research I did when deciding which engine I would put on my Series 7 for those who are interested. Rotax 912s 141 lbs $19,373 914 166 lbs $31,413 (Thank goodness I didn't pay that much!) Jabiru 2200 132 lbs $13,900 3300 178 lbs $18,400 Continental (TMX Experimental) 0-200 215lbs w/o exhaust $19,435 IO-240 240 lbs w/o exhaust $20,135 (they also offer a FADEC version which is injected and computer controlled...very cool but $27,888. I ended up going with the 914 because I wanted the best performance throughout my flight envelope and this engine fit the bill the best. I really like the Jabiru but the fact that it can't swing nearly as big a prop would have limited my climb more than I had wanted. The Continentals are simply too heavy for me. I think for a IV the continental should not even be an option due to the weight. I know people have done it but I would stay away from it. I am glad that decision is over...that had to be the hardest one I made throughout the process! As for performance...I don't think I could touch my 914 with any other engine. I have seen as high as 1800 ft./min climb and have not hit Vx yet as the angle is uncomfortably steep. Cruise I get 118 to 120 TAS at 6000' @ 5000 rpm and 30" MAP (5000 and 31" is 75%). I suspect the speed will increase 5 mph or so when I get the stabilizer adjustment covers on. I think I could increase it another 5 mph if I got rid of my 850s and added all the strut fairings but I like the tires and I am sick of building so they will have to wait. The best part is that because of the turbo, above 12,500' (I fly from a 4500' field elevation) I am faster than my buddies 182 and I can still slow it down like a Kitfox should for landing....I love these planes! -------- Darin Hawkes Series 7 (Phase 1 - Flight Testing) 914 Turbo Kaysville, Utah Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3706#203706 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:45:50 PM PST US From: Kitfoxkirk Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Jabiru Lowell, I think you guys will remember me. I have been off the list for about 2 years now since my 912 UL Sh*t the bed. I have tried everything to try to fix the rough running engine (which causes the carbs to leak gas out of the vent tube while flying). I trailered the entire aircraft down to a maintenance facility in southern Wisconsin. It has been there for nearly a year. The engine is now at Leading Edge Air Foils in Lyons WI and they don't have a clue as to why it is running that way. Eric Tucker himself looked at this engine and cannot figure it out. They say it is beyond repair and they do not know why. Rotax will not stand behind the engine as they say it is out of warranty. It has less than 400 hours on it. So, I was looking for an alternative to the 912 UL. I would like something American made. The continental was looking good, but it is too heavy. I was considering the Jabiru, but the foreign made thing scares me with the parts and service (been there done that with Rotax). If Lycoming or Continental made a small 130 lb engine installed, I could have brought it right over to Buldoc at Anoka here in MN. If I had the financial backing, I would like to make an engine right here in MN and sell it for a fair price and service it 100%. I would use "Six Sigma" and "Lean Manufacturing" Techniques . I would hold true to the "Toyota Way" (that was really invented by Henry Ford). I know there is a rotary engine being produced in the USA that is comparable to the Rotax in weight and horsepower, but I think it is a two stroke, and it has not been proven. Maybe I could invent a small 120 hp / 100 pound turbine for the Kitfox...Hmmmmm. Anyone want to start an engine manufacturing plant with me? The engine would have to be lubricated with vegetable oil, and run on water. OK, I'm tired... sorry for the rant. I will probably purchase another 912UL and hope that this one will work through to the full TBO. Kirk On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 9:10 AM, Lowell Fitt wrote: > > Kirk, > > For all the Rotax guys, could you comment on the sickness? > > Lowell > > do not archive > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirk Martenson" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 5:51 AM > Subject: Kitfox-List: Jabiru > > > I know that there are a few people running the Jabiru in the Kitfox. Does >> anyone have a good comparison between the Jabiru and the Rotax 912? >> >> I have a Classic IV with a sick 912. I may be replacing the whole engine >> and >> I am considering the Jabiru. >> >> >> Thanks >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:45:50 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Lights Spec sheets are most interesting. The LEDs seem to have pretty good voltage and current flexibility but it is worth noting that they should not be run in reversed polarity. The junctions also get a lot warmer (well over 100C) than I would have expected. Light output is quite high and the spectrum width is still quite narrow. I think these diodes would make good NAV lights especially if used in multiples of the star or flood configuration. Thanks This has been most interesting. