---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 12/22/08: 57 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:56 AM - Kitfox III Radiator (Ken Harrison) 2. 07:10 AM - Re: Snowboards for skis (Noel Loveys) 3. 07:11 AM - Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking (Ken Harrison) 4. 07:17 AM - Re: water overflow bottle height (Noel Loveys) 5. 07:31 AM - Re: Re: water overflow bottle height (Noel Loveys) 6. 07:32 AM - Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking (Dan Billingsley) 7. 07:33 AM - Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking (sbennett3) 8. 08:06 AM - Re: water overflow bottle height (jridgway) 9. 08:14 AM - Re: Snowboards for skis (akflyer) 10. 08:21 AM - Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking (Marco Menezes) 11. 08:36 AM - Re: water overflow into expansion tank (Paul Franz - Merlin GT) 12. 08:36 AM - Need Fiberglass Seats (Paul Morel) 13. 08:49 AM - Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking (Rick) 14. 08:49 AM - Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking (Noel Loveys) 15. 08:55 AM - seat pans cracking- kitfox model III (William Malpass) 16. 08:59 AM - Re: Re: water overflow bottle height (Noel Loveys) 17. 09:06 AM - Re: Re: Snowboards for skis (Noel Loveys) 18. 09:51 AM - Re: Kitfox-List Digest: 39 Msgs - 12/21/08 (Ed Gray) 19. 10:11 AM - Re: Re: Slipping with Flaps (Guy Buchanan) 20. 10:17 AM - Re: Snowboards for skis (patrick reilly) 21. 10:39 AM - Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking (Lynn Matteson) 22. 10:40 AM - Re: Need Fiberglass Seats (Guy Buchanan) 23. 10:40 AM - Re: [!! SPAM] seat pans cracking- kitfox model III (Guy Buchanan) 24. 10:40 AM - Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Kitfox-List Digest: 39 Msgs - 12/21/08 (Guy Buchanan) 25. 10:48 AM - Re: Snowboards for skis (Lynn Matteson) 26. 11:02 AM - Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking (Lowell Fitt) 27. 11:19 AM - Re: Re: Slipping with Flaps (Randy Daughenbaugh) 28. 11:43 AM - Re: Slipping with Flaps - C172 (Joel Mapes) 29. 12:13 PM - Re: Need Fiberglass Seats (jdmcbean) 30. 12:17 PM - Re: Need Fiberglass Seats (Paul Morel) 31. 12:18 PM - Re: skis (fox5flyer) 32. 12:32 PM - Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking (Michael Gibbs) 33. 01:09 PM - Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking (Lynn Matteson) 34. 01:16 PM - Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking (Lynn Matteson) 35. 01:31 PM - Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking (Weiss Richard) 36. 01:35 PM - Re: skis (Lynn Matteson) 37. 01:44 PM - [!! SPAM] Re: Kitfox-List Digest: 39 Msgs - 12/21/08 (akflyer) 38. 01:47 PM - Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking (Lynn Matteson) 39. 01:52 PM - Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Kitfox-List Digest: 39 Msgs - 12/21/08 (Lynn Matteson) 40. 01:57 PM - Re: Slipping with Flaps (akflyer) 41. 03:27 PM - Everybody ground loops? (Paul Folbrecht) 42. 03:31 PM - Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking (Tom Jones) 43. 03:46 PM - Re: Everybody ground loops? (Tom Jones) 44. 04:02 PM - Re: Everybody ground loops? (Lynn Matteson) 45. 05:13 PM - Ground loops? (Dee Young) 46. 05:23 PM - Re: Everybody ground loops? (Paul Folbrecht) 47. 06:53 PM - Re: Everybody ground loops? (Guy Buchanan) 48. 07:37 PM - Re: Everybody ground loops? (floran higgins) 49. 07:37 PM - test (Larry Huntley) 50. 07:59 PM - Re: Everybody ground loops? (akflyer) 51. 08:06 PM - Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking (patrick reilly) 52. 08:25 PM - Re: Everybody ground loops? (AKFLYERBOB) 53. 09:24 PM - Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking (Lowell Fitt) 54. 09:36 PM - Re: Everybody ground loops? (wingnut) 55. 09:37 PM - Re: Everybody ground loops? (akflyer) 56. 10:22 PM - MEK question (jlfernan) 57. 10:59 PM - Re: Everybody ground loops? (Michel Verheughe) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:56:43 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Radiator From: Ken Harrison First off, thank you to all who sent suggestions for my transponder noise problem. I am working my way through the suggestions and will let you know what happens. I am right in the middle of my annual condition inspection and have decided it=B9s time for a new radiator. I have found a couple sources on the web but thought I might ask if anyone has a newish/good condition radiator lying around that will fit on my Kitfox III. Thanks for the help! Ken ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:10:38 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis KrazyKarpet is a piece of plastic around two feet wide by three and a half feet long that kids use to go sliding... Problem is there is no control once a kid starts to slide. Many end up with back problems from hitting bumps on the ground or serious injury from hitting large rocks or trees. Even a small light kid can gain some pretty dangerous speeds on the things even on gentle slopes. They are not allowed at all anywhere including the parking lot on a ski hill. That's why the hospitals have so many of them. Noel From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Crowder Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 9:26 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis This sounds like what I purchased a few years ago to put under heavy objects so as to allow one person to take hold of a lead rope and easily move very heavy object around on carpet. I believe they came from a carpet layer's supply house. They were unbelievable for that. Jim Crowder From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 1:57 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis Before you start doing anything with aluminium, especially in direct contact with snow, consider the fact that bare aluminium will ice up like nothing you can imagine... even under the coldest driest conditions. The very best thing to have in contact with the snow is Teflon plastic... My father built several komitiks (sleighs) to pull behind his snowmobile. The best thing he found for running surfaces was Krazy Karpet. Most hospitals have thousands of them turned in by the parents of injured children for free. They are easy to attach using strips of Teflon plastic and screws and they are easy to replace.... and there is no way you will ever get them to ice up! KrazyKarpet comes in different colours so if you want you can colour code the year you last recovered the base of your skis. Noel From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of patrick reilly Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 2:35 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis Randy, Deke, And Lynn, How about attaching "spray rails" to the edges of the board made out of 1/8" or so aluminum. And if you don't cut out the board completely behind the wheel, attach a bent up piece behind the wheel to eliminate the cheese cutter effect. Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford, IL > From: lynnmatt@jps.net > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis > Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 12:48:53 -0500 > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > What you're proposing, Randy, is basically how the Wipaire skis are > designed. I have a picture of them, and it looks like the edges are > turned up slightly. I also believe that's how Leonard made the > bottoms that he attached to his skis. > I'm going to attach side "rails" onto my new ski bottoms, such that > they bend up at the edges, and act like spray rails on a boat. > > Lynn Matteson > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs > Sensenich 62x46 > flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition > system; > also building a new pair of snow skis > > > > > On Dec 21, 2008, at 12:26 PM, Randy Daughenbaugh wrote: > > > Deke, > > > > I have been toying with that idea for a year or so. Even gone to a > > few used Ski sales looking for a pair of matching boards. > > > > > > > > I have decided that I want to build wheel penetration skis with the > > entire board cut out behind the wheel. This would make them easy > > to put on and I think would still provide a lot of floatation > > behind the axel. > > > > > > > > The one thing I don't like with this approach is the good boards > > have really sharp edges on the sides. Better for snow boarding, > > but I think slightly turned up edges may be desirable for ktifox skis. > > > > > > > > Randy > > > > > > > >= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, &g=================== > > > http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:11:52 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking From: Ken Harrison What is the best way to keep the fiberglass seat from cracking? Mine has very small cracks that are right at the outside edges both sides, basically half way up the back. It makes a crackling sound every time I get in. I have re-enforced the seat with some seat belt material underneath but was wondering if anyone has a better solution. I am going to repair the fiberglass and thought I=B9d check to see if anyone has dealt with this problem. I don=B9t want to make the fiberglass repair an d then just have it crack again in the same place. I=B9ve read about the seats failing and jamming the controls...always in the back of my mind. Thanks, Ken ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:17:14 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: water overflow bottle height Being the bottle should be open at the top to ambient pressure it should be a few inches below the rad cap. The really important item is the hose going to the overflow bottle should come from the low pressure side of the cap. When I got my plane first the builder somehow or the other put the overflow via a "T" on the high pressure side of the cap... I noticed that before I even started the engine. No wonder the builder of the plane complained to me about having cooling problems with the engine. Noel From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Weiss Richard Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 12:11 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: water overflow bottle height Jack, Which engine are you using? Each model may be different. On my 912ULS, the 10 inch measurement you cite is accurate, but the formula you wrote is not for volume. The volume would be volume = r2 h. Where r is the radius of the hose and h is the length (height) of the hose. This may be air or fluid depending on your installation and how you fill the reservoir and overflow container. If the hose has air, it will eventually be released out the hole in the cap of the overflow bottle. I don't think there's a problem with that small amount of air anyway, since it can't back flow into the reservoir due to the pressure valve in the cap. When the engine heats up, the air in the hose will expand and some of it will bubble out the breather hole in the cap and be replaced with the fluid in the overflow container. If the pressure gets to great in the system, the cap valve releases and allows coolant to flow into the overflow container. Thus the air is purged out anyway. Just be sure you have sufficient coolant in the overflow container so air is not sucked into the system when it cools down. Hope this helps. Rick Weiss N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS SkyStar S/N 1 Port Orange, FL On Dec 21, 2008, at 6:34 PM, jridgway wrote: I understand from the ROTAX documentation that the water overflow bottle can be up to 10 inches below the radiator cap. Won't this allow the air (volume=10 inches x inner hose diameter) in the overflow line enter the engine before it actually brings up any water? Is this small amount of air OK? Does this air get purged out with water during the cooling recovery cycle? I am not using a separate expansion tank. Thanks..Jack Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220456#220456 = ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:31:39 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: water overflow bottle height The whole idea of that bottle is that you can run the cooling system without any air in the system at all. As the fluid warms up and expands it gets pushed through the pressure cap and then flows through the line to the overflow bottle... The overflow bottle should have around three times the volume as the greatest expansion of all the fluid in the pressurized system. As the fluid cools down, like after a flight, the contracting coolant will actually draw coolant from the bottle through the pressure cap, designed to keep a specific pressure in the system, to refill the high pressure side of the cooling system. For that reason the bottle should never be either empty or full. Most bottles have a range from 1/3 to 2/3 full as the operating range. The bottle should be open to ambient pressure at the top. Some systems as mentioned have the connecting tube on the bottom of the reservoir, others use a tube that extends through the cap to the bottom of the reservoir. My plane has a spray nine bottle with a straw like tube that extends to the bottom of the bottle. Air can easily enter the bottle around where the tube passes through the cap. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Lee Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 12:32 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: water overflow bottle height The hose comes off the bottom of the tank so it will only draw liquid. You should not have an air issue. An example would be when you take the cap off the coolant expansion tank air can get in and the fluid level is not always at the top. It has an air space at times if the level is down slightly. -------- Roger Lee Tucson, Az. Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated Rotax Service Center 520-574-1080 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220482#220482 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:32:38 AM PST US From: Dan Billingsley Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking Ken, If you are thinking about making repairs you could really strengthen critical areas if you used carbon fiber instead of fiberglass...just a thought. Dan B Mesa, AZ --- On Mon, 12/22/08, Ken Harrison wrote: > From: Ken Harrison > Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking > To: "Kitfox List" > Date: Monday, December 22, 2008, 8:11 AM > What is the best way to keep the fiberglass seat from > cracking? Mine has > very small cracks that are right at the outside edges both > sides, basically > half way up the back. It makes a crackling sound every > time I get in. I > have re-enforced the seat with some seat belt material > underneath but was > wondering if anyone has a better solution. > > I am going to repair the fiberglass and thought Id check > to see if anyone > has dealt with this problem. I dont want to make the > fiberglass repair and > then just have it crack again in the same place. > > Ive read about the seats failing and jamming the > controls...always in the > back of my mind. > > Thanks, > Ken ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:33:16 AM PST US From: sbennett3 Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan CrackingKen, I don't have suggestions to help you fix your seat issue, just a reminder that there are control rods running under that seat that if collapsed on will keep you from being able to control ailerons. I had that happen to me once. Maybe a new seat can be on your Christmas list. Personally, i'd replace it. Steve Bennett classic 4 912ul... Durham NC In a message dated 12/22/08 10:12:44 Eastern Standard Time, kenharrison@comporium.net writes: What is the best way to keep the fiberglass seat from cracking? Mine has very small cracks that are right at the outside edges both sides, basically half way up the back. It makes a crackling sound every time I get in. I have re-enforced the seat with some seat belt material underneath but was wondering if anyone has a better solution. I am going to repair the fiberglass and thought Id check to see if anyone has dealt with this problem. I dont want to make the fiberglass repair and then just have it crack again in the same place. Ive read about the seats failing and jamming the controls...always in the back of my mind. Thanks, Ken ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:06:46 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: water overflow bottle height From: "jridgway" Thanks for the feedback. I understand the basics. I was just wondering when the engine COOLs and draws the reserve water back up, it must also first draw the air in the line back in the engine. Does this 'little bid of air' get purged back out as the engine warms up during the next start up/running cycle? Can this little bit of air get trapped in the engine? New to ROTAX engines..This must happen with autos also..my truck reserve tanks is about 6 inches below my radiator cap also..thanks all.. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220528#220528 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:14:57 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Snowboards for skis From: "akflyer" I thought this was interesting. Found them on craigslist this morning. The wheel sits in a cradle and a strap over the top holds the skis on... would be very easy to use this set up on the snow boards. -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over. hander outer of humorless darwin awards Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220529#220529 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/callair_1250s_291.jpg ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:21:12 AM PST US From: Marco Menezes Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking Ken, There will always be varying opinion on such issues so here's mine, FW IW: You've apparently already addressed the safety issue by installing webb ing straps. These are, in reality, now supporting the weight of the seat pa n and it's occupants. If you've done this job properly (as I'm sure you hav e) so long as the webbing is intact, the seat pan will not fail.-So, my h umble advice would be to repair the cracks in the pan and carefully inspect pan,-webbing and its attachment points at each annual. - Marco Menezes N99KX Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch - --- On Mon, 12/22/08, sbennett3 wrote: From: sbennett3 Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking Ken, I don't have suggestions to help you fix your seat issue, just a remin der that there are control rods running under that seat that if collapsed o n will keep you from being able to control ailerons.- I had that happen t o me once. Maybe a new seat can be on your Christmas list.- Personally, i 'd replace it.