Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 12:17 AM - Just 3 Days Left - Please Make Your List Contribution Today! (Matt Dralle)
1. 05:20 AM - Re: CAP - IFA Props was Kitfox mishap in Colorado (fox5flyer)
2. 05:54 AM - Re: Re: Humidity when painting (Dan Billingsley)
3. 06:01 AM - Re: Kitfox mishap in Colorado (Noel Loveys)
4. 06:54 AM - Re: Humidity when painting (Noel Loveys)
5. 07:07 AM - Re: Kitfox mishap in Colorado (Noel Loveys)
6. 07:11 AM - Re: Kitfox mishap in Colorado (Noel Loveys)
7. 08:17 AM - Re: Humidity when painting (Dan Billingsley)
8. 08:20 AM - Re: Humidity when painting (Lynn Matteson)
9. 08:24 AM - Re: Kitfox mishap in Colorado (Lynn Matteson)
10. 08:29 AM - Re: Kitfox mishap in Colorado (Lynn Matteson)
11. 08:48 AM - Re: Humidity when painting (Lynn Matteson)
12. 09:35 AM - Re: 582 on floats with CAP (Paul Franz - Merlin GT)
13. 09:42 AM - Re: Humidity when painting (Paul Franz - Merlin GT)
14. 10:23 AM - Re: Humidity when painting (Noel Loveys)
15. 10:23 AM - Re: Humidity when painting (Lynn Matteson)
16. 10:28 AM - Re: Beta defined. (Paul Franz - Merlin GT)
17. 10:53 AM - Re: Humidity when painting (Pete Christensen)
18. 11:03 AM - Re: Re: 582 on floats with CAP (Noel Loveys)
19. 11:16 AM - Re: Humidity when painting (Noel Loveys)
20. 11:38 AM - Re: Re: Beta defined. (Noel Loveys)
21. 11:41 AM - Re: Humidity when painting OT (Noel Loveys)
22. 11:41 AM - Re: Re: 582 on floats with CAP (Paul Franz - Merlin GT)
23. 11:55 AM - Re: Re: 582 on floats with CAP (john taylor)
24. 12:21 PM - Re: Humidity when painting (fox5flyer)
25. 02:38 PM - Re: Humidity when painting (Lynn Matteson)
26. 02:39 PM - Re: Re: 582 on floats with CAP (Noel Loveys)
27. 02:42 PM - Re: Re: 582 on floats with CAP (Noel Loveys)
28. 02:53 PM - Re: Re: 582 on floats with CAP (Lynn Matteson)
Message 0
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| Subject: | Just 3 Days Left - Please Make Your List Contribution Today! |
There are only three days left until the end of this year's List Fund Raiser.
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Matronics Email and Forum Administrator
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox mishap in Colorado |
<7suds@chartermi.net>
>
> All,
> With all the talk about cockpit adjustable propellers I would be
interested
> in hearing how those of you who are flying behind them in your Kitfox
have
> them set up, how you fly them and what your reasoning is behind your
> decisions. Also what experiences / mishaps you have encountered. The
reason
> I ask is that I have purchased one from John McBean for my 5 and will
one
> day be learning to use it.
I have eight years and over 400 hours on my NSI CAP with no problems
with it other than one time one of the brushes was stuck in the holder
and it wouldn't change pitch. However that happened on the ground so it
was no problem. Had it happened in the air it still wouldn't have been
a problem as I just wouldn't be able to change pitch. It has complete
pitch authority right into reverse pitch that enables one to back up the
airplane if wanted.
The good thing about any cockpit adjustable prop (CAP) is that you get
maximum performance at all phases of flight. As with any CAP one
doesn't need to compromise with a pitch angle as is with a ground
adjustable prop. The learning curve is very shallow and easily
overcome. Simply pitch for max HP on takeoff, add pitch during enroute
climb, then add more pitch when leveling off for cruise. Very similar
to going into overdrive. I use a combination of engine rpm, manifold
pressure, and fuel flow to set mine for cruise.
There are several CAPs out there, including the IVO units, GSC,
Airmaster, and others. All have had some teething problems, but
eventually most were sorted out. NSI CAPs are no longer being produced.
The Airmaster is a very nice unit that is an actual constant speed prop,
but with electrical activation rather than hydruaulics. I met a guy at
Oshkosh who gave good reviews on his, but I don't know how many hours he
had on it nor how many others are out there performing. It appeared
very nicely built though. He said it was designed for the 912x engines.
My advice to you Lloyd is mount that prop and go fly. You'll never go
back to an engine without one.
As for what happened to the guy in Colorado, it's futile and pointless
to speculate on it. Eventually the NTSB report will spell it all out.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but
progress."
- Joseph Joubert
>
> PS. After reading the info from the last posts about prop adjustments
and
> the braking effect, is it possible the fellow in Colorado had his prop
set
> for max climb at take off and reached max rev quickly after takeoff
and then
> attempted to adjust the prop and went the wrong way, possibly
flattening it
> out even more causing the aircraft to brake in air which might explain
the
> pancake landing observed, and at that point did not have enough time
or
> altitude to recover? Yes, TOTAL speculation.
>
> Thanks,
> Lloyd C
> Model 5 912 IVO IFA
> Michigan
>
> Checked by AVG.
> 9:02 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Humidity when painting |
Paul,
Thanks for the tips. I will be diving into it today.
Dan
--- On Thu, 11/27/08, Paul Franz - Merlin GT <paul@eucleides.com> wrote:
> From: Paul Franz - Merlin GT <paul@eucleides.com>
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Humidity when painting
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Date: Thursday, November 27, 2008, 8:03 PM
> Merlin GT" <paul@eucleides.com>
>
> On Thu, November 27, 2008 1:52 pm, Dan Billingsley wrote:
> <dan@azshowersolutions.com>
> >
> > Thanks Lynn, I couldn't find a percentage...I just
> found an indication not to spray in
> > high humidity. Anyone else actually spray paint when
> this humid? The temp is a nice 66
> > degrees.
> The relative humidity will drop considerably in your paint
> boot with all the lights as
> the temperature will be warmer but there is the same amount
> of absolute humidity but
> the relative humidity will drop with increasing
> temperature.
>
> Since you're in the allowable range now, warming the
> air will make it better.
>
> There is some variation for the type of painting you're
> doing too, that is, airless,
> HVLP, or air pot. Double check the manuals that came with
> your paint gun.
>
> The reason you are concerned at all with humidity is that
> when the compressed air
> expands and some of the solvent evaporates, both cool the
> spray. If the spray
> temperature is below the dew point of the surrounding air,
> then you get orange peel
> effect on the painted surface. So if you're using a
> compressed air type application be
> sure you have a drier in the air supply too.
>
> --
> Paul A. Franz
> Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
> Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
> Bellevue WA
> 425.241.1618 Cell
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Kitfox mishap in Colorado |
I've flowen with an Ivo IFA for the past three years... I'd recommend it to
anyone especially anyone who flies on floats. I'd blip my 582 from 6400 up
to 6800 just for take off. When I had around 200 ft under my feet then I'd
pick up the pitch to reduce rpm back to 6400 for the climb. When I got to
altitude I'd pick up the pitch again adn slow things down to around 6200
before pulling the throttle and setting a cruise rpm of around 5600 to 5800
rpm. Before landing I'd go into a climb and reset my prop for 6400 to be
ready for a go around.
I used that procedure for a couple of reasons one is it got me off the water
carrying floats a lot faster. I never let myself get into a situation where
I could not climb immediately at 400 ft/min. And I always cut my throttle
back to idle to descend. When I first started flying floats I would use
some throttle to level the plane out on landing but I was never really happy
with doing that so I continually tried to use less and less throttle on
landing, It got to the point that I haven't used throttle to land in a long
time... Then again last summer my plane spent it's holiday sans engine in
the shop.
In the interest of being safe I'll get a few hours with an instructor again
before taking the plane up again. Things do get rusty.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 11:45 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Kitfox mishap in Colorado
To extract maximum take off performance without the constant speed
feature I sometimes found it necessary or desirable to pitch the prop
flatter for maximum RPM and manifold pressure. Once on the roll, usually
just a few hundred feet off the ground, forward speed has increased to
the point the prop unloads and RPMs increase beyond what is wanted. One
must then either reduce power or pitch the prop more course. In a normal
take off scenario it really is not necessary to have to make a major
adjustment immediately after lift off. It was nice thought to be able to
go from a great climb prop to a great cruise prop at the touch of a
toggle.
