---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 12/13/08: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:45 AM - Re: Re: Dead stick practice (Heinz Lang) 2. 06:28 AM - Re: Dead stick practice (Catz631@aol.com) 3. 07:39 AM - Re: Dead stick practice (Randy Daughenbaugh) 4. 08:24 AM - Re: Dead stick practice (Lynn Matteson) 5. 09:20 AM - Re: Dead stick practice (Roger Lee) 6. 09:31 AM - Re: Dead stick practice (Rex Hefferan) 7. 10:02 AM - Re: electrical problem continued (Peerenboom's) 8. 10:22 AM - Re: Dead stick practice (Michel Verheughe) 9. 10:39 AM - Re: Re: Dead stick practice (Rexinator) 10. 11:31 AM - Re: Re: Dead stick practice (Lynn Matteson) 11. 11:59 AM - Re: Dead stick practice (Michel Verheughe) 12. 01:54 PM - Re: Dead stick practice (gary.algate@sandvik.com) 13. 06:38 PM - Re: Dead stick practice (crazyivan) 14. 07:10 PM - Re: Re: Dead stick practice (patrick reilly) 15. 08:50 PM - Re: first flight on skis this year (akflyer) 16. 10:05 PM - Re: Re: Dead stick practice (Rexinator) 17. 10:45 PM - Re: Dead stick practice (Paul Franz - Merlin GT) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:45:08 AM PST US From: "Heinz Lang" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: RE: Dead stick practice Hi all I did record a glide without running engine and calculatet a ratio of 12. The weight of the aircraft was around 470kg. Heinz Lang Kitfox 4-1200, 582 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:28:46 AM PST US From: Catz631@aol.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Dead stick practice Lynn, I just have to say this (at the risk of being called an old lady )! Please don't practice dead stick landings. I had expected someone to already bring this up but it hasn't happened. Practicing deadsticks is a good way to smash your airplane into pieces. As an example we had a guy at our field (Navy student) who decided to practice an engine out in a Yankee(nice airplane) so he came over the field at high key, low key final and promptly crashed his airplane on the field. He was OK but the plane was totaled. If something happens enroute or you misjudge, or the engine doesn't start, you are screwed. I have had three dead sticks in my Kitfox. All occurred on final when the engine quit due to low idle rpm on my engine. I now have that resolved. This happened when I first bought the aircraft and I must admit it does glide good. The first dead stick (have had many since) for me was in a T-28 which occurred when the master rod broke at 3000 feet. I glided that one to NAS whiting field and landed 500 ft short of the runway on the grass. That airplane is now on static display. The military and flight schools have long given up actual dead stick landings as too many aircraft were destroyed. One more thing and I will leave you alone.( as I highly respect your writing) Glider training will absolutely help out a sport or any other pilot. You will learn more about your aircraft then you could have imagined and the training will apply to any aircraft! ( I even used it in flying P-3's over mountainous terrain and on approaches) There, I have said it and I am done. It would bother me if one of our new pilots decided to shut his engine down to glide around, misjudged and then crunched his airplane (besides, rapid cooling is not good on the engine) Dick Maddux Fox 4-1200 912UL Pensacola,Fl **************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. The NEW ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:39:14 AM PST US From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Dead stick practice Dick, I am glad you mention glider training. Gliders are safer than power planes and with gliders every landing is "Dead Stick". So it can't be that dead stick landing are inherently dangerous. All pilots should get some glider training. Randy _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Catz631@aol.com Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 7:29 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Dead stick practice Lynn, I just have to say this (at the risk of being called an old lady )! Please don't practice dead stick landings. I had expected someone to already bring this up but it hasn't happened. Practicing deadsticks is a good way to smash your airplane into pieces. As an example we had a guy at our field (Navy student) who decided to practice an engine out in a Yankee(nice airplane) so he came over the field at high key, low key final and promptly crashed his airplane on the field. He was OK but the plane was totaled. If something happens enroute or you misjudge, or the engine doesn't start, you are screwed. I have had three dead sticks in my Kitfox. All occurred on final when the engine quit due to low idle rpm on my engine. I now have that resolved. This happened when I first bought the aircraft and I must admit it does glide good. The first dead stick (have had many since) for me was in a T-28 which occurred when the master rod broke at 3000 feet. I glided that one to NAS whiting field and landed 500 ft short of the runway on the grass. That airplane is now on static display. The military and flight schools have long given up actual dead stick landings as too many aircraft were destroyed. One more thing and I will leave you alone.