Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:37 AM - Re: Grey head 582 upgrade to blue head (Dave)
2. 05:39 AM - Re: CHT probe placement (Lynn Matteson)
3. 06:39 AM - Re: Grey head 582 upgrade to blue head (patrick reilly)
4. 07:01 AM - Re: 2-stroke oil (Marco Menezes)
5. 07:03 AM - Re: Grey head 582 upgrade to blue head (Noel Loveys)
6. 07:13 AM - Re: 2-stroke oil (patrick reilly)
7. 07:19 AM - Re: 582 Oil Reservoir (Marco Menezes)
8. 07:27 AM - Re: Gearbox wear (Marco Menezes)
9. 07:29 AM - Re: Grey head 582 upgrade to blue head (patrick reilly)
10. 08:40 AM - Re: 2-stroke oil (Marco Menezes)
11. 08:51 AM - Re: 582 vs 503 (JetPilot)
12. 09:33 AM - Re: 582 Oil Reservoir (Bob Brennan)
13. 09:42 AM - Re: CHT probe placement (Pete Christensen)
14. 10:05 AM - Re: 2-stroke oil (Perkins, Mike)
15. 12:53 PM - need a 912 exhaust system (Jim_and_Lucy Chuk)
16. 01:43 PM - Re: Grey head 582 upgrade to blue head (akflyer)
17. 03:29 PM - Re: CHT probe placement (Lynn Matteson)
18. 03:36 PM - Re: 582 Oil Reservoir (Marco Menezes)
19. 03:51 PM - Re: Re: Grey head 582 upgrade to blue head (patrick reilly)
20. 04:10 PM - Re: 582 Oil Reservoir (Bob Brennan)
21. 04:16 PM - Re: CHT probe placement (gary.algate@sandvik.com)
22. 06:22 PM - Rotax 582 starter problems (steve shinabery)
23. 06:36 PM - Re: Re: Grey head 582 upgrade to blue head (Noel Loveys)
24. 06:41 PM - Re: 2-stroke oil (Paul A. Franz, P.E.)
25. 06:49 PM - Re: CHT probe placement (Noel Loveys)
26. 07:02 PM - Re: Re: Grey head 582 upgrade to blue head (Noel Loveys)
27. 07:03 PM - Re: Rotax 582 starter problems (Noel Loveys)
28. 07:44 PM - Re: CHT probe placement (Lynn Matteson)
29. 09:16 PM - Re: CHT probe placement (Paul A. Franz, P.E.)
30. 10:52 PM - bending aluminum tubing (Harry Cieslar)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Grey head 582 upgrade to blue head |
I spoke to a couple of the better ebuild shops and they both felt that
an "upgrade" would be expensive and unnescessary. Both felt the original
design was perfectly fine.
Dave G
Mod IV 1050/582
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Pat Reilly
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 6:49 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Grey head 582 upgrade to blue head
Kitfoxers, Should I change out the reed valves and seals on my grey
head while I'm rebuilding the plane. And can I do it with the engine in
the plane?
do not archive
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: CHT probe placement |
Thanks Gary, and by the way, someone smarter than me (and that
includes nearly the world population) suggested that I put one of the
other t'couples back under the spark plug and do a side-by-side
comparison....DUH! why didn't I think of that? I have just
resurrected one of the spark plug terminals and will rob a
thermocouple from an adjacent head, install the plug terminal, and do
that very thing. I think it best to do a flight first and record the
temps that I'm getting, so I can then do a cyl-to-cyl temp variation
chart, then with the one cylinder rigged with the two t'couples,
interpret/guess what the variation between the two locations should
be...within reason of course, then apply this to the other cylinders.
Interesting that you get away with the gasket not being right next to
the head. When Jabiru says to do the gasket removal, t'couple
placement, gasket re-installation, they are creating a lot of work
for us guys with all 4 spark plugs so being monitored. Why haven't
THEY (Jabiru) done their homework, and sorted all this out for us?
There are times that I think that Jabiru hires only engineers who
also have a law degree! (sorry to all you lawyers out there, but this
whole litigation climate in this country and others SUCKS!!)
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster
Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs, and counting...all systems are go, or nearly so...
On Sep 30, 2008, at 2:28 AM, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote:
>
> Lynn
>
> I have my CHT probe directly under the Spark Plug but I don't
> remove the plug gasket so it is sandwiched under the gasket
> directly on the head.
>
> This is the way most of the Aussies have their CHT probes set up. I
> never have any signs of leak either.
>
> My CHT's read as we discussed earlier 275 - 295 Cruise and now as
> it is getting warmer here I am seeing up to 330 in climb.
>
> I recently modified my lower cowl again to get more air out.
>
> I will get some comments from the factory about t=your findings
>
> Gary
>
> Gary Algate
> SMC, Exploration
> Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
>
>
> This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the
> addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of
> this message by persons or entities other than the intended
> recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error,
> kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the
> message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for
> any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may
> arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
>
>
> Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> 28/09/2008 09:43 AM
> Please respond to
> kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
> To
> jabiruengine-list@matronics.com, jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com,
> kitfox-list@matronics.com
> cc
> Subject
> Kitfox-List: CHT probe placement
>
>
>
> When I recently rebuilt my Jabiru 2200 engine, I decided it was time
> to make the CHT probe move to a better location, and avoid the
> dreaded spark plug gasket removal and replacement problem. I didn't
> like the idea of putting the probe under a head bolt as some have
> done, fearing the idea of putting 24 lbs of torque on a copper
> terminal, so I followed another poster's idea and drilled and tapped
> a hole in the head between, and slightly below, the spark plug
> locations. Now I find that the temperature readings are quite a bit
> above the reported 10 degrees or so difference (from the spark plug
> locations) that I have read about for the head bolt locations. I have
> looked into this and have decided that the spark plug probes (mine
> anyway) position the thermocouple wire attachment point...the point
> where the actual reading is made, the "business end" if you will,
> (and it is NOT the area that actually touches the head)...one-half
> inch above the head surface, and well into the airflow that goes past
> this area. This spark plug thermocouple is further insulated by
> having it *above* the spark plug gasket, making it even further from
> the cylinder head, albeit by a very small amount. I believe this 1/2"
> of separation from the head is enough to place the "business end" of
> the t'couple in the relatively cool air passing by. I used to see
> CHT's of an average of about 275 F, while I now see my CHT's read
> about 350-360 F, and up to about 385 F in climb, at 1500' MSL, @
> 80 F ambient. Straight and level flight after a 5 minute settling
> down period after climbout will see the 350's I mentioned. My
> thermocouple attachment point...the business end...is now closer to
> the head, and tucked between the head and a fin instead of sticking
> up into the airflow, so I can accept the higher readings, especially
> when the engine is running so strong now and climbing better than I
> recall it doing before the engine breakdown. I might add that each
> flight sees lower CHT's as the engine breaks in.
