Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:05 AM - Re: Re: Note on Ethanol (Steven Didier)
2. 04:04 AM - test - disregard (fox5flyer)
3. 06:07 AM - Re: Re: Note on Ethanol (Noel Loveys)
4. 06:29 AM - Re: Header Tank Venting (SkySteve)
5. 07:52 AM - Re: Re: Header Tank Venting (Lowell Fitt)
6. 09:29 AM - Re: Re: Header Tank Venting (kerrjohna@comcast.net)
7. 10:03 AM - Re: Header Tank Venting (n85ae)
8. 10:56 AM - Re: Re: Header Tank Venting (Lynn Matteson)
9. 11:41 AM - Re: Fuel Vent Lines (A H)
10. 11:45 AM - Re: Header Tank Venting (Marco Menezes)
11. 12:10 PM - test - disregard (fox5flyer)
12. 12:46 PM - Re: Re: Header Tank Venting (Guy Buchanan)
13. 12:53 PM - Re: Header Tank Venting (Dee Young)
14. 03:22 PM - Re: Re: Header Tank Venting (Noel Loveys)
15. 03:54 PM - Re: Re: Header Tank Venting (Lynn Matteson)
16. 04:18 PM - Re: Re: Header Tank Venting (Noel Loveys)
17. 04:56 PM - Re: Re: Header Tank Venting (John W. Hart)
18. 05:33 PM - Re: Re: Header Tank Venting (paul wilson)
19. 05:33 PM - Re: Re: Header Tank Venting (paul wilson)
20. 08:32 PM - EA-81 parts (Rick)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Note on Ethanol |
one of our local flyers swears that Jacob's Oil in Grangeville still
sells ethanol free premium.
Steve
On Oct 16, 2008, at 6:10 PM, Rich L wrote:
>
> That note just came to me from the IAA. The October 18 is the date
> of the board meeting where this will be discussed. Some of the
> information was written up on the latest newsletter on the IAA web
> site. (www.flyidaho.org).
> Here are some of the local stations which sell non-contaminated
> premium fuel:
>
> Dykes Exon in Bonners Ferry has a Pacific Pride Pump in back.
> The Coop in Sandpoint.
>
> I saw a list of other stations mostly in southern Idaho .
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9111#209111
>
>
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | test - disregard |
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Note on Ethanol |
As to whether MTBE being dead is a good thing or not is something I haven't
considered. It certainly isn't as toxic as lead or as destructive as
Ethanol.
I use the word destructive in regard to ethanol because of the impact
ethanol production on commercial levels has on the environment and the
additional impact it has had on our (world) food supply. Increases in CO2
given off during the fermentation process make the fuel worse than anything
else available. Add to all that the concerns of ethanol in flight and
corrosion and one has to wonder who sold this bill of lies to legislators
and can they be hired by anyone?? I have a shoreline or rock I'd like to
sell at around $4.00 per pound. I'll cut a deal with anyone to sell bog at
$5.00 a gallon.
All that is interesting and to be honest thrashed to death.
I only wanted to comment on why pipeline owners may not be interested in
sending ethanol through their pipelines. Corrosion is a serious
consideration but far from the only one.
Pipelines transport many different types of fossil fuels... Gasoline,
Diesel, motor oil etc. So as not to leave their pipes full of someone
else's product and contamination of cargo they use salt water pumped into
the pipes between shipments. Unfortunately ethanol is more than happy to
form a true solution with this water. This means they would have to build
from the ground up a dedicated distribution network for ethanol. Meters
would have to be installed at each terminal to measure the amount of product
delivered to any particular terminal. Mixing the ethanol with the gas will
still have to be done locally. This may mean some places like Alaska will
just have to stop driving gas powered cars because delivering ethanol there
will be a nightmare followed by the nightmare of trying to start a car in
subzero temperatures on ethanol. The next few years will be a great time to
invest in manufacturing tanker trucks. BTW where is the nearest distillery
to Washington DC? Maybe if congressmen had to walk more they would think
about the laws they pass.
A short while ago a guy from Brazil said Brazil moves its ethanol around by
tanker ships with no problems... Anyone ever see a Brazilian flagged
tanker??? I live on the side of the North Atlantic and I have never seen
one. In fact I've never seen any ship with a Brazilian flag. This tells me
they are a scarce as hens' teeth and they don't go too far from home. Most
probably they are using Iberian flagged vessels. Nuff said about that.
No wonder North American shippers are not interested in carrying a load of
eth. Even our tramp steamers are much better than some foreign flags.
Please note the word "some", because there are a lot of seagoing nations who
know tricks to teach fish about the sea.
Noel Loveys
AME Intern, RPP
Kitfox III-AIvo IFA, Aerocet 1100 floats
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul A. Franz,
P.E.
