Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:00 AM - Transponder Noise with Rotax 582 (kenharrison)
2. 05:08 AM - Re: Transponder Noise with Rotax 582 (fox5flyer)
3. 06:05 AM - Re: Transponder Noise with Rotax 582 (Paul Franz - Merlin GT)
4. 09:35 AM - Re: Transponder Noise with Rotax 582 (n85ae)
5. 11:12 AM - Re: Kitfox dead stick practice (Ed Gray)
6. 12:26 PM - Re: Kitfox dead stick practice (akflyer)
7. 12:38 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox dead stick practice (patrick reilly)
8. 01:48 PM - Re: Kitfox dead stick practice (akflyer)
9. 02:39 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox dead stick practice (Randy Daughenbaugh)
10. 06:19 PM - Re: Re: Dead stick practice -Gimli Glider OT (Noel Loveys)
11. 07:40 PM - Re: prop clutch (Paul Franz - Merlin GT)
12. 07:53 PM - Deadstick Landing (Weiss Richard)
13. 08:26 PM - Re: Dead stick practice (Noel Loveys)
14. 08:54 PM - Re: Re: Kitfox dead stick practice (Marco Menezes)
15. 10:27 PM - Re: prop clutch (akflyer)
16. 10:39 PM - Re: Kitfox dead stick practice (akflyer)
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| Subject: | Transponder Noise with Rotax 582 |
Hello Gentlemen,
Im having transponder trouble. I have installed a new KT76 in my Kitfox III
with 582 Mod 90. I am running BR8ES plugs and have a Key West regulator/rectifier.
So far I have been very happy with the system and have very low/acceptable
RF noise in the radio/intercom. The radio is a handheld on the 12V from
the aircraft, and the intercom is a David Clark in panel (cant remember the
model at the moment). I have installed and wired the transponder according to
the directions (relatively certain about that). With the engine not running,
if I turn the transponder on it powers up and cycles through its test normally.
It appears to ident and test properly as any other transponder Ive used in
other aircraft, and it appears to be receiving interrogation from ATC, and returning
responses normally (the light blinks periodically). My problem is that
when the 582 is running, the transponder will immediately start blinking incessantly
and I get a crackling sound over the intercom.
Does anyone have any ideas what Ive done wrong. I have not had the transponder
certified by the shop yet. Was hoping to clear up this problem before I take
it to them. I have searched high and low on the internet and on the Kitfox archives
and on Aeroelectric.com but can find any discussion of such a problem.
I would appreciate any guidance.
--------
Ken Harrison
Kitfox III
Rotax 582 C Box
Powerfin 3-Blade
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219411#219411
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| Subject: | Re: Transponder Noise with Rotax 582 |
There probably isn't anything wrong with the transponder. Sounds like
you're getting ignition interference. Check all of your wiring and ensure
none of the transponder wiring (especially antenna) is close to ignition
wiring.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
- Joseph Joubert
----- Original Message -----
From: "kenharrison" <kenharrison@comporium.net>
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 8:00 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Transponder Noise with Rotax 582
> <kenharrison@comporium.net>
>
> Hello Gentlemen,
> I?Tm having transponder trouble. I have installed a ?onew? KT76 in
> my Kitfox III with 582 Mod 90. I am running BR8ES plugs and have a Key
> West regulator/rectifier. So far I have been very happy with the system
> and have very low/acceptable RF noise in the radio/intercom. The radio
> is a handheld on the 12V from the aircraft, and the intercom is a David
> Clark in panel (can?Tt remember the model at the moment). I have
> installed and wired the transponder according to the directions
> (relatively certain about that). With the engine not running, if I turn
> the transponder on it powers up and cycles through its test normally. It
> appears to ident and test properly as any other transponder I?Tve used in
> other aircraft, and it appears to be receiving interrogation from ATC, and
> returning responses normally (the light blinks periodically). My problem
> is that when the 582 is running, the transponder will immediately start
> blinking incessantly and I get a crackling sound o!
> ver the intercom.
>
> Does anyone have any ideas what I?Tve done wrong. I have not had the
> transponder certified by the shop yet. Was hoping to clear up this
> problem before I take it to them. I have searched high and low on the
> internet and on the Kitfox archives and on Aeroelectric.com but can find
> any discussion of such a problem.
>
> I would appreciate any guidance.
>
> --------
> Ken Harrison
> Kitfox III
> Rotax 582 C Box
> Powerfin 3-Blade
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219411#219411
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Transponder Noise with Rotax 582 |
On Mon, December 15, 2008 5:00 am, kenharrison wrote:
> My problem is that
> when the 582 is running, the transponder will immediately start blinking
> incessantly and I get a crackling sound o!
> ver the intercom.
>
> Does anyone have any ideas what Ive done wrong. I have not had the transponder
> certified by the shop yet. Was hoping to clear up this problem before I take
it to
> them. I have searched high and low on the internet and on the Kitfox archives
and on
> Aeroelectric.com but can find any discussion of such a problem.
You're going to need to do some isolation tests. The noise described could be coming
from either the charging circuit (alternator/lighting coil and VR) or it is coming
from the ignition. If any of the wiring is coaxial cable make sure it is only grounded
on one end of the coax shield. Which end? That's somewhat important too but I can't
answer that with certainty. You're likely going to need a couple of low pass noise
filters too.
You would do well to post this on the aeroelectric list. I've seen many discussions
in
the past about line noise. You can post without being subscribed to any maillist.
You
only need to be subscribed to matronics. When you post there you can flag your
message
to get a notification by e-mail when someone responds.
<http://forums.matronics.com/>
This system works so well, that I see no need to subscribe to any lists because
once
you're signed up on matronics, all lists are accessible.
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
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| Subject: | Re: Transponder Noise with Rotax 582 |
Check make sure that you have a decent size grounds from your avionics to battery
(-), if you're using airframe as ground you might want to look
into running independent grounds to your devices. Also connect a ground
to the encoder case, especially if you have it adel clamped to the frame.
Regards,
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219460#219460
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| Subject: | RE: Kitfox dead stick practice |
Interesting posts on "dead stick" practice. My K II is still 2-3 months
from completion so this is all theoretical now. I am glider rated and would
probably practice engine off landings on a big glider field near Dallas. My
question re engine cooling (582); do you shock cool the engine more with a
long glide at idle (folks say the 582 likes a 2000 rpm idle) or by turning
the engine off and stopping the prop? Are 582s typically easy to air start
with electric starter? And, has anyone devised wing tip extensions to
increase the l/d of a Kitfox? Removing the tips and plugging in a 5 foot
tapered extension would be an easy mod if you like to tinker. Finally, do
the KF II flaps function as well as an air brake to keep engine temps up?
The air brake I have in mind is a simple flap mounted on the aft float
brackets activated by a pull cable. Since I fly a turbo Mooney, I rely a
lot on my air brakes. Good views on the list!
Do not archive
Ed Gray, Dallas, KF II 582 nearing completion
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Total Messages Posted Sun 12/14/08: 19
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Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:25 AM - Re: Dead stick practice (Michel Verheughe)
2. 05:27 AM - dead stick landing (bob noffs)
3. 05:48 AM - Re: first flight on skis this year (Catz631@aol.com)
4. 06:45 AM - Re: Re: Dead stick practice (Lynn Matteson)
5. 07:01 AM - Re: Re: Dead stick practice (Lynn Matteson)
6. 07:08 AM - Re: dead stick landing (Lynn Matteson)
7. 07:31 AM - Re: Re: first flight on skis this year (Lynn Matteson)
8. 09:02 AM - Re: dead stick landing (Roger Lee)
9. 09:15 AM - Re: first flight on skis this year (akflyer)
10. 10:03 AM - Re: Dead stick practice (815TL)
11. 10:19 AM - Re: Re: Dead stick practice (Rexinator)
12. 10:24 AM - Soaring (was: Dead stick practice) (Michael Gibbs)
13. 10:25 AM - Re: Re: Dead stick practice (Rexinator)
14. 10:25 AM - Re: Re: Dead stick practice (Randy Daughenbaugh)
15. 10:42 AM - Re: Re: dead stick landing (Lynn Matteson)
16. 11:36 AM - Re: dead stick landing (akflyer)
17. 02:59 PM - Re: Re: dead stick landing (Randy Daughenbaugh)
18. 04:11 PM - Re: Dead stick practice (Lynn Matteson)
19. 08:52 PM - Engine out soaring (James Shumaker)
________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
Time: 12:25:34 AM PST US
From: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
Subject: Kitfox-List: RE: Dead stick practice
> From: gary.algate@sandvik.com
> When I was on Skis and lived on a lake in Canada I would switch of at
> about 3,00ft over the lake and glide around and practice my spot landings.
... Aha! Wasn't it you who gave me the idea to do the same, Gary? It all
comes
back to me now and my wife is wrong saying that I am senile! :-)
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... flying as PAX
Do not archive
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre>
________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
Time: 05:27:45 AM PST US
From: "bob noffs" <icubob@newnorth.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: dead stick landing
i just gotta ask..........in a normal landing my hand is on the throttle
for an emergency go around . with a dead stick landing do i keep a hand
on the ignition switch?
bob noffs
________________________________ Message 3
_____________________________________
Time: 05:48:35 AM PST US
From: Catz631@aol.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: first flight on skis this year
Leonard,
Fantastic pictures !!! Makes me shiver looking at them. I sure love Alaska
and really enjoyed Soldotna when I was passing through that area of the
"Banana Belt" I just installed VG's on my model 4. It appears you have the
same
pointed ones that I do. I sure want to try them out but am waiting for my
repacked
chute from BRS to return so that I can finish off my annual. Do you notice
any difference in your aircraft?
