---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 12/26/08: 41 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:03 AM - Re: Skis (Michel Verheughe) 2. 05:18 AM - Re: 582 RPM question. (815TL) 3. 05:42 AM - Re: 582 RPM question. (tc9008@aol.com) 4. 06:19 AM - Tach: Re: 582 RPM question. (aerobatics@aol.com) 5. 06:25 AM - Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License (Bob Brennan) 6. 07:19 AM - Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License (vetdrem) 7. 07:40 AM - Re: 582 RPM question. (Marco Menezes) 8. 07:41 AM - Re: Main Jets on 582 (Marco Menezes) 9. 07:55 AM - Re: Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License (Bob Brennan) 10. 07:58 AM - Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License (Randy Daughenbaugh) 11. 07:59 AM - Re: [!! SPAM] Main Jets on 582 (Guy Buchanan) 12. 07:59 AM - Re: 582 RPM question. (Guy Buchanan) 13. 07:59 AM - Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License (Guy Buchanan) 14. 08:01 AM - Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License (Roger Lee) 15. 08:06 AM - Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License (Tom Jones) 16. 08:08 AM - Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License (Bob Brennan) 17. 08:24 AM - Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License (Bob Brennan) 18. 08:31 AM - Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License (Larry Huntley) 19. 08:34 AM - Re: Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License (Bob Brennan) 20. 08:42 AM - Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License (Bob Brennan) 21. 08:57 AM - Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License (Randy Daughenbaugh) 22. 09:21 AM - Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License (Bob Brennan) 23. 09:24 AM - Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License (Larry Huntley) 24. 09:36 AM - Re: Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License (Lynn Matteson) 25. 09:55 AM - Re: Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License (Bob Brennan) 26. 09:56 AM - Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License-class 2 gambit?? (john taylor) 27. 10:09 AM - Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License-class 2 gambit?? (Bob Brennan) 28. 10:41 AM - Engine Mount Fabrication (Lowell Fitt) 29. 11:18 AM - Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License-class 2 gambit?? (Michael Gibbs) 30. 11:49 AM - Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License-class 2 gambit?? (Bob Brennan) 31. 12:25 PM - Re: Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License (Lynn Matteson) 32. 01:29 PM - Re: Engine Mount Fabrication (ron schick) 33. 02:06 PM - Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking (patrick reilly) 34. 04:32 PM - Re: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking (Lynn Matteson) 35. 06:03 PM - Re: Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License (Weiss Richard) 36. 07:21 PM - Re: Engine Mount Fabrication (Bradley Webb) 37. 07:23 PM - Kitfox-list: List Nazis (Guy Buchanan) 38. 07:44 PM - Re: Kitfox-list: List Nazis (Weiss Richard) 39. 08:14 PM - Re: Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License () 40. 08:14 PM - Re: Kitfox-list: List Nazis () 41. 11:47 PM - Re: Brake Problems (jridgway) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:03:05 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Skis On Dec 25, 2008, at 11:53 AM, akflyer wrote: > The ski bottoms are NOT stepped, they are flat. As far as I understand, the step on a seaplane pontoon is there to ventilate the water aft of it and give less drag. I agree, it doesn't make very much sense in the snow. Cheers, Michel Verheughe Norway Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 ... flying as PAX
________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:18:00 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: 582 RPM question. From: "815TL" Thank you guys. It could be that the tach. is off. Is there a way to test it, and calibrate it. I know that as of October that the plane was flying well, as that is the last time that Larry Huntley flew it. Nothing has really changed motor wise since then, except for repair of the starter. Andrew Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221180#221180 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:42:39 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 582 RPM question. From: tc9008@aol.com I have a grey 582 c box and my static rpm is 6200 which gives me 6800 on take off and climb out. With one person flying 5800 is good crusing. Travis -----Original Message----- From: 815TL Sent: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 7:58 pm Subject: Kitfox-List: 582 RPM question. Just a quick question about 582 RPMs. I ran the engine up today, keeping it lubed up. My instructor and I plan to start flying the first or second weekend of Jan. weather permitting. After warm up, I ran the power up the full throttle for 30 seconds or so. The tach. is labeled on the glass with a green and red arc sticker. It looks like it was hand put on by the last owner. Anyway, red starts about 6200. At full throttle, on the ground, it was making about 5800-5900. The engine ran well, and did not hiccup at all. I know that in cruise it will unload a little, and have a little higher RPM over a static test, but I was just wondering if those RPMs were OK, or off the mark, seeing that the max of the 582 is somewhere around 6800. The setup is a 582 gray head, with dual Bing 54 carbs., C gearbox, (not sure of ratio), and a 3 blade Warp Drive. Running about full rich, as the on EGT was around 1150+. Cool 25*F, at 1700MSL. Does the pitch of the prop make much of a difference in RPM? Andrew Kitfox II, 815TL, Rotax 582C, Warp Drive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221137#221137 , FAQ, ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:19:53 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Tach: Re: 582 RPM question. From: aerobatics@aol.com buy a cheap radio control optical tach then using math from ur gear box ....ps those tach are VERY accurate Cermak is a good brand... Dave ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:25:21 AM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License >From the most recent EAA e-Hotline newsletter: -------------------------------- Question of the Week My medical examination is next month. If I "fail," I know I cannot fly as a sport pilot using my driver's license for medical certification, but is this forever? Could I wait, say six months or one year, and then apply for sport pilot? Answer: The regulation states that you cannot use your driver's license in lieu of an FAA medical certificate if your most recent application for an FAA medical certificate was denied, revoked, suspended or withdrawn by the FAA. There is no time limit on that requirement, so it doesn't matter how long ago that denial, revocation, suspension or withdrawal took place. The last time you applied for an FAA medical certificate, no matter how long ago it was, must have resulted in the regular or special issuance of a valid medical certificate. If that is not the case you are required to re-apply for an FAA medical certificate and have a valid medical issued in order to be able to take advantage of the possibility of using your driver's license in lieu of the medical certificate in the future. -------------------------------- So for us "older" pilots still enjoying the full privileges of a PPL and being honest and diligent about keeping our medical certificate up-to-date; that sounds like if the AME discovers an excluding medical condition during the medical exam the only choices are to correct the condition or stop flying. However if the condition is discovered before the exam we can apply for a Sport Pilot license, or as I understand it simply continue flying on a PPL under Sport Pilot restrictions, without divulging the medical condition. Does that make sense? Or am I reading it wrong? So if I typically fly my Light Sport Kitfox under Sport Pilot restrictions anyway should I actually *avoid* keeping my class 3 medical up to date? Before I get a litany of responses on the unconnectedness of a Light Sport rated aircraft and a Sport Pilot license - that's already been covered here and is not my point. My point is that I thought I could continue flying as a PPL (sometimes I rent a Cessna) as long as I pass my class 3 medical every 2 years, and switch to Sport Pilot if/when age and conditions inevitably catch up with me. But the above quote seems to say that if I do it that way I risk losing the privilege to fly forever if the condition that causes me to fail my medical can't be corrected. However if I do not take a medical, in effect "hiding" a condition from the FAA, I can continue to fly as a Sport Pilot as long as I retain a driver's license. Sounds like the FAA is saying "if you're stupid enough to reveal your condition to an AME then you're too stupid to fly". Or should I shop for an AME that is sympathetic enough to not send off the application to the FAA is there is a chance it would fail, after the fact? Although last time I got my medical I applied online before seeing the AME, and I think that might be the only way of doing it soon. Any AMEs out there got advice on this seeming contradiction in rules? I'm sure it's close to a lot of people on this list. Bob Brennan - N717GB ELSA Repairman, inspection rated 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:19:36 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License From: "vetdrem" I was doing exactly as you are considering doing. I allowed my medical certificate to expire and flew my Taylorcraft and my kitfox (both meet