( as I highly respect your writing) Glider training will absolutely help out a sport or any other pilot. You will learn more about your aircraft then you could have imagined and the training will apply to any aircraft! ( I even used it in flying P-3's over mountainous terrain and on approaches) There, I have said it and I am done. It would bother me if one of our new pilots decided to shut his engine down to glide around, misjudged and then crunched his airplane (besides, rapid cooling is not good on the engine) Dick Maddux Fox 4-1200 912UL Pensacola,Fl _____ One site keeps you connected to all your emailw-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000019">The NEW AOL.com. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:24:55 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Dead stick practice I respect what you have to say, Dick, and I'll take it under advisement. Let's see what others have to say on the subject...and I'll also see what my flight instructor says when I tell him what I did. I know that 6 months ago, to maybe a year, there was a lot of talk here about *doing* them, and I thought the consensus was that it was a good thing. I know that at the time, I hadn't done any, and thought that at that time these guys were nuts...kinda like the old saying "why would you want to jump out of a perfectly good airplane?" (sky diving) Thanks for speaking up. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system; also building a new pair of snow skis On Dec 13, 2008, at 9:28 AM, Catz631@aol.com wrote: > Lynn, > I just have to say this (at the risk of being called an old > lady )! Please don't practice dead stick landings. I had expected > someone to already bring this up but it hasn't happened. Practicing > deadsticks is a good way to smash your airplane into pieces. As an > example we had a guy at our field (Navy student) who decided to > practice an engine out in a Yankee(nice airplane) so he came over > the field at high key, low key final and promptly crashed his > airplane on the field. He was OK but the plane was totaled. If > something happens enroute or you misjudge, or the engine doesn't > start, you are screwed. I have had three dead sticks in my Kitfox. > All occurred on final when the engine quit due to low idle rpm on > my engine. I now have that resolved. This happened when I first > bought the aircraft and I must admit it does glide good. The first > dead stick (have had many since) for me was in a T-28 which > occurred when the master rod broke at 3000 feet. I glided that one > to NAS whiting field and landed 500 ft short of the runway on the > grass. That airplane is now on static display. The military and > flight schools have long given up actual dead stick landings as too > many aircraft were destroyed. One more thing and I will leave you > alone.( as I highly respect your writing) Glider training will > absolutely help out a sport or any other pilot. You will learn more > about your aircraft then you could have imagined and the training > will apply to any aircraft! ( I even used it in flying P-3's over > mountainous terrain and on approaches) There, I have said it and I > am done. It would bother me if one of our new pilots decided to > shut his engine down to glide around, misjudged and then crunched > his airplane (besides, rapid cooling is not good on the engine) > Dick > Maddux > Fox > 4-1200 > 912UL > > Pensacola,Fl > > > One site keeps you connected to all your emailw- > dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000019">The NEW AOL.com. > =========================================================== ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:20:19 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Dead stick practice From: "Roger Lee" Hi Guys, In all my planes I practice full dead stick landings. You can do a dead stick in just about any aircraft within reason. What is going to happen when you loose an engine and on top of that you have to hit a specific landing spot? It will be Ouch time. Many CFI's are afraid of real dead stick landings because they have never done them. I always get a kick when I have a new CFI with me and turn off the engine. Talk about freaking out. The plane lands just like always and sometimes better for a lot of people. After you have done a few, the first is always harder on the nerves, but that goes away when you see how much control you really have, you should then practice hitting a spot on the field. Engine outs are never convenient over the field and you never seem to have a 4'K runway either. After a few dead sticks you may want to go up to an altitude like 8k-10K and turn off the engine and just glide around for a while. Learning dead stick landings can be the best thing you can do for yourself in case of an emergency and it can be fun. Start with doing them on final and you know you have the field made or go up high like 8K and glide around for a while, near a field, and then do a re-start just to get the feel of no engine maneuvering. Just remember to always keep at least landing approach speed until you are comfortable. I will go up, go dead stick and practice hard stalls and it is fun. Old time Ultralight guys are not afraid of dead sticks as it happened to everyone at one time or another in the old days. Now it's just fun. We used to put on games for the Ultrlight's and one of the events was to be dead stick when you turned final. These guys got so good that if you couldn't put your mains within 5' of a line you weren't in the top 3-5 finishers. -------- Roger Lee Tucson, Az. Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated Rotax Service Center 520-574-1080 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219217#219217 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:31:46 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Dead stick practice From: "Rex Hefferan" I feel I should clarify that my comments were intended to encourage getting glider training. I also cringe at the idea of trying to gain experience at dead stick flying before some proper training. One of the most important skills gliding teaches is understanding and managing your glide energy. Weather and air currents are about equally important and as a powered plane pilot you are not as concerned as you must be when gliding. Terrain features become another vital aspect of gliding that can be very helpful to powered flight. If nothing else, get a sailplane flight instruction book and study this wonderful realm of flight. Rex Colorado M2 582 -------- Rex N740GP - M2/582 Colorado Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219220#219220 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:02:03 AM PST US From: "Peerenboom's" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: electrical problem continued I'am in New London and have a Model IV 912 , I also have been an A & P for 30 years. Send me a number off the list that I can call you. Paul Model IV 912 350 TT ----- Original Message ----- From: jlno7@aim.com To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 10:32 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: electrical problem continued I investigated my electrical problem with my Kitfox1/2 further and found that the low gage wire that melted connects the battery to the master switch. It melted when I installed a new battery. I noticed that there was a similiar wire on the negative side of the battery that has been cut. My suspection is that there is a short in the system. This might have been caused when I had to remove the panel when I installed new rubber shocks. What is the purpose of ths wire? Can it be removed? Do I need to connect to both sides of the battery? How can I locate the short if there is one? Any help would be appreciated. jerry novak N299jk Pulaski Wisconsin novice electrician ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Listen to 350+ music, sports, & news radio stations =93 including songs for the holidays =93 FREE while you browse. Start Listening Now! ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:22:13 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Dead stick practice > From: Rex Hefferan [hefferans@gmail.com] > I feel I should clarify that my comments were intended to encourage getting > glider training. To that, I'd like to add that when my son started flying my taildragger Kitfox 3, he had about 50 hours in a Blanik glider and he mastered the Kitfox in no time. Glider training is really the best training. This being said, I do dead-stick landing but ... with a very good margin of security. The first time I did it was on a runway 8,500 ft long. I was already passed the threshold when I switched off the engine. Cheers, Michel Verheughe Norway Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... flying now as PAX
________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:39:30 AM PST US From: Rexinator Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Dead stick practice See, That's what I'm talking about! Michel knows how to do dead stick practice safely. :-) Rex Do not archive Michel Verheughe wrote: >> From: Rex Hefferan [hefferans@gmail.com] >> I feel I should clarify that my comments were intended to encourage getting >> glider training. >> > > To that, I'd like to add that when my son started flying my taildragger Kitfox 3, he had about 50 hours in a Blanik glider and he mastered the Kitfox in no time. Glider training is really the best training. This being said, I do dead-stick landing but ... with a very good margin of security. The first time I did it was on a runway 8,500 ft long. I was already passed the threshold when I switched off the engine. > > Cheers, > Michel Verheughe > Norway > Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... flying now as PAX ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:31:42 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Dead stick practice All due respect, Michel and Rex, what is there left to do once you've crossed the threshold? I say this with the understanding of the landing procedure that comes with nearly 600 hrs of flying and way over 1000 landings (I haven't totaled up my logbook in ages) I feel that the real skill in a dead stick landing comes from battling the winds aloft, if there are any, and getting the seat-of-the-pants feel, and three dimensional view of your world at say 500-1000 feet up. At least this is what I used in my (1) emergency dead stick last fall, and (2) my "pretend" emergency dead stick just the other day. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system; also building a new pair of snow skis On Dec 13, 2008, at 1:38 PM, Rexinator wrote: > > See, That's what I'm talking about! Michel knows how to do dead > stick practice safely. :-) > > Rex > Do not archive > > Michel Verheughe wrote: >>> From: Rex Hefferan [hefferans@gmail.com] I feel I should clarify >>> that my comments were intended to encourage getting glider training. >>> >> >> To that, I'd like to add that when my son started flying my >> taildragger Kitfox 3, he had about 50 hours in a Blanik glider and >> he mastered the Kitfox in no time. Glider training is really the >> best training. This being said, I do dead-stick landing but ... >> with a very good margin of security. The first time I did it was >> on a runway 8,500 ft long. I was already passed the threshold when >> I switched off the engine. >> >> Cheers, >> Michel Verheughe >> Norway >> Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... flying now as PAX > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:59:27 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Dead stick practice > From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt@jps.net] > All due respect, Michel and Rex, what is there left to do once you've > crossed the threshold? That was only the first time, Lynn. Now, I do it from long approach. But I agree with Rex that we should be careful and it's up to each pilot to know what is the frame of security. For example, I feel that if I voluntary switch off the engine, I should be able to land safely without needing to restart the engine. Most of the time, it will restart but ... you never know. A few weeks ago, I flew with my son and it was a typical winter inversion: no wind on the windsock. But once over 500 ft AGL, a strong northerly wind. We flew first southward at about 90 knots ground speed, and only 40 on the return leg. When we arrived on final 36, I said to my son: Aren't we a bit high? He said: not in that wind, we might even add a bit of throttle. And guess what, we needed it to reach the threshold! Something else I wanted to do is to fly over a very big lake we have here, switch off the engine at say 4,500 ft (under our TMA) and glide down, using the entire frozen lake as a landing place. But, unfortunately the lake hasn't been freezing enough those last years. Cheers, Michel Verheughe Norway Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... flying as PAX
________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:54:39 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Dead stick practice From: gary.algate@sandvik.com Hmm - not sure I agree with this one. However it depends upon location. When I was on Skis and lived on a lake in Canada I would switch of at about 3,00ft over the lake and glide around and practice my spot landings. It was great practice and i was amazed how far I was out when I first started. After a while it became very easy to control my descent and use slips etc to land "on the numbers". The only caveat here is I had basically unlimited area to land and if I landed long or short it made no difference I learned a lot from that! Gary Gary Algate SMC, Exploration Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. ?This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe and happy Christmas". Catz631@aol.com Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com 14/12/2008 01:05 AM Please respond to kitfox-list@matronics.com To kitfox-list@matronics.com cc Subject Re: Kitfox-List: Dead stick practice Lynn, I just have to say this (at the risk of being called an old lady )! Please don't practice dead stick landings. I had expected someone to already bring this up but it hasn't happened. Practicing deadsticks is a good way to smash your airplane into pieces. As an example we had a guy at our field (Navy student) who decided to practice an engine out in a Yankee(nice airplane) so he came over the field at high key, low key final and promptly crashed his airplane on the field. He was OK but the plane was totaled. If something happens enroute or you misjudge, or the engine doesn't start, you are screwed. I have had three dead sticks in my Kitfox. All occurred on final when the engine quit due to low idle rpm on my engine. I now have that resolved. This happened when I first bought the aircraft and I must admit it does glide good. The first dead stick (have had many since) for me was in a T-28 which occurred when the master rod broke at 3000 feet. I glided that one to NAS whiting field and landed 500 ft short of the runway on the grass. That airplane is now on static display. The military and flight schools have long given up actual dead stick landings as too many aircraft were destroyed. One more thing and I will leave you alone.