On a subject not addressed, but one that was really nice, is the short
field landing or emergency short stop requirement. By putting the prop
in beta, reverse you could do some really cool approaches and short
stops. Not that one would do this on a regular basis when a good side
slip will do. Oh and should you ever need to slow down really fast in
the air, there is nothing more exciting than going beta for a few
seconds at full power. Only did that once with plenty of altitude. What
a rush being pulled forward in your harness. Only once. That was enough
for me.
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul A.
Franz, P.E.
Sent: 2008-11-26 17:34
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox mishap in Colorado
--> <paul@eucleides.com>
On Wed, November 26, 2008 4:16 pm, Lynn Matteson wrote:
>
> I'm a rookie...why would you have to adjust the pitch of the prop
> during takeoff? Seems like you'd set it for takeoff and go, then
> change it to cruise when you get there....no?
These props aren't constant speed props that you probably used in your
certified experience. So, you don't control them the same way.
With a cockpit adjustable (not-constant speed) prop, at run-up, you set
the prop to maximum horsepower rpm, WOT. As soon as you begin to roll,
you're going to either have to increase the pitch or pull back the power
to control the rpm. Best practice is normally to keep adding pitch as
required until until you reach best angle or best rate speed. When you
reach traffic pattern altitude then you reduce power as you would in a
fixed pitch propeller configuration. At this point you might need to
adjust the pitch again for best economy.
--
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
PAF Consulting Engineers
Office 425.440.9505
Cell 425.241.1618
Message 4
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| Subject: | Humidity when painting |
Lynn:
Two minor problems... concrete is an insulator... that's why they put
ground rods down through concrete and ski lift towers have separate grounds.
The other thing is a lot of hangars have epoxy finish on the floor... Epoxy
can build and hold a static charge. Wetting things down works well but not
for applying dope.
I liked the idea of the braid in your shoe.. do you have a hole in your shoe
to put the braid out through?
Noel Loveys
AME Intern, RPP
912 almost installed
Aerocet 1100 floats
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 7:08 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Humidity when painting
Dan-
I just looked for at least one of my two manuals, but couldn't find
either...one is at the hangar...I'm almost absolutely positive that
the figure is 70%. I seem to recall that it says something to the
effect that "if it's over 70% humidity, find something else to do".
I know that when I painted my plane, I measured humidity and avoided
anything over 70%, and when I absolutely needed to finish a coat or
whatever, I'd bring in the dehumidifier....my paint "booth" was about
8' x 8' x 24', so it didn't take long to bring it down. On the other
hand, I sometimes needed to wet the floor to bring it up to avoid
static electricity. I hung a length of copper braid from the metal
parts down to the floor to ground out any static build-up. You may
laugh, but I actually stuck a length of copper braid inside my sock,
and out onto the floor so I didn't get a poke when I walked around
and touched the metal parts. Such is painting in Michigan in the
Spring.
You could also use a blush retarder...Poly Fiber BR-8600....which
says on the can to "slow down the drying time." I seem to recall that
if the paint dries to fast, the humidity in the air will cause the
paint to "blush", which is the humidity showing up on the paint
surface. I can't recall all this from memory, and always look it up
just before I actually paint.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, 593hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Nov 27, 2008, at 4:52 PM, Dan Billingsley wrote:
> <dan@azshowersolutions.com>
>
> Thanks Lynn, I couldn't find a percentage...I just found an
> indication not to spray in high humidity. Anyone else actually
> spray paint when this humid? The temp is a nice 66 degrees.
> Dan
>
>
> --- On Thu, 11/27/08, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net> wrote:
>
>> From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Humidity when painting
>> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>> Date: Thursday, November 27, 2008, 2:46 PM
>> <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>>
>> 70%, according to my "Polly" manual.
>>
>> Lynn Matteson
>> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
>> Jabiru 2200, 593hrs
>> Sensenich 62x46
>> flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire
>> ignition
>> system;
>> also building a new pair of snow skis
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Nov 27, 2008, at 4:08 PM, Dan Billingsley wrote:
>>
>>
>>> <dan@azshowersolutions.com>
>>>
>>> Can someone tell me what the highest humidity
>> percentage would be
>>> to still paint the Polly products? We are at 68% right
>> now and I
>>> have blush retarder on hand...Just didn't want to
>> spin my wheels.
>>> Thanks,
>>> Dan B
>>> Mesa, AZ
>>> KF-912s
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Kitfox mishap in Colorado |
Lynn:
Beta, , is the second letter of the Greek alphabet. Alpha, =E1, is
the first
letter. As props are primarily designed to pull or push a plane through
the
air I'd assume that that would be the primary, #1 or Alpha job.
Anything
else is a second job or Beta.
As far as I know when the prop ceases to deliver thrust it can be
considered
to be in beta operation... reverse thrust is usually known as "Full
Beta"
all turbo prop engines require full beta operation. Even on floats a
Twin
Otter will use full beta on landing to shorten the landing run out. On
takeoff beta allows the turbine to spool up without load to deliver the
torque required to spin the prop.
Sigtaturea
Noel Loveys
Campbellton, NL, Canada
CDN AME intern, PP-Rec
C-FINB, Kitfox III-A
912 almost installed
Aerocet 1100 floats
noelloveys@yahoo.ca
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
Matteson
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 7:21 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox mishap in Colorado
Thanks, Mike....now as a person who needs to know how words came
about, I just have to know how do I tie the word "beta" into prop
pitch reversing? The dictionary says (for one example) "the second
item in a series of classification", so I guess the first is going
forward, and the second is "beta" or reversing, eh? Sorry to be a
pain in the butt, but "I gots to know!"
I just can't stand it when they throw a word at something without a
reasonable explanation for it.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, 593hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
do not archive
On Nov 27, 2008, at 5:20 PM, Michael Gibbs wrote:
> <MichaelGibbs@cox.net>
>
> Lynn asks:
>
>> ...what does beta mean in respect to props?
>
> Beta means the prop pitch can be reversed. Very handy for float
> planes that need to maneuver to and from a dock without the pilot
> having to get out and use a paddle.
>
> Mike G.
> N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster
> Phoenix, AZ
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Kitfox mishap in Colorado |
Lynn:
I neglected to say in my last post that the origin of the Beta and Full
Beta terms were pure speculation. They do however make it easier to
remember exactly what they do.
Noel
Message 7
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| Subject: | Humidity when painting |
Lynn and Noel,
I was having a little static buildup in the wings a while back and I tried several
things with limited success. McBean suggested I put a ground wire on the
spar. I attached the other end to the center screw on an outlet box. I had a few
tapes cut and laid across the wing and within a minute, most of them slid off
onto the ground.
--- On Fri, 11/28/08, Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> From: Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Humidity when painting
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Date: Friday, November 28, 2008, 7:54 AM
> Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
>
> Lynn:
>
> Two minor problems... concrete is an insulator...
> that's why they put
> ground rods down through concrete and ski lift towers have
> separate grounds.
> The other thing is a lot of hangars have epoxy finish on
> the floor... Epoxy
> can build and hold a static charge. Wetting things down
> works well but not
> for applying dope.
>
> I liked the idea of the braid in your shoe.. do you have a
> hole in your shoe
> to put the braid out through?
>
>
> Noel Loveys
> AME Intern, RPP
> 912 almost installed
> Aerocet 1100 floats
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf
> Of Lynn Matteson
> Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 7:08 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Humidity when painting
>
> <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
> Dan-
>
> I just looked for at least one of my two manuals, but
> couldn't find
> either...one is at the hangar...I'm almost absolutely
> positive that
> the figure is 70%. I seem to recall that it says something
> to the
> effect that "if it's over 70% humidity, find
> something else to do".
> I know that when I painted my plane, I measured humidity
> and avoided
> anything over 70%, and when I absolutely needed to finish a
> coat or
> whatever, I'd bring in the dehumidifier....my paint
> "booth" was about
> 8' x 8' x 24', so it didn't take long to
> bring it down. On the other
> hand, I sometimes needed to wet the floor to bring it up to
> avoid
> static electricity. I hung a length of copper braid from
> the metal
> parts down to the floor to ground out any static build-up.