the light sport regulations) as a "private pilot, exercising sport pilot privleges". I could not fly anything that did not meet those requirements, but I didn't need to, anyway. I was considering a trip to Canada, and was going to get a seaplane rating, so I crossed my fingers, and went to the AME for an exam. I passed and there was no problem, but if there had been, you are right, I would have had to correct the condition causing the failure before I could have flown again. You seem to be looking at allowing your medical to expire as HIDING something from the FAA, but you really are not. The rule says that if your state says that you are healthy enough to drive a car, then you are healthy enough to fly under the sport pilot rules. If you have a condition that makes it unsafe for you to drive, then of course, you can not fly. If at a later time you decide that the sport pilot privileges are too restrictive (you want to rent that 152 or you want to fly at night, or something else) you can simply go to the local AME and renew your medical. Actually, right now, I am flying as a Private Pilot, exercising sport pilot privileges, even though I have a valid medical. I am required to wear glasses to be legal to fly, but I don't wear them for any other activity (including driving), so I fly without them, and if asked, I am legal because they are not required for my drivers license. Louie model 3 w/ 912ul and a T-craft Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221188#221188 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:40:32 AM PST US From: Marco Menezes Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 582 RPM question. "Optimal" performance with a 582 is-a matter of personal preference and i nvolves balancing prop pitch, rpms, carb jetting and EGT's. Check out Mike Stratman's articles for great instruction on achieving the balance. http:// www.800-airwolf.com/articles.htm - >From the numbers you gave, it appears the previous owner had "the balance" set where he liked it. Could be different for you. - Prop pitch will most certainly affect rpms, rate of climb, cruise speed and egts. - Marco Menezes N99KX Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch --- On Thu, 12/25/08, 815TL wrote: From: 815TL Subject: Kitfox-List: 582 RPM question. Just a quick question about 582 RPMs. I ran the engine up today, keeping i t lubed up. My instructor and I plan to start flying the first or second wee kend of Jan. weather permitting. After warm up, I ran the power up the full throttle for 30 seconds or so. The tach. is labeled on the glass with a green and red arc sticker. It looks l ike it was hand put on by the last owner. Anyway, red starts about 6200. At f ull throttle, on the ground, it was making about 5800-5900. The engine ran wel l, and did not hiccup at all. I know that in cruise it will unload a little, and have a little higher RPM over a static test, but I was just wondering if those RPMs were OK, or off the mark, seeing that the max of the 582 is somewhere around 6800. The setup is a 582 gray head, with dual Bing 54 carbs., C gearbox, (not sur e of ratio), and a 3 blade Warp Drive. Running about full rich, as the on EGT w as around 1150+. Cool 25*F, at 1700MSL. Does the pitch of the prop make much of a difference in RPM? Andrew Kitfox II, 815TL, Rotax 582C, Warp Drive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221137#221137 =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:41:51 AM PST US From: Marco Menezes Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Main Jets on 582 Jack, - Main jet change on the Bing 54 will mostly affect higher range of rpms. Jet needles affect the mid-range and will require most seasonal tweaking. Agai n, check out Mike Strattman's articles, especially parts 10, 11. He gives t he best explanation around on adjusting carbs to get what you want out of a 582. http://www.800-airwolf.com/articles.htm - Nothing should fall out when you remove float bowl, unless you flip the bow l over. Floats normally stay with the carb body.-Easier to swap main jets with the carbs out, as I recall, but try adjusting or replacing-the jet needles first. That can be easily done with carbs in place. Marco Menezes N99KX Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch --- On Thu, 12/25/08, jridgway wrote: From: jridgway Subject: Kitfox-List: Main Jets on 582 Have a quick question. I am running a EGT of about 1000 with my 165 jets th at we included with the KF3/Rotax 582 I just purchased. The previous owner als o provided a spare set of 160 mail jets. It looks likes from the Rotax documentation that given the TEMP and ALT here this time of year the 160 sh ould work better. KF is a little 'piggy/running rich' now. Question 1) Will going from a 165 to a 160 likely lean the engine out some so I can get a little performance out of it and get closer to a 1100 EGT? Question 2) When I remove the lower bowl what parts will drop out? 2 floats , fuel stabilizer, float arm? Can I just them replace the 165 jets with the 1 60 jets while the carb is still on the aircraft? Will I likely have to tweak t he carbs? This looks like a 1 minute job. Any potential problems/issues? thanks..jack Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221156#221156 =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:55:43 AM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License Thanks for the reply Louie, let me be a little more specific. And tell a story, as older guys love to do ;-) I went through a stressful divorce a few years ago, and have a family history of high blood pressure. Realising the stress of the time was not healthy for me, and also realising that if I didn't control it I might end up choking the sh*t out of someone who desperately needed it (joking of course, sort of), I decided to join a local gym. Partly because it was a healthy alternative and about the same price as the amount of alcohol I was wanting to consume but also offered better opportunity to interact with fit members of the opposite sex. The application to the gym included a blood pressure test; obviously due to the stress it was above their limits, so I was denied the ability to use their equipment to lower my blood pressure. More logical than the FAA situation, but a catch-22 none the less. So I cut out all salt and fat, took aspirin 3 times a day for a week, and went to my doctor to get a certified reading within their limits. Oh, and also met a lovely lady at the gym who just flew over from the UK (where I lived at the time) to visit, although no plans for future commitments. Story finished, I realise that the FAA requirements for blood pressure range could make me fail my examination even though it is hereditary and I have learned how to control it myself, but more importantly it would never restrict my driver's license and hence flying as a sport pilot. My reason for this post is not about my blood pressure, which I know if worst case made me fail my medical I could go on FAA-approved medication and re-take the exam and get a medical. Or dose up on aspirin again. My reason for posting is - what if the AME finds something I can't easily control but would not have affected my ability to fly as a Sport Pilot? I know many older guys (many on this list) who know they have a condition that would not allow them to pass a medical so they made the decision to fly as a Sport Pilot, which BTW I think is a GREAT boon to allow older pilots to fly under certain restrictions rather than as it was in the past. My question is that it does not seem logical, or fair, or encouraging honesty on the part of the pilot; that if the uncorrectable condition is discovered as a rejection of a medical certificate then the pilot can never fly again, whereas if it is discovered as part of a routine medical then the pilot can convert to lower privileges himself. It sounds like the FAA is saying "what we don't know won't hurt us, only you; but if we do know then we can't let you even make that decision". Or am I missing something? It discourages guys like me from maintaining their medical certificate as a means of knowing that nothing has changed since my last physical, and in doing so discourages safety. It's tough enough to get a guy to go to the doctor at all! Bob Brennan - N717GB ELSA Repairman, inspection rated 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of vetdrem Sent: 26 December 2008 10:19 am Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License I was doing exactly as you are considering doing. I allowed my medical certificate to expire and flew my Taylorcraft and my kitfox (both meet the light sport regulations) as a "private pilot, exercising sport pilot privleges". I could not fly anything that did not meet those requirements, but I didn't need to, anyway. I was considering a trip to Canada, and was going to get a seaplane rating, so I crossed my fingers, and went to the AME for an exam. I passed and there was no problem, but if there had been, you are right, I would have had to correct the condition causing the failure before I could have flown again. You seem to be looking at allowing your medical to expire as HIDING something from the FAA, but you really are not. The rule says that if your state says that you are healthy enough to drive a car, then you are healthy enough to fly under the sport pilot rules. If you have a condition that makes it unsafe for you to drive, then of course, you can not fly. If at a later time you decide that the sport pilot privileges are too restrictive (you want to rent that 152 or you want to fly at night, or something else) you can simply go to the local AME and renew your medical. Actually, right now, I am flying as a Private Pilot, exercising sport pilot privileges, even though