Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:25 AM - Re: Kitfox-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 12/08/08 (michael paton)
2. 05:39 AM - Re: Re: Kitfox mishap in Colorado (Kitfoxkirk)
3. 06:25 AM - Re: sight glass fuel indicator? (Marco Menezes)
4. 06:39 AM - Re: sight glass fuel indicator? (Lynn Matteson)
5. 07:51 AM - Re: My Kitfox hit my car. What to look for damage wise? (815TL)
6. 07:57 AM - Re: sight glass fuel indicator? (Joe & Jan Connell)
7. 08:02 AM - Re: Re: Kitfox mishap in Colorado (Rick)
8. 08:28 AM - Re: Re: Kitfox mishap in Colorado (Noel Loveys)
9. 09:08 AM - Re: Re: Kitfox mishap in Colorado (Noel Loveys)
10. 12:04 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox mishap in Colorado (Pete Christensen)
11. 02:58 PM - first flight on skis this year (Jim_and_Lucy Chuk)
12. 05:16 PM - Re: first flight on skis this year (Lynn Matteson)
13. 05:35 PM - Re: first flight on skis this year (Lynn Matteson)
14. 05:44 PM - Re: sight glass fuel indicator? (WurlyBird)
15. 05:59 PM - Re: sight glass fuel indicator? (Bradley Webb)
16. 06:42 PM - Re: first flight on skis this year (akflyer)
17. 07:10 PM - Re: Re: sight glass fuel indicator? (Lynn Matteson)
18. 07:56 PM - Re: Re: sight glass fuel indicator? (Michael Gibbs)
19. 08:12 PM - Re: sight glass fuel indicator? (gary.algate@sandvik.com)
20. 09:35 PM - Re: first flight on skis this year (Jim_and_Lucy Chuk)
21. 09:47 PM - Acrylic Drill Bits (gary.algate@sandvik.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 12/08/08 |
hi all
i am looking for an enginless kitfox, we have arotax engine 914 but lost the plane
in a crash ,if anybody can help let us know
thanks michael
--- On Mon, 12/8/08, Kitfox-List Digest Server <kitfox-list@matronics.com> wrote:
From: Kitfox-List Digest Server <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List Digest: 15 Msgs - 12/08/08
*
=================================================
Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
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Today's complete Kitfox-List Digest can also be found in either of the
two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
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and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
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HTML Version:
http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 08-12-08&Archive=Kitfox
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===============================================
EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
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Kitfox-List Digest Archive
---
Total Messages Posted Mon 12/08/08: 15
----------------------------------------------------------
Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:24 AM - List of Contributors 2008 (Matt Dralle)
2. 03:54 AM - Re: electrical wiring for Kitfox 1 (William Skipwith)
3. 04:21 AM - Re: sight glass fuel indicator? (Bradley Webb)
4. 08:28 AM - Re: sight glass fuel indicator? (Lowell Fitt)
5. 09:15 AM - Re: sight glass fuel indicator? (Rick)
6. 11:38 AM - Re: electrical wiring for Kitfox 1 (Guy Buchanan)
7. 11:38 AM - Re: My Kitfox hit my car. What to look for damage wise?
(Guy Buchanan)
8. 12:35 PM - Re: My Kitfox hit my car. What to look for damage wise?
(815TL)
9. 12:39 PM - Re: sight glass fuel indicator? (Paul Morel)
10. 02:16 PM - Re: sight glass fuel indicator? (Lynn Matteson)
11. 02:45 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox mishap in Colorado (Noel Loveys)
12. 03:23 PM - Re: sight glass fuel indicator? (patrick reilly)
13. 07:14 PM - Re: sight glass fuel indicator? (Lynn Matteson)
14. 07:23 PM - Re: sight glass fuel indicator? (Lynn Matteson)
15. 07:26 PM - Re: sight glass fuel indicator? (gary.algate@sandvik.com)
________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
Time: 12:24:36 AM PST US
From: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: List of Contributors 2008
Dear Listers,
This year's Fund Raiser has drawn to a close and I want to thank everyone
that
so generously made a contribution this year in support of the Matronics Email
List and Forum operation. Your generosity keeps the wheels on this cart and I
truly appreciate the many kind words of encouragement and financial
reimbursement.
If you haven't yet made a Contribution in support of this year's Fund
Raiser, please
feel free to do so. The great List Fund Raiser gifts will be available
on the Contribution site for a little while longer, so hurry and make your
Contribution
today and still get your great gift! Once again, the URL for the Contribution
web site is:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
or by personal check to:
Matronics / Matt Dralle
PO Box 347
Livermore CA 94551-0347
I would like to thank Andy Gold of the Builder's Bookstore (
http://www.buildersbooks.com ), Jon Croke of HomebuiltHELP (
http://www.homebuilthelp.com ) and Bob Nuckolls of AeroElectric (
http://www.aeroelectric.com ) for their extremely generous support during this
year's Fund Raiser through the contribution of discounted merchandise.
These are great guys that support the aviation industry and I encourage each and
every Lister to have a look at their products. Thank you Andy, Jon and Bob!!
Your support is very much appreciated!
And finally, below you will find a web link to the 2008 List of Contributors
current
as of 12/7/08! Have a look at this list of names as *these* are the people
that make all of these List services possible! I can't thank each of you
enough for your support and great feedback during this year's Fund Raiser!
THANK YOU!
http://www.matronics.com/loc/2008.html
I will be shipping out all of the gifts around the end of December. In most
cases,
gifts will be shipped via US Postal Service.
Once again, thank you for making this year's List Fund Raiser successful!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
Time: 03:54:45 AM PST US
From: William Skipwith <bskip@mac.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: electrical wiring for Kitfox 1
I actually had the same thing happen on my 66 C-150 when I changed the
battery. I repaired a small wire that I thought I broke while removing
the battery. It turned out that when I had the plunger type ignition
replaced with a push button the wire was no longer needed and was cut
into but never removed. The ignition was heavy duty so it was not
effected by my bad.
On Dec 7, 2008, at 9:41 PM, jlno7@aim.com wrote:
> I have a Kitfox 1 with 2 modifications. I believe I have a short in
> my wiring and am wondering if there is a wiring diagram for my
> plane. I recently installed a new battery and when I hooked it up
> the wire melted from the ignition all the way to the battery. This
> is not the main cable but a regular gauge wire that attached from
> the battery to the ignition switch. Can anyone give me advice on
> locating the problem.
> Jerry Novak
> N299JK
>
> Listen to 350+ music, sports, & news radio stations ' including
> songs for the holidays ' FREE while you browse. Start Listening Now!
>
________________________________ Message 3
_____________________________________
Time: 04:21:05 AM PST US
From: "Bradley Webb" <bmwebb@cox.net>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: sight glass fuel indicator?
The AN series aluminum reducers would work better than brass, I'd think.
Taps are tapered, so you could size the threads smaller than normal, and get
a good "bite", such that the adhesive would only serve to seal it and
hold
it in place.
BTW, I slip to feed the header in the exact same way. But my fuel system is
designed to detect header feed and level, not so much fuel level in the
tanks.
Because I run a fuel injected engine which requires pressure, I have a flow
sender that tells me flow into the header, and a level switch in the header
tank to detect anything less than full. With this setup, no fuel flow
indication means my header is not getting filled, and I wait for the light
to come on, which indicates about 45 minutes of run time remaining at that
point.
