Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:26 AM - Re: Re: Dead stick practice (W Duke)
2. 05:48 AM - Engine out in experimental aircraft (Catz631@aol.com)
3. 05:54 AM - Re: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic (Jim_and_Lucy Chuk)
4. 07:17 AM - dead stick landings (bob noffs)
5. 07:27 AM - Re: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic (Lynn Matteson)
6. 07:32 AM - Re: Re: Dead stick practice (Jim Crowder)
7. 07:58 AM - Re: Re: CHT's (Lynn Matteson)
8. 08:16 AM - Re: Re: Dead stick practice (Lynn Matteson)
9. 08:36 AM - Re: Re: Dead stick practice (patrick reilly)
10. 08:40 AM - Re: Re: Dead stick practice (Guy Buchanan)
11. 08:40 AM - Re: Re: Dead stick practice (Guy Buchanan)
12. 08:40 AM - Re: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic (Guy Buchanan)
13. 09:07 AM - Re: Re: CHT's (Jim Crowder)
14. 09:43 AM - Re: Re: Dead stick practice (Noel Loveys)
15. 10:08 AM - Emergency landing survey (Lowell Fitt)
16. 11:25 AM - Re: Emergency landing survey (Lynn Matteson)
17. 12:13 PM - Engine failures and other nasty stuff. (Noel Loveys)
18. 01:16 PM - Kitfox on Skis (Paul A. Franz, P.E.)
19. 03:24 PM - Re: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic (Lynn Matteson)
20. 03:25 PM - Re: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic (Lynn Matteson)
21. 03:54 PM - kitfox III 582 rotax grayhead (William Malpass)
22. 05:08 PM - Re: kitfox III 582 rotax grayhead (akflyer)
23. 05:58 PM - Re: Emergency landing survey (Jim_and_Lucy Chuk)
24. 06:58 PM - Re: Kitfox on Skis (Noel Loveys)
25. 07:35 PM - Re: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic (patrick reilly)
26. 08:08 PM - Re: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic (Lynn Matteson)
27. 08:13 PM - Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic (akflyer)
28. 08:49 PM - Re: Kitfox on Skis (gary.algate@sandvik.com)
29. 08:49 PM - Re: Re: CHT's (gary.algate@sandvik.com)
30. 09:44 PM - Re: Kitfox on Skis (Guy Buchanan)
31. 10:23 PM - skis (Paul Franz - Merlin GT)
32. 11:27 PM - Re: Slipping with Flaps (rudderdancer)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Dead stick practice |
Continental IO240 450 hours.- So far no engine failure.- Now that I hav
e said it out loud I have my fingers crossed.
Maxwell Duke
S6/TD/IO240
Dublin, GA
--- On Sat, 12/20/08, Lowell Fitt <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
From: Lowell Fitt <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Dead stick practice
<lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
Mike brings up an interesting issue - engine failures in experimantal
airplanes. There are lots of airplanes in this catagory and lots of engine
types. Since this a Kitfox based forum - avid also and similar types, I w
ould
like to pose the question:
How many engine outs resulting in forced landings have each of us had and h
ow
many are we aware of with friends or local folks. To keep it relevant, th
ese
have to be airplanes that have an Experimental Airworthiness Certificate -
not
ultralights or powered parachutes, etc.
To begin, I can think of one, mine but technically the engine never quit.
I
think I can recall one other from the list, but to avoid duplications of th
e
data, I will wait for that person to chime in if he wants to.
As in the aircraft Models, landing gear and engine survey of times past, I
would be willing to spreadsheet the data and make it available to the list.
My experience both personal and hearsay, can not justify Mikes statement th
at
"the engine failure statistics for experimantal airplanes are very
high".
Lowell
----- Original Message ----- From: "JetPilot"
<orcabonita@hotmail.com>
Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 8:41 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Dead stick practice
<orcabonita@hotmail.com>
>
>
> Dick Maddux wrote:
>>
>> The military and flight schools have long given up actual dead stick
landings as too many aircraft were destroyed.
>>
>
>
> Dick,
>
> The word dishonest was not the correct word to use, I was not trying to
question your ethics. The point I was trying to make was that yours was no
t a
fair comparison, and that is the terminology I should have used. I apologi
ze
for the misunderstanding it caused. This seems to have eclipsed the very
important issue of practicing actual engine out landings. The engine failu
re
statistics for experimental aircraft are very high, and it is even more
important for us to be prepared for this emergency than even Cessna and oth
er GA
pilots.
>
> The military flight schools have long given up on actual dead stick
landings because the modern military except for a few rare exceptions, fly
turbine engined airplanes. Turbine engine failures are extremely rare, and
shutting down the engines in flight in a turbine powered airplane in flight
is
so dangerous that it is not an acceptable or practical training method.
>
> Practicing deadstick landings in Kitfox aircraft does not in any compare
to practicing deadstick landings in high performance military aircraft. Kit
fox
airplanes fly very well with no engine, and have no problem flying all the
way
to touchdown without power. There is little difference between landing a
Kitfox deadstick, and landing a sailplane. The kitfox and the sailplane ha
ve
about the same landing speeds, and both airplanes fly and land just fine wi
th no
power. At least in the Kitfox, you do have the option of restarting the e
ngine
if you want to. Sailplane pilots do this every day with NO options like th
is.
>
> It is very easy to say, " I saw a guy crash practicing deadstick
landings, and have come to the conclusion that it is a bad idea." The more
intelligent and thoughtful thing to do would be to look further into the is
sue,
and consider how many airplanes each year are needlessly are crashed, and h
ow
many people are hurt in experimental airplanes because pilots were NOT trai
ned
adequately, and not prepared for the day his engine quit. I have read of m
any
crashes in our class of airplanes because the pilot was not prepared for an
engine failure. Training accidents happen, that does not mean we should s
top
training.
>
> Mike
>
> --------
> "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast
as you could have !!!
>
> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220246#220246
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
=0A=0A=0A
Message 2
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| Subject: | Engine out in experimental aircraft |
Lowell if you decide to make a spreadsheet for experimentals( other aircraft
not included) you can count me in for two engine failures. One was in a "Der
Jaeger"(biplane) that one I put back on the runway with no damage. The other
was a Pitts which I ended up putting upside down in a field (it was destroyed)
Both happened on take off.
Dick Maddux
Fox 4
Pensacola ,Fl
**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
steps!
cemailfooterNO62)
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic |
You are so right Leni=2C and actually where I landed it was okey=2C but I g
ot into trouble after I landed and was taxieng to another part of the lake.