Dick Maddux
Fox 4-1200
Pensacola,Fl
**************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail,
Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. The NEW
________________________________ Message 4
_____________________________________
Time: 06:45:48 AM PST US
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Dead stick practice
When you say "usually" Pat, of the two.....that is TWO....dead stick
(and I mean DEAD stick....(some people writing about this recently
consider idle speed to be dead stick...I'm calling propellor
*stopped* dead stick...not idling, not windmiling...STOPPED, as in
not moving) ) landings that I've made, the "engine blown up, not
producing power, windmilling at first, then stopped" landing was a
seat of the pants landing that began at 1000'AGL and was a normal
downwind, base, and final approach, over a road, avoiding a tree (not
a factor), and glide into a wheat field, all based on previous visual
determinations of hundreds of landings at various types of airports,
mostly grass, with various factors involved...lakes, streams, swamps,
hills, trees, buildings, power lines, some with my instructor holding
his hand over the airspeed indicator (a few times), once with the
instructor slipping it down to maybe 200' AGL then giving it back to
me (saying, "I was just messing with you") and having me finish it
up, into undulating runways which might or might not run up or
downhill, and which might or might not have snow on them....now,
where was I?
...oh, yeah, of the two dead stickers, I only had to slip it in on
this last one, because I felt like I was a bit high, then realized I
had slowed it a bit too much in the slip and had to point it down
after I cleared the 50'-60' trees near the end of the runway, to pick
up some speed, then leveled off and landed normally.
I normally slip it when I'm too high, or have to bring it in over
some trees.
There is a place about 20 miles from home (our Saturday morning
coffee and lie-telling gathering place) where there are 50'-70' trees
at both ends of a 2400' strip, and I mean right AT the ends, with
swamp to the south end, and a power line on the north end thrown in
for good measure. This is where I get some good slip-in practice.
I'll slip it in over the trees, then considering whether I'm landing
18 (away from the coffee house) or 36 (toward it), I'll either add
power and float toward the coffee before touching down (so I don't
have to taxi so far) , or cut the power to 800-900 rpm, and touch
down sooner and get on the brakes (so I don't have to taxi so far).
These landings usually involve getting off to the side of the runway
after touchdown, so as to avoid the planes that are following you
(sometimes at a safe distance even), or watching out for the already-
landed planes, who are taxiing toward the coffee house. We may get as
many as 18 planes (Cubs, Tri-Pacers, Aeroncas, an Ercoupe, Cessna
150's, 170's, 172's, 180's, a Midget Mustang II, Ultralights,
Stinsons, a Quail, Taylorcrafts, my Kitfox, and another that puts
mine to shame (Hi, John May) ), in there, or as few as 1...me, on
skis. :)
Anybody in the vicinity of Hanover, Michigan is welcome to "slip in"
on Saturday morning about 9:30 to about noon. Just holler and I'll
give you the coordinates.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Dec 13, 2008, at 10:10 PM, patrick reilly wrote:
> Lynn, Do you usually slip in when dead sticking to keep plenty of
> speed. If your gliding in from a distance at a slow speed and
> misjudge, you can run out of energy. 1700' might not sound like
> alot of runway. But, with a plane that can be landed in a few
> hundred feet, 1700' is quite a long field as long as your using the
> whole runway. Most of my flight has been in an ultralite that
> stalled at 19 mph. You never worried about not enough runway. As a
> matter of fact, you could do as many touch and goes on 1 landing as
> you wanted to on almost any field.
>
> Pat Reilly
> Mod 3 582 Rebuild
> Rockford, IL
>
> > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Dead stick practice
> > From: dmivezic@yahoo.com
> > Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 18:38:07 -0800
> > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> >
> >
> > The way I see it, any way you do it you are taking a risk.
> >
> > Lynn's practice is risky but he'll be well qualified to save
> himself, his passenger, and his aircraft when the engine decides to
> quit without a guaranteed landing strip within gliding distance.
> >
> > On the other hand, killing your perfectly good engine to practice
> a dead-stick is tempting fate if you are not trained and
> proficient. The catch-22 is if you can't do it under a controlled
> situation then you probably won't be able to when everything goes
> to hell.
> >
> > My only armchair quarterbacking of Lynn's practice is that I
> wouldn't do it on a 1700' field. I'd go with a 3000' or 4000' field
> and pick a point about 1000' down the runway to aim for. If I run
> out of energy then I'd still have room to safely land short. If I'm
> too fast then an extra 1000' or 2000' will come in handy.
> >
> > Great topic for discussion. Thanks Lynn.
> >
> > --------
> > Dave
> > Speedster 912 UL
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219270#219270
> >
> >
> >============
> >
> >
> >
>
> ============================================================ _-
> ============================================================ _-
> ==========================================================
________________________________ Message 5
_____________________________________
Time: 07:01:27 AM PST US
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Dead stick practice
Exactly....thanks, Dave. I advocate flying into different
airfields, strips, whatever, (as long as it's a known airfield),
especially if it doesn't have the familiar cones, windsocks, tower,
runway markings, etc., that key into our minds the familiar picture
of the landing process. This helps us determine where the field
begins and ends, and allows us to visualize those markings if we need
them, or allows us to be able to land without those "crutches." Don't
get me wrong, those markings are necessary for some folks, but
practicing without them is where the real-world emergency training
comes in.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Dec 13, 2008, at 9:38 PM, crazyivan wrote:
>
(snip)
> On the other hand, killing your perfectly good engine to practice a
> dead-stick is tempting fate if you are not trained and proficient.
> The catch-22 is if you can't do it under a controlled situation
> then you probably won't be able to when everything goes to hell.
>
(snip)
> --------
> Dave
> Speedster 912 UL
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219270#219270
>
>
________________________________ Message 6
_____________________________________
Time: 07:08:03 AM PST US
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: dead stick landing
Only if ya got another one handy! : )
When I had to land with the engine broken, I had one hand on the
stick, and the other on my "private parts"...the throttle wasn't
going to help me any, the ignition switch wasn't going to help me
any...come to think of it, I'm single, divorced, retired, with no
immediate future need for those private parts, so why didn't I just
cover my eyes with that extra hand? See? That's why we need to
practice, practice, practice....think, think, think....
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Dec 14, 2008, at 8:26 AM, bob noffs wrote:
> i just gotta ask..........in a normal landing my hand is on the
> throttle for an emergency go around . with a dead stick landing do
> i keep a hand on the ignition switch?
>
> bob noffs
> ============================================================ _-
> ============================================================ _-
> ==========================================================
________________________________ Message 7
_____________________________________
Time: 07:31:18 AM PST US
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: first flight on skis this year
Leonard-
Are these skis the 13.5" x 60" skis? They don't look that wide, or
are you talking total width of the two skis as being 13.5''....each
being 6.75" wide?
If so, they don't look that narrow. But they look closer to 6.75"
than to 13.5" each.
Also, in the one picture, I see a runway marked with what looks like
"7S" ...is that for "snow"? (I'm gonna probably regret asking this
dumb question.) : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
do not archive
On Dec 13, 2008, at 11:49 PM, akflyer wrote:
>
> I can think of more time on skis that I wanted to have directional
> control and the ability to yank hard back on the stick and sink
> that tail wheel in to stop, than I wanted more flotation. You can
> give it a little down to get the tail out of the snow... I ended
> not going to work due to mechanical issues with the charter 727 so
> I got to play on ski's today. I was very happy with them and the
> way she flew today. Got in 2.5 hrs in 0 degree temps and was nice
> and roasty in my snowmachine gear and the muffler heater.
>
> --------
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
> Leonard Perry
> Soldotna AK
> Avid "C" / Mk IV
> 582 IVO IFA
> Full Lotus 1260
> As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis
> takes over.
>
> hander outer of humorless darwin awards
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219282#219282
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc02155_173.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc02150_100.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc02143_557.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc02141_521.jpg
>
>
________________________________ Message 8
_____________________________________
Time: 09:02:20 AM PST US
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: dead stick landing
From: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1@yahoo.com>
Once you are close to landing all your attention should be focused on the
landing.
No distractions. They work out just fine. Don't over think it. Just do what
you do on any other landing. Just let it flow and relax. I like the way the
plane lands without the engine better than I do with the engine on. It has
been
that way for a dozen aircraft now.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Service Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219309#219309
________________________________ Message 9
_____________________________________
Time: 09:15:48 AM PST US
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: first flight on skis this year
From: "akflyer" <akflyer_2000@yahoo.com>
Lynn Matteson wrote:
> Leonard-
> Are these skis the 13.5" x 60" skis? They don't look that wide, or
> are you talking total width of the two skis as being 13.5'....each
> being 6.75" wide?
> If so, they don't look that narrow. But they look closer to 6.75"
> than to 13.5" each.
>
> Also, in the one picture, I see a runway marked with what looks like
> "7S" ...is that for "snow"? (I'm gonna probably regret asking this
> dumb question.) : )
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
> system;
> also building a new pair of snow skis
> do not archive
>
>
[/quote]
The actual ski is 11.5" wide (each) and I made the 1/4" UHMW bottoms 1"
wider all
the way around hence the 13.5". In reality, with the way they turn up at
the
edges, I ended up with a width just over 13" (each).
They have been changing the runways out there and put in a gravel / ski
strip this
year for us outlaws that were always landing in the grass between the runway
and taxi way. It was narrow and 3 or 4 times a summer someone would take
out
a runway light. They figured if they cant beat us then they should
accommodate
us lol. You want a challenge, try landing a cub with 31" bushwheels that
have 2-3 psi in them on asphalt with a stiff crosswind....hence the need for
the gravel runway.