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 1:54 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Note on Ethanol
<paul@eucleides.com>
On Thu, October 16, 2008 4:56 pm, Tom Jones wrote:
>
> For what it's worth. I have been using Union 76 premium 92 octane in
Ellensburg, WA.
> I have been testing for alcohol and as of 10-13 have not found any in 76's
premium. I
> use the EAA recommended water in a jar test. I was using Chevron premium
until the
> alcohol showed up about mid July this year.
I can verify that Chevron is using 10% Ethanol in Bellevue WA and possibly
all of
Western Washington. It even says so on the pumps. Chevron and Exxon-Mobil
are building
Bio-Diesel blending plants in Washington. The Exxon plant in Spokane will be
fully
operational in December.
One thing good is that MTBE is dead. Estimates say E90 costs more and gives
a uniform
8% reduction in fuel mileage. It has a lower flash point and higher vapor
pressure
than gasoline so this is genuine concern with operating altitude even if
you've solved
the problems with gaskets, seals and corrosion.
Pipeline operators are not blending ethanol because they claim the
corrosivity of
ethanol threatens the integrity of the pipelines. As a result, ethanol is
blended at
the pipeline delivery points, chiefly Harbor Island in Seattle so it is
likely that
all gasoline has the 10% blend in Western Washington.
--
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
PAF Consulting Engineers
Office 425.440.9505
Cell 425.241.1618
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Header Tank Venting |
Obviously there are differing thoughts on this issue. What I am getting so far
is that it MAY not be necessary to close the venting, but closing the venting
will not harm anything and MAY actually HELP in some instances. Would that be
a accurate summary?
--------
Steve Wilson
Huntsville, UT
Kitfox Model 1- 85DD
912A / 3 Blade Warp Drive
Convertible Nosewheel & Tailwheel
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9161#209161
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Header Tank Venting |
Steve, in a word, No.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "SkySteve" <Wilson@REinfo.org>
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 6:29 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Header Tank Venting
>
> Obviously there are differing thoughts on this issue. What I am getting
> so far is that it MAY not be necessary to close the venting, but closing
> the venting will not harm anything and MAY actually HELP in some
> instances. Would that be a accurate summary?
>
> --------
> Steve Wilson
> Huntsville, UT
> Kitfox Model 1- 85DD
> 912A / 3 Blade Warp Drive
> Convertible Nosewheel & Tailwheel
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9161#209161
>
>
>
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Header Tank Venting |
If as you suggest the header tank vent was OFF then in Lowell's example or other
similar scenario the automatic refilling of the header tank would be prevented
and air/fuel blockages of the two feed lines from the wing tanks WOULD likely
slow or prevent flow to the header tank and encourage fuel starvation with
adequate fuel remaining in the wings.
Add my name to the many with asymetrical fuel flow from the tanks but no evidence
of the header tank being deprived. I don't have a low fuel warning but there
are many out there to monitor the possiblity of starvation. Were there any
warnings that were triggered as a result of the asymetrical draw. What are the
specifics of the "many crashes due to fuel starvation"? Sounds like urban
myth to me.
John Kerr
Classic IV, 912ul, 780 hours.
Logan UT
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "SkySteve" <Wilson@REinfo.org>
>
> Obviously there are differing thoughts on this issue. What I am getting so far
> is that it MAY not be necessary to close the venting, but closing the venting
> will not harm anything and MAY actually HELP in some instances. Would that be
a
> accurate summary?
>
> --------
> Steve Wilson
> Huntsville, UT
> Kitfox Model 1- 85DD
> 912A / 3 Blade Warp Drive
> Convertible Nosewheel & Tailwheel
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9161#209161
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
<html><body>
<DIV>If as you suggest the header tank vent was OFF then in Lowell's example or
other similar scenario the automatic refilling of the header tank would be prevented
and air/fuel blockages of the two feed lines from the wing tanks WOULD
likely slow or prevent flow to the header tank and encourage fuel starvation
with adequate fuel remaining in the wings.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Add my name to the many with asymetrical fuel flow from the tanks but no evidence
of the header tank being deprived. I don't have a low fuel warning
but there are many out there to monitor the possiblity of starvation.
Were there any warnings that were triggered as a result of the asymetrical draw.
What are the specifics of the "many crashes due to fuel starvation"?
Sounds like urban myth to me.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>John Kerr</DIV>
<DIV>Classic IV, 912ul, 780 hours.</DIV>
<DIV>Logan UT</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
=====
UOTE><
/body>
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Header Tank Venting |
Header vents to both tanks, is usefull for equalizing pressure in the fuel
tanks. This is the culprit for the uneven fuel flow problems in kitfoxes.