I also watch for fresh snowmobile tracks to see if they are filling with
water from there being slush. Take care=2C Jim Chuk Avid MK IV Mn> Sub
ject: Kitfox-List: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic> From: akflyer_
2000@yahoo.com> Date: Fri=2C 19 Dec 2008 21:14:14 -0800> To: kitfox-list@ma
ahoo.com>> > [quote="thesupe(at)hotmail.com"]Hi Lynn C=EF=BD After I l
anded C I taxied into=EF=BDabout 3" of =EF=BDslush that I didn't see
under about 10" of snow.=EF=BD When the slush hit the prop C it chipped
off some of the thin trailing edge off of one blade.=EF=BD I was at a fa
st idle=EF=BDwhen it happened and as things started shaking I shut down
right away.=EF=BD At any rate it kind of ruined that day.=EF=BD Stay
out of the slush!=EF=BD Take care C=EF=BD Jim Chuk=EF=BD=EF=BD
Avid MK IV=EF=BD Mn> [quote] > > > When landing on a lake=2C you should
come in and "drag" it. be like a wheel landing. After "dragging" a set of t
rack=2C go around and take a look at them from the air. If the tracks are g
rey it is cause they are filling with water from the over flow. Find anothe
r place to land.> > --------> DO NOT ARCHIVE> Leonard Perry> Soldotna AK> A
vid "=3BC"=3B / Mk IV > 582 IVO IFA> Full Lotus 1260> As done as an
y plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.> > hander out
er of humorless darwin awards> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http
=============> > >
_________________________________________________________________
Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills.
http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed
_122008
Message 4
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| Subject: | dead stick landings |
my 2 cents,
surely dont want to offend anyone but here is my 2 cents worth. i
definitely support the practice of engine out conditions and landings
with the engine at idle. in my mind the practice of picking out the
landing spot and managing altitude is the critical part of a successful
emergency landing. the actual touchdown we all practice at least once
for each take off. it seems that the major selling point of the engine
off advocates is that the airplane handles differently. it sinks a
little less i have read. that being the case it still isn't logical in
my mind to practice engine out conditions with engine at idle solo and
with 1/4 tanks rather than at gross wt. because the former performs
better.
the long and short of this is that the engine may not restart and you
may have put yourself in an emergency.
a quick story that has nothing to do with anything.... a friend
who is a cfi with 6000 hrs instructing used to practice minimum
controllable airspeed with the critical engine out in twins with his
students. the exercise was over when the airspeed dropped to a point
where the airplane started to yaw and controls lost effectiveness. one
day a little turbulence hit the plane at the end of the exercise. the
airplane was instantly inverted and in a steep dive. he is still my
friend so obviously recovered . he doesnt take that exercise quite as
far since that happened. he doesnt think the benefit is worth the risk
i have never had an engine quit in flight but i sure have had then not
start when i wanted them to.
bob noffs
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic |
That looks pretty slick...I'll look into it further. Thanks for the
website.
The product for sharpening tungsten electrodes is called
"Chemsharp...tungsten electrode sharpener", made in USA, by Dynaflux,
Inc., out of Cartersville, Georgia, 30120, USA. Another name on the
label is ULTRAbrand. A 5 oz jar was about $14. You let about 1" of
tungsten stick out and touch it to the ground until it glows cherry
red about 3/8" up from the tip, then quickly immerse approx. 1/4"
deep into the product repeatedly until the desired point is formed.
It really points the tungsten, much more than the 2 1/2 times the
electrode diameter that my instructions for the welder call for. I
haven't tried it yet when welding aluminum, as my instructions call
for a blunt tungsten for aluminum.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
do not archive
On Dec 20, 2008, at 12:11 AM, akflyer wrote:
>
> http://products.esab.com/Templates/T041.asp?id=93098
>
> It is called a tig pen, to help feed the wire if your having
> trouble with it. If you are good at gas welding then feeding the
> wire should not be an issue for you. I have never seen the
> "crystals" for sharpening tungsten. gonna have to check into
> those! I am guessing it just removes the steel that you have
> melted onto the tungsten and does not actually sharpen it if you
> stick the tip and break it off.. worth checking into.
>
> Naw, you guys have been having colder winters than we have for the
> last few years. Here at work we hit 65 below ambient a few times
> last year, but I think it never got more than 25 below at the house
> for more than a few days. It got to -5 the other night at home.
> it is 30 above now and freezing rain....
>
> --------
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
> Leonard Perry
> Soldotna AK
> Avid "C" / Mk IV
> 582 IVO IFA
> Full Lotus 1260
> As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis
> takes over.
>
> hander outer of humorless darwin awards
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220252#220252
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Dead stick practice |
To be meaningful as to the engine, one would need to rule out fuel issues
which are not related to engine type. There may be other non engine related
reason, also.
Jim Crowder
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt
> Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 11:52 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Dead stick practice
>
>
> Mike brings up an interesting issue - engine failures in experimantal
> airplanes. There are lots of airplanes in this catagory and lots of
> engine
> types. Since this a Kitfox based forum - avid also and similar types,
> I
> would like to pose the question:
>
> How many engine outs resulting in forced landings have each of us had
> and
> how many are we aware of with friends or local folks. To keep it
> relevant,
> these have to be airplanes that have an Experimental Airworthiness
> Certificate - not ultralights or powered parachutes, etc.
>
> To begin, I can think of one, mine but technically the engine never
> quit. I
> think I can recall one other from the list, but to avoid duplications
> of the
> data, I will wait for that person to chime in if he wants to.
>
> As in the aircraft Models, landing gear and engine survey of times
> past, I
> would be willing to spreadsheet the data and make it available to the
> list.
>
> My experience both personal and hearsay, can not justify Mikes
> statement
> that "the engine failure statistics for experimantal airplanes are very
> high".
>
> Lowell
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "JetPilot" <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
> To: <kitfox-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 8:41 PM
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Dead stick practice
>
>
> <orcabonita@hotmail.com>
> >
> >
> > Dick Maddux wrote:
> >>
> >> The military and flight schools have long given up actual dead stick
> >> landings as too many aircraft were destroyed.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Dick,
> >
> > The word dishonest was not the correct word to use, I was not trying
> to
> > question your ethics. The point I was trying to make was that yours
> was
> > not a fair comparison, and that is the terminology I should have
> used. I
> > apologize for the misunderstanding it caused. This seems to have
> > eclipsed the very important issue of practicing actual engine out
> > landings. The engine failure statistics for experimental aircraft
> are
> > very high, and it is even more important for us to be prepared for
> this
> > emergency than even Cessna and other GA pilots.
> >
> > The military flight schools have long given up on actual dead stick
> > landings because the modern military except for a few rare
> exceptions, fly
> > turbine engined airplanes. Turbine engine failures are extremely
> rare,
> > and shutting down the engines in flight in a turbine powered airplane
> in
> > flight is so dangerous that it is not an acceptable or practical
> training
> > method.
> >
> > Practicing deadstick landings in Kitfox aircraft does not in any
> compare
> > to practicing deadstick landings in high performance military
> aircraft.
> > Kitfox airplanes fly very well with no engine, and have no problem
> flying
> > all the way to touchdown without power. There is little difference
> > between landing a Kitfox deadstick, and landing a sailplane. The
> kitfox
> > and the sailplane have about the same landing speeds, and both
> airplanes
> > fly and land just fine with no power. At least in the Kitfox, you
> do
> > have the option of restarting the engine if you want to. Sailplane
> pilots
> > do this every day with NO options like this.