It works nicely, in that I can do whatever is required to keep feeding the
header tank (slip, etc.) and when the light goes on, I have VFR fuel
reserve, and need to land. I know that at 21 in/hg, I flow about 2.2gph, so
less flow indicates no header feeding, such as a blockage. More flow
indicates the header has gotten low, and is refilling itself. Either way,
the fuel pump is sending fuel to the engine.
Actually, my fuel tank level senders are superfluous, and only serve to
provide an estimate of fuel level in flight. I use them more on preflight to
determine whether refueling is necessary. On my new Model three, I'm going
to do both senders and sight gauges, just for redundancy, and neither is
hard nor expensive to do.
Bradley
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 9:18 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: sight glass fuel indicator?
>
>
> I'm not sure if epoxy would stick to the brass, would it? Maybe scuff
> it up real good, or better yet, chuck it up in a lathe and knurl the
> outside of the threaded area, then epoxy in place. That would
> certainly make enough of a "bitable surface" for epoxy
adherence.
>
> As far as getting it right down to the bottom of the tank, remember
> this is only for a sight gauge, so not being able to visibly read the
> very last drop of fuel would be a good thing...you'd be landing for a
> fill-up before you got into an emergency situation (said the guy who
> flies with one wing low so the other can feed his header tank, and
> thereby make it to the next stop) : )
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 593hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
> system;
> also building a new pair of snow skis
> do not archive
>
>
>
> On Dec 6, 2008, at 10:03 PM, Bradley Webb wrote:
>
> >
> > Lynn,
> >
> > The idea of using the threaded reducer is a very good one. One
> > could epoxy
> > that in place so it's would stay permanently. The only small
issue
> > I could
> > see is that the port will not be at the very bottom of the tank.
> >
> > Bradley
>
>
>
>
________________________________ Message 4
_____________________________________
Time: 08:28:31 AM PST US
From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: sight glass fuel indicator?
For what it's worth, over the weekend I rethought my suggested method for
retrofitting a sight gauge in an already installed tank and thought of one
additional step. After the bosses are fabricated and tapped, I would
postition them in place, mark the position of the tapped hole, drill through
the tank - small hole -and Hysol a short length of aluminum tube through
the hole. The tube would protect the wall of the tank from constant contact
with fuel. Then I would Hysol the fabricted tapped boss to the side of the
tank.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lowell Fitt" <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 8:21 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: sight glass fuel indicator?
>
> For what it's worth, the reducer is a long time practice with Kitfox
for
> the finger strainers which are, or should be, removed periodically for
> inspection. Thinking of the finger strainers, I don't think with
these in
> place and the usual down line fuel filters, I would hesitate drilling for
> sight gauges. I think there are methods to remove most drill debris and
> methods to reduce it.
>
> I think, what I would do is make a boss out of fiberglass, drill and tap
> the boss, then glue it in the desired place with Hysol. Then take a #30
> or so drill and drill down the center of the threaded boss. This way you
> don't have to put a drilled plug in the tubing to dampen surges in the
> sight gauge. The sight gauges are standard on the Model IV and up so
> they have tons of long term use. I think the leakage issues of time past
> have been resolved with different fittings and lots of home brew methods
> for nice looking and quite accurate gauges - mine - I could estimate
> within a gallon or so. Personally, I would much rather look at my fuel
> than a needle if fuel was a critical issue at any time.
>
> I talked to a guy recently that mistook a vertical needle as half full,
> when it actually was on flat out empty. Then we can all recall stories of
> folks that suffered engine outs with lots of fuel still showing on the
> gauge. Not much chance of error with a puddle of gas in a plastic tube.
>
> If you haven't worked much with fiberglass, cover the desired areas
top
> and bottom with clear packing tape and then lay on a couple of layers of
> fiberglass. When it cures, pop the glass off and using that as a bases,
> lay up enough additional layers for sufficient threads to hold the
> fitting. Drill and tap and trim to a reasonable shape and size and after
> roughing both mating surfaces glue it in place with Hysol or some other
> structural adhesive. Drill the tiny hole and put the fittings and tubing
> together. With this method, the only clearance issues would be fitting
> issues and it could be placed pretty close to the top and bottom of the
> tank. Any debris from the drilling would be minimal and easily trapped in
> the fiters.
>
> Lowell Fitt
> Cameron Park, CA
> Model IV-1200 R-912 UL
> Currently focusing on the Left Wing, Rudder Gap Seal Cuffs and Landing
> Gear Fairing
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bradley Webb" <bmwebb@cox.net>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 7:03 PM
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: sight glass fuel indicator?
>
>
>>
>> Lynn,
>>
>> The idea of using the threaded reducer is a very good one. One could
>> epoxy
>> that in place so it's would stay permanently. The only small issue
I
>> could
>> see is that the port will not be at the very bottom of the tank.
>>
>> Bradley
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-
>>> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 11:21 AM
>>> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: sight glass fuel indicator?
>>>
>>>
>>> Regarding thread stripping....if you drill and thread to 1/4"
NPT,
>>> and install 1/4 NPT-to-1/8 NPT reducing bushings, you'll only
have to
>>> install into the tank one time. I'd prefer this method to
tubing
>>> which is epoxied in place...too little mechanical grip with this
>>> method, but that's just me.
>>>
>>> Lynn Matteson
>>> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
>>> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 593hrs
>>> Sensenich 62x46
>>> flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire
ignition
>>> system;
>>> also building a new pair of snow skis
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Dec 6, 2008, at 8:26 AM, Bradley Webb wrote:
>>>
>>> >
>>> > James,
>>> > There's no need to thread anything into the fiberglass.
Drill holes
>>> > at the
>>> > very top and bottom, and epoxy in short aluminum tubes to
which you
>>> > will
>>> > attach the clear tubing. Threads suck in this application
most of
>>> > the time,
>>> > and they leak, get cross threaded easily, and will strip out
about
>>> > the third
>>> > time you pull the tubing off of them.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
________________________________ Message 5
_____________________________________
Time: 09:15:16 AM PST US
From: "Rick" <wingsdown@verizon.net>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: sight glass fuel indicator?
Not to offend any of the possible solutions offered, but If she were
mine I would just add a small fuel flow gage to the panel. You can put
the pick up in the fuel supply line. Several are offered and have many
advantages over just looking up to see what is left. Not that that is a
bad thing, far from it. But at this point in the finished state of the
aircraft it just makes more sense to me.
If you do decide to go with the sight tubes let me know and I will look
to see what I have laying around. Seems I was going to replace something
and had to buy the entire kit. If you do drill the fiberglass for
fittings might I suggest you do a bit of glass layer build up first. You
could also put in some nice permanent bushings to screw your tube
fittings in to.
Rick
________________________________ Message 6
_____________________________________
Time: 11:38:42 AM PST US
From: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: electrical wiring for Kitfox 1
At 07:41 PM 12/7/2008, you wrote:
>I believe I have a short in my wiring and am
>wondering if there is a wiring diagram for my
>plane. I recently installed a new battery and
>when I hooked it up the wire melted from the
>ignition all the way to the battery.
Jerry,
First, unless your plane came with one
you won't find a valid wiring diagram, as no two
Kitfoxes are the same in this regard. That said,
these planes are pretty simple so it should be
easy to diagnose. You obviously generated a dead
short, meaning you connected the battery positive
to negative with nearly no resistance, or load.
The most likely culprit is that a wire that
should have been connected to ground was
connected to hot, or some other missed
connection. The second would be a switch failure,
in which one of the terminals gets shorted to
ground. (This usually results in a high
resistance failure, melting the switch, not the wiring.)