> You may
> laugh, but I actually stuck a length of copper braid inside
> my sock,
> and out onto the floor so I didn't get a poke when I
> walked around
> and touched the metal parts. Such is painting in Michigan
> in the
> Spring.
>
> You could also use a blush retarder...Poly Fiber
> BR-8600....which
> says on the can to "slow down the drying time." I
> seem to recall that
> if the paint dries to fast, the humidity in the air will
> cause the
> paint to "blush", which is the humidity showing
> up on the paint
> surface. I can't recall all this from memory, and
> always look it up
> just before I actually paint.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, 593hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire
> ignition
> system;
> also building a new pair of snow skis
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 27, 2008, at 4:52 PM, Dan Billingsley wrote:
>
>
> > <dan@azshowersolutions.com>
> >
> > Thanks Lynn, I couldn't find a percentage...I just
> found an
> > indication not to spray in high humidity. Anyone else
> actually
> > spray paint when this humid? The temp is a nice 66
> degrees.
> > Dan
> >
> >
> > --- On Thu, 11/27/08, Lynn Matteson
> <lynnmatt@jps.net> wrote:
> >
> >> From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> >> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Humidity when painting
> >> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> >> Date: Thursday, November 27, 2008, 2:46 PM
> Matteson
> >> <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> >>
> >> 70%, according to my "Polly" manual.
> >>
> >> Lynn Matteson
> >> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> >> Jabiru 2200, 593hrs
> >> Sensenich 62x46
> >> flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair
> direct-fire
> >> ignition
> >> system;
> >> also building a new pair of snow skis
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Nov 27, 2008, at 4:08 PM, Dan Billingsley
> wrote:
> >>
> Billingsley
> >>
> >>> <dan@azshowersolutions.com>
> >>>
> >>> Can someone tell me what the highest humidity
> >> percentage would be
> >>> to still paint the Polly products? We are at
> 68% right
> >> now and I
> >>> have blush retarder on hand...Just didn't
> want to
> >> spin my wheels.
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> Dan B
> >>> Mesa, AZ
> >>> KF-912s
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Humidity when painting |
All I know is that before I used the copper braid thing, I could be
wiping down the wing, for example, and get a good poke when I'd touch
the spar. After I attached the braid, no more shocks. So after I did
this I left a length of the braid bolted right to the wing attaching
hole in the spar, and the other end was always in contact with the
ground/concrete floor.
Regarding the braid in the shoe thing....I just took my sock off and
stuck the braid into the sock, re"installed" the sock and let the
braid lay alongside my ankle, up over the top of the sock, and out
onto the floor. So in effect, I was standing on the braid with
somewhat humid bare feet, so I was in pretty good contact with it.
I don't know about Newfoundland, but here in Michigan, it gets to a
point that if you don't have some humidity going, in the house for
example, and I've got the wood-burner going, when I get out of my
chair to feed the fire, I'd better slap the steel door with my hand
before I touch it, or I'll get a surprise shock. If I slap it first,
the pain of the slap masks the shock. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, 593hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Nov 28, 2008, at 9:54 AM, Noel Loveys wrote:
>
> Lynn:
>
> Two minor problems... concrete is an insulator... that's why they
> put
> ground rods down through concrete and ski lift towers have separate
> grounds.
> The other thing is a lot of hangars have epoxy finish on the
> floor... Epoxy
> can build and hold a static charge. Wetting things down works well
> but not
> for applying dope.
>
> I liked the idea of the braid in your shoe.. do you have a hole in
> your shoe
> to put the braid out through?
>
>
> Noel Loveys
> AME Intern, RPP
> 912 almost installed
> Aerocet 1100 floats
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
> Matteson
> Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 7:08 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Humidity when painting
>
>
> Dan-
>
> I just looked for at least one of my two manuals, but couldn't find
> either...one is at the hangar...I'm almost absolutely positive that
> the figure is 70%. I seem to recall that it says something to the
> effect that "if it's over 70% humidity, find something else to do".
> I know that when I painted my plane, I measured humidity and avoided
> anything over 70%, and when I absolutely needed to finish a coat or
> whatever, I'd bring in the dehumidifier....my paint "booth" was about
> 8' x 8' x 24', so it didn't take long to bring it down. On the other
> hand, I sometimes needed to wet the floor to bring it up to avoid
> static electricity. I hung a length of copper braid from the metal
> parts down to the floor to ground out any static build-up. You may
> laugh, but I actually stuck a length of copper braid inside my sock,
> and out onto the floor so I didn't get a poke when I walked around
> and touched the metal parts. Such is painting in Michigan in the
> Spring.
>
> You could also use a blush retarder...Poly Fiber BR-8600....which
> says on the can to "slow down the drying time." I seem to recall that
> if the paint dries to fast, the humidity in the air will cause the
> paint to "blush", which is the humidity showing up on the paint
> surface. I can't recall all this from memory, and always look it up
> just before I actually paint.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, 593hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
> system;
> also building a new pair of snow skis
>
>
> On Nov 27, 2008, at 4:52 PM, Dan Billingsley wrote:
>
>> <dan@azshowersolutions.com>
>>
>> Thanks Lynn, I couldn't find a percentage...I just found an
>> indication not to spray in high humidity. Anyone else actually
>> spray paint when this humid? The temp is a nice 66 degrees.
>> Dan
>>
>>
>> --- On Thu, 11/27/08, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net> wrote:
>>
>>> From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Humidity when painting
>>> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>>> Date: Thursday, November 27, 2008, 2:46 PM
>>> <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>>>
>>> 70%, according to my "Polly" manual.
>>>
>>> Lynn Matteson
>>> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
>>> Jabiru 2200, 593hrs
>>> Sensenich 62x46
>>> flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire
>>> ignition
>>> system;
>>> also building a new pair of snow skis
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Nov 27, 2008, at 4:08 PM, Dan Billingsley wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> <dan@azshowersolutions.com>
>>>>
>>>> Can someone tell me what the highest humidity
>>> percentage would be
>>>> to still paint the Polly products? We are at 68% right
>>> now and I
>>>> have blush retarder on hand...Just didn't want to
>>> spin my wheels.
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Dan B
>>>> Mesa, AZ
>>>> KF-912s
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox mishap in Colorado |
Yup, it sounds like the use of "beta" is to designate the second
function of the prop. That's the conclusion that I came up with,
finally.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, 593hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Nov 28, 2008, at 10:06 AM, Noel Loveys wrote:
> Lynn:
>
>
> Beta, , is the second letter of the Greek alphabet. Alpha, , is
> the first letter. As props are primarily designed to pull or push
> a plane through the air Id assume that that would be the primary,
> #1 or Alpha job. Anything else is a second job or Beta.
>
>
> As far as I know when the prop ceases to deliver thrust it can be
> considered to be in beta operation... reverse thrust is usually
> known as Full Beta all turbo prop engines require full beta
> operation. Even on floats a Twin Otter will use full beta on
> landing to shorten the landing run out. On takeoff beta allows the
> turbine to spool up without load to deliver the torque required to
> spin the prop.
>
> Noel Loveys
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox mishap in Colorado |
Sounds like a good assumption, Noel..certainly works for me. And
thank God I don't have to do all that setting, resetting and stuff
when I fly...just look out the window for minutes on end, and
occasionally glance at the gauges..or is it the other way around? : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, 593hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
do not archive
On Nov 28, 2008, at 10:10 AM, Noel Loveys wrote:
>
>
> Lynn:
>
>
> I neglected to say in my last post that the origin of the Beta and
> Full Beta terms were pure speculation. They do however make it
> easier to remember exactly what they do.
>
>
> Noel
>
> ============================================================ _-
> ============================================================ _-
> ===========================================================
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Humidity when painting |
Damn gravity!
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, 593hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
do not archive
On Nov 28, 2008, at 11:16 AM, Dan Billingsley wrote:
> <dan@azshowersolutions.com>
>
> Lynn and Noel,
> I was having a little static buildup in the wings a while back and
> I tried several things with limited success. McBean suggested I put
> a ground wire on the spar. I attached the other end to the center
> screw on an outlet box. I had a few tapes cut and laid across the
> wing and within a minute, most of them slid off onto the ground.
>
Message 12
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|
| Subject: | RE: 582 on floats with CAP |
On Fri, November 28, 2008 6:01 am, Noel Loveys wrote:
clip clip
> I used that procedure for a couple of reasons one is it got me off the water
> carrying floats a lot faster. I never let myself get into a situation where
> I could not climb immediately at 400 ft/min. And I always cut my throttle
> back to idle to descend.