> >
> > It is very easy to say, " I saw a guy crash practicing deadstick
> landings,
> > and have come to the conclusion that it is a bad idea." The more
> > intelligent and thoughtful thing to do would be to look further into
> the
> > issue, and consider how many airplanes each year are needlessly are
> > crashed, and how many people are hurt in experimental airplanes
> because
> > pilots were NOT trained adequately, and not prepared for the day his
> > engine quit. I have read of many crashes in our class of airplanes
> > because the pilot was not prepared for an engine failure. Training
> > accidents happen, that does not mean we should stop training.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > --------
> > "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as
> you
> > could have !!!
> >
> > Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220246#220246
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
Message 7
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You're right, Jim...mine did read higher when I screwed them right
down onto the head...by about 75. This is because when the
thermocouple is sticking up into the air...(remember that the point
where the reading is taken is right where the iron wire and the
constantan wire come together...usually where the crimp on the spark
plug terminal holds the wires together)...the reading is of the crimp
of the terminal, influenced by the air passing by. If the terminal
crimp is 3/8" from the area that sits under the spark plug, there is
a loss of heat right there. Bend the terminal up into the air to
allow it to clear the fins, and you've moved the "reading spot"
further away from the head and into the airstream, which further
cools the reading. When Gary positioned his terminal above the spark
plug washer...if I'm reading his post correctly...he was moving the
terminal/probe away from the head, and the washer then became an
insulator of sorts...at least as much as a copper washer can be
called an insulator. Granted, the terminal now contacts the spark
plug, but think of where most of the metal in a spark plug
resides...away from the head and in the airstream. This theory is all
based on how I interpret Gary's explanation of where he moved the
probes/terminals. If this isn't where he positioned his terminals/
probes, I'll go sit in the corner with a pointy hat on my head.
When this topic was first visited, and I followed the Australian
gent's lead and attached my probes right on the heads, I also
followed someone else's suggestion and took a CHT spark plug terminal/
probe and installed it under my #1 cylinder to compare readings of
the new placement and the old "between the plug and the plug washer"
factory-suggested location, and indeed there was about a 75
difference between the two, the "flat on the head, small electrical
terminal" location being the hotter of the two. You might temporarily
"borrow" a CHT probe from one of the other cylinders and then you'll
be comparing readings taken from just the one cylinder instead of
"identical" cylinders. Once you're satisfied, just swap it back.
Can you fix him up with a hand-held radio for the time being?
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Dec 20, 2008, at 12:00 AM, Jim Crowder wrote:
> Gary and Lynn,
>
> As I remember Lynns temp actually read higher with his new
> placement. Am I right about that? I tapped the small holes
> between my plugs and plan to fasten my sensors there via machine
> screws as Lynn did. I plan to leave one sensor as a standard plug
> ring and mount if conventionally. I will look for differences and
> even place it on an identical cylinder and then compare that way.
>
>
> My metal hangar is unheated and it has been soooo cooollldddd
> here. A week ago it got to nearly 20 below zero. My fingers get
> so cold that when I drop a washer or nut, I have great trouble
> picking it up off of the concrete floor. Most days I still get
> four hours or so of work in, but Im not too productive. My son
> has now flown his RV8 four times. He has it in my hangar. He is
> having radio problems. It is the only real problem he is having.
> It is very noisy and cuts out on transmissions at times. He was
> going up for a second time today and it quit transmitting
> completely. He cut his gain settings way back from what the
> factory had them at and that helped with the noise. We now suspect
> he may have two problems with it. Before it always worked on the
> ground. Now it doesnt transmit at all. It receives beautifully.
> The problem is he doesnt want to work on the radio, he wants to fly.
>
>
> Jim Crowder
>
>
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-
> list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gary.algate@sandvik.com
> Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 5:13 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: CHT's
>
>
> Lynn FYI
>
> yesterday I thought, for interest sake, that I'd fit my CHT probes
> above the spark plug washer to see if I got similar results as you.
> (Previously I just had mine sandwiched below the plug washer and
> the head.
>
> My Temps dropped by about 30 deg F!
>
> Previously my cruise CHT's were around 280-290 and now they're
> around 260.
>
> Regards and Merry Christmas
>
> Gary
>
>
> Gary Algate
> SMC, Exploration
> Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
>
>
> This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the
> addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of
> this message by persons or entities other than the intended
> recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error,
> kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the
> message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for
> any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may
> arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
> This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we
> have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe
> and happy Christmas".
>
>
> Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
> Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> 20/12/2008 09:12 AM
> Please respond to
> kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
> To
>
> kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
> cc
>
> Subject
>
> Kitfox-List: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic
>
>
>
> We (in lower, Lower Michigan) got about 5-11" of new snow today,
> (added to the 3-4" last week) but the damn stuff didn't quit until
> flying hours...for me....were over for the day. Plus, the driveway
> into the hangar was too deep to negotiate, and the plow guy was not
> available. Tomorrow will/should be better for getting my ski-equipped
> Kitfox out and enjoy the snow-flying. If this stuff would just come
> 2-3" at a time, I could handle the driveway and parking (the car)
> problems, but when it comes in "wholesale" amounts, it's just too
> much...damn!
> Oh well, I've got a fresh bottle of Baileys Irish Cream to help me
> through the night, plenty of wood brought inside to feed the fire,
> and plenty of projects (vacuum bagging and TIG-welding practicing to
> be done for the next pair of skis) to keep me busy. And you guys have
> got your Kitfox-building projects, so all is well. :)
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
> system;
> also building a new pair of snow skis
>
>
> ===========
> --
> Gifts!)
> on
> about
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> ===========
> Forum -
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
> ===========
> WEB FORUMS -
> ===========
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/
> Navigator?Kitfox-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com
> ============================================================ _-
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Dead stick practice |
My ears just started to burn...was somebody talking about me? : ) If
not, here goes anyway....
I had an engine break last August which resulted in a forced landing
with not a scratch...I'll take that back. The wheat stubble scratched
the bottoms of my wheelpants...to the plane. This was a Jabiru 2200
engine, Kitfox IV taildragger.
I have a friend who was flying his Cygnet (taildragger w/Exp. Air.
Cert.) with VW power, and he was forced to land...also in a harvested
wheatfield...when his engine puked. No damage to his plane.
Our theme song has now become a modification of the old song
"Greenfields" by the Brothers Four. "Once there were *wheatfields*
kissed by the sun..."
If anybody knows these lyrics, and continues further into the song,
when you get to the part where they say " We were the lovers who
strolled through green fields."...forget about it...ain't gonna
happen...not in my lifetime! : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Dec 20, 2008, at 1:52 AM, Lowell Fitt wrote:
> <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
>
> Mike brings up an interesting issue - engine failures in
> experimantal airplanes. There are lots of airplanes in this
> catagory and lots of engine types. Since this a Kitfox based forum
> - avid also and similar types, I would like to pose the question:
>
> How many engine outs resulting in forced landings have each of us
> had and how many are we aware of with friends or local folks. To
> keep it relevant, these have to be airplanes that have an
> Experimental Airworthiness Certificate - not ultralights or powered
> parachutes, etc.
>
> To begin, I can think of one, mine but technically the engine never
> quit. I think I can recall one other from the list, but to avoid
> duplications of the data, I will wait for that person to chime in
> if he wants to.
