Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:12 AM - Re: Aligning the wings (Tom Jones)
2. 08:46 AM - Re: Aligning the wings (Jim Feldmann)
3. 12:16 PM - Note on Ethanol (Rich L)
4. 01:35 PM - Re: Note on Ethanol (Frank Miles)
5. 04:57 PM - Re: Note on Ethanol (Tom Jones)
6. 05:05 PM - Header Tank Venting (SkySteve)
7. 06:05 PM - Re: Header Tank Venting (tc9008@aol.com)
8. 06:05 PM - Re: Header Tank Venting (tc9008@aol.com)
9. 06:10 PM - Re: Note on Ethanol (Rich L)
10. 06:16 PM - Re: Header Tank Venting (Dee Young)
11. 09:24 PM - Re: Re: Note on Ethanol (Paul A. Franz, P.E.)
12. 09:40 PM - Re: Header Tank Venting (Paul A. Franz, P.E.)
13. 10:18 PM - Re: Header Tank Venting (Lowell Fitt)
14. 11:03 PM - Re: Header Tank Venting (Guy Buchanan)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Aligning the wings |
Jim Feldmann wrote:
> I just bought my Kitfox and after I got it home, I discovered that the left wing
is straight from root to tip, but the right wing is twisted leading-edge down
(washed-out) about 2 degrees. I realize that this was probably done to make
it fly level with only the pilot on board, but it is excessive and the plane
has a built-in right roll, even flown solo.
>
> I am also concerned about a possible stall-spin problem from the different angle
of attack from one side to the other.
>
> The Builders Manual that I got with the airplane does not discuss wing alignment.
Can anyone tell me what the factory specs are? Should both wings be straight?
Both washed-out a degree of so? I don't know whether I should eliminate
the excess wash-out in the right wing, or twist in a little washout on the
left wing, or both?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jim Feldmann
> 1994 Kitfox Speedster/Rotax 912
> Flying
Jim, the wings are built upside down on saw horses with the saw horse tops level
or parallel in relation to each other. A 1/2" block is placed under the tip
end of the front spar to result in the finished wing having 1/2" of washout between
the spars per 13 feet. The speedster wing spars are cut after the ribs
are attached to achieve an accurate amount of twist.
In other words, the speedster wings have the same twist per foot, but a hair less
than 1/2" washout from root to tip.
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9034#209034
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| Subject: | Re: Aligning the wings |
Thanks very much guys. I will re-rig it per those specs and then see what straight
and level flight trim looks like.
--------
Jim Feldmann, 3rd owner
1994 Kitfox Speedster / 912
Flying
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9041#209041
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This MS Word Document is from the Idaho Aviation Association (IAA).
Thought it might be of interest.
Rich L
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9063#209063
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/discussion_of_ethanol_mandates_281.doc
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Rich,
When was this article written? Last year? The date on the top is October 18.
Two days from now. If so, a lot has happened since then. As I understand it
the Idaho and Washington legislation that was passed regarding ethanol fuel
mandated that "91 octane fuel is too made available for aviation and
recreational use". I just dare you to find it and no distributor, that I can
find, wants to talk about it.
Oh yes, I dropped a note to the Idaho Dept. of Aviation about his matter and
did not even get the courtesy of a response.
Frank Miles
Lewiston, Idaho
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rich L
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 12:16 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Note on Ethanol
This MS Word Document is from the Idaho Aviation Association (IAA).
Thought it might be of interest.
Rich L
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9063#209063
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/discussion_of_ethanol_mandates_281.doc
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| Subject: | Re: Note on Ethanol |
For what it's worth. I have been using Union 76 premium 92 octane in Ellensburg,
WA. I have been testing for alcohol and as of 10-13 have not found any in
76's premium. I use the EAA recommended water in a jar test. I was using Chevron
premium until the alcohol showed up about mid July this year.