> Any comments?
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster
> Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs, and counting...all systems are go.
>
>
> www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List _-
> www.matronics.com/contribution _-
> ===========================================================
Message 3
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| Subject: | Grey head 582 upgrade to blue head |
Dave=2C Thanks for the info.
do not archive
Pat
From: occom@ns.sympatico.caTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: Re: Kitfox
-List: Grey head 582 upgrade to blue headDate: Tue=2C 30 Sep 2008 07:36:16
-0300
I spoke to a couple of the better ebuild shops and they both felt that an "
upgrade" would be expensive and unnescessary. Both felt the original design
was perfectly fine.
Dave G
Mod IV 1050/582
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Pat Reilly
Sent: Monday=2C September 29=2C 2008 6:49 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Grey head 582 upgrade to blue head
Kitfoxers=2C Should I change out the reed valves and seals on my grey head
while I'm rebuilding the plane. And can I do it with the engine in the pla
ne?
do not archive
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford=2C IL
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhr
ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: 2-stroke oil |
It's all I've ever used Pat. I understand it was formulated expressly for R
otax 2 strokes. I've not had the engine apart but the compression today at
140 hours is unchanged from what it was following break-in. So far, so good
.
-
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1
--- On Mon, 9/29/08, Pat Reilly <patreilly43@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Pat Reilly <patreilly43@hotmail.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: 2-stroke oil
Kitfoxers, I know the archives are full of opinoins on oils. The 582 grey h
ead I purchased used was sold to me with 100 hrs as time on it. I pulled th
e exhaust off, looked in the ports and can't believe the cross hatch patter
n in the bore. To me it looks as if the engine was never even broken in. Th
e previous owner was in California anfd said he used AV2 oil. Over the last
30 years I have used AMS Oil in every type of 2 stroke engine application
you can name. I swear by it. (Dave I know that the petro based oils give be
tter corrosion resistance in humid conditions and I am a little afraid of t
he synthetic in for my plane as I know my hanger is not heated and condensa
tionis a big problem. Now, after looking at my pristene bores-after-100
hrs with AV2 I think I would be remiss not to use AV2. What do you guys th
ink of AV2?
-
do not archive
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL-
=0A=0A=0A
Message 5
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| Subject: | Grey head 582 upgrade to blue head |
I hate to state the obvious but the only reed valves anywhere close to a 582
are in the impulse fuel pump.... the 582 has a rotary valve for intake.
Talk to a repair depot about checking the seal on the RV shaft.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pat Reilly
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 8:19 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Grey head 582 upgrade to blue head
Kitfoxers, Should I change out the reed valves and seals on my grey head
while I'm rebuilding the plane. And can I do it with the engine in the
plane?
do not archive
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
Message 6
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Marco=2C Where do you get AV2. I see CPS has it. Seems like thats a long wa
y to ship it. But=2C getting direct to the house is convient.
do not archive
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford=2C IL
Kitfox-List: 2-stroke oilTo: kitfox-list@matronics.com
It's all I've ever used Pat. I understand it was formulated expressly for R
otax 2 strokes. I've not had the engine apart but the compression today at
140 hours is unchanged from what it was following break-in. So far=2C so go
od.
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1--- On Mon=2C 9/29/08=2C Pat Reilly <patreilly43@ho
tmail.com> wrote:
From: Pat Reilly <patreilly43@hotmail.com>Subject: Kitfox-List: 2-stroke oi
lTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comDate: Monday=2C September 29=2C 2008=2C 6:45
PM
Kitfoxers=2C I know the archives are full of opinoins on oils. The 582 grey
head I purchased used was sold to me with 100 hrs as time on it. I pulled
the exhaust off=2C looked in the ports and can't believe the cross hatch pa
ttern in the bore. To me it looks as if the engine was never even broken in
. The previous owner was in California anfd said he used AV2 oil. Over the
last 30 years I have used AMS Oil in every type of 2 stroke engine applicat
ion you can name. I swear by it. (Dave I know that the petro based oils giv
e better corrosion resistance in humid conditions and I am a little afraid
of the synthetic in for my plane as I know my hanger is not heated and cond
ensationis a big problem. Now=2C after looking at my pristene bores after 1
00 hrs with AV2 I think I would be remiss not to use AV2. What do you guys
think of AV2?
do not archive
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford=2C IL
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
Message 7
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| Subject: | 582 Oil Reservoir |
I use the flapperons (about 10 degrees or less) for nose down trim at cruis
e speeds (60-70 mph). As power is reduced, flapperons return to neutral. Wi
th no flaps and cruise power, airplane will climb. My CG is dead-center of
the range.
-
You must get egt gauges Bob. With a 2 stroke, it is probably the most impor
tant engine instrument on your panel. It will tell you immediately if mixtu
re is too lean (High egt) and prevent melting holes in your pistons. Checki
ng the color of your plugs frequently will also tell you alot about fuel bu
rn (lean-rich). You're shooting for a light brown color. No black soot (too
rich) or gray ash (too lean). Mike Stratmann wrote a good article ("Part 9
") on reading plugs. Check it out at: -http://www.800-airwolf.com/article
s.htm
-
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1
--- On Mon, 9/29/08, Bob Brennan <matronics@bob.brennan.name> wrote:
From: Bob Brennan <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 582 Oil Reservoir
The cylinder head is gray, so it's a model 90. I believe the "blue head" di
dn't come out until 1991-92 and mine was flying by then.
-
Hard to believe that using flaperons for trim would increase drag that much
, although I know as soon as I pull on the flap lever the nose tips down a
*lot* (the difference between seeing the runway and flying blind) and I hav
e to add power. I can also reset the trim tab for neutral stick - only with
full flap does it not trim out but at that setting it's like having air br
akes.
-
How much flap do you need to add for trim? How does it fly with no "flaps"
- nose up or nose down? Maybe it's basically tail-heavy and you need to add
flap (ie drag) to fly level? As you add speed the nose tends to pitch up,
so you add flap(drag) to counteract? Sorry so many questions but I have nev
er used the flaps for trim so don't know. The PFA (oversight for UK KF buil
ds) issues a build document that basically says using flaps for trim is bad
, and describes the elevator trim installation instead.