I have a valid medical. I am required to wear glasses to be legal to fly, but I don't wear them for any other activity (including driving), so I fly without them, and if asked, I am legal because they are not required for my drivers license. Louie model 3 w/ 912ul and a T-craft Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221188#221188 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:58:13 AM PST US From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License Bob, You don't have to "apply" for a sport pilot license. You just fly as a sport pilot with a private license. Randy Private flying last 4 years as a sport pilot.. _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 7:25 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License >From the most recent EAA e-Hotline newsletter: -------------------------------- Question of the Week My medical examination is next month. If I "fail," I know I cannot fly as a sport pilot using my driver's license for medical certification, but is this forever? Could I wait, say six months or one year, and then apply for sport pilot? Answer: The regulation states that you cannot use your driver's license in lieu of an FAA medical certificate if your most recent application for an FAA medical certificate was denied, revoked, suspended or withdrawn by the FAA. There is no time limit on that requirement, so it doesn't matter how long ago that denial, revocation, suspension or withdrawal took place. The last time you applied for an FAA medical certificate, no matter how long ago it was, must have resulted in the regular or special issuance of a valid medical certificate. If that is not the case you are required to re-apply for an FAA medical certificate and have a valid medical issued in order to be able to take advantage of the possibility of using your driver's license in lieu of the medical certificate in the future. -------------------------------- So for us "older" pilots still enjoying the full privileges of a PPL and being honest and diligent about keeping our medical certificate up-to-date; that sounds like if the AME discovers an excluding medical condition during the medical exam the only choices are to correct the condition or stop flying. However if the condition is discovered before the exam we can apply for a Sport Pilot license, or as I understand it simply continue flying on a PPL under Sport Pilot restrictions, without divulging the medical condition. Does that make sense? Or am I reading it wrong? So if I typically fly my Light Sport Kitfox under Sport Pilot restrictions anyway should I actually *avoid* keeping my class 3 medical up to date? Before I get a litany of responses on the unconnectedness of a Light Sport rated aircraft and a Sport Pilot license - that's already been covered here and is not my point. My point is that I thought I could continue flying as a PPL (sometimes I rent a Cessna) as long as I pass my class 3 medical every 2 years, and switch to Sport Pilot if/when age and conditions inevitably catch up with me. But the above quote seems to say that if I do it that way I risk losing the privilege to fly forever if the condition that causes me to fail my medical can't be corrected. However if I do not take a medical, in effect "hiding" a condition from the FAA, I can continue to fly as a Sport Pilot as long as I retain a driver's license. Sounds like the FAA is saying "if you're stupid enough to reveal your condition to an AME then you're too stupid to fly". Or should I shop for an AME that is sympathetic enough to not send off the application to the FAA is there is a chance it would fail, after the fact? Although last time I got my medical I applied online before seeing the AME, and I think that might be the only way of doing it soon. Any AMEs out there got advice on this seeming contradiction in rules? I'm sure it's close to a lot of people on this list. Bob Brennan - N717GB ELSA Repairman, inspection rated 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:59:14 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Kitfox-List: Main Jets on 582 At 08:25 PM 12/25/2008, you wrote: >Question 2) When I remove the lower bowl what parts will drop out? 2 >floats, fuel stabilizer, float arm? Can I just them replace the 165 >jets with the 160 jets while the carb is still on the aircraft? Will >I likely have to tweak the carbs? This looks like a 1 minute job. >Any potential problems/issues? Jack, I can't answer your first question, (yes I know it will lean the engine, but how much?) but I can definitely say you can swap mains on the engine. The only loose parts are the bowl, two floats, and the little cylindrical filter over the jet housing. The only fiddly thing is that filter which you want to make sure gets on straight and doesn't get crushed. Not a big problem, just a little fiddly. (Obviously you want to make sure you've got a good bowl gasket before you put it back on.) Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade 100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:59:15 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: 582 RPM question. At 04:58 PM 12/25/2008, you wrote: >I know that in cruise it will unload a little, and have a little >higher RPM over a static test, but I was just wondering if those >RPMs were OK, or off the mark, seeing that the max of the 582 is >somewhere around 6800. Andrew, As the other members already said, the first step is to check your RPM with an optical tach. There have been several instances of analog tachs being off. The optical tachs are made for RC aircraft. Second, I feel you want to run a 582 at as high an RPM as you can, since the power band is narrow relative to common 4-cycle aircraft engines. I set mine up to run 6800 full throttle level flight at 4500'. This results in about 6200 static. Unfortunately you have to iterate a bit if you have an adjustable prop. And yes, the prop pitch controls the RPM directly. Being as close as you are I'd make changes in 1/2 degree increments. Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade 100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:59:15 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License At 06:24 AM 12/26/2008, you wrote: >Sounds like the FAA is saying "if you're stupid enough to reveal >your condition to an AME then you're too stupid to fly". Or should I >shop for an AME that is sympathetic enough to not send off the >application to the FAA is there is a chance it would fail, after the >fact? Although last time I got my medical I applied online before >seeing the AME, and I think that might be the only way of doing it soon. Bob, From all I've read over the last couple of years you've got it completely right, and that is one of the most severe criticisms the Sport Pilot regulations have had to endure. I don't think it's as onerous as it sounds, since I never cease to be amazed at the medical conditions people overcome to get their Class 3 back. And all you have to do is get it back once to revert to Sport Pilot licensing. I suspect that what's going to happen is the AMEs will figure out how to "pre-test" people who request it. I do this with my cars. For a little more money my smog station pre-tests the car, and if it looks like it's going to fail excessively they will hand it back to me without running the official smog test. That way I don't get labeled a "gross-polluter" and have to jump through a bunch of hoops to get the car smogged. Right now AMEs, once they initiate the medical review process, must follow through with the FAA, there's no stopping a failing review. What I don't know is what the FAA has tasked them with, ethically, with regards to the new Sport Pilot license. Are they prohibited from giving a physical exam that covers the Class 3, but is not FAA sanctioned? (Of course, most of the Class 3 physical exam is provided by the examinee. You fill out the paperwork and certify it. If you know you're going to write something suspect you're going to want to first pose a hypothetical question to the AME before you fill out the paperwork. If the answer comes back negative, I guess you're a Sport Pilot.) Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade 100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:01:37 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License From: "Roger Lee" Hi Bob, You are right in your statements. One way some pilots check to see if they will fail the flight medical is to take advantage of your personal medical insurance free physical by your personal doctor. Most insurance companies offer one free physical per year for you and your wife. Use it. If you pass that one ok then you can go get your PPL medical. If you know you can't pass then don't get the PPL medical and start flying LSA. It's not a perfect system, but is all we have. You are right that if you lose your PPL medical then you would have to get it back before going to the LSA license. Once we get past 21 years of age it's all down hill. [Crying or Very sad] -------- Roger Lee Tucson, Az. Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated Rotax Service Center 520-574-1080 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221201#221201 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:06:58 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License From: "Tom Jones" > Sounds like the FAA is saying "if you're stupid enough to reveal your condition to an AME then you're too stupid to fly". Yes it sounds like that is what they are saying. One explanation for that wording in the sport pilot rules is that the FAA realizes it would be contradictory to deny pilot privileges with one hand...a failed medical...and give them back with the other...sport pilot rules. If you go ahead and let your medical lapse you can continue to fly under sport pilot rules and the FAA is off the hook because they have not denied your medical and your drivers license fulfills the physical requirements to fly under sport pilot rules. I would agree that someone who thinks they may fail an FAA medical, takes that medical even though they fly LSA eligible airplanes only, and has no compelling need to maintain a medical, is probably to stupid to be allowed to fly. -------- Tom Jones Classic IV 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp Ellensburg, WA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221207#221207 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:08:27 AM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License Randy, Thanks for your response. I realise that as a PPL I do not need to apply to fly as a Sport Pilot, all I need is my PPL, a valid driver's license, and to stay within the restrictions of the Sport Pilot privilege. But my point was that it seems that if I discover I can no longer get a class 3 medical by failing that medical then the choice to fly as a Sport Pilot is no longer available to me. Ever. As long as the condition that denied me the medical persists. Whereas pilots who chose to stop getting a medical, and in effect "hide" the condition from the FAA, can continue to fly. Would you mind elaborating your own reason for flying as "Private flying last 4 years as a sport pilot.."? I assume you chose to stop applying for a medical rather than being denied? bob _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Daughenbaugh Sent: 26 December 2008 10:57 am Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License Bob, You don't have to "apply" for a sport pilot license. You just fly as a sport pilot with a private license. Randy Private flying last 4 years as a sport pilot.. _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 7:25 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License >From the most recent EAA e-Hotline newsletter: -------------------------------- Question of the Week My medical examination is next month. If I "fail," I know I cannot fly as a sport pilot using my driver's license for medical certification, but is this forever? Could I wait, say six months or one year, and then apply for sport pilot? Answer: The regulation states that you cannot use your driver's license in lieu of an FAA medical certificate if your most recent application for an FAA medical certificate was denied, revoked, suspended or withdrawn by the FAA. There is no time limit on that requirement, so it doesn't matter how long ago that denial, revocation, suspension or withdrawal took place. The last time you applied for an FAA medical certificate, no matter how long ago it was, must have resulted in the regular or special issuance of a valid medical certificate. If that is not the case you are required to re-apply for an FAA medical certificate and have a valid medical issued in order to be able to take advantage of the possibility of using your driver's license in lieu of the medical certificate in the future. -------------------------------- So for us "older" pilots still enjoying the full privileges of a PPL and being honest and diligent about keeping our medical certificate up-to-date; that sounds like if the AME discovers an excluding medical condition during the medical exam the only choices are to correct the condition or stop flying. However if the condition is discovered before the exam we can apply for a Sport Pilot license, or as I understand it simply continue flying on a PPL under Sport Pilot restrictions, without divulging the medical condition. Does that make sense? Or am I reading it wrong? So if I typically fly my Light Sport Kitfox under Sport Pilot restrictions anyway should I actually *avoid* keeping my class 3 medical up to date? Before I get a litany of responses on the unconnectedness of a Light Sport rated aircraft and a Sport Pilot license - that's already been covered here and is not my point. My point is that I thought I could continue flying as a PPL (sometimes I rent a Cessna) as long as I pass my class 3 medical every 2 years, and switch to Sport Pilot if/when age and conditions inevitably catch up with me. But the above quote seems to say that if I do it that way I risk losing the privilege to fly forever if the condition that causes me to fail my medical can't be corrected. However if I do not take a medical, in effect "hiding" a condition from the FAA, I can continue to fly as a Sport Pilot as long as I retain a driver's license. Sounds like the FAA is saying "if you're stupid enough to reveal your condition to an AME then you're too stupid to fly". Or should I shop for an AME that is sympathetic enough to not send off the application to the FAA is there is a chance it would fail, after the fact? Although last time I got my medical I applied online before seeing the AME, and I think that might be the only way of doing it soon. Any AMEs out there got advice on this seeming contradiction in rules? I'm sure it's close to a lot of people on this list. Bob Brennan - N717GB ELSA Repairman, inspection rated 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts! List Contribution Web Site: --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you for your generous support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. - The Kitfox-List Email Forum - --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:24:37 AM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License Guy, I was *very* lucky to get an understanding AME who was a pilot himself when I renewed my medical after many years of being in the UK. The new online application had many questions, and being the honest (and hence potentially stupid) guy that I am it asked if I *ever* had any debilitating diseases. I had a severe case of CFIDS (Chronic Fatigue) more than 20 years ago but have been in complete remission ever since, but I ticked "yes". The AME advised me that it might trigger a rejection and used his magical editing privileges to correct it to a "no" online at FAA.org, something I was not allowed to undo. At the time I was not aware of the dire consequences of such honesty and even now I get an 8 on the 1-10 Sphincter Scale when I think I might have lost the privilege of being a pilot forever for something that was cured of twenty years ago. The CFIDS, not the stupidity, obviously... ;-o Just thought the list should be *very* aware of this particular "hoop". It's one of those fiery ones. Bob Brennan - N717GB ELSA Repairman, inspection rated 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan Sent: 26 December 2008 10:58 am Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License At 06:24 AM 12/26/2008, you wrote: Sounds like the FAA is saying "if you're stupid enough to reveal your condition to an AME then you're too stupid to fly". Or should I shop for an AME that is sympathetic enough to not send off the application to the FAA is there is a chance it would fail, after the fact? Although last time I got my medical I applied online before seeing the AME, and I think that might be the only way of doing it soon. Bob, From all I've read over the last couple of years you've got it completely right, and that is one of the most severe criticisms the Sport Pilot regulations have had to endure. I don't think it's as onerous as it sounds, since I never cease to be amazed at the medical conditions people overcome to get their Class 3 back. And all you have to do is get it back once to revert to Sport Pilot licensing. I suspect that what's going to happen is the AMEs will figure out how to "pre-test" people who request it. I do this with my cars. For a little more money my smog station pre-tests the car, and if it looks like it's going to fail excessively they will hand it back to me without running the official smog test. That way I don't get labeled a "gross-polluter" and have to jump through a bunch of hoops to get the car smogged. Right now AMEs, once they initiate the medical review process, must follow through with the FAA, there's no stopping a failing review. What I don't know is what the FAA has tasked them with, ethically, with regards to the new Sport Pilot license. Are they prohibited from giving a physical exam that covers the Class 3, but is not FAA sanctioned? (Of course, most of the Class 3 physical exam is provided by the examinee. You fill out the paperwork and certify it. If you know you're going to write something suspect you're going to want to first pose a hypothetical question to the AME before you fill out the paperwork. If the answer comes back negative, I guess you're a Sport Pilot.) Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade 100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:31:41 AM PST US From: "Larry Huntley" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License Bob, I flew for a couple of years as a SP because I was flying a Fox and a Champ. A friend dropped off his Pacer and asked me to exercise it occasionally,so I went for a medical again.My Tripacer will be flying again after a 3 yr rebuild,so I will maintain PP. Otherwise I would fly as SP anyway ,so why bother. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Brennan To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 11:07 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License Randy, Thanks for your response. I realise that as a PPL I do not need to apply to fly as a Sport Pilot, all I need is my PPL, a valid driver's license, and to stay within the restrictions of the Sport Pilot privilege. But my point was that it seems that if I discover I can no longer get a class 3 medical by failing that medical then the choice to fly as a Sport Pilot is no longer available to me. Ever. As long as the condition that denied me the medical persists. Whereas pilots who chose to stop getting a medical, and in effect "hide" the condition from the FAA, can continue to fly. Would you mind elaborating your own reason for flying as "Private flying last 4 years as a sport pilot.."