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9098#209098
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| Subject: | Header Tank Venting |
My header tank (located behind the seat) is vented back to both wing tanks via
two vent lines (one to each wing tank). I was advised to install a shut off valve
in each vent line and to open those vent lines when filling the fuel tanks,
then shut the vent valves for flight.
It was mentioned that in the past, there were several crashes due to fuel starvation
when the wing tanks were full of fuel. Apparently air had mixed with the
fuel in the vent lines and vapor lock stopped the fuel flow from the wing tanks
to the header tank. The result was when the header tank ran out of fuel the
engine stopped due to fuel starvation.
Is this true? Should I install shut off valves in each of my two vent lines and
close those valves for flight?
--------
Steve Wilson
Huntsville, UT
Kitfox Model 134 - 85DD
912A / 3 Blade Warp Drive
Convertible Nosewheel & Tailwheel
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9099#209099
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| Subject: | Re: Header Tank Venting |
I have flown a Kitfox IV? 582 since 2004 and have had a problem.
Travis
-----Original Message-----
From: SkySteve <Wilson@REinfo.org>
Sent: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 8:04 pm
Subject: Kitfox-List: Header Tank Venting
My header tank (located behind the seat) is vented back to both wing tanks via
two vent lines (one to each wing tank). I was advised to install a shut off
valve in each vent line and to open those vent lines when filling the fuel
tanks, then shut the vent valves for flight.
It was mentioned that in the past, there were several crashes due to fuel
starvation when the wing tanks were full of fuel. Apparently air had mixed with
the fuel in the vent lines and vapor lock stopped the fuel flow from the wing
tanks to the header tank. The result was when the header tank ran out of fuel
the engine stopped due to fuel starvation.
Is this true? Should I install shut off valves in each of my two vent lines and
close those valves for flight?
--------
Steve Wilson
Huntsville, UT
Kitfox Model 134 - 85DD
912A / 3 Blade Warp Drive
Convertible Nosewheel & Tailwheel
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9099#209099
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Header Tank Venting |
I have flown a Kitfox IV? 582 since 2004 and have had a problem.
Travis
-----Original Message-----
From: SkySteve <Wilson@REinfo.org>
Sent: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 8:04 pm
Subject: Kitfox-List: Header Tank Venting
My header tank (located behind the seat) is vented back to both wing tanks via
two vent lines (one to each wing tank). I was advised to install a shut off
valve in each vent line and to open those vent lines when filling the fuel
tanks, then shut the vent valves for flight.
It was mentioned that in the past, there were several crashes due to fuel
starvation when the wing tanks were full of fuel. Apparently air had mixed with
the fuel in the vent lines and vapor lock stopped the fuel flow from the wing
tanks to the header tank. The result was when the header tank ran out of fuel
the engine stopped due to fuel starvation.
Is this true? Should I install shut off valves in each of my two vent lines and
close those valves for flight?
--------
Steve Wilson
Huntsville, UT
Kitfox Model 134 - 85DD
912A / 3 Blade Warp Drive
Convertible Nosewheel & Tailwheel
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9099#209099
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| Subject: | Re: Note on Ethanol |
That note just came to me from the IAA. The October 18 is the date of the board meeting where this will be discussed. Some of the information was written up on the latest newsletter on the IAA web site. (www.flyidaho.org).
Here are some of the local stations which sell non-contaminated premium fuel:
Dykes Exon in Bonners Ferry has a Pacific Pride Pump in back.
The Coop in Sandpoint.
I saw a list of other stations mostly in southern Idaho .
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9111#209111
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| Subject: | Re: Header Tank Venting |
Steve on my model II I have one vent line that runs from the header
tank. I run it up and ported it out thru a butt rib using a check valve.
It allows air in but will not let fuel run out. It works very well and
have no problems. If you go thru the archives you will find a number of
discussions on fuel tanks, venting and porting etc.
Dee Young
Model II
N345DY
KFM 112
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: SkySteve<mailto:Wilson@REinfo.org>
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com<mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 6:04 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Header Tank Venting
<Wilson@REinfo.org<mailto:Wilson@REinfo.org>>
My header tank (located behind the seat) is vented back to both wing
tanks via two vent lines (one to each wing tank). I was advised to
install a shut off valve in each vent line and to open those vent lines
when filling the fuel tanks, then shut the vent valves for flight.