All it take is a slight pressure differential, and you'll see a lot more fuel
flow from one tank than the other.
Jeff.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9194#209194
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Header Tank Venting |
I had uneven flow on ONE day....I was within 8 minutes of the
airport, and the low-fuel light came on, indicating 15 minutes of
fuel left. I noticed there was plenty of fuel in the left tank, so I
banked a bit to the right, sending that fuel into my header tank, and
I watched as the vent line filled up, the low-fuel light went off,
and I flew without incident into the airport to get 22 gallons into
my 26 (27 with header ) gallon (total) tanks. I may regret saying
this, but each pilot should know how his/her fuel system works, and
what can be done in a pinch to remedy a problem...either that or get
fuel more often.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster
Jabiru 2200, 572hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system
On Oct 17, 2008, at 1:03 PM, n85ae wrote:
>
> Header vents to both tanks, is usefull for equalizing pressure in
> the fuel
> tanks. This is the culprit for the uneven fuel flow problems in
> kitfoxes.
> All it take is a slight pressure differential, and you'll see a lot
> more fuel
> flow from one tank than the other.
>
> Jeff.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9194#209194
>
>
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Fuel Vent Lines |
Just as a word clarification=2C so that terms aren't used incorrectly. The
fuel system in a Kitfox is "gravity feed" and fuel pressure to the carb or
engine fuel pump is "head pressure" from a gravity fed fuel tank. Strictl
y gravity only. There is no "siphon action". Designers have to determine
that the fuel tank is high enough in normal flying/attitudes (nose high/nos
e low) and fuel line size adequate to provide a certain fuel pressure or he
ad pressure for the fuel consumption of the engine used. If your engine in
stallation requires additional pressure to the engine pump than head pressu
re can provide=2C an electric pump must be installed prior to the engine pu
mp or carb (ala low wing aircraft). Fuel line size and head pressure to th
e engine is all that insures that an adequate supply of fuel is maintained
to the metering device=2C unless you have a fuel pump located at each tank
outlet to supply increased fuel flow. Most small aircraft under 140 hp=2C
3/8" line is used=2C that will that will supply more enough fuel for engine
consumption. As engines get larger=2C fuel line size goes up=2C 1/2"=2C 5
/8"=2C etc. The only time fuel is "sucked" or "siphoned" from a tank is if
you have a pump located at the tank.
It is extremely important that the fuel lines and the vent lines be angled
down to the header tank or on a constant slope=2C problem areas are at the
wing pivot and the horizontal routing to the header tank. Especially in th
e vent line. Air and fuel must have an unimpeded path and a way to get out
and into the upper wing tank=2C if both lines to one tank have a low or hi
gh spot you could run into a fuel lock situation on that side. Installed
correctly and under normal flying and fuel conditions=2C the vent line has
fuel in it and should correspond to the level of fuel in the tank. In a lo
ng=2C steep=2C nose down descent with low fuel=2C your fuel pickup will be
higher than the fuel level in the tank=2C as the fuel runs to forward to th
e front of the tank. The tank is still vented=2C fuel to the header tank i
s supplied only by the remaining fuel in the fuel line from the pickup to t
he header tank. Leveling off routinely will then raise the fuel level abov
e the fuel pickup/screen and will flow back down into the header tank. The
air being displace by the fuel will go up the vent line and into the fuel
tank. If the vent were blocked then air would have to travel upstream agai
nst the fuel going down into the header tank. If it is on a constant slope
this should not cause a problem other than fuel will not fill the header t
ank as fast as it has to make room for air in the line going up. This is w
hy the vent line is important.
If you look at aerobatic biplanes with a center section upper wing mounted
fuel tank=2C you will see a forward fuel pickup. This is for nose down atti
tudes. Most Cessna's have a forward pick up location=2C we can't because o
f the folding wing design. The fuel line would have to run down the forwar
d doorpost frame. (Which it does in a Cessna)
There is nothing wrong with a single vent line to one tank or a vent line t
o each tank. Because we have a folding wing design we cannot have a interc
onnecting vent line (wing tank-to-wing tank) like a Cessna that they use to
help even the fuel burn from each wing. In a perfect world (no slip nor sk
id=2C wings level=2C no turbulence=2C etc) Kitfox dual vent lines are used
to keep fuel burn equal. The fuel vents on the "filler caps" provide a ver
y slight positive pressure in the tanks=2C but mainly to fill the void of u
sed fuel. Make sure the caps are on correct and the gaskets are sealing.
One of the reasons for the long periscope vent line on the cap is to get th
e vent into static atmospheric air. The low pressure on top of the wing wh
ere the fuel cap is can cause siphoning of fuel=2C which is why a gasket ch
eck is a good idea.