I am not sure what they are thinking with the designation? 7 and 25 S may
be short?
it dang sure is not south..and in summer would not be Ski... Any normal
thinking airport commission would have called 7 and 7L. Everyone just calls
it 7 gravel and we all know what they are talking about.
Dick, I just put the VG's on yesterday morning. I screwed up and did not
fly it
on wheels before I went to skis for a fair comparison so I cant say if it is
the VG's helping out or the ski's being less drag than those 24" tires. At
any
rate, I went up and ran the gamut yesterday and was happy with them / it.
First flight stall power off and clean was about 38. Full power she would
break
about 35. full flaps power off it was a gentle break at 32.
Yesterday power off clean 34, full power at 35 I was climbing at 400'
minute, stalled
at about 30 with a ridiculously high deck angle. Full flaps it would not
break but just mush at 28.
Keep in mind that this was at 0 to -3 OAT. Initial flight and stall testing
was
done at 25 OAT.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219311#219311
________________________________ Message 10
____________________________________
Time: 10:03:17 AM PST US
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Dead stick practice
From: "815TL" <lawrenceaw@corning.com>
Has anyone actually tried to soar in a Kitfox? I have about 20 hours in
gliders.
Every landing in a glider is an emergency, you have one shot at it. So
those
of you that shut down and glide a ways, have you ever looked for any
thermals,
or ridge soar? The Schweizer 2-33s that I trained in were about the same
weight as the Kitfox, and had a lift to drag of about 18:1. The Kitfox,
with
about 12:1, and lightweight, although not perfect for soaring, should do so
quite
well. Around my area, thermals are of medium strength, but it was not
uncommon
to hit a thermal of 400-500FPM climb on a decent day.
Seems like it might be kind of fun to go up about 3000', shut down and
search for
a thermal. Knowing you can re-start and head back to your field when you
are
done, is big plus.
Andrew
Kitfox II, 815TL, Rotax 582-C
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219315#219315
________________________________ Message 11
____________________________________
Time: 10:19:05 AM PST US
From: Rexinator <rexinator@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Dead stick practice
Since there has been more detail here about the practice of true dead
stick (which I should reveal I have not really practiced yet) I think I
ought to add a bit more to the glider procedures I provided.
In gliders for the standard landing you apply half spoilers so that
you still can adjust your glide angle steeper or shallow it out as the
approach progresses. Once you touch down it's full spoilers and you stay
down. To relate that to a practice dead stick approach you might
consider the propeller drag factor at idle that reduces your glide angle
as similar to adding some amount of flaps.
I think the point is to consider the possible configurations your
aircraft may have under the conditions you might find yourself and plan
your practice to simulate those conditions. You want to give yourself a
way to adjust your glide so you have the best chance of reaching that
precise point you chose for landing. Another way for example; my flight
school taught that a certain amount of RPM equated to a stopped
propeller at V_L/D (best Lift over Drag) so that was how we practiced
engine out. (mostly for insurance reasons and FAA suggestions). There
are ways to do these things with relative safety and an instructor
should know how to figure them out. If you as a pilot are confident you
know enough to figure them out then it is your risk as always.
Paul offers excellent advice and I highly respect his input. I also
highly respect Lynn who has related his experience which shows there can
be a lot of variables to an actual emergency. Many of these are things
we may not think of as we apply our limited knowledge into practice.
Even the best instructor hasn't seen it all yet, but it's very unlikely
they will be surprised by the things we might encounter. They would
handle in stride what we might find way over our skill level. So by all
means get your instructor to challenge your comfort level. Because of
it, one day you might still be around to thank him. I know I'll need a
lot of remedial training once I start flying again.
Rex
M2 582
Colorado
Lynn Matteson wrote:
>
> When you say "usually" Pat, of the two.....that is TWO....dead stick
> (and I mean DEAD stick....(some people writing about this recently
> consider idle speed to be dead stick...I'm calling propellor *stopped*
> dead stick...not idling, not windmiling...STOPPED, as in not moving)
> ) landings that I've made, the "engine blown up, not producing power,
> windmilling at first, then stopped" landing was a seat of the pants
> landing that began at 1000'AGL and was a normal downwind, base, and
> final approach, over a road, avoiding a tree (not a factor), and glide
> into a wheat field, all based on previous visual determinations of
> hundreds of landings at various types of airports, mostly grass, with
> various factors involved...lakes, streams, swamps, hills, trees,
> buildings, power lines, some with my instructor holding his hand over
> the airspeed indicator (a few times), once with the instructor
> slipping it down to maybe 200' AGL then giving it back to me (saying,
> "I was just messing with you") and having me finish it up, into
> undulating runways which might or might not run up or downhill, and
> which might or might not have snow on them....now, where was I?
> ...oh, yeah, of the two dead stickers, I only had to slip it in on
> this last one, because I felt like I was a bit high, then realized I
> had slowed it a bit too much in the slip and had to point it down
> after I cleared the 50'-60' trees near the end of the runway, to pick
> up some speed, then leveled off and landed normally.
> I normally slip it when I'm too high, or have to bring it in over some
> trees.
>
> There is a place about 20 miles from home (our Saturday morning coffee
> and lie-telling gathering place) where there are 50'-70' trees at both
> ends of a 2400' strip, and I mean right AT the ends, with swamp to the
> south end, and a power line on the north end thrown in for good
> measure. This is where I get some good slip-in practice. I'll slip it
> in over the trees, then considering whether I'm landing 18 (away from
> the coffee house) or 36 (toward it), I'll either add power and float
> toward the coffee before touching down (so I don't have to taxi so
> far) , or cut the power to 800-900 rpm, and touch down sooner and get
> on the brakes (so I don't have to taxi so far). These landings usually
> involve getting off to the side of the runway after touchdown, so as
> to avoid the planes that are following you (sometimes at a safe
> distance even), or watching out for the already-landed planes, who are
> taxiing toward the coffee house. We may get as many as 18 planes
> (Cubs, Tri-Pacers, Aeroncas, an Ercoupe, Cessna 150's, 170's, 172's,
> 180's, a Midget Mustang II, Ultralights, Stinsons, a Quail,
> Taylorcrafts, my Kitfox, and another that puts mine to shame (Hi, John
> May) ), in there, or as few as 1...me, on skis. :)
>
> Anybody in the vicinity of Hanover, Michigan is welcome to "slip in"
> on Saturday morning about 9:30 to about noon. Just holler and I'll
> give you the coordinates.
>
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
> system;
> also building a new pair of snow skis
________________________________ Message 12
____________________________________
Time: 10:24:34 AM PST US
From: Michael Gibbs <MichaelGibbs@cox.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Soaring (was: Dead stick practice)
Andrew asks:
>Has anyone actually tried to soar in a Kitfox?
Yes, I've done it. Even though my Model IV was in the Speedster
configuration with the clipped wings, I was surprised by how much
upward vertical speed she could capture from tight turns within a
thermal. It was a warm day here in the desert and the air was moving
up and down more than left and right, so I decided to see what would
happen.
I didn't make note of the specifics, but starting around 4000 agl and
holding the airspeed right around Vy I was able to operate on wind
power and remain above my initial altitude for nearly 15 minutes
before deciding to head back. I'm sure I could have stayed much
longer but it was getting late.
Mike G.
N72KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster
Phoenix, AZ
________________________________ Message 13
____________________________________
Time: 10:25:28 AM PST US
From: Rexinator <rexinator@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Dead stick practice
Hey Andrew, Looks like you might be a good candidate for it. If no one
reports first, give it a try and tell us how it went. I'd be interested
since we have the same model and engine.
Rex
M2 582-C
Colorado
815TL wrote:
>
> Has anyone actually tried to soar in a Kitfox? I have about 20 hours in
gliders.
Every landing in a glider is an emergency, you have one shot at it. So
those of you that shut down and glide a ways, have you ever looked for any
thermals,
or ridge soar? The Schweizer 2-33s that I trained in were about the same
weight as the Kitfox, and had a lift to drag of about 18:1. The Kitfox,
with
about 12:1, and lightweight, although not perfect for soaring, should do so
quite well. Around my area, thermals are of medium strength, but it was
not
uncommon to hit a thermal of 400-500FPM climb on a decent day.
>
> Seems like it might be kind of fun to go up about 3000', shut down and
search
for a thermal. Knowing you can re-start and head back to your field when
you
are done, is big plus.
>
> Andrew
> Kitfox II, 815TL, Rotax 582-C
>
>
>
________________________________ Message 14
____________________________________
Time: 10:25:58 AM PST US
From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Dead stick practice
Andrew,
I like to play glider with my series 5/7, 776 lbs. Lowest sink rate is
about 600ft/min at 60 mph. I have held at zero sink rate for a few minutes,
but so far have never gotten into positive territory. I do have big tires
which can't help any.
I have talked to others who do this and some claim some success. I really
don't believe I have hit any good thermals yet. I usually fly in the
relatively still air early or late in the day.
I used to fly gliders in Boulder Colorado and had both good thermals and
something wave lift there.
Randy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of 815TL
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 11:03 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Dead stick practice
Has anyone actually tried to soar in a Kitfox? I have about 20 hours in
gliders. Every landing in a glider is an emergency, you have one shot at
it. So those of you that shut down and glide a ways, have you ever looked
for any thermals, or ridge soar? The Schweizer 2-33s that I trained in were
about the same weight as the Kitfox, and had a lift to drag of about 18:1.
The Kitfox, with about 12:1, and lightweight, although not perfect for
soaring, should do so quite well. Around my area, thermals are of medium
strength, but it was not uncommon to hit a thermal of 400-500FPM climb on a
decent day.