Give us more details on the layout and
we'll try to help you diagnose from afar. (And if
you put your location in your signature, you
might find a local Kitfoxer with skills to help. ;-) )
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
________________________________ Message 7
_____________________________________
Time: 11:38:55 AM PST US
From: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: My Kitfox hit my car. What to look for damage wise?
At 02:46 PM 12/7/2008, you wrote:
>Ya know, if it wern't for bad luck I, I would have no luck at all.
Andrew! What the hell's goin' on!? At least you've got
your
priorities straight; not a word about your wife's car. ;-) Seriously
though, it sounds like you've proved the robustness of the Kitfox
once again. In general steel frames are very resilient, in that they
tend to bend, more than break. Therefore, if you can't see any
damage, then I doubt that any exists. One thing you didn't mention
was overall alignment- is the empennage straight? Are the stabs
parallel the wings? Is the rudder vertical? I not, you may have
twisted the entire fuselage, possibly bending one of the internal
diagonals. (Which you could see looking back from the baggage
compartment.) If not I'd say you got off easy. Good luck!
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
________________________________ Message 8
_____________________________________
Time: 12:35:29 PM PST US
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: My Kitfox hit my car. What to look for damage wise?
From: "815TL" <lawrenceaw@corning.com>
Guy Buchanan wrote:
> At 02:46 PM 12/7/2008, you wrote:
>
> > Ya know, if it wern't for bad luck I, I would have no luck at
all.
> >
> >
>
> Andrew! What the hell's goin' on!? At least you've
got your
> priorities straight; not a word about your wife's car. ;-) Seriously
> though, it sounds like you've proved the robustness of the Kitfox
> once again. In general steel frames are very resilient, in that they
> tend to bend, more than break. Therefore, if you can't see any
> damage, then I doubt that any exists. One thing you didn't mention
> was overall alignment- is the empennage straight? Are the stabs
> parallel the wings? Is the rudder vertical? I not, you may have
> twisted the entire fuselage, possibly bending one of the internal
> diagonals. (Which you could see looking back from the baggage
> compartment.) If not I'd say you got off easy. Good luck!
>
>
> Guy Buchanan
> San Diego, CA
> K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
You got me Guy. I have always had bad luck with things. About the only good
luck
I have had in the past few years is 2 healthy children, and they found natural
gas under my property (a few bucks extra a month). Everything else I tocuh
seems to go bad. :(
I did not get to pull the tarp off and put the wings out it last night, as the
winds were still quite high. I am going to tonight and take a better look at
it. I don't think the fuse is twisted, it looks OK from what I could see.
I
could not tell if the tail and everthing was straight, but I should be able to
tonight. What had me worried the most was the horiz. stab. buing pushed up on
the one side. But like I said, there was no bent tubeing, or wrinkles that
I could see.
The wives van did not fair too bad. A couple of scuffs on the hood, and a
little
red paint from the plane. She was not too happy, but understanding.
I will let you all know what it looks like tonight when I get the wings out.
Andrew
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=218277#218277
________________________________ Message 9
_____________________________________
Time: 12:39:39 PM PST US
From: "Paul Morel" <pmorel@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: sight glass fuel indicator?
Here's about the cheapest Fuel Flow system I found. I got it a little
cheaper at Oshkosh this past summer and it's going in my Speedster.
http://www.fdatasystems.com/
Paul Morel
Model IV Speedster
Locust Grove, GA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick" <wingsdown@verizon.net>
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 12:13 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: sight glass fuel indicator?
>
> Not to offend any of the possible solutions offered, but If she were
> mine I would just add a small fuel flow gage to the panel. You can put
> the pick up in the fuel supply line. Several are offered and have many
> advantages over just looking up to see what is left. Not that that is a
> bad thing, far from it. But at this point in the finished state of the
> aircraft it just makes more sense to me.
>
> If you do decide to go with the sight tubes let me know and I will look
> to see what I have laying around. Seems I was going to replace something
> and had to buy the entire kit. If you do drill the fiberglass for
> fittings might I suggest you do a bit of glass layer build up first. You
> could also put in some nice permanent bushings to screw your tube
> fittings in to.
>
>
> Rick
>
>
>
________________________________ Message 10
____________________________________
Time: 02:16:13 PM PST US
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: sight glass fuel indicator?
My two wing tanks feed the header tank, which, when full, fills up
the low fuel indicator tank and then back up to the right wing tank.
As long as I've got no yellow light on, I'm good for at least 15
minutes flight. But when I know I'm low on fuel, I'll glance at the
clear line between the low fuel indicator tank and the right wing,
and if it starts to show air instead of fuel, then I've got a heads-
up that the yellow (low fuel) light will soon glow, indicating that
I've got 15 minutes to find fuel or go into the low-wing method of
transferring fuel to the header tank. It's a lot less scary than it
sounds!
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 593hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
do not archive
On Dec 8, 2008, at 7:21 AM, Bradley Webb wrote:
>
> BTW, I slip to feed the header in the exact same way. But my fuel
> system is
> designed to detect header feed and level, not so much fuel level in
> the
> tanks.
>
> Bradley
>> As far as getting it right down to the bottom of the tank, remember
>> this is only for a sight gauge, so not being able to visibly read the
>> very last drop of fuel would be a good thing...you'd be landing
for a
>> fill-up before you got into an emergency situation (said the guy who
>> flies with one wing low so the other can feed his header tank, and
>> thereby make it to the next stop) : )
>>
>> Lynn
________________________________ Message 11
____________________________________
Time: 02:45:21 PM PST US
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox mishap in Colorado
Just what I was thinking.... One other thing scrap the idea of putting on
an IFA prop.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox mishap in Colorado
And if you do that, you'll have just lost a lot of potential buyers
in the Sport Pilot category...IF you should ever decide to sell the
plane.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 593hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Dec 6, 2008, at 5:59 PM, JetPilot wrote:
>
> Guy is correct, being an experimental airplane, the builder can
> make the gross weight anything we wants....
>
> I am going to have a gross weight of 2000 pounds on my Kitfox, just
> so that no one can ever ever accuse me of flying overweight should
> something happen :)
>
> --------
> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast
> as you could have !!!
>
> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217956#217956
>
>
________________________________ Message 12
____________________________________
Time: 03:23:24 PM PST US
From: patrick reilly <patreilly43@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: sight glass fuel indicator?
Lynn=2C Please explain the "low wing method". Thanks.
Pat reilly
Mod 3582 Rebuild
Rockford=2C IL> From: lynnmatt@jps.net> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: sight
gla
ss fuel indicator?> Date: Mon=2C 8 Dec 2008 17:15:28 -0500> To:
kitfox-list
t@jps.net>> > My two wing tanks feed the header tank=2C which=2C when
full
=2C fills up > the low fuel indicator tank and then back up to the right wi
ng tank. > As long as I've got no yellow light on=2C I'm good for at
least
15 > minutes flight. But when I know I'm low on fuel=2C I'll glance
at the
> clear line between the low fuel indicator tank and the right wing=2C >
an
d if it starts to show air instead of fuel=2C then I've got a heads- >
up t
hat the yellow (low fuel) light will soon glow=2C indicating that > I've
go
t 15 minutes to find fuel or go into the low-wing method of > transferring
fuel to the header tank. It's a lot less scary than it > sounds!>
> Lynn Ma
tteson> Kitfox IV Speedster=2C taildragger> Jabiru 2200=2C #2062=2C
593hrs>
Sensenich 62x46> flying again after rebuild=2C and new Electroair direct-f
ire ignition > system=3B> also building a new pair of snow skis> do
not arc
hive> > > > On Dec 8=2C 2008=2C at 7:21 AM=2C Bradley Webb
wrote:> > > -->
Kitfox-List message posted by: "Bradley Webb"
<bmwebb@cox.net>> >> > BTW=2C
I slip to feed the header in the exact same way. But my fuel > > system
is
> > designed to detect header feed and level=2C not so much fuel level in
>
> the> > tanks.> >> > Bradley> > > >> As
far as getting it right down to t
he bottom of the tank=2C remember> >> this is only for a sight
gauge=2C so
not being able to visibly read the> >> very last drop of fuel would be
a go
od thing...you'd be landing for a> >> fill-up before you got into
an emerge
ncy situation (said the guy who> >> flies with one wing low so the
other ca
n feed his header tank=2C and> >> thereby make it to the next stop) :
)> >>
===================> > >
________________________________ Message 13
____________________________________
Time: 07:14:03 PM PST US
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: sight glass fuel indicator?
