---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 11/13/08: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:32 AM - kitfox flight simulator (DeWayne Clifford) 2. 09:46 AM - RE kitfox flight simulator (Michel Verheughe) 3. 10:03 AM - Series 4-1200 performance on floats. (tjmxer) 4. 10:06 AM - Performance mods for 582. (tjmxer) 5. 02:37 PM - Re: Series 4-1200 performance on floats. (gary.algate@sandvik.com) 6. 04:10 PM - Re: Performance mods for 582. (Bradley Webb) 7. 04:38 PM - Re: Performance mods for 582. (tjmxer) 8. 04:56 PM - Re: Re: Performance mods for 582. (gary.algate@sandvik.com) 9. 05:04 PM - Re: Re: Performance mods for 582. (Bradley Webb) 10. 05:17 PM - Re: Re: Performance mods for 582. (aerobatics@aol.com) 11. 05:48 PM - Re: Re: Performance mods for 582. (fox5flyer) 12. 06:02 PM - Re: Re: Performance mods for 582. (Bradley Webb) 13. 06:03 PM - Re: Re: Performance mods for 582. (Bradley Webb) 14. 06:08 PM - Re: Re: Performance mods for 582. (Clint Bazzill) 15. 06:46 PM - Re: Re: Performance mods for 582. (Sbennett3@aol.com) 16. 06:55 PM - Re: Re: Performance mods for 582. (gary.algate@sandvik.com) 17. 07:24 PM - Re: Performance mods for 582. (Cecil Stokesberry) 18. 09:56 PM - Re: Performance mods for 582. (akflyer) 19. 10:13 PM - Re: Performance mods for 582. (Guy Buchanan) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:32:24 AM PST US From: "DeWayne Clifford" Subject: Kitfox-List: kitfox flight simulator Has anyone on the list been able to download the kitfox flight simulator for X-Plane that Michel made to the windows software ? I have windows vista and X-Plane 9 and can't get it to download . Can anyone help ? ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:46:36 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Kitfox-List: RE kitfox flight simulator > From: DeWayne Clifford [kitfox@bresnan.net] > Has anyone on the list been able to download the kitfox flight simulator for X-Plane that Michel made > to the windows software ? I have windows vista and X-Plane 9 and can't get it to download . Can anyone help ? Do you have more information? It is my web site you can't access? Do you try directly or via x-plane.org? If you get on my site, what happens when you click the link to the file? If you manage to download it, can you unzip it? If you can do all of the above, what happens when you select the aircraft in XP9? If that is the problem, last resort is to convert it to version 9 in PlaneMaker. Because I don't have X-Plane 9. I had too much fun flying the real plane! :-) Anyway, if it is a version problem, I can probably ask an old friend to convert it for me. Cheers, Michel Verheughe Norway Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... grounded Do not archive
________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:03:10 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Series 4-1200 performance on floats. From: "tjmxer" I'm looking to purchase an LSA to use for hunting and fishing trips to upstate NY, which is approx. 200 miles from me. I really like the Kitfox Classic series 4-1200. Does anyone have any real world experience with this aircraft on floats? With a Rotax 582? I'll be flying at gross weight and would like to know what to expect in terms of performance. Any information will be greatly appreciated. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213953#213953 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:06:58 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Performance mods for 582. From: "tjmxer" Does anyone know of any performance modifications for the Rotax 582? Like carbs, tuned expansion chambers, etc that wouldn't harm reliability. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213955#213955 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:37:01 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Series 4-1200 performance on floats. From: gary.algate@sandvik.com I had the classic 4 on Zenair Aluminum floats with the 582. I also fitted the IVO In Flight adjustable prop and this really improved the float performance. With 1 person and full fuel (approx 1100lb gross) performance was excellent (+500fpm climb) At full gross it was still good, but if it was a hot day or really calm it could get interesting getting off the water on a smaller lake. Gary Gary Algate Classic 4 Jab2200 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. "tjmxer" Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com 14/11/2008 04:47 AM Please respond to kitfox-list@matronics.com To kitfox-list@matronics.com cc Subject Kitfox-List: Series 4-1200 performance on floats. I'm looking to purchase an LSA to use for hunting and fishing trips to upstate NY, which is approx. 200 miles from me. I really like the Kitfox Classic series 4-1200. Does anyone have any real world experience with this aircraft on floats? With a Rotax 582? I'll be flying at gross weight and would like to know what to expect in terms of performance. Any information will be greatly appreciated. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213953#213953 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:10:20 PM PST US From: "Bradley Webb" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Performance mods for 582. Sure. The best performance mod you can do to the 582 is to remove the engine, and bolt a 912 up in its place. Couldn't resist, Bradley -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of tjmxer Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 1:07 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Performance mods for 582. Does anyone know of any performance modifications for the Rotax 582? Like carbs, tuned expansion chambers, etc that wouldn't harm reliability. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213955#213955 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:38:06 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Performance mods for 582. From: "tjmxer" Come on. Is the 582 really that bad? Is the 912 that much better? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214021#214021 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:56:48 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Performance mods for 582. From: gary.algate@sandvik.com I've flown both and for climb performance it's reasonably close - the 582 is down on power but makes up for it in reduced weight. Gary Gary Algate Classic 4 Jab 2200 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. "tjmxer" Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com 14/11/2008 11:24 AM Please respond to kitfox-list@matronics.com To kitfox-list@matronics.com cc Subject Kitfox-List: Re: Performance mods for 582. Come on. Is the 582 really that bad? Is the 912 that much better? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214021#214021 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:04:44 PM PST US From: "Bradley Webb" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Performance mods for 582. The two motors aren't even in the same class, reliability-wise. The 582 is fine, IF you're willing to throw enough money at it often enough. Interestingly enough, I had a recent miscommunication with a friend of mine. He traded a boat for a LSA plane on the "other" coast. I piped up that I'd be happy to fly it across for him. Well, when he first told me about it, he said it had a 912. I thought, "Ok, no problem. I'd fly that engine across." Well, come to find out, it had a 582 on it, with dubious time. There was no way in H**L I was going to be caught in no-man's land with a dead two-stroke. I didn't take the trip. Incidentally, that was supposed to be this week. Seems when I tell this story to people, they all agree that flying the 582 that far was not a smart decision. We all trust the 912 to an extent. I don't trust the 582's at all. I guess it's ok for very local putzing around, but I wouldn't go anywhere with it. Go where you want, but mod'ing the 582 is the LAST thing I'd want to do. My .02 Bradley -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of tjmxer Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 7:37 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Performance mods for 582. Come on. Is the 582 really that bad? Is the 912 that much better? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214021#214021 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:17:56 PM PST US Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Performance mods for 582. From: aerobatics@aol.com Ill do the trip..... ) ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:48:48 PM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Performance mods for 582. Bradley, you should preface your remarks with "In my opinion". There are many 582 drivers on this list who would not agree with you. Deke > The two motors aren't even in the same class, reliability-wise. > > The 582 is fine, IF you're willing to throw enough money at it often > enough. > > Interestingly enough, I had a recent miscommunication with a friend of > mine. > He traded a boat for a LSA plane on the "other" coast. I piped up that I'd > be happy to fly it across for him. Well, when he first told me about it, > he > said it had a 912. I thought, "Ok, no problem. I'd fly that engine > across." > > Well, come to find out, it had a 582 on it, with dubious time. There was > no > way in H**L I was going to be caught in no-man's land with a dead > two-stroke. I didn't take the trip. Incidentally, that was supposed to be > this week. > > Seems when I tell this story to people, they all agree that flying the 582 > that far was not a smart decision. We all trust the 912 to an extent. I > don't trust the 582's at all. I guess it's ok for very local putzing > around, > but I wouldn't go anywhere with it. > > Go where you want, but mod'ing the 582 is the LAST thing I'd want to do. > My .02 > Bradley ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:02:51 PM PST US From: "Bradley Webb" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Performance mods for 582. And so will others, I'm quite sure. But not me. -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of aerobatics@aol.com Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 8:15 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Performance mods for 582. Ill do the trip..... ) ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:03:28 PM PST US From: "Bradley Webb" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Performance mods for 582. On an internet forum, it's all IMO. -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fox5flyer Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 