Seems like it might be kind of fun to go up about 3000', shut down and
search for a thermal. Knowing you can re-start and head back to your field
when you are done, is big plus.
Andrew
Kitfox II, 815TL, Rotax 582-C
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219315#219315
________________________________ Message 15
____________________________________
Time: 10:42:33 AM PST US
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: dead stick landing
Ya mean I shouldn't be taking pictures of my landings...the way I did
here at Wendover Utah? Shucks, Rog, where's the fun in that?
Seriously, I DO understand what you're saying, and for the most part
I agree, but maybe a bit of relaxing the sphincter might help us make
better landings?
By the way, I did finally correct for the "off the centerline" runway
line-up, and put her down pretty good. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
do not archive
On Dec 14, 2008, at 12:01 PM, Roger Lee wrote:
>
> Once you are close to landing all your attention should be focused
> on the landing. No distractions. They work out just fine. Don't
> over think it. Just do what you do on any other landing. Just let
> it flow and relax. I like the way the plane lands without the
> engine better than I do with the engine on. It has been that way
> for a dozen aircraft now.
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Service Center
> 520-574-1080
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219309#219309
>
>
________________________________ Message 16
____________________________________
Time: 11:36:04 AM PST US
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: dead stick landing
From: "akflyer" <akflyer_2000@yahoo.com>
I am just gonna take a shot in the dark here and say it seems that alot of
the
nay sayers dont get out and fly much. I put on a few hundred hours a year
minimum
and dont feel all the stress that is conveyed here.
Heck, the FAA paperwork on mine calls it a motor glider?
The way I see it is if you are current, proficient, and want to practice
deadstick
landings, then by all means hone your skills as long as you use a tad bit
of common sense.
Now if you have not flown in years (other than your keyboard) and are on
your first
flight in a coons age, deadstick practice just may get you an "award" that
I am so fond of "handing out" lol.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219328#219328
________________________________ Message 17
____________________________________
Time: 02:59:00 PM PST US
From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: dead stick landing
Leonard,
Your post reminds me of the report a while back of a guy who says landings
are dangerous. His solution was to not practice them. Just make the
minimum amount of landings needed.
B-)
Randy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of akflyer
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 12:35 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: dead stick landing
I am just gonna take a shot in the dark here and say it seems that alot of
the nay sayers dont get out and fly much. I put on a few hundred hours a
year minimum and dont feel all the stress that is conveyed here.
Heck, the FAA paperwork on mine calls it a motor glider?
The way I see it is if you are current, proficient, and want to practice
deadstick landings, then by all means hone your skills as long as you use a
tad bit of common sense.
Now if you have not flown in years (other than your keyboard) and are on
your first flight in a coons age, deadstick practice just may get you an
"award" that I am so fond of "handing out" lol.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219328#219328
________________________________ Message 18
____________________________________
Time: 04:11:09 PM PST US
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Dead stick practice
Sounds like fun, Gary....you got a game plan on when you'll be back
over here to try some more of that? And by the way, how did you get
your Kitfox over there in Oz? I think you mentioned it, but I've
forgotten. This would be a refresher course for others who might like
to ship their planes.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
do not archive
On Dec 13, 2008, at 4:53 PM, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote:
>
> Hmm - not sure I agree with this one. However it depends upon
> location. When I was on Skis and lived on a lake in Canada I would
> switch of at about 3,00ft over the lake and glide around and
> practice my spot landings. It was great practice and i was amazed
> how far I was out when I first started.
>
> After a while it became very easy to control my descent and use
> slips etc to land "on the numbers".
>
> The only caveat here is I had basically unlimited area to land and
> if I landed long or short it made no difference
>
> I learned a lot from that!
>
> Gary
>
> Gary Algate
> SMC, Exploration
> Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
>
>
> This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the
> addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of
> this message by persons or entities other than the intended
> recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error,
> kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the
> message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for
> any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may
> arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
> This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we
> have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe
> and happy Christmas".
>
>
> Catz631@aol.com
> Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> 14/12/2008 01:05 AM
> Please respond to
> kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
> To
> kitfox-list@matronics.com
> cc
> Subject
> Re: Kitfox-List: Dead stick practice
>
>
> Lynn,
> I just have to say this (at the risk of being called an old
> lady )! Please don't practice dead stick landings. I had expected
> someone to already bring this up but it hasn't happened. Practicing
> deadsticks is a good way to smash your airplane into pieces. As an
> example we had a guy at our field (Navy student) who decided to
> practice an engine out in a Yankee(nice airplane) so he came over
> the field at high key, low key final and promptly crashed his
> airplane on the field. He was OK but the plane was totaled. If
> something happens enroute or you misjudge, or the engine doesn't
> start, you are screwed. I have had three dead sticks in my Kitfox.
> All occurred on final when the engine quit due to low idle rpm on
> my engine. I now have that resolved. This happened when I first
> bought the aircraft and I must admit it does glide good. The first
> dead stick (have had many since) for me was in a T-28 which
> occurred when the master rod broke at 3000 feet. I glided that one
> to NAS whiting field and landed 500 ft short of the runway on the
> grass. That airplane is now on static display. The military and
> flight schools have long given up actual dead stick landings as too
> many aircraft were destroyed. One more thing and I will leave you
> alone.( as I highly respect your writing) Glider training will
> absolutely help out a sport or any other pilot. You will learn more
> about your aircraft then you could have imagined and the training
> will apply to any aircraft! ( I even used it in flying P-3's over
> mountainous terrain and on approaches) There, I have said it and I
> am done. It would bother me if one of our new pilots decided to
> shut his engine down to glide around, misjudged and then crunched
> his airplane (besides, rapid cooling is not good on the engine)
> Dick
> Maddux
> Fox
> 4-1200
> 912UL
>
> Pensacola,Fl
>
>
> One site keeps you connected to all your emailw-
> dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000019">The NEW AOL.com.
>
>
> ==========================================================
________________________________ Message 19
____________________________________
Time: 08:52:17 PM PST US
From: James Shumaker <jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Engine out soaring
Andrew=0A=0AYes I have soared my Kitfox.- I did it locally when a light f
rontal system was moving through.- As someone mentioned, the Kitfox sink
rate is not all that great so it takes some pretty strong uplift to soar, b
ut it is very easy to turn and core the thermals.- Not so good in ridge l
ift because of the sink rate.- Also the penetration between thermals is n
ot great because of the drag of the struts and stuff.- =0A=0AJim Shumaker
=0AKitfox III 912ul=0ASalinas, CA=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A___________________________
_____=0AFrom: 815TL <lawrenceaw@corning.com>=0ATo: kitfox-list@matronics.co
m=0ASent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 10:02:34 AM=0ASubject: Kitfox-List: Re:
nceaw@corning.com>=0A=0AHas anyone actually tried to soar in a Kitfox?- I
have about 20 hours in gliders.- Every landing in a glider is an emergen
cy, you have one shot at it.- So those of you that shut down and glide a
ways, have you ever looked for any thermals, or ridge soar?- The Schweize
r 2-33s that I trained in were about the same weight as the Kitfox, and had
a lift to drag of about 18:1.- The Kitfox, with about 12:1, and lightwei
ght, although not perfect for soaring, should do so quite well.- Around m
y area, thermals are of medium strength, but it was not uncommon to hit a t
hermal of 400-500FPM climb on a decent day.=0A=0ASeems like it might be kin
d of fun to go up about 3000', shut down and search for a thermal.- Knowi
ng you can re-start and head back to your field when you are done, is big p
lus.=0A=0AAndrew=0AKitfox II, 815TL, Rotax 582-C=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this to
pic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219315#
========
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox dead stick practice |
The 582 is liquid cooled... if your thermostat is functioning properly then shock
cooling is not an issue. I dont see a need to speed brakes. If you want to
drop like a rock, pull the nose up to about 50 mph and 2500-3000 rpm and she
falls outa the sky. I did lots of T&G's the other day at 0 degrees with no issues.
I have a clutch on the prop so I just pull the power back to idle and
fly it in. A touch of power will arrest decent rate just before touchdown.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219492#219492
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox dead stick practice |
Leonard=2C I know there has been discussion not too long ago about the pros
and cons of a clutch. You have one so I'd imagine you like having a clutch
. Are there any differences or pros that become cons or visa versa with war
m and cold weather flying with a clutch and the 582?
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford=2C IL> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox dead stick practice> From:
akflyer_2000@yahoo.com> Date: Mon=2C 15 Dec 2008 12:26:06 -0800> To: kitfo
er_2000@yahoo.com>> > The 582 is liquid cooled... if your thermostat is fun
ctioning properly then shock cooling is not an issue. I dont see a need to
speed brakes. If you want to drop like a rock=2C pull the nose up to about
50 mph and 2500-3000 rpm and she falls outa the sky. I did lots of T&G's th
e other day at 0 degrees with no issues. I have a clutch on the prop so I j
ust pull the power back to idle and fly it in. A touch of power will arrest
decent rate just before touchdown.> > --------> DO NOT ARCHIVE> Leonard Pe
rry> Soldotna AK> Avid "=3BC"=3B / Mk IV > 582 IVO IFA> Full Lotus
1260> As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes
over.> > hander outer of humorless darwin awards> > > > > Read this topic o
nline here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219492#219492>
===================> > >
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox dead stick practice |
The pros, dang near everything. Startup and warm up is super smooth becuase you
are not turning that big prop. The engine if perfectly happy with a 1500-1800
RPM warm up with no shaking.
