---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 12/21/08: 39 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:41 AM - Re: Re: CHT's (Lynn Matteson) 2. 03:45 AM - Re: skis (Lynn Matteson) 3. 04:59 AM - Snowmobile Skis (fox5flyer) 4. 05:03 AM - Snowmobile Skis (fox5flyer) 5. 05:13 AM - Snowmobile Skis (fox5flyer) 6. 05:21 AM - Snowboards for skis (fox5flyer) 7. 06:04 AM - Re: Snowmobile Skis (Lynn Matteson) 8. 06:11 AM - Re: Snowmobile Skis (Lynn Matteson) 9. 07:22 AM - Re: Re: Slipping with Flaps (Guy Buchanan) 10. 07:58 AM - Re: Snowmobile Skis (akflyer) 11. 09:02 AM - Re: Snowboards for skis (patrick reilly) 12. 09:28 AM - Re: Snowboards for skis (Randy Daughenbaugh) 13. 09:42 AM - Re: Snowmobile Skis (patrick reilly) 14. 09:42 AM - Re: skis (Lynn Matteson) 15. 09:48 AM - Re: Snowboards for skis (Lynn Matteson) 16. 10:05 AM - Re: Snowboards for skis (patrick reilly) 17. 10:23 AM - Re: skis (akflyer) 18. 10:23 AM - Re: skis (patrick reilly) 19. 10:28 AM - Re: Snowboards for skis (akflyer) 20. 10:30 AM - Snowmobile Skis (fox5flyer) 21. 10:35 AM - Re: Snowboards for skis (fox5flyer) 22. 11:03 AM - Snowmobile Ski Skin photos (fox5flyer) 23. 11:27 AM - Re: Slipping with FlapsRe: Slipping with Flaps (Joel Mapes) 24. 11:27 AM - Re: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic (Noel Loveys) 25. 12:44 PM - Re: Slipping with Flaps - C172 (Paul Franz - Merlin GT) 26. 12:58 PM - Re: Snowboards for skis (Noel Loveys) 27. 01:22 PM - Re: Snowboards for skis (Lynn Matteson) 28. 01:25 PM - Re: Re: CHT's (gary.algate@sandvik.com) 29. 01:45 PM - Re: skis (Lynn Matteson) 30. 01:56 PM - Re: Re: skis (Lynn Matteson) 31. 02:03 PM - Re: Snowmobile Ski Skin photos (Lynn Matteson) 32. 03:02 PM - Re: skis (Lynn Matteson) 33. 03:14 PM - Re: Snowmobile Ski Skin photos (Ron Liebmann) 34. 03:36 PM - water overflow bottle height (jridgway) 35. 03:43 PM - Re: Re: Slipping with Flaps (Clint Bazzill) 36. 04:58 PM - Re: Snowboards for skis (Jim Crowder) 37. 07:42 PM - Re: water overflow bottle height (Weiss Richard) 38. 08:02 PM - Re: water overflow bottle height (Roger Lee) 39. 08:47 PM - Re: water overflow bottle height (James Shumaker) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:41:21 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: CHT's In order to find where the Jabiru owner is placing his probe, you only have to hide and watch and listen as he/she installs them....if installing takes a few seconds and the shop is relatively quiet, they are doing as you did, Gary, installing the probe onto the new plug and screwing down so that the probe is against the head. If, however, the job takes 10 minutes per plug and the air is foul with cussing, the recalling of the plug's questionable ancestry, and perhaps a mention of some prior incestuous fornication on the part of the plug, then he/she is installing them the way the factory suggests...removing the (%$#@*&?+*# ) washer, placing the probe onto the plug, then replacing the (%$#@*&?+*# ) washer, and installing the plug. It's a WHOLE lot easier to drill and tap the heads once...and this is a simple job with a hand held drill...cut the spark plug-sized terminal off, replace with a #8 or #10 size terminal, and mount with a socket head cap screw...DONE! You never have to touch them again. You just have to get used to seeing a much higher reading on your CHT readout...mine were about 75 higher, and probably a lot more accurate than the ones sticking up in the "breeze". I can't recall just where I saw the specifics of installing the spark plug probes as per the factory, but they definitely tell you to take the washer off....(%$#@*&?+*# ) them! Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system; also building a new pair of snow skis On Dec 20, 2008, at 11:48 PM, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote: > > Hi Lynn > > You are right with your assumption. I was talking with a couple of > guys with Jab engines who told me the probe should be sandwiched > between the base of the plug (Hex section) and the washer. > > I had always sandwiched mine between the washer and the head so > that it was reading directly from the head itself. > > Anyway, as you found out a few mm can make a huge difference. > > I just went thru my install manual to find out the right position > as I assume the temps Jab quote are based on a very specific > location. I haven't found it yet. > > Gary > > Gary Algate > SMC, Exploration > Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655 > > > This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the > addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of > this message by persons or entities other than the intended > recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, > kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the > message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for > any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may > arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. > This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we > have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe > and happy Christmas". > > > Lynn Matteson > Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > 21/12/2008 02:36 AM > Please respond to > kitfox-list@matronics.com > > To > kitfox-list@matronics.com > cc > Subject > Re: Kitfox-List: Re: CHT's > > > > You're right, Jim...mine did read higher when I screwed them right > down onto the head...by about 75. This is because when the > thermocouple is sticking up into the air...(remember that the point > where the reading is taken is right where the iron wire and the > constantan wire come together...usually where the crimp on the spark > plug terminal holds the wires together)...the reading is of the crimp > of the terminal, influenced by the air passing by. If the terminal > crimp is 3/8" from the area that sits under the spark plug, there is > a loss of heat right there. Bend the terminal up into the air to > allow it to clear the fins, and you've moved the "reading spot" > further away from the head and into the airstream, which further > cools the reading. When Gary positioned his terminal above the spark > plug washer...if I'm reading his post correctly...he was moving the > terminal/probe away from the head, and the washer then became an > insulator of sorts...at least as much as a copper washer can be > called an insulator. Granted, the terminal now contacts the spark > plug, but think of where most of the metal in a spark plug > resides...away from the head and in the airstream. This theory is all > based on how I interpret Gary's explanation of where he moved the > probes/terminals. If this isn't where he positioned his terminals/ > probes, I'll go sit in the corner with a pointy hat on my head. > > When this topic was first visited, and I followed the Australian > gent's lead and attached my probes right on the heads, I also > followed someone else's suggestion and took a CHT spark plug terminal/ > probe and installed it under my #1 cylinder to compare readings of > the new placement and the old "between the plug and the plug washer" > factory-suggested location, and indeed there was about a 75 > difference between the two, the "flat on the head, small electrical > terminal" location being the hotter of the two. You might temporarily > "borrow" a CHT probe from one of the other cylinders and then you'll > be comparing readings taken from just the one cylinder instead of > "identical" cylinders. Once you're satisfied, just swap it back. > > Can you fix him up with a hand-held radio for the time being? > > Lynn Matteson > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs > Sensenich 62x46 > flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition > system; > also building a new pair of snow skis > > > On Dec 20, 2008, at 12:00 AM, Jim Crowder wrote: > > > Gary and Lynn, > > > > As I remember Lynns temp actually read higher with his new > > placement. Am I right about that? I tapped the small holes > > between my plugs and plan to fasten my sensors there via machine > > screws as Lynn did. I plan to leave one sensor as a standard plug > > ring and mount if conventionally. I will look for differences and > > even place it on an identical cylinder and then compare that way. > > > > > > > > My metal hangar is unheated and it has been soooo cooollldddd > > here. A week ago it got to nearly 20 below zero. My fingers get > > so cold that when I drop a washer or nut, I have great trouble > > picking it up off of the concrete floor. Most days I still get > > four hours or so of work in, but Im not too productive. My son > > has now flown his RV8 four times. He has it in my hangar. He is > > having radio problems. It is the only real problem he is having. > > It is very noisy and cuts out on transmissions at times. He was > > going up for a second time today and it quit transmitting > > completely. He cut his gain settings way back from what the > > factory had them at and that helped with the noise. We now suspect > > he may have two problems with it. Before it always worked on the > > ground. Now it doesnt transmit at all. It receives beautifully. > > The problem is he doesnt want to work on the radio, he wants to > fly. > > > > > > > > Jim Crowder > > > > > > > > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox- > > list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gary.algate@sandvik.com > > Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 5:13 PM > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: CHT's > > > > > > > > > > Lynn FYI > > > > yesterday I thought, for interest sake, that I'd fit my CHT probes > > above the spark plug washer to see if I got similar results as you. > > (Previously I just had mine sandwiched below the plug washer and > > the head. > > > > My Temps dropped by about 30 deg F! > > > > Previously my cruise CHT's were around 280-290 and now they're > > around 260. > > > > Regards and Merry Christmas > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > Gary Algate > > SMC, Exploration > > Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655 > > > > > > This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the > > addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of > > this message by persons or entities other than the intended > > recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, > > kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the > > message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for > > any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may > > arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. > > This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we > > have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe > > and happy Christmas". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lynn Matteson > > > > Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > > 20/12/2008 09:12 AM > > Please respond to > > kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > > To > > > > kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > > cc > > > > Subject > > > > Kitfox-List: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We (in lower, Lower Michigan) got about 5-11" of new snow today, > > (added to the 3-4" last week) but the damn stuff didn't quit until > > flying hours...for me....were over for the day. Plus, the driveway > > into the hangar was too deep to negotiate, and the plow guy was not > > available. Tomorrow will/should be better for getting my ski- > equipped > > Kitfox out and enjoy the snow-flying. If this stuff would just come > > 2-3" at a time, I could handle the driveway and parking (the car) > > problems, but when it comes in "wholesale" amounts, it's just too > > much...damn! > > Oh well, I've got a fresh bottle of Baileys Irish Cream to help me > > through the night, plenty of wood brought inside to feed the fire, > > and plenty of projects (vacuum bagging and TIG-welding practicing to > > be done for the next pair of skis) to keep me busy. And you guys > have > > got your Kitfox-building projects, so all is well. :) > > > > Lynn Matteson > > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger > > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs > > Sensenich 62x46 > > flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition > > system; > > also building a new pair of snow skis > > > > > > > > > > > > =========== > > -- > > Gifts!) > > on > > about > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > =========== > > Forum - > > FAQ, > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List > > =========== > > WEB FORUMS - > > =========== > > > > > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/ > > Navigator?Kitfox-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com > > =================================== _- > > =================================== _- > > ================================== > > > =========================================================== ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:45:35 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: skis Here's a shot of Wipaire's Air Glide ski that I saw at Oshkosh this year. I'm following the basic shape of these, in designing my non- repositionable skis. The lower picture is of Trickair ski. I though that I would pattern mine with the wider front area, and with no rear ski area directly behind the wheel...sort of like a cross between the two types shown....like the Wipaire in footprint, but the other in being a fiberglass-covered tubing frame, like I have built before. If these pics don't come out in the order that I've placed then, the Wipaire has its name on it, the Trickair is yellow, and the other two pics are my skis...the one shot on snow is at Oshkosh. You can see how far my present skis ride above the snow, creating lots of drag. The next set will be MUCH lower to the ground. From the skis that I've seen, the measurements that I've taken, and calculations that I've made, 1 lb/sq. inch seems about right. I'm no engineer, and I pretty much just "eyeball it" when it comes to designing/copying something, but then again, I don't try to sell it either. : ) My present skis have about 480 sq. in of area, with the wheel hole area removed from the overall size. I plan on shooting for 660 sq. in, according to a "note to self" dated 11-30-08, so I must have some figures somewhere in all my notes that led me to that conclusion. : ) I measured my CFI's 1500 Federal skis, and they came out to 764 sq. inches for the two skis (64" x 6") That comes out to about 2 lbs/sq. in. of loading. I've come to the conclusion that about 15" for the front width, and 6" for the part that parallels the wheel will be what I'm shooting for. In a 60" long ski this will give me about 630 sq. in. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it...for now. Oh, one more thing, Paul, I'm gonna go with the UHMW for the initial test of the framework/pedestal-mounting system, then work on the vacuum bagging/plywood bending, fiberglass-covering part later. On Dec 21, 2008, at 1:22 AM, Paul Franz - Merlin GT wrote: (edited) > Wouldn't adding length and flexibility improve flotation, reduce > friction and greatly > improve maneuverability? > > I know Lynn is building new skis and using vacuum bagging to build > up the bases. If it > were designed as skis for powder, I'd think you'd want a length to > width ratio of > about 25 with slightly wider front tips and a loading of about 1.0 > lbs/in=B2. So that > would mean for a 1200 lb aircraft with two skis, each ski would be > designed for 600 lb > load and would have 600 in=B2. Given a length to width ratio of 25 > that would be mean > each ski would be 4.9" wide and 120" long and be flexible enough so > that the tips > could flex up going over ruts and ridges with a loading center > about 50" from the rear > tip of the ski. > > Have skis of such dimensions been tried? > > Paul A. Franz > Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT > Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP > Bellevue WA ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:59:19 AM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Kitfox-List: Snowmobile Skis Actually, they worked fine, even in some fairly deep snow. The airplane only weighed about 520 pounds, roughly the same as many typical snowmobiles. The total weight of the skis was actually quite a bit less than the tires and wheels. I'll see if I can dig up some photos. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert From: patrick reilly To: kitfox matronics Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 10:34 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic Tom, That's not funny. Deke Morrisse in MI built his out of the plastic skins from Artic Cat used on their snow machines. I bought a set of skins and will have them on mine next year. They aren't real big so you need packed snow I would imagine. How about that Deke? Those snow machine skies you designed won't work in deep snow, or will they? Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford, IL > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic > From: nahsikhs@elltel.net > Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 15:39:50 -0800 > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > Lynn, > At least you have skis so some fun to look foreword to. We have plenty of snow in Central washing and more on the way. I wonder if I can take the skis off my snowmobile and put them on my kitfox. > > Merry Christmas to all, card attached. > > -------- > Tom Jones > Classic IV > 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp > Ellensburg, WA > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220208#220208 > > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/snow_trees_card_202.jpg > > > > &==================== > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:03:31 AM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Kitfox-List: Snowmobile Skis Note, topic change. The skins were 1/4 thick by 8" wide by about 4' long and were intended for powder skis. You can get them on ebay for less than $30 for a set. With 10" of new snow, unless I was in dire straits to go somewhere, I think my airplane would just stay in the hangar. I had no problem in six to eight inches of snow, but drew the line there. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 11:07 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic > > Deke and Pat- > > How wide and long are these "skins"? What is the area of each ski (length > in inches, multiplied by the width in inches)? Like Leonard Perry pointed > out the other day, you need all the area you can get in soft powder snow > (or words to that effect). > Maybe skis could be added to that list of useless things in aviation: > Fuel left back at the hangar.....altitude above you....runway behind > you.....(can't think of the others)...and wider skis left on the drawing > table. > > I had a heck of a time getting out of 10" of snow today, and earlier this > year from about 9" of snow. Granted, my skis are wheel- penetration skis, > and I have re-thought the design, but it seems to make sense to have all > the area you can get...I think. > > Lynn Matteson > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs > Sensenich 62x46 > flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition > system; > also building a new pair of snow skis > > > On Dec 20, 2008, at 10:34 PM, patrick reilly wrote: > >> Tom, That's not funny. Deke Morrisse in MI built his out of the plastic >> skins from Artic Cat used on their snow machines. I bought a set of >> skins and will have them on mine next year. They aren't real big so you >> need packed snow I would imagine. How about that Deke? Those snow >> machine skies you designed won't work in deep snow, or will they? >> >> Pat Reilly >> Mod 3 582 Rebuild >> Rockford, IL >> >> > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic >> > From: nahsikhs@elltel.net >> > Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 15:39:50 -0800 >> > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >> > >> > >> > Lynn, >> > At least you have skis so some fun to look foreword to. We have >> plenty of snow in Central washing and more on the way. I wonder if I can >> take the skis off my snowmobile and put them on my kitfox. >> > >> > Merry Christmas to all, card attached. >> > >> > -------- >> > Tom Jones >> > Classic IV >> > 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp >> > Ellensburg, WA >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Read this topic online here: >> > >> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220208#220208 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Attachments: >> > >> > http://forums.matronics.com//files/snow_trees_card_202.jpg >> > >> > >> > >> > >> &==================== >> > >> > >> > >> >> ============================================================ _- >> ============================================================ _- >> =========================================================== > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:13:09 AM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Kitfox-List: Snowmobile Skis That's quite an absolute statement! No, I wouldn't have tried them in 12" snow, but there are a lot of different types of snow between that and ice. At one time there were people who said "If man were meant to fly, he'd have wings". Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert ----- Original Message ----- From: "akflyer" Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 11:13 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic > > There is NO WAY the skis from a sled, unless it was from an old twin track > alpine (and that would be marginal), will hold the KF up on anything but > very hard packed snow or ice. They wont even hold up my sled in powder. > If you try landing in 12" of powder you are going straight to he bottom. > > -------- > DO NOT ARCHIVE > Leonard Perry > Soldotna AK > Avid "C" / Mk IV > 582 IVO IFA > Full Lotus 1260 > As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over. > > hander outer of humorless darwin awards > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220364#220364 > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:21:11 AM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis Something I've mulled over to build for my S5 are skis built on a platform of snowboard skis. If you take a look at them, they're light, very strong, a lot of surface area, already have the curves built into them, and can be purchased used for a reasonable price. All they would need is a backbone for mounting on the axle, grab handles, and the hardware. I'm still looking around for a matching pair to tinker with. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:13 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowmobile Skis We've got about 10" right now, as of yesterday when I flew, and I'd draw a dotted line at about that height, maybe making it a solid line at 12" or more. I hope the new snow sticks around until I get new skis built, or I'll have to travel much further to test them. : ) Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system; also building a new pair of snow skis do not archive On Dec 21, 2008, at 8:03 AM, fox5flyer wrote: > > > Note, topic change. The skins were 1/4 thick by 8" wide by about > 4' long and were intended for powder skis. You can get them on > ebay for less than $30 for a set. With 10" of new snow, unless I > was in dire straits to go somewhere, I think my airplane would just > stay in the hangar. I had no problem in six to eight inches of > snow, but drew the line there. > Deke Morisse ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:11:39 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowmobile Skis This looks like a perfect time to throw in this that I found during my Google search for "airplane skis" : ********************* The National Research Council of Canada (NRC) report MM-225, Aircraft Ski Research in Canada, discusses the comprehensive research programme aimed at the development of improved skis for aircraft and provides information about the use of skis. The following paragraph paraphrases relevant portions of the publication: Early in the tests, it was found that sliding resistance and adhesion were far more dependent upon snow conditions than on the design of the ski. Further, the skiing quality of the snow changed continually and it was not unusual to observe marked changes taking place in less than an hour. The publication notes that there are times when the sliding resistance of aircraft skis is so great that it is impossible to reach flying speed. It was found that the sliding resistance of a ski could be divided into (a) the resistance component due to compacting the snow while forming the ski track, analogous to form drag in aerodynamics, and (b) the resistance component due to friction. In the case of dry snow, the ski resistance is considered to be made up of (a) solid friction, most of which occurs near the toe of the ski, (b) viscous drag due to shearing in the very thin film of water between the ski and the areas of contact, and (c) drag due to surface tension forces acting at the perimeters of the water drops in contact with the ski bottom. In very wet snow, the entire bottom of the ski is wet and most of the resistance is due to viscous drag, which varies as the square of the speed. All three components of ski friction -- solid friction, viscous drag, and surface tension drag -- increase with an increase in contact between the ski and snow and are therefore greater for soft snow than for hard snow. ******************** Sorry I can't credit who wrote it, or where I found it, as I was just searching and grabbing whatever seemed to be of interest to me. Perhaps if I knew where to find the NRC report MM-225..... I think this makes it sound like any ski is the right ski of the conditions for it are right, or very wrong if the conditions are wrong. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system; also building a new pair of snow skis On Dec 21, 2008, at 8:12 AM, fox5flyer wrote: > > > That's quite an absolute statement! No, I wouldn't have tried them > in 12" snow, but there are a lot of different types of snow between > that and ice. At one time there were people who said "If man were > meant to fly, he'd have wings". > Deke Morisse > Mikado Michigan > S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT > "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but > progress." > - Joseph Joubert > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "akflyer" > To: > Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 11:13 PM > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic > > >> >> There is NO WAY the skis from a sled, unless it was from an old >> twin track alpine (and that would be marginal), will hold the KF >> up on anything but very hard packed snow or ice. They wont even >> hold up my sled in powder. If you try landing in 12" of powder you >> are going straight to he bottom. >> >> -------- >> DO NOT ARCHIVE >> Leonard Perry ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:22:21 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Slipping with Flaps At 11:26 PM 12/20/2008, you wrote: >Seemed like a good alternative to lots of spiraling where you could >get too slow and spin if you weren't careful. Anyone else ever do this? Yeah, but it's really uncomfortable holding the doors open with your feet in a Kitfox. ;-) Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade 100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:58:01 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Snowmobile Skis From: "akflyer" I can't go into theory on why one works and why one doesn't (if you get an engineer involved you just end up with a SWAG) All my knowledge is based on real life experience, in many different planes, with many different ski manufactures and designs. I can say, without hesitation, that I will take a larger ski any day of the week over a smaller ski, for deep snow. On ice, or hard pack it does not matter, you could get away with tiny skis, but you veer off just a tad and hit the powder and you are gonna have lots of time to think about building bigger skis as you strap on your snow shoes and spend half a day packing down a runway to get yourself back outa some remote area you dropped into and were not equipped to deal with. A Buddy put his PA12 on its back and we had to form a rescue party to go get him and the plane. One PA12 was on Anderson board skis (plywood skis with Teflon bottoms that are quite large), one was on airglass 2000's (nice fiberglass ski but smaller than the Anderson's) and a 180 on little bitty federal skis. Snow was only about 3' deep and the board skis did AWESOME, the Airglass performed well but not quite as good, and the 180 was a major PITA. I spend half the time pushing and pulling on the tail of the 180 trying to get him turned around at the end of the strip... then he could not build flying speed to get off so we ran the 12 up and down to try and pack it. Didnt work because of the large surface area it just stayed on top and did not really compress the snow. At the end of the day we ended packing the runway on snowshoes. As far as snowmobile ski's or "ski skins" The same problem... on a snowmachine, in deep powder the skis support nothing as they are in the air. The thing rides on the track and belly pan when you stop. The skis are just for turning. I have tried wide parabolic skis (lotsa $) and they still dont help too much on a snowmachine. By your admittance that you would not take them into 12" of snow pretty much backs up what I said. I know these are experimental, but I would hate for someone to go wad up a perfectly good plane just because they thought the snowmachine skis would work... Check out supercub.org The hot ticket for skis are a set of airglass that you put on new bottoms 2" wider than the ski all the way around, why? because the increased flotation is worth alot more than a little bit of drag. Friction on top of the snow is a whole lot less than having the ski buried , the prop hitting snow, and the gear legs dragging through the snow. -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over. hander outer of humorless darwin awards Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220395#220395 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:02:05 AM PST US From: patrick reilly Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis Deke=2C I like the snowboard idea. I like it alot. do not archive Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford=2C IL From: fox5flyer@idealwifi.netTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: Kitfox-L ist: Snowboards for skisDate: Sun=2C 21 Dec 2008 08:20:51 -0500 Something I've mulled over to build for my S5 are skis built on a platform of snowboard skis. If you take a look at them=2C they're light=2C very str ong=2C a lot of surface area=2C already have the curves built into them=2C and can be purchased used for a reasonable price. All they would need is a backbone for mounting on the axle=2C grab handles=2C and the hardware. I' m still looking around for a matching pair to tinker with. Deke MorisseMikado MichiganS5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory=2C but progress."