-
I don't have EGT gauges but should probably look into that, I feel left out
.
-
I changed the plugs and wires not too long ago and haven't checked since, s
hould be about due. I had to change them for a different type because the p
lug wires had a tendency to get loose. I will inspect the plugs after fixin
g the water temp gauge and reserve warning sensor light problems are fixed.
What's the ratio on these things - 15 minutes of repair per hour used? ;-)
Almost as bad as a chainsaw!
-
Bob Brennan - N717GB
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa--
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-serv
er@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes
Sent: 29 September 2008 6:11 pm
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 582 Oil Reservoir
If the cylinder head is natural metal colored (gray) it's the model 90. If
the head is blue it's the 99.
-
I don't have elevator trim so I use the flaperons instead. I realize this m
akes an already draggy-airplane draggier still but it's simple and I have
no complaints about the flight characteristics or engine performance other
than the relatively high fuel consumption (and low TBO) which is typical o
f two strokes. Someday I might install a trim tab if it will save fuel at c
ruise.
-
WOT my 582-yields about 5800 rpm on the same prop you're swinging, so you
r'e pitched a little finer. My empty wt is 535, with me and typical fuel (1
0 gal), TOW is about 750. Climbs out at 1000-1100 fpm (WOT) with egt's at 1
050-1100 degrees.
-
What are your egt's running? How do your plugs look?
-
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1
-
-
-
-
--- On Mon, 9/29/08, Bob Brennan <matronics@bob.brennan.name> wrote:
From: Bob Brennan <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 582 Oil Reservoir
It certainly sounds atypical from all the posts I have seen here, but it is
spot on to what it says in the Owners Manual.
-
Here's some facts:
The engine was purchased in 1989 so I assume that is a "gray head"
It went for about 600 hours before a complete rebuild
It is now a little over 200 hours since the rebuild
I have the optional ground-adjustable GSC props and I think the "B" reducti
on gearbox
My weight-and-balance shows an empty weight of 525 lbs
With me and-typical fuel = 732 lbs
When I am solo I rarely go WOT, 6000 rpm has more than enough power, max rp
m is posted as 6300
I typically cruise at 5000-5500, descend at 4000, idle at 3000
-
I *never* use flaperons for trim, I have a horiz stab tab that works great.
I know one time I did a short-field takeoff and cruised for a while at 1 n
otch of flaps, I had a *lot* of trouble maintaining cruise and was no doubt
burning a lot. Personally I think my model 2 is light, fairly clean (no ad
ded fairings no),-and trim. Now if only I could say the same for myself!
-
Personally I was a bit worried I was running a bit lean, especially with wa
ter temps high recently. But since the burn rate is exactly on spec and the
temp gauge/sensor has actually failed I am not as worried.
-
Spot anything there that might make the difference?
-
Bob Brennan - N717GB
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa--
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-serv
er@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes
Sent: 29 September 2008 9:57 am
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 582 Oil Reservoir
I don't know that mine's set up any differently. I adjusted it per the book
. At 140 hrs, it runs great and the plugs look like just-they're supposed
to. I'm interested in how you get a 582 to average a 2.5 g/hr fuel burn. N
ow that's atypical.
-
A 582-90 is the "gray head." The "blue head" is a 582-99.
-
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1
--- On Sun, 9/28/08, Bob Brennan <matronics@bob.brennan.name> wrote:
From: Bob Brennan <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 582 Oil Reservoir
Ok, getting empirical<g> (in the UK-it was called "anally retentive")...
-
According to my operators manual the Model II with a 582LC gets 2.1 gph at
65 mph cruise, and 3.7 at 85. I recon I burn about 2.5/hr at my usual 75mph
which is in line with the specs but I should verify that.
-
The "Care and Feeding of Your Rotax" manual says the injection pump should
deliver between 50:1 and 70:1; which at 2.5 gph (10 quarts/hr) means I shou
ld go between 5 hours (50 qts gas to 1 qt oil) and 7 hours (70:1) on-my 1
qt reservoir bottle-full. My recent Airworthiness Cert test time was 5 hour
s and I recall topping it up-when it reached-the half-way mark twice in
6 hours, so that's 60:1, right on the money.
-
So that sounds about right on my setup - what's different on yours? What's
a "582-90"?
-
Bob Brennan - N717GB
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa--
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-serv
er@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes
Sent: 28 September 2008 5:56 pm
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 582 Oil Reservoir
Nothing at all empirical about this Bob. I burn "about" 4.5 g/hr in my 582.
After a flight lasting "about" an hour, it seems to take "about" 1/2 of a
quart to top off the oil tank. Hard to tell exactly as those oil bottles ar
e black and opaque. Next time I fly I'll try to remember to quantify those
variables-more precisely and get back to you.
-
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1
--- On Sun, 9/28/08, Bob Brennan <matronics@bob.brennan.name> wrote:
From: Bob Brennan <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 582 Oil Reservoir
A pint an hour Marco?! At what gal/hr rate? Sounds like a thick mix to me,
or is mine mixing too thin? My container holds a quart, and I fill it when
it gets 1/2 empty (or is that 1/2 full? optimist/pessimist?) which is proba
bly every third or fourth top-off of the main tank (5 gals per top-off =
1 20L gerry can). I get 2 fills out of a quart of oil.
-
Sounds like another subject that needs some empirical measurements, and I,
for one, shouldn't take for granted(?)
-
Bob Brennan - N717GB
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa--
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-serv
er@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes
Sent: 28 September 2008 10:51 am
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 582 Oil Reservoir
Pat,
-
My Model 2 came with a plastic tank. I haven't measured it's capacity but i
t looks to be well under 1 gal. I'd guess maybe 1/2 gal. The engine seems t
o use about a pint an hour.
-
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1
--- On Sat, 9/27/08, Pat Reilly <patreilly43@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Pat Reilly <patreilly43@hotmail.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: 582 Oil Reservoir
Kitfoxers, I am ready to mount my 582 that I purchased firewall forward com
plete. There is a round-steel oil reservoir tank with a plastic sight tub
e.-The tank-looks as if-it has a 1 1/2 gallon capacity. My question i
s, isn't that an awlfull lot of oil. Are you 582 drivers carrying that big
-of an oil reservoir tank?
-
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL-
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| Subject: | Re: Gearbox wear |
Hi Cory.
