---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 10/29/08: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:06 AM - Re: Re: exhaust in cabin (Noel Loveys) 2. 08:01 AM - Re: Re: exhaust in cabin (patrick reilly) 3. 09:10 AM - Re: Re: exhaust in cabin (Guy Buchanan) 4. 02:57 PM - Re: Re: exhaust in cabin (patrick reilly) 5. 05:39 PM - Re: Re: exhaust in cabin (Malcolm Brubaker) 6. 06:27 PM - Emailing: Kitfox Wind Deflector 003, Kitfox Wind Deflector 014 (david yeamans) 7. 07:04 PM - Re: exhaust leak, welding repair (Paul A. Franz, P.E.) 8. 07:13 PM - Kudos to Lightspeed (jeff puls) 9. 08:38 PM - Re: Kudos to Lightspeed (Allan Aaron) 10. 09:54 PM - cabin heater (charles cook) 11. 10:16 PM - Re: cabin heater (Paul A. Franz, P.E.) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:06:19 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: exhaust in cabin Regardless what they are called (I may have been wrong...again ) it is my experience they work well without increasing back pressure. They are light, simple to construct and will take care of the CO entering the cabin I'm not sure if they will also help reduce staining on the bottom of the plane. The Widgeon is a beautiful plane especially for this neck of the woods. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 7:50 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: exhaust in cabin My flight instructor has similar devices on his Widgeon, and he calls them "augmenters." Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster Jabiru 2200, 579.1hrs + Sensenich 62x46 flying again (17 hrs) after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system On Oct 28, 2008, at 5:42 PM, Noel Loveys wrote: > > Have a look at a Piper Aztec. Yes I know it's a bit like comparing > chalk > and cheese but the exhausts they use on the Aztec are called > extruders. > Basically it is an open tube about three times the diameter of the > exhaust > pipe. That tube is lined up with the slipstream and the exhaust pipe > projects a few inches into the tube. The idea is the exhaust, CO > and noise > is enveloped in a layer of cold air without causing any back > pressure. They > say the Aztec is one of the quietest piston planes around the > extruders may > be the reason. > > The DHC beaver also uses an extruder it makes a pretty good noise > but it is > a radial engine so it's supposed to let you know its working! > > > Noel Loveys > AME Intern, RPP > Kitfox III-A, > Aerocet 1100 floats > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of LarryM > Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 2:25 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: exhaust in cabin > > > Tom, > > I have the same problem. I sealed up my old bungee opening, as I > have a > grove gear, and it didn't help. I then extended the exhaust pipe. > You can > go as long as you want - post muffler. That reduced it, but this > is now > about the 4 or 5 th winter I'm fighting this. We had been opening > the door > on a regular basis to get fresh air. We are not very well sealed > either > Cabin air wise. I am going to try 2 things, 1st - I'm going to > baffle the > part of the gear that goes under the fuselage - like a deflector. > If that > doesn't work, I'll extend the exhaust into a thin wall tube > extending to at > least the end of the cockpit - sort of like the Canadian Tiger Moths. > I find the whole deal puzzling, as are cabin is still rather breezy. > > larry > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210804#210804 > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:01:40 AM PST US From: patrick reilly Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: exhaust in cabin Would the tube=2C as described=2C have extractor properties. Seems there wo uldn't be any extractor properties as long as the large extension tube was the same diameter for it's entire length=2C thus not creating a venturi eff ect. Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford=2C IL From: gary.algate@sandvik.comDate: Wed=2C 29 Oct 2008 11:18:02 +0930Gents b e careful when modifying the 582 exhaust (especially with extractor type ex tensions) as they are a timed exhaust system which relies on pressure pulse s to assist in charging the cylinders with fresh fuel/air mix. If you reduc e the pressure on the outlet I'm sure that will have an effect on performan ce. This is not a problem with 4 stroke engines. GaryGary AlgateSMC=2C Expl orationOffice Phone: +61 8 8276 7655This e-mail is confidential and it is i ntended only for the addressees. Any review=2C dissemination=2C distributio n=2C or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the inten ded recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error=2C k indly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message f rom your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omi ssions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e -mail transmission. "Noel Loveys" Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com 29/10/2008 08:23 AM Please respond tokitfox-list@matronics.com To cc Subject RE: Kitfox-List: Re: exhaust in cabin a look at a Piper Aztec. Yes I know it's a bit like comparing chalkand che ese but the exhausts they use on the Aztec are called extruders.Basically i t is an open tube about three times the diameter of the exhaustpipe. That tube is lined up with the slipstream and the exhaust pipeprojects a few inc hes into the tube. The idea is the exhaust=2C CO and noiseis enveloped in a layer of cold air without causing any back pressure. Theysay the Aztec i s one of the quietest piston planes around the extruders maybe the reason. The