>
> As in the aircraft Models, landing gear and engine survey of times
> past, I would be willing to spreadsheet the data and make it
> available to the list.
>
> My experience both personal and hearsay, can not justify Mikes
> statement that "the engine failure statistics for experimantal
> airplanes are very high".
>
> Lowell
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Dead stick practice |
Leonard=2C You better not! I'm going to use that quote. You can sustitute f
or "pilot" with just about any group you want. And=2C I hope to get to Seld
otna to buy you a beer to pay you for that quote.
Do not archive
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford=2C IL> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Dead stick practice> From: akflye
r_2000@yahoo.com> Date: Fri=2C 19 Dec 2008 18:03:09 -0800> To: kitfox-list@
@yahoo.com>> > > lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net wrote:> > Mike=2C> > > > I'm still
trying to figure you out. For a young buck with a few hours in > > your lo
g book you sure have strong opinions you like to put out as FACTS. I > > ca
n respect opinions=2C but personal attacks go beyond my personal ability to
> > keep quiet. Frankly=2C I think the "poor judgement" is all yours in yo
ur > > posting style. I'd sure like to see you in a face to face discussion
s with > > some of the folks you like to diss. I can see it now=2C you sitt
ing there > > with your 300 hours in a grown up ultralight facing a real pi
lot - 18=2C000 > > hours in everything from Super Cubs and Pitts s2bs to B-
777s=2C instructed in > > the military and for the airlines (Would you beli
eve in real jets)=2C > > currently a CFI and you telling him about airplane
s> > > > Sheesh> > > > Lowell> > > > do not archive> > ---> > > Lowell=2C>
> Just read below and I think it may help you / all of us.> > One day=2C lo
ng=2C long ago there was this Pilot who=2C surprisingly ........... was not
full of crap.... > > But it was a long time ago.... And it was just one da
y. > The End> > > sorry=2C couldn't resist=2C I will try harder to restrain
myself in the future.> > --------> DO NOT ARCHIVE> Leonard Perry> Soldotna
AK> Avid "=3BC"=3B / Mk IV > 582 IVO IFA> Full Lotus 1260> As done
as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.> > hand
er outer of humorless darwin awards> > > > > Read this topic online here:>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220229#220229> > > > > > >
===============> > >
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Dead stick practice |
At 10:52 PM 12/19/2008, Lowell Fitt wrote:
>How many engine outs resulting in forced landings have each of us
>had and how many are we aware of with friends or local folks. To
>keep it relevant, these have to be airplanes that have an
>Experimental Airworthiness Certificate - not ultralights or powered
>parachutes, etc.
Lowell,
Would you re-post this with a new subject?
Thanks,
Guy Buchanan - Kitfox List Moderator
San Diego, CA
K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade
100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Dead stick practice |
At 03:28 PM 12/18/2008, you wrote:
>I'm still trying to figure you out. For a young buck with a few
>hours in your log book
I'm not attacking Lowell, but citing this message as a prime example
of a post that should have been sent off-line.
Guy Buchanan - Kitfox List Moderator
San Diego, CA
K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade
100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic |
At 06:16 PM 12/19/2008, you wrote:
>What tig unit do you have? are you using 1/16th or 1/8
>tungsten? do you have a foot pedal, or better yet a thumb wheel to
>control the heat? If you are using 1/8" it is a bit trickier to run
>without burning through. Keep the tungsten VERY sharp. if you dip
>your wick, sand it sharp again. The easiest way it to put it in the
>cordless drill, spin it up and hold it against a belt or disk sander
>very lightly.
HOLD ON THERE LEONARD! (LOL) How about a subject change. Things are
getting kind of loosy-goosy in the subject category and it makes for
lousy archives. I appreciate a minor digression, but some of these
threads are taking on a life of their own.
Guidelines: How about this: If you think someone might reply to your
digression, it should have another subject. If you think A LOT of
people might reply, it should definitely have another subject.
Thanks all!
Guy Buchanan - Kitfox List Moderator
San Diego, CA
K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade
100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar
Message 13
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>You might temporarily
> "borrow" a CHT probe from one of the other cylinders and then you'll
> be comparing readings taken from just the one cylinder instead of
> "identical" cylinders. Once you're satisfied, just swap it back.
>
> Can you fix him up with a hand-held radio for the time being?
>
> Lynn Matteson
That's exactly what I plan to do with the one temporarily unmodified sensor
I will retain. I will of course report my numbers and I expect to confirm
your results. At least on the bench, my Grand Rapids monitor's output is
read my HP tablet computer and charted by Excel and working nicely when I
heat the sensors with a heat gun. I bit the bullet and purchased Microsoft
Pro 2007 Office so as to now own Access data base software. I also export
the data now to the data base program along with Excell's chart display.
Again along with Vista's moving map GPS driven software, my computer is able
to run all at the same time. My Russian software allows me to control the
sampling rate from the engine monitor. To keep all working, I now only use
one out of twenty of the output data packages. That amounts to seven
complete data sets in ten seconds. Before when I was using Excell 2003
instead of the new 2007, I was able to use fourteen sets of data in the ten
seconds. In my case that means the new Excell 2007 adds more overhead! The
database file while appearing huge when displayed, is small compared to jpeg
picture files.
What I am getting at is I believe I will have scientific data to provide
anyone interested. Each data set is time stamped with date and time down to
the second. I plan to keep these files on an external hard drive or perhaps
a compact disk for historic comparison as the engine ages. If I hadn't been
fooling around with the computer programs so long, I might be now flying.
I do have a handheld radio my son could use but it is also the one I have
been using to do our radio check calls. I have been completely re-wiring
my cockpit with the new engine install basing it on the design suggestions
of Bob Nuckolls. I'm doing a wiring drawing as per my as-built install by
downloading AutoCAD format files of Bob's basic drawings he thoughtfully
provides on his WEB page. I no longer have AutoCAD software, but I do have
Turbo cad which can read the files and convert them. In any case with
another few hours of work, I should be able to power-up a partial panel and
have my aircraft radio also working. That will then free-up the hand-held
for Mark's use. His RV8 is a screamer under the one person aboard rules of
the fly-off period.
Jim Crowder
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Dead stick practice |
Do they have sims to practice dead stick landings on?? For fighter jets?
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JetPilot
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 1:12 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Dead stick practice
Dick Maddux wrote:
>
> The military and flight schools have long given up actual dead stick
landings as too many aircraft were destroyed.
>
Dick,
The word dishonest was not the correct word to use, I was not trying to
question your ethics. The point I was trying to make was that yours was not
a fair comparison, and that is the terminology I should have used. I
apologize for the misunderstanding it caused. This seems to have eclipsed
the very important issue of practicing actual engine out landings. The
engine failure statistics for experimental aircraft are very high, and it is
even more important for us to be prepared for this emergency than even
Cessna and other GA pilots.
The military flight schools have long given up on actual dead stick landings
because the modern military except for a few rare exceptions, fly turbine
engined airplanes. Turbine engine failures are extremely rare, and shutting
down the engines in flight in a turbine powered airplane in flight is so
dangerous that it is not an acceptable or practical training method.