-
I have the 3:1 C-Box. Only issue I've had was "slippage" which produced a r
eally scary over-rev condition. Fortunately, this was on the ground while d
oing a break-in run-up. Turns out there was a service bulletin on that so t
he box came off and went to LEAF for repair/upgrade. No problems since, eit
her with backlash or making metal.
-
Marco Menezes N99KX
Kitfox 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1
--- On Mon, 9/29/08, corbob13 <corbob13@netnet.net> wrote:
From: corbob13 <corbob13@netnet.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Gearbox wear
<corbob13@netnet.net>
Guys (especially Dave),
My plane's in for annual and my A&P is hesitating to sing the book
because of an issue with the gearbox. When he drained the lube he noticed
a lot
of very fine metal particles in it. He's also worried about the amount of
backlash in the gears. I thought the backlash was a little much but since
I've only got a few hours on my engine from an overhaul I've ignored
it. He compared the amount of backlash to other planes on the field with
similar setups and found the others to have little to no backlash in the ge
ar
sets.
I spoke to LEAF, who did the overhaul, and they said it was normal, both th
e
metal and the backlash. I asked at what level the backlash should be a con
cern,
but they said there was no limit.
What kind of experiences have other had with their gearboxes? Do you see a
ny
amount of metal particles in the gear oil? How about backlash? I have a 5
82
model 90 with a "B" box.
--------
Cory
N903DB
Kitfox Model II, Rotax 582
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 6841#206841
=0A=0A=0A
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| Subject: | Grey head 582 upgrade to blue head |
Noel=2C Yeah=2C Deke already corrected me. I knew they had rotary valves=2C
but all the motorcycles i've owned had reed valves. Takes a long time to c
hange concepts. Can that valve shaft seal be changed with engine in the pla
ne?
do not archive
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford=2C IL
From: noelloveys@yahoo.caTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Kitfox-L
ist: Grey head 582 upgrade to blue headDate: Tue=2C 30 Sep 2008 11:29:12 -0
230
I hate to state the obvious but the only reed valves anywhere close to a 58
2 are in the impulse fuel pump.... the 582 has a rotary valve for intake.
Talk to a repair depot about checking the seal on the RV shaft.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-serv
er@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pat ReillySent: Monday=2C September 29=2C 20
08 8:19 PMTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: Kitfox-List: Grey head 582
upgrade to blue head
Kitfoxers=2C Should I change out the reed valves and seals on my grey head
while I'm rebuilding the plane. And can I do it with the engine in the pla
ne?
do not archive
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford=2C IL http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-Listhttp://forums
.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution
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That's where I get it Pat. Awhile back, someone on this list who had switch
ed engines offered up a case of quarts which I purchased. I'm down to 2 or
3 now so I'll be going back to CPS for more soon.
-
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1
-
do not archive
--- On Tue, 9/30/08, patrick reilly <patreilly43@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: patrick reilly <patreilly43@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 2-stroke oil
#yiv1422645412 .hmmessage P
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Marco, Where do you get AV2. I see CPS has it. Seems like thats a long way
to ship it. But, getting direct to the house is convient.
do not archive
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
From: msm_9949@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 2-stroke oil
It's all I've ever used Pat. I understand it was formulated expressly for R
otax 2 strokes. I've not had the engine apart but the compression today at
140 hours is unchanged from what it was following break-in. So far, so good
.
-
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1
--- On Mon, 9/29/08, Pat Reilly <patreilly43@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Pat Reilly <patreilly43@hotmail.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: 2-stroke oil
Kitfoxers, I know the archives are full of opinoins on oils. The 582 grey h
ead I purchased used was sold to me with 100 hrs as time on it. I pulled th
e exhaust off, looked in the ports and can't believe the cross hatch patter
n in the bore. To me it looks as if the engine was never even broken in. Th
e previous owner was in California anfd said he used AV2 oil. Over the last
30 years I have used AMS Oil in every type of 2 stroke engine application
you can name. I swear by it. (Dave I know that the petro based oils give be
tter corrosion resistance in humid conditions and I am a little afraid of t
he synthetic in for my plane as I know my hanger is not heated and condensa
tionis a big problem. Now, after looking at my pristene bores-after-100
hrs with AV2 I think I would be remiss not to use AV2. What do you guys th
ink of AV2?
-
do not archive
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL-
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Message 11
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Even IF there was a weight savings, it would not be a good choice safety wise to
have an underpowered engine on you plane. The extra 14 HP will make a big
difference in climb rates, there have been many many accidents where the pilot
was close did not have quite enough power to make it.... Or to get himself out
of trouble.
The other issue to consider is power failure after takeoff. If you lose your engine
after takeoff, you will be a lot higher with the 582 than you would be with
the 503, giving you more options and time to find a better place to land.
Power = More safety.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could
have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 6925#206925
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| Subject: | 582 Oil Reservoir |
I have dug out some build documentation - two MANDATORY modifications issued
by the PFA. The first describes adding the horizontal trim tab for those who
have already built the stabilisers and those that hadn't, mine has
completely reworked tubing on the starboard side to allow for an inbuilt
tab.
The second states: "Original equipment on Kitfox does not provide for a
positive location 'gate' on the flap control lever. It was original intended
that the plane be trimmed by use of the flaps. However flight tests indicate
a more suitable situation would be to use a trim tab (adjustable) on the
elevator and use the flaps as flaps only. This is the recommended practice.
In this situation 15 degrees of flap is the maximum required in any
situation. Hence a suitable gate is required that can be clamped to the
diagonal tube framing floor to seat that will restrain total flap lever
travel to 0 - 15 degrees in say 5 degree steps"
Mine has 3 notches: 0, 15, and something between. The first "notch" adds
about 90% lift and 10% drag (% of the total effect), used for short
take-offs and nose-down on approach. The 2nd notch (15) adds 10% lift and
90% drag. I'd have to guess that your adding "10 degrees or less" is adding
a *lot* of drag at cruise speeds. I never use flap until I am down to about
55 mph approach speed, or remove it until well off the ground on take off;
in fact it is placarded never to use flaps at all above maneuvering speed,
70 mph.
EGT gauges - I looked on AircraftSpruce.com and there is a wide range of
types and prices. Can you (or anyone on the list) give recommendations for
my gray head 582 please. Also - what sensors and where do they mount?