? I assume you chose to stop applying for a medical rather than being denied? bob ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Daughenbaugh Sent: 26 December 2008 10:57 am To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License Bob, You don't have to "apply" for a sport pilot license. You just fly as a sport pilot with a private license. Randy Private flying last 4 years as a sport pilot.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 7:25 AM To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Subject: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License From the most recent EAA e-Hotline newsletter: -------------------------------- Question of the Week My medical examination is next month. If I "fail," I know I cannot fly as a sport pilot using my driver's license for medical certification, but is this forever? Could I wait, say six months or one year, and then apply for sport pilot? Answer: The regulation states that you cannot use your driver's license in lieu of an FAA medical certificate if your most recent application for an FAA medical certificate was denied, revoked, suspended or withdrawn by the FAA. There is no time limit on that requirement, so it doesn't matter how long ago that denial, revocation, suspension or withdrawal took place. The last time you applied for an FAA medical certificate, no matter how long ago it was, must have resulted in the regular or special issuance of a valid medical certificate. If that is not the case you are required to re-apply for an FAA medical certificate and have a valid medical issued in order to be able to take advantage of the possibility of using your driver's license in lieu of the medical certificate in the future. -------------------------------- So for us "older" pilots still enjoying the full privileges of a PPL and being honest and diligent about keeping our medical certificate up-to-date; that sounds like if the AME discovers an excluding medical condition during the medical exam the only choices are to correct the condition or stop flying. However if the condition is discovered before the exam we can apply for a Sport Pilot license, or as I understand it simply continue flying on a PPL under Sport Pilot restrictions, without divulging the medical condition. Does that make sense? Or am I reading it wrong? So if I typically fly my Light Sport Kitfox under Sport Pilot restrictions anyway should I actually *avoid* keeping my class 3 medical up to date? Before I get a litany of responses on the unconnectedness of a Light Sport rated aircraft and a Sport Pilot license - that's already been covered here and is not my point. My point is that I thought I could continue flying as a PPL (sometimes I rent a Cessna) as long as I pass my class 3 medical every 2 years, and switch to Sport Pilot if/when age and conditions inevitably catch up with me. But the above quote seems to say that if I do it that way I risk losing the privilege to fly forever if the condition that causes me to fail my medical can't be corrected. However if I do not take a medical, in effect "hiding" a condition from the FAA, I can continue to fly as a Sport Pilot as long as I retain a driver's license. Sounds like the FAA is saying "if you're stupid enough to reveal your condition to an AME then you're too stupid to fly". Or should I shop for an AME that is sympathetic enough to not send off the application to the FAA is there is a chance it would fail, after the fact? Although last time I got my medical I applied online before seeing the AME, and I think that might be the only way of doing it soon. Any AMEs out there got advice on this seeming contradiction in rules? I'm sure it's close to a lot of people on this list. Bob Brennan - N717GB ELSA Repairman, inspection rated 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click onthis year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts!List Contribution Web Site:--> http://www.matronics.com/contributionThank you for your generous support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. - The Kitfox-List Email Forum ---> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kit fox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://fo rums.matronics.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 12/25/2008 9:40 AM ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:34:51 AM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License Roger, I need to find a personal physician who knows the complete requirements of a class 3 airman's medical certificate then, and in my experience those are AMEs in the first place. But I do appreciate your point. And as Guy pointed out - does the FAA allow an AME to do a "pre-test"? I was extremely lucky in the UK to have a CFI who gave me a pre-GFT (General Flight Test) before a chargeable one. He said if I pass the pre-test I wouldn't need to redo it. I had several pre-tests... but was only charged once. BTW what is the point of the drop-your-shorts and turn-you-head-and-cough part of the class 3 exam?? If I didn't have 'em I wouldn't have become a pilot in the first place! And is a full rectal exam (optional I was told, I opted NOT!) really necessary to be a pilot? Again, it's obvious you have to have one to be one... Bob Brennan - N717GB ELSA Repairman, inspection rated 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Lee Sent: 26 December 2008 11:01 am Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License Hi Bob, You are right in your statements. One way some pilots check to see if they will fail the flight medical is to take advantage of your personal medical insurance free physical by your personal doctor. Most insurance companies offer one free physical per year for you and your wife. Use it. If you pass that one ok then you can go get your PPL medical. If you know you can't pass then don't get the PPL medical and start flying LSA. It's not a perfect system, but is all we have. You are right that if you lose your PPL medical then you would have to get it back before going to the LSA license. Once we get past 21 years of age it's all down hill. [Crying or Very sad] -------- Roger Lee Tucson, Az. Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated Rotax Service Center 520-574-1080 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221201#221201 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:42:13 AM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License Larry, "why bother" was something I always thought was an available option, but it seems that if you, or any PPL-rated pilot, decides to re-validate the privileges with a class 3 medical; not only risks losing the privileges of his PPL but also his Sport Pilot privileges and the ability to fly at all, possibly forever. That bothers me, but now that I am aware of it I will be careful. Just posting so others are also aware, or can offer a more logical alternative. Bob Brennan - N717GB ELSA Repairman, inspection rated 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Huntley Sent: 26 December 2008 11:31 am Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License Bob, I flew for a couple of years as a SP because I was flying a Fox and a Champ. A friend dropped off his Pacer and asked me to exercise it occasionally,so I went for a medical again.My Tripacer will be flying again after a 3 yr rebuild,so I will maintain PP. Otherwise I would fly as SP anyway ,so why bother. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Brennan Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 11:07 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License Randy, Thanks for your response. I realise that as a PPL I do not need to apply to fly as a Sport Pilot, all I need is my PPL, a valid driver's license, and to stay within the restrictions of the Sport Pilot privilege. But my point was that it seems that if I discover I can no longer get a class 3 medical by failing that medical then the choice to fly as a Sport Pilot is no longer available to me. Ever. As long as the condition that denied me the medical persists. Whereas pilots who chose to stop getting a medical, and in effect "hide" the condition from the FAA, can continue to fly. Would you mind elaborating your own reason for flying as "Private flying last 4 years as a sport pilot.."