The reason that the vent line from the header tank needs to be a constant s
lope to the tank vent boss is to ensure that you don't create a "trap" for
air. A dual vent line system helps to ensure positive flow to the engine j
ust incase one vent line were to become blocked.
Depending on your engine installation it is possible run the fuel low enoug
h that there is not enough head pressure to supply the carb=2C even though
there may be fuel in the header tank. I suggest a standby electric fuel pu
mp (Faucet 4-6 gph) be mounted below the header tank outlet that can be tur
n on during takeoff/landing and low fuel situations. I installed one in my
fuel system. To insure positive pressure.
I would:
I would check the fuel caps first to make sure they are not blocked=2C poin
ting forward and the gasket seals.
Ensure that the fuel and vent lines to each tank are on a constant slope to
the tank.
Verify that the fuel level in the vent line corresponds to the level of fue
l in the tank.
Andy
_________________________________________________________________
You live life beyond your PC. So now Windows goes beyond your PC.
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Header Tank Venting |
Dee,
-
What kind of check valve did you use? I have the same set-up, originally wi
th an Andair check valve but it did not prevent fuel from flowing out along
with air. Eventually I installed a shut-off valve in the line which I open
during fueling and close before flight.
-
On the original question: If the header vents back into the tanks, I see no
purpose for a shut off valve in the vent line.
-
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1
--- On Thu, 10/16/08, Dee Young <henrysfork1@msn.com> wrote:
From: Dee Young <henrysfork1@msn.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Header Tank Venting
Steve on my model II I have one vent line that runs from the header tank. I
run it up and ported it out thru a butt rib using a check valve. It allows
air in but will not let fuel run out. It works very well and have no probl
ems. If you go thru the archives you will find a number of discussions on f
uel tanks, venting and porting etc.
-
Dee Young
Model II
N345DY
KFM 112
-
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: SkySteve
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 6:04 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Header Tank Venting
My header tank (located behind the seat) is vented back to both wing tanks
via two vent lines (one to each wing tank).- I was advised to install a s
hut off valve in each vent line and to open those vent lines when filling t
he fuel tanks, then shut the vent valves for flight.-
It was mentioned that in the past, there were several crashes due to fuel s
tarvation when the wing tanks were full of fuel.- Apparently air had mixe
d with the fuel in the vent lines and vapor lock stopped the fuel flow from
the wing tanks to the header tank.- The result was when the header tank
ran out of fuel the engine stopped due to fuel starvation.
Is this true?- Should I install shut off valves in each of my two vent li
nes and close those valves for flight?
--------
Steve Wilson
Huntsville, UT
Kitfox Model 134 - 85DD
912A / 3 Blade Warp Drive
Convertible Nosewheel & Tailwheel
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9099#209099
http://www.matron===================
===
bsp;-- via the Web title=http://forums.matronics.com/ href="http://
forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
bsp;------ generous bsp;-------------
------ title=http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="ht
tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c====
============
//mail.yahoo.com
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | test - disregard |
do not archive
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Header Tank Venting |
At 06:29 AM 10/17/2008, you wrote:
>Obviously there are differing thoughts on this issue. What I am
>getting so far is that it MAY not be necessary to close the venting,
>but closing the venting will not harm anything and MAY actually HELP
>in some instances. Would that be a accurate summary?
I think so, as long as you assure the header tank is
reasonably full. With the vents closed any vapor in the header tank
will have to / try to migrate up the fuel tank feed lines. I'm not
sure but that this buoyancy might be able to work against the fuel
tank head pressure and prevent its feeding. Again, I've never heard
of it, and I used 3/8" line from my wing fuel tanks to the header
tank to make sure vapor and fuel could exchange freely.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Header Tank Venting |
Marco I used a check valve that was designed for use in a vacuum system
on a Holley carb. The check valve is about the size of a nickel and
about as thick as two nickels together. I choose a check valve because I
didn't want fuel to spill out but do want the header tank to breath. You
ask the question about the shut offs, someone with a greater mind than
mine designed the tank. If the tank is shut off it will no breath as
designed or at least that's my view. I have no problems with fuel
slobbering out of the vent and have no problems with fuel flow. It works
for me.
Dee Young
Model II
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Marco Menezes<mailto:msm_9949@yahoo.com>
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com<mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 12:45 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Header Tank Venting
Dee,
What kind of check valve did you use? I have the same set-up,
originally with an Andair check valve but it did not prevent fuel from
flowing out along with air. Eventually I installed a shut-off valve in
the line which I open during fueling and close before flight.
On the original question: If the header vents back into the
tanks, I see no purpose for a shut off valve in the vent line.