The one and only con that is always in my head is the fact that I cant prop the
engine should I find myself in the middle of nowhere with a dead battery. I
just make sure I don't go out alone to real remote spots and shut it down. I
am thinking about tossing a small solar panel in the emergency gear bag just for
giggles.. I need tail weight anyway.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219502#219502
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| Subject: | RE: Kitfox dead stick practice |
Ed,
I say forget the air brake. Kitfoxes (kitfoxii?) are pretty draggy to
start with and besides, they love to slip. Slipping is at least as good as
the air brakes on the glider.
Randy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed Gray
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 12:12 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: RE: Kitfox dead stick practice
Interesting posts on "dead stick" practice. My K II is still 2-3 months
from completion so this is all theoretical now. I am glider rated and would
probably practice engine off landings on a big glider field near Dallas. My
question re engine cooling (582); do you shock cool the engine more with a
long glide at idle (folks say the 582 likes a 2000 rpm idle) or by turning
the engine off and stopping the prop? Are 582s typically easy to air start
with electric starter? And, has anyone devised wing tip extensions to
increase the l/d of a Kitfox? Removing the tips and plugging in a 5 foot
tapered extension would be an easy mod if you like to tinker. Finally, do
the KF II flaps function as well as an air brake to keep engine temps up?
The air brake I have in mind is a simple flap mounted on the aft float
brackets activated by a pull cable. Since I fly a turbo Mooney, I rely a
lot on my air brakes. Good views on the list!
Do not archive
Ed Gray, Dallas, KF II 582 nearing completion
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Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 1:59 AM
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Total Messages Posted Sun 12/14/08: 19
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Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:25 AM - Re: Dead stick practice (Michel Verheughe)
2. 05:27 AM - dead stick landing (bob noffs)
3. 05:48 AM - Re: first flight on skis this year (Catz631@aol.com)
4. 06:45 AM - Re: Re: Dead stick practice (Lynn Matteson)
5. 07:01 AM - Re: Re: Dead stick practice (Lynn Matteson)
6. 07:08 AM - Re: dead stick landing (Lynn Matteson)
7. 07:31 AM - Re: Re: first flight on skis this year (Lynn Matteson)
8. 09:02 AM - Re: dead stick landing (Roger Lee)
9. 09:15 AM - Re: first flight on skis this year (akflyer)
10. 10:03 AM - Re: Dead stick practice (815TL)
11. 10:19 AM - Re: Re: Dead stick practice (Rexinator)
12. 10:24 AM - Soaring (was: Dead stick practice) (Michael Gibbs)
13. 10:25 AM - Re: Re: Dead stick practice (Rexinator)
14. 10:25 AM - Re: Re: Dead stick practice (Randy Daughenbaugh)
15. 10:42 AM - Re: Re: dead stick landing (Lynn Matteson)
16. 11:36 AM - Re: dead stick landing (akflyer)
17. 02:59 PM - Re: Re: dead stick landing (Randy Daughenbaugh)
18. 04:11 PM - Re: Dead stick practice (Lynn Matteson)
19. 08:52 PM - Engine out soaring (James Shumaker)
________________________________ Message 1
_____________________________________
Time: 12:25:34 AM PST US
From: Michel Verheughe <michel@online.no>
Subject: Kitfox-List: RE: Dead stick practice
> From: gary.algate@sandvik.com
> When I was on Skis and lived on a lake in Canada I would switch of at
> about 3,00ft over the lake and glide around and practice my spot landings.
... Aha! Wasn't it you who gave me the idea to do the same, Gary? It all
comes
back to me now and my wife is wrong saying that I am senile! :-)
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... flying as PAX
Do not archive
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre>
________________________________ Message 2
_____________________________________
Time: 05:27:45 AM PST US
From: "bob noffs" <icubob@newnorth.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: dead stick landing
i just gotta ask..........in a normal landing my hand is on the throttle
for an emergency go around . with a dead stick landing do i keep a hand
on the ignition switch?
bob noffs
________________________________ Message 3
_____________________________________
Time: 05:48:35 AM PST US
From: Catz631@aol.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: first flight on skis this year
Leonard,
Fantastic pictures !!! Makes me shiver looking at them. I sure love Alaska
and really enjoyed Soldotna when I was passing through that area of the
"Banana Belt" I just installed VG's on my model 4. It appears you have the
same
pointed ones that I do. I sure want to try them out but am waiting for my
repacked
chute from BRS to return so that I can finish off my annual. Do you notice
any difference in your aircraft?
Dick Maddux
Fox 4-1200
Pensacola,Fl
**************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail,
Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. The NEW
________________________________ Message 4
_____________________________________
Time: 06:45:48 AM PST US
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Dead stick practice
When you say "usually" Pat, of the two.....that is TWO....dead stick
(and I mean DEAD stick....(some people writing about this recently
consider idle speed to be dead stick...I'm calling propellor
*stopped* dead stick...not idling, not windmiling...STOPPED, as in
not moving) ) landings that I've made, the "engine blown up, not
producing power, windmilling at first, then stopped" landing was a
seat of the pants landing that began at 1000'AGL and was a normal
downwind, base, and final approach, over a road, avoiding a tree (not
a factor), and glide into a wheat field, all based on previous visual
determinations of hundreds of landings at various types of airports,
mostly grass, with various factors involved...lakes, streams, swamps,
hills, trees, buildings, power lines, some with my instructor holding
his hand over the airspeed indicator (a few times), once with the
instructor slipping it down to maybe 200' AGL then giving it back to
me (saying, "I was just messing with you") and having me finish it
up, into undulating runways which might or might not run up or
downhill, and which might or might not have snow on them....now,
where was I?
...oh, yeah, of the two dead stickers, I only had to slip it in on
this last one, because I felt like I was a bit high, then realized I
had slowed it a bit too much in the slip and had to point it down
after I cleared the 50'-60' trees near the end of the runway, to pick
up some speed, then leveled off and landed normally.
I normally slip it when I'm too high, or have to bring it in over
some trees.
There is a place about 20 miles from home (our Saturday morning
coffee and lie-telling gathering place) where there are 50'-70' trees
at both ends of a 2400' strip, and I mean right AT the ends, with
swamp to the south end, and a power line on the north end thrown in
for good measure. This is where I get some good slip-in practice.
I'll slip it in over the trees, then considering whether I'm landing
18 (away from the coffee house) or 36 (toward it), I'll either add
power and float toward the coffee before touching down (so I don't
have to taxi so far) , or cut the power to 800-900 rpm, and touch
down sooner and get on the brakes (so I don't have to taxi so far).
These landings usually involve getting off to the side of the runway
after touchdown, so as to avoid the planes that are following you
(sometimes at a safe distance even), or watching out for the already-
landed planes, who are taxiing toward the coffee house. We may get as
many as 18 planes (Cubs, Tri-Pacers, Aeroncas, an Ercoupe, Cessna
150's, 170's, 172's, 180's, a Midget Mustang II, Ultralights,
Stinsons, a Quail, Taylorcrafts, my Kitfox, and another that puts
mine to shame (Hi, John May) ), in there, or as few as 1...me, on
skis. :)
Anybody in the vicinity of Hanover, Michigan is welcome to "slip in"
on Saturday morning about 9:30 to about noon. Just holler and I'll
give you the coordinates.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Dec 13, 2008, at 10:10 PM, patrick reilly wrote:
> Lynn, Do you usually slip in when dead sticking to keep plenty of
> speed. If your gliding in from a distance at a slow speed and
> misjudge, you can run out of energy. 1700' might not sound like
> alot of runway. But, with a plane that can be landed in a few
> hundred feet, 1700' is quite a long field as long as your using the
> whole runway. Most of my flight has been in an ultralite that
> stalled at 19 mph. You never worried about not enough runway. As a
> matter of fact, you could do as many touch and goes on 1 landing as
> you wanted to on almost any field.
>
> Pat Reilly
> Mod 3 582 Rebuild
> Rockford, IL
>
> > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Dead stick practice
> > From: dmivezic@yahoo.com
> > Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 18:38:07 -0800
> > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> >
> >
> > The way I see it, any way you do it you are taking a risk.
> >
> > Lynn's practice is risky but he'll be well qualified to save
> himself, his passenger, and his aircraft when the engine decides to
> quit without a guaranteed landing strip within gliding distance.
> >
> > On the other hand, killing your perfectly good engine to practice
> a dead-stick is tempting fate if you are not trained and
> proficient. The catch-22 is if you can't do it under a controlled
> situation then you probably won't be able to when everything goes
> to hell.
> >
> > My only armchair quarterbacking of Lynn's practice is that I
> wouldn't do it on a 1700' field. I'd go with a 3000' or 4000' field
> and pick a point about 1000' down the runway to aim for. If I run
> out of energy then I'd still have room to safely land short. If I'm
> too fast then an extra 1000' or 2000' will come in handy.
> >
> > Great topic for discussion. Thanks Lynn.
> >
> > --------
> > Dave
> > Speedster 912 UL
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219270#219270
> >
> >
> >============
> >
> >
> >
>
> ============================================================ _-
> ============================================================ _-
> ==========================================================
________________________________ Message 5
_____________________________________
Time: 07:01:27 AM PST US
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Dead stick practice
Exactly....thanks, Dave. I advocate flying into different
airfields, strips, whatever, (as long as it's a known airfield),
especially if it doesn't have the familiar cones, windsocks, tower,
runway markings, etc., that key into our minds the familiar picture
of the landing process. This helps us determine where the field
begins and ends, and allows us to visualize those markings if we need
them, or allows us to be able to land without those "crutches." Don't
get me wrong, those markings are necessary for some folks, but
practicing without them is where the real-world emergency training
comes in.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Dec 13, 2008, at 9:38 PM, crazyivan wrote:
>
(snip)
> On the other hand, killing your perfectly good engine to practice a
> dead-stick is tempting fate if you are not trained and proficient.