Spark plugs - I will pull them all next time I am "under the bonnet", which
should be later today, and get back to you on the condition.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes
Sent: 30 September 2008 10:20 am
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 582 Oil Reservoir
I use the flapperons (about 10 degrees or less) for nose down trim at cruise
speeds (60-70 mph). As power is reduced, flapperons return to neutral. With
no flaps and cruise power, airplane will climb. My CG is dead-center of the
range.
You must get egt gauges Bob. With a 2 stroke, it is probably the most
important engine instrument on your panel. It will tell you immediately if
mixture is too lean (High egt) and prevent melting holes in your pistons.
Checking the color of your plugs frequently will also tell you alot about
fuel burn (lean-rich). You're shooting for a light brown color. No black
soot (too rich) or gray ash (too lean). Mike Stratmann wrote a good article
("Part 9") on reading plugs. Check it out at:
http://www.800-airwolf.com/articles.htm
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1
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| Subject: | Re: CHT probe placement |
I haven't been following this thread closely but in my own experience I
mounted a CHT probe on a Quicksilver MX and removed the washer per
instructions and soon thereafter had a plug back out almost causing an
emergency landing in a bad spot. I put a plug in WITH the washer and never
had another problem.
Pete
III 912
Hell Paso, TX
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| Subject: | Re: 2-stroke oil |
Oh, gosh. Here I go. . . I promised myself I'd never discuss 2-cycle oil
again in my life.
After the first 100 hours on my 532 and using AV-2 the whole time, I had
to replace the rings because they'd gotten stuck in the ring grooves. I
was told synthetics do this to rings. They broke when I tried to take
them out. Stuck rings cause piston blowby which causes bad things
happen. The cylinder crosshatch was still visible.
After the second 100 hours and using Penzoil 2-cycle oil the whole time,
the rings were free and floating inside the ring groves. The crosshatch
was still just as visible as after the first 100 hours.
This is just one data-point. I'm not drawing any conclusions.
Mike Perkins
Message 15
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| Subject: | need a 912 exhaust system |
Hi all=2C I am looking for a 912 exhaust system for my Kitfox 4. The eng
ine came off a Rans S-12 and I have a very nice exhaust from it that I woul
d like to trade if I could. Either way I will need the tractor style exhau
st system. I also have the 912 motor mount for the Rans S 12. Perhaps som
eone on the list will run accross or knows of someone that has what I need
or wants what I have. Thanks=2C Jim Chuk Kitfox 4 building.
======> > >
_________________________________________________________________
See how Windows Mobile brings your life together=97at home=2C work=2C or on
the go.
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| Subject: | Re: Grey head 582 upgrade to blue head |
patreilly43(at)hotmail.co wrote:
> Noel C Yeah C Deke already corrected me. I knew they had rotary valves C but
all the motorcycles i've owned had reed valves. Takes a long time to change concepts.
Can that valve shaft seal be changed with engine in the plane?
> do not archive
> Pat Reilly
> Mod 3 582 Rebuild
> Rockford C IL
>
>
>
Yes you can change it in the plane. I have. After only 15 minutes of run time.
Wanna ask me about bleeding the RV oil lol
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
95% complete
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 6950#206950
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| Subject: | Re: CHT probe placement |
I did some tests today regarding the CHT probe placements on my
Jabiru 2200 engine. I'm cross-posting this so others can benefit, and
even make assumptions regarding other engines, perhaps. I was
wondering out loud about how the different mounting locations for the
thermocouple probes might affect the readings of the cylinder head
temps. During my recent overhaul, I decided I didn't like the "under-
the-spark-plug" mounting location, so I changed to a location that
required me to drill into the head, tap it for an 8-32 machine
screw...actually a socket head cap screw...and affix the proper
electrical terminal onto the end of the t'couple probe...after
removing the spark plug terminal of course.
First I went up and got some CHT numbers as the basis for comparison.
I noted that cyl. #1 ran 317, 327, and 340 F, during various phases
of flight. Noting these, I then took the probe from cyl #3 and
attached to it a spark plug terminal (12mm), and installed it onto
the spark plug that lives over the exhaust valve on #1 cylinder. I
first removed the spark plug washer like Jabiru says to do, installed
the probe/terminal, then reinstalled the spark plug washer, and
reinstalled the plug. Then went flying again.
Here is how I'll report the numbers....I'll call the new location
(the machine screw termination) CHT, and the spark plug termination,
SP, as In (CHT/SP)
The numbers I got were as follows (with an ambient of 61 F) (drum
roll please)....initial taxiing= (250/220); taxiing further=
(266/230); climbing out= (308/232); further climbing=(321/243);
leveling off (not recorded for how long level)= (330/245); not noted
what attitude, but not climbing=(334/249); climbing again briefly=
(344/248) I noted that the max differential was 96 F, and the
climbing EGT's were in the high 1200's. I didn't have enough hands,
instruments or inclination to record every aspect of the test, but I
got enough to satisfy myself that my new locations for the CHT probes
work, and now I can rest assured that I'm not overheating the engine
as I thought I might when I first started it up with this
configuration. Needless to say, the CHT's now apparently rise more
quickly, and if you're like me, and you've been accustomed to seeing
it rise slowly and only into the low to mid- 200's, the ol' pucker
factor rises just as quickly and the finger gets close to the panic
button, but it's just numbers, and now that I've done some testing,
I'll relax a bit on this subject at least.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster
Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs, and counting...all systems are go, or nearly so...
Message 18
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| Subject: | 582 Oil Reservoir |
I have no "notches" on my flapperon lever. It's a continuous range from 0 t
o a stop at about 15 degrees which, I think, is where the "flaps" begin to
interfere with operation of the ailerons.
-
I'd like to see your tab set-up. Is it like the one on the Euro-Fox?
-
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1
--- On Tue, 9/30/08, Bob Brennan <matronics@bob.brennan.name> wrote:
From: Bob Brennan <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 582 Oil Reservoir
I have dug out some build documentation - two MANDATORY modifications issue
d by the PFA. The first describes adding the horizontal trim tab for those
who have already built the stabilisers and those that hadn't, mine has-co
mpletely reworked tubing on the starboard side to allow for an inbuilt tab.
-
The second states: "Original equipment on Kitfox does not provide for a pos
itive location 'gate' on the flap control lever. It was original intended t
hat the plane be trimmed by use of the flaps. However flight tests indicate
a more suitable situation would be to use a trim tab (adjustable) on the e
levator and use the flaps as flaps only. This is the recommended practice.