- Joseph Joubert ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:28:04 AM PST US From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis Deke, I have been toying with that idea for a year or so. Even gone to a few used Ski sales looking for a pair of matching boards. I have decided that I want to build wheel penetration skis with the entire board cut out behind the wheel. This would make them easy to put on and I think would still provide a lot of floatation behind the axel. The one thing I don't like with this approach is the good boards have really sharp edges on the sides. Better for snow boarding, but I think slightly turned up edges may be desirable for ktifox skis. Randy _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fox5flyer Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 6:21 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis Something I've mulled over to build for my S5 are skis built on a platform of snowboard skis. If you take a look at them, they're light, very strong, a lot of surface area, already have the curves built into them, and can be purchased used for a reasonable price. All they would need is a backbone for mounting on the axle, grab handles, and the hardware. I'm still looking around for a matching pair to tinker with. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:42:19 AM PST US From: patrick reilly Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Snowmobile Skis Deke=2C Jeesss=2C I guess I opened up a can of worms. It is obvious that yo ur snow machine skis won't handle deep powder by looking at them. That is w hy I asked what your experience with them was. Anyway keep us posted on the snowboard to ski project. I'm going to keep my eye out for a matched pair. too. do not archive Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford=2C IL From: fox5flyer@idealwifi.netTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: Kitfox-L ist: Snowmobile SkisDate: Sun=2C 21 Dec 2008 07:58:11 -0500 Actually=2C they worked fine=2C even in some fairly deep snow. The airplan e only weighed about 520 pounds=2C roughly the same as many typical snowmob iles. The total weight of the skis was actually quite a bit less than the tires and wheels. I'll see if I can dig up some photos. Deke MorisseMikado MichiganS5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory=2C but progress."- Joseph Joubert From: patrick reilly Sent: Saturday=2C December 20=2C 2008 10:34 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic Tom=2C That's not funny. Deke Morrisse in MI built his out of the plastic s kins from Artic Cat used on their snow machines. I bought a set of skins an d will have them on mine next year. They aren't real big so you need packed snow I would imagine. How about that Deke? Those snow machine skies you de signed won't work in deep snow=2C or will they? Pat ReillyMod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford=2C IL> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off to pic> From: nahsikhs@elltel.net> Date: Fri=2C 19 Dec 2008 15:39:50 -0800> To s" > > Lynn=2C> At least you have skis so some fun to look foreword to. We have plenty of snow in Central washing and more on the way. I wonder if I can take the skis off my snowmobile and put them on my kitfox.> > Merry Christmas to all=2C card attached.> > --------> Tom Jones> Classic IV> 503 Rotax=2C 72 inch Two blade Warp> Ellensburg=2C WA> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php? p=220208#220208> > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//fi les/snow_trees_card_202.jpg> > > > &============= ========> > > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chr ef="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref ="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:42:19 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: skis I just found some figures for ski sizes that I had measured a while back. This first is a Cub ski, measuring 8" x 48" for 768 sq. in for the two skis. The second is a Federal ski that measured 8" x 63" for 1008 sq. inches for the two skis. I didn't happen to notice an I.D. plate on the Federal ski or I would have written it down. I'm assuming that if the Federals belonging to my CFI were a 1500's, and measured 6" x 63", then the 8" x 63" would be for a heavier plane. I offer this info for those that are contemplating building skis for their Kitfox. As I am doing, you could get a rough idea of how big the skis have to be, but it would be just that...ROUGH. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system; also building a new pair of snow skis ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:48:55 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis What you're proposing, Randy, is basically how the Wipaire skis are designed. I have a picture of them, and it looks like the edges are turned up slightly. I also believe that's how Leonard made the bottoms that he attached to his skis. I'm going to attach side "rails" onto my new ski bottoms, such that they bend up at the edges, and act like spray rails on a boat. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system; also building a new pair of snow skis On Dec 21, 2008, at 12:26 PM, Randy Daughenbaugh wrote: > Deke, > > I have been toying with that idea for a year or so. Even gone to a > few used Ski sales looking for a pair of matching boards. > > > I have decided that I want to build wheel penetration skis with the > entire board cut out behind the wheel. This would make them easy > to put on and I think would still provide a lot of floatation > behind the axel. > > > The one thing I dont like with this approach is the good boards > have really sharp edges on the sides. Better for snow boarding, > but I think slightly turned up edges may be desirable for ktifox skis. > > > Randy > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:05:54 AM PST US From: patrick reilly Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis Randy=2C Deke=2C And Lynn=2C How about attaching "spray rails" to the edges of the board made out of 1/8" or so aluminum. And if you don't cut out the board completely behind the wheel=2C attach a bent up piece behind the whe el to eliminate the cheese cutter effect. Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford=2C IL> From: lynnmatt@jps.net> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowboard s for skis> Date: Sun=2C 21 Dec 2008 12:48:53 -0500> To: kitfox-list@matron et>> > What you're proposing=2C Randy=2C is basically how the Wipaire skis are > designed. I have a picture of them=2C and it looks like the edges are > turned up slightly. I also believe that's how Leonard made the > bottoms that he attached to his skis.> I'm going to attach side "rails" onto my ne w ski bottoms=2C such that > they bend up at the edges=2C and act like spra y rails on a boat.> > Lynn Matteson> Kitfox IV Speedster=2C taildragger> Ja biru 2200=2C #2062=2C 596+ hrs> Sensenich 62x46> flying again after rebuild =2C and new Electroair direct-fire ignition > system=3B> also building a ne w pair of snow skis> > > > > On Dec 21=2C 2008=2C at 12:26 PM=2C Randy Daug henbaugh wrote:> > > Deke=2C> >> > I have been toying with that idea for a year or so. Even gone to a > > few used Ski sales looking for a pair of mat ching boards.> >> >> >> > I have decided that I want to build wheel penetra tion skis with the > > entire board cut out behind the wheel. This would ma ke them easy > > to put on and I think would still provide a lot of floatat ion > > behind the axel.> >> >> >> > The one thing I don=92t like with this approach is the good boards > > have really sharp edges on the sides. Bett er for snow boarding=2C > > but I think slightly turned up edges may be des ========================> _ =========> > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:23:26 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: skis From: "akflyer" The original Avid ski's are about 10" X 59". You can go from there. I have never seen a set of skis for a cub that were only 48" long. My guess would be they are federals, off an old J3 or something. No modern skis are that small ( atleast no one up here is flying any that small) I would say alot depends on the local conditions you would be flying. If your average snow depth is 10" and its hard pack, stay small. If your landing in areas with 4' of powder, go big or stay home lol... -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over. hander outer of humorless darwin awards Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220410#220410 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:23:26 AM PST US From: patrick reilly Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: skis Lynn=2C Are you going to have keels on the bottom similar to the yellow ski ? Also=2C I can't see from the picture=2C how do the skis attach to the axl e? Do they screw to both ends=2C or just the inboard end of the axle? The w hite one doesn't seem to have any mount for the outboard end of the axle. Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford=2C IL> From: lynnmatt@jps.net> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: skis> Dat e: Sun=2C 21 Dec 2008 06:38:06 -0500> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com> > Here 's a shot of Wipaire's Air Glide ski that I saw at Oshkosh this > year. I'm following the basic shape of these=2C in designing my non- > repositionabl e skis. The lower picture is of Trickair ski. I though > that I would patte rn mine with the wider front area=2C and with no rear > ski area directly b ehind the wheel...sort of like a cross between the > two types shown....lik e the Wipaire in footprint=2C but the other in > being a fiberglass-covered tubing frame=2C like I have built before. If > these pics don't come out i n the order that I've placed then=2C the > Wipaire has its name on it=2C th e Trickair is yellow=2C and the other two > pics are my skis...the one shot on snow is at Oshkosh. You can see > how far my present skis ride above th e snow=2C creating lots of drag. > The next set will be MUCH lower to the g round.