> The catch-22 is if you can't do it under a controlled situation
> then you probably won't be able to when everything goes to hell.
>
(snip)
> --------
> Dave
> Speedster 912 UL
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219270#219270
>
>
________________________________ Message 6
_____________________________________
Time: 07:08:03 AM PST US
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: dead stick landing
Only if ya got another one handy! : )
When I had to land with the engine broken, I had one hand on the
stick, and the other on my "private parts"...the throttle wasn't
going to help me any, the ignition switch wasn't going to help me
any...come to think of it, I'm single, divorced, retired, with no
immediate future need for those private parts, so why didn't I just
cover my eyes with that extra hand? See? That's why we need to
practice, practice, practice....think, think, think....
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Dec 14, 2008, at 8:26 AM, bob noffs wrote:
> i just gotta ask..........in a normal landing my hand is on the
> throttle for an emergency go around . with a dead stick landing do
> i keep a hand on the ignition switch?
>
> bob noffs
> ============================================================ _-
> ============================================================ _-
> ==========================================================
________________________________ Message 7
_____________________________________
Time: 07:31:18 AM PST US
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: first flight on skis this year
Leonard-
Are these skis the 13.5" x 60" skis? They don't look that wide, or
are you talking total width of the two skis as being 13.5''....each
being 6.75" wide?
If so, they don't look that narrow. But they look closer to 6.75"
than to 13.5" each.
Also, in the one picture, I see a runway marked with what looks like
"7S" ...is that for "snow"? (I'm gonna probably regret asking this
dumb question.) : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
do not archive
On Dec 13, 2008, at 11:49 PM, akflyer wrote:
>
> I can think of more time on skis that I wanted to have directional
> control and the ability to yank hard back on the stick and sink
> that tail wheel in to stop, than I wanted more flotation. You can
> give it a little down to get the tail out of the snow... I ended
> not going to work due to mechanical issues with the charter 727 so
> I got to play on ski's today. I was very happy with them and the
> way she flew today. Got in 2.5 hrs in 0 degree temps and was nice
> and roasty in my snowmachine gear and the muffler heater.
>
> --------
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
> Leonard Perry
> Soldotna AK
> Avid "C" / Mk IV
> 582 IVO IFA
> Full Lotus 1260
> As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis
> takes over.
>
> hander outer of humorless darwin awards
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219282#219282
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc02155_173.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc02150_100.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc02143_557.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc02141_521.jpg
>
>
________________________________ Message 8
_____________________________________
Time: 09:02:20 AM PST US
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: dead stick landing
From: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1@yahoo.com>
Once you are close to landing all your attention should be focused on the
landing.
No distractions. They work out just fine. Don't over think it. Just do what
you do on any other landing. Just let it flow and relax. I like the way the
plane lands without the engine better than I do with the engine on. It has
been
that way for a dozen aircraft now.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Service Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219309#219309
________________________________ Message 9
_____________________________________
Time: 09:15:48 AM PST US
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: first flight on skis this year
From: "akflyer" <akflyer_2000@yahoo.com>
Lynn Matteson wrote:
> Leonard-
> Are these skis the 13.5" x 60" skis? They don't look that wide, or
> are you talking total width of the two skis as being 13.5'....each
> being 6.75" wide?
> If so, they don't look that narrow. But they look closer to 6.75"
> than to 13.5" each.
>
> Also, in the one picture, I see a runway marked with what looks like
> "7S" ...is that for "snow"? (I'm gonna probably regret asking this
> dumb question.) : )
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
> system;
> also building a new pair of snow skis
> do not archive
>
>
[/quote]
The actual ski is 11.5" wide (each) and I made the 1/4" UHMW bottoms 1"
wider all
the way around hence the 13.5". In reality, with the way they turn up at
the
edges, I ended up with a width just over 13" (each).
They have been changing the runways out there and put in a gravel / ski
strip this
year for us outlaws that were always landing in the grass between the runway
and taxi way. It was narrow and 3 or 4 times a summer someone would take
out
a runway light. They figured if they cant beat us then they should
accommodate
us lol. You want a challenge, try landing a cub with 31" bushwheels that
have 2-3 psi in them on asphalt with a stiff crosswind....hence the need for
the gravel runway.
I am not sure what they are thinking with the designation? 7 and 25 S may
be short?
it dang sure is not south..and in summer would not be Ski... Any normal
thinking airport commission would have called 7 and 7L. Everyone just calls
it 7 gravel and we all know what they are talking about.
Dick, I just put the VG's on yesterday morning. I screwed up and did not
fly it
on wheels before I went to skis for a fair comparison so I cant say if it is
the VG's helping out or the ski's being less drag than those 24" tires. At
any
rate, I went up and ran the gamut yesterday and was happy with them / it.
First flight stall power off and clean was about 38. Full power she would
break
about 35. full flaps power off it was a gentle break at 32.
Yesterday power off clean 34, full power at 35 I was climbing at 400'
minute, stalled
at about 30 with a ridiculously high deck angle. Full flaps it would not
break but just mush at 28.
Keep in mind that this was at 0 to -3 OAT. Initial flight and stall testing
was
done at 25 OAT.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219311#219311
________________________________ Message 10
____________________________________
Time: 10:03:17 AM PST US
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Dead stick practice
From: "815TL" <lawrenceaw@corning.com>
Has anyone actually tried to soar in a Kitfox? I have about 20 hours in
gliders.
Every landing in a glider is an emergency, you have one shot at it. So
those
of you that shut down and glide a ways, have you ever looked for any
thermals,
or ridge soar? The Schweizer 2-33s that I trained in were about the same
weight as the Kitfox, and had a lift to drag of about 18:1. The Kitfox,
with
about 12:1, and lightweight, although not perfect for soaring, should do so
quite
well. Around my area, thermals are of medium strength, but it was not
uncommon
to hit a thermal of 400-500FPM climb on a decent day.
Seems like it might be kind of fun to go up about 3000', shut down and
search for
a thermal. Knowing you can re-start and head back to your field when you
are
done, is big plus.
Andrew
Kitfox II, 815TL, Rotax 582-C
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219315#219315
________________________________ Message 11
____________________________________
Time: 10:19:05 AM PST US
From: Rexinator <rexinator@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Dead stick practice
Since there has been more detail here about the practice of true dead
stick (which I should reveal I have not really practiced yet) I think I
ought to add a bit more to the glider procedures I provided.
In gliders for the standard landing you apply half spoilers so that
you still can adjust your glide angle steeper or shallow it out as the
approach progresses. Once you touch down it's full spoilers and you stay
down. To relate that to a practice dead stick approach you might
consider the propeller drag factor at idle that reduces your glide angle
as similar to adding some amount of flaps.
I think the point is to consider the possible configurations your
aircraft may have under the conditions you might find yourself and plan
your practice to simulate those conditions. You want to give yourself a
way to adjust your glide so you have the best chance of reaching that
precise point you chose for landing. Another way for example; my flight
school taught that a certain amount of RPM equated to a stopped
propeller at V_L/D (best Lift over Drag) so that was how we practiced
engine out. (mostly for insurance reasons and FAA suggestions). There
are ways to do these things with relative safety and an instructor
should know how to figure them out. If you as a pilot are confident you
know enough to figure them out then it is your risk as always.
Paul offers excellent advice and I highly respect his input. I also
highly respect Lynn who has related his experience which shows there can
be a lot of variables to an actual emergency. Many of these are things
we may not think of as we apply our limited knowledge into practice.
Even the best instructor hasn't seen it all yet, but it's very unlikely
they will be surprised by the things we might encounter. They would
handle in stride what we might find way over our skill level. So by all
means get your instructor to challenge your comfort level. Because of
it, one day you might still be around to thank him. I know I'll need a
lot of remedial training once I start flying again.
Rex
M2 582
Colorado
Lynn Matteson wrote:
>
> When you say "usually" Pat, of the two.....that is TWO....dead stick
> (and I mean DEAD stick....(some people writing about this recently
> consider idle speed to be dead stick...I'm calling propellor *stopped*
> dead stick...not idling, not windmiling...STOPPED, as in not moving)
> ) landings that I've made, the "engine blown up, not producing power,
> windmilling at first, then stopped" landing was a seat of the pants
> landing that began at 1000'AGL and was a normal downwind, base, and
> final approach, over a road, avoiding a tree (not a factor), and glide
> into a wheat field, all based on previous visual determinations of
> hundreds of landings at various types of airports, mostly grass, with
> various factors involved...lakes, streams, swamps, hills, trees,
> buildings, power lines, some with my instructor holding his hand over
> the airspeed indicator (a few times), once with the instructor
> slipping it down to maybe 200' AGL then giving it back to me (saying,
> "I was just messing with you") and having me finish it up, into
> undulating runways which might or might not run up or downhill, and
> which might or might not have snow on them....now, where was I?
> ...oh, yeah, of the two dead stickers, I only had to slip it in on
> this last one, because I felt like I was a bit high, then realized I
> had slowed it a bit too much in the slip and had to point it down
> after I cleared the 50'-60' trees near the end of the runway, to pick
> up some speed, then leveled off and landed normally.
> I normally slip it when I'm too high, or have to bring it in over some
> trees.