? I assume you chose to stop applying for a medical rather than being denied? bob _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Daughenbaugh Sent: 26 December 2008 10:57 am Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License Bob, You don't have to "apply" for a sport pilot license. You just fly as a sport pilot with a private license. Randy Private flying last 4 years as a sport pilot.. _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 7:25 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License >From the most recent EAA e-Hotline newsletter: -------------------------------- Question of the Week My medical examination is next month. If I "fail," I know I cannot fly as a sport pilot using my driver's license for medical certification, but is this forever? Could I wait, say six months or one year, and then apply for sport pilot? Answer: The regulation states that you cannot use your driver's license in lieu of an FAA medical certificate if your most recent application for an FAA medical certificate was denied, revoked, suspended or withdrawn by the FAA. There is no time limit on that requirement, so it doesn't matter how long ago that denial, revocation, suspension or withdrawal took place. The last time you applied for an FAA medical certificate, no matter how long ago it was, must have resulted in the regular or special issuance of a valid medical certificate. If that is not the case you are required to re-apply for an FAA medical certificate and have a valid medical issued in order to be able to take advantage of the possibility of using your driver's license in lieu of the medical certificate in the future. -------------------------------- So for us "older" pilots still enjoying the full privileges of a PPL and being honest and diligent about keeping our medical certificate up-to-date; that sounds like if the AME discovers an excluding medical condition during the medical exam the only choices are to correct the condition or stop flying. However if the condition is discovered before the exam we can apply for a Sport Pilot license, or as I understand it simply continue flying on a PPL under Sport Pilot restrictions, without divulging the medical condition. Does that make sense? Or am I reading it wrong? So if I typically fly my Light Sport Kitfox under Sport Pilot restrictions anyway should I actually *avoid* keeping my class 3 medical up to date? Before I get a litany of responses on the unconnectedness of a Light Sport rated aircraft and a Sport Pilot license - that's already been covered here and is not my point. My point is that I thought I could continue flying as a PPL (sometimes I rent a Cessna) as long as I pass my class 3 medical every 2 years, and switch to Sport Pilot if/when age and conditions inevitably catch up with me. But the above quote seems to say that if I do it that way I risk losing the privilege to fly forever if the condition that causes me to fail my medical can't be corrected. However if I do not take a medical, in effect "hiding" a condition from the FAA, I can continue to fly as a Sport Pilot as long as I retain a driver's license. Sounds like the FAA is saying "if you're stupid enough to reveal your condition to an AME then you're too stupid to fly". Or should I shop for an AME that is sympathetic enough to not send off the application to the FAA is there is a chance it would fail, after the fact? Although last time I got my medical I applied online before seeing the AME, and I think that might be the only way of doing it soon. Any AMEs out there got advice on this seeming contradiction in rules? I'm sure it's close to a lot of people on this list. Bob Brennan - N717GB ELSA Repairman, inspection rated 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts! List Contribution Web Site: --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you for your generous support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. - The Kitfox-List Email Forum - --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-Li st">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matron ics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http ://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com _____ - 270.10.0/1864 - Release Date: 12/25/2008 9:40 AM ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:57:35 AM PST US From: "Randy Daughenbaugh" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License Bob, I built my series 5 (series 7 firewall foreward) light and assigned it a weight of 1320 so it would comply with the sport pilot regs. I see no reason to keep my private active so I simply save the expense of the medical. I think I could pass it now, but in a year? 5 years? I agree. It seems like a dumb situation. As someone said, if you are dumb enough to go for a physical you can't pass, maybe you shouldn't be flying.. But, I think I have put myself into trying to rationalize the rule. Maybe I am the dumb one. Thanks for the CFIDS story. I would not have thought of that. Randy _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 9:08 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License Randy, Thanks for your response. I realise that as a PPL I do not need to apply to fly as a Sport Pilot, all I need is my PPL, a valid driver's license, and to stay within the restrictions of the Sport Pilot privilege. But my point was that it seems that if I discover I can no longer get a class 3 medical by failing that medical then the choice to fly as a Sport Pilot is no longer available to me. Ever. As long as the condition that denied me the medical persists. Whereas pilots who chose to stop getting a medical, and in effect "hide" the condition from the FAA, can continue to fly. Would you mind elaborating your own reason for flying as "Private flying last 4 years as a sport pilot.."? I assume you chose to stop applying for a medical rather than being denied? bob _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Daughenbaugh Sent: 26 December 2008 10:57 am Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License Bob, You don't have to "apply" for a sport pilot license. You just fly as a sport pilot with a private license. Randy Private flying last 4 years as a sport pilot.. _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 7:25 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License >From the most recent EAA e-Hotline newsletter: -------------------------------- Question of the Week My medical examination is next month. If I "fail," I know I cannot fly as a sport pilot using my driver's license for medical certification, but is this forever? Could I wait, say six months or one year, and then apply for sport pilot? Answer: The regulation states that you cannot use your driver's license in lieu of an FAA medical certificate if your most recent application for an FAA medical certificate was denied, revoked, suspended or withdrawn by the FAA. There is no time limit on that requirement, so it doesn't matter how long ago that denial, revocation, suspension or withdrawal took place. The last time you applied for an FAA medical certificate, no matter how long ago it was, must have resulted in the regular or special issuance of a valid medical certificate. If that is not the case you are required to re-apply for an FAA medical certificate and have a valid medical issued in order to be able to take advantage of the possibility of using your driver's license in lieu of the medical certificate in the future. -------------------------------- So for us "older" pilots still enjoying the full privileges of a PPL and being honest and diligent about keeping our medical certificate up-to-date; that sounds like if the AME discovers an excluding medical condition during the medical exam the only choices are to correct the condition or stop flying. However if the condition is discovered before the exam we can apply for a Sport Pilot license, or as I understand it simply continue flying on a PPL under Sport Pilot restrictions, without divulging the medical condition. Does that make sense? Or am I reading it wrong? So if I typically fly my Light Sport Kitfox under Sport Pilot restrictions anyway should I actually *avoid* keeping my class 3 medical up to date? Before I get a litany of responses on the unconnectedness of a Light Sport rated aircraft and a Sport Pilot license - that's already been covered here and is not my point. My point is that I thought I could continue flying as a PPL (sometimes I rent a Cessna) as long as I pass my class 3 medical every 2 years, and switch to Sport Pilot if/when age and conditions inevitably catch up with me. But the above quote seems to say that if I do it that way I risk losing the privilege to fly forever if the condition that causes me to fail my medical can't be corrected. However if I do not take a medical, in effect "hiding" a condition from the FAA, I can continue to fly as a Sport Pilot as long as I retain a driver's license. Sounds like the FAA is saying "if you're stupid enough to reveal your condition to an AME then you're too stupid to fly". Or should I shop for an AME that is sympathetic enough to not send off the application to the FAA is there is a chance it would fail, after the fact? Although last time I got my medical I applied online before seeing the AME, and I think that might be the only way of doing it soon. Any AMEs out there got advice on this seeming contradiction in rules? I'm sure it's close to a lot of people on this list. Bob Brennan - N717GB ELSA Repairman, inspection rated 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) <>November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on <>this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts! <>List Contribution Web Site: <>--> http://www.matronics.com/contribution <>Thank you for your generous support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. - The Kitfox-List Email Forum - <>--> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:21:55 AM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License Randy, I am not dumb enough < ;-) > to take a medical that I cannot pass, but it's the things you didn't think of that get you in the butt. Another story, sad but true, of a former pilot I knew who was banned from flying because he checked "yes" on the "have you ever blacked out?" box on the medical. According to him he had broken his prize meerschaum pipe one day and fixed it with a bit of epoxy. He smoked it too soon, inhaled bad fumes, blacked out and was taken to the emergency room and given a clean bill of health. Yes he may have been dumb for smoking epoxy fumes and dumber still for admitting it on an FAA form, but the dumbest assumption was that the FAA would disregard his dumbness in either situation. Last I heard he was still fighting to get his license back after 4 years of failed attempts. Maybe it is better he was not allowed to fly, being triple-dumb, but