( as I highly respect your writing) Glider training will absolutely help out a sport or any other pilot. You will learn more about your aircraft then you could have imagined and the training will apply to any aircraft! ( I even used it in flying P-3's over mountainous terrain and on approaches) There, I have said it and I am done. It would bother me if one of our new pilots decided to shut his engine down to glide around, misjudged and then crunched his airplane (besides, rapid cooling is not good on the engine) Dick Maddux Fox 4-1200 912UL Pensacola,Fl One site keeps you connected to all your emailw-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000019">The NEW AOL.co m. =5F-======================= =========== =5F- =5F-= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- =5F-= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) =5F- =5F-= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on =5F-= the Contribution link below to find out more about =5F-= this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts! =5F- =5F-= List Contribution Web Site: =5F- =5F-= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution =5F- =5F-= Thank you for your generous support! =5F- =5F-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. =5F- =5F-======================= =========== =5F-= - The Kitfox-List Email Forum - =5F-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse =5F-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, =5F-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, =5F-= Photoshare, and much much more: =5F- =5F-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List =5F- =5F-======================= =========== =5F-= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - =5F-= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! =5F- =5F-= --> http://forums.matronics.com =5F- =5F-======================= =========== ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:38:47 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Dead stick practice From: "crazyivan" The way I see it, any way you do it you are taking a risk. Lynn's practice is risky but he'll be well qualified to save himself, his passenger, and his aircraft when the engine decides to quit without a guaranteed landing strip within gliding distance. On the other hand, killing your perfectly good engine to practice a dead-stick is tempting fate if you are not trained and proficient. The catch-22 is if you can't do it under a controlled situation then you probably won't be able to when everything goes to hell. My only armchair quarterbacking of Lynn's practice is that I wouldn't do it on a 1700' field. I'd go with a 3000' or 4000' field and pick a point about 1000' down the runway to aim for. If I run out of energy then I'd still have room to safely land short. If I'm too fast then an extra 1000' or 2000' will come in handy. Great topic for discussion. Thanks Lynn. -------- Dave Speedster 912 UL Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219270#219270 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:10:45 PM PST US From: patrick reilly Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Dead stick practice Lynn=2C Do you usually slip in when dead sticking to keep plenty of speed. If your gliding in from a distance at a slow speed and misjudge=2C you can run out of energy. 1700' might not sound like alot of runway. But=2C with a plane that can be landed in a few hundred feet=2C 1700' is quite a long f ield as long as your using the whole runway. Most of my flight has been in an ultralite that stalled at 19 mph. You never worried about not enough run way. As a matter of fact=2C you could do as many touch and goes on 1 landin g as you wanted to on almost any field. Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford=2C IL > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Dead stick practice> From: dmive zic@yahoo.com> Date: Sat=2C 13 Dec 2008 18:38:07 -0800> To: kitfox-list@mat o.com>> > The way I see it=2C any way you do it you are taking a risk. > > Lynn's practice is risky but he'll be well qualified to save himself=2C his passenger=2C and his aircraft when the engine decides to quit without a gu aranteed landing strip within gliding distance. > > On the other hand=2C ki lling your perfectly good engine to practice a dead-stick is tempting fate if you are not trained and proficient. The catch-22 is if you can't do it u nder a controlled situation then you probably won't be able to when everyth ing goes to hell. > > My only armchair quarterbacking of Lynn's practice is that I wouldn't do it on a 1700' field. I'd go with a 3000' or 4000' field and pick a point about 1000' down the runway to aim for. If I run out of e nergy then I'd still have room to safely land short. If I'm too fast then a n extra 1000' or 2000' will come in handy. > > Great topic for discussion. Thanks Lynn.> > --------> Dave> Speedster 912 UL> > > > > Read this topic o nline here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219270#219270> ===================> > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:50:34 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: first flight on skis this year From: "akflyer" I can think of more time on skis that I wanted to have directional control and the ability to yank hard back on the stick and sink that tail wheel in to stop, than I wanted more flotation. You can give it a little down to get the tail out of the snow... I ended not going to work due to mechanical issues with the charter 727 so I got to play on ski's today. I was very happy with them and the way she flew today. Got in 2.5 hrs in 0 degree temps and was nice and roasty in my snowmachine gear and the muffler heater. -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over. hander outer of humorless darwin awards Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219282#219282 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc02155_173.