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1
--- On Thu, 10/16/08, Dee Young <henrysfork1@msn.com> wrote:
From: Dee Young <henrysfork1@msn.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Header Tank Venting
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Date: Thursday, October 16, 2008, 9:15 PM
Steve on my model II I have one vent line that runs from the
header tank. I run it up and ported it out thru a butt rib using a check
valve. It allows air in but will not let fuel run out. It works very
well and have no problems. If you go thru the archives you will find a
number of discussions on fuel tanks, venting and porting etc.
Dee Young
Model II
N345DY
KFM 112
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: SkySteve<mailto:Wilson@REinfo.org>
To:
kitfox-list@matronics.com<mailto:kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 6:04 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Header Tank Venting
<Wilson@REinfo.org<mailto:Wilson@REinfo.org>>
My header tank (located behind the seat) is vented back to
both wing tanks via two vent lines (one to each wing tank). I was
advised to install a shut off valve in each vent line and to open those
vent lines when filling the fuel tanks, then shut the vent valves for
flight.
It was mentioned that in the past, there were several
crashes due to fuel starvation when the wing tanks were full of fuel.
Apparently air had mixed with the fuel in the vent lines and vapor lock
stopped the fuel flow from the wing tanks to the header tank. The
result was when the header tank ran out of fuel the engine stopped due
to fuel starvation.
Is this true? Should I install shut off valves in each of
my two vent lines and close those valves
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
================
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List<about:3D"http://www.matron
ics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
http://forums.matronics.com<about:3D"http://forums.matronics.com">
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<about:3D"http://www.matronics.com/c
ontribution">
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Header Tank Venting |
Lynn:
What you did was one of the things my flight instructor made me practice as
part of a forced approach. Even the certified spam cans have issues with
fuel delivery form the wing tanks on occasion.
My plane only has a vent to the right wing tank.. The left tank is only
half the size of the right and yes I do have unequal fuel flow. I also have
a clear section in the vent line so I can see when fuel in the header starts
to run out long before it does. When I install the 912 I was thinking about
relocating the header behind the seat. In that location I will no longer be
able to see the vent line.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Header Tank Venting
I had uneven flow on ONE day....I was within 8 minutes of the
airport, and the low-fuel light came on, indicating 15 minutes of
fuel left. I noticed there was plenty of fuel in the left tank, so I
banked a bit to the right, sending that fuel into my header tank, and
I watched as the vent line filled up, the low-fuel light went off,
and I flew without incident into the airport to get 22 gallons into
my 26 (27 with header ) gallon (total) tanks. I may regret saying
this, but each pilot should know how his/her fuel system works, and
what can be done in a pinch to remedy a problem...either that or get
fuel more often.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster
Jabiru 2200, 572hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system
On Oct 17, 2008, at 1:03 PM, n85ae wrote:
>
> Header vents to both tanks, is usefull for equalizing pressure in
> the fuel
> tanks. This is the culprit for the uneven fuel flow problems in
> kitfoxes.
> All it take is a slight pressure differential, and you'll see a lot
> more fuel
> flow from one tank than the other.
>
> Jeff.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9194#209194
>
>
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Header Tank Venting |
Noel-
I also have a clear vent line running up to my right tank, which is
equal in size to the left tank. However, I can see my vent line even
with the header tank behind the right side of the seat. My fuel line
and the vent line run parallel to the diagonal braces behind the
seat, and all I need to do is glance over my right shoulder
occasionally to check for fuel in both the clear glass Purolator
filter, and the clear vent line. I only *need* to do this when I know
that the fuel tanks are getting low, but I check it every so often
just out of habit. Pucker time comes when I allow myself to get low
on fuel and have to make a descent. Under these conditions...and I've
done this maybe 4-5 times (bad, Lynn, BAD)...like Guy suggested, just
leveling off for a moment will let some fuel fill the header, shut
off the light, and the pucker relaxes.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster
Jabiru 2200, 572hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system
On Oct 17, 2008, at 6:21 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
>
> Lynn:
>
> What you did was one of the things my flight instructor made me
> practice as
> part of a forced approach. Even the certified spam cans have
> issues with
> fuel delivery form the wing tanks on occasion.
>
> My plane only has a vent to the right wing tank.. The left tank is
> only
> half the size of the right and yes I do have unequal fuel flow. I
> also have
> a clear section in the vent line so I can see when fuel in the
> header starts
> to run out long before it does. When I install the 912 I was
> thinking about
> relocating the header behind the seat. In that location I will no
> longer be
> able to see the vent line.