Well, if you've got fuel tanks in both wings, by banking the plane
slightly, the fuel in the upper wing tank will flow toward the outlet
of that tank (if the outlet is on the inner wall of the tank...that
is, the side of the tank closest to the center of the plane), and
flow downward, helping to fill the header tank. If one of your tanks
empties faster than the other, this is a good way to insure that the
fuel in the most-full tank will flow into the header tank. This is
just a semi-emergency method of getting the normally "unusable fuel"
in the tank to flow into the header tank. You can sometimes just fly
with the nose slightly elevated and wings level if you need to get
those last few drops out of the tanks.
I'm not condoning these methods and by far the best thing to do is
have an adequate amount of fuel on board in the first place, but I've
used these methods to actually fill the header tank and make the low-
fuel warning light go out, because at the point that this light (in
my system anyway) goes out, I know that I have a full header
tank...approx 1 gallon...and can fly for 15 more minutes, more than
enough for flying around the area where I fly, where there is usually
fuel within that amount of time. I would not push it this far in
unfamiliar territory. This is just a last chance effort to use the
fuel that you have aboard. I've practiced doing this, as I feel one
should know his or her plane well enough to know where the fuel is
going in the system and why it's going there, and how to make it go
where it doesn't want to...within reason.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 593hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Dec 8, 2008, at 6:22 PM, patrick reilly wrote:
> Lynn, Please explain the "low wing method". Thanks.
>
> Pat reilly
> Mod 3582 Rebuild
> Rockford, IL
>
> > From: lynnmatt@jps.net
> > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: sight glass fuel indicator?
> > Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 17:15:28 -0500
> > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> >
> >
> > My two wing tanks feed the header tank, which, when full, fills up
> > the low fuel indicator tank and then back up to the right wing tank.
> > As long as I've got no yellow light on, I'm good for at least
15
> > minutes flight. But when I know I'm low on fuel, I'll glance
at the
> > clear line between the low fuel indicator tank and the right wing,
> > and if it starts to show air instead of fuel, then I've got a
heads-
> > up that the yellow (low fuel) light will soon glow, indicating that
> > I've got 15 minutes to find fuel or go into the low-wing method
of
> > transferring fuel to the header tank. It's a lot less scary than
it
> > sounds!
> >
> > Lynn Matteson
> > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 593hrs
> > Sensenich 62x46
> > flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
> > system;
> > also building a new pair of snow skis
> > do not archive
> >
> >
> >
> > On Dec 8, 2008, at 7:21 AM, Bradley Webb wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > BTW, I slip to feed the header in the exact same way. But my
fuel
> > > system is
> > > designed to detect header feed and level, not so much fuel
> level in
> > > the
> > > tanks.
> > >
> > > Bradley
> >
> >
> > >> As far as getting it right down to the bottom of the tank,
> remember
> > >> this is only for a sight gauge, so not being able to visibly
> read the
> > >> very last drop of fuel would be a good thing...you'd be
> landing for a
> > >> fill-up before you got into an emergency situation (said the
> guy who
> > >> flies with one wing low so the other can feed his header
tank,
> and
> > >> thereby make it to the next stop) : )
> > >>
> >===================
> > _=====
> >
> >
> >
>
> ============================================================ _-
> ============================================================ _-
> ==========================================================
________________________________ Message 14
____________________________________
Time: 07:23:01 PM PST US
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: sight glass fuel indicator?
One more thing....I've got clear glass filters in my downlines from
my wing tanks to the header tank, and can also observe that these are
full (or not), and this helps me judge whether or not the fuel is
flowing. After the header tank is full, I can observe fuel flowing
upwards in the clear vent line that leads from the header tank
through the low-fuel warning tank (about 10 ounces), and upwards to
the upper reaches of the right wing tank. This is visual proof of 15
minutes more useable fuel left, and I can then level the plane and
fly towards fuel or a landing place.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 593hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Dec 8, 2008, at 6:22 PM, patrick reilly wrote:
> Lynn, Please explain the "low wing method". Thanks.
>
> Pat reilly
> Mod 3582 Rebuild
> Rockford, IL
>
> > From: lynnmatt@jps.net
> > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: sight glass fuel indicator?
> > Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 17:15:28 -0500
> > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> >
> >
> > My two wing tanks feed the header tank, which, when full, fills up
> > the low fuel indicator tank and then back up to the right wing tank.
> > As long as I've got no yellow light on, I'm good for at least
15
> > minutes flight. But when I know I'm low on fuel, I'll glance
at the
> > clear line between the low fuel indicator tank and the right wing,
> > and if it starts to show air instead of fuel, then I've got a
heads-
> > up that the yellow (low fuel) light will soon glow, indicating that
> > I've got 15 minutes to find fuel or go into the low-wing method
of
> > transferring fuel to the header tank. It's a lot less scary than
it
> > sounds!
> >
> > Lynn
________________________________ Message 15
____________________________________
Time: 07:26:00 PM PST US
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: sight glass fuel indicator?
From: gary.algate@sandvik.com
Lynn if you fly inverted for a short period you can squeeze out another
2.5 minutes!
Hardy Har Har Har
Gary Algate
Classic 4 Jab 2200
This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees.
Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by
persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If
you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by
telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender
does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of
this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
?This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have
made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe and happy
Christmas".
Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
09/12/2008 01:50 PM
Please respond to
kitfox-list@matronics.com
To
kitfox-list@matronics.com
cc
Subject
Re: Kitfox-List: sight glass fuel indicator?
Well, if you've got fuel tanks in both wings, by banking the plane
slightly, the fuel in the upper wing tank will flow toward the outlet
of that tank (if the outlet is on the inner wall of the tank...that
is, the side of the tank closest to the center of the plane), and
flow downward, helping to fill the header tank. If one of your tanks
empties faster than the other, this is a good way to insure that the
fuel in the most-full tank will flow into the header tank. This is
just a semi-emergency method of getting the normally "unusable fuel"
in the tank to flow into the header tank. You can sometimes just fly
with the nose slightly elevated and wings level if you need to get
those last few drops out of the tanks.
I'm not condoning these methods and by far the best thing to do is
have an adequate amount of fuel on board in the first place, but I've
used these methods to actually fill the header tank and make the low-
fuel warning light go out, because at the point that this light (in
my system anyway) goes out, I know that I have a full header
tank...approx 1 gallon...and can fly for 15 more minutes, more than
enough for flying around the area where I fly, where there is usually
fuel within that amount of time. I would not push it this far in
unfamiliar territory. This is just a last chance effort to use the
fuel that you have aboard. I've practiced doing this, as I feel one
should know his or her plane well enough to know where the fuel is
going in the system and why it's going there, and how to make it go
where it doesn't want to...within reason.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 593hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Dec 8, 2008, at 6:22 PM, patrick reilly wrote:
> Lynn, Please explain the "low wing method". Thanks.