In this situation 15 degrees of flap is the maximum required in any situati
on. Hence a suitable gate is required that can be clamped to the diagonal t
ube framing floor to seat that will restrain total flap lever travel to 0 -
15 degrees in say 5 degree steps"
-
Mine has 3 notches: 0, 15, and something between. The first "notch" adds ab
out 90% lift and 10% drag (% of the total effect), used for short take-offs
and nose-down on approach. The 2nd notch (15) adds 10% lift and 90% drag.
- I'd have to guess that your adding "10 degrees or less" is adding a *lo
t* of drag at cruise speeds. I never use flap until I am down to about 55 m
ph approach speed, or remove it until well off the ground on take off; in f
act it is placarded never to use flaps at all above maneuvering speed, 70 m
ph.
-
-
EGT gauges - I looked on AircraftSpruce.com and there is a wide range of ty
pes and prices. Can you (or anyone on the list)-give recommendations for
my gray head 582 please. Also - what sensors and where do they mount?
-
Spark plugs - I will pull them all next time I am "under the bonnet", which
should be later today, and get back to you on the condition.
-
Bob Brennan - N717GB
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa--
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-serv
er@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes
Sent: 30 September 2008 10:20 am
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 582 Oil Reservoir
I use the flapperons (about 10 degrees or less) for nose down trim at cruis
e speeds (60-70 mph). As power is reduced, flapperons return to neutral. Wi
th no flaps and cruise power, airplane will climb. My CG is dead-center of
the range.
-
You must get egt gauges Bob. With a 2 stroke, it is probably the most impor
tant engine instrument on your panel. It will tell you immediately if mixtu
re is too lean (High egt) and prevent melting holes in your pistons. Checki
ng the color of your plugs frequently will also tell you alot about fuel bu
rn (lean-rich). You're shooting for a light brown color. No black soot (too
rich) or gray ash (too lean). Mike Stratmann wrote a good article ("Part 9
") on reading plugs. Check it out at: -http://www.800-airwolf.com/article
s.htm
-
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1
-
=0A=0A=0A
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Grey head 582 upgrade to blue head |
Leonard=2C I'll bite. What about bleeding the RV oil? I don't ant to change
the seal after 15 min run time.
do not archive
Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford=2C IL> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Grey head 582 upgrade to blue hea
d> From: akflyer_2000@yahoo.com> Date: Tue=2C 30 Sep 2008 13:42:49 -0700> T
" <akflyer_2000@yahoo.com>> > > patreilly43(at)hotmail.co wrote:> > Noel C
Yeah C Deke already corrected me. I knew they had rotary valves C but all t
he motorcycles i've owned had reed valves. Takes a long time to change conc
epts. Can that valve shaft seal be changed with engine in the plane?> > do
not archive> > Pat Reilly> > Mod 3 582 Rebuild> > Rockford C IL> > > > > >
> > > Yes you can change it in the plane. I have. After only 15 minutes of
run time. Wanna ask me about bleeding the RV oil lol> > --------> DO NOT AR
CHIVE> Leonard Perry> Soldotna AK> Avid "=3BC"=3B / Mk IV > 582 IVO
IFA> Full Lotus 1260> 95% complete> > > > > Read this topic online here:>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 6950#206950> > > > > > >
======> > >
Message 20
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| Subject: | 582 Oil Reservoir |
Lucky for you I already have some pix I had sent to another poster off-list
'cause it's pissin it down out there at the moment ;-)
I haven't seen the one on the Euro-Fox but I do know the UK Fox has a lot of
mods to the original kit. I seem to remember the normal (US) flaperons are
meant to be limited to around 23 degrees but I might be wrong.
The picture of the "console" shows the continuous horiz tab setting nearest
and the flap handle (with the release button on top) is on the far side, set
for zero flaps in the picture. I never use full flaps until I am lined up on
final, at that setting it is easy to run out of roll correction if a turn is
too steep on base to final. Had it happen a few times early on!
Any comments on the EGT gauge and sensor you have talked me into?
Bob Brennan - N717GB
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes
Sent: 30 September 2008 6:36 pm
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 582 Oil Reservoir
I have no "notches" on my flapperon lever. It's a continuous range from 0 to
a stop at about 15 degrees which, I think, is where the "flaps" begin to
interfere with operation of the ailerons.
I'd like to see your tab set-up. Is it like the one on the Euro-Fox?
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1
--- On Tue, 9/30/08, Bob Brennan <matronics@bob.brennan.name> wrote:
From: Bob Brennan <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 582 Oil Reservoir
I have dug out some build documentation - two MANDATORY modifications issued
by the PFA. The first describes adding the horizontal trim tab for those who
have already built the stabilisers and those that hadn't, mine has
completely reworked tubing on the starboard side to allow for an inbuilt
tab.
The second states: "Original equipment on Kitfox does not provide for a
positive location 'gate' on the flap control lever. It was original intended
that the plane be trimmed by use of the flaps. However flight tests indicate
a more suitable situation would be to use a trim tab (adjustable) on the
elevator and use the flaps as flaps only. This is the recommended practice.
In this situation 15 degrees of flap is the maximum required in any
situation. Hence a suitable gate is required that can be clamped to the
diagonal tube framing floor to seat that will restrain total flap lever
travel to 0 - 15 degrees in say 5 degree steps"
Mine has 3 notches: 0, 15, and something between. The first "notch" adds
about 90% lift and 10% drag (% of the total effect), used for short
take-offs and nose-down on approach. The 2nd notch (15) adds 10% lift and
90% drag. I'd have to guess that your adding "10 degrees or less" is adding
a *lot* of drag at cruise speeds. I never use flap until I am down to about
55 mph approach speed, or remove it until well off the ground on take off;
in fact it is placarded never to use flaps at all above maneuvering speed,
70 mph.
EGT gauges - I looked on AircraftSpruce.com and there is a wide range of
types and prices. Can you (or anyone on the list) give recommendations for
my gray head 582 please. Also - what sensors and where do they mount?
Spark plugs - I will pull them all next time I am "under the bonnet", which
should be later today, and get back to you on the condition.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes
Sent: 30 September 2008 10:20 am
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: 582 Oil Reservoir
I use the flapperons (about 10 degrees or less) for nose down trim at cruise
speeds (60-70 mph). As power is reduced, flapperons return to neutral. With
no flaps and cruise power, airplane will climb. My CG is dead-center of the
range.
You must get egt gauges Bob. With a 2 stroke, it is probably the most
important engine instrument on your panel. It will tell you immediately if
mixture is too lean (High egt) and prevent melting holes in your pistons.