- Steve Bennett- classic 4 912ul... Durham NC - - - In a message dated 12/22/08 10:12:44 Eastern Standard Time, kenharrison@com porium.net writes: #yiv123930800 .aolmailheader {font-size:8pt;color:black;font-famil y:Arial;} #yiv123930800 a.aolmailheader:link {color:blue;text-decoration:underline ;font-weight:normal;} #yiv123930800 a.aolmailheader:visited {color:magenta;text-decoration:underl ine;font-weight:normal;} #yiv123930800 a.aolmailheader:active {color:blue;text-decoration:underline ;font-weight:normal;} #yiv123930800 a.aolmailheader:hover {color:blue;text-decoration:underline ;font-weight:normal;} What is the best way to keep the fiberglass seat from cracking? -Mine has very small cracks that are right at the outside edges both sides, basicall y half way up the back. -It makes a crackling sound every time I get in. -I have re-enforced the seat with some seat belt material underneath but was wondering if anyone has a better solution. - I am going to repair the fiberglass and thought I=92d check to see if anyon e has dealt with this problem. -I don=92t want to make the fiberglass rep air and then just have it crack again in the same place. - I=92ve read about the seats failing and jamming the controls...always in th e back of my mind. Thanks, Ken - Listen to 350+ music, sports, & news radio stations ' including songs for the holidays ' FREE while you browse. Start Listening Now! =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:36:06 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: water overflow into expansion tank From: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT" On Mon, December 22, 2008 8:05 am, jridgway wrote: > > I was just wondering when the engine COOLs and draws the reserve water back up, it > must also first draw the air in the line back in the engine. As long as the tube enters the reservoir below the water line, all the air will be purged after a couple of warm up - cool down cycles. The expansion of the coolant in the engine is enough to purge the air in the vent line. Some of the air is entrained in the hot fluid and that air comes out of solution in the overflow tank. That's why it can take a couple of cycles of warm up and cool down to get all of the air out. This is important to protect the coolant from oxidation. The oxidation of ethylene glycol produces acidic products. These effects are buffered by the corrosion inhibitor in the anti-freeze. If there is no air interface to the hot fluid, the life expectancy of the anti-freeze will be longer. The oxidation is temperature dependent and doesn't happen much in the expansion tank since that fluid is quite cool compared to the temperatures within the engine. -- Paul A. Franz Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP Bellevue WA 425.241.1618 Cell ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:36:06 AM PST US From: "Paul Morel" Subject: Kitfox-List: Need Fiberglass Seats I'm in a real fix here. I'm in the final stage of completing my Model IV Speedster and my upholstery guy took my fiberglass seat pan and glare shield in order to finish off my interior. I've lost total contact with him. Either he skipped town or something very bad has happened to him. At this point, I really don't expect to see my things again. If anyone out in Kitfox land has an interior, seat pan or glareshield from a parted out kitfox or just spare parts they are willing to sell, please contact me. I haven't contacted Kitfox yet to see if they have any of these parts that would allow me to finish my kit. I'll give them a call sometime after the holidays if I come up empty handed from the matronics list. Thanks Paul Morel Model IV Speedster Locust Grove, GA ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:49:50 AM PST US From: "Rick" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking Even before any cracks developed I too reinforced the pans with carbon fiber. Good idea, Rick -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken Harrison Sent: 2008-12-22 07:11 Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking What is the best way to keep the fiberglass seat from cracking? Mine has very small cracks that are right at the outside edges both sides, basically half way up the back. It makes a crackling sound every time I get in. I have re-enforced the seat with some seat belt material underneath but was wondering if anyone has a better solution. I am going to repair the fiberglass and thought I'd check to see if anyone has dealt with this problem. I don't want to make the fiberglass repair and then just have it crack again in the same place. I've read about the seats failing and jamming the controls...always in the back of my mind. Thanks, Ken ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:49:54 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking To get the strength to weight you should have there the only way is to vacuum bag the repair and carefully weigh the amount of resin you put into the cloth. For something that needs to be strong like a seat I think I'd even go with pre-preg cloth with the nap running 45Deg on each layer. Finding someone with a autoclave or a hotshot will be the major problem. Noel From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken Harrison Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 11:41 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking What is the best way to keep the fiberglass seat from cracking? Mine has very small cracks that are right at the outside edges both sides, basically half way up the back. It makes a crackling sound every time I get in. I have re-enforced the seat with some seat belt material underneath but was wondering if anyone has a better solution. I am going to repair the fiberglass and thought I'd check to see if anyone has dealt with this problem. I don't want to make the fiberglass repair and then just have it crack again in the same place. I've read about the seats failing and jamming the controls...always in the back of my mind. Thanks, Ken ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:55:04 AM PST US From: William Malpass Subject: Kitfox-List: seat pans cracking- kitfox model III I found it was easier and cheaper to remove the seat,- grind/roughen the back where the fiberglass is, and re-apply several thick layers of fibergla ss creating a broad patch in the effected area.- Then to double re-inforc e the area I put an array of rivits at the edges where the crackes are.- I had about 6 areas of long cracks that need repair.- Mine has held up fi ne.- Dont make fiberglass repairs on the top side as this is the plastic (ABS, I think) side.- The seat has been manufactured like a fiberglass tu b. - I tend to take a cheaper way out, and this method seems to work. Besides I bet the seat pan isn't cheap. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:59:46 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: water overflow bottle height The end of the tiber going to the overflow bottle should be under the level of the coolant in the bottle. The first time the engine is started all the gas bubbles are pushed through the tube and bubble out into the reservoir.. that way when the engine cools there is no bubbles to travel back into the high pressure side of the cap. This is another reason to have the reservoir below the cap... when you fill the rad a bit of overflow will drain into the reservoir bringing it to the proper cold level. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jridgway Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 12:36 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: water overflow bottle height Thanks for the feedback. I understand the basics. I was just wondering when the engine COOLs and draws the reserve water back up, it must also first draw the air in the line back in the engine. Does this 'little bid of air' get purged back out as the engine warms up during the next start up/running cycle? Can this little bit of air get trapped in the engine? New to ROTAX engines..This must happen with autos also..my truck reserve tanks is about 6 inches below my radiator cap also..thanks all.. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220528#220528 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:06:01 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Snowboards for skis Just be sure you don't lose one ski in flight! :-) Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of akflyer Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 12:44 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Snowboards for skis I thought this was interesting. Found them on craigslist this morning. The wheel sits in a cradle and a strap over the top holds the skis on... would be very easy to use this set up on the snow boards. -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over. hander outer of humorless darwin awards Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220529#220529 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/callair_1250s_291.jpg ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:51:36 AM PST US From: "Ed Gray" Subject: Kitfox-List: RE: Kitfox-List Digest: 39 Msgs - 12/21/08 My 582-90 does not have a thermostat. Can one simply be added to the intake or is a new intake housing needed? I am not clear on the implications of a thermostat to prevent cold seizure. Seems that with no thermostat, a prolonged idling descent would allow constant circulation rather than a buildup of cool water in the radiator, thus no cold seizure risk. Am I thinking logically? And, will an occasional engine runup while descending prevent seizure? Ed Gray K2-582 building do not archive Dallas -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kitfox-List Digest Server Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 1:59 AM Subject: Kitfox-List Digest: 39 Msgs - 12/21/08 * ================================================= Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive ================================================= Today's complete Kitfox-List Digest can also be found in either of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version of the Kitfox-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 08-12-21&Archive=Kitfox Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 2008-12-21&Archive=Kitfox =============================================== EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive =============================================== ---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 12/21/08: 39 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:41 AM - Re: Re: CHT's (Lynn Matteson) 2. 03:45 AM - Re: skis (Lynn Matteson) 3. 04:59 AM - Snowmobile Skis (fox5flyer) 4. 05:03 AM - Snowmobile Skis (fox5flyer) 5. 05:13 AM - Snowmobile Skis (fox5flyer) 6. 05:21 AM - Snowboards for skis (fox5flyer) 7. 06:04 AM - Re: Snowmobile Skis (Lynn Matteson) 8. 06:11 AM - Re: Snowmobile Skis (Lynn Matteson) 9. 07:22 AM - Re: Re: Slipping with Flaps (Guy Buchanan) 10. 07:58 AM - Re: Snowmobile Skis (akflyer) 11. 09:02 AM - Re: Snowboards for skis (patrick reilly) 12. 09:28 AM - Re: Snowboards for skis (Randy Daughenbaugh) 13. 09:42 AM - Re: Snowmobile Skis (patrick reilly) 14. 09:42 AM - Re: skis (Lynn Matteson) 15. 09:48 AM - Re: Snowboards for skis (Lynn Matteson) 16. 10:05 AM - Re: Snowboards for skis (patrick reilly) 17. 10:23 AM - Re: skis (akflyer) 18. 10:23 AM - Re: skis (patrick reilly) 19. 10:28 AM - Re: Snowboards for skis (akflyer) 20. 10:30 AM - Snowmobile Skis (fox5flyer) 21. 10:35 AM - Re: Snowboards for skis (fox5flyer) 22. 11:03 AM - Snowmobile Ski Skin photos (fox5flyer) 23. 11:27 AM - Re: Slipping with FlapsRe: Slipping with Flaps (Joel Mapes) 24. 11:27 AM - Re: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic (Noel Loveys) 25. 12:44 PM - Re: Slipping with Flaps - C172 (Paul Franz - Merlin GT) 26. 12:58 PM - Re: Snowboards for skis (Noel Loveys) 27. 01:22 PM - Re: Snowboards for skis (Lynn Matteson) 28. 01:25 PM - Re: Re: CHT's (gary.algate@sandvik.com) 29. 01:45 PM - Re: skis (Lynn Matteson) 30. 01:56 PM - Re: Re: skis (Lynn Matteson) 31. 02:03 PM - Re: Snowmobile Ski Skin photos (Lynn Matteson) 32. 03:02 PM - Re: skis (Lynn Matteson) 33. 03:14 PM - Re: Snowmobile Ski Skin photos (Ron Liebmann) 34. 03:36 PM - water overflow bottle height (jridgway) 35. 03:43 PM - Re: Re: Slipping with Flaps (Clint Bazzill) 36. 04:58 PM - Re: Snowboards for skis (Jim Crowder) 37. 07:42 PM - Re: water overflow bottle height (Weiss Richard) 38. 08:02 PM - Re: water overflow bottle height (Roger Lee) 39. 08:47 PM - Re: water overflow bottle height (James Shumaker) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:41:21 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: CHT's In order to find where the Jabiru owner is placing his probe, you only have to hide and watch and listen as he/she installs them....if installing takes a few seconds and the shop is relatively quiet, they are doing as you did, Gary, installing the probe onto the new plug and screwing down so that the probe is against the head. If, however, the job takes 10 minutes per plug and the air is foul with cussing, the recalling of the plug's questionable ancestry, and perhaps a mention of some prior incestuous fornication on the part of the plug, then he/she is installing them the way the factory suggests...removing the (%$#@*&?+*# ) washer, placing the probe onto the plug, then replacing the (%$#@*&?+*# ) washer, and installing the plug. It's a WHOLE lot easier to drill and tap the heads once...and this is a simple job with a hand held drill...cut the spark plug-sized terminal off, replace with a #8 or #10 size terminal, and mount with a socket head cap screw...DONE! You never have to touch them again. You just have to get used to seeing a much higher reading on your CHT readout...mine were about 75 higher, and probably a lot more accurate than the ones sticking up in the "breeze". I can't recall just where I saw the specifics of installing the spark plug probes as per the factory, but they definitely tell you to take the washer off....(%$#@*&?+*# ) them! Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system; also building a new pair of snow skis On Dec 20, 2008, at 11:48 PM, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote: > > Hi Lynn > > You are right with your assumption. I was talking with a couple of > guys with Jab engines who told me the probe should be sandwiched > between the base of the plug (Hex section) and the washer. > > I had always sandwiched mine between the washer and the head so > that it was reading directly from the head itself. > > Anyway, as you found out a few mm can make a huge difference. > > I just went thru my install manual to find out the right position > as I assume the temps Jab quote are based on a very specific > location. I haven't found it yet. > > Gary > > Gary Algate > SMC, Exploration > Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655 > > > This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the > addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of > this message by persons or entities other than the intended > recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, > kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the > message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for > any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may > arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. > This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we > have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe > and happy Christmas". > > > Lynn Matteson > Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > 21/12/2008 02:36 AM > Please respond to > kitfox-list@matronics.com > > To > kitfox-list@matronics.com > cc > Subject > Re: Kitfox-List: Re: CHT's > > > You're right, Jim...mine did read higher when I screwed them right > down onto the head...by about 75. This is because when the > thermocouple is sticking up into the air...(remember that the point > where the reading is taken is right where the iron wire and the > constantan wire come together...usually where the crimp on the spark > plug terminal holds the wires together)...the reading is of the crimp > of the terminal, influenced by the air passing by. If the terminal > crimp is 3/8" from the area that sits under the spark plug, there is > a loss of heat right there. Bend the terminal up into the air to > allow it to clear the fins, and you've moved the "reading spot" > further away from the head and into the airstream, which further > cools the reading. When Gary positioned his terminal above the spark > plug washer...if I'm reading his post correctly...he was moving the > terminal/probe away from the head, and the washer then became an > insulator of sorts...at least as much as a copper washer can be > called an insulator. Granted, the terminal now contacts the spark > plug, but think of where most of the metal in a spark plug > resides...away from the head and in the airstream. This theory is all > based on how I interpret Gary's explanation of where he moved the > probes/terminals. If this isn't where he positioned his terminals/ > probes, I'll go sit in the corner with a pointy hat on my head. > > When this topic was first visited, and I followed the Australian > gent's lead and attached my probes right on the heads, I also > followed someone else's suggestion and took a CHT spark plug terminal/ > probe and installed it under my #1 cylinder to compare readings of > the new placement and the old "between the plug and the plug washer" > factory-suggested location, and indeed there was about a 75 > difference between the two, the "flat on the head, small electrical > terminal" location being the hotter of the two. You might temporarily > "borrow" a CHT probe from one of the other cylinders and then you'll > be comparing readings taken from just the one cylinder instead of > "identical" cylinders. Once you're satisfied, just swap it back. > > Can you fix him up with a hand-held radio for the time being? > > Lynn Matteson > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs > Sensenich 62x46 > flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition > system; > also building a new pair of snow skis > > > On Dec 20, 2008, at 12:00 AM, Jim Crowder wrote: > > > Gary and Lynn, > > > > As I remember Lynns temp actually read higher with his new > > placement. Am I right about that? I tapped the small holes > > between my plugs and plan to fasten my sensors there via machine > > screws as Lynn did. I plan to leave one sensor as a standard plug > > ring and mount if conventionally. I will look for differences and > > even place it on an identical cylinder and then compare that way. > > > > > > > > My metal hangar is unheated and it has been soooo cooollldddd > > here. A week ago it got to nearly 20 below zero. My fingers get > > so cold that when I drop a washer or nut, I have great trouble > > picking it up off of the concrete floor. Most days I still get > > four hours or so of work in, but Im not too productive. My son > > has now flown his RV8 four times. He has it in my hangar. He is > > having radio problems. It is the only real problem he is having. > > It is very noisy and cuts out on transmissions at times. He was > > going up for a second time today and it quit transmitting > > completely. He cut his gain settings way back from what the > > factory had them at and that helped with the noise. We now suspect > > he may have two problems with it. Before it always worked on the > > ground. Now it doesnt transmit at all. It receives beautifully. > > The problem is he doesnt want to work on the radio, he wants to > fly. > > > > > > > > Jim Crowder > > > > > > > > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox- > > list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gary.algate@sandvik.com > > Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 5:13 PM > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: CHT's > > > > > > > > > > Lynn FYI > > > > yesterday I thought, for interest sake, that I'd fit my CHT probes > > above the spark plug washer to see if I got similar results as you. > > (Previously I just had mine sandwiched below the plug washer and > > the head. > > > > My Temps dropped by about 30 deg F! > > > > Previously my cruise CHT's were around 280-290 and now they're > > around 260. > > > > Regards and Merry Christmas > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > Gary Algate > > SMC, Exploration > > Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655 > > > > > > This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the > > addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of > > this message by persons or entities other than the intended > > recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, > > kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the > > message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for > > any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may > > arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. > > This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we > > have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe > > and happy Christmas". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lynn Matteson > > > > Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > > 20/12/2008 09:12 AM > > Please respond to > > kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > > To > > > > kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > > cc > > > > Subject > > > > Kitfox-List: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We (in lower, Lower Michigan) got about 5-11" of new snow today, > > (added to the 3-4" last week) but the damn stuff didn't quit until > > flying hours...for me....were over for the day. Plus, the driveway > > into the hangar was too deep to negotiate, and the plow guy was not > > available. Tomorrow will/should be better for getting my ski- > equipped > > Kitfox out and enjoy the snow-flying. If this stuff would just come > > 2-3" at a time, I could handle the driveway and parking (the car) > > problems, but when it comes in "wholesale" amounts, it's just too > > much...damn! > > Oh well, I've got a fresh bottle of Baileys Irish Cream to help me > > through the night, plenty of wood brought inside to feed the fire, > > and plenty of projects (vacuum bagging and TIG-welding practicing to > > be done for the next pair of skis) to keep me busy. And you guys > have > > got your Kitfox-building projects, so all is well. :) > > > > Lynn Matteson > > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger > > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs > > Sensenich 62x46 > > flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition > > system; > > also building a new pair of snow skis > > > > > > > > > > > > ========== > > -- > > Gifts!) > > on > > about > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > ========== > > Forum - > > FAQ, > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List > > ========== > > WEB FORUMS - > > ========== > > > > > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/ > > Navigator?Kitfox-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com > > =================================== _- > > =================================== _- > > ================================= > > > ========================================================== ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:45:35 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: skis Here's a shot of Wipaire's Air Glide ski that I saw at Oshkosh this year. I'm following the basic shape of these, in designing my non- repositionable skis. The lower picture is of Trickair ski. I though that I would pattern mine with the wider front area, and with no rear ski area directly behind the wheel...sort of like a cross between the two types shown....like the Wipaire in footprint, but the other in being a fiberglass-covered tubing frame, like I have built before. If these pics don't come out in the order that I've placed then, the Wipaire has its name on it, the Trickair is yellow, and the other two pics are my skis...the one shot on snow is at Oshkosh. You can see how far my present skis ride above the snow, creating lots of drag. The next set will be MUCH lower to the ground. From the skis that I've seen, the measurements that I've taken, and calculations that I've made, 1 lb/sq. inch seems about right. I'm no engineer, and I pretty much just "eyeball it" when it comes to designing/copying something, but then again, I don't try to sell it either. : ) My present skis have about 480 sq. in of area, with the wheel hole area removed from the overall size. I plan on shooting for 660 sq. in, according to a "note to self" dated 11-30-08, so I must have some figures somewhere in all my notes that led me to that conclusion. : ) I measured my CFI's 1500 Federal skis, and they came out to 764 sq. inches for the two skis (64" x 6") That comes out to about 2 lbs/sq. in. of loading. I've come to the conclusion that about 15" for the front width, and 6" for the part that parallels the wheel will be what I'm shooting for. In a 60" long ski this will give me about 630 sq. in. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it...for now. Oh, one more thing, Paul, I'm gonna go with the UHMW for the initial test of the framework/pedestal-mounting system, then work on the vacuum bagging/plywood bending, fiberglass-covering part later. On Dec 21, 2008, at 1:22 AM, Paul Franz - Merlin GT wrote: (edited) > Wouldn't adding length and flexibility improve flotation, reduce > friction and greatly > improve maneuverability? > > I know Lynn is building new skis and using vacuum bagging to build > up the bases. If it > were designed as skis for powder, I'd think you'd want a length to > width ratio of > about 25 with slightly wider front tips and a loading of about 1.0 > lbs/in=B2. So that > would mean for a 1200 lb aircraft with two skis, each ski would be > designed for 600 lb > load and would have 600 in=B2. Given a length to width ratio of 25 > that would be mean > each ski would be 4.9" wide and 120" long and be flexible enough so > that the tips > could flex up going over ruts and ridges with a loading center > about 50" from the rear > tip of the ski. > > Have skis of such dimensions been tried? > > Paul A. Franz > Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT > Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP > Bellevue WA ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:59:19 AM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Kitfox-List: Snowmobile Skis Actually, they worked fine, even in some fairly deep snow. The airplane only weighed about 520 pounds, roughly the same as many typical snowmobiles. The total weight of the skis was actually quite a bit less than the tires and wheels. I'll see if I can dig up some photos. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert From: patrick reilly To: kitfox matronics Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 10:34 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic Tom, That's not funny. Deke Morrisse in MI built his out of the plastic skins from Artic Cat used on their snow machines. I bought a set of skins and will have them on mine next year. They aren't real big so you need packed snow I would imagine. How about that Deke? Those snow machine skies you designed won't work in deep snow, or will they? Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford, IL > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic > From: nahsikhs@elltel.net > Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 15:39:50 -0800 > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > Lynn, > At least you have skis so some fun to look foreword to. We have plenty of snow in Central washing and more on the way. I wonder if I can take the skis off my snowmobile and put them on my kitfox. > > Merry Christmas to all, card attached. > > -------- > Tom Jones > Classic IV > 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp > Ellensburg, WA > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220208#220208 > > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/snow_trees_card_202.jpg > > > > &=================== > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:03:31 AM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Kitfox-List: Snowmobile Skis Note, topic change. The skins were 1/4 thick by 8" wide by about 4' long and were intended for powder skis. You can get them on ebay for less than $30 for a set. With 10" of new snow, unless I was in dire straits to go somewhere, I think my airplane would just stay in the hangar. I had no problem in six to eight inches of snow, but drew the line there. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 11:07 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic > > Deke and Pat- > > How wide and long are these "skins"? What is the area of each ski (length > in inches, multiplied by the width in inches)? Like Leonard Perry pointed > out the other day, you need all the area you can get in soft powder snow > (or words to that effect). > Maybe skis could be added to that list of useless things in aviation: > Fuel left back at the hangar.....altitude above you....runway behind > you.....(can't think of the others)...and wider skis left on the drawing > table. > > I had a heck of a time getting out of 10" of snow today, and earlier this > year from about 9" of snow. Granted, my skis are wheel- penetration skis, > and I have re-thought the design, but it seems to make sense to have all > the area you can get...I think. > > Lynn Matteson > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs > Sensenich 62x46 > flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition > system; > also building a new pair of snow skis > > > On Dec 20, 2008, at 10:34 PM, patrick reilly wrote: > >> Tom, That's not funny. Deke Morrisse in MI built his out of the plastic >> skins from Artic Cat used on their snow machines. I bought a set of >> skins and will have them on mine next year. They aren't real big so you >> need packed snow I would imagine. How about that Deke? Those snow >> machine skies you designed won't work in deep snow, or will they? >> >> Pat Reilly >> Mod 3 582 Rebuild >> Rockford, IL >> >> > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic >> > From: nahsikhs@elltel.net >> > Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 15:39:50 -0800 >> > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >> > >> > >> > Lynn, >> > At least you have skis so some fun to look foreword to. We have >> plenty of snow in Central washing and more on the way. I wonder if I can >> take the skis off my snowmobile and put them on my kitfox. >> > >> > Merry Christmas to all, card attached. >> > >> > -------- >> > Tom Jones >> > Classic IV >> > 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp >> > Ellensburg, WA >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Read this topic online here: >> > >> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220208#220208 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Attachments: >> > >> > http://forums.matronics.com//files/snow_trees_card_202.jpg >> > >> > >> > >> > >> &=================== >> > >> > >> > >> >> ============================================================ _- >> ============================================================ _- >> ========================================================== > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:13:09 AM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Kitfox-List: Snowmobile Skis That's quite an absolute statement! No, I wouldn't have tried them in 12" snow, but there are a lot of different types of snow between that and ice. At one time there were people who said "If man were meant to fly, he'd have wings". Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert ----- Original Message ----- From: "akflyer" Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 11:13 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic > > There is NO WAY the skis from a sled, unless it was from an old twin track > alpine (and that would be marginal), will hold the KF up on anything but > very hard packed snow or ice. They wont even hold up my sled in powder. > If you try landing in 12" of powder you are going straight to he bottom. > > -------- > DO NOT ARCHIVE > Leonard Perry > Soldotna AK > Avid "C" / Mk IV > 582 IVO IFA > Full Lotus 1260 > As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over. > > hander outer of humorless darwin awards > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220364#220364 > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:21:11 AM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis Something I've mulled over to build for my S5 are skis built on a platform of snowboard skis. If you take a look at them, they're light, very strong, a lot of surface area, already have the curves built into them, and can be purchased used for a reasonable price. All they would need is a backbone for mounting on the axle, grab handles, and the hardware. I'm still looking around for a matching pair to tinker with. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:13 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowmobile Skis We've got about 10" right now, as of yesterday when I flew, and I'd draw a dotted line at about that height, maybe making it a solid line at 12" or more. I hope the new snow sticks around until I get new skis built, or I'll have to travel much further to test them. : ) Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system; also building a new pair of snow skis do not archive On Dec 21, 2008, at 8:03 AM, fox5flyer wrote: > > > Note, topic change. The skins were 1/4 thick by 8" wide by about > 4' long and were intended for powder skis. You can get them on > ebay for less than $30 for a set. With 10" of new snow, unless I > was in dire straits to go somewhere, I think my airplane would just > stay in the hangar. I had no problem in six to eight inches of > snow, but drew the line there. > Deke Morisse ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:11:39 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowmobile Skis This looks like a perfect time to throw in this that I found during my Google search for "airplane skis" : ********************* The National Research Council of Canada (NRC) report MM-225, Aircraft Ski Research in Canada, discusses the comprehensive research programme aimed at the development of improved skis for aircraft and provides information about the use of skis. The following paragraph paraphrases relevant portions of the publication: Early in the tests, it was found that sliding resistance and adhesion were far more dependent upon snow conditions than on the design of the ski. Further, the skiing quality of the snow changed continually and it was not unusual to observe marked changes taking place in less than an hour. The publication notes that there are times when the sliding resistance of aircraft skis is so great that it is impossible to reach flying speed. It was found that the sliding resistance of a ski could be divided into (a) the resistance component due to compacting the snow while forming the ski track, analogous to form drag in aerodynamics, and (b) the resistance component due to friction. In the case of dry snow, the ski resistance is considered to be made up of (a) solid friction, most of which occurs near the toe of the ski, (b) viscous drag due to shearing in the very thin film of water between the ski and the areas of contact, and (c) drag due to surface tension forces acting at the perimeters of the water drops in contact with the ski bottom. In very wet snow, the entire bottom of the ski is wet and most of the resistance is due to viscous drag, which varies as the square of the speed. All three components of ski friction -- solid friction, viscous drag, and surface tension drag -- increase with an increase in contact between the ski and snow and are therefore greater for soft snow than for hard snow. ******************** Sorry I can't credit who wrote it, or where I found it, as I was just searching and grabbing whatever seemed to be of interest to me. Perhaps if I knew where to find the NRC report MM-225..... I think this makes it sound like any ski is the right ski of the conditions for it are right, or very wrong if the conditions are wrong. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system; also building a new pair of snow skis On Dec 21, 2008, at 8:12 AM, fox5flyer wrote: > > > That's quite an absolute statement! No, I wouldn't have tried them > in 12" snow, but there are a lot of different types of snow between > that and ice. At one time there were people who said "If man were > meant to fly, he'd have wings". > Deke Morisse > Mikado Michigan > S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT > "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but > progress." > - Joseph Joubert > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "akflyer" > To: > Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 11:13 PM > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic > > >> >> There is NO WAY the skis from a sled, unless it was from an old >> twin track alpine (and that would be marginal), will hold the KF >> up on anything but very hard packed snow or ice. They wont even >> hold up my sled in powder. If you try landing in 12" of powder you >> are going straight to he bottom. >> >> -------- >> DO NOT ARCHIVE >> Leonard Perry ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:22:21 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Slipping with Flaps At 11:26 PM 12/20/2008, you wrote: >Seemed like a good alternative to lots of spiraling where you could >get too slow and spin if you weren't careful. Anyone else ever do this? Yeah, but it's really uncomfortable holding the doors open with your feet in a Kitfox. ;-) Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade 100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:58:01 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Snowmobile Skis From: "akflyer" I can't go into theory on why one works and why one doesn't (if you get an engineer involved you just end up with a SWAG) All my knowledge is based on real life experience, in many different planes, with many different ski manufactures and designs. I can say, without hesitation, that I will take a larger ski any day of the week over a smaller ski, for deep snow. On ice, or hard pack it does not matter, you could get away with tiny skis, but you veer off just a tad and hit the powder and you are gonna have lots of time to think about building bigger skis as you strap on your snow shoes and spend half a day packing down a runway to get yourself back outa some remote area you dropped into and were not equipped to deal with. A Buddy put his PA12 on its back and we had to form a rescue party to go get him and the plane. One PA12 was on Anderson board skis (plywood skis with Teflon bottoms that are quite large), one was on airglass 2000's (nice fiberglass ski but smaller than the Anderson's) and a 180 on little bitty federal skis. Snow was only about 3' deep and the board skis did AWESOME, the Airglass performed well but not quite as good, and the 180 was a major PITA. I spend half the time pushing and pulling on the tail of the 180 trying to get him turned around at the end of the strip... then he could not build flying speed to get off so we ran the 12 up and down to try and pack it. Didnt work because of the large surface area it just stayed on top and did not really compress the snow. At the end of the day we ended packing the runway on snowshoes. As far as snowmobile ski's or "ski skins" The same problem... on a snowmachine, in deep powder the skis support nothing as they are in the air. The thing rides on the track and belly pan when you stop. The skis are just for turning. I have tried wide parabolic skis (lotsa $) and they still dont help too much on a snowmachine. By your admittance that you would not take them into 12" of snow pretty much backs up what I said. I know these are experimental, but I would hate for someone to go wad up a perfectly good plane just because they thought the snowmachine skis would work... Check out supercub.org The hot ticket for skis are a set of airglass that you put on new bottoms 2" wider than the ski all the way around, why? because the increased flotation is worth alot more than a little bit of drag. Friction on top of the snow is a whole lot less than having the ski buried , the prop hitting snow, and the gear legs dragging through the snow. -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over. hander outer of humorless darwin awards Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220395#220395 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:02:05 AM PST US From: patrick reilly Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis Deke=2C I like the snowboard idea. I like it alot. do not archive Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford=2C IL From: fox5flyer@idealwifi.netTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: Kitfox-L ist: Snowboards for skisDate: Sun=2C 21 Dec 2008 08:20:51 -0500 Something I've mulled over to build for my S5 are skis built on a platform of snowboard skis. If you take a look at them=2C they're light=2C very str ong=2C a lot of surface area=2C already have the curves built into them=2C and can be purchased used for a reasonable price. All they would need is a backbone for mounting on the axle=2C grab handles=2C and the hardware. I' m still looking around for a matching pair to tinker with. Deke MorisseMikado MichiganS5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory=2C but progress."- Joseph Joubert ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:28:04 AM PST US From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis Deke, I have been toying with that idea for a year or so. Even gone to a few used Ski sales looking for a pair of matching boards. I have decided that I want to build wheel penetration skis with the entire board cut out behind the wheel. This would make them easy to put on and I think would still provide a lot of floatation behind the axel. The one thing I don't like with this approach is the good boards have really sharp edges on the sides. Better for snow boarding, but I think slightly turned up edges may be desirable for ktifox skis. Randy _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fox5flyer Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 6:21 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis Something I've mulled over to build for my S5 are skis built on a platform of snowboard skis. If you take a look at them, they're light, very strong, a lot of surface area, already have the curves built into them, and can be purchased used for a reasonable price. All they would need is a backbone for mounting on the axle, grab handles, and the hardware. I'm still looking around for a matching pair to tinker with. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:42:19 AM PST US From: patrick reilly Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Snowmobile Skis Deke=2C Jeesss=2C I guess I opened up a can of worms. It is obvious that yo ur snow machine skis won't handle deep powder by looking at them. That is w hy I asked what your experience with them was. Anyway keep us posted on the snowboard to ski project. I'm going to keep my eye out for a matched pair. too. do not archive Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford=2C IL From: fox5flyer@idealwifi.netTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: Kitfox-L ist: Snowmobile SkisDate: Sun=2C 21 Dec 2008 07:58:11 -0500 Actually=2C they worked fine=2C even in some fairly deep snow. The airplan e only weighed about 520 pounds=2C roughly the same as many typical snowmob iles. The total weight of the skis was actually quite a bit less than the tires and wheels. I'll see if I can dig up some photos. Deke MorisseMikado MichiganS5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory=2C but progress."- Joseph Joubert From: patrick reilly Sent: Saturday=2C December 20=2C 2008 10:34 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic Tom=2C That's not funny. Deke Morrisse in MI built his out of the plastic s kins from Artic Cat used on their snow machines. I bought a set of skins an d will have them on mine next year. They aren't real big so you need packed snow I would imagine. How about that Deke? Those snow machine skies you de signed won't work in deep snow=2C or will they? Pat ReillyMod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford=2C IL> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off to pic> From: nahsikhs@elltel.net> Date: Fri=2C 19 Dec 2008 15:39:50 -0800> To s" > > Lynn=2C> At least you have skis so some fun to look foreword to. We have plenty of snow in Central washing and more on the way. I wonder if I can take the skis off my snowmobile and put them on my kitfox.> > Merry Christmas to all=2C card attached.