8:47 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Performance mods for 582. Bradley, you should preface your remarks with "In my opinion". There are many 582 drivers on this list who would not agree with you. Deke > The two motors aren't even in the same class, reliability-wise. > > The 582 is fine, IF you're willing to throw enough money at it often > enough. > > Interestingly enough, I had a recent miscommunication with a friend of > mine. > He traded a boat for a LSA plane on the "other" coast. I piped up that I'd > be happy to fly it across for him. Well, when he first told me about it, > he > said it had a 912. I thought, "Ok, no problem. I'd fly that engine > across." > > Well, come to find out, it had a 582 on it, with dubious time. There was > no > way in H**L I was going to be caught in no-man's land with a dead > two-stroke. I didn't take the trip. Incidentally, that was supposed to be > this week. > > Seems when I tell this story to people, they all agree that flying the 582 > that far was not a smart decision. We all trust the 912 to an extent. I > don't trust the 582's at all. I guess it's ok for very local putzing > around, > but I wouldn't go anywhere with it. > > Go where you want, but mod'ing the 582 is the LAST thing I'd want to do. > My .02 > Bradley ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:08:02 PM PST US From: Clint Bazzill Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Performance mods for 582. YES YES YES IN THAT ORDERCLINT> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Performance mods for 582.> From: tjmxer@hotmail.com> Date: Thu=2C 13 Nov 2008 16:36:38 -0800 er" > > Come on. Is the 582 really that bad? Is the 912 that much better?> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.m ========================> _ ========================> _ =========> > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:46:52 PM PST US From: Sbennett3@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Performance mods for 582. Bradley, I agree with all you have said, It's not even that big of a debate, The two engines are in two different categories. Two stroke and reliability doesn't belong in the same sentence. Steve Bennett 4 1200 912 uls. In a message dated 11/13/2008 9:10:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, clint_bazzill@hotmail.com writes: YES YES YES IN THAT ORDER CLINT > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Performance mods for 582. > From: tjmxer@hotmail.com > Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 16:36:38 -0800 > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > Come on. Is the 582 really that bad? Is the 912 that much better? > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214021#214021 > >================= > > > (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List) **************Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news & p://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000001) ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:55:41 PM PST US Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Performance mods for 582. From: gary.algate@sandvik.com Clint and Bradley just a couple off silly questions - 1 Have you both owned/operated 582 Rotax engines 2 Do you have mechanical backgrounds Please don't take this the wrong way - I just think that it's important when giving advice that the recipient understands the qualifications behind the advice. as just owning something doesn't always make someone an authority. I still think the 582 is a great engine as is the 503 and the 912. Evidently Rotax agree as given the state of todays litigation attitude I'm sure they wouldn't continue selling a suspect product. I fly behind a Jabiru but I have owned and operated both the 503 and 582. Regards Gary Classic 4 jabiru2200 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. Clint Bazzill Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com 14/11/2008 12:56 PM Please respond to kitfox-list@matronics.com To Kitfox list cc Subject RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Performance mods for 582. YES YES YES IN THAT ORDER CLINT > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Performance mods for 582. > From: tjmxer@hotmail.com > Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 16:36:38 -0800 > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > Come on. Is the 582 really that bad? Is the 912 that much better? > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214021#214021 > >================= > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:24:20 PM PST US From: "Cecil Stokesberry" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Performance mods for 582. Are there any statistic reports for 582 failures? Cecil On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 4:08 PM, Bradley Webb wrote: > > Sure. The best performance mod you can do to the 582 is to remove the > engine, and bolt a 912 up in its place. > > Couldn't resist, > Bradley > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of tjmxer > Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 1:07 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Performance mods for 582. > > > Does anyone know of any performance modifications for the Rotax 582? Like > carbs, tuned expansion chambers, etc that wouldn't harm reliability. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213955#213955 > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:56:28 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Performance mods for 582. From: "akflyer" Call me crazy, I fly a 2 stroke through some of the most remote, hazardous, inhospitable unforgiving terrain you can think of. I dont think think twice about it. I put close to 300 hrs on a 582 in the last 2 years. Not one burble or complaint. 2 strokes get their bad reputation from guys who dont take the time to learn to "tune" or jet a 2 stroke or who dont take the time to learn what makes a 2 stoke quit. Do you have to fly a 2 stroke differently than a 4 stroke or say a lycoming ? sure you do, but they are not dangerous or "unsafe". I have had an 0320 quit on take off that gave me one option as I was hanging a pacer on the prop to clear trees. That option was to hang on a go for a ride as I found myself missing a few things, such as RPM, airspeed and altitude all at the same time....it was a quick ride straight down with nothing I could do. So far I have not had a 2 stroke let me down, but then again, I have ridden snow machines my entire life and know 2 strokes inside and out. If you dont want a 582 feel free to ship it to me, I will pay the shipping and fly behind it all day long winter, summer, spring and fall. to say that a 582 leaves nothing on the table in terms of more performance (without sacrificing reliability) is a very un-educated statement. Just my .02 -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214073#214073 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:13:59 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Performance mods for 582. At 10:06 AM 11/13/2008, you wrote: >Does anyone know of any performance modifications for the Rotax 582? >Like carbs, tuned expansion chambers, etc that wouldn't harm reliability. OK. Well. It looks like someone will have to weigh in on behalf of the poor old 582. I've been running one for the past 312 hours, with little problem. I've been on numerous cross country trips, including Oregon and Texas from SoCal. I personally think that given a good installation, regular maintenance, and a good EGT monitor it offers good service. I'll lay out some pro's and con's, but for a really good analysis get the CPS catalogue. In there is an excellent life-cycle cost breakdown. Pro 1. It's cheap to buy. (About $7k these days.) 2. It has a very good power/weight ratio. It has very good thrust, especially with the higher ratio gearboxes. 3. It's quiet. (At least mine is.) 4. It's simple to operate. (Particularly with the RK400 clutch.) It's much like flying with a snowmobile. Starting and stopping are so trivial that if I'm asked to hold short, I shut down. 5. It's simple to maintain. You can even do the rebuilds yourself. Parts are readily available and not outrageously priced. (The engine is so light you can lift it off the engine mounts yourself.) 6. Mine seems to be at least as reliable as all the 912's at the field. The old days of ruined rotary shaft seals, melted pistons, stuck rings, broken cranks, and leaky seals seem to be in the past. One nice thing about having a motor that's been around for a while - all the bugs have been worked out. Con 1. It's TBO is so low that its life-cycle cost exceeds that of the 912. (300 hours.) (See the CPS catalogue for verification.) 2. You have to feed it oil, and not just any oil. This means that for long cross countries you have to carry a lot of oil with you, pretty seriously degrading the otherwise excellent power/weight ratio. 3. It uses more fuel that a four stroke would; about the same as a 912s. 4. The torque band is not that wide, so you must watch your RPM. Low RPM = low power. 5. You MUST watch your EGTs. It's still true that you can turn your 2-stroke into a lump of slag if you're not careful. However the new instrumentation, and the HACman manual mixture controls make this much less likely. 6. It doesn't like high temperatures. With a maximum water temp of 180F you have troubles when the air temp gets into the 100s. 7. It's actually a pretty big engine, by the time you stuff in the air cleaner and exhaust system. Now as to your question on mods. The sky is quite literally the limit, if you've got the cojones. These engines are radically modified in the snowmobile and watersports world and many of the mods could easily be adapted to the 582. I have only found one "aircraft" modification and that is the exhausts offered by http://www.paraflite.net/muffler.htm. These pipes prove to be quite simple: the more fuel you throw at the engine, and the narrower you make the power-band, (see Con #4, above,) the more horsepower you get. His 80hp comes at something like 10gph! The BSFC is almost identical to the stock engine. Two other non-performance related accessories are the HACman manual mixture control and RK400 clutch. The mixture control helps keep the EGTs in line, making jetting much less critical. The RK400 clutch disengages the prop below 2600 rpm, making starting, stopping, and idling a breeze. (No more floaty landings, too.) That's probably enough for now. There's still a few of us here happily running 582s. Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.