>
> Noel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
> Matteson
> Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 3:26 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Header Tank Venting
>
>
> I had uneven flow on ONE day....I was within 8 minutes of the
> airport, and the low-fuel light came on, indicating 15 minutes of
> fuel left. I noticed there was plenty of fuel in the left tank, so I
> banked a bit to the right, sending that fuel into my header tank, and
> I watched as the vent line filled up, the low-fuel light went off,
> and I flew without incident into the airport to get 22 gallons into
> my 26 (27 with header ) gallon (total) tanks. I may regret saying
> this, but each pilot should know how his/her fuel system works, and
> what can be done in a pinch to remedy a problem...either that or get
> fuel more often.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster
> Jabiru 2200, 572hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
> system
>
>
> On Oct 17, 2008, at 1:03 PM, n85ae wrote:
>
>>
>> Header vents to both tanks, is usefull for equalizing pressure in
>> the fuel
>> tanks. This is the culprit for the uneven fuel flow problems in
>> kitfoxes.
>> All it take is a slight pressure differential, and you'll see a lot
>> more fuel
>> flow from one tank than the other.
>>
>> Jeff.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9194#209194
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 16
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Header Tank Venting |
I have yet to land a plane with less than an hour of fuel on board. When I
worked at the AMO ( Canadian equivalent of an FBO) in Gander there was a TC
poster in the Heli part of the hangar which said "Fuel is time"... Kinda
remembered that. Also the only time you have too much gas is when you're on
fire :-)
Most of my flights in the Kitfox I intentionally tried to get the weight up
to the 950 MTOW. It's a bit harder getting a heavy plane up on step when
flying floats.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 8:24 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Header Tank Venting
Noel-
I also have a clear vent line running up to my right tank, which is
equal in size to the left tank. However, I can see my vent line even
with the header tank behind the right side of the seat. My fuel line
and the vent line run parallel to the diagonal braces behind the
seat, and all I need to do is glance over my right shoulder
occasionally to check for fuel in both the clear glass Purolator
filter, and the clear vent line. I only *need* to do this when I know
that the fuel tanks are getting low, but I check it every so often
just out of habit. Pucker time comes when I allow myself to get low
on fuel and have to make a descent. Under these conditions...and I've
done this maybe 4-5 times (bad, Lynn, BAD)...like Guy suggested, just
leveling off for a moment will let some fuel fill the header, shut
off the light, and the pucker relaxes.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster
Jabiru 2200, 572hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system
On Oct 17, 2008, at 6:21 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
>
> Lynn:
>
> What you did was one of the things my flight instructor made me
> practice as
> part of a forced approach. Even the certified spam cans have
> issues with
> fuel delivery form the wing tanks on occasion.
>
> My plane only has a vent to the right wing tank.. The left tank is
> only
> half the size of the right and yes I do have unequal fuel flow. I
> also have
> a clear section in the vent line so I can see when fuel in the
> header starts
> to run out long before it does. When I install the 912 I was
> thinking about
> relocating the header behind the seat. In that location I will no
> longer be
> able to see the vent line.
>
> Noel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
> Matteson
> Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 3:26 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Header Tank Venting
>
>
> I had uneven flow on ONE day....I was within 8 minutes of the
> airport, and the low-fuel light came on, indicating 15 minutes of
> fuel left. I noticed there was plenty of fuel in the left tank, so I
> banked a bit to the right, sending that fuel into my header tank, and
> I watched as the vent line filled up, the low-fuel light went off,
> and I flew without incident into the airport to get 22 gallons into
> my 26 (27 with header ) gallon (total) tanks. I may regret saying
> this, but each pilot should know how his/her fuel system works, and
> what can be done in a pinch to remedy a problem...either that or get
> fuel more often.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster
> Jabiru 2200, 572hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
> system
>
>
> On Oct 17, 2008, at 1:03 PM, n85ae wrote:
>
>>
>> Header vents to both tanks, is usefull for equalizing pressure in
>> the fuel
>> tanks. This is the culprit for the uneven fuel flow problems in
>> kitfoxes.
>> All it take is a slight pressure differential, and you'll see a lot
>> more fuel
>> flow from one tank than the other.
>>
>> Jeff.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9194#209194
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 17
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Header Tank Venting |
I don't mind flying a half tank of gas...............as long as it's the top
half!