>
> Pat reilly
> Mod 3582 Rebuild
> Rockford, IL
>
> > From: lynnmatt@jps.net
> > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: sight glass fuel indicator?
> > Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 17:15:28 -0500
> > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> >
> >
> > My two wing tanks feed the header tank, which, when full, fills up
> > the low fuel indicator tank and then back up to the right wing tank.
> > As long as I've got no yellow light on, I'm good for at least
15
> > minutes flight. But when I know I'm low on fuel, I'll glance
at the
> > clear line between the low fuel indicator tank and the right wing,
> > and if it starts to show air instead of fuel, then I've got a
heads-
> > up that the yellow (low fuel) light will soon glow, indicating that
> > I've got 15 minutes to find fuel or go into the low-wing method
of
> > transferring fuel to the header tank. It's a lot less scary than
it
> > sounds!
> >
> > Lynn Matteson
> > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 593hrs
> > Sensenich 62x46
> > flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
> > system;
> > also building a new pair of snow skis
> > do not archive
> >
> >
> >
> > On Dec 8, 2008, at 7:21 AM, Bradley Webb wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > BTW, I slip to feed the header in the exact same way. But my
fuel
> > > system is
> > > designed to detect header feed and level, not so much fuel
> level in
> > > the
> > > tanks.
> > >
> > > Bradley
> >
> >
> > >> As far as getting it right down to the bottom of the tank,
> remember
> > >> this is only for a sight gauge, so not being able to visibly
> read the
> > >> very last drop of fuel would be a good thing...you'd be
> landing for a
> > >> fill-up before you got into an emergency situation (said the
> guy who
> > >> flies with one wing low so the other can feed his header
tank,
> and
> > >> thereby make it to the next stop) : )
> > >>
> >===================
> > =5F=====
> >
> >
> >
>
> =======================
=========== =5F-
> =======================
=========== =5F-
> =======================
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==========
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Message 2
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|
| Subject: | Re: Kitfox mishap in Colorado |
I understand about adjusting the gross weight to anything that you want. My
question is, what types of dynamic loads can the airframe and wings sustain
without damage in: calm air, turbulence, etc. if the aircraft has had it's
gross weight increased. There are mechanical properties to address when one
over grosses an aircraft. These are my concerns.
I know that aerodynamics change considerably (i.e. stall speeds, C.G.,
weight and balance) which in turn make the aircraft perform differently as
well.
To my point, if one increases the gross weight, or overloads a Kitfox IV by
100 pounds, will there be structural damage incurred outside of calm air?
Thanks,
Kirk
On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 4:44 PM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
> Just what I was thinking.... One other thing scrap the idea of putting on
> an IFA prop.
>
> Noel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 10:38 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox mishap in Colorado
>
>
> And if you do that, you'll have just lost a lot of potential buyers
> in the Sport Pilot category...IF you should ever decide to sell the
> plane.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 593hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
> system;
> also building a new pair of snow skis
>
>
> On Dec 6, 2008, at 5:59 PM, JetPilot wrote:
>
> >
> > Guy is correct, being an experimental airplane, the builder can
> > make the gross weight anything we wants....
> >
> > I am going to have a gross weight of 2000 pounds on my Kitfox, just
> > so that no one can ever ever accuse me of flying overweight should
> > something happen :)
> >
> > --------
> > "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast
> > as you could have !!!
> >
> > Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217956#217956
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | sight glass fuel indicator? |
Fuel flow gauges are great. I have one on my panel and it provides alot of
information you won't get from a sight tube. What it won't tell you tho is
how much fuel is actually in the tanks. Fuel leaking out into the slipstrea
m through a loose or missing cap (or in my experience an open header tank v
ent valve) does not register on the flow gauge but is every bit as "gone."
It's no substitute for an accurate-measure of what's really in the tanks.
-
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1
--- On Mon, 12/8/08, Rick <wingsdown@verizon.net> wrote:
From: Rick <wingsdown@verizon.net>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: sight glass fuel indicator?
<wingsdown@verizon.net>
Not to offend any of the possible solutions offered, but If she were
mine I would just add a small fuel flow gage to the panel. You can put
the pick up in the fuel supply line. Several are offered and have many
advantages over just looking up to see what is left. Not that that is a
bad thing, far from it. But at this point in the finished state of the
aircraft it just makes more sense to me.
If you do decide to go with the sight tubes let me know and I will look
to see what I have laying around. Seems I was going to replace something
and had to buy the entire kit. If you do drill the fiberglass for
fittings might I suggest you do a bit of glass layer build up first. You
could also put in some nice permanent bushings to screw your tube
fittings in to.
Rick
=0A=0A=0A
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: sight glass fuel indicator? |
Damn! If it wasn't crappy weather here, I'd be out trying
that...thanks for the tip, Gary....hey wait a minute, you guys from
"down under" get to fly inverted all the time right? : )
(kids, don't try this at home...these comments were made by trained
professional bee-essers)
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 593hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
do not archive
On Dec 8, 2008, at 10:24 PM, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote:
>
> Lynn if you fly inverted for a short period you can squeeze out
> another 2.5 minutes!
>
>
> Hardy Har Har Har
>
> Gary Algate
> Classic 4 Jab 2200
>
> This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the
> addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of
> this message by persons or entities other than the intended
> recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error,
> kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the
> message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for
> any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may
> arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
> This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we
> have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe
> and happy Christmas".
>
>
> Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> 09/12/2008 01:50 PM
> Please respond to
> kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
> To
> kitfox-list@matronics.com
> cc
> Subject
> Re: Kitfox-List: sight glass fuel indicator?
>
>
>
> Well, if you've got fuel tanks in both wings, by banking the plane
> slightly, the fuel in the upper wing tank will flow toward the outlet
> of that tank (if the outlet is on the inner wall of the tank...that
> is, the side of the tank closest to the center of the plane), and
> flow downward, helping to fill the header tank. If one of your tanks
> empties faster than the other, this is a good way to insure that the
> fuel in the most-full tank will flow into the header tank. This is
> just a semi-emergency method of getting the normally "unusable fuel"
> in the tank to flow into the header tank. You can sometimes just fly
> with the nose slightly elevated and wings level if you need to get
> those last few drops out of the tanks.
>
> I'm not condoning these methods and by far the best thing to do is
> have an adequate amount of fuel on board in the first place, but I've
> used these methods to actually fill the header tank and make the low-
> fuel warning light go out, because at the point that this light (in
> my system anyway) goes out, I know that I have a full header
> tank...approx 1 gallon...and can fly for 15 more minutes, more than
> enough for flying around the area where I fly, where there is usually
> fuel within that amount of time. I would not push it this far in
> unfamiliar territory. This is just a last chance effort to use the
> fuel that you have aboard. I've practiced doing this, as I feel one
> should know his or her plane well enough to know where the fuel is
> going in the system and why it's going there, and how to make it go
> where it doesn't want to...within reason.
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 593hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
> system;
> also building a new pair of snow skis
>
>
> On Dec 8, 2008, at 6:22 PM, patrick reilly wrote:
>
> > Lynn, Please explain the "low wing method". Thanks.