If I'm reading you correctly, using a CAP on a 582, solves the low power on descent
problem.
If that's correct, others with 582's will rejoice!
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
Message 13
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| Subject: | Humidity when painting |
On Fri, November 28, 2008 6:54 am, Noel Loveys wrote:
> Two minor problems... concrete is an insulator... that's why they put
> ground rods down through concrete and ski lift towers have separate grounds.
Ever rub a balloon on your hair and stick it on something like someone's shirt?
Well,
the balloon, your hair and the shirt are all insulators. They sure do accept a
charge
though. Concrete will accept that very high voltage charge too.
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
Message 14
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| Subject: | Humidity when painting |
Lynn:
Put a kettle on the wood burner. That increases the humidity enough to keep
the static down. Once the temp drops below -5C I start to get the zaps too.
Sometimes even the slap won't hide the snap of a well built up charge :-)
The idea of grounding the spar to the ground of a receptacle sounds like a
good one to me. You can keep it dry and still spray the dope.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 12:51 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Humidity when painting
All I know is that before I used the copper braid thing, I could be
wiping down the wing, for example, and get a good poke when I'd touch
the spar. After I attached the braid, no more shocks. So after I did
this I left a length of the braid bolted right to the wing attaching
hole in the spar, and the other end was always in contact with the
ground/concrete floor.
Regarding the braid in the shoe thing....I just took my sock off and
stuck the braid into the sock, re"installed" the sock and let the
braid lay alongside my ankle, up over the top of the sock, and out
onto the floor. So in effect, I was standing on the braid with
somewhat humid bare feet, so I was in pretty good contact with it.
I don't know about Newfoundland, but here in Michigan, it gets to a
point that if you don't have some humidity going, in the house for
example, and I've got the wood-burner going, when I get out of my
chair to feed the fire, I'd better slap the steel door with my hand
before I touch it, or I'll get a surprise shock. If I slap it first,
the pain of the slap masks the shock. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, 593hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Nov 28, 2008, at 9:54 AM, Noel Loveys wrote:
>
> Lynn:
>
> Two minor problems... concrete is an insulator... that's why they
> put
> ground rods down through concrete and ski lift towers have separate
> grounds.
> The other thing is a lot of hangars have epoxy finish on the
> floor... Epoxy
> can build and hold a static charge. Wetting things down works well
> but not
> for applying dope.
>
> I liked the idea of the braid in your shoe.. do you have a hole in
> your shoe
> to put the braid out through?
>
>
> Noel Loveys
> AME Intern, RPP
> 912 almost installed
> Aerocet 1100 floats
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
> Matteson
> Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 7:08 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Humidity when painting
>
>
> Dan-
>
> I just looked for at least one of my two manuals, but couldn't find
> either...one is at the hangar...I'm almost absolutely positive that
> the figure is 70%. I seem to recall that it says something to the
> effect that "if it's over 70% humidity, find something else to do".
> I know that when I painted my plane, I measured humidity and avoided
> anything over 70%, and when I absolutely needed to finish a coat or
> whatever, I'd bring in the dehumidifier....my paint "booth" was about
> 8' x 8' x 24', so it didn't take long to bring it down. On the other
> hand, I sometimes needed to wet the floor to bring it up to avoid
> static electricity. I hung a length of copper braid from the metal
> parts down to the floor to ground out any static build-up. You may
> laugh, but I actually stuck a length of copper braid inside my sock,
> and out onto the floor so I didn't get a poke when I walked around
> and touched the metal parts. Such is painting in Michigan in the
> Spring.
>
> You could also use a blush retarder...Poly Fiber BR-8600....which
> says on the can to "slow down the drying time." I seem to recall that
> if the paint dries to fast, the humidity in the air will cause the
> paint to "blush", which is the humidity showing up on the paint
> surface. I can't recall all this from memory, and always look it up
> just before I actually paint.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, 593hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
> system;
> also building a new pair of snow skis
>
>
> On Nov 27, 2008, at 4:52 PM, Dan Billingsley wrote:
>
>> <dan@azshowersolutions.com>
>>
>> Thanks Lynn, I couldn't find a percentage...I just found an
>> indication not to spray in high humidity. Anyone else actually
>> spray paint when this humid? The temp is a nice 66 degrees.
>> Dan
>>
>>
>> --- On Thu, 11/27/08, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net> wrote:
>>
>>> From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Humidity when painting
>>> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>>> Date: Thursday, November 27, 2008, 2:46 PM
>>> <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>>>
>>> 70%, according to my "Polly" manual.
>>>
>>> Lynn Matteson
>>> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
>>> Jabiru 2200, 593hrs
>>> Sensenich 62x46
>>> flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire
>>> ignition
>>> system;
>>> also building a new pair of snow skis
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Nov 27, 2008, at 4:08 PM, Dan Billingsley wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> <dan@azshowersolutions.com>
>>>>
>>>> Can someone tell me what the highest humidity
>>> percentage would be
>>>> to still paint the Polly products? We are at 68% right
>>> now and I
>>>> have blush retarder on hand...Just didn't want to
>>> spin my wheels.
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Dan B
>>>> Mesa, AZ
>>>> KF-912s
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 15
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|
| Subject: | Re: Humidity when painting |
Ever rub a fluorescent tube on your shirt in the winter in the
dark...it will glow faintly....best not to try it with an 8-footer
though.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, 593hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
do not archive
On Nov 28, 2008, at 12:41 PM, Paul Franz - Merlin GT wrote:
> <paul@eucleides.com>
>
> On Fri, November 28, 2008 6:54 am, Noel Loveys wrote:
>> <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
>
>> Two minor problems... concrete is an insulator... that's why
>> they put
>> ground rods down through concrete and ski lift towers have
>> separate grounds.
>
> Ever rub a balloon on your hair and stick it on something like
> someone's shirt? Well,
> the balloon, your hair and the shirt are all insulators. They sure
> do accept a charge
> though. Concrete will accept that very high voltage charge too.
>
> --
> Paul A. Franz
> Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
> Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
> Bellevue WA
> 425.241.1618 Cell
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | RE: Beta defined. |
On Fri, November 28, 2008 7:06 am, Noel Loveys wrote:
> Lynn:
>
>
> Beta, , is the second letter of the Greek alphabet. Alpha, , is the first
> letter. As props are primarily designed to pull or push a plane through the
> air I'd assume that that would be the primary, #1 or Alpha job. Anything
> else is a second job or Beta.
As I said before, Beta is the prop angle. If negative, that gives reverse thrust,
positive gives forward thrust.
But as I also said there is a colloquial use of the term as it applies only to
a
turboprop setup.
When a turbo prop is started it is at low idle power setting with the pitch flat.
These engines are very slow to respond to throttle settings (power) and the engine
is
advanced to run in the fast idle range. In that range, if you want to get the plane
rolling you do it not by advancing the throttle but by changing the prop pitch
and the
enormous inertia of the spinning engine and propeller allow for a quicker response
and
the plane begins to move. This technique can only be used in a narrow power band
around fast idle. This power range where you can just change the pitch to get the
plane to move has been called Beta, meaning the power range where you can just
change
beta to generate movement.
Here's an excerpt from how it works in a SAAB 340 with PL + CL:
( Happily plagiarized from
<http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/73083/> )
Basic operation
You have two levers for each engine, Power Lever (PL) and Condition Lever (CL).
The range of the CL is divided into
* Fuel off where the engine goes to feather (83.5 degrees pitch) and the fuel
is
cut off
* Start, where you are supplying fuel to the engine but the prop is still feathered
* UNF, UNFeathered, where the prop is out of feathered and basically in constant
speed mode trying to maintain 1180 RPM but without the bottoming governor (more
on
that later)
* Min to max constant speed (CS) range where the prop RPM is controlled to
be
within 1180 RPM (min) and 1384 RPM (max).
* T/M (torque motor) lockout, which will lockout, the engine control unit (ECU,
or
digital ECU, DECU, in B model a/c) if it malfunctions. Once T/M lockout is
activated, you have to shut down the engine (put the CL in fuel off) to reactivate
it.