It was mentioned that in the past, there were several crashes due to
fuel starvation when the wing tanks were full of fuel. Apparently air
had mixed with the fuel in the vent lines and vapor lock stopped the
fuel flow from the wing tanks to the header tank. The result was when
the header tank ran out of fuel the engine stopped due to fuel
starvation.
Is this true? Should I install shut off valves in each of my two vent
lines and close those valves for flight?
--------
Steve Wilson
Huntsville, UT
Kitfox Model 134 - 85DD
912A / 3 Blade Warp Drive
Convertible Nosewheel & Tailwheel
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9099#209099<http://forums
.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9099#209099>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List<http://www.matronics.com/N
avigator?Kitfox-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Note on Ethanol |
On Thu, October 16, 2008 4:56 pm, Tom Jones wrote:
>
> For what it's worth. I have been using Union 76 premium 92 octane in Ellensburg,
WA.
> I have been testing for alcohol and as of 10-13 have not found any in 76's premium.
I
> use the EAA recommended water in a jar test. I was using Chevron premium until
the
> alcohol showed up about mid July this year.
I can verify that Chevron is using 10% Ethanol in Bellevue WA and possibly all
of
Western Washington. It even says so on the pumps. Chevron and Exxon-Mobil are building
Bio-Diesel blending plants in Washington. The Exxon plant in Spokane will be fully
operational in December.
One thing good is that MTBE is dead. Estimates say E90 costs more and gives a uniform
8% reduction in fuel mileage. It has a lower flash point and higher vapor pressure
than gasoline so this is genuine concern with operating altitude even if you've
solved
the problems with gaskets, seals and corrosion.
Pipeline operators are not blending ethanol because they claim the corrosivity
of
ethanol threatens the integrity of the pipelines. As a result, ethanol is blended
at
the pipeline delivery points, chiefly Harbor Island in Seattle so it is likely
that
all gasoline has the 10% blend in Western Washington.
--
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
PAF Consulting Engineers
Office 425.440.9505
Cell 425.241.1618
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Header Tank Venting |
On Thu, October 16, 2008 5:04 pm, SkySteve wrote:
>
> My header tank (located behind the seat) is vented back to both wing tanks via
two
> vent lines (one to each wing tank). I was advised to install a shut off valve
in each
> vent line and to open those vent lines when filling the fuel tanks, then shut
the vent
> valves for flight.
>
> It was mentioned that in the past, there were several crashes due to fuel starvation
> when the wing tanks were full of fuel. Apparently air had mixed with the fuel
in the
> vent lines and vapor lock stopped the fuel flow from the wing tanks to the header
> tank. The result was when the header tank ran out of fuel the engine stopped
due to
> fuel starvation.
>
> Is this true? Should I install shut off valves in each of my two vent lines
and close
> those valves for flight?
I'd have to see a drawing but that doesn't make sense as I understand the
configuration. What will block the vent line is low points or multiple low points
such
that they act as a trap with fuel in it and air on both sides. It can't siphon
and
causes hydraulic blockage. As long as the vent line goes up continuously and
terminates in an air gap, you should never get a condition where there is hydraulic
blockage.
--
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
PAF Consulting Engineers
Office 425.440.9505
Cell 425.241.1618
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Header Tank Venting |
Steve,
I don't understand the thinking on the double vent unless it was done to
prevent the often seen uneven draining of the wing tanks. This phenomenon
has been discussed very often on the list and in one instance in the wilds
of Idaho it resulted in a panic stop to check for an obstruction in the fuel
lines. After carefully measuring fuel flow from each tank, we were finally
able to convince the troubled pilot that the fuel flow was fine and wasn't
going to have to put it down over the Sawtooth Mountains because of the
uneven fuel use from his wing tanks. Your double vents are a one off design
change from the factory configuration.