> >
> > Pat reilly
> > Mod 3582 Rebuild
> > Rockford, IL
> >
> > > From: lynnmatt@jps.net
> > > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: sight glass fuel indicator?
> > > Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 17:15:28 -0500
> > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> > >
> <lynnmatt@jps.net>
> > >
> > > My two wing tanks feed the header tank, which, when full, fills up
> > > the low fuel indicator tank and then back up to the right wing
> tank.
> > > As long as I've got no yellow light on, I'm good for at least 15
> > > minutes flight. But when I know I'm low on fuel, I'll glance at
> the
> > > clear line between the low fuel indicator tank and the right wing,
> > > and if it starts to show air instead of fuel, then I've got a
> heads-
> > > up that the yellow (low fuel) light will soon glow, indicating
> that
> > > I've got 15 minutes to find fuel or go into the low-wing method of
> > > transferring fuel to the header tank. It's a lot less scary
> than it
> > > sounds!
> > >
> > > Lynn Matteson
> > > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> > > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 593hrs
> > > Sensenich 62x46
> > > flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire
> ignition
> > > system;
> > > also building a new pair of snow skis
> > > do not archive
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Dec 8, 2008, at 7:21 AM, Bradley Webb wrote:
> > >
> <bmwebb@cox.net>
> > > >
> > > > BTW, I slip to feed the header in the exact same way. But my
> fuel
> > > > system is
> > > > designed to detect header feed and level, not so much fuel
> > level in
> > > > the
> > > > tanks.
> > > >
> > > > Bradley
> > >
> > >
> > > >> As far as getting it right down to the bottom of the tank,
> > remember
> > > >> this is only for a sight gauge, so not being able to visibly
> > read the
> > > >> very last drop of fuel would be a good thing...you'd be
> > landing for a
> > > >> fill-up before you got into an emergency situation (said the
> > guy who
> > > >> flies with one wing low so the other can feed his header tank,
> > and
> > > >> thereby make it to the next stop) : )
> > > >>
> > >====================
> > > _======
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > =================================== _-
> > =================================== _-
> > ==================================
>
>
> ===========================================================
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: My Kitfox hit my car. What to look for damage wise? |
So I pulled the tarp off it last night and unfolded the wings. Everything looks
good, it does not look twisted or anything. The horiz. stab. looks level with
the wing, sna the vertical looks good. So other than the small hole I need
to patch and a couple of scuff marks to repaint, I guess everything is OK.
I got lucky. :)
Andrew
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=218476#218476
Message 6
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| Subject: | sight glass fuel indicator? |
Guys,
A number of comments on this topic indicated a number of Kitfoxes did
not have fuel quantity indicators for their wing tanks. I didn't think
it was possible to get an air worthiness certificate if each fuel tank
did not have some sort of fuel quantity indicator.
Joe Connell
Kitfox-II, 582 C-Drive, Warp Drive Prop
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox mishap in Colorado |
I may be coming in on this a bit late. But, the fact that someone
decides to change or make the gross weight of an aircraft to some number
they have in mind has no relevance to the design limits of the airframe.
I think you most likely knew this but some may not. The wings are tested
to failure along with other components of the airframe. Based on testing
and equations beyond my ability to use the limits are set. It is never
a good idea to fly over gross. Some do with the false sense of security
that a margin of safety is factored into the limits set. Testing is
surely done in the air , though I doubt seriously that any are done
intentionally with the idea in mind they will see when the wings will
fold or flutter destroys the airframe. Not that is has not possibly
occurred.
The whole topic is rather broad for sure. Staying with in the design
limits for gross weight, G loads , and airspeeds is important for
survival. At least I think so. If you are at the edge of Vne in smooth
air and hit that invisible bump, well hope you make it.
One of the best books I ever read on flying is called Stick and Rudder.
It helps one to understand what is really going on with our aircraft in
that invisible ocean of air.
Rick
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox mishap in Colorado |
My concern is a bit more down to earth. As manufacturer of your airplane
you are aware of what the plane can physically handle... It may be able to
lift 1500 lb in calm air with no problems but don't try it in 10 or 15 mph
gusts at that weight. As the builder you should be aware of that.
But!
As manufacturer of the aircraft you and even your estate are responsible for
the safety of any one flying your plane. This means anyone who may buy the
plane from you in five or so years and fly according to your weight
limitations. Imagine, if you will, in ten years time your pride and joy has
been sold twice. The first sale was to a friend at the airfield who helped
you build the plane... He knows just about as much about that plane as you
do. Three years later he sells the plane to a flight school that wants a
cheap plane for pilots to build time on their licenses. Some day in early
July a student and an instructor attempt a straight stall and have the wings
fold around their ears because they had a takeoff weight of 1800lb. and
happened to hit a gust while recovering from the stall. Guess who is
responsible for those two deaths even ten years after selling the plane...
you are still the manufacturer. You will be held responsible.
If anything I'd rate the plane below design specifications or only sell it
as parts.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kitfoxkirk
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 10:09 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox mishap in Colorado
I understand about adjusting the gross weight to anything that you want. My
question is, what types of dynamic loads can the airframe and wings sustain
without damage in: calm air, turbulence, etc. if the aircraft has had it's
gross weight increased. There are mechanical properties to address when one
over grosses an aircraft. These are my concerns.
I know that aerodynamics change considerably (i.e. stall speeds, C.G.,
weight and balance) which in turn make the aircraft perform differently as
well.
To my point, if one increases the gross weight, or overloads a Kitfox IV by
100 pounds, will there be structural damage incurred outside of calm air?
Thanks,
Kirk
On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 4:44 PM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca> wrote:
Just what I was thinking.... One other thing scrap the idea of putting on
an IFA prop.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox mishap in Colorado
And if you do that, you'll have just lost a lot of potential buyers
in the Sport Pilot category...IF you should ever decide to sell the
plane.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 593hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Dec 6, 2008, at 5:59 PM, JetPilot wrote:
>
> Guy is correct, being an experimental airplane, the builder can
> make the gross weight anything we wants....
>
> I am going to have a gross weight of 2000 pounds on my Kitfox, just
> so that no one can ever ever accuse me of flying overweight should
> something happen :)
>
> --------
> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast
> as you could have !!!
>
> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217956#217956
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox mishap in Colorado |
When I was a kid and used to fly a lot with my father in his C-170 B on
floats our normal takeoff weight was about fifty pounds over gross. I flew
for several years before I found out that the tails of the floats should not
be under the water while taxiing.
What he really needed was a bigger plane. A C185 might have served him
better. When he went hunting in the fall he hired a DHC-2 beaver to fly him
and his party into the hunting lodge and they would return ten days later to
fly him out.
The plane is still registered in Canada.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:32 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox mishap in Colorado
I may be coming in on this a bit late. But, the fact that someone decides to
change or make the gross weight of an aircraft to some number they have in
mind has no relevance to the design limits of the airframe. I think you most
likely knew this but some may not. The wings are tested to failure along
with other components of the airframe. Based on testing and equations beyond
my ability to use the limits are set. It is never a good idea to fly over
gross. Some do with the false sense of security that a margin of safety is
factored into the limits set. Testing is surely done in the air , though I
doubt seriously that any are done intentionally with the idea in mind they
will see when the wings will fold or flutter destroys the airframe. Not that
is has not possibly occurred.
The whole topic is rather broad for sure. Staying with in the design limits
for gross weight, G loads , and airspeeds is important for survival. At
least I think so. If you are at the edge of Vne in smooth air and hit that
invisible bump, well hope you make it.