Practicing deadstick landings in Kitfox aircraft does not in any compare to
practicing deadstick landings in high performance military aircraft. Kitfox
airplanes fly very well with no engine, and have no problem flying all the
way to touchdown without power. There is little difference between landing
a Kitfox deadstick, and landing a sailplane. The kitfox and the sailplane
have about the same landing speeds, and both airplanes fly and land just
fine with no power. At least in the Kitfox, you do have the option of
restarting the engine if you want to. Sailplane pilots do this every day
with NO options like this.
It is very easy to say, " I saw a guy crash practicing deadstick landings,
and have come to the conclusion that it is a bad idea." The more
intelligent and thoughtful thing to do would be to look further into the
issue, and consider how many airplanes each year are needlessly are crashed,
and how many people are hurt in experimental airplanes because pilots were
NOT trained adequately, and not prepared for the day his engine quit. I
have read of many crashes in our class of airplanes because the pilot was
not prepared for an engine failure. Training accidents happen, that does
not mean we should stop training.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you
could have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220246#220246
Message 15
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| Subject: | Emergency landing survey |
Per Guy's request this is the formal survey request.
Let's just forget the whole thing. Nothing will come of it. We can't
possibly assemble enough pertinent data to have any real meaning and
insufficient data has no greater validity than a bunch of opinions. Also, I
have just too many irons in the fire right now to take time for a
meaningless excercise.
Sorry
Lowell
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Emergency landing survey |
That's probably true, Lowell. And besides, of the...how many on board
here?...100 (?) who read this List, how many more are out there
flying, and no longer pay any attention to this List, (they got their
plane done, and "bye, bye", they ate and ran) and if they do, do they
respond?I wonder how many we've lost to the "other" Kitfox group,
which I read from time to time, and just yesterday made my first
comment. (I feel like a traitor)
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
do not archive
On Dec 20, 2008, at 1:03 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote:
> <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>
>
> Per Guy's request this is the formal survey request.
>
> Let's just forget the whole thing. Nothing will come of it. We
> can't possibly assemble enough pertinent data to have any real
> meaning and insufficient data has no greater validity than a bunch
> of opinions. Also, I have just too many irons in the fire right
> now to take time for a meaningless excercise.
>
> Sorry
>
> Lowell
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Engine failures and other nasty stuff. |
Lowell this is a good topic for a fresh topic so here goes...
I know of several engine outs, both in amateur built and certified aircraft.
That comes with being a Canadian AME (intern)
Most of them are problems of fuel... not having enough gas. A few were not
recognizing carb ice and a couple were mechanical in nature. One prop
departure I heard of landed safely and one cylinder blown.... Actually the
one with the blown jug could have made it back to the airport but it meant
flying over a town and there was a nice bare vacant highway just under him.
BTW that was on a C-$1.52.
I've seen several occasions where a plane landed that could not take off
again...
My 'Fox had a perforated gas pump diaphragm and flooded my base but the
engine continued to run... That could have easily led to a fire as when I
stopped the engine gas poured out the carbs! (582) On climb out I started
having trouble when I reduced the throttle so I immediately returned to the
pond I had left ten minutes earlier. The problem worsened as I approached
the hills surrounding the pond and I ended up landing with full power on, to
the flare. I was able to keep the engine running almost to the beach from
there I got out and pulled the plane back to where I had the trailer.
On another occasion a guy brought his C177 to our AMO (Authorized
Maintenance Organization) for its annual... I found a birds nest built
around the mixer for the stabilator, and the alternator belt stretched to
the breaking point. The guy said the plane wasn't charging. The boss found
the plane was out of time on the last inspection but the fellow decided to
fly it home (2 hr flight) recharge the batteries and fly back the following
week. The part I didn't like was he had his three young children with him.
Sometimes you have to strain to keep your mouth shut!
When I took my flying lessons I would find a snag with the plane just about
every flight if I was first to the plane in the morning. Most were easily
cleared but at least twice I decided it was not worth flying until the snag
was fixed. The other students liked when I did the first pre-flight for the
day because I picked up things they missed... The owner of the flight
school once threatened his maintenance staff to let me pull the floor
inspection plates. Truth was the maintenance crowd there did an excellent
job and would have done better if any snags had been reported directly to
them instead of the instructors.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 3:22 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Dead stick practice
Mike brings up an interesting issue - engine failures in experimantal
airplanes. There are lots of airplanes in this catagory and lots of engine
types. Since this a Kitfox based forum - avid also and similar types, I
would like to pose the question:
How many engine outs resulting in forced landings have each of us had and
how many are we aware of with friends or local folks. To keep it relevant,
these have to be airplanes that have an Experimental Airworthiness
Certificate - not ultralights or powered parachutes, etc.
To begin, I can think of one, mine but technically the engine never quit. I
think I can recall one other from the list, but to avoid duplications of the
data, I will wait for that person to chime in if he wants to.
As in the aircraft Models, landing gear and engine survey of times past, I
would be willing to spreadsheet the data and make it available to the list.
My experience both personal and hearsay, can not justify Mikes statement
that "the engine failure statistics for experimantal airplanes are very
high".
Lowell
Message 18
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Here's a great video of a KF on skis.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0COIbiwm9g>
I don't know who this is.
Here's another short but interesting one wheeel landing. I think that is a Rotec
Radial Engine on a KF IV.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0COIbiwm9g>
There's a bunch of other KF videos posted on YouTube.
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic |
Good advice, Jim. I got a 20-minute flight in today after the
driveway into the hangar was cleaned of about 10" of snow. The
takeoff was sluggish, but finally, just as I was about to abort, it
lifted off. Landed at Napoleon Field (3NP), where the snowmobiles (I
hate those damn things) had carved up 9-27 pretty good. I landed
where they hadn't made tracks, and it was smo-o-o-th. Taxiing back,
the going was again sluggish, so I steered into those s'mobile tracks
and speed picked up. Turned and took off, using their tracks for a
less friction takeoff...I hate them a little less now. But come thaw
time, and I have to land in frozen ruts (maybe some of my own) I'll
hate 'em again. : )
I can't wait until I get my new ones built, because the friction will
be much less, and taxiing and takeoffs will benefit.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Dec 20, 2008, at 12:00 AM, Jim_and_Lucy Chuk wrote:
> Hi Lynn, After I landed, I taxied into about 3" of slush that I
> didn't see under about 10" of snow. When the slush hit the prop,
> it chipped off some of the thin trailing edge off of one blade. I
> was at a fast idle when it happened and as things started shaking I
> shut down right away. At any rate it kind of ruined that day.
> Stay out of the slush! Take care, Jim Chuk Avid MK IV Mn
> >
> > Did the blades break right away?...crack?