The power lever range goes from full reverse through ground idle (GI) to flight
idle
(FI) and then on up to full power. Below FI you are operating in the beta range
where
the PL position (unless the CL is in feather or you feather manually) directly
controls the prop pitch from -16.5 to +10 degrees. Above FI there is a minimum
pitch
stop ranging from +10 (FI) to +25 (full power) degrees pitch. As you go from PL
full
aft to PL full forward, more and more fuel is added to the engine (naturally) through
signals to the Hydro-Mechanical Unit (HMU). At low power settings (below approx
30%),
this amount of fuel is not enough to spin the propeller up to the commanded 1180
RPM
at the pitch setting commanded by PL in beta range or at the minimum pitch stop.
Why do we have a beta range? Due to the slow response to throttle setting changes
in
turbo engines it is very impractical to use the throttle to control movement on
the
ground. You would have to wait for the gas generator to spin up (Ng increase),
providing more torque through the power turbine (PT) increasing the prop RPM (Np).
The
prop CS governor would then tell the pitch control unit (PCU) to increase the prop
pitch and then you would get additional power. In beta mode, you change the pitch
first instead using the inertia in the propeller system to provide thrust, letting
the
Ng accelerate or decelerate in response to Np to keep Np constant.
If the amount of fuel burned below 30% wont keep the prop spinning at 1180 RPM,
what
keeps it at constant speed in the beta range? This is where the previously mentioned
bottoming governor (BG) comes into play. The BG is active when the CL is above
UNF and
will send a signal to the HMU to add fuel above what the PL setting is dictating
to
keep the Ng up. The normal reference Np for the BG is 1040 RPM but to give more
power
in full reverse the BG reference will change to 1200 RPM Np when the pitch goes
below
10 degrees (<-10 on both engines on older versions).
CTOT
Early on it was discovered that the torque set in the beginning of the take-off
roll
would increase as the ram air effect increased with airspeed. To avoid having to
stare
at the torque (Nq) reading during the entire takeoff roll, decreasing the PL setting
to keep it at 100% and not above a CTOT (Constant Torque on Take-OFF) system was
added. When active, this system will signal to the HMU through the ECU to add fuel
until the preset Nq is reached as soon as you set the PL above a certain position.
AC
If an engine dies theres an autocoarsen (AC) system, which will detect this. It
then
proceeds to feather the dead engine automatically. Theres an inbuilt safety making
it
impossible to feather both engines in flight should this system fail. The AC system
continues to monitor a failed engine and will bring it out of AC mode should the
engine parameters used to detect a flameout increase above the threshold values
again.
APR
340B a/c has something called automatic power reserve (APR) which when one engine
goes
into AC during CTOT operation automatically adds 7 percent units of torque to the
other engine to compensate for the loss of thrust.
> As far as I know when the prop ceases to deliver thrust it can be considered
> to be in beta operation...
No, beta is the prop angle. In "beta operations", as applied to turboprop engines
the
pitch angle is changed to provide either forward or reverse thrust briefly.
> reverse thrust is usually known as "Full Beta"
Well, maybe, but that would be negative beta or reverse beta. The reverse beta
angle
is usually much higher than the maximum forward or positive beta operation. That
does
not apply to higher power settings where reverse beta is blocked from occurring
and
much higher positive prop angles are allowed.
> all turbo prop engines require full beta operation. Even on floats a Twin
> Otter will use full beta on landing to shorten the landing run out. On
> takeoff beta allows the turbine to spool up without load to deliver the
> torque required to spin the prop.
Some of this is colloquial semantics and not entirely correct, at least from an
engineer's point of view.
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
Message 17
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|
| Subject: | Humidity when painting |
What's a heater?- What's static electricity?
-
Pete
El Paso, TX
We don't need no stinkin heat.
--- On Fri, 11/28/08, Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca> wrote:
From: Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Humidity when painting
<noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
Lynn:
Put a kettle on the wood burner. That increases the humidity enough to kee
p
the static down. Once the temp drops below -5C I start to get the zaps too
.
Sometimes even the slap won't hide the snap of a well built up charge :-)
The idea of grounding the spar to the ground of a receptacle sounds like a
good one to me. You can keep it dry and still spray the dope.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 12:51 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Humidity when painting
All I know is that before I used the copper braid thing, I could be
wiping down the wing, for example, and get a good poke when I'd touch
the spar. After I attached the braid, no more shocks. So after I did
this I left a length of the braid bolted right to the wing attaching
hole in the spar, and the other end was always in contact with the
ground/concrete floor.
Regarding the braid in the shoe thing....I just took my sock off and
stuck the braid into the sock, re"installed" the sock and let the
braid lay alongside my ankle, up over the top of the sock, and out
onto the floor. So in effect, I was standing on the braid with
somewhat humid bare feet, so I was in pretty good contact with it.
I don't know about Newfoundland, but here in Michigan, it gets to a
point that if you don't have some humidity going, in the house for
example, and I've got the wood-burner going, when I get out of my
chair to feed the fire, I'd better slap the steel door with my hand
before I touch it, or I'll get a surprise shock. If I slap it first,
the pain of the slap masks the shock. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, 593hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Nov 28, 2008, at 9:54 AM, Noel Loveys wrote:
<noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
>
> Lynn:
>
> Two minor problems... concrete is an insulator... that's why they
> put
> ground rods down through concrete and ski lift towers have separate
> grounds.
> The other thing is a lot of hangars have epoxy finish on the
> floor... Epoxy
> can build and hold a static charge. Wetting things down works well
> but not
> for applying dope.
>
> I liked the idea of the braid in your shoe.. do you have a hole in
> your shoe
> to put the braid out through?
>
>
> Noel Loveys
> AME Intern, RPP
> 912 almost installed
> Aerocet 1100 floats
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
> Matteson
> Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 7:08 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Humidity when painting
>
<lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
> Dan-
>
> I just looked for at least one of my two manuals, but couldn't find
> either...one is at the hangar...I'm almost absolutely positive that
> the figure is 70%. I seem to recall that it says something to the
> effect that "if it's over 70% humidity, find something else to
do".
> I know that when I painted my plane, I measured humidity and avoided
> anything over 70%, and when I absolutely needed to finish a coat or
> whatever, I'd bring in the dehumidifier....my paint "booth"
was about
> 8' x 8' x 24', so it didn't take long to bring it down. On
the other
> hand, I sometimes needed to wet the floor to bring it up to avoid
> static electricity. I hung a length of copper braid from the metal
> parts down to the floor to ground out any static build-up. You may
> laugh, but I actually stuck a length of copper braid inside my sock,
> and out onto the floor so I didn't get a poke when I walked around
> and touched the metal parts. Such is painting in Michigan in the
> Spring.
>
> You could also use a blush retarder...Poly Fiber BR-8600....which
> says on the can to "slow down the drying time." I seem to recall
that
> if the paint dries to fast, the humidity in the air will cause the
> paint to "blush", which is the humidity showing up on the paint
> surface. I can't recall all this from memory, and always look it up
> just before I actually paint.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, 593hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
> system;
> also building a new pair of snow skis
>
>
> On Nov 27, 2008, at 4:52 PM, Dan Billingsley wrote:
>
>> <dan@azshowersolutions.com>
>>
>> Thanks Lynn, I couldn't find a percentage...I just found an
>> indication not to spray in high humidity. Anyone else actually
>> spray paint when this humid? The temp is a nice 66 degrees.
>> Dan
>>
>>
>> --- On Thu, 11/27/08, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net> wrote:
>>
>>> From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Humidity when painting
>>> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>>> Date: Thursday, November 27, 2008, 2:46 PM
>>> <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>>>
>>> 70%, according to my "Polly" manual.
>>>
>>> Lynn Matteson
>>> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
>>> Jabiru 2200, 593hrs
>>> Sensenich 62x46
>>> flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire
>>> ignition
>>> system;
>>> also building a new pair of snow skis
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Nov 27, 2008, at 4:08 PM, Dan Billingsley wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> <dan@azshowersolutions.com>
>>>>
>>>> Can someone tell me what the highest humidity
>>> percentage would be
>>>> to still paint the Polly products? We are at 68% right
>>> now and I
>>>> have blush retarder on hand...Just didn't want to
>>> spin my wheels.
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Dan B
>>>> Mesa, AZ
>>>> KF-912s
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | RE: 582 on floats with CAP |
I'm not sure what you mean about a descent power problem... pull the power
and the cows will get larger! With two stroke engines pull the power to
idle so the engine won't run lean. When I trained in the spam can I would
only cut the power to 1800rpm until final when the heat went on, full rich
and then pulled the throttle. A go around was heat off and full throttle.
