---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 10/28/08: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:36 AM - Re: Corrosion Protection for Kitfox... Any ideas ???? (Lynn Matteson) 2. 05:43 AM - Re: exhaust in cabin (Tom Jones) 3. 09:53 AM - cabin exhaust (charles cook) 4. 09:55 AM - Re: exhaust in cabin (LarryM) 5. 10:00 AM - cabin exhaust/ extension to exhaust pipe? (charles cook) 6. 11:10 AM - Re: cabin exhaust/ extension to exhaust pipe? (Bob Brennan) 7. 11:43 AM - Re: exhaust in cabin (nick4853) 8. 11:44 AM - FW: cabin exhaust/ extension to exhaust pipe? (Bob Brennan) 9. 02:42 PM - Re: Re: exhaust in cabin (Noel Loveys) 10. 02:46 PM - Re: Re: exhaust in cabin (Lynn Matteson) 11. 03:16 PM - Re: Re: exhaust in cabin (Bob Brennan) 12. 03:20 PM - Re: Re: exhaust in cabin (Lynn Matteson) 13. 03:51 PM - Re: Re: exhaust in cabin (Lynn Matteson) 14. 04:42 PM - Re: cabin exhaust (Guy Buchanan) 15. 06:48 PM - Re: Re: exhaust in cabin (gary.algate@sandvik.com) 16. 10:31 PM - Vertical stabilizer rib question (jlfernan) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:36:51 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Corrosion Protection for Kitfox... Any ideas ???? When I first got started building, I bought one, and every now and then I just look through it to learn something new. I couldn't have successfully built my skis without it, for instance. And for running wires, wires in bundles, wires near liquid lines....it just goes on and on. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster Jabiru 2200, 579.1hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again (17 hrs) after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system do not archive On Oct 27, 2008, at 4:18 PM, Noel Loveys wrote: > > I have a printed copy and one on my PDA and of course one here... > they all > get well used. Some guys just won't buy one until they see what's > in it. > It is the basis for all aircraft maintenance and it goes into some > depth as > to why, not just do it this way. > > Noel > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn > Matteson > Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2008 11:58 AM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Corrosion Protection for Kitfox... Any > ideas ???? > > > Download it hell, buy the book! It's a good "bible" to have on hand > when you want to know how to build your plane. : ) > > Lynn Matteson > Kitfox IV Speedster > Jabiru 2200, 579.1hrs > Sensenich 62x46 > flying again (17 hrs) after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire > ignition system > do not archive > > > On Oct 26, 2008, at 10:09 AM, Noel Loveys wrote: > >> There is a good section in AC43 on corrosion and anti corrosion >> methods. Download a copy and have a read. >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:43:10 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: exhaust in cabin From: "Tom Jones" [quote="cookflys(at)yahoo.com"]Finished building and statred flying this summer a mod ll. With the weather turning cooler I flew with the doors closed a couple of days ago and I am getting an exhaust smell. Could this be comming from the bungee access area? Charles Cook Mod ll 582 Atl > [b] On my first flight I had no sealing around the buggees and had exhaust smell in the cabin. I stuffed foam rubber in the openging and that stopped the smell. Carbon monoxide is oder less so I have a CO detector too. -------- Tom Jones Classic IV 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp Ellensburg, WA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210757#210757 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:53:32 AM PST US From: charles cook Subject: Kitfox-List: cabin exhaust Are you 582 drivers using the stock exhaust? I have read where some put a e xtension on. What did you use to deal around bungees? Charles Cook N363KF -=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:55:30 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: exhaust in cabin From: "LarryM" Tom, I have the same problem. I sealed up my old bungee opening, as I have a grove gear, and it didn't help. I then extended the exhaust pipe. You can go as long as you want - post muffler. That reduced it, but this is now about the 4 or 5 th winter I'm fighting this. We had been opening the door on a regular basis to get fresh air. We are not very well sealed either Cabin air wise. I am going to try 2 things, 1st - I'm going to baffle the part of the gear that goes under the fuselage - like a deflector. If that doesn't work, I'll extend the exhaust into a thin wall tube extending to at least the end of the cockpit - sort of like the Canadian Tiger Moths. I find the whole deal puzzling, as are cabin is still rather breezy. larry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210804#210804 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:00:12 AM PST US From: charles cook Subject: Kitfox-List: cabin exhaust/ extension to exhaust pipe? I read in the archives some 582 drivers added a small extension to the exha ust pipe. Any comments? How did you seal around bungees? Charles Cook N363KF Mod ll- 582=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:10:23 AM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: cabin exhaust/ extension to exhaust pipe? My 582 model 2 appears to have an exhaust extension, there is an obvious weld near the cowling. The pipe looks like and auto exhaust with a J bend at the bottom, and it extends a good 10" down, back, and away from the cowling; you can just see