hey we all can be dumb sometimes! bob _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Daughenbaugh Sent: 26 December 2008 11:56 am Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License Bob, I built my series 5 (series 7 firewall foreward) light and assigned it a weight of 1320 so it would comply with the sport pilot regs. I see no reason to keep my private active so I simply save the expense of the medical. I think I could pass it now, but in a year? 5 years? I agree. It seems like a dumb situation. As someone said, if you are dumb enough to go for a physical you can't pass, maybe you shouldn't be flying.. But, I think I have put myself into trying to rationalize the rule. Maybe I am the dumb one. Thanks for the CFIDS story. I would not have thought of that. Randy _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 9:08 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License Randy, Thanks for your response. I realise that as a PPL I do not need to apply to fly as a Sport Pilot, all I need is my PPL, a valid driver's license, and to stay within the restrictions of the Sport Pilot privilege. But my point was that it seems that if I discover I can no longer get a class 3 medical by failing that medical then the choice to fly as a Sport Pilot is no longer available to me. Ever. As long as the condition that denied me the medical persists. Whereas pilots who chose to stop getting a medical, and in effect "hide" the condition from the FAA, can continue to fly. Would you mind elaborating your own reason for flying as "Private flying last 4 years as a sport pilot.."? I assume you chose to stop applying for a medical rather than being denied? bob _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Daughenbaugh Sent: 26 December 2008 10:57 am Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License Bob, You don't have to "apply" for a sport pilot license. You just fly as a sport pilot with a private license. Randy Private flying last 4 years as a sport pilot.. _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 7:25 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License >From the most recent EAA e-Hotline newsletter: -------------------------------- Question of the Week My medical examination is next month. If I "fail," I know I cannot fly as a sport pilot using my driver's license for medical certification, but is this forever? Could I wait, say six months or one year, and then apply for sport pilot? Answer: The regulation states that you cannot use your driver's license in lieu of an FAA medical certificate if your most recent application for an FAA medical certificate was denied, revoked, suspended or withdrawn by the FAA. There is no time limit on that requirement, so it doesn't matter how long ago that denial, revocation, suspension or withdrawal took place. The last time you applied for an FAA medical certificate, no matter how long ago it was, must have resulted in the regular or special issuance of a valid medical certificate. If that is not the case you are required to re-apply for an FAA medical certificate and have a valid medical issued in order to be able to take advantage of the possibility of using your driver's license in lieu of the medical certificate in the future. -------------------------------- So for us "older" pilots still enjoying the full privileges of a PPL and being honest and diligent about keeping our medical certificate up-to-date; that sounds like if the AME discovers an excluding medical condition during the medical exam the only choices are to correct the condition or stop flying. However if the condition is discovered before the exam we can apply for a Sport Pilot license, or as I understand it simply continue flying on a PPL under Sport Pilot restrictions, without divulging the medical condition. Does that make sense? Or am I reading it wrong? So if I typically fly my Light Sport Kitfox under Sport Pilot restrictions anyway should I actually *avoid* keeping my class 3 medical up to date? Before I get a litany of responses on the unconnectedness of a Light Sport rated aircraft and a Sport Pilot license - that's already been covered here and is not my point. My point is that I thought I could continue flying as a PPL (sometimes I rent a Cessna) as long as I pass my class 3 medical every 2 years, and switch to Sport Pilot if/when age and conditions inevitably catch up with me. But the above quote seems to say that if I do it that way I risk losing the privilege to fly forever if the condition that causes me to fail my medical can't be corrected. However if I do not take a medical, in effect "hiding" a condition from the FAA, I can continue to fly as a Sport Pilot as long as I retain a driver's license. Sounds like the FAA is saying "if you're stupid enough to reveal your condition to an AME then you're too stupid to fly". Or should I shop for an AME that is sympathetic enough to not send off the application to the FAA is there is a chance it would fail, after the fact? Although last time I got my medical I applied online before seeing the AME, and I think that might be the only way of doing it soon. Any AMEs out there got advice on this seeming contradiction in rules? I'm sure it's close to a lot of people on this list. Bob Brennan - N717GB ELSA Repairman, inspection rated 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) <>November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on <>this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts! <>List Contribution Web Site: <>--> http://www.matronics.com/contribution <>Thank you for your generous support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. - The Kitfox-List Email Forum - <>--> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts! List Contribution Web Site: --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you for your generous support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. - The Kitfox-List Email Forum - --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 09:24:47 AM PST US From: "Larry Huntley" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License Sorry Bob, What I meant was that in my case, if I didn't fly the Tripacer,"why bother" ,with the medical. I will just keep flying as a SP. You are correct that if you fail the class 3,you cannot fly SP. If you fail the Class 3 and it is because of something you can fix or be treated for and get reinstated,you are home free. Next time around you can become a SP. Another thought . An FAA person told me some time ago that if you feel you may have a problem,go for a class 2 medical. If you pass it great. If not ask your ME if he thinks you could pass a class 3. If he says no, exam is over. You did not fail a class 3 medical. You are a Sport Pilot. Larry Huntley KF 4-1200,Soob,500+ . ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Brennan To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 11:41 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License Larry, "why bother" was something I always thought was an available option, but it seems that if you, or any PPL-rated pilot, decides to re-validate the privileges with a class 3 medical; not only risks losing the privileges of his PPL but also his Sport Pilot privileges and the ability to fly at all, possibly forever. That bothers me, but now that I am aware of it I will be careful. Just posting so others are also aware, or can offer a more logical alternative. Bob Brennan - N717GB ELSA Repairman, inspection rated 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Huntley Sent: 26 December 2008 11:31 am To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License Bob, I flew for a couple of years as a SP because I was flying a Fox and a Champ. A friend dropped off his Pacer and asked me to exercise it occasionally,so I went for a medical again.My Tripacer will be flying again after a 3 yr rebuild,so I will maintain PP. Otherwise I would fly as SP anyway ,so why bother. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Brennan To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 11:07 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License Randy, Thanks for your response. I realise that as a PPL I do not need to apply to fly as a Sport Pilot, all I need is my PPL, a valid driver's license, and to stay within the restrictions of the Sport Pilot privilege. But my point was that it seems that if I discover I can no longer get a class 3 medical by failing that medical then the choice to fly as a Sport Pilot is no longer available to me. Ever. As long as the condition that denied me the medical persists. Whereas pilots who chose to stop getting a medical, and in effect "hide" the condition from the FAA, can continue to fly. Would you mind elaborating your own reason for flying as "Private flying last 4 years as a sport pilot.."? I assume you chose to stop applying for a medical rather than being denied? bob ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Daughenbaugh Sent: 26 December 2008 10:57 am To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License Bob, You don't have to "apply" for a sport pilot license. You just fly as a sport pilot with a private license. Randy Private flying last 4 years as a sport pilot.