I haven't had a low power decent problem. I reset the pitch of the prop
for climb rpm before descending so that power is ready to pull if needed.
Usually, when I descend I pull the power almost completely. I had my idle
set to around 1000 rpm. This was recommended to me so when the throttle is
completely closed the plane won't float on landing. I tend to plan every
landing as a short field (pond). That means no power on final or flare.
Thinning out the prop before descending will allow the 582 to come up to
climb power much faster once the throttle is opened and will of course allow
the engine to develop full rpm if a climb is needed.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Franz -
Merlin GT
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 2:04 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: RE: 582 on floats with CAP
<paul@eucleides.com>
On Fri, November 28, 2008 6:01 am, Noel Loveys wrote:
clip clip
> I used that procedure for a couple of reasons one is it got me off the
water
> carrying floats a lot faster. I never let myself get into a situation
where
> I could not climb immediately at 400 ft/min. And I always cut my throttle
> back to idle to descend.
If I'm reading you correctly, using a CAP on a 582, solves the low power on
descent
problem.
If that's correct, others with 582's will rejoice!
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
Message 19
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| Subject: | Humidity when painting |
Lynn:
Just for fun have someone key the transmitter on your plane while you hold a
fluorescent tube a couple of feet away from the antenna. You will be
surprised how far away from the antenna you will get before the light goes
out. This can be used as a subjective assessment of the power output of
your radio.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Humidity when painting
Ever rub a fluorescent tube on your shirt in the winter in the
dark...it will glow faintly....best not to try it with an 8-footer
though.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, 593hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
do not archive
On Nov 28, 2008, at 12:41 PM, Paul Franz - Merlin GT wrote:
> <paul@eucleides.com>
>
> On Fri, November 28, 2008 6:54 am, Noel Loveys wrote:
>> <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
>
>> Two minor problems... concrete is an insulator... that's why
>> they put
>> ground rods down through concrete and ski lift towers have
>> separate grounds.
>
> Ever rub a balloon on your hair and stick it on something like
> someone's shirt? Well,
> the balloon, your hair and the shirt are all insulators. They sure
> do accept a charge
> though. Concrete will accept that very high voltage charge too.
>
> --
> Paul A. Franz
> Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
> Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
> Bellevue WA
> 425.241.1618 Cell
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | RE: Beta defined. |
Paul:
All though your post is factual and well backed up, I think you missed
the
boat on this one.
I think what Lynn was looking for was how the term Beta came around.
Something that would make =93Beta=94 easier to remember
Still, I liked your only slightly plagiarized description of the
operation
of the 340 engine. Most do not realize the difference in % rpm between
ground idle and flight idle is only a few %. The ground idle has to be
so
high to keep the engine running efficiently.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Franz
-
Merlin GT
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 2:57 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: RE: Beta defined.
<paul@eucleides.com>
On Fri, November 28, 2008 7:06 am, Noel Loveys wrote:
> Lynn:
>
>
>
> Beta, , is the second letter of the Greek alphabet. Alpha, =E1, is
the
first
> letter. As props are primarily designed to pull or push a plane
through
the
> air I'd assume that that would be the primary, #1 or Alpha job.
Anything
> else is a second job or Beta.
As I said before, Beta is the prop angle. If negative, that gives
reverse
thrust,
positive gives forward thrust.
But as I also said there is a colloquial use of the term as it applies
only
to a
turboprop setup.
When a turbo prop is started it is at low idle power setting with the
pitch
flat.
These engines are very slow to respond to throttle settings (power) and
the
engine is
advanced to run in the fast idle range. In that range, if you want to
get
the plane
rolling you do it not by advancing the throttle but by changing the prop
pitch and the
enormous inertia of the spinning engine and propeller allow for a
quicker
response and
the plane begins to move. This technique can only be used in a narrow
power
band
around fast idle. This power range where you can just change the pitch
to
get the
plane to move has been called Beta, meaning the power range where you
can
just change
beta to generate movement.
Here's an excerpt from how it works in a SAAB 340 with PL + CL:
( Happily plagiarized from
<http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/73083/> )
Basic operation
You have two levers for each engine, Power Lever (PL) and Condition
Lever
(CL).
The range of the CL is divided into
* Fuel off where the engine goes to feather (83.5 degrees pitch) and
the
fuel is
cut off
* Start, where you are supplying fuel to the engine but the prop is
still feathered
* UNF, UNFeathered, where the prop is out of feathered and basically
in
constant
speed mode trying to maintain 1180 RPM but without the bottoming
governor
(more on
that later)
* Min to max constant speed (CS) range where the prop RPM is
controlled
to be
within 1180 RPM (min) and 1384 RPM (max).
* T/M (torque motor) lockout, which will lockout, the engine control
unit (ECU, or
digital ECU, DECU, in B model a/c) if it malfunctions. Once T/M lockout
is
activated, you have to shut down the engine (put the CL in fuel off) to
reactivate
it.
The power lever range goes from full reverse through ground idle (GI) to
flight idle
(FI) and then on up to full power. Below FI you are operating in the
beta
range where
the PL position (unless the CL is in feather or you feather manually)
directly
controls the prop pitch from -16.5 to +10 degrees. Above FI there is a
minimum pitch
stop ranging from +10 (FI) to +25 (full power) degrees pitch. As you go
from
PL full
aft to PL full forward, more and more fuel is added to the engine
(naturally) through
signals to the Hydro-Mechanical Unit (HMU). At low power settings (below
approx 30%),
this amount of fuel is not enough to spin the propeller up to the
commanded
1180 RPM
at the pitch setting commanded by PL in beta range or at the minimum
pitch
stop.
Why do we have a beta range? Due to the slow response to throttle
setting
changes in
turbo engines it is very impractical to use the throttle to control
movement
on the
ground. You would have to wait for the gas generator to spin up (Ng
increase),
providing more torque through the power turbine (PT) increasing the prop
RPM
(Np). The
prop CS governor would then tell the pitch control unit (PCU) to
increase
the prop
pitch and then you would get additional power. In beta mode, you change
the
pitch
first instead using the inertia in the propeller system to provide
thrust,
letting the
Ng accelerate or decelerate in response to Np to keep Np constant.
If the amount of fuel burned below 30% won=92t keep the prop spinning at
1180
RPM, what
keeps it at constant speed in the beta range? This is where the
previously
mentioned
bottoming governor (BG) comes into play. The BG is active when the CL is
above UNF and
will send a signal to the HMU to add fuel above what the PL setting is
dictating to
keep the Ng up. The normal reference Np for the BG is 1040 RPM but to
give
more power
in full reverse the BG reference will change to 1200 RPM Np when the
pitch
goes below
'10 degrees (<-10 on both engines on older versions).
CTOT
Early on it was discovered that the torque set in the beginning of the
take-off roll
would increase as the ram air effect increased with airspeed. To avoid
having to stare
at the torque (Nq) reading during the entire takeoff roll, decreasing
the PL
setting
to keep it at 100% and not above a CTOT (Constant Torque on Take-OFF)
system
was
added. When active, this system will signal to the HMU through the ECU
to
add fuel
until the preset Nq is reached as soon as you set the PL above a certain
position.
AC
If an engine dies there=92s an autocoarsen (AC) system, which will
detect
this. It then
proceeds to feather the dead engine automatically. There=92s an inbuilt
safety
making it
impossible to feather both engines in flight should this system fail.
The AC
system
continues to monitor a failed engine and will bring it out of AC mode
should
the
engine parameters used to detect a flameout increase above the threshold
values again.
APR
340B a/c has something called automatic power reserve (APR) which when
one
engine goes
into AC during CTOT operation automatically adds 7 percent units of
torque
to the
other engine to compensate for the loss of thrust.
> As far as I know when the prop ceases to deliver thrust it can be
considered
> to be in beta operation...
No, beta is the prop angle. In "beta operations", as applied to
turboprop
engines the
pitch angle is changed to provide either forward or reverse thrust
briefly.
> reverse thrust is usually known as "Full Beta"
Well, maybe, but that would be negative beta or reverse beta. The
reverse
beta angle
is usually much higher than the maximum forward or positive beta
operation.
That does
not apply to higher power settings where reverse beta is blocked from
occurring and
much higher positive prop angles are allowed.