it in the attached picture. I have never had any exhaust smell in the cabin and have a CO2 monitor that I change as prescribed, never a hint of discoloration. In fact the only problem I have is discoloration of the lower gear strut fairings from the exhaust, but that wipes off easily enough. The bungee hole is big enough to slip a hand through and in fact I recently added window vents to add more ventilation, the scoop kind that can be closed. The configuration works very well, more details or better pix if anyone wants. Bob Brennan - N717GB 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of charles cook Sent: 28 October 2008 12:59 pm Subject: Kitfox-List: cabin exhaust/ extension to exhaust pipe? I read in the archives some 582 drivers added a small extension to the exhaust pipe. Any comments? How did you seal around bungees? Charles Cook N363KF Mod ll 582 D======================== ========= D======================== ========= D======================== ========= D======================== ========= ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:43:08 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: exhaust in cabin From: "nick4853" I had the same problem in my IV with a 912 ul. I first extended the tail piece. While this was a little better it didn't solve the problem in fact it created another problem. After a few hours the muffler developed a crack from the added unsupported weight. I cut the stock exhaust pipe parrellel with the fuselage and since then I have no CO issues. Nick W. P.s. My bungee holes are not sealed. -------- kitfox !V-1200 Rotax 912ul Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210816#210816 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:44:18 AM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: FW: Kitfox-List: cabin exhaust/ extension to exhaust pipe? My 582 model 2 appears to have an exhaust extension, there is an obvious weld near the cowling. The pipe looks like and auto exhaust with a J bend at the bottom, and it extends a good 10" down, back, and away from the cowling; you can just see it in the attached picture. I have never had any exhaust smell in the cabin and have a CO2 monitor that I change as prescribed, never a hint of discoloration. In fact the only problem I have is discoloration of the lower gear strut fairings from the exhaust, but that wipes off easily enough. The bungee hole is big enough to slip a hand through and in fact I recently added window vents to add more ventilation, the scoop kind that can be closed. The configuration works very well, more details or better pix if anyone wants. Bob Brennan - N717GB 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of charles cook Sent: 28 October 2008 12:59 pm Subject: Kitfox-List: cabin exhaust/ extension to exhaust pipe? I read in the archives some 582 drivers added a small extension to the exhaust pipe. Any comments? How did you seal around bungees? Charles Cook N363KF Mod ll 582 D======================== ========= D======================== ========= D======================== ========= D======================== ========= ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:42:45 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: exhaust in cabin Have a look at a Piper Aztec. Yes I know it's a bit like comparing chalk and cheese but the exhausts they use on the Aztec are called extruders. Basically it is an open tube about three times the diameter of the exhaust pipe. That tube is lined up with the slipstream and the exhaust pipe projects a few inches into the tube. The idea is the exhaust, CO and noise is enveloped in a layer of cold air without causing any back pressure. They say the Aztec is one of the quietest piston planes around the extruders may be the reason. The DHC beaver also uses an extruder it makes a pretty good noise but it is a radial engine so it's supposed to let you know its working! Noel Loveys AME Intern, RPP Kitfox III-A, Aerocet 1100 floats -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of LarryM Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 2:25 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: exhaust in cabin Tom, I have the same problem. I sealed up my old bungee opening, as I have a grove gear, and it didn't help. I then extended the exhaust pipe. You can go as long as you want - post muffler. That reduced it, but this is now about the 4 or 5 th winter I'm fighting this. We had been opening the door on a regular basis to get fresh air. We are not very well sealed either Cabin air wise. I am going to try 2 things, 1st - I'm going to baffle the part of the gear that goes under the fuselage - like a deflector. If that doesn't work, I'll extend the exhaust into a thin wall tube extending to at least the end of the cockpit - sort of like the Canadian Tiger Moths. I find the whole deal puzzling, as are cabin is still rather breezy. larry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210804#210804 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:46:39 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: exhaust in cabin I always love the topic of "unsupported tailpipes" because it gives me a chance to display what did, and imagine what could have, happen (ed) if you leave your pipes unsupported, especially if you extend them to any degree. I was dumb enough to do both, and got lucky when it didn't progress any further than what is pictured. You can see that the (then) open exhaust licked at the firesleeve-covered fuel line and the motormount, and got behind the flange of the battery box...the black item at the left of the picture. Three weeks later, the battery gave out, and I investigated and found the battery had melted from the heat. Here's a shameless plug for Odyssey batteries...took a lickin' and kept on tickin' The last picture is of a stainless steel heat deflector that I built, just in case the problem should ever occur again, and it also shows how I supported the tail pipes. This is a Jabiru installation, but a similar deflector/support method could be used on other engines. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster Jabiru 2200, 579.1hrs + Sensenich 62x46 flying again (17 hrs) after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system On Oct 28, 2008, at 2:33 PM, nick4853 wrote: > > I had the same problem in my IV with a 912 ul. I first extended > the tail piece. While this was a little better it didn't solve the > problem in fact it created another problem. After a few hours the > muffler developed a crack from the added unsupported weight. I cut > the stock exhaust pipe parrellel with the fuselage and since then I > have no CO issues. > Nick W. > P.s. My bungee holes are not sealed. > > -------- > kitfox !V-1200 > Rotax 912ul > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210816#210816 > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:16:07 PM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: exhaust in cabin Unsupported long tailpipes can indeed be a problem. Mine has extra springs, safety wired just in case, and it is *always* part of my pre-flight to grab my extra-long tailpipe and give it a good shake. ;-) Bob Brennan - N717GB 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson Sent: 28 October 2008 5:44 pm Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: exhaust in cabin I always love the topic of "unsupported tailpipes" because it gives me a chance to display what did, and imagine what could have, happen (ed) if you leave your pipes unsupported, especially if you extend them to any degree. I was dumb enough to do both, and got lucky when it didn't progress any further than what is pictured. You can see that the (then) open exhaust licked at the firesleeve-covered fuel line and the motormount, and got behind the flange of the battery box...the black item at the left of the picture. Three weeks later, the battery gave out, and I investigated and found the battery had melted from the heat. Here's a shameless plug for Odyssey batteries...took a lickin' and kept on tickin' The last picture is of a stainless steel heat deflector that I built, just in case the problem should ever occur again, and it also shows how I supported the tail pipes. This is a Jabiru installation, but a similar deflector/support method could be used on other engines. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster Jabiru 2200, 579.1hrs + Sensenich 62x46 flying again (17 hrs) after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:20:14 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: exhaust in cabin My flight instructor has similar devices on his Widgeon, and he calls them "augmenters." Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster Jabiru 2200, 579.1hrs + Sensenich 62x46 flying again (17 hrs) after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system On Oct 28, 2008, at 5:42 PM, Noel Loveys wrote: > > Have a look at a Piper Aztec. Yes I know it's a bit like comparing > chalk > and cheese but the exhausts they use on the Aztec are called > extruders. > Basically it is an open tube about three times the diameter of the > exhaust > pipe. That tube is lined up with the slipstream and the exhaust pipe > projects a few inches into the tube. The idea is the exhaust, CO > and noise > is enveloped in a layer of cold air without causing any back > pressure. They > say the Aztec is one of the quietest piston planes around the > extruders may > be the reason. > > The DHC beaver also uses an extruder it makes a pretty good noise > but it is > a radial engine so it's supposed to let you know its working! > > > Noel Loveys > AME Intern, RPP > Kitfox III-A, > Aerocet 1100 floats > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of LarryM > Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 2:25 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: exhaust in cabin > > > Tom, > > I have the same problem. I sealed up my old bungee opening, as I > have a > grove gear, and it didn't help. I then extended the exhaust pipe. > You can > go as long as you want - post muffler. That reduced it, but this > is now > about the 4 or 5 th winter I'm fighting this. We had been opening > the door > on a regular basis to get fresh air. We are not very well sealed > either > Cabin air wise. I am going to try 2 things, 1st - I'm going to > baffle the > part of the gear that goes under the fuselage - like a deflector. > If that > doesn't work, I'll extend the exhaust into a thin wall tube > extending to at > least the end of the cockpit - sort of like the Canadian Tiger Moths. > I find the whole deal puzzling, as are cabin is still rather breezy. > > larry > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210804#210804 > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:51:28 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: exhaust in cabin Sounds like a good plan, Bob. Just for the record, I saw an even better method of supporting a tailpipe when I was at Oshkosh this past summer. This idea came from an award-winning (I believe) Hatz biplane. There are two of these hangers on each pipe...you can just barely see the mounting bracket for the second one. His is way better than the "rubber strap" hangar like I used on mine, and someday I'll change them out for this type of hanger....completely fireproof. It's just a length of SS cable, a nicopress sleeve, a hose clamp, and a short length of SS tubing...simplicity itself! I just got to thinking that you could even leave off the SS tubing, and use another nicopress sleeve for the two loops of SS cable to run through, and clamp that to the pipe. That would bring the two hangers a bit closer together, but it might work in some circumstances. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster Jabiru 2200, 579.1hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again (17 hrs) after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system On Oct 28, 2008, at 6:14 PM, Bob Brennan wrote: > > > Unsupported long tailpipes can indeed be a problem. Mine has extra > springs, > safety wired just in case, and it is *always* part of my pre-flight > to grab > my extra-long tailpipe and give it a good shake. ;-) > > Bob Brennan - N717GB > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:42:37 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: cabin exhaust At 09:52 AM 10/28/2008, you wrote: >Are you 582 drivers using the stock exhaust? Stock as in Skystar stock? I added the 1 1/2" lost in the elbow trying to get some more horsepower, to no effect. Otherwise it's stock. I also noticed exhaust ingestion on climb and for a while ran an extension on the tip. It didn't change the horsepower and did improve the cabin smog. My exhaust, however, always leaks at the elbow joints. When Skystar butchered the elbow to get the exhaust to fit they warped both ball joints. I've worked them with files, paper, and lapping compound as much as I'm willing, but they still leak, especially after a cleaning, before the carbon build-up closes the joint. I have to, therefore, make sure my firewall is absolutely air-tight, so all that exhaust goes out the cowl exit. Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:48:53 PM PST US Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: exhaust in cabin From: gary.algate@sandvik.com Gents be careful when modifying the 582 exhaust (especially with extractor type extensions) as they are a timed exhaust system which relies on pressure pulses to assist in charging the cylinders with fresh fuel/air mix. If you reduce the pressure on the outlet I'm sure that will have an effect on performance. This is not a problem with 4 stroke engines. Gary Gary Algate SMC, Exploration Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. "Noel Loveys" Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com 29/10/2008 08:23 AM Please respond to kitfox-list@matronics.com To cc Subject RE: Kitfox-List: Re: exhaust in cabin Have a look at a Piper Aztec. Yes I know it's a bit like comparing chalk and cheese but the exhausts they use on the Aztec are called extruders. Basically it is an open tube about three times the diameter of the exhaust pipe. That tube is lined up with the slipstream and the exhaust pipe projects a few inches into the tube. The idea is the exhaust, CO and noise is enveloped in a layer of cold air without causing any back pressure. They say the Aztec is one of the quietest piston planes around the extruders may be the reason. The DHC beaver also uses an extruder it makes a pretty good noise but it is a radial engine so it's supposed to let you know its working! Noel Loveys AME Intern, RPP Kitfox III-A, Aerocet 1100 floats -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of LarryM Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 2:25 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: exhaust in cabin Tom, I have the same problem. I sealed up my old bungee opening, as I have a grove gear, and it didn't help. I then extended the exhaust pipe. You can go as long as you want - post muffler. That reduced it, but this is now about the 4 or 5 th winter I'm fighting this. We had been opening the door on a regular basis to get fresh air. We are not very well sealed either Cabin air wise. I am going to try 2 things, 1st - I'm going to baffle the part of the gear that goes under the fuselage - like a deflector. If that doesn't work, I'll extend the exhaust into a thin wall tube extending to at least the end of the cockpit - sort of like the Canadian Tiger Moths. I find the whole deal puzzling, as are cabin is still rather breezy. larry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210804#210804 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:31:24 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Vertical stabilizer rib question From: "jlfernan" While fitting the ribs to the VS, the bottom two don't match the drawings in the manual. The second from the bottom is short, although looking ahead in the book, I don't really see what it does except support the fiberglass trailing edge. The bottom one also seemed short when it started fitting it. The drawings show it running even with the side bottom tubes of the fuse, but mine as you can see, is narrow near the front. Also, should the rear half fit around the small tube sticking up? Anyone have a photo of what theirs looks like? Thanks. (http://imageshack.us) -------- Jorge Fernandez Supersport Fuselage/Forward Controls http://websites.expercraft.com/jlfernan/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210914#210914 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.