John Hart
KF IV, NSI Subaru
Wilburton, OK
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 6:18 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Header Tank Venting
I have yet to land a plane with less than an hour of fuel on board. When I
worked at the AMO ( Canadian equivalent of an FBO) in Gander there was a TC
poster in the Heli part of the hangar which said "Fuel is time"... Kinda
remembered that. Also the only time you have too much gas is when you're on
fire :-)
Most of my flights in the Kitfox I intentionally tried to get the weight up
to the 950 MTOW. It's a bit harder getting a heavy plane up on step when
flying floats.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 8:24 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Header Tank Venting
Noel-
I also have a clear vent line running up to my right tank, which is
equal in size to the left tank. However, I can see my vent line even
with the header tank behind the right side of the seat. My fuel line
and the vent line run parallel to the diagonal braces behind the
seat, and all I need to do is glance over my right shoulder
occasionally to check for fuel in both the clear glass Purolator
filter, and the clear vent line. I only *need* to do this when I know
that the fuel tanks are getting low, but I check it every so often
just out of habit. Pucker time comes when I allow myself to get low
on fuel and have to make a descent. Under these conditions...and I've
done this maybe 4-5 times (bad, Lynn, BAD)...like Guy suggested, just
leveling off for a moment will let some fuel fill the header, shut
off the light, and the pucker relaxes.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster
Jabiru 2200, 572hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system
On Oct 17, 2008, at 6:21 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
>
> Lynn:
>
> What you did was one of the things my flight instructor made me
> practice as
> part of a forced approach. Even the certified spam cans have
> issues with
> fuel delivery form the wing tanks on occasion.
>
> My plane only has a vent to the right wing tank.. The left tank is
> only
> half the size of the right and yes I do have unequal fuel flow. I
> also have
> a clear section in the vent line so I can see when fuel in the
> header starts
> to run out long before it does. When I install the 912 I was
> thinking about
> relocating the header behind the seat. In that location I will no
> longer be
> able to see the vent line.
>
> Noel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
> Matteson
> Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 3:26 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Header Tank Venting
>
>
> I had uneven flow on ONE day....I was within 8 minutes of the
> airport, and the low-fuel light came on, indicating 15 minutes of
> fuel left. I noticed there was plenty of fuel in the left tank, so I
> banked a bit to the right, sending that fuel into my header tank, and
> I watched as the vent line filled up, the low-fuel light went off,
> and I flew without incident into the airport to get 22 gallons into
> my 26 (27 with header ) gallon (total) tanks. I may regret saying
> this, but each pilot should know how his/her fuel system works, and
> what can be done in a pinch to remedy a problem...either that or get
> fuel more often.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster
> Jabiru 2200, 572hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
> system
>
>
> On Oct 17, 2008, at 1:03 PM, n85ae wrote:
>
>>
>> Header vents to both tanks, is usefull for equalizing pressure in
>> the fuel
>> tanks. This is the culprit for the uneven fuel flow problems in
>> kitfoxes.
>> All it take is a slight pressure differential, and you'll see a lot
>> more fuel
>> flow from one tank than the other.
>>
>> Jeff.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9194#209194
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 18
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Header Tank Venting |
Lots of examples Just do your homework
Agree. Asymmetrical fuel flow from the tanks has nothing to do with
starvation. Fixes for it are not necessary. Just follow the details
on the install and the issue will go away. Nice fat lines are also
good and no restrictions in any of the lines are also good. No filter
or other components in the header to tank lines helps that situation.
Paul
At 09:26 AM 10/17/2008, you wrote:
>If as you suggest the header tank vent was OFF then in Lowell's
>example or other similar scenario the automatic refilling of the
>header tank would be prevented and air/fuel blockages of the two
>feed lines from the wing tanks WOULD likely slow or prevent flow to
>the header tank and encourage fuel starvation with adequate fuel
>remaining in the wings.
>
>Add my name to the many with asymetrical fuel flow from the tanks
>but no evidence of the header tank being deprived. I don't have a
>low fuel warning but there are many out there to monitor the
>possiblity of starvation. Were there any warnings that were
>triggered as a result of the asymetrical draw. What are the
>specifics of the "many crashes due to fuel starvation"? Sounds like
>urban myth to me.
>
>John Kerr
>Classic IV, 912ul, 780 hours.
>Logan UT
>
>====== UOTE>< /body>
>
>
><http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
><http://www.matronics.com/contribution>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
Message 19
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Header Tank Venting |
Steve.
NO -NO -NO You do not understand.
You are getting advice from someone who has no understanding of the
physics of fluid flow. You must vent the header. Valves in the header
tank vents are just plain crazy..
Follow the instructions in the build manual. The factory guys are
real engineers and have thought thru many things you may not even
consider. And if you don't have the latest fuel system version go get
it. And if you have a flying system that is not the latest system
change it. As several have pointed out this in not the place to come
up with something that will kill you.
Remember screwed up fuel systems cause the most downed Kitfoxes of
any other kind of failure. Probably because the builder did not
understand the factory setup and changed it to his own design. Or
just did not follow the instructions.