> >
> > Lynn Matteson
> > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
> > Sensenich 62x46
> > flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
> > system;
> > also building a new pair of snow skis
> > do not archive
> >
> >
> >
> > On Dec 19, 2008, at 8:10 PM, Jim_and_Lucy Chuk wrote:
> >
> > > I've had my plane on skis for almost 2 weeks, Flew about 3 hours
> > > between yesterday and Wednesday. Temps were about +7 F both days
> > > so I wasn't sweating anyway! We had about 12" of snow last weekend
> > > on top of the 6" or so that was there allready. Supposed to get
> > > 4"-8" tomorrow. Only real problem is the lakes are getting water
> > > coming up on top of the ice because the weight of all the snow on
> > > it and that makes slush which is not good to land on. I ruined a
> > > prop last winter when I taxied through slush that splashed up and
> > > hit the prop blades. Well at least up here in Mn we allways have
> > > something to complain about. LOL. Take care, Jim Chuk Avid MK
> > > IV Mn
> > >
> > > > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic
> > > > From: nahsikhs@elltel.net
> > > > Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 15:39:50 -0800
> > > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> > > >
> <nahsikhs@elltel.net>
> > > >
> > > > Lynn,
> > > > At least you have skis so some fun to look foreword to. We have
> > > plenty of snow in Central washing and more on the way. I wonder if
> > > I can take the skis off my snowmobile and put them on my kitfox.
> > > >
> > > > Merry Christmas to all, card attached.
> > > >
> > > > --------
> > > > Tom Jones
> > > > Classic IV
> > > > 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
> > > > Ellensburg, WA
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Read this topic online here:
> > > >
> > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220208#220208
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Attachments:
> > > >
> > > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/snow_ Archive Search &
> > > Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
> > > >==================
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Send e-mail anywhere. No map, no compass. Get your Hotmail
> account
> > > ========== _-
> > > =================================== _-
> > > ==================================
> >
> >
> > ======================
> >
> >
> >
>
> You live life online. So we put t/01/' target='_new'>Learn more
> about Windows Live_-
> ============================================================ _-
> ============================================================ _-
> ===========================================================
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic |
I'll shoulder some of the blame for the welding topic...sorry.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
do not archive
On Dec 20, 2008, at 11:30 AM, Guy Buchanan wrote:
> At 06:16 PM 12/19/2008, you wrote:
>> What tig unit do you have? are you using 1/16th or 1/8 tungsten?
>> do you have a foot pedal, or better yet a thumb wheel to control
>> the heat? If you are using 1/8" it is a bit trickier to run
>> without burning through. Keep the tungsten VERY sharp. if you
>> dip your wick, sand it sharp again. The easiest way it to put it
>> in the cordless drill, spin it up and hold it against a belt or
>> disk sander very lightly.
>
> HOLD ON THERE LEONARD! (LOL) How about a subject change. Things are
> getting kind of loosy-goosy in the subject category and it makes
> for lousy archives. I appreciate a minor digression, but some of
> these threads are taking on a life of their own.
>
> Guidelines: How about this: If you think someone might reply to
> your digression, it should have another subject. If you think A LOT
> of people might reply, it should definitely have another subject.
>
> Thanks all!
>
> Guy Buchanan - Kitfox List Moderator
> San Diego, CA
> K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade
> 100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar
>
> ===========================================================
Message 21
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| Subject: | kitfox III 582 rotax grayhead |
Much has been recently said about dead stick landings, and I want to make s
ure I don't have one, so my question will be diverted away to another subje
ct regarding questionable engine performance.
-
I have always had great performing gray head 582, at all throttle settings.
- But recently I noticed that on a downwind leg coasting at about 4000 rp
m's my front EGT was dropping to about 800 to 850 degrees where the rear on
e was at about
1050. 1000 to 1050 seems normal for my engine on final for each cylinder.
- This is the first time I have seen this kinda disparity between the 2 c
ylinders.
-
Once on the ground, I was static and ran the engine at different rpm's.-
Seems that about 3500 to 4000 it will occasionaly "shutter" as in being too
rich.- When it does this about 3 to 4 seconds afterwards the egt's on th
e front cylinder will drop
noticabaly several hundred degres. The rear stays steady.- Seems somethin
g is cooling the front cylinder down more than the rear.-
-
Full bore open throttle setting are no problem and permormance seems normal
.- Since this is a new symptom, and somewhat unusual, I am reluctant to p
ut her in the air until I can figure out whats going on.
-
Any ideas?
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: kitfox III 582 rotax grayhead |
Check the jets, the needles and the needle jet. Sounds like one may be getting
worn just a tad, or one may be partially plugged. Check the float level in the
carb also, I had a similar issue with mine. With the liquid cooled engine,
the cylinder cooling wont be different.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220353#220353
Message 23
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| Subject: | Emergency landing survey |
Well one thing's for sure=2C engine outs do happen. A couple of years ago
=2C I had a fuel filter start to plug up as I was taking off from my strip.
I didn't know it till I got to about 450' and the aproximatly 1 quart he
ader tank started to run empty. The engine never did die=2C but it wouldn'
t hold over about 4500 RPM (582 Rotax) and I made a precautionairy landin
g in a neighbors field about 1 1/2 miles for home. Made a landing in tall
grass with no damage to the plane. Also=2C last summer a couple of guys
I know had somthing simalar happen in a Kolb with 503 Rotax except they jus
t barly got above the trees and it then wouldn't climb any further. The ar
ea they were over was logged over with lots of trees left standing and fina
lly they were forced to land in a spot that was pretty rough when they cou
ldn't make it over some taller trees. They both ended up with broken ankle
s when the plane flipped over. They were fortunate that was about all they
got out of it. I did learn something from the experience=2C I now have t
he filter after the header tank=2C with also acts as a gascolator/settlemen
t bulb=2C and I addded a second filter parallel to the first one with a val
ve that will let fuel flow though the second filter only when I open that s
econd valve. I do use both filters when I takeoff=2C and then shut the sec
ond filter off after I get to about 800'-1000'. Funny thing=2C in both of
these two situations=2C the engines didn't actually die=2C but they might
as well have. Well take care=2C and fly safe! Jim Chuk=2C Avid MK IV=2C
Jabiru=2C Mn> From: lynnmatt@jps.net> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Emergency
landing survey> Date: Sat=2C 20 Dec 2008 14:23:59 -0500> To: kitfox-list@ma
ps.net>> > That's probably true=2C Lowell. And besides=2C of the...how many
on board > here?...100 (?) who read this List=2C how many more are out the
re > flying=2C and no longer pay any attention to this List=2C (they got th
eir > plane done=2C and "bye=2C bye"=2C they ate and ran) and if they do=2C
do they > respond?I wonder how many we've lost to the "other" Kitfox group
=2C > which I read from time to time=2C and just yesterday made my first >
comment. (I feel like a traitor)> > Lynn Matteson> Kitfox IV Speedster=2C t
aildragger> Jabiru 2200=2C #2062=2C 596+ hrs> Sensenich 62x46> flying again
after rebuild=2C and new Electroair direct-fire ignition > system=3B> also
building a new pair of snow skis> do not archive> > > > On Dec 20=2C 2008
=2C at 1:03 PM=2C Lowell Fitt wrote:> > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by
: "Lowell Fitt" > > <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>> >> > Per Guy's request this is
the formal survey request.> >> > Let's just forget the whole thing. Nothing
will come of it. We > > can't possibly assemble enough pertinent data to h
ave any real > > meaning and insufficient data has no greater validity than
a bunch > > of opinions. Also=2C I have just too many irons in the fire ri
ght > > now to take time for a meaningless excercise.> >> > Sorry> >> > Low
=====================> > >
_________________________________________________________________
Life on your PC is safer=2C easier=2C and more enjoyable with Windows Vista
=AE.