>
> There is a place about 20 miles from home (our Saturday morning coffee
> and lie-telling gathering place) where there are 50'-70' trees at both
> ends of a 2400' strip, and I mean right AT the ends, with swamp to the
> south end, and a power line on the north end thrown in for good
> measure. This is where I get some good slip-in practice. I'll slip it
> in over the trees, then considering whether I'm landing 18 (away from
> the coffee house) or 36 (toward it), I'll either add power and float
> toward the coffee before touching down (so I don't have to taxi so
> far) , or cut the power to 800-900 rpm, and touch down sooner and get
> on the brakes (so I don't have to taxi so far). These landings usually
> involve getting off to the side of the runway after touchdown, so as
> to avoid the planes that are following you (sometimes at a safe
> distance even), or watching out for the already-landed planes, who are
> taxiing toward the coffee house. We may get as many as 18 planes
> (Cubs, Tri-Pacers, Aeroncas, an Ercoupe, Cessna 150's, 170's, 172's,
> 180's, a Midget Mustang II, Ultralights, Stinsons, a Quail,
> Taylorcrafts, my Kitfox, and another that puts mine to shame (Hi, John
> May) ), in there, or as few as 1...me, on skis. :)
>
> Anybody in the vicinity of Hanover, Michigan is welcome to "slip in"
> on Saturday morning about 9:30 to about noon. Just holler and I'll
> give you the coordinates.
>
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
> system;
> also building a new pair of snow skis
________________________________ Message 12
____________________________________
Time: 10:24:34 AM PST US
From: Michael Gibbs <MichaelGibbs@cox.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Soaring (was: Dead stick practice)
Andrew asks:
>Has anyone actually tried to soar in a Kitfox?
Yes, I've done it. Even though my Model IV was in the Speedster
configuration with the clipped wings, I was surprised by how much
upward vertical speed she could capture from tight turns within a
thermal. It was a warm day here in the desert and the air was moving
up and down more than left and right, so I decided to see what would
happen.
I didn't make note of the specifics, but starting around 4000 agl and
holding the airspeed right around Vy I was able to operate on wind
power and remain above my initial altitude for nearly 15 minutes
before deciding to head back. I'm sure I could have stayed much
longer but it was getting late.
Mike G.
N72KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster
Phoenix, AZ
________________________________ Message 13
____________________________________
Time: 10:25:28 AM PST US
From: Rexinator <rexinator@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Dead stick practice
Hey Andrew, Looks like you might be a good candidate for it. If no one
reports first, give it a try and tell us how it went. I'd be interested
since we have the same model and engine.
Rex
M2 582-C
Colorado
815TL wrote:
>
> Has anyone actually tried to soar in a Kitfox? I have about 20 hours in
gliders.
Every landing in a glider is an emergency, you have one shot at it. So
those of you that shut down and glide a ways, have you ever looked for any
thermals,
or ridge soar? The Schweizer 2-33s that I trained in were about the same
weight as the Kitfox, and had a lift to drag of about 18:1. The Kitfox,
with
about 12:1, and lightweight, although not perfect for soaring, should do so
quite well. Around my area, thermals are of medium strength, but it was
not
uncommon to hit a thermal of 400-500FPM climb on a decent day.
>
> Seems like it might be kind of fun to go up about 3000', shut down and
search
for a thermal. Knowing you can re-start and head back to your field when
you
are done, is big plus.
>
> Andrew
> Kitfox II, 815TL, Rotax 582-C
>
>
>
________________________________ Message 14
____________________________________
Time: 10:25:58 AM PST US
From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Dead stick practice
Andrew,
I like to play glider with my series 5/7, 776 lbs. Lowest sink rate is
about 600ft/min at 60 mph. I have held at zero sink rate for a few minutes,
but so far have never gotten into positive territory. I do have big tires
which can't help any.
I have talked to others who do this and some claim some success. I really
don't believe I have hit any good thermals yet. I usually fly in the
relatively still air early or late in the day.
I used to fly gliders in Boulder Colorado and had both good thermals and
something wave lift there.
Randy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of 815TL
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 11:03 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Dead stick practice
Has anyone actually tried to soar in a Kitfox? I have about 20 hours in
gliders. Every landing in a glider is an emergency, you have one shot at
it. So those of you that shut down and glide a ways, have you ever looked
for any thermals, or ridge soar? The Schweizer 2-33s that I trained in were
about the same weight as the Kitfox, and had a lift to drag of about 18:1.
The Kitfox, with about 12:1, and lightweight, although not perfect for
soaring, should do so quite well. Around my area, thermals are of medium
strength, but it was not uncommon to hit a thermal of 400-500FPM climb on a
decent day.
Seems like it might be kind of fun to go up about 3000', shut down and
search for a thermal. Knowing you can re-start and head back to your field
when you are done, is big plus.
Andrew
Kitfox II, 815TL, Rotax 582-C
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219315#219315
________________________________ Message 15
____________________________________
Time: 10:42:33 AM PST US
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: dead stick landing
Ya mean I shouldn't be taking pictures of my landings...the way I did
here at Wendover Utah? Shucks, Rog, where's the fun in that?
Seriously, I DO understand what you're saying, and for the most part
I agree, but maybe a bit of relaxing the sphincter might help us make
better landings?
By the way, I did finally correct for the "off the centerline" runway
line-up, and put her down pretty good. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
do not archive
On Dec 14, 2008, at 12:01 PM, Roger Lee wrote:
>
> Once you are close to landing all your attention should be focused
> on the landing. No distractions. They work out just fine. Don't
> over think it. Just do what you do on any other landing. Just let
> it flow and relax. I like the way the plane lands without the
> engine better than I do with the engine on. It has been that way
> for a dozen aircraft now.
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Service Center
> 520-574-1080
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219309#219309
>
>
________________________________ Message 16
____________________________________
Time: 11:36:04 AM PST US
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: dead stick landing
From: "akflyer" <akflyer_2000@yahoo.com>
I am just gonna take a shot in the dark here and say it seems that alot of
the
nay sayers dont get out and fly much. I put on a few hundred hours a year
minimum
and dont feel all the stress that is conveyed here.
Heck, the FAA paperwork on mine calls it a motor glider?
The way I see it is if you are current, proficient, and want to practice
deadstick
landings, then by all means hone your skills as long as you use a tad bit
of common sense.
Now if you have not flown in years (other than your keyboard) and are on
your first
flight in a coons age, deadstick practice just may get you an "award" that
I am so fond of "handing out" lol.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219328#219328
________________________________ Message 17
____________________________________
Time: 02:59:00 PM PST US
From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" <rjdaugh@rapidnet.com>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: dead stick landing
Leonard,
Your post reminds me of the report a while back of a guy who says landings
are dangerous. His solution was to not practice them. Just make the
minimum amount of landings needed.
B-)
Randy
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of akflyer
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 12:35 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: dead stick landing
I am just gonna take a shot in the dark here and say it seems that alot of
the nay sayers dont get out and fly much. I put on a few hundred hours a
year minimum and dont feel all the stress that is conveyed here.
Heck, the FAA paperwork on mine calls it a motor glider?
The way I see it is if you are current, proficient, and want to practice
deadstick landings, then by all means hone your skills as long as you use a
tad bit of common sense.
Now if you have not flown in years (other than your keyboard) and are on
your first flight in a coons age, deadstick practice just may get you an
"award" that I am so fond of "handing out" lol.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219328#219328
________________________________ Message 18
____________________________________
Time: 04:11:09 PM PST US
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Dead stick practice
Sounds like fun, Gary....you got a game plan on when you'll be back
over here to try some more of that? And by the way, how did you get
your Kitfox over there in Oz? I think you mentioned it, but I've
forgotten. This would be a refresher course for others who might like
to ship their planes.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
do not archive
On Dec 13, 2008, at 4:53 PM, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote:
>
> Hmm - not sure I agree with this one. However it depends upon
> location. When I was on Skis and lived on a lake in Canada I would
> switch of at about 3,00ft over the lake and glide around and
> practice my spot landings. It was great practice and i was amazed
> how far I was out when I first started.
>
> After a while it became very easy to control my descent and use
> slips etc to land "on the numbers".
>
> The only caveat here is I had basically unlimited area to land and
> if I landed long or short it made no difference
>
> I learned a lot from that!
>
> Gary
>
> Gary Algate
> SMC, Exploration
> Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
>
>
> This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the
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> kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the
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> This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we
> have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe
> and happy Christmas".
>
>
> Catz631@aol.com
> Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> 14/12/2008 01:05 AM
> Please respond to
> kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
> To
> kitfox-list@matronics.com
> cc
> Subject
> Re: Kitfox-List: Dead stick practice
>
>
> Lynn,
> I just have to say this (at the risk of being called an old
> lady )! Please don't practice dead stick landings. I had expected
> someone to already bring this up but it hasn't happened. Practicing
> deadsticks is a good way to smash your airplane into pieces. As an
> example we had a guy at our field (Navy student) who decided to
> practice an engine out in a Yankee(nice airplane) so he came over
> the field at high key, low key final and promptly crashed his
> airplane on the field. He was OK but the plane was totaled. If
> something happens enroute or you misjudge, or the engine doesn't
> start, you are screwed. I have had three dead sticks in my Kitfox.
> All occurred on final when the engine quit due to low idle rpm on
> my engine. I now have that resolved. This happened when I first
> bought the aircraft and I must admit it does glide good. The first
> dead stick (have had many since) for me was in a T-28 which
> occurred when the master rod broke at 3000 feet. I glided that one
> to NAS whiting field and landed 500 ft short of the runway on the
> grass. That airplane is now on static display. The military and
> flight schools have long given up actual dead stick landings as too
> many aircraft were destroyed. One more thing and I will leave you
> alone.( as I highly respect your writing) Glider training will
> absolutely help out a sport or any other pilot. You will learn more
> about your aircraft then you could have imagined and the training
> will apply to any aircraft! ( I even used it in flying P-3's over
> mountainous terrain and on approaches) There, I have said it and I
> am done. It would bother me if one of our new pilots decided to
> shut his engine down to glide around, misjudged and then crunched
> his airplane (besides, rapid cooling is not good on the engine)
> Dick
> Maddux
> Fox
> 4-1200
> 912UL
>
> Pensacola,Fl
>
>
> One site keeps you connected to all your emailw-
> dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000019">The NEW AOL.com.