DHC beaver also uses an extruder it makes a pretty good noise but it is a radial engine so it's supposed to let you know its working!Noel LoveysAME Intern=2C RPPKitfox III-A=2C Aerocet 1100 floats-----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-serve r@matronics.com] On Behalf Of LarryMSent: Tuesday=2C October 28=2C 2008 2:2 5 PMTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: Kitfox-List: Re: exhaust in cabin ave the same problem. I sealed up my old bungee opening=2C as I have agrov e gear=2C and it didn't help. I then extended the exhaust pipe. You cango as long as you want - post muffler. That reduced it=2C but this is nowab out the 4 or 5 th winter I'm fighting this. We had been opening the dooron a regular basis to get fresh air. We are not very well sealed eitherCabin air wise. I am going to try 2 things=2C 1st - I'm going to baffle thepart of the gear that goes under the fuselage - like a deflector. If thatdoesn 't work=2C I'll extend the exhaust into a thin wall tube extending to atlea st the end of the cockpit - sort of like the Canadian Tiger Moths. I find t he whole deal puzzling=2C as are cabin is still rather breezy.larryRead thi s topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210804#21 0804-- -Matt Dralle=2C List Admin. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:10:16 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: exhaust in cabin At 07:59 AM 10/29/2008, you wrote: >Would the tube, as described, have extractor properties. Seems there >wouldn't be any extractor properties as long as the large extension >tube was the same diameter for it's entire length, thus not creating >a venturi effect. The tubes I've seen on large aircraft serve two purposes: 1) to decrease noise; and 2) to entrain engine cooling air in the cowl and encourage it's exhaust, thus increasing the delta-p across the cylinders and thereby increasing cooling, or reducing inlet size requirements and thereby reducing drag. (See Speed With Economy by Kent Paser.) Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:57:07 PM PST US From: patrick reilly Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: exhaust in cabin After thinking about it=2C the large pipe opening is obstructed be the smal ler exhaust pipe so the exhaust end of the large pipe would be significantl y bigger than the opening. Would this create a venturi effect=2C act as an extractor and reduce back pressure enough to detrimentally affect cylinder loading? Anybody try it yet with the 582=2C because the concept sounds good to me to reduce noise and possible exhaust gas entry to cabin. Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford=2C IL nn@nethere.comSubject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: exhaust in cabinAt 07:59 AM 10/ 29/2008=2C you wrote: Would the tube=2C as described=2C have extractor properties. Seems there wo uldn't be any extractor properties as long as the large extension tube was the same diameter for it's entire length=2C thus not creating a venturi eff ect. The tubes I've seen on large aircraft serve two purposes: 1) to decrease noise=3B and 2) to entrain engine cooling air in the cowl and enc ourage it's exhaust=2C thus increasing the delta-p across the cylinders and thereby increasing cooling=2C or reducing inlet size requirements and ther eby reducing drag. (See Speed With Economy by Kent Paser.) Guy BuchananSan Diego=2C CAK-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done=2C thanks m ostly to Bob Ducar. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:39:46 PM PST US From: Malcolm Brubaker Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: exhaust in cabin my exaust leeks at the joint it was cut to fit the cowling (582)- I put - little trim piece under the cowling to help draw the- fumes out by lo w pressure vacuum- is works very well. -- is there anyone there that can re cut and weld a new elbow for- me?? --- On Wed, 10/29/08, patrick reilly wrote: From: patrick reilly Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: exhaust in cabin #yiv1487376370 .hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #yiv1487376370 { FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma;} After thinking about it, the large pipe opening is obstructed be the smalle r exhaust pipe so the exhaust end of the large pipe would be significantly bigger than the opening.-Would this create-a venturi effect, act as an extractor and reduce back pressure enough to detrimentally affect cylinder loading? Anybody try it yet with the 582, because the concept sounds good t o me to reduce noise and possible-exhaust gas entry to cabin. - Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford, IL- From: bnn@nethere.com Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: exhaust in cabin At 07:59 AM 10/29/2008, you wrote: Would the tube, as described, have extractor properties. Seems there wouldn 't be any extractor properties as long as the large extension tube was the same diameter for it's entire length, thus not creating a venturi effect. --------The tubes I've seen on large aircraft serve two pur poses: 1) to decrease noise; and 2) to entrain engine cooling air in the co wl and encourage it's exhaust, thus increasing the delta-p across the cylin ders and thereby increasing cooling, or reducing inlet size requirements an d thereby reducing drag. (See Speed With Economy by Kent Paser.) Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List ttp://forums.matronics.com =_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:27:03 PM PST US From: "david yeamans" Subject: Kitfox-List: Emailing: Kitfox Wind Deflector 003, Kitfox Wind Deflector 014 HERE IS A WIND DEFLECTOR I MADE UP AND INSTALLED IN FRONT OF MY BUNGEE CORDS THAT STOPPED THE WIND FROM COMING UP INTO THE COCKPIT COMPLETELY AND KEPT THE EXHAUST FUMES OUT ALSO. MAKE SURE THE FIREWALL IS SEALED AND AND THE SIDE PANELS INSIDE ARE SEALED ALSO. IT WORKED GREAT. DAVID YEAMANS Kitfox 4 1200 Rotax 912 UL ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:04:52 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: RE: exhaust leak, welding repair From: "Paul A. Franz, P.E." On Wed, October 29, 2008 4:38 pm, Malcolm Brubaker wrote: > my exaust leeks at the joint it was cut to fit the cowling (582) I put little trim > piece under the cowling to help draw the fumes out by low pressure vacuum is works > very well. is there anyone there that can re cut and weld a new elbow for me?? If you lived around here, it could be done for you probably for free. There is a welder that works at Dan Fast Muffler and Brake repair here that has done some excellent welding for me in both aluminum and stainless and he did the jobs so quickly he declined to charge me. I had a cracked cast aluminum gear case cover that I was certain would fail by cracking or warping but he welded it and did it by putting it concave side down in about a half inch of water and welded the split in the middle with a beautiful weld and it did not warp. He has also welded some thinwall 4130 tubing for me using mig and I was really impressed with the quality of those tiny and perfect welds. I've had him weld some SS and I was impressed that he even knew the correct gas mix for the job besides being able to identify the alloy and selecting the correct welding wire. You might find a muffler shop near you that has a similarly skilled welder with the proper equipment to do this job with quality too. -- Paul A. Franz, P.E. PAF Consulting Engineers Office 425.440.9505 Cell 425.241.1618 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:13:07 PM PST US From: "jeff puls" Subject: Kitfox-List: Kudos to Lightspeed Went to the airport to fly my Fox. I have 2 Lightspeed 20XL noise canceling headsets. They are about five years old. I went to put one of my headsets on and it came apart in my hand (Adjustment band broke). I contacted the factory and sent them my headset. It cost me $17.00 to ship it with $400 insurance. This happened on Thursday. Got my headset back in four days like brand new. They repaired it and did a diagnostic. They shipped it UPS Orange. What service!!! Out $17.00, what a deal. Lightspeed in my opinion is a pretty good company, Jeff KTZR Classic IV ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:38:02 PM PST US Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Kudos to Lightspeed From: "Allan Aaron" Unfortunately, I didn't have quite as good an experience with lightspeed. I have two of them which I bought in about 2003/4. I only fly about 40 hours per year and my plane (and headsets) are always hangared. My headsets are both deteriorating badly in terms of the vinyl or plastic backing applied to the foam head protection and ear cups. When I asked them about this via email and again at Oshkosh this year they said it was because of sweat from my head (I am folliclely challenged). They were happy to sell me new foam parts for about $40+ per headset. Given relatively low usage, good storage conditions and a not totally unique lack of hair, I believe this is a design fault. Noting lightspeed's good general reputation, I was disappointed at their response. I cant be bothered spending the money to repair them right now and have peeled away as much of the loose coating as I can. Next time I'll buy an "in the ear" set instead. Tried them at Osh and was really impressed. Allan ________________________________ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jeff puls Sent: Thursday, 30 October 2008 1:12 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Kudos to Lightspeed Went to the airport to fly my Fox. I have 2 Lightspeed 20XL noise canceling headsets. They are about five years old. I went to put one of my headsets on and it came apart in my hand (Adjustment band broke). I contacted the factory and sent them my headset. It cost me $17.00 to ship it with $400 insurance. This happened on Thursday. Got my headset back in four days like brand new. They repaired it and did a diagnostic. They shipped it UPS Orange. What service!!! Out $17.00, what a deal. Lightspeed in my opinion is a pretty good company, Jeff KTZR Classic IV ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:54:08 PM PST US From: charles cook Subject: Kitfox-List: cabin heater My kit came with a small heater core with a computer fan attached to it. Is it worth the weight? Does it work okay?- The hookups use brass fittings that weigh a ton. Other safe options? Charles Cook N363KF -582 ATL=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:16:37 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: cabin heater From: "Paul A. Franz, P.E." On Wed, October 29, 2008 8:53 pm, charles cook wrote: > My kit came with a small heater core with a computer fan attached to it. Is it worth > the weight? Does it work okay? The hookups use brass fittings that weigh a ton. Other > safe options? A few years ago Lowell posted some pictures of the baffles he made on his oil cooler and IIRC used scat tube to duct heat in. He's got so much skill making stuff, it might be hard to duplicate what he did but it sure looks nicely done. Those photos might still be in the archives. -- Paul A. Franz, P.E. PAF Consulting Engineers Office 425.440.9505 Cell 425.241.1618 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.