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc02150_100.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc02143_557.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc02141_521.jpg ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:05:54 PM PST US From: Rexinator Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Dead stick practice Well that's true Lynn. My comment was intended to humorously point out that if you were going to practice without instruction it's best to be very certain you will make the runway as Michel was. I recall a fun and challenging maneuver that my Commercial training included. Abeam the runway numbers throttle was reduced to idle and you were expected to judge your base and final turns such that you touched down precisely on the numbers at stall speed without adding power. The use of flaps was optional. If you overshot or undershot or really had to add power then the exercise was a fail and you did a go-around to try again. Of course you had to deviate considerably early from the normal pattern turn points, but it made you aware of how the airplane would perform if you suddenly lost power in the pattern. I would suggest it to be quite helpful as a method to practice prior to actual dead stick practice. This is something any instructor might have taught student pilots, but I don't recall practicing it until Commercial training. As for gliders all of them I'm aware of use spoilers during the standard approach so that you sink much more rapidly and must judge your approach to compensate for the steeper angle of decent. This method gives you a safety factor of reserve lift which allows you to employ the "spoiled lift" if you are misjudging your approach or unexpected conditions are encountered such as sinking air. For dead stick practice I think probably the best you can do is to simulate a glider procedure in a powered airplane by adding flaps or use slips to reduce the glide when you are over your intended landing site. Then you will have in reserve your option of retracting flaps or coming out of the slip to regain the best glide. Something to suggest to your instructor in case they only plan for engine power as a reserve safety factor during engine out practice.. Rex KF2 582 Colorado Lynn Matteson wrote: > > All due respect, Michel and Rex, what is there left to do once you've > crossed the threshold? I say this with the understanding of the > landing procedure that comes with nearly 600 hrs of flying and way > over 1000 landings (I haven't totaled up my logbook in ages) I feel > that the real skill in a dead stick landing comes from battling the > winds aloft, if there are any, and getting the seat-of-the-pants feel, > and three dimensional view of your world at say 500-1000 feet up. At > least this is what I used in my (1) emergency dead stick last fall, > and (2) my "pretend" emergency dead stick just the other day. > > Lynn Matteson > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs > Sensenich 62x46 > flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition > system; > also building a new pair of snow skis > > > On Dec 13, 2008, at 1:38 PM, Rexinator wrote: > >> >> See, That's what I'm talking about! Michel knows how to do dead stick >> practice safely. :-) >> >> Rex >> Do not archive >> >> Michel Verheughe wrote: >>>> From: Rex Hefferan [hefferans@gmail.com] I feel I should clarify >>>> that my comments were intended to encourage getting glider training. >>>> >>> >>> To that, I'd like to add that when my son started flying my >>> taildragger Kitfox 3, he had about 50 hours in a Blanik glider and >>> he mastered the Kitfox in no time. Glider training is really the >>> best training. This being said, I do dead-stick landing but ... with >>> a very good margin of security. The first time I did it was on a >>> runway 8,500 ft long. I was already passed the threshold when I >>> switched off the engine. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Michel Verheughe >>> Norway >>> Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... flying now as PAX > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:45:47 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Dead stick practice From: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT" On Sat, December 13, 2008 9:31 am, Rex Hefferan wrote: > > I feel I should clarify that my comments were intended to encourage getting glider > training. I also cringe at the idea of trying to gain experience at dead stick flying > before some proper training. When I got my first training I was fortunate to have an exceptional flight instructor. He was a career flight instructor in the USAF and had logged more than 25,000 hours of instructor time. At the time he was the head test pilot for the Boeing YC-14 program. His name is Dale Ranz. He could fly