One of the best books I ever read on flying is called Stick and Rudder. It
helps one to understand what is really going on with our aircraft in that
invisible ocean of air.
Rick
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox mishap in Colorado |
Kirk, Let's say your Kitfox is good for 3.8 positive G's @ 1050 lbs.
You overload it (accidentally of course) by 100 lbs. Assuming the
balance is ok, the plane is now only good for 3.5 G's. Ok everybody,
flame away. (But be civil)
Pete
Kitfox III N73BH SN 1000 912 grove
----- Original Message -----
From: Kitfoxkirk
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 6:39 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox mishap in Colorado
I understand about adjusting the gross weight to anything that you
want. My question is, what types of dynamic loads can the airframe and
wings sustain without damage in: calm air, turbulence, etc. if the
aircraft has had it's gross weight increased. There are mechanical
properties to address when one over grosses an aircraft. These are my
concerns.
I know that aerodynamics change considerably (i.e. stall speeds, C.G.,
weight and balance) which in turn make the aircraft perform differently
as well.
To my point, if one increases the gross weight, or overloads a Kitfox
IV by 100 pounds, will there be structural damage incurred outside of
calm air?
Thanks,
Kirk
On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 4:44 PM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
<noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
Just what I was thinking.... One other thing scrap the idea of
putting on
an IFA prop.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn
Matteson
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 10:38 AM
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox mishap in Colorado
And if you do that, you'll have just lost a lot of potential buyers
in the Sport Pilot category...IF you should ever decide to sell the
plane.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 593hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Dec 6, 2008, at 5:59 PM, JetPilot wrote:
<orcabonita@hotmail.com>
>
> Guy is correct, being an experimental airplane, the builder can
> make the gross weight anything we wants....
>
> I am going to have a gross weight of 2000 pounds on my Kitfox,
just
> so that no one can ever ever accuse me of flying overweight should
> something happen :)
>
> --------
> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast
> as you could have !!!
>
> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217956#217956
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | first flight on skis this year |
Hi all=2C well I put new skis on the plane yesterday=2C finished the bunge
es for them today. We have about 6" of snow on the ground with more on the
way so I taxied a bit=2C and then poured the coals to it and commited avia
tion. I love flying in the winter! Landed at a local lake=2C couldn't tel
l when I was on the ground (lake) it was so smooooooth. Of course no one
there to see it! Had to get back to help the wife start supper as she was
n't feeling very good so had just a 40 minute flight=2C but it was nice. T
emps were about +8 F but the heater helped and I was fine. Take care all
=2C Jim Chuk Avid MK IV Jabiru northern Mn
_________________________________________________________________
Send e-mail anywhere. No map=2C no compass.
http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_anyw
here_122008
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: first flight on skis this year |
Well, ya beat me to posting, but I got my first ski flight last
Friday, Jim. I flew to a couple of nearby grass airports with a
pretty good south wind. I landed so slow and short at Brooklyn,
Michigan, (6G8) that when I took off, I just had to turn back and
look at my tracks. The wind was so strong, that it helped me do a
*real healthy* wingover bank. I figured it was time to put it away,
and headed for home....122 mph ground speed with 90 airspeed. Had to
land with this wind....quite a bit less at ground level...coming
directly from my left, but not a problem. On Sunday, I made a 1.3
hour day of it, landing at 5 different snow-flecked grass
strips...not enough snow to warrant my "wheels-penetrate-too-far-
skis" , but too much for just wheels. Work continues on my new skis,
with bending/laminating tests underway on Okoume plywood for the
bottoms, and the learning of TIG-welding starting today. I just
bought a Miller Diversion 165 TIG machine, and am brushing up/
learning this skill.
By the way, Jim, the prop came in, and it's a beauty. I got the old
one off, drilled the prop bushings out to 5/16" as well as the crush
plate, and it's ready to install. Our snow pretty much went away
today as a result of all day rain, but there's cold coming, and more
precip.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 593hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Dec 9, 2008, at 5:55 PM, Jim_and_Lucy Chuk wrote:
> Hi all, well I put new skis on the plane yesterday, finished the
> bungees for them today. We have about 6" of snow on the ground
> with more on the way so I taxied a bit, and then poured the coals
> to it and commited aviation. I love flying in the winter! Landed
> at a local lake, couldn't tell when I was on the ground (lake) it
> was so smooooooth. Of course no one there to see it! Had to get
> back to help the wife start supper as she wasn't feeling very good
> so had just a 40 minute flight, but it was nice. Temps were about
> +8 F but the heater helped and I was fine. Take care all, Jim
> Chuk Avid MK IV Jabiru northern Mn
> Send e-mail anywhere. No map, no compass. Get your Hotmail account
> ============================================================ _-
> ============================================================ _-
> ===========================================================
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: first flight on skis this year |
Hey, Jim, what size are your skis? The ones I'm building are going to
be about 600 sq. inches for each ski, unless somebody talks me out of
that large a size. My present skis are about 470 sq. inches. I'm
building these so that the wheel doesn't penetrate so far and cause
so much drag. I'm also making them so that no lifting of the plane is
necessary to install, and no ski area right behind the wheel so no
"cheese slicer" action will take place. I'm hoping this design will
allow for less drag, and more staying on top of the snow, instead of
submarining below it. Mine will be 4130 tubing with plywood bottoms
and nylon-ish wear bars. Eventually I'm going to make some fiberglass
tops to enclose the tubing and provide a smooth upper surface so the
snow won't accumulate there. That will be a vacuum bagging operation,
which I'm also going to build and learn on.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 593hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Dec 9, 2008, at 5:55 PM, Jim_and_Lucy Chuk wrote:
> Hi all, well I put new skis on the plane yesterday, finished the
> bungees for them today. We have about 6" of snow on the ground
> with more on the way so I taxied a bit, and then poured the coals
> to it and commited aviation. I love flying in the winter! Landed
> at a local lake, couldn't tell when I was on the ground (lake) it
> was so smooooooth. Of course no one there to see it! Had to get
> back to help the wife start supper as she wasn't feeling very good
> so had just a 40 minute flight, but it was nice. Temps were about
> +8 F but the heater helped and I was fine. Take care all, Jim
> Chuk Avid MK IV Jabiru northern Mn
> Send e-mail anywhere. No map, no compass. Get your Hotmail account
> ============================================================ _-
> ============================================================ _-
> ===========================================================
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: sight glass fuel indicator? |
This might seem petty, but all of you who are using the header tank as a low fuel
indicator might be pressing your luck it seems. VFR minimum reserve is 20
minutes for planning purposes. You should always arrive with 20 minutes of fuel
in your tank, not shortly after the 15 minute light comes on. So if you fly
to another airport and anywhere in the flight start having these fuel concerns
then that is proof of a very bad planning process, and god forbid anything
happen I would call that a contributing factor. But I guess you could plan on
always hanging out within 5-10 minutes of fuel and that is a pretty small playground.
I really don't care how much trouble it is to get sight glasses installed, to me
it only makes sense. Again I really appreciate all the info, thanks for the
help guys. :D
--------
Prospective Kitfox buyer
Here for information on airframes and engines
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=218575#218575
Message 15
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| Subject: | sight glass fuel indicator? |
Well, unless you paint the tanks, you can see the fuel in there at anytime.
Bradley
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joe & Jan
Connell
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 10:57 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: sight glass fuel indicator?
Guys,
A number of comments on this topic indicated a number of Kitfoxes did not
have fuel quantity indicators for their wing tanks. I didn't think it was
possible to get an air worthiness certificate if each fuel tank did not have
some sort of fuel quantity indicator.