Checking the color of your plugs frequently will also tell you alot about
fuel burn (lean-rich). You're shooting for a light brown color. No black
soot (too rich) or gray ash (too lean). Mike Stratmann wrote a good article
("Part 9") on reading plugs. Check it out at:
http://www.800-airwolf.com/articles.htm
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: CHT probe placement |
Great job Lynn.
This makes a lot of sense now. With my pick ups directly against the top
of the head (under the washer) I am getting readings that appear to be
midway so it really all depends upon where you take the readings -
Good luck and fly "blue side up"
Gary
Gary Algate
SMC, Exploration
Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees.
Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by
persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If
you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by
telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender
does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of
this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
01/10/2008 08:07 AM
Please respond to
kitfox-list@matronics.com
To
kitfox-list@matronics.com, jabiruengines@yahoogroups.com,
jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
cc
Subject
Re: Kitfox-List: CHT probe placement
I did some tests today regarding the CHT probe placements on my
Jabiru 2200 engine. I'm cross-posting this so others can benefit, and
even make assumptions regarding other engines, perhaps. I was
wondering out loud about how the different mounting locations for the
thermocouple probes might affect the readings of the cylinder head
temps. During my recent overhaul, I decided I didn't like the "under-
the-spark-plug" mounting location, so I changed to a location that
required me to drill into the head, tap it for an 8-32 machine
screw...actually a socket head cap screw...and affix the proper
electrical terminal onto the end of the t'couple probe...after
removing the spark plug terminal of course.
First I went up and got some CHT numbers as the basis for comparison.
I noted that cyl. #1 ran 317, 327, and 340=B0 F, during various phases
of flight. Noting these, I then took the probe from cyl #3 and
attached to it a spark plug terminal (12mm), and installed it onto
the spark plug that lives over the exhaust valve on #1 cylinder. I
first removed the spark plug washer like Jabiru says to do, installed
the probe/terminal, then reinstalled the spark plug washer, and
reinstalled the plug. Then went flying again.
Here is how I'll report the numbers....I'll call the new location
(the machine screw termination) CHT, and the spark plug termination,
SP, as In (CHT/SP)
The numbers I got were as follows (with an ambient of 61=B0 F) (drum
roll please)....initial taxiing= (250/220); taxiing further=
(266/230); climbing out= (308/232); further climbing=(321/243);
leveling off (not recorded for how long level)= (330/245); not noted
what attitude, but not climbing=(334/249); climbing again briefly=
(344/248) I noted that the max differential was 96=B0 F, and the
climbing EGT's were in the high 1200's. I didn't have enough hands,
instruments or inclination to record every aspect of the test, but I
got enough to satisfy myself that my new locations for the CHT probes
work, and now I can rest assured that I'm not overheating the engine
as I thought I might when I first started it up with this
configuration. Needless to say, the CHT's now apparently rise more
quickly, and if you're like me, and you've been accustomed to seeing
it rise slowly and only into the low to mid- 200's, the ol' pucker
factor rises just as quickly and the finger gets close to the panic
button, but it's just numbers, and now that I've done some testing,
I'll relax a bit on this subject at least.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster
Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs, and counting...all systems are go, or nearly so...
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Message 22
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| Subject: | Rotax 582 starter problems |
I need help with my starter on my Kitfox 2..I may have to take it out to
repair it..what do I need to do to get it out?is there a easy way of
getting it out with out taking the engine out too?? I have the 582 rotax
engine in it..I have now tested the starter as yet..all I hear is a
clicking from the solenoid.battery is good.I have not checked the ground
as yet.. Thanks Steve Shinabery N554KF, KF2, with 582 rotax...Home of
the 2009 Great Lakes Kitfox Fly In.
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Grey head 582 upgrade to blue head |
I seem to remember being told that part of the block had to be turned down
to accept the new ceramic seal... I guess that would require removing the
engine... What a great question.
I have had outboards for almost 50 yr now. And I've only seen one broken
reed valve. (Not my engine) The whole idea of rotary valves is new to me
too which is why I should have checked for later posts before making
mine.... Sorry... I really like the idea though.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of akflyer
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 6:13 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Grey head 582 upgrade to blue head
patreilly43(at)hotmail.co wrote:
> Noel C Yeah C Deke already corrected me. I knew they had rotary valves C
but all the motorcycles i've owned had reed valves. Takes a long time to
change concepts. Can that valve shaft seal be changed with engine in the
plane?
> do not archive
> Pat Reilly
> Mod 3 582 Rebuild
> Rockford C IL
>
>
>
Yes you can change it in the plane. I have. After only 15 minutes of run
time. Wanna ask me about bleeding the RV oil lol
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
95% complete
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 6950#206950
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: 2-stroke oil |
On Tue, September 30, 2008 10:05 am, Perkins, Mike wrote:
> Oh, gosh. Here I go. . . I promised myself I'd never discuss 2-cycle oil
> again in my life.
>
> After the first 100 hours on my 532 and using AV-2 the whole time, I had
> to replace the rings because they'd gotten stuck in the ring grooves. I
> was told synthetics do this to rings. They broke when I tried to take
> them out. Stuck rings cause piston blowby which causes bad things
> happen. The cylinder crosshatch was still visible.
>
> After the second 100 hours and using Penzoil 2-cycle oil the whole time,
> the rings were free and floating inside the ring groves. The crosshatch
> was still just as visible as after the first 100 hours.
>
> This is just one data-point. I'm not drawing any conclusions.
About 12 years ago, I did substantial research on engine oils, with the primary
concern being compatibility with usage with high lead content gasoline such as
100 LL
in 4 stroke engines, specifically for the 914. I published all the results of that
research on the KF list. During the course of that research I discovered that the
single most important factor for two stroke mixed or injected oil was ash content.
Ash
will accumulate on top of the top piston ring and cause overheating which leads
to
stuck rings, relaxed rings and in some cases seizure even when the mixture is
sufficiently rich.
So, when selecting a two stroke engine oil, getting one with near zero or zero
ash
content is what to look for. That requirement is what precludes use of most API
graded
engine oils for two stroke usage.
I'm not sure if Don Pearsall's archives of the early KF List mail is still around
but
I probably have it backed up somewhere.