> > From the skis that I've seen=2C the measurements that I've taken =2C and > calculations that I've made=2C 1 lb/sq. inch seems about right. I 'm no > engineer=2C and I pretty much just "eyeball it" when it comes to > designing/copying something=2C but then again=2C I don't try to sell it > e ither. : )> > My present skis have about 480 sq. in of area=2C with the whe el hole > area removed from the overall size. I plan on shooting for 660 sq . > in=2C according to a "note to self" dated 11-30-08=2C so I must have so me > figures somewhere in all my notes that led me to that > conclusion. : ) I measured my CFI's 1500 Federal skis=2C and they came > out to 764 sq. i nches for the two skis (64" x 6") That comes out to > about 2 lbs/sq. in. o f loading.> > I've come to the conclusion that about 15" for the front widt h=2C and > 6" for the part that parallels the wheel will be what I'm shooti ng > for. In a 60" long ski this will give me about 630 sq. in. That's my > story and I'm stickin' to it...for now.> > Oh=2C one more thing=2C Paul=2C I'm gonna go with the UHMW for the initial > test of the framework/pedesta l-mounting system=2C then work on the > vacuum bagging/plywood bending=2C f iberglass-covering part later.> > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:28:04 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Snowboards for skis From: "akflyer" http://www.airglas.com/ gives lots of pics of some skis that work pretty darn well. My skis were made by a fellow that used to work at airglas. He made 5 sets so I am told of the size I have. It would not take much to pop a mold off and lay some up, or I may be able to track him down and see if he would make another run. -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over. hander outer of humorless darwin awards Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220412#220412 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:30:39 AM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Kitfox-List: Snowmobile Skis I thought I said they worked fine, but maybe I imagined it? I didn't build them for 3' of snow, nor did I build my airplane to fly 600 miles per hour or have a 2000lb useful load. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I built them for a model 2 with a pretty good idea of their limitations and I used them with those limitations in mind. I never had a problem over three winters and lots of snow time. I'm still kicking myself for letting them go with the airplane when I sold it. Naysaying doesn't help the experimental movement at all. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert Quote: "As far as snowmobile ski's or "ski skins" The same problem... on a snowmachine, in deep powder the skis support nothing as they are in the air. The thing rides on the track and belly pan when you stop. The skis are just for turning. I have tried wide parabolic skis (lotsa $) and they still dont help too much on a snowmachine. By your admittance that you would not take them into 12" of snow pretty much backs up what I said. I know these are experimental, but I would hate for someone to go wad up a perfectly good plane just because they thought the snowmachine skis would work..." ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:35:00 AM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis I think they would work just fine, but not for 18 feet of fresh powder. I'm not sure that there is any real importance in the turned up edges. They're plenty strong as they are. The would just need a good backbone, but that's easy. Just be aware of their limitations. Go for it and keep us in the loop. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Randy Daughenbaugh To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 12:26 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis Deke, I have been toying with that idea for a year or so. Even gone to a few used Ski sales looking for a pair of matching boards. I have decided that I want to build wheel penetration skis with the entire board cut out behind the wheel. This would make them easy to put on and I think would still provide a lot of floatation behind the axel. The one thing I don't like with this approach is the good boards have really sharp edges on the sides. Better for snow boarding, but I think slightly turned up edges may be desirable for ktifox skis. Randy ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fox5flyer Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 6:21 AM To: Kitfox List Subject: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis Something I've mulled over to build for my S5 are skis built on a platform of snowboard skis. If you take a look at them, they're light, very strong, a lot of surface area, already have the curves built into them, and can be purchased used for a reasonable price. All they would need is a backbone for mounting on the axle, grab handles, and the hardware. I'm still looking around for a matching pair to tinker with. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click onthis year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts!List Contribution Web Site:--> http://www.matronics.com/contributionThank you for your generous support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. - The Kitfox-List Email Forum ---> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:03:42 AM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Kitfox-List: Snowmobile Ski Skin photos These are fairly low resolution taken a bunch of years ago, but will give an idea how the skis were put together. As I recall, I had about $90 in them. Even if one doesn't want to go with something like these, I'm sure they will lead to inspirations for other ideas. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:27:19 AM PST US From: Joel Mapes Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Slipping with FlapsRe: Slipping with Flaps Many years ago I had a '59 straight-tail 172 with 145hp=2C fixed pitch and 40 degree Johnson bar flaps. The warning against slips with full flaps is g ood advice. Trust me. 8 inches of snow here in Puget Sound country=2C where nobody has skis for t heir plane. At least my fuselage is back from the welder and for the first time in over a year has gear underneath again. Merry Christmas to all=2CJoel Model 5 912S do not archive _________________________________________________________________ Life on your PC is safer=2C easier=2C and more enjoyable with Windows Vista =AE. ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:27:21 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic With skis in powder snow bigger is better. There is obviously a limit to diminishing returns. When the skis get too heavy and they start to reduce airspeed. Another factor is that the skis like to track straight so larger skis will be harder to turn the plane in deep snow. Of course larger skis also make ground looping a bit more difficult. All a matter of compromise. If you have lots of large lakes or open fields and thousands of powder snow then fit the biggest thing you can fly. If you are dropping into paved run3ways and occasionally short fields where turning around may be a problem and if you see mostly packed snow then go for smaller penetration skis. Just my 0.02 BTW our friend Dave Fisher has a new video on youtube. It's about fifteen minutes long so you will want a high speed connection but it is easy to see the depth to which a ski will sink. He's pretty good as getting the plane to turn around but it's not nearly as fast turning as it was a couple of years ago. I'll bet he has new longer skis. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of akflyer Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 12:44 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic There is NO WAY the skis from a sled, unless it was from an old twin track alpine (and that would be marginal), will hold the KF up on anything but very hard packed snow or ice. They wont even hold up my sled in powder. If you try landing in 12" of powder you are going straight to he bottom. -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over. hander outer of humorless darwin awards Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220364#220364 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:44:35 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Slipping with Flaps - C172 From: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT" On Sun, December 21, 2008 11:26 am, Joel Mapes wrote: > > Many years ago I had a '59 straight-tail 172 with 145hp, fixed pitch and 40 degree > Johnson bar flaps. The warning against slips with full flaps is good advice. Trust me. Would you care to elaborate? -- Paul A. Franz Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP Bellevue WA 425.241.1618 Cell ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 12:58:17 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis Before you start doing anything with aluminium, especially in direct contact with snow, consider the fact that bare aluminium will ice up like nothing you can imagine... even under the coldest driest conditions. The very best thing to have in contact with the snow is Teflon plastic... My father built several komitiks (sleighs) to pull behind his snowmobile. The best thing he found for running surfaces was Krazy Karpet. Most hospitals have thousands of them turned in by the parents of injured children for free. They are easy to attach using strips of Teflon plastic and screws and they are easy to replace.... and there is no way you will ever get them to ice up! KrazyKarpet comes in different colours so if you want you can colour code the year you last recovered the base of your skis. Noel From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of patrick reilly Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 2:35 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis Randy, Deke, And Lynn, How about attaching "spray rails" to the edges of the board made out of 1/8" or so aluminum. And if you don't cut out the board completely behind the wheel, attach a bent up piece behind the wheel to eliminate the cheese cutter effect. Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford, IL > From: lynnmatt@jps.net > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis > Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 12:48:53 -0500 > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > What you're proposing, Randy, is basically how the Wipaire skis are > designed. I have a picture of them, and it looks like the edges are > turned up slightly. I also believe that's how Leonard made the > bottoms that he attached to his skis. > I'm going to attach side "rails" onto my new ski bottoms, such that > they bend up at the edges, and act like spray rails on a boat. > > Lynn Matteson > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs > Sensenich 62x46 > flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition > system; > also building a new pair of snow skis > > > > > On Dec 21, 2008, at 12:26 PM, Randy Daughenbaugh wrote: > > > Deke, > > > > I have been toying with that idea for a year or so. Even gone to a > > few used Ski sales looking for a pair of matching boards. > > > > > > > > I have decided that I want to build wheel penetration skis with the > > entire board cut out behind the wheel. This would make them easy > > to put on and I think would still provide a lot of floatation > > behind the axel. > > > > > > > > The one thing I don't like with this approach is the good boards > > have really sharp edges on the sides. Better for snow boarding, > > but I think slightly turned up edges may be desirable for ktifox skis. > > > > > > > > Randy > > > > > > > >= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, &g=================== > > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:22:13 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis What is the square inch area of these boards that you propose using, Pat and Deke? When I was taxiing the day before yesterday, I watched the snow kicked up by the tire pile up on the tail of my ski, so I'm just not sure whether the cheese cutter effect is doing the "damage" back there or if it's the wheel itself. In either case, having no ski back there keeps the snow from accumulating there. And of course if you go without the wheel, you eliminate the problem altogether. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system; also building a new pair of snow skis On Dec 21, 2008, at 1:04 PM, patrick reilly wrote: > Randy, Deke, And Lynn, How about attaching "spray rails" to the > edges of the board made out of 1/8" or so aluminum. And if you > don't cut out the board completely behind the wheel, attach a bent > up piece behind the wheel to eliminate the cheese cutter effect. > > Pat Reilly > Mod 3 582 Rebuild > Rockford, IL > > > From: lynnmatt@jps.net > > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis > > Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 12:48:53 -0500 > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > > > > What you're proposing, Randy, is basically how the Wipaire skis are > > designed. I have a picture of them, and it looks like the edges are > > turned up slightly. I also believe that's how Leonard made the > > bottoms that he attached to his skis. > > I'm going to attach side "rails" onto my new ski bottoms, such that > > they bend up at the edges, and act like spray rails on a boat. > > > > Lynn Matteson > > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger > > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs > > Sensenich 62x46 > > flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition > > system; > > also building a new pair of snow skis > > > > > > > > > > On Dec 21, 2008, at 12:26 PM, Randy Daughenbaugh wrote: > > > > > Deke, > > > > > > I have been toying with that idea for a year or so. Even gone to a > > > few used Ski sales looking for a pair of matching boards. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have decided that I want to build wheel penetration skis with > the > > > entire board cut out behind the wheel. This would make them easy > > > to put on and I think would still provide a lot of floatation > > > behind the axel. > > > > > > > > > > > > The one thing I dont like with this approach is the good boards > > > have really sharp edges on the sides. Better for snow boarding, > > > but I think slightly turned up edges may be desirable for > ktifox skis. > > > > > > > > > > > > Randy > > > > > > > > > > > > > >= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > &g=================== > > > > > > > > ============================================================ _- > ============================================================ _- > =========================================================== ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 01:25:44 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: CHT's From: gary.algate@sandvik.com Thanx Lynn, Succinct and explanatory - that's why I love your posts! Gary Gary Algate SMC, Exploration Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. ?This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe and happy Christmas". Lynn Matteson Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com 21/12/2008 09:20 PM Please respond to kitfox-list@matronics.com To kitfox-list@matronics.com cc Subject Re: Kitfox-List: Re: CHT's In order to find where the Jabiru owner is placing his probe, you only have to hide and watch and listen as he/she installs them....if installing takes a few seconds and the shop is relatively quiet, they are doing as you did, Gary, installing the probe onto the new plug and screwing down so that the probe is against the head. If, however, the job takes 10 minutes per plug and the air is foul with cussing, the recalling of the plug's questionable ancestry, and perhaps a mention of some prior incestuous fornication on the part of the plug, then he/she is installing them the way the factory suggests...removing the (%$#@*&?+*# ) washer, placing the probe onto the plug, then replacing the (%$#@*&?+*# ) washer, and installing the plug. It's a WHOLE lot easier to drill and tap the heads once...and this is a simple job with a hand held drill...cut the spark plug-sized terminal off, replace with a #8 or #10 size terminal, and mount with a socket head cap screw...DONE! You never have to touch them again. You just have to get used to seeing a much higher reading on your CHT readout...mine were about 75=B0 higher, and probably a lot more accurate than the ones sticking up in the "breeze". I can't recall just where I saw the specifics of installing the spark plug probes as per the factory, but they definitely tell you to take the washer off....(%$#@*&?+*# ) them! Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system; also building a new pair of snow skis On Dec 20, 2008, at 11:48 PM, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote: > > Hi Lynn > > You are right with your assumption. I was talking with a couple of > guys with Jab engines who told me the probe should be sandwiched > between the base of the plug (Hex section) and the washer. > > I had always sandwiched mine between the washer and the head so > that it was reading directly from the head itself. > > Anyway, as you found out a few mm can make a huge difference. > > I just went thru my install manual to find out the right position > as I assume the temps Jab quote are based on a very specific > location. I haven't found it yet. > > Gary > > Gary Algate > SMC, Exploration > Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655 > > > This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the > addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of > this message by persons or entities other than the intended > recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, > kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the > message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for > any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may > arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. > ?This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we > have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe > and happy Christmas". > > > Lynn Matteson > Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > 21/12/2008 02:36 AM > Please respond to > kitfox-list@matronics.com > > To > kitfox-list@matronics.com > cc > Subject > Re: Kitfox-List: Re: CHT's > > > > You're right, Jim...mine did read higher when I screwed them right > down onto the head...by about 75=B0. This is because when the > thermocouple is sticking up into the air...(remember that the point > where the reading is taken is right where the iron wire and the > constantan wire come together...usually where the crimp on the spark > plug terminal holds the wires together)...the reading is of the crimp > of the terminal, influenced by the air passing by. If the terminal > crimp is 3/8" from the area that sits under the spark plug, there is > a loss of heat right there. Bend the terminal up into the air to > allow it to clear the fins, and you've moved the "reading spot" > further away from the head and into the airstream, which further > cools the reading. When Gary positioned his terminal above the spark > plug washer...if I'm reading his post correctly...he was moving the > terminal/probe away from the head, and the washer then became an > insulator of sorts...at least as much as a copper washer can be > called an insulator. Granted, the terminal now contacts the spark > plug, but think of where most of the metal in a spark plug > resides...away from the head and in the airstream. This theory is all > based on how I interpret Gary's explanation of where he moved the > probes/terminals. If this isn't where he positioned his terminals/ > probes, I'll go sit in the corner with a pointy hat on my head. > > When this topic was first visited, and I followed the Australian > gent's lead and attached my probes right on the heads, I also > followed someone else's suggestion and took a CHT spark plug terminal/ > probe and installed it under my #1 cylinder to compare readings of > the new placement and the old "between the plug and the plug washer" > factory-suggested location, and indeed there was about a 75=B0 > difference between the two, the "flat on the head, small electrical > terminal" location being the hotter of the two. You might temporarily > "borrow" a CHT probe from one of the other cylinders and then you'll > be comparing readings taken from just the one cylinder instead of > "identical" cylinders. Once you're satisfied, just swap it back. > > Can you fix him up with a hand-held radio for the time being? > > Lynn Matteson > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs > Sensenich 62x46 > flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition > system; > also building a new pair of snow skis > > > On Dec 20, 2008, at 12:00 AM, Jim Crowder wrote: > > > Gary and Lynn, > > > > As I remember Lynn?s temp actually read higher with his new > > placement. Am I right about that? I tapped the small holes > > between my plugs and plan to fasten my sensors there via machine > > screws as Lynn did. I plan to leave one sensor as a standard plug > > ring and mount if