absolutely anything and do it well. He told me the first priority was safety, the second protecting the equipment and third priority was passenger comfort. This is what he said was military practice and it differs from commercial flight in priority where passenger comfort takes first billing. That said, before I elaborate on what I was taught I'll digress into procedure which would apply to any powered airplane. Assuming you've been given the lift off speed and the climb out speed that will work on the first take-off then you should always experimentally determine a few numbers. You need to know the power off stall speed and the approximate power setting to maintain flight at the traffic pattern downwind speed. All landings should be planned for a standard traffic pattern. That is you enter midfield on a 45 deg angle to downwind. The traffic pattern altitude and size of the traffic pattern should be chosen to be a standard one that you always use and that should be such that if you lost power completely at any point in the pattern, you can always make a normal landing. In my training, normal procedure was power to idle (dead stick) when rolling level on base. The speed would be maintained at approx 5 knots lower than downwind speed. The when turning final, the wings rolled level, you again reduce the speed another 5 knots. Still at idle. Your final approach speed is selected to be approx 15% higher than stall speed for the loaded configuration you're flying. That way you can adjust the touch down point as needed by simply raising the nose or slipping as needed to touch down close to the thresh hold. This makes every landing a short field landing with power to idle. The touchdown should occur right at or slightly below the stall speed. This minimizes the transition time and distance between flying and control with wheels and brakes. This technique is properly performed with a noticeably impact without bouncing. This impact absorbs a significant amount of the kinetic energy of the moving aircraft and minimizes tire skidding with hard braking because there is little lift from the wings. Here's where passenger comfort is placed last behind safety and protection of the equipment. That is the military way. The commercial aircraft operation will not choose to do it this way. They prefer power on approaches with feather weight touchdown forces and minimum crab angles. Passengers are frightened and uncomfortable with any sudden movements and sensations. There are examples where passenger comfort can be facilitated with no loss of performance or safety. One practice I had developed (on a Cherokee Arrow) was to make nearly instantaneous flap position changes. One notch of flaps on takeoff and as soon as I reached best angle speed, I would raise the flaps - click! To a passenger, especially a non-pilot, this sudden change in pitch is really a rude sensation. So, I was counciled to take 2 to 3 seconds to retract the flaps or lower them for each notch. 20, 45 and 60 deg. So in summary, I think best practice is to determine the traffic pattern altitude and points to turn base and final and the speeds and always observe them. For tower controlled airfields the normal traffic pattern altitude is 1000' AGL and for non-controlled strips it is 800' AGL. You need to determine how far you need to be from runway centerline on downwind, how far past the thresh hold for base and what your ideal final approach speed should be without power. If you do this, you will always be able to land dead stick as every landing done is dead stick normally. The idea of a traffic pattern is to be able to land without power at any point. A couple of very strong points have been made about glider flying. Glider pilots learn skills to keep them aloft for as long as possible. Often using terrain features, cloud cover and even terrain color to keep them in an updraft more of the time than they are in a downdraft. Another point that has been made is that sudden engine temperature changes can shorten the life or even break and engine. For that reason, when practicing touch and go's people don't do them near the runway thresh hold but rather nearer midfield. They usually don't do dead stick landings and take 3 to 4 seconds to advance the throttle on take-off. Your reasons for practicing these could be many but smooth directional control, crosswinds, and consistency are some of those reasons. So, it doesn't seem fitting to me to advise people not to do dead stick landings until they have had adequate training, since training should have been doing them from the very start. > One of the most important skills gliding teaches is understanding and managing your > glide energy. Weather and air currents are about equally important and as a powered > plane pilot you are not as concerned as you must be when gliding. Terrain features > become another vital aspect of gliding that can be very helpful to powered flight. > If nothing else, get a sailplane flight instruction book and study this wonderful > realm of flight. That is a very solid tip, IMHO. -- Paul A. Franz Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP Bellevue WA 425.241.1618 Cell ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.