Message 24
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Great video... Dave was the one, I think, who pushed all on the list to
practice dead stick landings... I think I have seen videos of him land dead
stick on skis and floats.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul A. Franz,
P.E.
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 5:46 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox on Skis
<paul@eucleides.com>
Here's a great video of a KF on skis.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0COIbiwm9g>
I don't know who this is.
Here's another short but interesting one wheeel landing. I think that is a
Rotec
Radial Engine on a KF IV.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0COIbiwm9g>
There's a bunch of other KF videos posted on YouTube.
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic |
Tom=2C That's not funny. Deke Morrisse in MI built his out of the plastic s
kins from Artic Cat used on their snow machines. I bought a set of skins an
d will have them on mine next year. They aren't real big so you need packed
snow I would imagine. How about that Deke? Those snow machine skies you de
signed won't work in deep snow=2C or will they?
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford=2C IL> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off to
pic> From: nahsikhs@elltel.net> Date: Fri=2C 19 Dec 2008 15:39:50 -0800> To
s" <nahsikhs@elltel.net>> > Lynn=2C> At least you have skis so some fun to
look foreword to. We have plenty of snow in Central washing and more on the
way. I wonder if I can take the skis off my snowmobile and put them on my
kitfox.> > Merry Christmas to all=2C card attached.> > --------> Tom Jones>
Classic IV> 503 Rotax=2C 72 inch Two blade Warp> Ellensburg=2C WA> > > > >
Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?
p=220208#220208> > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//fi
===> > >
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic |
Deke and Pat-
How wide and long are these "skins"? What is the area of each ski
(length in inches, multiplied by the width in inches)? Like Leonard
Perry pointed out the other day, you need all the area you can get in
soft powder snow (or words to that effect).
Maybe skis could be added to that list of useless things in aviation:
Fuel left back at the hangar.....altitude above you....runway behind
you.....(can't think of the others)...and wider skis left on the
drawing table.
I had a heck of a time getting out of 10" of snow today, and earlier
this year from about 9" of snow. Granted, my skis are wheel-
penetration skis, and I have re-thought the design, but it seems to
make sense to have all the area you can get...I think.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Dec 20, 2008, at 10:34 PM, patrick reilly wrote:
> Tom, That's not funny. Deke Morrisse in MI built his out of the
> plastic skins from Artic Cat used on their snow machines. I bought
> a set of skins and will have them on mine next year. They aren't
> real big so you need packed snow I would imagine. How about that
> Deke? Those snow machine skies you designed won't work in deep
> snow, or will they?
>
> Pat Reilly
> Mod 3 582 Rebuild
> Rockford, IL
>
> > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic
> > From: nahsikhs@elltel.net
> > Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 15:39:50 -0800
> > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> >
> >
> > Lynn,
> > At least you have skis so some fun to look foreword to. We have
> plenty of snow in Central washing and more on the way. I wonder if
> I can take the skis off my snowmobile and put them on my kitfox.
> >
> > Merry Christmas to all, card attached.
> >
> > --------
> > Tom Jones
> > Classic IV
> > 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
> > Ellensburg, WA
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220208#220208
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Attachments:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com//files/snow_trees_card_202.jpg
> >
> >
> >
> >
> &====================
> >
> >
> >
>
> ============================================================ _-
> ============================================================ _-
> ===========================================================
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic |
There is NO WAY the skis from a sled, unless it was from an old twin track alpine
(and that would be marginal), will hold the KF up on anything but very hard
packed snow or ice. They wont even hold up my sled in powder. If you try landing
in 12" of powder you are going straight to he bottom.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220364#220364
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox on Skis |
Gent's I believe that this is list member Dave Fisher
Gary
Gary Algate
Kitfox Classic Jab 2200
Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees.
Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by
persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If
you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by
telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender
does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of
this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
?This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have
made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe and happy
Christmas".
"Paul A. Franz, P.E." <paul@eucleides.com>
Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
21/12/2008 07:53 AM
Please respond to
kitfox-list@matronics.com
To
kitfox-list@matronics.com
cc
Subject
Kitfox-List: Kitfox on Skis
<paul@eucleides.com>
Here's a great video of a KF on skis.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0COIbiwm9g>
I don't know who this is.
Here's another short but interesting one wheeel landing. I think that is a
Rotec
Radial Engine on a KF IV.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0COIbiwm9g>
There's a bunch of other KF videos posted on YouTube.
=5F-=======================
===========
=5F-
=5F-= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month --
=5F-= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
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=5F-= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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=5F-= Thank you for your generous support!
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=5F-
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===========
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===========
Message 29
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Hi Lynn
You are right with your assumption. I was talking with a couple of guys
with Jab engines who told me the probe should be sandwiched between the
base of the plug (Hex section) and the washer.
I had always sandwiched mine between the washer and the head so that it
was reading directly from the head itself.
Anyway, as you found out a few mm can make a huge difference.
I just went thru my install manual to find out the right position as I
assume the temps Jab quote are based on a very specific location. I
haven't found it yet.
Gary
Gary Algate
SMC, Exploration
Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees.
Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by
persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If
you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by
telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender
does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of
this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
?This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have
made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe and happy
Christmas".
Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
21/12/2008 02:36 AM
Please respond to
kitfox-list@matronics.com
To
kitfox-list@matronics.com
cc
Subject
Re: Kitfox-List: Re: CHT's
You're right, Jim...mine did read higher when I screwed them right
down onto the head...by about 75=B0. This is because when the
thermocouple is sticking up into the air...(remember that the point
where the reading is taken is right where the iron wire and the
constantan wire come together...usually where the crimp on the spark
plug terminal holds the wires together)...the reading is of the crimp
of the terminal, influenced by the air passing by. If the terminal
crimp is 3/8" from the area that sits under the spark plug, there is
a loss of heat right there. Bend the terminal up into the air to
allow it to clear the fins, and you've moved the "reading spot"
further away from the head and into the airstream, which further
cools the reading. When Gary positioned his terminal above the spark
plug washer...if I'm reading his post correctly...he was moving the
terminal/probe away from the head, and the washer then became an
insulator of sorts...at least as much as a copper washer can be
called an insulator. Granted, the terminal now contacts the spark
plug, but think of where most of the metal in a spark plug
resides...away from the head and in the airstream. This theory is all
based on how I interpret Gary's explanation of where he moved the
probes/terminals. If this isn't where he positioned his terminals/
probes, I'll go sit in the corner with a pointy hat on my head.
When this topic was first visited, and I followed the Australian
gent's lead and attached my probes right on the heads, I also
followed someone else's suggestion and took a CHT spark plug terminal/
probe and installed it under my #1 cylinder to compare readings of
the new placement and the old "between the plug and the plug washer"
factory-suggested location, and indeed there was about a 75=B0
difference between the two, the "flat on the head, small electrical
terminal" location being the hotter of the two. You might temporarily
"borrow" a CHT probe from one of the other cylinders and then you'll
be comparing readings taken from just the one cylinder instead of
"identical" cylinders. Once you're satisfied, just swap it back.