Joe Connell
Kitfox-II, 582 C-Drive, Warp Drive Prop
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: first flight on skis this year |
Mine are 13.5 X 60... 810 squares. In deep powder you want all you can get!
I got mine installed a few days ago, but 40 mph winds and heavy freezing fog kept
me grounded for the last few days. Now it is off to work so it will be a couple
weeks before I get to try them out.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=218585#218585
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: sight glass fuel indicator? |
Well, I for one, do NOT use my header tank for a low fuel indicator.
I use a low fuel indicator, which, when it comes on, lets me know
that I have 15 minutes of fuel remaining in the header tank. This
low-fuel indicator is mounted above the header tank, and as such,
empties first, giving the 15-minute warning. But I also have sight
gauges in each tank which is my PRIMARY method of knowing how much
fuel is in each tank.
So to summarize, I see the remaining fuel in each wing tank first,
the low-fuel warning next, and the header still has 15 minutes of
fuel left. If a person is any more paranoid than that, they need to
find another pastime.
I got my wing-tank fuel indicators at John McBean's aftermarket sales
before it became "www.kitfoxaircraft.com"...as should you all. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 593hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Dec 9, 2008, at 8:43 PM, WurlyBird wrote:
> <james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil>
>
> This might seem petty, but all of you who are using the header tank
> as a low fuel indicator might be pressing your luck it seems. VFR
> minimum reserve is 20 minutes for planning purposes. You should
> always arrive with 20 minutes of fuel in your tank, not shortly
> after the 15 minute light comes on. So if you fly to another
> airport and anywhere in the flight start having these fuel concerns
> then that is proof of a very bad planning process, and god forbid
> anything happen I would call that a contributing factor. But I
> guess you could plan on always hanging out within 5-10 minutes of
> fuel and that is a pretty small playground.
>
> I really don't care how much trouble it is to get sight glasses
> installed, to me it only makes sense. Again I really appreciate
> all the info, thanks for the help guys. :D
>
> --------
> Prospective Kitfox buyer
> Here for information on airframes and engines
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=218575#218575
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: sight glass fuel indicator? |
James sez:
>...all of you who are using the header tank as a low fuel indicator
>might be pressing your luck it seems. VFR minimum reserve is 20
>minutes for planning purposes.
FAR 91.151 requires airplanes to carry 30 minutes of reserve fuel
(beyond the point of intended landing) for daytime VFR flights and 45
minutes at night (at normal cruise speeds). This is a flight
planning requirement and has nothing to do with the fuel level
indication system or any kind of on-board reserve tanking capability.
The 20 minute value applies only to rotorcraft operating in VFR
conditions (probably where you are coming from).
Interestingly, FAR 23.1337 places requirements on fuel quantity
indicators (must be clearly visible to the crew, must read "zero"
when the quantity is equal to the unusable fuel supply, etc.) but
doesn't actually require they be installed.
>You should always arrive with 20 minutes of fuel in your tank, not
>shortly after the 15 minute light comes on.
Having a warning system in the airplane that lets you know when you
have 15 minutes of fuel left still has value, even if you have
properly planned your flight with the required reserves.
>I really don't care how much trouble it is to get sight glasses
>installed, to me it only makes sense.
I agree that having a fuel quantity indication is very valuable but
that does not invalidate the fallback of instrumenting the header
tank. My 'fox had sight gauges, a low fuel sensor in the header
tank, and a fuel totalizer and the new one will have all three also.
Mike G.
N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster
Phoenix, AZ
Message 19
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| Subject: | sight glass fuel indicator? |
Bradley I think that they are talking about the header tank used with the
two wing tanks - this is located behind the seat
Gary
Gary Algate
Classic 4 jab 2200
This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees.
Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by
persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If
you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by
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?This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have
made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe and happy
Christmas".
"Bradley Webb" <bmwebb@cox.net>
Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
10/12/2008 01:11 PM
Please respond to
kitfox-list@matronics.com
To
<kitfox-list@matronics.com>
cc
Subject
RE: Kitfox-List: sight glass fuel indicator?
Well, unless you paint the tanks, you can see the fuel in there at
anytime.
Bradley
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joe & Jan
Connell
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 10:57 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: sight glass fuel indicator?
Guys,
A number of comments on this topic indicated a number of Kitfoxes did not
have fuel quantity indicators for their wing tanks. I didn't think it was
possible to get an air worthiness certificate if each fuel tank did not
have some sort of fuel quantity indicator.
Joe Connell
Kitfox-II, 582 C-Drive, Warp Drive Prop
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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Message 20
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| Subject: | first flight on skis this year |
Hi Lynn=2C my skis are 9" wide and 60" long. They are just straight skis
=2C not wheel penetration skis. I built them out of aluminum and the botto
ms are 3/16" UHMW plastic. I think they weigh about 10 or 12 lbs each. T
ake care=2C Jim Chuk Avid Mk IV Jabiru Mn > From: lynnmatt@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: first flight on skis this year> Date: Tue=2C 9 D
ec 2008 20:34:22 -0500> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com> > --> Kitfox-List me
ssage posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>> > Hey=2C Jim=2C what siz
e are your skis? The ones I'm building are going to > be about 600 sq. inch
es for each ski=2C unless somebody talks me out of > that large a size. My
present skis are about 470 sq. inches. I'm > building these so that the whe
el doesn't penetrate so far and cause > so much drag. I'm also making them
so that no lifting of the plane is > necessary to install=2C and no ski are
a right behind the wheel so no > "cheese slicer" action will take place. I'
m hoping this design will > allow for less drag=2C and more staying on top
of the snow=2C instead of > submarining below it. Mine will be 4130 tubing
with plywood bottoms > and nylon-ish wear bars. Eventually I'm going to mak
e some fiberglass > tops to enclose the tubing and provide a smooth upper s
urface so the > snow won't accumulate there. That will be a vacuum bagging
operation=2C > which I'm also going to build and learn on.> > Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster=2C taildragger> Jabiru 2200=2C #2062=2C 593hrs> Sense
nich 62x46> flying again after rebuild=2C and new Electroair direct-fire ig
nition > system=3B> also building a new pair of snow skis> > > > > On Dec 9
=2C 2008=2C at 5:55 PM=2C Jim_and_Lucy Chuk wrote:> > > Hi all=2C well I pu
t new skis on the plane yesterday=2C finished the > > bungees for them toda
y. We have about 6" of snow on the ground > > with more on the way so I tax
ied a bit=2C and then poured the coals > > to it and commited aviation. I l
ove flying in the winter! Landed > > at a local lake=2C couldn't tell when
I was on the ground (lake) it > > was so smooooooth. Of course no one there
to see it! Had to get > > back to help the wife start supper as she wasn't
feeling very good > > so had just a 40 minute flight=2C but it was nice. T
emps were about > > +8 F but the heater helped and I was fine. Take care al
l=2C Jim > > Chuk Avid MK IV Jabiru northern Mn> > Send e-mail anywhere. No
map=2C no compass. Get your Hotmail=AE account > > =======
=== _- > > ===================
================ _- > > ======
=====================> > >
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d_122008
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| Subject: | Acrylic Drill Bits |
Are there any list members in Australia who know where I could purchased
drill bits for drilling acrylic.
I have decided to bite the bullet and fit my LP Aero windscreen but can't
find the bits that I ordered for the job and nobody here in Adelaide
seems to know of the special bit angle required.
Regards
Gary
Gary Algate
Classic 4 Jab 2200
Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
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