> all turbo prop engines require full beta operation. Even on floats a
Twin
> Otter will use full beta on landing to shorten the landing run out.
On
> takeoff beta allows the turbine to spool up without load to deliver
the
> torque required to spin the prop.
Some of this is colloquial semantics and not entirely correct, at least
from
an
engineer's point of view.
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
Message 21
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| Subject: | Humidity when painting OT |
Boy could I have fun with you... Braggart!!! J
Just remembered... do not archive
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pete
Christensen
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 3:23 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Humidity when painting
What's a heater? What's static electricity?
Pete
El Paso, TX
We don't need no stinkin heat.
--- On Fri, 11/28/08, Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca> wrote:
From: Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Humidity when painting
<noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
Lynn:
Put a kettle on the wood burner. That increases the humidity enough to keep
the static down. Once the temp drops below -5C I start to get the zaps too.
Sometimes even the slap won't hide the snap of a well built up charge :-)
The idea of grounding the spar to the ground of a receptacle sounds like a
good one to me. You can keep it dry and still spray the dope.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 12:51 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Humidity when painting
All I know is that before I used the copper braid thing, I could be
wiping down the wing, for example, and get a good poke when I'd touch
the spar. After I attached the braid, no more shocks. So after I did
this I left a length of the braid bolted right to the wing attaching
hole in the spar, and the other end was always in contact with the
ground/concrete floor.
Regarding the braid in the shoe thing....I just took my sock off and
stuck the braid into the sock, re"installed" the sock and let the
braid lay alongside my ankle, up over the top of the sock, and out
onto the floor. So in effect, I was standing on the braid with
somewhat humid bare feet, so I was in pretty good contact with it.
I don't know about Newfoundland, but here in Michigan, it gets to a
point that if you don't have some humidity going, in the house for
example, and I've got the wood-burner going, when I get out of my
chair to feed the fire, I'd better slap the steel door with my hand
before I touch it, or I'll get a surprise shock. If I slap it first,
the pain of the slap masks the shock. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, 593hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Nov 28, 2008, at 9:54 AM, Noel Loveys wrote:
<noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
>
> Lynn:
>
> Two minor problems... concrete is an insulator... that's why they
> put
> ground rods down through concrete and ski lift towers have separate
> grounds.
> The other thing is a lot of hangars have epoxy finish on the
> floor... Epoxy
> can build and hold a static charge. Wetting things down works well
> but not
> for applying dope.
>
> I liked the idea of the braid in your shoe.. do you have a hole in
> your shoe
> to put the braid out through?
>
>
> Noel Loveys
> AME Intern, RPP
> 912 almost installed
> Aerocet 1100 floats
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
> Matteson
> Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 7:08 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Humidity when painting
>
<lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
> Dan-
>
> I just looked for at least one of my two manuals, but couldn't find
> either...one is at the hangar...I'm almost absolutely positive that
> the figure is 70%. I seem to recall that it says something to the
> effect that "if it's over 70% humidity, find something else to
do".
> I know that when I painted my plane, I measured humidity and avoided
> anything over 70%, and when I absolutely needed to finish a coat or
> whatever, I'd bring in the dehumidifier....my paint "booth"
was about
> 8' x 8' x 24', so it didn't take long to bring it down. On
the other
> hand, I sometimes needed to wet the floor to bring it up to avoid
> static electricity. I hung a length of copper braid from the metal
> parts down to the floor to ground out any static build-up. You may
> laugh, but I actually stuck a length of copper braid inside my sock,
> and out onto the floor so I didn't get a poke when I walked around
> and touched the metal parts. Such is painting in Michigan in the
> Spring.
>
> You could also use a blush retarder...Poly Fiber BR-8600....which
> says on the can to "slow down the drying time." I seem to recall
that
> if the paint dries to fast, the humidity in the air will cause the
> paint to "blush", which is the humidity showing up on the paint
> surface. I can't recall all this from memory, and always look it up
> just before I actually paint.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, 593hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
> system;
> also building a new pair of snow skis
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 27, 2008, at 4:52 PM, Dan Billingsley wrote:
>
>> <dan@azshowersolutions.com>
>>
>> Thanks Lynn, I couldn't find a percentage...I just found an
>> indication not to spray in high humidity. Anyone else actually
>> spray paint when this humid? The temp is a nice 66 degrees.
>> Dan
>>
>>
>> --- On Thu, 11/27/08, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net> wrote:
>>
>>> From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Humidity when painting
>>> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>>> Date: Thursday, November 27, 2008, 2:46 PM
>>> <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>>>
>>> 70%, according to my "Polly" manual.
>>>
>>> Lynn Matteson
>>> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
>>> Jabiru 2200, 593hrs
>>> Sensenich 62x46
>>> flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire
>>> ignition
>>> system;
>>> also building a new pair of snow skis
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Nov 27, 2008, at 4:08 PM, Dan Billingsley wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> <dan@azshowersolutions.com>
>>>>
>>>> Can someone tell me what the highest humidity
>>> percentage would be
>>>> to still paint the Polly products? We are at 68% right
>>> now and I
>>>> have blush retarder on hand...Just didn't want to
>>> spin my wheels.
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Dan B
>>>> Mesa, AZ
>>>> KF-912s
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
D========================
=========
D========================
=========
D========================
=========
D========================
=========
Message 22
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|
| Subject: | RE: 582 on floats with CAP |
On Fri, November 28, 2008 11:02 am, Noel Loveys wrote:
> I'm not sure what you mean about a descent power problem...
Without a CAP, 582 users on this list have frequently stated that you have to use
a
step descent technique or you risk seizing from high engine rpm but low fuel flow.
Your setup beats this problem! Long power off descents are the 2-stroke engine
killer
with a fixed pitch prop. Your writeup on procedure an example of what can be learned
on this list. I was very pleased to learn this from you.
> pull the power
> and the cows will get larger! With two stroke engines pull the power to
> idle so the engine won't run lean. When I trained in the spam can I would
> only cut the power to 1800rpm until final when the heat went on, full rich
> and then pulled the throttle. A go around was heat off and full throttle.
>
>
> I haven't had a low power decent problem. I reset the pitch of the prop
> for climb rpm before descending so that power is ready to pull if needed.
>
>
> Usually, when I descend I pull the power almost completely. I had my idle
> set to around 1000 rpm. This was recommended to me so when the throttle is
> completely closed the plane won't float on landing. I tend to plan every
> landing as a short field (pond). That means no power on final or flare.
That is best practice technique in my view and matches my flight training which
came
from a high time military instructor.
There is one exception that the AK guys will tell you, and that is very cold weather
operations, they don't like to run power to idle especially without cowl flaps
since
adding power for a go around is asking for cracked heads.
> Thinning out the prop before descending will allow the 582 to come up to
> climb power much faster once the throttle is opened and will of course allow
> the engine to develop full rpm if a climb is needed.
The fixed pitch people can't do that, of course. Your setup and procedure sounds
perfect to me.
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: RE: 582 on floats with CAP |
john bowman here in prairieville, la, bldg avid+ (airdale)- i know that has
been discussed before, but help me get it right. flying under the sport pi
lot rule with drivers license vice faa medical-- does that impact use of a
ifa/cap?? tnx & happy tnxgvng....great skiing wx here in south la, water sk
iing that is! 82 degrees. how u like them apples, leni ?=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A____
____________________________=0AFrom: Paul Franz - Merlin GT <paul@eucleides
..com>=0ATo: kitfox-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Friday, November 28, 2008 11:
34:14 AM=0ASubject: Kitfox-List: RE: 582 on floats with CAP=0A=0A--> Kitfox
-List message posted by: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT" <paul@eucleides.com>=0A
=0AOn Fri, November 28, 2008 6:01 am, Noel Loveys wrote:=0A> --> Kitfox-Lis
t message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>=0A=0Aclip clip=0A
=0A> I used that procedure for a couple of reasons one is it got me off the
water=0A> carrying floats a lot faster.- I never let myself get into a s
ituation where=0A> I could not climb immediately at 400 ft/min. And I alway
s cut my throttle=0A> back to idle to descend.=0A=0AIf I'm reading you corr
ectly, using a CAP on a 582, solves the low power on descent=0Aproblem.=0A
=0AIf that's correct, others with 582's will rejoice!=0A=0A=0A-- =0APaul A.