>
>
> ==========================================================
________________________________ Message 19
____________________________________
Time: 08:52:17 PM PST US
From: James Shumaker <jimshumaker@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Engine out soaring
Andrew=0A=0AYes I have soared my Kitfox.- I did it locally when a light f
rontal system was moving through.- As someone mentioned, the Kitfox sink
rate is not all that great so it takes some pretty strong uplift to soar, b
ut it is very easy to turn and core the thermals.- Not so good in ridge l
ift because of the sink rate.- Also the penetration between thermals is n
ot great because of the drag of the struts and stuff.- =0A=0AJim Shumaker
=0AKitfox III 912ul=0ASalinas, CA=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A___________________________
_____=0AFrom: 815TL <lawrenceaw@corning.com>=0ATo: kitfox-list@matronics.co
m=0ASent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 10:02:34 AM=0ASubject: Kitfox-List: Re:
nceaw@corning.com>=0A=0AHas anyone actually tried to soar in a Kitfox?- I
have about 20 hours in gliders.- Every landing in a glider is an emergen
cy, you have one shot at it.- So those of you that shut down and glide a
ways, have you ever looked for any thermals, or ridge soar?- The Schweize
r 2-33s that I trained in were about the same weight as the Kitfox, and had
a lift to drag of about 18:1.- The Kitfox, with about 12:1, and lightwei
ght, although not perfect for soaring, should do so quite well.- Around m
y area, thermals are of medium strength, but it was not uncommon to hit a t
hermal of 400-500FPM climb on a decent day.=0A=0ASeems like it might be kin
d of fun to go up about 3000', shut down and search for a thermal.- Knowi
ng you can re-start and head back to your field when you are done, is big p
lus.=0A=0AAndrew=0AKitfox II, 815TL, Rotax 582-C=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this to
pic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219315#
========
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Dead stick practice -Gimli Glider OT |
There was a plane, I'm not sure what type that glided over a hundred miles
to land dead stick in the Azores after a fuel leak in one of the engines
emptied the tanks. The runway in the Azores ends with a considerable three
figure drop! The plane landed hard enough to blow all the tires and break
several wheels!
Do not archive.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rexinator
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 10:27 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Dead stick practice -Gimli Glider
Excellent point, I wish I had remembered it. Here's a good account of
that incident:
http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=744
Rex
Ken Potter wrote:
>
> For those Canucks out there or others who may remember the "Gimli Glider"
occurrence. An Air Canada 767 was en-route from Ottawa to Edmonton when it
ran out of fuel over Manitoba in ??? 1983??? Without going into details,
the pilot landed the aircraft on an abandoned airstrip at Gimli Manitoba
dead stick. As it turns out, the pilot did some things with the aircraft
(cross control forward slips and such) that Boeing said could not be done.
> He had extensive experience as a glider pilot. I suspect there is no
greater testimonial to spending some time on gliders than this....
> Cheers'
> Ken
>
> --------
> Ken Potter
> Model II, No. 483
> Rotax 582, C-Box,
> 98% Complete
> C-FJKP (marks reserved)
> Lanark, Ontario
>
>
Message 11
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On Mon, December 15, 2008 1:47 pm, akflyer wrote:
> The one and only con that is always in my head is the fact that I cant prop the
engine
> should I find myself in the middle of nowhere with a dead battery. I just make
sure I
> don't go out alone to real remote spots and shut it down. I am thinking about
tossing
> a small solar panel in the emergency gear bag just for giggles.. I need tail
weight
> anyway.
I wonder if there is a rope starter available or some way a simple recoil starter
could be incorporated? Isn't that how the smaller ones are started on ultralights?
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
Message 12
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| Subject: | Deadstick Landing |
Noel,
Enjoying this thread.
The landing you referred to was a Canadian Air Transat Airbus-330 back
in 01. They ran out of fuel due to a fuel leak and messed up by not
following the proper procedures. However, they did a great job of
flying the airliner to safety. I know they don't normally practice
this in airline training, however at my airline we did have the
opportunity to experience it and attempt a landing in the sim. The
Canadair Regional jet flies nicely on NO engines, but it does have a
massive sink rate and impressive forward speed requirement, but I
digress. Here's a link to one of the many reports on the Air Transat
incident.
http://www.iasa.com.au/folders/Safety_Issues/others/azoresdeadstick.html
Rick Weiss
N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS
SkyStar S/N 1
Port Orange, FL
BTW, it was 80 degrees today and the it's supposed to be that way the
rest of the week. Cold Weather starts here are for temps in the
50's:-) Come visit!
Message 13
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| Subject: | Dead stick practice |
I think practicing deadstick on large transport category aircraft on limited
runways...probably a bad idea.
Practicing deadstick just about anywhere you have level ground... or water
(floats ) a good idea.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Dead stick practice
I respect what you have to say, Dick, and I'll take it under
advisement. Let's see what others have to say on the subject...and
I'll also see what my flight instructor says when I tell him what I
did. I know that 6 months ago, to maybe a year, there was a lot of
talk here about *doing* them, and I thought the consensus was that it
was a good thing. I know that at the time, I hadn't done any, and
thought that at that time these guys were nuts...kinda like the old
saying "why would you want to jump out of a perfectly good
airplane?" (sky diving) Thanks for speaking up.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Dec 13, 2008, at 9:28 AM, Catz631@aol.com wrote:
> Lynn,
> I just have to say this (at the risk of being called an old
> lady )! Please don't practice dead stick landings. I had expected
> someone to already bring this up but it hasn't happened. Practicing
> deadsticks is a good way to smash your airplane into pieces. As an
> example we had a guy at our field (Navy student) who decided to
> practice an engine out in a Yankee(nice airplane) so he came over
> the field at high key, low key final and promptly crashed his
> airplane on the field. He was OK but the plane was totaled. If
> something happens enroute or you misjudge, or the engine doesn't
> start, you are screwed. I have had three dead sticks in my Kitfox.
> All occurred on final when the engine quit due to low idle rpm on
> my engine. I now have that resolved. This happened when I first
> bought the aircraft and I must admit it does glide good. The first
> dead stick (have had many since) for me was in a T-28 which
> occurred when the master rod broke at 3000 feet. I glided that one
> to NAS whiting field and landed 500 ft short of the runway on the
> grass. That airplane is now on static display. The military and
> flight schools have long given up actual dead stick landings as too
> many aircraft were destroyed. One more thing and I will leave you
> alone.( as I highly respect your writing) Glider training will
> absolutely help out a sport or any other pilot. You will learn more
> about your aircraft then you could have imagined and the training
> will apply to any aircraft! ( I even used it in flying P-3's over
> mountainous terrain and on approaches) There, I have said it and I
> am done. It would bother me if one of our new pilots decided to
> shut his engine down to glide around, misjudged and then crunched
> his airplane (besides, rapid cooling is not good on the engine)
> Dick
> Maddux
> Fox
> 4-1200
> 912UL
>
> Pensacola,Fl
>
>
> One site keeps you connected to all your emailw-
> dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000019">The NEW AOL.com.
> ===========================================================
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox dead stick practice |
Well Leonard, there is that engine-out, freewheeling prop-scenario that's
-got to be a disadvantage. I've got the clutch and I love it except for t
hat one nagging what-if. Has anyone ever dead-sticked a 582 with the prop c
lutch? I'm gonna try it someday but I don't really want to go first.
-
Also, at least in my case I've found it impossible to adjust the idle below
2400 rpm, but that's a whole other discussion.
-
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch
--- On Mon, 12/15/08, akflyer <akflyer_2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: akflyer <akflyer_2000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox dead stick practice
<akflyer_2000@yahoo.com>
The pros, dang near everything. Startup and warm up is super smooth becuas
e
you are not turning that big prop. The engine if perfectly happy with a
1500-1800 RPM warm up with no shaking.
The one and only con that is always in my head is the fact that I cant prop
the
engine should I find myself in the middle of nowhere with a dead battery.
I
just make sure I don't go out alone to real remote spots and shut it down.
I am thinking about tossing a small solar panel in the emergency gear bag j
ust
for giggles.. I need tail weight anyway.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219502#219502
=0A=0A=0A
Message 15
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|
I bought a GPL starter to put on it so I could have electric start with a recoil
backup, but the engine mount and firewall would have to be reworked to make
it fit.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219557#219557
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox dead stick practice |
if you pull the power off, and the nose up the prop will disengage and the engine
goes back to a 1600 rpm idle. At that point for all practical purposes, you
are dead stick as the prop and engine are no longer a functioning team...
Don't worry you wont be the first to do it, I do it all the time.
If you come back in with power it will re-engage without all the nasty (theoretic)
side effects that were brought up in the other thread. At some point, one
must stop thinking about possibilities (time to get a dig in at inquiring engineering
minds LOL) and go for it, 99% of the time the nightmares you dream up
don't really happen, if you are a lucky one percent'er, then you get to enjoy
the dead stick skills you have not practiced, so it really does become an emergency
instead of a semi routine senario.
Weather permitting, I will take the bird out tomorrow and video the nice smooth
cold weather start, an in air disengagement and subsequent landing as well as
an in air re-engagement of the prop without the engine being ripped from the
mounts or gear box departing the plane.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219558#219558
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