Please Read Andys message below and try to understand it
Paul
======
Just as a word clarification, so that terms aren't used
incorrectly. The fuel system in a Kitfox is "gravity feed" and fuel
pressure to the carb or engine fuel pump is "head pressure" from a
gravity fed fuel tank. Strictly gravity only. There is no "siphon
action". Designers have to determine that the fuel tank is high
enough in normal flying/attitudes (nose high/nose low) and fuel line
size adequate to provide a certain fuel pressure or head pressure for
the fuel consumption of the engine used. If your engine installation
requires additional pressure to the engine pump than head pressure
can provide, an electric pump must be installed prior to the engine
pump or carb (ala low wing aircraft). Fuel line size and head
pressure to the engine is all that insures that an adequate supply of
fuel is maintained to the metering device, unless you have a fuel
pump located at each tank outlet to supply increased fuel flow. Most
small aircraft under 140 hp, 3/8" line is used, that will that will
supply more enough fuel for engine consumption. As engines get
larger, fuel line size goes up, 1/2", 5/8", etc. The only time fuel
is "sucked" or "siphoned" from a tank is if you have a pump located
at the tank.
It is extremely important that the fuel lines and the vent lines be
angled down to the header tank or on a constant slope, problem areas
are at the wing pivot and the horizontal routing to the header
tank. Especially in the vent line. Air and fuel must have an
unimpeded path and a way to get out and into the upper wing tank, if
both lines to one tank have a low or high spot you could run into a
fuel lock situation on that side. Installed correctly and under
normal flying and fuel conditions, the vent line has fuel in it and
should correspond to the level of fuel in the tank. In a long,
steep, nose down descent with low fuel, your fuel pickup will be
higher than the fuel level in the tank, as the fuel runs to forward
to the front of the tank. The tank is still vented, fuel to the
header tank is supplied only by the remaining fuel in the fuel line
from the pickup to the header tank. Leveling off routinely will then
raise the fuel level above the fuel pickup/screen and will flow back
down into the header tank. The air being displace by the fuel will
go up the vent line and into the fuel tank. If the vent were blocked
then air would have to travel upstream against the fuel going down
into the header tank. If it is on a constant slope this should not
cause a problem other than fuel will not fill the header tank as fast
as it has to make room for air in the line going up. This is why the
vent line is important.
If you look at aerobatic biplanes with a center section upper wing
mounted fuel tank, you will see a forward fuel pickup. This is for
nose down attitudes. Most Cessna's have a forward pick up location,
we can't because of the folding wing design. The fuel line would
have to run down the forward doorpost frame. (Which it does in a Cessna)
There is nothing wrong with a single vent line to one tank or a vent
line to each tank. Because we have a folding wing design we cannot
have a interconnecting vent line (wing tank-to-wing tank) like a
Cessna that they use to help even the fuel burn from each wing. In a
perfect world (no slip nor skid, wings level, no turbulence, etc)
Kitfox dual vent lines are used to keep fuel burn equal. The fuel
vents on the "filler caps" provide a very slight positive pressure in
the tanks, but mainly to fill the void of used fuel. Make sure the
caps are on correct and the gaskets are sealing. One of the reasons
for the long periscope vent line on the cap is to get the vent into
static atmospheric air. The low pressure on top of the wing where
the fuel cap is can cause siphoning of fuel, which is why a gasket
check is a good idea.
The reason that the vent line from the header tank needs to be a
constant slope to the tank vent boss is to ensure that you don't
create a "trap" for air. A dual vent line system helps to ensure
positive flow to the engine just incase one vent line were to become blocked.
Depending on your engine installation it is possible run the fuel low
enough that there is not enough head pressure to supply the carb,
even though there may be fuel in the header tank. I suggest a
standby electric fuel pump (Faucet 4-6 gph) be mounted below the
header tank outlet that can be turn on during takeoff/landing and low
fuel situations. I installed one in my fuel system. To insure
positive pressure.
I would:
I would check the fuel caps first to make sure they are not blocked,
pointing forward and the gasket seals.
Ensure that the fuel and vent lines to each tank are on a constant
slope to the tank.
Verify that the fuel level in the vent line corresponds to the level
of fuel in the tank.
Andy
============
At 06:29 AM 10/17/2008, you wrote:
>
>Obviously there are differing thoughts on this issue. What I am
>getting so far is that it MAY not be necessary to close the venting,
>but closing the venting will not harm anything and MAY actually HELP
>in some instances. Would that be a accurate summary?
>
>--------
>Steve Wilson
>Huntsville, UT
>Kitfox Model 1- 85DD
>912A / 3 Blade Warp Drive
>Convertible Nosewheel & Tailwheel
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9161#209161
>
>
Message 20
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Just listed on ebay one steel and one aluminum EA-81 oil pan. I was
going to add the link but I don't know if that violates the policy.
Rick
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|