Franz=0ARegistration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT=0AEngine/Prop - Rotax 914/
==================0A=0A=0A
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Humidity when painting |
When I worked ATC for many years, for some reason the control towers were
very prone to extremely dry air, especially in winter. We had a habit of
carrying a key around in our hand and when we would walk across the room,
before touching anything else, we would touch some metal with the key to
release our static charge. Often there would be fairly large arc with a
loud pop from the key to the metal. By using the key (or any other piece of
metal), there was no discomfort. A good way to get someone riled up was to
discharge it on someone's ear.
Deke
do not archive
> Regarding the braid in the shoe thing....I just took my sock off and
> stuck the braid into the sock, re"installed" the sock and let the braid
> lay alongside my ankle, up over the top of the sock, and out onto the
> floor. So in effect, I was standing on the braid with somewhat humid bare
> feet, so I was in pretty good contact with it.
>
> I don't know about Newfoundland, but here in Michigan, it gets to a point
> that if you don't have some humidity going, in the house for example, and
> I've got the wood-burner going, when I get out of my chair to feed the
> fire, I'd better slap the steel door with my hand before I touch it, or
> I'll get a surprise shock. If I slap it first, the pain of the slap masks
> the shock. : )
>
> Lynn Matteson
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Humidity when painting |
I knew there was something I was forgetting...when I get out of my
Laz-E-Boy (sp?) to attend the wood fire (in the house), I carry my
fingernail clippers or keys or something to discharge the static on
the metal handle of the wood stove. I see a spark about a quarter-
inch long when I do this. With a humidifier going this year, I
haven't had this fun (?) experience so far. Just for the record, it's
52% out, and 35% inside right now. This all reminds me to be extra
sure to ground the plane when I fill the tanks from my hangar bulk
tank...this should of course serve as a reminder to all Kitfox owners
and operators to be sure to do the same when filling wherever the
filling takes place. (see, I remembered, Guy and Mike :) I could
sense you were about to pull the plug on this one)
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, 593hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
do not archive
On Nov 28, 2008, at 3:20 PM, fox5flyer wrote:
> <fox5flyer@idealwifi.net>
>
> When I worked ATC for many years, for some reason the control
> towers were very prone to extremely dry air, especially in winter.
> We had a habit of carrying a key around in our hand and when we
> would walk across the room, before touching anything else, we would
> touch some metal with the key to release our static charge. Often
> there would be fairly large arc with a loud pop from the key to the
> metal. By using the key (or any other piece of metal), there was
> no discomfort. A good way to get someone riled up was to discharge
> it on someone's ear.
> Deke
> do not archive
>
>> Regarding the braid in the shoe thing....I just took my sock off
>> and stuck the braid into the sock, re"installed" the sock and let
>> the braid lay alongside my ankle, up over the top of the sock,
>> and out onto the floor. So in effect, I was standing on the braid
>> with somewhat humid bare feet, so I was in pretty good contact
>> with it.
>>
>> I don't know about Newfoundland, but here in Michigan, it gets to
>> a point that if you don't have some humidity going, in the house
>> for example, and I've got the wood-burner going, when I get out
>> of my chair to feed the fire, I'd better slap the steel door with
>> my hand before I touch it, or I'll get a surprise shock. If I
>> slap it first, the pain of the slap masks the shock. : )
>>
>> Lynn Matteson
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | RE: 582 on floats with CAP |
Ok... now I see what you are getting at.
The trick, if there is one, is to descend at idle not reduced throttle.
When at idle the Rotax engine goes into a very rich mixture. On the way
down I normally do engine warms every thirty seconds or so. The engine warm
I use on the 582 is about ten seconds of full throttle with the nose up to
keep the prop under load. Also when descending I keep an eye on my EGTs...
then again I'm always checking my EGTs.
You will get into a problem if you pull the throttle back to say 3000 or
4000 rpm to descend. Basically it's an all or nothing situation. At idle
my engine only churns about 2500 in the descent with the throttle pulled
back to the idle stop. EGTs will drop maybe 50Deg from cruise. Engine warm
ups are always done if I notice a large drop in water temp. I never snap
the throttle open always let the engine pick up evenly with a direct
application of throttle.
So far the only hiccup I've had was last year when a perforated diaphragm in
the fuel pump made things quite interesting. On that occasion I had to land
with just about full power on to keep the engine from stalling... Gas was
leaking doun th impulse line like a fire hose... lots of fun! Gas
everywhere including some very hot exhausts.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Franz -
Merlin GT
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 4:12 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: RE: 582 on floats with CAP
<paul@eucleides.com>
On Fri, November 28, 2008 11:02 am, Noel Loveys wrote:
> I'm not sure what you mean about a descent power problem...
Without a CAP, 582 users on this list have frequently stated that you have
to use a
step descent technique or you risk seizing from high engine rpm but low fuel
flow.
Your setup beats this problem! Long power off descents are the 2-stroke
engine killer
with a fixed pitch prop. Your writeup on procedure an example of what can be
learned
on this list. I was very pleased to learn this from you.
> pull the power
> and the cows will get larger! With two stroke engines pull the power to
> idle so the engine won't run lean. When I trained in the spam can I would
> only cut the power to 1800rpm until final when the heat went on, full rich
> and then pulled the throttle. A go around was heat off and full throttle.
>
>
> I haven't had a low power decent problem. I reset the pitch of the prop
> for climb rpm before descending so that power is ready to pull if needed.
>
>
> Usually, when I descend I pull the power almost completely. I had my idle
> set to around 1000 rpm. This was recommended to me so when the throttle
is
> completely closed the plane won't float on landing. I tend to plan
every
> landing as a short field (pond). That means no power on final or flare.
That is best practice technique in my view and matches my flight training
which came
from a high time military instructor.
There is one exception that the AK guys will tell you, and that is very cold
weather
operations, they don't like to run power to idle especially without cowl
flaps since
adding power for a go around is asking for cracked heads.
> Thinning out the prop before descending will allow the 582 to come up to
> climb power much faster once the throttle is opened and will of course
allow
> the engine to develop full rpm if a climb is needed.
The fixed pitch people can't do that, of course. Your setup and procedure
sounds
perfect to me.
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
Message 27
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| Subject: | RE: 582 on floats with CAP |
I'm a little north of the lower 48 but the scuttlebutt is, the minute you
install an IFA if it gets into the log book the plane can never be
registered under sport aviation rules.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of john taylor
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 4:26 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: RE: 582 on floats with CAP
john bowman here in prairieville, la, bldg avid+ (airdale)- i know that has
been discussed before, but help me get it right. flying under the sport
pilot rule with drivers license vice faa medical-- does that impact use of a
ifa/cap?? tnx & happy tnxgvng....great skiing wx here in south la, water
skiing that is! 82 degrees. how u like them apples, leni ?
_____
From: Paul Franz - Merlin GT <paul@eucleides.com>
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 11:34:14 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: RE: 582 on floats with CAP
<paul@eucleides.com>
On Fri, November 28, 2008 6:01 am, Noel Loveys wrote:
clip clip
> I used that procedure for a couple of reasons one is it got me off the
water
> carrying floats a lot faster. I never let myself get into a situation
D========================
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Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: RE: 582 on floats with CAP |
How it impacts it is...you can't ! Under Sport Pilot rules, you are
not allowed to have an in-flight adjustable prop. They want to keep
the operation of any plane flyable by a SP simple, i.e. non-complex
(I think that is the term). It's been a while since I looked at the
exact wording for Sport Pilot, but that comes pretty close. The prop
on any plane being flown by a Sport Pilot can only be fixed-pitch, or
have one that is ground-adjustable only.
Lynn Matteson (2 years as a Sport Pilot)
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, 593hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Nov 28, 2008, at 2:55 PM, john taylor wrote:
> john bowman here in prairieville, la, bldg avid+ (airdale)- i know
> that has been discussed before, but help me get it right. flying
> under the sport pilot rule with drivers license vice faa medical--
> does that impact use of a ifa/cap?? tnx & happy tnxgvng....great
> skiing wx here in south la, water skiing that is! 82 degrees. how u
> like them apples, leni ?
>
> From: Paul Franz - Merlin GT <paul@eucleides.com>
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 11:34:14 AM
> Subject: Kitfox-List: RE: 582 on floats with CAP
>
> <paul@eucleides.com>
>
> On Fri, November 28, 2008 6:01 am, Noel Loveys wrote:
> <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
>
> clip clip
>
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