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Frederick Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 11:31 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Lights This may have been mentioned before, or may not even apply... About 2 years ago I worked with a project that required high intensity lighting, for this application we used a philips device called 'luxeon emitters'. If anyone is interested here is the website: http://www.lumileds.com/products/line.cfm?lineId=18 Rick, Kitfox IV / 912ul / 50% do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lowell Fitt" Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 7:44 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Lights > > Rick, > > "A LED is a LED" is not entirely true unless you are not too interested in > high light output. High intensity LEDS are a pretty new and exciting > development. There are LED products on the market now that weren't > available a year ago. Keep in mind that they are amperage sensitive so > output will vary with voltage shifts as we put the 12 or 14+ volts > through them depending on battery condition or charge voltage - hence the > requirement for a regulated power supply. It's not like buying a couple > of fifty cent LEDs and putting a resister in the circuit to keep from > flrying them, unless all you need are low light output panel indicators. > The Lancair guy, I helped in the build, is in the forefront of LED powered > fluorescent tube replacement technology here. It won't be long before all > interior lighting is LED based and the incandescent bulbs, fluorescent > tubes and twisted bulbs will be in museum displays for our grandkids to > look at and laugh. These units won't be full of the LEDs available at > Radio Shack. Again, go to Kitplanes and read the three articles on this > subject ending with the October issue. The Modules recommended in this > article are available from Mouser for $9 to $11 a pop depending on color. > It is interesting that the current requirement varies with color and the > power supplies are slightly different to provide for that. > > Also keep in mind that these are collision avoidance items and light > output is an important consideration. > > Lowell > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "JetPilot" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 11:29 AM > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Lights > > >> >> Harry means LED lights, and yes the LED lights made for airplanes are way >> more expensive than they need to be. I will also be looking for a better >> cheaper source for the LED lights for my Kitfox. They dont have to be >> aircraft LED's, an LED is an LED and will last for 50,000 hours or more >> while consuming only 10 % of the power of a traditional light... As >> long as I can mount the LED's to the airplane in a nice way I will be >> happy. >> >> >> Rick, >> >> What is Code 3 ??? >> >> Mike >> >> -------- >> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you >> could have !!! >> >> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3425#203425 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 07:53:32 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Lights Gee Michel... You won't know if you're coming or going :-) Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michel Verheughe Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 4:07 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Lights > From: Noel Loveys [noelloveys@yahoo.ca] > I also have red and green LEDs > in my lamp posts at the end of the driveway ( red right return same as > navigation ) Ah, but then you use the IALA system B, my friend! If I ever drive to your home, I would be confused, accustomed to the European system A that has red on red and green on green when sailing TOWARD a harbour! :-) Cheers, Michel Verheughe Norway Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 .... flying as PAX Do not archive 


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________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 07:58:42 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Lights Nice looking units ! From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Catz631@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 9:48 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Lights Just sold my Whelen wingtip strobes on Ebay for almost $400. That really reduced the price of my Aveoflash strobe/running light led units that I installed on my aircraft and bought from Spruce ($600 the pair). These self contained units fastened right to the wingtips with a minimum of effort and I am in business.All sealed in a lump of plastic with no power pack.It couldn't be more simple! Power use is 750 ma for the two. They are bright ! (even with the leads attached to a simple 9 volt battery) One of my better purchases(next to Lowells trim system--but not that good!) Dick Maddux Fox 4-1200 Pensacola,fl _____ Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com. ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 08:03:47 PM PST US From: Michael Gibbs Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Jabiru Kirk sez: >Anyone want to start an engine manufacturing plant with me? The >engine would have to be lubricated with vegetable oil, and run on >water... No, but I'll be first in line to buy one from you when you get it into production! Mike G. N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster Phoenix, AZ Do not archive ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 09:12:08 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Jabiru From: "JetPilot" aviateer wrote: > > They say it is beyond repair and they do not know why. Rotax will not stand behind the engine as they say it is out of warranty. It has less than 400 hours on it. > > Kirk, That really sucks. There must be someone somewhere that can figure this out... Keep trying, someone will probably hit on it sooner or later. I would suggest you call Lockwood Aviation technical support line, and ask for Kerry, he is their most experienced mechanic. Its a long shot, but if I was in your situation, I would be trying anything and everything ( As long as it did not cost to much money [Wink] ). The call is free.. Mike -------- "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3751#203751 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.