> > --------> Tom Jones> Classic IV> 503 Rotax=2C 72 inch Two blade Warp> Ellensburg=2C WA> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php? p=220208#220208> > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//fi les/snow_trees_card_202.jpg> > > > &============ ========> > > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chr ef="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref ="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:42:19 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: skis I just found some figures for ski sizes that I had measured a while back. This first is a Cub ski, measuring 8" x 48" for 768 sq. in for the two skis. The second is a Federal ski that measured 8" x 63" for 1008 sq. inches for the two skis. I didn't happen to notice an I.D. plate on the Federal ski or I would have written it down. I'm assuming that if the Federals belonging to my CFI were a 1500's, and measured 6" x 63", then the 8" x 63" would be for a heavier plane. I offer this info for those that are contemplating building skis for their Kitfox. As I am doing, you could get a rough idea of how big the skis have to be, but it would be just that...ROUGH. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system; also building a new pair of snow skis ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:48:55 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis What you're proposing, Randy, is basically how the Wipaire skis are designed. I have a picture of them, and it looks like the edges are turned up slightly. I also believe that's how Leonard made the bottoms that he attached to his skis. I'm going to attach side "rails" onto my new ski bottoms, such that they bend up at the edges, and act like spray rails on a boat. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system; also building a new pair of snow skis On Dec 21, 2008, at 12:26 PM, Randy Daughenbaugh wrote: > Deke, > > I have been toying with that idea for a year or so. Even gone to a > few used Ski sales looking for a pair of matching boards. > > > I have decided that I want to build wheel penetration skis with the > entire board cut out behind the wheel. This would make them easy > to put on and I think would still provide a lot of floatation > behind the axel. > > > The one thing I dont like with this approach is the good boards > have really sharp edges on the sides. Better for snow boarding, > but I think slightly turned up edges may be desirable for ktifox skis. > > > Randy > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:05:54 AM PST US From: patrick reilly Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis Randy=2C Deke=2C And Lynn=2C How about attaching "spray rails" to the edges of the board made out of 1/8" or so aluminum. And if you don't cut out the board completely behind the wheel=2C attach a bent up piece behind the whe el to eliminate the cheese cutter effect. Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford=2C IL> From: lynnmatt@jps.net> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowboard s for skis> Date: Sun=2C 21 Dec 2008 12:48:53 -0500> To: kitfox-list@matron et>> > What you're proposing=2C Randy=2C is basically how the Wipaire skis are > designed. I have a picture of them=2C and it looks like the edges are > turned up slightly. I also believe that's how Leonard made the > bottoms that he attached to his skis.> I'm going to attach side "rails" onto my ne w ski bottoms=2C such that > they bend up at the edges=2C and act like spra y rails on a boat.> > Lynn Matteson> Kitfox IV Speedster=2C taildragger> Ja biru 2200=2C #2062=2C 596+ hrs> Sensenich 62x46> flying again after rebuild =2C and new Electroair direct-fire ignition > system=3B> also building a ne w pair of snow skis> > > > > On Dec 21=2C 2008=2C at 12:26 PM=2C Randy Daug henbaugh wrote:> > > Deke=2C> >> > I have been toying with that idea for a year or so. Even gone to a > > few used Ski sales looking for a pair of mat ching boards.> >> >> >> > I have decided that I want to build wheel penetra tion skis with the > > entire board cut out behind the wheel. This would ma ke them easy > > to put on and I think would still provide a lot of floatat ion > > behind the axel.> >> >> >> > The one thing I don=92t like with this approach is the good boards > > have really sharp edges on the sides. Bett er for snow boarding=2C > > but I think slightly turned up edges may be des ========================> _ =========> > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:23:26 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: skis From: "akflyer" The original Avid ski's are about 10" X 59". You can go from there. I have never seen a set of skis for a cub that were only 48" long. My guess would be they are federals, off an old J3 or something. No modern skis are that small ( atleast no one up here is flying any that small) I would say alot depends on the local conditions you would be flying. If your average snow depth is 10" and its hard pack, stay small. If your landing in areas with 4' of powder, go big or stay home lol... -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over. hander outer of humorless darwin awards Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220410#220410 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:23:26 AM PST US From: patrick reilly Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: skis Lynn=2C Are you going to have keels on the bottom similar to the yellow ski ? Also=2C I can't see from the picture=2C how do the skis attach to the axl e? Do they screw to both ends=2C or just the inboard end of the axle? The w hite one doesn't seem to have any mount for the outboard end of the axle. Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford=2C IL> From: lynnmatt@jps.net> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: skis> Dat e: Sun=2C 21 Dec 2008 06:38:06 -0500> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com> > Here 's a shot of Wipaire's Air Glide ski that I saw at Oshkosh this > year. I'm following the basic shape of these=2C in designing my non- > repositionabl e skis. The lower picture is of Trickair ski. I though > that I would patte rn mine with the wider front area=2C and with no rear > ski area directly b ehind the wheel...sort of like a cross between the > two types shown....lik e the Wipaire in footprint=2C but the other in > being a fiberglass-covered tubing frame=2C like I have built before. If > these pics don't come out i n the order that I've placed then=2C the > Wipaire has its name on it=2C th e Trickair is yellow=2C and the other two > pics are my skis...the one shot on snow is at Oshkosh. You can see > how far my present skis ride above th e snow=2C creating lots of drag. > The next set will be MUCH lower to the g round.> > From the skis that I've seen=2C the measurements that I've taken =2C and > calculations that I've made=2C 1 lb/sq. inch seems about right. I 'm no > engineer=2C and I pretty much just "eyeball it" when it comes to > designing/copying something=2C but then again=2C I don't try to sell it > e ither. : )> > My present skis have about 480 sq. in of area=2C with the whe el hole > area removed from the overall size. I plan on shooting for 660 sq . > in=2C according to a "note to self" dated 11-30-08=2C so I must have so me > figures somewhere in all my notes that led me to that > conclusion. : ) I measured my CFI's 1500 Federal skis=2C and they came > out to 764 sq. i nches for the two skis (64" x 6") That comes out to > about 2 lbs/sq. in. o f loading.> > I've come to the conclusion that about 15" for the front widt h=2C and > 6" for the part that parallels the wheel will be what I'm shooti ng > for. In a 60" long ski this will give me about 630 sq. in. That's my > story and I'm stickin' to it...for now.> > Oh=2C one more thing=2C Paul=2C I'm gonna go with the UHMW for the initial > test of the framework/pedesta l-mounting system=2C then work on the > vacuum bagging/plywood bending=2C f iberglass-covering part later.> > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:28:04 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Snowboards for skis From: "akflyer" http://www.airglas.com/ gives lots of pics of some skis that work pretty darn well. My skis were made by a fellow that used to work at airglas. He made 5 sets so I am told of the size I have. It would not take much to pop a mold off and lay some up, or I may be able to track him down and see if he would make another run. -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over. hander outer of humorless darwin awards Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220412#220412 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:30:39 AM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Kitfox-List: Snowmobile Skis I thought I said they worked fine, but maybe I imagined it? I didn't build them for 3' of snow, nor did I build my airplane to fly 600 miles per hour or have a 2000lb useful load. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I built them for a model 2 with a pretty good idea of their limitations and I used them with those limitations in mind. I never had a problem over three winters and lots of snow time. I'm still kicking myself for letting them go with the airplane when I sold it. Naysaying doesn't help the experimental movement at all. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert Quote: "As far as snowmobile ski's or "ski skins" The same problem... on a snowmachine, in deep powder the skis support nothing as they are in the air. The thing rides on the track and belly pan when you stop. The skis are just for turning. I have tried wide parabolic skis (lotsa $) and they still dont help too much on a snowmachine. By your admittance that you would not take them into 12" of snow pretty much backs up what I said. I know these are experimental, but I would hate for someone to go wad up a perfectly good plane just because they thought the snowmachine skis would work..." ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:35:00 AM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis I think they would work just fine, but not for 18 feet of fresh powder. I'm not sure that there is any real importance in the turned up edges. They're plenty strong as they are. The would just need a good backbone, but that's easy. Just be aware of their limitations. Go for it and keep us in the loop. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Randy Daughenbaugh To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 12:26 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis Deke, I have been toying with that idea for a year or so. Even gone to a few used Ski sales looking for a pair of matching boards. I have decided that I want to build wheel penetration skis with the entire board cut out behind the wheel. This would make them easy to put on and I think would still provide a lot of floatation behind the axel. The one thing I don't like with this approach is the good boards have really sharp edges on the sides. Better for snow boarding, but I think slightly turned up edges may be desirable for ktifox skis. Randy ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of fox5flyer Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 6:21 AM To: Kitfox List Subject: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis Something I've mulled over to build for my S5 are skis built on a platform of snowboard skis. If you take a look at them, they're light, very strong, a lot of surface area, already have the curves built into them, and can be purchased used for a reasonable price. All they would need is a backbone for mounting on the axle, grab handles, and the hardware. I'm still looking around for a matching pair to tinker with. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click onthis year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts!List Contribution Web Site:--> http://www.matronics.com/contributionThank you for your generous support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. - The Kitfox-List Email Forum ---> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:03:42 AM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Kitfox-List: Snowmobile Ski Skin photos These are fairly low resolution taken a bunch of years ago, but will give an idea how the skis were put together. As I recall, I had about $90 in them. Even if one doesn't want to go with something like these, I'm sure they will lead to inspirations for other ideas. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:27:19 AM PST US From: Joel Mapes Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Slipping with FlapsRe: Slipping with Flaps Many years ago I had a '59 straight-tail 172 with 145hp=2C fixed pitch and 40 degree Johnson bar flaps. The warning against slips with full flaps is g ood advice. Trust me. 8 inches of snow here in Puget Sound country=2C where nobody has skis for t heir plane. At least my fuselage is back from the welder and for the first time in over a year has gear underneath again. Merry Christmas to all=2CJoel Model 5 912S do not archive _________________________________________________________________ Life on your PC is safer=2C easier=2C and more enjoyable with Windows Vista =AE. ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:27:21 AM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic With skis in powder snow bigger is better. There is obviously a limit to diminishing returns. When the skis get too heavy and they start to reduce airspeed. Another factor is that the skis like to track straight so larger skis will be harder to turn the plane in deep snow. Of course larger skis also make ground looping a bit more difficult. All a matter of compromise. If you have lots of large lakes or open fields and thousands of powder snow then fit the biggest thing you can fly. If you are dropping into paved run3ways and occasionally short fields where turning around may be a problem and if you see mostly packed snow then go for smaller penetration skis. Just my 0.02 BTW our friend Dave Fisher has a new video on youtube. It's about fifteen minutes long so you will want a high speed connection but it is easy to see the depth to which a ski will sink. He's pretty good as getting the plane to turn around but it's not nearly as fast turning as it was a couple of years ago. I'll bet he has new longer skis. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of akflyer Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 12:44 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic There is NO WAY the skis from a sled, unless it was from an old twin track alpine (and that would be marginal), will hold the KF up on anything but very hard packed snow or ice. They wont even hold up my sled in powder. If you try landing in 12" of powder you are going straight to he bottom. -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over. hander outer of humorless darwin awards Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220364#220364 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:44:35 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Slipping with Flaps - C172 From: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT" On Sun, December 21, 2008 11:26 am, Joel Mapes wrote: > > Many years ago I had a '59 straight-tail 172 with 145hp, fixed pitch and 40 degree > Johnson bar flaps. The warning against slips with full flaps is good advice. Trust me. Would you care to elaborate? -- Paul A. Franz Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP Bellevue WA 425.241.1618 Cell ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 12:58:17 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis Before you start doing anything with aluminium, especially in direct contact with snow, consider the fact that bare aluminium will ice up like nothing you can imagine... even under the coldest driest conditions. The very best thing to have in contact with the snow is Teflon plastic... My father built several komitiks (sleighs) to pull behind his snowmobile. The best thing he found for running surfaces was Krazy Karpet. Most hospitals have thousands of them turned in by the parents of injured children for free. They are easy to attach using strips of Teflon plastic and screws and they are easy to replace.... and there is no way you will ever get them to ice up! KrazyKarpet comes in different colours so if you want you can colour code the year you last recovered the base of your skis. Noel From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of patrick reilly Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 2:35 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis Randy, Deke, And Lynn, How about attaching "spray rails" to the edges of the board made out of 1/8" or so aluminum. And if you don't cut out the board completely behind the wheel, attach a bent up piece behind the wheel to eliminate the cheese cutter effect. Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford, IL > From: lynnmatt@jps.net > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis > Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 12:48:53 -0500 > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > What you're proposing, Randy, is basically how the Wipaire skis are > designed. I have a picture of them, and it looks like the edges are > turned up slightly. I also believe that's how Leonard made the > bottoms that he attached to his skis. > I'm going to attach side "rails" onto my new ski bottoms, such that > they bend up at the edges, and act like spray rails on a boat. > > Lynn Matteson > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs > Sensenich 62x46 > flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition > system; > also building a new pair of snow skis > > > > > On Dec 21, 2008, at 12:26 PM, Randy Daughenbaugh wrote: > > > Deke, > > > > I have been toying with that idea for a year or so. Even gone to a > > few used Ski sales looking for a pair of matching boards. > > > > > > > > I have decided that I want to build wheel penetration skis with the > > entire board cut out behind the wheel. This would make them easy > > to put on and I think would still provide a lot of floatation > > behind the axel. > > > > > > > > The one thing I don't like with this approach is the good boards > > have really sharp edges on the sides. Better for snow boarding, > > but I think slightly turned up edges may be desirable for ktifox skis. > > > > > > > > Randy > > > > > > > >= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, &g================== > > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:22:13 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis What is the square inch area of these boards that you propose using, Pat and Deke? When I was taxiing the day before yesterday, I watched the snow kicked up by the tire pile up on the tail of my ski, so I'm just not sure whether the cheese cutter effect is doing the "damage" back there or if it's the wheel itself. In either case, having no ski back there keeps the snow from accumulating there. And of course if you go without the wheel, you eliminate the problem altogether. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system; also building a new pair of snow skis On Dec 21, 2008, at 1:04 PM, patrick reilly wrote: > Randy, Deke, And Lynn, How about attaching "spray rails" to the > edges of the board made out of 1/8" or so aluminum. And if you > don't cut out the board completely behind the wheel, attach a bent > up piece behind the wheel to eliminate the cheese cutter effect. > > Pat Reilly > Mod 3 582 Rebuild > Rockford, IL > > > From: lynnmatt@jps.net > > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis > > Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 12:48:53 -0500 > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > > > > What you're proposing, Randy, is basically how the Wipaire skis are > > designed. I have a picture of them, and it looks like the edges are > > turned up slightly. I also believe that's how Leonard made the > > bottoms that he attached to his skis. > > I'm going to attach side "rails" onto my new ski bottoms, such that > > they bend up at the edges, and act like spray rails on a boat. > > > > Lynn Matteson > > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger > > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs > > Sensenich 62x46 > > flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition > > system; > > also building a new pair of snow skis > > > > > > > > > > On Dec 21, 2008, at 12:26 PM, Randy Daughenbaugh wrote: > > > > > Deke, > > > > > > I have been toying with that idea for a year or so. Even gone to a > > > few used Ski sales looking for a pair of matching boards. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have decided that I want to build wheel penetration skis with > the > > > entire board cut out behind the wheel. This would make them easy > > > to put on and I think would still provide a lot of floatation > > > behind the axel. > > > > > > > > > > > > The one thing I dont like with this approach is the good boards > > > have really sharp edges on the sides. Better for snow boarding, > > > but I think slightly turned up edges may be desirable for > ktifox skis. > > > > > > > > > > > > Randy > > > > > > > > > > > > > >= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > &g================== > > > > > > > > ============================================================ _- > ============================================================ _- > ========================================================== ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 01:25:44 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: CHT's From: gary.algate@sandvik.com Thanx Lynn, Succinct and explanatory - that's why I love your posts! Gary Gary Algate SMC, Exploration Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. ?This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe and happy Christmas". Lynn Matteson Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com 21/12/2008 09:20 PM Please respond to kitfox-list@matronics.com To kitfox-list@matronics.com cc Subject Re: Kitfox-List: Re: CHT's In order to find where the Jabiru owner is placing his probe, you only have to hide and watch and listen as he/she installs them....if installing takes a few seconds and the shop is relatively quiet, they are doing as you did, Gary, installing the probe onto the new plug and screwing down so that the probe is against the head. If, however, the job takes 10 minutes per plug and the air is foul with cussing, the recalling of the plug's questionable ancestry, and perhaps a mention of some prior incestuous fornication on the part of the plug, then he/she is installing them the way the factory suggests...removing the (%$#@*&?+*# ) washer, placing the probe onto the plug, then replacing the (%$#@*&?+*# ) washer, and installing the plug. It's a WHOLE lot easier to drill and tap the heads once...and this is a simple job with a hand held drill...cut the spark plug-sized terminal off, replace with a #8 or #10 size terminal, and mount with a socket head cap screw...DONE! You never have to touch them again. You just have to get used to seeing a much higher reading on your CHT readout...mine were about 75=B0 higher, and probably a lot more accurate than the ones sticking up in the "breeze". I can't recall just where I saw the specifics of installing the spark plug probes as per the factory, but they definitely tell you to take the washer off....(%$#@*&?+*# ) them! Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system; also building a new pair of snow skis On Dec 20, 2008, at 11:48 PM, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote: > > Hi Lynn > > You are right with your assumption. I was talking with a couple of > guys with Jab engines who told me the probe should be sandwiched > between the base of the plug (Hex section) and the washer. > > I had always sandwiched mine between the washer and the head so > that it was reading directly from the head itself. > > Anyway, as you found out a few mm can make a huge difference. > > I just went thru my install manual to find out the right position > as I assume the temps Jab quote are based on a very specific > location. I haven't found it yet. > > Gary > > Gary Algate > SMC, Exploration > Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655 > > > This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the > addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of > this message by persons or entities other than the intended > recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, > kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the > message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for > any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may > arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. > ?This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we > have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe > and happy Christmas". > > > Lynn Matteson > Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > 21/12/2008 02:36 AM > Please respond to > kitfox-list@matronics.com > > To > kitfox-list@matronics.com > cc > Subject > Re: Kitfox-List: Re: CHT's > > > You're right, Jim...mine did read higher when I screwed them right > down onto the head...by about 75=B0. This is because when the > thermocouple is sticking up into the air...(remember that the point > where the reading is taken is right where the iron wire and the > constantan wire come together...usually where the crimp on the spark > plug terminal holds the wires together)...the reading is of the crimp > of the terminal, influenced by the air passing by. If the terminal > crimp is 3/8" from the area that sits under the spark plug, there is > a loss of heat right there. Bend the terminal up into the air to > allow it to clear the fins, and you've moved the "reading spot" > further away from the head and into the airstream, which further > cools the reading. When Gary positioned his terminal above the spark > plug washer...if I'm reading his post correctly...he was moving the > terminal/probe away from the head, and the washer then became an > insulator of sorts...at least as much as a copper washer can be > called an insulator. Granted, the terminal now contacts the spark > plug, but think of where most of the metal in a spark plug > resides...away from the head and in the airstream. This theory is all > based on how I interpret Gary's explanation of where he moved the > probes/terminals. If this isn't where he positioned his terminals/ > probes, I'll go sit in the corner with a pointy hat on my head. > > When this topic was first visited, and I followed the Australian > gent's lead and attached my probes right on the heads, I also > followed someone else's suggestion and took a CHT spark plug terminal/ > probe and installed it under my #1 cylinder to compare readings of > the new placement and the old "between the plug and the plug washer" > factory-suggested location, and indeed there was about a 75=B0 > difference between the two, the "flat on the head, small electrical > terminal" location being the hotter of the two. You might temporarily > "borrow" a CHT probe from one of the other cylinders and then you'll > be comparing readings taken from just the one cylinder instead of > "identical" cylinders. Once you're satisfied, just swap it back. > > Can you fix him up with a hand-held radio for the time being? > > Lynn Matteson > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs > Sensenich 62x46 > flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition > system; > also building a new pair of snow skis > > > On Dec 20, 2008, at 12:00 AM, Jim Crowder wrote: > > > Gary and Lynn, > > > > As I remember Lynn?s temp actually read higher with his new > > placement. Am I right about that? I tapped the small holes > > between my plugs and plan to fasten my sensors there via machine > > screws as Lynn did. I plan to leave one sensor as a standard plug > > ring and mount if conventionally. I will look for differences and > > even place it on an identical cylinder and then compare that way. > > > > > > > > My metal hangar is unheated and it has been soooo cooollldddd > > here. A week ago it got to nearly 20 below zero. My fingers get > > so cold that when I drop a washer or nut, I have great trouble > > picking it up off of the concrete floor. Most days I still get > > four hours or so of work in, but I?m not too productive. My son > > has now flown his RV8 four times. He has it in my hangar. He is > > having radio problems. It is the only real problem he is having. > > It is very noisy and cuts out on transmissions at times. He was > > going up for a second time today and it quit transmitting > > completely. He cut his gain settings way back from what the > > factory had them at and that helped with the noise. We now suspect > > he may have two problems with it. Before it always worked on the > > ground. Now it doesn?t transmit at all. It receives beautifully. > > The problem is he doesn?t want to work on the radio, he wants to > fly. > > > > > > > > Jim Crowder > > > > > > > > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox- > > list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gary.algate@sandvik.com > > Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 5:13 PM > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: CHT's > > > > > > > > > > Lynn FYI > > > > yesterday I thought, for interest sake, that I'd fit my CHT probes > > above the spark plug washer to see if I got similar results as you. > > (Previously I just had mine sandwiched below the plug washer and > > the head. > > > > My Temps dropped by about 30 deg F! > > > > Previously my cruise CHT's were around 280-290 and now they're > > around 260. > > > > Regards and Merry Christmas > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > Gary Algate > > SMC, Exploration > > Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655 > > > > > > This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the > > addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of > > this message by persons or entities other than the intended > > recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, > > kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the > > message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for > > any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may > > arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. > > ?This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we > > have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe > > and happy Christmas". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lynn Matteson > > > > Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > > 20/12/2008 09:12 AM > > Please respond to > > kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > > To > > > > kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > > cc > > > > Subject > > > > Kitfox-List: Lovely snow...damned snow! Off topic > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We (in lower, Lower Michigan) got about 5-11" of new snow today, > > (added to the 3-4" last week) but the damn stuff didn't quit until > > flying hours...for me....were over for the day. Plus, the driveway > > into the hangar was too deep to negotiate, and the plow guy was not > > available. Tomorrow will/should be better for getting my ski- > equipped > > Kitfox out and enjoy the snow-flying. If this stuff would just come > > 2-3" at a time, I could handle the driveway and parking (the car) > > problems, but when it comes in "wholesale" amounts, it's just too > > much...damn! > > Oh well, I've got a fresh bottle of Baileys Irish Cream to help me > > through the night, plenty of wood brought inside to feed the fire, > > and plenty of projects (vacuum bagging and TIG-welding practicing to > > be done for the next pair of skis) to keep me busy. And you guys > have > > got your Kitfox-building projects, so all is well. :) > > > > Lynn Matteson > > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger > > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs > > Sensenich 62x46 > > flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition > > system; > > also building a new pair of snow skis > > > > > > > > > > > > ========== > > -- > > Gifts!) > > on > > about > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > ========== > > Forum - > > FAQ, > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List > > ========== > > WEB FORUMS - > > ========== > > > > > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/ > > Navigator?Kitfox-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com > > ====================== ============ =5F- > > ====================== ============ =5F- > > ====================== ========== > > > ======================= =5F-====================== ========== =5F- =5F-= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- =5F-= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) =5F- =5F-= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on =5F-= the Contribution link below to find out more about =5F-= this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts! =5F- =5F-= List Contribution Web Site: =5F- =5F-= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution =5F- =5F-= Thank you for your generous support! =5F- =5F-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. =5F- =5F-====================== ========== =5F-= - The Kitfox-List Email Forum - =5F-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse =5F-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, =5F-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, =5F-= Photoshare, and much much more: =5F- =5F-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List =5F- =5F-====================== ========== =5F-= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - =5F-= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! =5F- =5F-= --> http://forums.matronics.com =5F- =5F-====================== ========== ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 01:45:31 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: skis Those "keels", although they act like keels are actually wear bars, that take the brunt of the wear that would otherwise occur if the tire should get low, or if you land hard on pavement. Yes, I'm going to have them on mine. Before I make the plywood and fiberglass bottoms, I'm going to use UHMW over the whole bottom, and then attach the wear bars to them. I haven't thought it completely through yet, but I might sandwich my "spray rails" between the bottom and the wear bars. I'll post a picture or two of my pedestal mount, as far along as it is, in a little while. The yellow skis (Trickair) attach to a stub axle that is bolted to the inboard side of the Grove landing gear. The white one...the Wipaire...attaches to the landing gear by (I think) either bolted on, or welded on, brackets. Go to http://www.trickair.com/ to see their site and maybe watch the video of their skis in action. I haven't watched it, because my computer modem is too slow. Also, look again at the picture of the yellow ski. Just to the left of the ski, is the tubing framework that the ski is built around. It is black and hard to pick out because it blends in with the display rack, which is also black. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system; also building a new pair of snow skis On Dec 21, 2008, at 1:22 PM, patrick reilly wrote: > Lynn, Are you going to have keels on the bottom similar to the > yellow ski? Also, I can't see from the picture, how do the skis > attach to the axle? Do they screw to both ends, or just the inboard > end of the axle? The white one doesn't seem to have any mount for > the outboard end of the axle. > > Pat Reilly > Mod 3 582 Rebuild > Rockford, IL > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 01:56:20 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: skis The 48" skis were on a Cub, but whether they were original or not, I didn't ask. They are about 3/4" plywood for the bottom, which has very little curve-up, another 3/4" shorter board for stiffening, and used a stamped sheet metal tapered tubular pedestal that slipped over the axle, in place of the wheel. When I flew over to where this Cub was visiting, he had been on the ground for some time, and when he tried to leave, we had to rock his wings to break him loose, as he had been frozen down. I always stand on the tips of my skis before I get into the plane. Of course, his are plywood, and mine are UHMW, so his will stick before mine, especially if he hasn't waxed them....I've never waxed mine, and maybe I should....might help. If we EVER get 4' of anything down here, I'm in front of the fire...screw the flying! Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system; also building a new pair of snow skis On Dec 21, 2008, at 1:23 PM, akflyer wrote: > > The original Avid ski's are about 10" X 59". You can go from there. > > I have never seen a set of skis for a cub that were only 48" long. > My guess would be they are federals, off an old J3 or something. > No modern skis are that small ( atleast no one up here is flying > any that small) I would say alot depends on the local conditions > you would be flying. If your average snow depth is 10" and its > hard pack, stay small. If your landing in areas with 4' of powder, > go big or stay home lol... > > -------- > DO NOT ARCHIVE > Leonard Perry > Soldotna AK > Avid "C" / Mk IV > 582 IVO IFA > Full Lotus 1260 > As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis > takes over. > > hander outer of humorless darwin awards > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220410#220410 > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 02:03:24 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowmobile Ski Skin photos But, Deke, where are the wheels? : ) You sent me these pics a couple of years ago, and indeed they inspired me to build....a bit different, but build just the same. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system; also building a new pair of snow skis do not archive On Dec 21, 2008, at 2:02 PM, fox5flyer wrote: > > These are fairly low resolution taken a bunch of years ago, but > will give an idea how the skis were put together. As I recall, I > had about $90 in them. > Even if one doesn't want to go with something like these, I'm sure > they will lead to inspirations for other ideas. > Deke Morisse > Mikado Michigan > S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT > "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but > progress." > - Joseph Joubert > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 03:02:17 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: skis Pat- Here are the pictures of the pedestal parts that I've built so far, and a mockup of the proposed ski using 3/4" wood where 4130 round tubing and flat plate will be. As you can see, the 4 holes in the "stub axle" will bolt up to the back side of the Grove gear. If I choose to leave this stub axle in place all year long...with suitable fairing made of fiberglass....installation will be simply sliding the ski onto the axle and securing the nut and cotter pin, and attaching all the safety cables, etc., ...and praying for snow. On Dec 21, 2008, at 1:22 PM, patrick reilly wrote: > Lynn, Are you going to have keels on the bottom similar to the > yellow ski? Also, I can't see from the picture, how do the skis > attach to the axle? Do they screw to both ends, or just the inboard > end of the axle? The white one doesn't seem to have any mount for > the outboard end of the axle. > > Pat Reilly > Mod 3 582 Rebuild > Rockford, IL > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 03:14:44 PM PST US From: "Ron Liebmann" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowmobile Ski Skin photos Hey there Deke, You are one great designer/fabricator for sure. Your ski's look super! Ron Schaumburg 55KF ----- Original Message ----- From: fox5flyer To: Kitfox List Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 1:02 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Snowmobile Ski Skin photos These are fairly low resolution taken a bunch of years ago, but will give an idea how the skis were put together. As I recall, I had about $90 in them. Even if one doesn't want to go with something like these, I'm sure they will lead to inspirations for other ideas. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 03:36:09 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: water overflow bottle height From: "jridgway" I understand from the ROTAX documentation that the water overflow bottle can be up to 10 inches below the radiator cap. Won't this allow the air (volume=10 inches x inner hose diameter) in the overflow line enter the engine before it actually brings up any water? Is this small amount of air OK? Does this air get purged out with water during the cooling recovery cycle? I am not using a separate expansion tank. Thanks..Jack Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220456#220456 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 03:43:38 PM PST US From: Clint Bazzill Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Slipping with Flaps HOW IN THE WORLD DO YOU SPIN OUT OF A SLIP? CLINT > Date: Sun=2C 21 Dec 2008 06:59:51 -0800> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com> F rom: bnn@nethere.com> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Slipping with Flaps> > 26 PM 12/20/2008=2C you wrote:> >Seemed like a good alternative to lots of spiraling where you could > >get too slow and spin if you weren't careful. Anyone else ever do this?> > Yeah=2C but it's really uncomfortable holding the doors open with your > feet in a Kitfox. =3B-)> > > Guy Buchanan> San D iego=2C CA> K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade> 100% and flying thanks m ====> > > ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 04:58:51 PM PST US From: "Jim Crowder" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis This sounds like what I purchased a few years ago to put under heavy objects so as to allow one person to take hold of a lead rope and easily move very heavy object around on carpet. I believe they came from a carpet layer's supply house. They were unbelievable for that. Jim Crowder From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 1:57 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis Before you start doing anything with aluminium, especially in direct contact with snow, consider the fact that bare aluminium will ice up like nothing you can imagine... even under the coldest driest conditions. The very best thing to have in contact with the snow is Teflon plastic... My father built several komitiks (sleighs) to pull behind his snowmobile. The best thing he found for running surfaces was Krazy Karpet. Most hospitals have thousands of them turned in by the parents of injured children for free. They are easy to attach using strips of Teflon plastic and screws and they are easy to replace.... and there is no way you will ever get them to ice up! KrazyKarpet comes in different colours so if you want you can colour code the year you last recovered the base of your skis. Noel From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of patrick reilly Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 2:35 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis Randy, Deke, And Lynn, How about attaching "spray rails" to the edges of the board made out of 1/8" or so aluminum. And if you don't cut out the board completely behind the wheel, attach a bent up piece behind the wheel to eliminate the cheese cutter effect. Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford, IL > From: lynnmatt@jps.net > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis > Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 12:48:53 -0500 > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > What you're proposing, Randy, is basically how the Wipaire skis are > designed. I have a picture of them, and it looks like the edges are > turned up slightly. I also believe that's how Leonard made the > bottoms that he attached to his skis. > I'm going to attach side "rails" onto my new ski bottoms, such that > they bend up at the edges, and act like spray rails on a boat. > > Lynn Matteson > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs > Sensenich 62x46 > flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition > system; > also building a new pair of snow skis > > > > > On Dec 21, 2008, at 12:26 PM, Randy Daughenbaugh wrote: > > > Deke, > > > > I have been toying with that idea for a year or so. Even gone to a > > few used Ski sales looking for a pair of matching boards. > > > > > > > > I have decided that I want to build wheel penetration skis with the > > entire board cut out behind the wheel. This would make them easy > > to put on and I think would still provide a lot of floatation > > behind the axel. > > > > > > > > The one thing I don't like with this approach is the good boards > > have really sharp edges on the sides. Better for snow boarding, > > but I think slightly turned up edges may be desirable for ktifox skis. > > > > > > > > Randy > > > > > > > >= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, &g================== > > > http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 07:42:15 PM PST US From: Weiss Richard Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: water overflow bottle height Jack, Which engine are you using? Each model may be different. On my 912ULS, the 10 inch measurement you cite is accurate, but the formula you wrote is not for volume. The volume would be volume = r2 h. Where r is the radius of the hose and h is the length (height) of the hose. This may be air or fluid depending on your installation and how you fill the reservoir and overflow container. If the hose has air, it will eventually be released out the hole in the cap of the overflow bottle. I don't think there's a problem with that small amount of air anyway, since it can't back flow into the reservoir due to the pressure valve in the cap. When the engine heats up, the air in the hose will expand and some of it will bubble out the breather hole in the cap and be replaced with the fluid in the overflow container. If the pressure gets to great in the system, the cap valve releases and allows coolant to flow into the overflow container. Thus the air is purged out anyway. Just be sure you have sufficient coolant in the overflow container so air is not sucked into the system when it cools down. Hope this helps. Rick Weiss N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS SkyStar S/N 1 Port Orange, FL On Dec 21, 2008, at 6:34 PM, jridgway wrote: > > > > I understand from the ROTAX documentation that the water overflow > bottle can be up to 10 inches below the radiator cap. Won't this > allow the air (volume=10 inches x inner hose diameter) in the > overflow line enter the engine before it actually brings up any > water? Is this small amount of air OK? Does this air get purged out > with water during the cooling recovery cycle? I am not using a > separate expansion tank. > Thanks..Jack > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220456#220456 > > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 08:02:57 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: water overflow bottle height From: "Roger Lee" The hose comes off the bottom of the tank so it will only draw liquid. You should not have an air issue. An example would be when you take the cap off the coolant expansion tank air can get in and the fluid level is not always at the top. It has an air space at times if the level is down slightly. -------- Roger Lee Tucson, Az. Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated Rotax Service Center 520-574-1080 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220482#220482 ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 08:47:05 PM PST US From: James Shumaker Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: water overflow bottle height Jack=0A=0AYour overflow bottle is a "seperate expansion tank."=0A=0AJim Shu maker=0A=0Ado not archive=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A From: jridgway =0ATo: kitfox-list@matronics.co m=0ASent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 3:34:57 PM=0ASubject: Kitfox-List: wate =0A=0AI understand from the ROTAX documentati on that the water overflow bottle can be up to 10 inches below the radiator cap. Won't this allow the air (volume=10 inches x inner hose diameter) i n the overflow line enter the engine before it actually brings up any water ? Is this small amount of air OK? Does this air get purged out with water d uring the cooling recovery cycle? I am not using a separate expansion tank. =0AThanks..Jack=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://foru ====================== ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:11:38 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Slipping with Flaps At 03:42 PM 12/21/2008, you wrote: >HOW IN THE WORLD DO YOU SPIN OUT OF A SLIP? Easy. Just slow down. If cross controlled you'll initiate a spin every time. Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade 100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:17:44 AM PST US From: patrick reilly Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis Lynn=2C I haven't got snowboards yet. Just saw the posting of the idea. But you can bet=2C thanks to your posting Lynn=2C they will be bigger than 1 s q" per pound of air plane. Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford=2CIL> From: lynnmatt@jps.net> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis> Date: Sun=2C 21 Dec 2008 16:19:40 -0500> To: kitfox-list@matroni t>> > What is the square inch area of these boards that you propose using =2C > Pat and Deke?> > When I was taxiing the day before yesterday=2C I wat ched the snow > kicked up by the tire pile up on the tail of my ski=2C so I 'm just not > sure whether the cheese cutter effect is doing the "damage" b ack > there or if it's the wheel itself. In either case=2C having no ski ba ck > there keeps the snow from accumulating there. And of course if you go > without the wheel=2C you eliminate the problem altogether.> > Lynn Mattes on> Kitfox IV Speedster=2C taildragger> Jabiru 2200=2C #2062=2C 596+ hrs> S ensenich 62x46> flying again after rebuild=2C and new Electroair direct-fir e ignition > system=3B> also building a new pair of snow skis> > > > > On D ec 21=2C 2008=2C at 1:04 PM=2C patrick reilly wrote:> > > Randy=2C Deke=2C And Lynn=2C How about attaching "spray rails" to the > > edges of the board made out of 1/8" or so aluminum. And if you > > don't cut out the board co mpletely behind the wheel=2C attach a bent > > up piece behind the wheel to eliminate the cheese cutter effect.> >> > Pat Reilly> > Mod 3 582 Rebuild> > Rockford=2C IL> >> > > From: lynnmatt@jps.net> > > Subject: Re: Kitfox-L ist: Snowboards for skis> > > Date: Sun=2C 21 Dec 2008 12:48:53 -0500> > > Lynn Matteson > > >> > > What you're proposing=2C Randy =2C is basically how the Wipaire skis are> > > designed. I have a picture o f them=2C and it looks like the edges are> > > turned up slightly. I also b elieve that's how Leonard made the> > > bottoms that he attached to his ski s.> > > I'm going to attach side "rails" onto my new ski bottoms=2C such th at> > > they bend up at the edges=2C and act like spray rails on a boat.> > >> > > Lynn Matteson> > > Kitfox IV Speedster=2C taildragger> > > Jabiru 2 200=2C #2062=2C 596+ hrs> > > Sensenich 62x46> > > flying again after rebui ld=2C and new Electroair direct-fire ignition> > > system=3B> > > also buil ding a new pair of snow skis> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > On Dec 21=2C 2008=2C at 12:26 PM=2C Randy Daughenbaugh wrote:> > >> > > > Deke=2C> > > >> > > > I have been toying with that idea for a year or so. Even gone to a> > > > f ew used Ski sales looking for a pair of matching boards.> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > I have decided that I want to build wheel penetration skis with > > the> > > > entire board cut out behind the wheel. This would make them e asy> > > > to put on and I think would still provide a lot of floatation> > > > behind the axel.> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > The one thing I don=92t l ike with this approach is the good boards> > > > have really sharp edges on the sides. Better for snow boarding=2C> > > > but I think slightly turned up edges may be desirable for > > ktifox skis.> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > Randy> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >= Archive Search & Download=2C 7-D ay Browse=2C Chat=2C FAQ=2C> > &g============== ======> > >> > >> > >> >> > =========== > > ======================= ============ _- > > ========== =================> > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:39:11 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking Here's another idea....install under-seat tool boxes. John & Debra McBean sell them I'm sure. Either there or Murle Williams. I got two of 'em and installed them and I seem to recall that they will contact a diagonal member of the fuse before anything hits the control rods. Talk about killing two birds....now you've got places to put more crap! Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system; also building a new pair of snow skis On Dec 22, 2008, at 11:20 AM, Marco Menezes wrote: > Ken, There will always be varying opinion on such issues so here's > mine, FWIW: You've apparently already addressed the safety issue by > installing webbing straps. These are, in reality, now supporting > the weight of the seat pan and it's occupants. If you've done this > job properly (as I'm sure you have) so long as the webbing is > intact, the seat pan will not fail. So, my humble advice would be > to repair the cracks in the pan and carefully inspect pan, webbing > and its attachment points at each annual. > > Marco Menezes N99KX > Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch > > > --- On Mon, 12/22/08, sbennett3 wrote: > From: sbennett3 > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Date: Monday, December 22, 2008, 10:32 AM > > Ken, I don't have suggestions to help you fix your seat issue, just > a reminder that there are control rods running under that seat that > if collapsed on will keep you from being able to control ailerons. > I had that happen to me once. Maybe a new seat can be on your > Christmas list. Personally, i'd replace it. Steve Bennett > classic 4 912ul... Durham NC > > > In a message dated 12/22/08 10:12:44 Eastern Standard Time, > kenharrison@comporium.net writes: > What is the best way to keep the fiberglass seat from cracking? > Mine has very small cracks that are right at the outside edges both > sides, basically half way up the back. It makes a crackling sound > every time I get in. I have re-enforced the seat with some seat > belt material underneath but was wondering if anyone has a better > solution. > > I am going to repair the fiberglass and thought Id check to see if > anyone has dealt with this problem. I dont want to make the > fiberglass repair and then just have it crack again in the same place. > > Ive read about the seats failing and jamming the controls...always > in the back of my mind. > > Thanks, > Ken > > > Listen to 350+ music, sports, & news radio stations including > songs for the holidays FREE while you browse. Start Listening Now! > blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/ > contributionarget=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/ > Navigator?Kitfox-List=nofollow>http://forums.matronics.com > > ============================================================ _- > ============================================================ _- > =========================================================== ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:40:19 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Need Fiberglass Seats At 08:37 AM 12/22/2008, you wrote: >If anyone out in Kitfox land has an interior, seat pan or >glareshield from a parted out kitfox or just spare parts they are >willing to sell, please contact me. I haven't contacted Kitfox yet >to see if they have any of these parts that would allow me to finish my kit. Paul, I think I have a fiberglass seat pan for you. I'll be able to check after the new year. Please send me a reminder off-list, (brain damage, you know,) the first week in January. Hopefully you'll find one closer before then. Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade 100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:40:29 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Kitfox-List: seat pans cracking- kitfox model III At 08:54 AM 12/22/2008, you wrote: >Dont make fiberglass repairs on the top side as this is the plastic >(ABS, I think) side. The seat has been manufactured like a fiberglass tub. Actually this surface is in all likelihood polyester gel-coat. As such it adheres fine. However it is not structural and should be ground off before applying any structural material. Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade 100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:40:29 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Kitfox-List: RE: Kitfox-List Digest: 39 Msgs - 12/21/08 At 09:50 AM 12/22/2008, you wrote: >My 582-90 does not have a thermostat. Can one simply be added to the intake >or is a new intake housing needed? I'm guessing you still have the thermostat housing attached to the head, or else someone went to a lot of unnecessary work fabricating a replacement. As such you should be able to simply install one. >I am not clear on the implications of a >thermostat to prevent cold seizure. Seems that with no thermostat, a >prolonged idling descent would allow constant circulation rather than a >buildup of cool water in the radiator, thus no cold seizure risk. Am I >thinking logically? You've got it right. I've heard a lot of people don't use them. I don't know what the implications are, however, of trying to run the engine at full power with the whole thing really cold. (I.e. less than the 140F the thermostat opens at.) Presumably Rotax included a thermostat for a reason. >And, will an occasional engine runup while descending >prevent seizure? Yes and no. What you have to do to prevent cold seizure is either: 1) keep the radiator water circulating, therefore keep the water temp above 140, at least occasionally, or 2) return to power very gradually, the same way you would warm the engine on the ground. I either do very gradual high power descents keeping everything warm or steep low power descents followed by a gradual increase in RPM watching the water temp and keeping the RPM below, say 4000. The latter is very difficult to do when it's really cold. I have had to slow to near stall to get the engine to warm gradually. Hopefully Noel or Dave or one of the other northern fliers will reply. They must do this all the time. Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade 100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 10:48:48 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis I'm heading for the "plastic store" to get my ski bottoms, and I just ordered all the tubing and hardware needed for my new skis. I'll be Santa's little helper in a few days. : ) Yup, as all my ex-wives used to say..."bigger is better"....guess that's why they sought greener pastures.... Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system; also building a new pair of snow skis do not archive On Dec 22, 2008, at 1:17 PM, patrick reilly wrote: > Lynn, I haven't got snowboards yet. Just saw the posting of the > idea. But you can bet, thanks to your posting Lynn, they will be > bigger than 1 sq" per pound of air plane. > > Pat Reilly > Mod 3 582 Rebuild > Rockford,IL > > > From: lynnmatt@jps.net > > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis > > Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 16:19:40 -0500 > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > > > > What is the square inch area of these boards that you propose using, > > Pat and Deke? > > > > When I was taxiing the day before yesterday, I watched the snow > > kicked up by the tire pile up on the tail of my ski, so I'm just not > > sure whether the cheese cutter effect is doing the "damage" back > > there or if it's the wheel itself. In either case, having no ski > back > > there keeps the snow from accumulating there. And of course if > you go > > without the wheel, you eliminate the problem altogether. > > > > Lynn Matteson > > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger > > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs > > Sensenich 62x46 > > flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition > > system; > > also building a new pair of snow skis > > > > > > > > > > On Dec 21, 2008, at 1:04 PM, patrick reilly wrote: > > > > > Randy, Deke, And Lynn, How about attaching "spray rails" to the > > > edges of the board made out of 1/8" or so aluminum. And if you > > > don't cut out the board completely behind the wheel, attach a bent > > > up piece behind the wheel to eliminate the cheese cutter effect. > > > > > > Pat Reilly > > > Mod 3 582 Rebuild > > > Rockford, IL > > > > > > > From: lynnmatt@jps.net > > > > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Snowboards for skis > > > > Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 12:48:53 -0500 > > > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > What you're proposing, Randy, is basically how the Wipaire > skis are > > > > designed. I have a picture of them, and it looks like the > edges are > > > > turned up slightly. I also believe that's how Leonard made the > > > > bottoms that he attached to his skis. > > > > I'm going to attach side "rails" onto my new ski bottoms, > such that > > > > they bend up at the edges, and act like spray rails on a boat. > > > > > > > > Lynn Matteson > > > > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger > > > > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs > > > > Sensenich 62x46 > > > > flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire > ignition > > > > system; > > > > also building a new pair of snow skis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Dec 21, 2008, at 12:26 PM, Randy Daughenbaugh wrote: > > > > > > > > > Deke, > > > > > > > > > > I have been toying with that idea for a year or so. Even > gone to a > > > > > few used Ski sales looking for a pair of matching boards. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have decided that I want to build wheel penetration skis > with > > > the > > > > > entire board cut out behind the wheel. This would make them > easy > > > > > to put on and I think would still provide a lot of floatation > > > > > behind the axel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The one thing I dont like with this approach is the good > boards > > > > > have really sharp edges on the sides. Better for snow > boarding, > > > > > but I think slightly turned up edges may be desirable for > > > ktifox skis. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Randy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > > > &g=================== > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ========== > > > =================================== _- > > > ========= > > > > > > > Browse, Chat, FAQ, > >================== > > > > > > > > ============================================================ _- > ============================================================ _- > =========================================================== ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 11:02:45 AM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking Ken, My suggestion would be to scuff sand the cracked edge top and bottom and lay a couple of layers of fiberglass tape (top and bottom) over the surface near the edge. The top (white) layer is gelcoat and make sure the scuff sanding removes the gelcoat in the affected areas. the edge would then be similar to a foam sandwich where the original glass and cracks would be like the foam and really non structural and the layers of glass top and bottom would be the structural part. Also my opinion is that your repair would be for the most part to eliminate the noise and give some confidence that the seat will not crack straight across. Fiber glass structures are not like plexiglass where a crack will always continue to propagate. Consider also that seat lockers were common options for small tools etc. These required cutting large holes in the seat bottoms which would seriously weaken the structure. Regarding the seat pan failures in the past. I don't think there has ever been a pan failure in a Model I through IV. The failures came after Skystar added the trim panel in front of the seat and needed to change the leading edge of the seat from the tube grabbing "C" lip to the gentler curved and shorter 45 lip to accommodate the trim panel. This is a classic example of how a seemingly non structural design change to add a bit of eye appeal (and weight) resulted in a serious safety issue. The failures were not structural failures of the pan, but would come on a hard landing or severe turbulence when the seat would spring down under the pilot's weight and the forward lip would slip off the bulkhead tube. I am not aware of a seat failure from structural collapse. Also regarding the old style, I know a guy that has put over a thousand hours on two Model IVs and has never tied the seat pan to the airframe with the nylon tiewraps. I have seen him in "turn back" turbulance and tons of off airport landings with no incidences. Lowell Fitt Cameron Park, CA Model IV-1200 R-912 UL Currently focusing on the Left Wing - almost ready to cover, fuselage as well. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Harrison" Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 7:11 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking What is the best way to keep the fiberglass seat from cracking? Mine has very small cracks that are right at the outside edges both sides, basically half way up the back. It makes a crackling sound every time I get in. I have re-enforced the seat with some seat belt material underneath but was wondering if anyone has a better solution. I am going to repair the fiberglass and thought Id check to see if anyone has dealt with this problem. I dont want to make the fiberglass repair and then just have it crack again in the same place. Ive read about the seats failing and jamming the controls...always in the back of my mind. Thanks, Ken ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 11:19:44 AM PST US From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Slipping with Flaps Nope. Ain't so. I argued with Clint about this a while back. And Lost! There are two different uncoordinated conditions. In one case the nose of the craft is blocking air to the low wing. This will introduce you to a spin very quickly as soon as you get slow..... The other case is a purposeful slip. In this case the nose of the craft is blocking the HIGH wing. If you lose lift on the high wing due to getting too slow, you will level the wing.... Clint can explain it better than I can, but that is the essence of the explanation. Randy -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 11:09 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Slipping with Flaps At 03:42 PM 12/21/2008, you wrote: >HOW IN THE WORLD DO YOU SPIN OUT OF A SLIP? Easy. Just slow down. If cross controlled you'll initiate a spin every time. Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade 100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 11:43:44 AM PST US From: Joel Mapes Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Slipping with Flaps - C172 On Sun=2C December 21=2C 2008 11:26 am=2C Joel Mapes wrote: > > M any years ago I had a '59 straight-tail 172 with 145hp=2C fixed pitch and 4 0 degree > Johnson bar flaps. The warning against slips with full flap s is good advice. Trust me. Would you care to elaborate? -- Paul A. Franz Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin G T Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP Bellevue WA 425.241.1618 C ell Forward slips with full flaps in the middle of the white arc at altitude pr oduced noticible pitch control buffet=2C enough so that I never tried it ne ar the ground. With as much drag as those big barn door flaps at 40 degrees produced=2C slips really were not necessary. Yank up on the handle=2C hold up the nose until the airspeed got near the bottom of the white arc and th en just let her come down. The sink rate was truly impressive.Joel Model 5 912 GTA CS prop Aerocomp amphibs _________________________________________________________________ It=92s the same Hotmail=AE. If by =93same=94 you mean up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad 1_122008 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 12:13:06 PM PST US From: "jdmcbean" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Need Fiberglass Seats Paul, Give us a call when you're ready. We can help. On another note. Hope everyone has a Safe and Very Merry Christmas !! and New Year !! Fly Safe !! John McBean "The Sky is not the Limit... It's a Playground" From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Morel Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 9:37 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Need Fiberglass Seats I'm in a real fix here. I'm in the final stage of completing my Model IV Speedster and my upholstery guy took my fiberglass seat pan and glare shield in order to finish off my interior. I've lost total contact with him. Either he skipped town or something very bad has happened to him. At this point, I really don't expect to see my things again. If anyone out in Kitfox land has an interior, seat pan or glareshield from a parted out kitfox or just spare parts they are willing to sell, please contact me. I haven't contacted Kitfox yet to see if they have any of these parts that would allow me to finish my kit. I'll give them a call sometime after the holidays if I come up empty handed from the matronics list. Thanks Paul Morel Model IV Speedster Locust Grove, GA ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 12:17:16 PM PST US From: "Paul Morel" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Need Fiberglass Seats Guy I'll get with you after the new year. Send me your email so I can contact you off-list. Thanks Paul pmorel@bellsouth.net ----- Original Message ----- From: Guy Buchanan To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 1:23 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Need Fiberglass Seats At 08:37 AM 12/22/2008, you wrote: If anyone out in Kitfox land has an interior, seat pan or glareshield from a parted out kitfox or just spare parts they are willing to sell, please contact me. I haven't contacted Kitfox yet to see if they have any of these parts that would allow me to finish my kit. Paul, I think I have a fiberglass seat pan for you. I'll be able to check after the new year. Please send me a reminder off-list, (brain damage, you know,) the first week in January. Hopefully you'll find one closer before then. Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade 100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 12:18:39 PM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: skis Lynn, STOP PRAYING! We've got enough snow. Deke ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 5:58 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: skis > Pat- > Here are the pictures of the pedestal parts that I've built so far, > and a mockup of the proposed ski using 3/4" wood where 4130 round > tubing and flat plate will be. As you can see, the 4 holes in the > "stub axle" will bolt up to the back side of the Grove gear. If I > choose to leave this stub axle in place all year long...with suitable > fairing made of fiberglass....installation will be simply sliding the > ski onto the axle and securing the nut and cotter pin, and attaching > all the safety cables, etc., ...and praying for snow. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Dec 21, 2008, at 1:22 PM, patrick reilly wrote: > >> Lynn, Are you going to have keels on the bottom similar to the >> yellow ski? Also, I can't see from the picture, how do the skis >> attach to the axle? Do they screw to both ends, or just the inboard >> end of the axle? The white one doesn't seem to have any mount for >> the outboard end of the axle. >> >> Pat Reilly >> Mod 3 582 Rebuild >> Rockford, IL >> > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 12:32:32 PM PST US From: Michael Gibbs Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking Lynn sez: >Here's another idea....install under-seat tool boxes. >John & Debra McBean sell them I'm sure. Either >there or Murle Williams. I can't say how they affect the structural integrity of the seat pan but during my accident both under-seat compartments in my 'fox were completely flattened. We believe they helped cushion the impact by crumpling, though, and I had no back injuries. I got my toolboxes from Murle Williams Mike G. Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster Phoenix, AZ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 01:09:49 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking They might just provide a "crush zone" in that regard. I think I got mine from Williams, too. As I recall, John either didn't have them when I ordered mine, or I didn't check....and this was before he became www.kitfoxaircraft.com anyway. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system; also building a new pair of snow skis On Dec 22, 2008, at 3:23 PM, Michael Gibbs wrote: > > > Lynn sez: > > >Here's another idea....install under-seat tool boxes. > >John & Debra McBean sell them I'm sure. Either > >there or Murle Williams. > > I can't say how they affect the structural integrity of the seat > pan but during my accident both under-seat compartments in my 'fox > were completely flattened. We believe they helped cushion the > impact by crumpling, though, and I had no back injuries. > > I got my toolboxes from Murle Williams MurleWilliamsAviation.com> > > Mike G. > Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster > Phoenix, AZ > >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 01:16:37 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking When I bought my minimally completed kit, it came with a seat support kit, which consisted of 2" wide web strapping, and 8 hose clamps, and directions for slotting the seat so the clamps could be slid through the slots and around the fuselage tubes. I installed all 8 at first, then during the first annual, cut the number to 4. Big PITA to R & R them, and I feel 4 does the job WAY more than the tiewraps could ever hope to. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system; also building a new pair of snow skis On Dec 22, 2008, at 1:54 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote: > > I know a guy that has put over a thousand hours on two Model IVs > and has never tied the seat pan to the airframe with the nylon > tiewraps. I have seen him in "turn back" turbulance and tons of > off airport landings with no incidences. > > Lowell Fitt > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 01:31:36 PM PST US From: Weiss Richard Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking Lynn, When I installed my seat pan (at the very end of the build process) I had already installed four web straps to support the seat from 'falling' onto the controls. (Each piece of webbing is good for supporting over a ton.) I opted to use the tie wraps (instead of hose clamps) figuring they're there just to keep the seat pan from bouncing up and off the support tubes in case of turbulence. I don't see that they don't provide any other obvious function. Even wearing the seat belts provides substantial down force on the seat to hold it in place. Am I missing something here about the hose clamps? Rick Weiss N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS SkyStar S/N 1 Port Orange, FL On Dec 22, 2008, at 4:16 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote: > > When I bought my minimally completed kit, it came with a seat > support kit, which consisted of 2" wide web strapping, and 8 hose > clamps, and directions for slotting the seat so the clamps could be > slid through the slots and around the fuselage tubes. I installed > all 8 at first, then during the first annual, cut the number to 4. > Big PITA to R & R them, and I feel 4 does the job WAY more than the > tiewraps could ever hope to. > > Lynn Matteson > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs > Sensenich 62x46 > flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition > system; > also building a new pair of snow skis > > > On Dec 22, 2008, at 1:54 PM, Lowell Fitt wrote: > >> > > >> I know a guy that has put over a thousand hours on two Model IVs >> and has never tied the seat pan to the airframe with the nylon >> tiewraps. I have seen him in "turn back" turbulance and tons of >> off airport landings with no incidences. >> >> Lowell Fitt >> > > ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 01:35:09 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: skis Ha, Ha...you might be right, Deke. I got stuck in the drive to the hangar today, and when unstuck, I was too pooped to participate in flying. Tomorrow maybe... It's a shame, too, because even at 9 degrees above zero F, the engine in my Kitfox reported a toasty 106 F oil temp, and 65 F head temp...it was just beggin' to be lit up! You guys who are building, keep up the good work...you guys who live where there's snow and don't have skis, I would suggest strongly to get some and enjoy winter flying...it's fun! Oh, by the way, I just got around to adding up the hours in my logbook, and last Thursday, I reached my 500th hour of solo flight. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system; also building a new pair of snow skis On Dec 22, 2008, at 3:18 PM, fox5flyer wrote: > > > Lynn, STOP PRAYING! We've got enough snow. > Deke > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" > To: > Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 5:58 PM > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: skis > > >> Pat- >> Here are the pictures of the pedestal parts that I've built so far, >> and a mockup of the proposed ski using 3/4" wood where 4130 round >> tubing and flat plate will be. As you can see, the 4 holes in the >> "stub axle" will bolt up to the back side of the Grove gear. If I >> choose to leave this stub axle in place all year long...with suitable >> fairing made of fiberglass....installation will be simply sliding the >> ski onto the axle and securing the nut and cotter pin, and attaching >> all the safety cables, etc., ...and praying for snow. >> ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 01:44:07 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: [!! SPAM] RE: Kitfox-List Digest: 39 Msgs - 12/21/08 From: "akflyer" Guy Buchanan wrote: > At 09:50 AM 12/22/2008, you wrote: > > > My 582-90 does not have a thermostat. Can one simply be added to the intake > > or is a new intake housing needed? > > > > > > I'm guessing you still have the thermostat housing attached to the > head, or else someone went to a lot of unnecessary work fabricating a > replacement. As such you should be able to simply install one. > > > > I am not clear on the implications of a > > thermostat to prevent cold seizure. Seems that with no thermostat, a > > prolonged idling descent would allow constant circulation rather than a > > buildup of cool water in the radiator, thus no cold seizure risk. Am I > > thinking logically? > > > > > > You've got it right. I've heard a lot of people don't use them. I > don't know what the implications are, however, of trying to run the > engine at full power with the whole thing really cold. (I.e. less > than the 140F the thermostat opens at.) Presumably Rotax included a > thermostat for a reason. > > > > And, will an occasional engine runup while descending > > prevent seizure? > > > > > > Yes and no. What you have to do to prevent cold seizure is either: 1) > keep the radiator water circulating, therefore keep the water temp > above 140, at least occasionally, or 2) return to power very > gradually, the same way you would warm the engine on the ground. I > either do very gradual high power descents keeping everything warm or > steep low power descents followed by a gradual increase in RPM > watching the water temp and keeping the RPM below, say 4000. The > latter is very difficult to do when it's really cold. I have had to > slow to near stall to get the engine to warm gradually. Hopefully > Noel or Dave or one of the other northern fliers will reply. They > must do this all the time. > > Guy Buchanan > San Diego, CA > K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade > 100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar I found the best technique is to stay below 100' AGL at all time... makes decent real easy lol. In all honesty, running a thermostat, I have never had an issue with the engine cooling too much on a low power decent from the one time I did go to 8,000. Most of the time I never go above 1,000 unless I am practicing stalls or minimum speed maneuvers. on the decent from 8,000 I just pulled it back to about 3000 - 3500 and pointed the nose downhill with flaps on. A slip here and there to keep speeds under control and you can fall outa the sky pretty darn quick and still keep the water circulating. -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over. hander outer of humorless darwin awards Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220609#220609 ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 01:47:25 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking I don't think you're missing a thing, Rick. In fact, I think I missed something when I installed them. I think the maker of that aftermarket kit went overboard when they decided on the hose clamps...and these are the 1/2" wide jobs to boot. I may just opt for the tiewraps in the future, or at the very most the narrower 1/4" size hose clamps. My web straps are slotted so the hose clamps or tie wraps can go through them and help hold them in place. I guess I should have said earlier that the "4 hose clamps are WAY more than *necessary* to do the job." Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system; also building a new pair of snow skis On Dec 22, 2008, at 4:30 PM, Weiss Richard wrote: > Lynn, > > When I installed my seat pan (at the very end of the build process) > I had already installed four web straps to support the seat from > 'falling' onto the controls. (Each piece of webbing is good for > supporting over a ton.) I opted to use the tie wraps (instead of > hose clamps) figuring they're there just to keep the seat pan from > bouncing up and off the support tubes in case of turbulence. I > don't see that they don't provide any other obvious function. Even > wearing the seat belts provides substantial down force on the seat > to hold it in place. Am I missing something here about the hose > clamps? > > > Rick Weiss > N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS > SkyStar S/N 1 > Port Orange, FL > > > On Dec 22, 2008, at 4:16 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote: > >> >> When I bought my minimally completed kit, it came with a seat >> support kit, which consisted of 2" wide web strapping, and 8 hose >> clamps, and directions for slotting the seat so the clamps could >> be slid through the slots and around the fuselage tubes. I >> installed all 8 at first, then during the first annual, cut the >> number to 4. Big PITA to R & R them, and I feel 4 does the job WAY >> more than the tiewraps could ever hope to. >> >> Lynn Matteson ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 01:52:06 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Kitfox-List: RE: Kitfox-List Digest: 39 Msgs - 12/21/08 Real northern fliers cool with air. Sorry, Guy, you left the door w-i-d-e o-p-e-n : ) Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system; also building a new pair of snow skis do not archive On Dec 22, 2008, at 1:39 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote: > Hopefully Noel or Dave or one of the other northern fliers will > reply. They must do this all the time. > > > Guy Buchanan ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 01:57:19 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Slipping with Flaps From: "akflyer" I would bet alot of dead guys up here that get into a "moose hunter" stall and spin in would disagree. Just take it up, put it into a slip, and keep hauling the stick back (at altitude of course). First time I did an un-coordinated stall in a 172 it taught me a lesson on how fast you find yourself upside down and spinning in. Did it in the 12 and in my avid too just to see what would happen. It can indeed tuck a wing and snap on you. -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over. hander outer of humorless darwin awards Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220614#220614 ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 03:27:51 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Everybody ground loops? From: "Paul Folbrecht" Hello, I'm considering buying either a half share or a whole share in a completed Fox (TD). I have no TD time and while becoming taildragger-proficient is appealing to me, ground-looping one is *not*! I am based at a towered field and, if nothing else, I sure don't want the aggravation of an NTSB investigation and the impact on my insurance. I have about 525 incident-and-accident-free hours now and I'd like to keep it that way (almost all in Cessnas and the Cirrus SR22). So.... assuming I get a GOOD TG endorsement from a GOOD instructor, and GOOD training in the Kitfox, honestly, should I _seriously_ expect to ground-loop it at *some* point? How about this - everybody who's got 50, 100, 200, 500, etc. hours in Kitfoxes while never looping raise your hand! :) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220632#220632 ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 03:31:21 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking From: "Tom Jones" > I am going to repair the fiberglass and thought Id check to see if anyone has dealt with this problem. I dont want to make the fiberglass repair and then just have it crack again in the same place. Ken, I broke my seat during the building. I had the seat sitting in the fuselage and was in there doing something. I put all my 160 pounds on one knee on the center ridge and it popped like a rifle shot. It had a crack clear through about six inches long. I fixed it by laminating a couple layers of fiberglass cloth on the underside. I tested it with the knee treatment after it cured and have not had any more problems. It's probably stronger that new. -------- Tom Jones Classic IV 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp Ellensburg, WA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220634#220634 ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 03:46:01 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Everybody ground loops? From: "Tom Jones" > So.... assuming I get a GOOD TG endorsement from a GOOD instructor, and GOOD training in the Kitfox, honestly, should I _seriously_ expect to ground-loop it at *some* point? > > How about this - everybody who's got 50, 100, 200, 500, etc. hours in Kitfoxes while never looping raise your hand! Paul, I can't raise my hand. I was like you. Everyone kept telling me how difficult the dreaded tail wheel is. I fixated on it so much it became a self fulling prophecy for me. I then did as you plan, I found an old instructor with an old airplane and they both still worked. I got my TW indorcement from him, then got more dual in a kitfox until I felt real comfortable. No more problems, knock on wood. PS, it's not the number of TW hours you have thats important...except to the insurance company...it's the number of takeoffs and landings that hones your skill. -------- Tom Jones Classic IV 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp Ellensburg, WA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220639#220639 ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 04:02:16 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Everybody ground loops? My hand's not up, but how's 1 in 500? Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system; also building a new pair of snow skis do not archive On Dec 22, 2008, at 6:26 PM, Paul Folbrecht wrote: > > > Hello, > > I'm considering buying either a half share or a whole share in a > completed Fox (TD). I have no TD time and while becoming > taildragger-proficient is appealing to me, ground-looping one is > *not*! > > I am based at a towered field and, if nothing else, I sure don't > want the aggravation of an NTSB investigation and the impact on my > insurance. I have about 525 incident-and-accident-free hours now > and I'd like to keep it that way (almost all in Cessnas and the > Cirrus SR22). > > So.... assuming I get a GOOD TG endorsement from a GOOD instructor, > and GOOD training in the Kitfox, honestly, should I _seriously_ > expect to ground-loop it at *some* point? > > How about this - everybody who's got 50, 100, 200, 500, etc. hours > in Kitfoxes while never looping raise your hand! :) > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220632#220632 > > ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 05:13:30 PM PST US From: "Dee Young" Subject: Kitfox-List: Ground loops? I have never flown anything but a tail dragger and I think people spend way to much time worrying about it. Learn to handle the plane on the ground with the tail down then get the tail up and do some high speed taxi runs. If you can't handle it on the ground you will get in serious trouble if you fly it. Dee Young Model II N345DY Do not archive ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 05:23:33 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Everybody ground loops? From: "Paul Folbrecht" Thanks for the replies. I do hear from some locals that the KF is considered a *very* docile taildragger. (But then I read here in another thread the "Two kinds of TG pilots mantra repeated...) I will most likely be going for it... and then maybe even building one on top if it. They're just so darn cute. And practical. P Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220657#220657 ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 06:53:30 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Everybody ground loops? At 03:26 PM 12/22/2008, you wrote: >So.... assuming I get a GOOD TG endorsement from a GOOD instructor, >and GOOD training in the Kitfox, honestly, should I _seriously_ >expect to ground-loop it at *some* point? > >How about this - everybody who's got 50, 100, 200, 500, etc. hours >in Kitfoxes while never looping raise your hand! :) OK, all you guys without insurance, raise your hand. I'm not admitting to ANYTHING. O:-) Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade 100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 07:37:23 PM PST US From: "floran higgins" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Everybody ground loops? I have over 7000 hrs in taildraggers with over 800 hrs in a Kitfox. I never had a ground loop. Floran Higgins Speedster 912ULS Helena, Mt. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 5:01 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Everybody ground loops? > > My hand's not up, but how's 1 in 500? > > Lynn Matteson > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs > Sensenich 62x46 > flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition > system; > also building a new pair of snow skis > do not archive > > > On Dec 22, 2008, at 6:26 PM, Paul Folbrecht wrote: > >> >> >> Hello, >> >> I'm considering buying either a half share or a whole share in a >> completed Fox (TD). I have no TD time and while becoming >> taildragger-proficient is appealing to me, ground-looping one is *not*! >> >> I am based at a towered field and, if nothing else, I sure don't want >> the aggravation of an NTSB investigation and the impact on my insurance. >> I have about 525 incident-and-accident-free hours now and I'd like to >> keep it that way (almost all in Cessnas and the Cirrus SR22). >> >> So.... assuming I get a GOOD TG endorsement from a GOOD instructor, and >> GOOD training in the Kitfox, honestly, should I _seriously_ expect to >> ground-loop it at *some* point? >> >> How about this - everybody who's got 50, 100, 200, 500, etc. hours in >> Kitfoxes while never looping raise your hand! :) >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220632#220632 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 07:37:23 PM PST US From: "Larry Huntley" Subject: Kitfox-List: test =======AVGMAIL-49505CD20000=======-- ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 07:59:39 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Everybody ground loops? From: "akflyer" Guy Buchanan wrote: > At 03:26 PM 12/22/2008, you wrote: > > > So.... assuming I get a GOOD TG endorsement from a GOOD instructor, > > and GOOD training in the Kitfox, honestly, should I _seriously_ > > expect to ground-loop it at *some* point? > > > > How about this - everybody who's got 50, 100, 200, 500, etc. hours > > in Kitfoxes while never looping raise your hand! :) > > > > > > OK, all you guys without insurance, raise your hand. I'm not > admitting to ANYTHING. O:-) > > > Guy Buchanan > San Diego, CA > K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade > 100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar No insurance here... rather spend the money on gas and continue to push the little planes as far as I can (hopefully without breaking over the edge lol) -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over. hander outer of humorless darwin awards Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220670#220670 ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 08:06:58 PM PST US From: patrick reilly Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking Lowell=2C My Mod 3 seat pan has holes in it and on the frame cross members that match up for rivets. You mention using tie wraps to attach pan to fram e. Is that the normal method? I mounted my radiator with your shutters toda y after combining the parts you sent to me to modify the shutters to accomo date my taller radiator. Looks like they will work fine. I purchased the co ntrol cable you recommended. Any progress on the electric trim kit yet? Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rocford=2C IL> From: lcfitt@sbcglobal.net> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com> S ubject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking> Date: Mon l Fitt" > > Ken=2C> > My suggestion would be to scuff sand the cracked edge top and bottom and lay > a couple of layers of fiber glass tape (top and bottom) over the surface near > the edge. The top (whit e) layer is gelcoat and make sure the scuff sanding > removes the gelcoat i n the affected areas. the edge would then be similar to > a foam sandwich w here the original glass and cracks would be like the foam > and really non structural and the layers of glass top and bottom would be > the structural part. Also my opinion is that your repair would be for the > most part to eliminate the noise and give some confidence that the seat will > not crack straight across. Fiber glass structures are not like plexiglass > where a crack will always continue to propagate. Consider also that seat > lockers were common options for small tools etc. These required cutting > large hol es in the seat bottoms which would seriously weaken the structure.> > Regar ding the seat pan failures in the past. I don't think there has ever > been a pan failure in a Model I through IV. The failures came after Skystar > a dded the trim panel in front of the seat and needed to change the leading > edge of the seat from the tube grabbing "C" lip to the gentler curved and > shorter 45=B0 lip to accommodate the trim panel. This is a classic exampl e of > how a seemingly non structural design change to add a bit of eye app eal (and > weight) resulted in a serious safety issue. The failures were no t > structural failures of the pan=2C but would come on a hard landing or s evere > turbulence when the seat would spring down under the pilot's weight and the > forward lip would slip off the bulkhead tube. I am not aware of a seat > failure from structural collapse. Also regarding the old style=2C I know a > guy that has put over a thousand hours on two Model IVs and has never tied > the seat pan to the airframe with the nylon tiewraps. I have s een him in > "turn back" turbulance and tons of off airport landings with n o incidences.> > Lowell Fitt> Cameron Park=2C CA> Model IV-1200 R-912 UL> C urrently focusing on the Left Wing - almost ready to cover=2C fuselage as > well.> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ken Harrison" > To: "Kitfox List" > Sent: Monday =2C December 22=2C 2008 7:11 AM> Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglas s Seat Pan Cracking> > > What is the best way to keep the fiberglass seat f rom cracking? Mine has> very small cracks that are right at the outside edg es both sides=2C basically> half way up the back. It makes a crackling soun d every time I get in. I> have re-enforced the seat with some seat belt mat erial underneath but was> wondering if anyone has a better solution.> > I a m going to repair the fiberglass and thought I=B9d check to see if anyone> has dealt with this problem. I don=B9t want to make the fiberglass repair a nd> then just have it crack again in the same place.> > I=B9ve read about t he seats failing and jamming the controls...always in the> back of my mind. =======================> > > ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 08:25:44 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Everybody ground loops? From: "AKFLYERBOB" I have 3K plus hrs in TD stuff and if it hadn't been for AKFLYER I whould have spudded my brand new KF l on my first flight. To say the least they are rudder unfriendly. Now that I can control it, it is a blast, and I am proud to own one. Well two, am working on a lll that was never finished. If you can fly, you will love the K F. Bob. -------- Bob Wolfe..Soldotna, Alaska KF Mod I and III Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220677#220677 ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 09:24:43 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking Yes, Pat, when I built my 1993 Model IV the standard installation for the seat pan was tiewraps. As I recall I put them about every six inches. I used the ones that are about 9 inches long. I rechecked the manual and it calls for eight in front and nine across the back. Keep in mind that the tiewraps, the manual calls the them zip ties, are to hold the pan down on the tubing supports. The "C" shaped lips keet it off the controls. I plan to use the same method on the IV I am building now. I see no reason not to. As I mentioned, the failures were due to the pan slipping off the forward tube support due to a redesign of the forward pan lip. Also the tiewraps are replaced every annual as the seat pan is removed to inspect linkages beneath it, so no age issues there. Regarding the elevator trim kit. It is still on the back burner pending a completion of a current project. I am within a week of finishing that - I think - then I will get the tooling out and make up the kit parts and try to determine a cost. Maybe the first week in January for the results. Yes, retired folks no longer get weekends and holidays. I will probably spend at least part of Christmas day in the hangar trying to burn some holes in some 4130 tubing or maybe if I am lucky, bending some aluminum into a trim tab. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "patrick reilly" Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 8:06 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking Lowell, My Mod 3 seat pan has holes in it and on the frame cross members that match up for rivets. You mention using tie wraps to attach pan to frame. Is that the normal method? I mounted my radiator with your shutters today after combining the parts you sent to me to modify the shutters to accomodate my taller radiator. Looks like they will work fine. I purchased the control cable you recommended. Any progress on the electric trim kit yet? Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rocford, IL> From: lcfitt@sbcglobal.net> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking> Date: "Lowell Fitt" > > Ken,> > My suggestion would be to scuff sand the cracked edge top and bottom and lay > a couple of layers of fiberglass tape (top and bottom) over the surface near > the edge. The top (white) layer is gelcoat and make sure the scuff sanding > removes the gelcoat in the affected areas. the edge would then be similar to > a foam sandwich where the original glass and cracks would be like the foam > and really non structural and the layers of glass top and bottom would be > the structural part. Also my opinion is that your repair would be for the > most part to eliminate the noise and give some confidence that the seat will > not crack straight across. Fiber glass structures are not like plexiglass > where a crack will always continue to propagate. Consider also that seat > lockers were common options for small tools etc. These required cutting > large holes in the seat bottoms which would seriously weaken the structure.> > Regarding the seat pan failures in the past. I don't think there has ever > been a pan failure in a Model I through IV. The failures came after Skystar > added the trim panel in front of the seat and needed to change the leading > edge of the seat from the tube grabbing "C" lip to the gentler curved and > shorter 45 lip to accommodate the trim panel. This is a classic example of > how a seemingly non structural design change to add a bit of eye appeal (and > weight) resulted in a serious safety issue. The failures were not > structural failures of the pan, but would come on a hard landing or severe > turbulence when the seat would spring down under the pilot's weight and the > forward lip would slip off the bulkhead tube. I am not aware of a seat > failure from structural collapse. Also regarding the old style, I know a > guy that has put over a thousand hours on two Model IVs and has never tied > the seat pan to the airframe with the nylon tiewraps. I have seen him in > "turn back" turbulance and tons of off airport landings with no incidences.> > Lowell Fitt> Cameron Park, CA> Model IV-1200 R-912 UL> Currently focusing on the Left Wing - almost ready to cover, fuselage as > well.> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ken Harrison" > To: "Kitfox List" > Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 7:11 AM> Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking> > > What is the best way to keep the fiberglass seat from cracking? Mine has> very small cracks that are right at the outside edges both sides, basically> half way up the back. It makes a crackling sound every time I get in. I> have re-enforced the seat with some seat belt material underneath but was> wondering if anyone has a better solution.> > I am going to repair the fiberglass and thought Id check to see if anyone> has dealt with this problem. I dont want to make the fiberglass repair and> then just have it crack again in the same place.> > Ive read about the seats failing and jamming the controls...always in the> back of my mind.=======================> > > ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 09:36:39 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Everybody ground loops? From: "wingnut" 100 hours total. 70 in my Model IV. No insurance. No ground loop... yet. -------- Luis Rodriguez Model IV 1200 Rotax 912UL Flying Weekly Laurens, SC (34A) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220682#220682 ________________________________ Message 55 ____________________________________ Time: 09:37:57 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Everybody ground loops? From: "akflyer" AKFLYERBOB wrote: > I have 3K plus hrs in TD stuff and if it hadn't been for > AKFLYER I whould have spudded ( uh you mean teerminated with extreme prejudice) my brand new KF l on > my first flight. > To say the least they are rudder unfriendly. > Now that I can control it, it is a blast, and I am proud to > own one. Well two, am working on a lll that was never finished. > If you can fly, you will love the K F. > Bob. Sorry Bob, had to go for a slight correction there LOL Bob is right, I have never flown a plane quite as fun as his kitfox. -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over. hander outer of humorless darwin awards Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220683#220683 ________________________________ Message 56 ____________________________________ Time: 10:22:24 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: MEK question From: "jlfernan" I used Sherwin Williams 988 self etching primer on the inboard ends of the wing spars to protect the cut ends(bought quickbuild, pre-rigged wings) while I work on everything else. I know MEK will take the primer off easily, but some where I read that it takes a couple of days for the MEk to completely evaporate after it's wiped off. Is this right or am I imagining things? I'm just concerned about the Hysol adhereing to this area when I attach the spar doublers. -------- Jorge Fernandez Supersport Fuselage/Forward Controls http://websites.expercraft.com/jlfernan/ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220686#220686 ________________________________ Message 57 ____________________________________ Time: 10:59:50 PM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Everybody ground loops? We ground looped once. My son was the PIC. We did a perfect landing on asphalt that ended in a 270 degrees spin. Then we found out that we also broke the tailwheel spring. First thought was that the ground loop broke the spring but then it became evident that it was the opposite. The single spring leaf of my Kitfox 3 broke after about 950 landings and without tailwheel ... we did a ground loop. The spring is now replaced by a double leaf one. Cheers, Michel Verheughe Norway Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... flying as a PAX
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