conventionally. I will look for differences and > > even place it on an identical cylinder and then compare that way. > > > > > > > > My metal hangar is unheated and it has been soooo cooollldddd > > here. A week ago it got to nearly 20 below zero. My fingers get > > so cold that when I drop a washer or nut, I have great trouble > > picking it up off of the concrete floor. Most days I still get > > four hours or so of work in, but I?m not too productive. My son > > has now flown his RV8 four times. He has it in my hangar. He is > > having radio problems. It is the only real problem he is having. > > It is very noisy and cuts out on transmissions at times. He was > > going up for a second time today and it quit transmitting > > completely. He cut his gain settings way back from what the > > factory had them at and that helped with the noise. We now suspect > > he may have two problems with it. Before it always worked on the > > ground. Now it doesn?t transmit at all. It receives beautifully. > > The problem is he doesn?t want to work on the radio, he wants to > fly. > > > > > > > > Jim Crowder > > > > > > > > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox- > > list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gary.algate@sandvik.com > > Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 5:13 PM > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: CHT's > > > > > > > > > > Lynn FYI > > > > yesterday I thought, for interest sake, that I'd fit my CHT probes > > above the spark plug washer to see if I got similar results as you. > > (Previously I just had mine sandwiched below the plug washer and > > the head. > > > > My Temps dropped by about 30 deg F! > > > > Previously my cruise CHT's were around 280-290 and now they're > > around 260. > > > > Regards and Merry Christmas > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > Gary Algate > > SMC, Exploration > > Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655 > > > > > > This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the > > addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of > > this message by persons or entities other than the intended > > recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, > > kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the > > message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for > > any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may > > arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. > > ?This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we > > have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe > > and happy Christmas". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lynn Matteson > > > > Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > > 20/12/2008 09:12 AM > > Please respond to > > kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > > To > > > > kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > > cc > > > > Subject > > > > Kitfox-List: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We (in lower, Lower Michigan) got about 5-11" of new snow today, > > (added to the 3-4" last week) but the damn stuff didn't quit until > > flying hours...for me....were over for the day. Plus, the driveway > > into the hangar was too deep to negotiate, and the plow guy was not > > available. Tomorrow will/should be better for getting my ski- > equipped > > Kitfox out and enjoy the snow-flying. If this stuff would just come > > 2-3" at a time, I could handle the driveway and parking (the car) > > problems, but when it comes in "wholesale" amounts, it's just too > > much...damn! > > Oh well, I've got a fresh bottle of Baileys Irish Cream to help me > > through the night, plenty of wood brought inside to feed the fire, > > and plenty of projects (vacuum bagging and TIG-welding practicing to > > be done for the next pair of skis) to keep me busy. And you guys > have > > got your Kitfox-building projects, so all is well. :) > > > > Lynn Matteson > > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger > > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs > > Sensenich 62x46 > > flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition > > system; > > also building a new pair of snow skis > > > > > > > > > > > > =========== > > -- > > Gifts!) > > on > > about > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > =========== > > Forum - > > FAQ, > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List > > =========== > > WEB FORUMS - > > =========== > > > > > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/ > > Navigator?Kitfox-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com > > ======================= ============ =5F- > > ======================= ============ =5F- > > ======================= =========== > > > ======================== =5F-======================= =========== =5F- =5F-= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- =5F-= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) =5F- =5F-= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on =5F-= the Contribution link below to find out more about =5F-= this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts! =5F- =5F-= List Contribution Web Site: =5F- =5F-= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution =5F- =5F-= Thank you for your generous support! =5F- =5F-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. =5F- =5F-======================= =========== =5F-= - The Kitfox-List Email Forum - =5F-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse =5F-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, =5F-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, =5F-= Photoshare, and much much more: =5F- =5F-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List =5F- =5F-======================= =========== =5F-= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - =5F-= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! =5F- =5F-= --> http://forums.matronics.com =5F- =5F-======================= =========== ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 01:45:31 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: skis Those "keels", although they act like keels are actually wear bars, that take the brunt of the wear that would otherwise occur if the tire should get low, or if you land hard on pavement. Yes, I'm going to have them on mine. Before I make the plywood and fiberglass bottoms, I'm going to use UHMW over the whole bottom, and then attach the wear bars to them. I haven't thought it completely through yet, but I might sandwich my "spray rails" between the bottom and the wear bars. I'll post a picture or two of my pedestal mount, as far along as it is, in a little while. The yellow skis (Trickair) attach to a stub axle that is bolted to the inboard side of the Grove landing gear. The white one...the Wipaire...attaches to the landing gear by (I think) either bolted on, or welded on, brackets. Go to http://www.trickair.com/ to see their site and maybe watch the video of their skis in action. I haven't watched it, because my computer modem is too slow. Also, look again at the picture of the yellow ski. Just to the left of the ski, is the tubing framework that the ski is built around. It is black and hard to pick out because it blends in with the display rack, which is also black. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system; also building a new pair of snow skis On Dec 21, 2008, at 1:22 PM, patrick reilly wrote: > Lynn, Are you going to have keels on the bottom similar to the > yellow ski? Also, I can't see from the picture, how do the skis > attach to the axle? Do they screw to both ends, or just the inboard > end of the axle? The white one doesn't seem to have any mount for > the outboard end of the axle. > > Pat Reilly > Mod 3 582 Rebuild > Rockford, IL > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 01:56:20 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: skis The 48" skis were on a Cub, but whether they were original or not, I didn't ask. They are about 3/4" plywood for the bottom, which has very little curve-up, another 3/4" shorter board for stiffening, and used a stamped sheet metal tapered tubular pedestal that slipped over the axle, in place of the wheel. When I flew over to where this Cub was visiting, he had been on the ground for some time, and when he tried to leave, we had to rock his wings to break him loose, as he had been frozen down. I always stand on the tips of my skis before I get into the plane. Of course, his are plywood, and mine are UHMW, so his will stick before mine, especially if he hasn't waxed them....I've never waxed mine, and maybe I should....might help. If we EVER get 4' of anything down here, I'm in front of the fire...screw the flying! Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system; also building a new pair of snow skis On Dec 21, 2008, at 1:23 PM, akflyer wrote: > > The original Avid ski's are about 10" X 59". You can go from there. > > I have never seen a set of skis for a cub that were only 48" long. > My guess would be they are federals, off an old J3 or something. > No modern skis are that small ( atleast no one up here is flying > any that small) I would say alot depends on the local conditions > you would be flying. If your average snow depth is 10" and its > hard pack, stay small. If your landing in areas with 4' of powder, > go big or stay home lol... > > -------- > DO NOT ARCHIVE > Leonard Perry > Soldotna AK > Avid "C" / Mk IV > 582 IVO IFA > Full Lotus 1260 > As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis > takes over. > > hander outer of humorless darwin awards > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220410#220410 > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 02:03:24 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowmobile Ski Skin photos But, Deke, where are the wheels? : ) You sent me these pics a couple of years ago, and indeed they inspired me to build....a bit different, but build just the same. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system; also building a new pair of snow skis do not archive On Dec 21, 2008, at 2:02 PM, fox5flyer wrote: > > These are fairly low resolution taken a bunch of years ago, but > will give an idea how the skis were put together. As I recall, I > had about $90 in them. > Even if one doesn't want to go with something like these, I'm sure > they will lead to inspirations for other ideas. > Deke Morisse > Mikado Michigan > S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT > "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but > progress." > - Joseph Joubert > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 03:02:17 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: skis Pat- Here are the pictures of the pedestal parts that I've built so far, and a mockup of the proposed ski using 3/4" wood where 4130 round tubing and flat plate will be. As you can see, the 4 holes in the "stub axle" will bolt up to the back side of the Grove gear. If I choose to leave this stub axle in place all year long...with suitable fairing made of fiberglass....installation will be simply sliding the ski onto the axle and securing the nut and cotter pin, and attaching all the safety cables, etc., ...and praying for snow. On Dec 21, 2008, at 1:22 PM, patrick reilly wrote: > Lynn, Are you going to have keels on the bottom similar to the > yellow ski? Also, I can't see from the picture, how do the skis > attach to the axle? Do they screw to both ends, or just the inboard > end of the axle? The white one doesn't seem to have any mount for > the outboard end of the axle. > > Pat Reilly > Mod 3 582 Rebuild > Rockford, IL > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 03:14:44 PM PST US From: "Ron Liebmann" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowmobile Ski Skin photos Hey there Deke, You are one great designer/fabricator for sure. Your ski's look super! Ron Schaumburg 55KF ----- Original Message ----- From: fox5flyer To: Kitfox List Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 1:02 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Snowmobile Ski Skin photos These are fairly low resolution taken a bunch of years ago, but will give an idea how the skis were put together. As I recall, I had about $90 in them. Even if one doesn't want to go with something like these, I'm sure they will lead to inspirations for other ideas. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 03:36:09 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: water overflow bottle height From: "jridgway" I understand from the ROTAX documentation that the water overflow bottle can be up to 10 inches below the radiator cap. Won't this allow the air (volume=10 inches x inner hose diameter) in the overflow line enter the engine before it actually brings up any water? Is this small amount of air OK? Does this air get purged out with water during the cooling recovery cycle? I am not using a separate expansion tank. Thanks..Jack Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220456#220456 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 03:43:38 PM PST US From: Clint Bazzill Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Slipping with Flaps HOW IN THE WORLD DO YOU SPIN OUT OF A SLIP? CLINT > Date: Sun=2C 21 Dec 2008 06:59:51 -0800> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com> F rom: bnn@nethere.com> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Slipping with Flaps> > 26 PM 12/20/2008=2C you wrote:> >Seemed like a good alternative to lots of spiraling where you could > >get too slow and spin if you weren't careful. Anyone else ever do this?> > Yeah=2C but it's really uncomfortable holding the doors open with your > feet in a Kitfox. =3B-)> > > Guy Buchanan> San D iego=2C CA> K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade> 100% and flying thanks m ====> > > ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 04:58:51 PM PST US From: "Jim Crowder" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis This sounds like what I purchased a few years ago to put under heavy objects so as to allow one person to take hold of a lead rope and easily move very heavy object around on carpet. I believe they came from a carpet layer's supply house. They were unbelievable for that. Jim Crowder From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 1:57 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis Before you start doing anything with aluminium, especially in direct contact with snow, consider the fact that bare aluminium will ice up like nothing you can imagine... even under the coldest driest conditions. The very best thing to have in contact with the snow is Teflon plastic... My father built several komitiks (sleighs) to pull behind his snowmobile. The best thing he found for running surfaces was Krazy Karpet. Most hospitals have thousands of them turned in by the parents of injured children for free. They are easy to attach using strips of Teflon plastic and screws and they are easy to replace.... and there is no way you will ever get them to ice up! KrazyKarpet comes in different colours so if you want you can colour code the year you last recovered the base of your skis. Noel From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of patrick reilly Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 2:35 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis Randy, Deke, And Lynn, How about attaching "spray rails" to the edges of the board made out of 1/8" or so aluminum. And if you don't cut out the board completely behind the wheel, attach a bent up piece behind the wheel to eliminate the cheese cutter effect. Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford, IL > From: lynnmatt@jps.net > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis > Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 12:48:53 -0500 > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > What you're proposing, Randy, is basically how the Wipaire skis are > designed. I have a picture of them, and it looks like the edges are > turned up slightly. I also believe that's how Leonard made the > bottoms that he attached to his skis. > I'm going to attach side "rails" onto my new ski bottoms, such that > they bend up at the edges, and act like spray rails on a boat. > > Lynn Matteson > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs > Sensenich 62x46 > flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition > system; > also building a new pair of snow skis > > > > > On Dec 21, 2008, at 12:26 PM, Randy Daughenbaugh wrote: > > > Deke, > > > > I have been toying with that idea for a year or so. Even gone to a > > few used Ski sales looking for a pair of matching boards. > > > > > > > > I have decided that I want to build wheel penetration skis with the > > entire board cut out behind the wheel. This would make them easy > > to put on and I think would still provide a lot of floatation > > behind the axel. > > > > > > > > The one thing I don't like with this approach is the good boards > > have really sharp edges on the sides. Better for snow boarding, > > but I think slightly turned up edges may be desirable for ktifox skis. > > > > > > > > Randy > > > > > > > >= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, &g=================== > > > http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 07:42:15 PM PST US From: Weiss Richard Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: water overflow bottle height Jack, Which engine are you using? Each model may be different. On my 912ULS, the 10 inch measurement you cite is accurate, but the formula you wrote is not for volume. The volume would be volume = r2 h. Where r is the radius of the hose and h is the length (height) of the hose. This may be air or fluid depending on your installation and how you fill the reservoir and overflow container. If the hose has air, it will eventually be released out the hole in the cap of the overflow bottle. I don't think there's a problem with that small amount of air anyway, since it can't back flow into the reservoir due to the pressure valve in the cap. When the engine heats up, the air in the hose will expand and some of it will bubble out the breather hole in the cap and be replaced with the fluid in the overflow container. If the pressure gets to great in the system, the cap valve releases and allows coolant to flow into the overflow container. Thus the air is purged out anyway. Just be sure you have sufficient coolant in the overflow container so air is not sucked into the system when it cools down. Hope this helps. Rick Weiss N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS SkyStar S/N 1 Port Orange, FL On Dec 21, 2008, at 6:34 PM, jridgway wrote: > > > > I understand from the ROTAX documentation that the water overflow > bottle can be up to 10 inches below the radiator cap. Won't this > allow the air (volume=10 inches x inner hose diameter) in the > overflow line enter the engine before it actually brings up any > water? Is this small amount of air OK? Does this air get purged out > with water during the cooling recovery cycle? I am not using a > separate expansion tank. > Thanks..Jack > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220456#220456 > > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 08:02:57 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: water overflow bottle height From: "Roger Lee" The hose comes off the bottom of the tank so it will only draw liquid. You should not have an air issue. An example would be when you take the cap off the coolant expansion tank air can get in and the fluid level is not always at the top. It has an air space at times if the level is down slightly. -------- Roger Lee Tucson, Az. Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated Rotax Service Center 520-574-1080 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220482#220482 ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 08:47:05 PM PST US From: James Shumaker Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: water overflow bottle height Jack=0A=0AYour overflow bottle is a "seperate expansion tank."=0A=0AJim Shu maker=0A=0Ado not archive=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: jridgway =0ATo: kitfox-list@matronics.co m=0ASent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 3:34:57 PM=0ASubject: Kitfox-List: wate =0A=0AI understand from the ROTAX documentati on that the water overflow bottle can be up to 10 inches below the radiator cap. Won't this allow the air (volume=10 inches x inner hose diameter) i n the overflow line enter the engine before it actually brings up any water ? Is this small amount of air OK? Does this air get purged out with water d uring the cooling recovery cycle? I am not using a separate expansion tank. =0AThanks..Jack=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://foru ======================= ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.