Can you fix him up with a hand-held radio for the time being?
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Dec 20, 2008, at 12:00 AM, Jim Crowder wrote:
> Gary and Lynn,
>
> As I remember Lynn?s temp actually read higher with his new
> placement. Am I right about that? I tapped the small holes
> between my plugs and plan to fasten my sensors there via machine
> screws as Lynn did. I plan to leave one sensor as a standard plug
> ring and mount if conventionally. I will look for differences and
> even place it on an identical cylinder and then compare that way.
>
>
> My metal hangar is unheated and it has been soooo cooollldddd
> here. A week ago it got to nearly 20 below zero. My fingers get
> so cold that when I drop a washer or nut, I have great trouble
> picking it up off of the concrete floor. Most days I still get
> four hours or so of work in, but I?m not too productive. My son
> has now flown his RV8 four times. He has it in my hangar. He is
> having radio problems. It is the only real problem he is having.
> It is very noisy and cuts out on transmissions at times. He was
> going up for a second time today and it quit transmitting
> completely. He cut his gain settings way back from what the
> factory had them at and that helped with the noise. We now suspect
> he may have two problems with it. Before it always worked on the
> ground. Now it doesn?t transmit at all. It receives beautifully.
> The problem is he doesn?t want to work on the radio, he wants to fly.
>
>
> Jim Crowder
>
>
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-
> list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gary.algate@sandvik.com
> Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 5:13 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: CHT's
>
>
> Lynn FYI
>
> yesterday I thought, for interest sake, that I'd fit my CHT probes
> above the spark plug washer to see if I got similar results as you.
> (Previously I just had mine sandwiched below the plug washer and
> the head.
>
> My Temps dropped by about 30 deg F!
>
> Previously my cruise CHT's were around 280-290 and now they're
> around 260.
>
> Regards and Merry Christmas
>
> Gary
>
>
> Gary Algate
> SMC, Exploration
> Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
>
>
> This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the
> addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of
> this message by persons or entities other than the intended
> recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error,
> kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the
> message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for
> any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may
> arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
> ?This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we
> have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe
> and happy Christmas".
>
>
> Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt@jps.net>
>
> Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> 20/12/2008 09:12 AM
> Please respond to
> kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
> To
>
> kitfox-list@matronics.com
>
> cc
>
> Subject
>
> Kitfox-List: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic
>
>
>
> We (in lower, Lower Michigan) got about 5-11" of new snow today,
> (added to the 3-4" last week) but the damn stuff didn't quit until
> flying hours...for me....were over for the day. Plus, the driveway
> into the hangar was too deep to negotiate, and the plow guy was not
> available. Tomorrow will/should be better for getting my ski-equipped
> Kitfox out and enjoy the snow-flying. If this stuff would just come
> 2-3" at a time, I could handle the driveway and parking (the car)
> problems, but when it comes in "wholesale" amounts, it's just too
> much...damn!
> Oh well, I've got a fresh bottle of Baileys Irish Cream to help me
> through the night, plenty of wood brought inside to feed the fire,
> and plenty of projects (vacuum bagging and TIG-welding practicing to
> be done for the next pair of skis) to keep me busy. And you guys have
> got your Kitfox-building projects, so all is well. :)
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
> system;
> also building a new pair of snow skis
>
>
> ===========
> --
> Gifts!)
> on
> about
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> ===========
> Forum -
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
> ===========
> WEB FORUMS -
> ===========
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/
> Navigator?Kitfox-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com
> ========================
=========== =5F-
> ========================
=========== =5F-
> ========================
=5F-=======================
===========
=5F-
=5F-= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month --
=5F-= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
=5F-
=5F-= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on
=5F-= the Contribution link below to find out more about
=5F-= this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts!
=5F-
=5F-= List Contribution Web Site:
=5F-
=5F-= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
=5F-
=5F-= Thank you for your generous support!
=5F-
=5F-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
=5F-
=5F-=======================
===========
=5F-= - The Kitfox-List Email Forum -
=5F-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse
=5F-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription,
=5F-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
=5F-= Photoshare, and much much more:
=5F-
=5F-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
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===========
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=5F-= Same great content also available via the Web Forums!
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Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Kitfox on Skis |
At 01:15 PM 12/20/2008, you wrote:
>Here's a great video of a KF on skis.
>
><http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0COIbiwm9g>
>
>I don't know who this is.
That's Dave Fisher at the Trailer Park. What's interesting is his
tails ski. I haven't heard anyone else using one.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade
100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar
Message 31
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While watching the Dave Fisher (thanks, Gary Algate) video of the KF on skis
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0COIbiwm9g>
It would appear to me that there is a great deal of sliding friction and a lack
of
flotation. The ski designs all appear to be fairly rigid. From my snow skiing
experience, I would think that the skis might even be getting snow caking. It would
seem to me that they need to have more area from being longer, not wider and if
they
were slightly flexible then with aileron control you could lean the plane into
a turn
slightly and you would be able to turn.
Wouldn't adding length and flexibility improve flotation, reduce friction and greatly
improve maneuverability?
I know Lynn is building new skis and using vacuum bagging to build up the bases.
If it
were designed as skis for powder, I'd think you'd want a length to width ratio
of
about 25 with slightly wider front tips and a loading of about 1.0 lbs/in. So that
would mean for a 1200 lb aircraft with two skis, each ski would be designed for
600 lb
load and would have 600 in. Given a length to width ratio of 25 that would be mean
each ski would be 4.9" wide and 120" long and be flexible enough so that the tips
could flex up going over ruts and ridges with a loading center about 50" from the
rear
tip of the ski.
Have skis of such dimensions been tried?
'Twas the nocturnal segment of the diurnal period
preceding the annual Yuletide celebration, And
throughout our place of residence,
Kinetic activity was not in evidence among the
possessors of this potential, including that
species of domestic rodent known as Mus musculus.
Hosiery was meticulously suspended from the forward
edge of the woodburning caloric apparatus,
Pursuant to our anticipatory pleasure regarding an
imminent visitation from an eccentric
philanthropist among whose folkloric appellations
is the honorific title of St. Nicklaus ...
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Slipping with Flaps |
An interesting technique I learned in training for my private years ago in a 69
Cessna 150 with 40 degrees of flaps. I was being shown how to spiral down through
a hole in the clouds. My instructor had me slow to the bottom of the white
arc, then pull the 40 degrees of flaps and hold the airspeed at the bottom
of the white arc. As the nose kept coming down to hold that speed he had me
open my door while he opened his door holding them open with one foot, and to
maintain the bottom of the white arc with pitch. We were stable, decending at
the bottom of the white, and all I could see out the windscreen was earth. Seemed
like a good alternative to lots of spiraling where you could get too slow
and spin if you weren't careful. Anyone else ever do this?
--------
J. Henry Hall
Kitfox II, 582, Tundra Tires,
rusty pilot.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220375#220375
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