--
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
PAF Consulting Engineers
Office 425.440.9505
Cell 425.241.1618
Message 25
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| Subject: | CHT probe placement |
Lynn
I don't have a Jab or for that matter I'm not too interested in installing
one... I'm still working on getting the 912 into my 'fox. Having said that
I think your report on the location of the thermocouples to be to the point
and factual. Thanks. It's always good to keep up on what's being done.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 7:59 PM
jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: CHT probe placement
I did some tests today regarding the CHT probe placements on my
Jabiru 2200 engine. I'm cross-posting this so others can benefit, and
even make assumptions regarding other engines, perhaps. I was
wondering out loud about how the different mounting locations for the
thermocouple probes might affect the readings of the cylinder head
temps. During my recent overhaul, I decided I didn't like the "under-
the-spark-plug" mounting location, so I changed to a location that
required me to drill into the head, tap it for an 8-32 machine
screw...actually a socket head cap screw...and affix the proper
electrical terminal onto the end of the t'couple probe...after
removing the spark plug terminal of course.
First I went up and got some CHT numbers as the basis for comparison.
I noted that cyl. #1 ran 317, 327, and 340 F, during various phases
of flight. Noting these, I then took the probe from cyl #3 and
attached to it a spark plug terminal (12mm), and installed it onto
the spark plug that lives over the exhaust valve on #1 cylinder. I
first removed the spark plug washer like Jabiru says to do, installed
the probe/terminal, then reinstalled the spark plug washer, and
reinstalled the plug. Then went flying again.
Here is how I'll report the numbers....I'll call the new location
(the machine screw termination) CHT, and the spark plug termination,
SP, as In (CHT/SP)
The numbers I got were as follows (with an ambient of 61 F) (drum
roll please)....initial taxiing= (250/220); taxiing further=
(266/230); climbing out= (308/232); further climbing=(321/243);
leveling off (not recorded for how long level)= (330/245); not noted
what attitude, but not climbing=(334/249); climbing again briefly=
(344/248) I noted that the max differential was 96 F, and the
climbing EGT's were in the high 1200's. I didn't have enough hands,
instruments or inclination to record every aspect of the test, but I
got enough to satisfy myself that my new locations for the CHT probes
work, and now I can rest assured that I'm not overheating the engine
as I thought I might when I first started it up with this
configuration. Needless to say, the CHT's now apparently rise more
quickly, and if you're like me, and you've been accustomed to seeing
it rise slowly and only into the low to mid- 200's, the ol' pucker
factor rises just as quickly and the finger gets close to the panic
button, but it's just numbers, and now that I've done some testing,
I'll relax a bit on this subject at least.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster
Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs, and counting...all systems are go, or nearly so...
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Grey head 582 upgrade to blue head |
I think Leonard was talking about replacing an RV seal not refitting for the
newer ceramic seal... Oh yes... if the injection pump isn't properly bled
then the RV seal will get no oil and it will go that way.. Amazing it would
actually last 15 min.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of patrick reilly
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 8:21 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Grey head 582 upgrade to blue head
Leonard, I'll bite. What about bleeding the RV oil? I don't ant to change
the seal after 15 min run time.
do not archive
Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Grey head 582 upgrade to blue head
> From: akflyer_2000@yahoo.com
> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 13:42:49 -0700
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
>
>
> patreilly43(at)hotmail.co wrote:
> > Noel C Yeah C Deke already corrected me. I knew they had rotary valves C
but all the motorcycles i've owned had reed valves. Takes a long time to
change concepts. Can that valve shaft seal be changed with engine in the
plane?
> > do not archive
> > Pat Reilly
> > Mod 3 582 Rebuild
> > Rockford C IL
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Yes you can change it in the plane. I have. After only 15 minutes of run
time. Wanna ask me about bleeding the RV oil lol
>
> --------
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
> Leonard Perry
> Soldotna AK
> Avid "C" / Mk IV
> 582 IVO IFA
> Full Lotus 1260
> 95% complete
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 6950#206950
>
>
>
>
>
>===================
>
>
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Rotax 582 starter problems |
I have heard of one guy who made his engine mount so it can be opened like a
door to get at the back of the engine. He had a Merlin GT, not a Kitfox.
The trouble with the installation of the starter on the 582 is it has to
have some space for the starter to ride in the mounts. Too tight and the
starter won't work, too loose and I guess it will fall off.
Certainly check that you have good strong grounds between the battery and
the engine itself.. Heavy braids should jump across the nice insulating
Lord mounts. Make sure where the braids are mounted are clean and shiny on
both ends.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve shinabery
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 10:53 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Rotax 582 starter problems
I need help with my starter on my Kitfox 2..I may have to take it out to
repair it..what do I need to do to get it out?is there a easy way of
getting it out with out taking the engine out too?? I have the 582 rotax
engine in it..I have now tested the starter as yet..all I hear is a
clicking from the solenoid.battery is good.I have not checked the ground
as yet.. Thanks Steve Shinabery N554KF, KF2, with 582 rotax...Home of
the 2009 Great Lakes Kitfox Fly In.
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: CHT probe placement |
Thanks, Gary. I know this really helps me to not panic when I see
those "big" numbers. All I gotta do now is to reset the "maximums" on
my EIS so I don't get false alarms. I only got the one when it went
over 392 F the first time I taxied with it, but after that it has
not lit up for overtemps even with the "hotter" probe placement. On
second thought, maybe I won't change them, as now it will just give
me an early warning, and it really won't mean anything...yet.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster
Jabiru 2200, 562 hrs, and counting...all systems are go, or nearly so...
On Sep 30, 2008, at 7:15 PM, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote:
>
> Great job Lynn.
>
> This makes a lot of sense now. With my pick ups directly against
> the top of the head (under the washer) I am getting readings that
> appear to be midway so it really all depends upon where you take
> the readings -
>
> Good luck and fly "blue side up"
>
> Gary
>
> Gary Algate
> SMC, Exploration
> Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: CHT probe placement |
On Tue, September 30, 2008 3:29 pm, Lynn Matteson wrote:
> During my recent overhaul, I decided I didn't like the "under-
> the-spark-plug" mounting location, so I changed to a location that
> required me to drill into the head, tap it for an 8-32 machine
> screw...actually a socket head cap screw...and affix the proper
> electrical terminal onto the end of the t'couple probe...after
> removing the spark plug terminal of course.
Good and useful experiment. Would you post a few photos of the thermocouple installation?
I want to do the same with my Rotax 914.
--
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
PAF Consulting Engineers
Office 425.440.9505
Cell 425.241.1618
Message 30
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| Subject: | bending aluminum tubing |
Anyone have advice on bending aluminum tubing for my pitot tube without
kinking. Thanks, Harry Cieslar, Avid Magnum Builder, Goderich Ont
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