I don't think you will find any instances of full tank fuel starvation
proper fuel line routing and with the vents in place and putting valves in
the vent lines and closing them in flight is contrary to the current design.
Putting valves in the vent lines would conceivably serve to make fuel
system maintenance easier, but it is a lot of hardware to simply avoid
clamping the lines if maintenence is necessary. Keep in mind, the following
service letter should clear up the factory's view on the instances you refer
to.
http://www.kitfoxaircraft.com/support/service_letters/sl22.htmhttp://www.kitfoxaircraft.com/support/service_letters/sl22.htm
The referenced Service Bulletin will continue the factory comments:
http://www.kitfoxaircraft.com/support/service_bulletins/sb29.htmKeep
It is a fact that lots of us have seen what we believe to be design
weaknesses in the factory scheme and have modified according to our own
perception of safe, but many of the modifications fly in the face of a fine
history of reliability. I had 900 hours on my Model IV when I put it on the
ground because of an oil pressure drop due to a blockage of the oil line to
the pump - foreign object, and I have three friends who I flew with
regularly that each had nearly 1000 hours on Model IVs. All with one vent
line to the right wing tank, and all with no hint of fuel flow issues with
the factory configuration. Keep in mind that in a fairly steep descent with
the aft ported wing tanks, it is possible to unport the tanks if the fuel
level is below a certain amount. I found that to be true during the 30
minute descent from 12,000 ft over the Sierras, to my field elevation of
1300 ft. With the factory design, the header tank immediately resumed
filling from the wing tanks after reducing the descent for a time. And that
was with four gallons remaining in each tank measured on the ground. I was
descending at 400 fpm at just below redline on the ASI.
My thought is to not close the valves in flight. I am curious about the
source of the advice.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "SkySteve" <Wilson@REinfo.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 5:04 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Header Tank Venting
>
> My header tank (located behind the seat) is vented back to both wing tanks
> via two vent lines (one to each wing tank). I was advised to install a
> shut off valve in each vent line and to open those vent lines when filling
> the fuel tanks, then shut the vent valves for flight.
>
> It was mentioned that in the past, there were several crashes due to fuel
> starvation when the wing tanks were full of fuel. Apparently air had
> mixed with the fuel in the vent lines and vapor lock stopped the fuel flow
> from the wing tanks to the header tank. The result was when the header
> tank ran out of fuel the engine stopped due to fuel starvation.
>
> Is this true? Should I install shut off valves in each of my two vent
> lines and close those valves for flight?
>
> --------
> Steve Wilson
> Huntsville, UT
> Kitfox Model 134 - 85DD
> 912A / 3 Blade Warp Drive
> Convertible Nosewheel & Tailwheel
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9099#209099
>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Header Tank Venting |
At 05:04 PM 10/16/2008, you wrote:
>It was mentioned that in the past, there were several crashes due to
>fuel starvation when the wing tanks were full of fuel. Apparently
>air had mixed with the fuel in the vent lines and vapor lock stopped
>the fuel flow from the wing tanks to the header tank. The result
>was when the header tank ran out of fuel the engine stopped due to
>fuel starvation.
>
>Is this true? Should I install shut off valves in each of my two
>vent lines and close those valves for flight?
Steve,
Thanks for asking this question. I have finally convinced
myself that this is possible. It's not vapor lock, but if your wing
tank fuel feed line were to rise above the wing tank fuel level
before travelling to the header tank, and the header was vented to
atmosphere, the wing tank would stop feeding. (There would be no way
to siphon from the wing tank because the header tank was vented to
atmosphere.) Therefore you'd have to block the vent to force fuel to
siphon from the wing tank. My system without the vent valve works
because my wing tank feed lines run down-hill to the header tank; no
siphon is necessary. (I could have a problem on an extremely long,
extremely steep descent, because my fuel lines run aft from the wing
tanks.) So I guess the answer becomes: either your wing tank fuel
lines run down-hill, or you install the valves.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
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