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 7:25 AM To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Subject: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License From the most recent EAA e-Hotline newsletter: -------------------------------- Question of the Week My medical examination is next month. If I "fail," I know I cannot fly as a sport pilot using my driver's license for medical certification, but is this forever? Could I wait, say six months or one year, and then apply for sport pilot? Answer: The regulation states that you cannot use your driver's license in lieu of an FAA medical certificate if your most recent application for an FAA medical certificate was denied, revoked, suspended or withdrawn by the FAA. There is no time limit on that requirement, so it doesn't matter how long ago that denial, revocation, suspension or withdrawal took place. The last time you applied for an FAA medical certificate, no matter how long ago it was, must have resulted in the regular or special issuance of a valid medical certificate. If that is not the case you are required to re-apply for an FAA medical certificate and have a valid medical issued in order to be able to take advantage of the possibility of using your driver's license in lieu of the medical certificate in the future. -------------------------------- So for us "older" pilots still enjoying the full privileges of a PPL and being honest and diligent about keeping our medical certificate up-to-date; that sounds like if the AME discovers an excluding medical condition during the medical exam the only choices are to correct the condition or stop flying. However if the condition is discovered before the exam we can apply for a Sport Pilot license, or as I understand it simply continue flying on a PPL under Sport Pilot restrictions, without divulging the medical condition. Does that make sense? Or am I reading it wrong? So if I typically fly my Light Sport Kitfox under Sport Pilot restrictions anyway should I actually *avoid* keeping my class 3 medical up to date? Before I get a litany of responses on the unconnectedness of a Light Sport rated aircraft and a Sport Pilot license - that's already been covered here and is not my point. My point is that I thought I could continue flying as a PPL (sometimes I rent a Cessna) as long as I pass my class 3 medical every 2 years, and switch to Sport Pilot if/when age and conditions inevitably catch up with me. But the above quote seems to say that if I do it that way I risk losing the privilege to fly forever if the condition that causes me to fail my medical can't be corrected. However if I do not take a medical, in effect "hiding" a condition from the FAA, I can continue to fly as a Sport Pilot as long as I retain a driver's license. Sounds like the FAA is saying "if you're stupid enough to reveal your condition to an AME then you're too stupid to fly". Or should I shop for an AME that is sympathetic enough to not send off the application to the FAA is there is a chance it would fail, after the fact? Although last time I got my medical I applied online before seeing the AME, and I think that might be the only way of doing it soon. Any AMEs out there got advice on this seeming contradiction in rules? I'm sure it's close to a lot of people on this list. Bob Brennan - N717GB ELSA Repairman, inspection rated 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click onthis year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts!List Contribution Web Site:--> http://www.matronics.com/contributionThank you for your generous support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. - The Kitfox-List Email Forum ---> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kit fox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://fo rums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- - 270.10.0/1864 - Release Date: 12/25/2008 9:40 AM href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 12/25/2008 9:40 AM ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 09:36:03 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License > > > Thanks for the reply Louie, let me be a little more specific. And > tell a > story, as older guys love to do ;-) WHAAAAAAAT???? ....where'd you hear that? : ) Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system; also building a new pair of snow skis do not archive ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 09:55:34 AM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License Would you like to hear a story about how some guys on this list tell stories Lynn? ;-) Fortunately most old guys like stories because it reminds them of, and gives them permission to tell, stories of their own! Bob Brennan - N717GB ELSA Repairman, inspection rated 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson Sent: 26 December 2008 12:35 pm Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License > > > Thanks for the reply Louie, let me be a little more specific. And > tell a > story, as older guys love to do ;-) WHAAAAAAAT???? ....where'd you hear that? : ) Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system; also building a new pair of snow skis do not archive ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 09:56:17 AM PST US From: john taylor Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License-class 2 gambit?? -Another thought . An FAA person told me some time ago that if you feel y ou may have a problem,go for a class 2 medical. If you pass it great. If no t ask your ME if he thinks you could pass a class 3. If he says no, exam is over. You did not fail a class 3 medical. You are a Sport Pilot.-- Lar ry Huntley KF 4-1200,Soob,500+ =0Aanyone else have info on this approach to the dilemma some who've failed a class 3 face?- interesting idea??- jo hn bowman, s. la bldg avid+ (fm airdale) prairieville.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A______ __________________________=0AFrom: Larry Huntley =0ATo: kitfox-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Friday, December 26, 2008 11:24:23 AM=0A Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License=0A=0A=0ASorry Bob ,=0A-What I meant was that in my case, if I didn't fly the Tripacer,"why bother" ,with the medical. I will just keep flying as a SP. You are correct that if you fail the class 3,you cannot fly SP. If you fail the Class 3 an d it is because of something you can fix or be treated for and get reinstat ed,you are home free. Next time around you can become a SP.=0A- Another t hought . An FAA person told me some time ago that if you feel you may have a problem,go for a class 2 medical. If you pass it great. If not ask your M E if he thinks you could pass a class 3. If he says no, exam is over. You d id not fail a class 3 medical. You are a Sport Pilot.-- Larry Huntley K F 4-1200,Soob,500+=0A-=0A- . =0A----- Original Message ----- =0AFrom: B ob Brennan =0ATo: kitfox-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Friday, December 26, 2 008 11:41 AM=0ASubject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License=0A =0ALarry,=0A-=0A"why bother" was something I always thought was an availa ble option, but it seems that if you, or any PPL-rated pilot, decides to re -validate the privileges with a class 3 medical; not only risks losing the privileges of his PPL but also his Sport Pilot privileges and the ability t o fly at all, possibly forever.=0A-=0AThat bothers me, but now that I am aware of it I will be careful. Just posting so others are also aware, or ca n offer a more logical alternative.=0A-=0ABob Brennan - N717GB=0AELSA Rep airman, inspection rated=0A1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox=0ARotax 582 with 3 b lade prop=0AWrightsville Pa=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom : owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@m atronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Huntley=0ASent: 26 December 2008 11:31 am =0ATo: kitfox-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sp ort Pilot License=0A=0A=0ABob,=0A- I flew for a couple of years as a SP b ecause I was flying a Fox and a Champ. A friend dropped off his Pacer and a sked me to exercise it occasionally,so I went for a medical again.My Tripac er will be flying again after a 3 yr rebuild,so I will maintain PP. Otherwi se I would fly as SP anyway ,so why bother.-- =0A----- Original Message ----- =0AFrom: Bob Brennan =0ATo: kitfox-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Frida y, December 26, 2008 11:07 AM=0ASubject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License=0A=0ARandy,=0A-=0AThanks for your response. I realise that as a PPL I do not need to apply to fly as a Sport Pilot, all I need is my PPL, a valid driver's license, and to stay within the restrictions of-the Sport Pilot privilege.=0A=0ABut my point was that it seems that if I disco ver I can no longer get a class 3 medical by failing that medical then the choice to fly as a Sport Pilot is no longer available to me. Ever. As long as the condition that denied me the medical persists. Whereas pilots who ch ose to stop getting a medical, and in effect "hide" the condition from the FAA, can continue to fly.=0A-=0AWould you mind elaborating your own reaso n for flying as "Private flying last 4 years as a sport pilot=85."? I assum e you chose to stop applying for a medical rather than being denied? =0A- =0Abob=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: owner-kitfox-list-s erver@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Beha lf Of Randy Daughenbaugh=0ASent: 26 December 2008 10:57 am=0ATo: kitfox-lis t@matronics.com=0ASubject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License =0A=0A=0ABob,=0AYou don=92t have to =93apply=94 for a sport pilot license. -You just fly as a sport pilot with a private license.=0A-=0ARandy=0APr ivate flying last 4 years as a sport pilot=85.=0A-=0A=0A_________________ _______________=0A=0AFrom:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:ow ner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan=0ASent: Frid ay, December 26, 2008 7:25 AM=0ATo: kitfox-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Ki tfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License=0A-=0AFrom the most recent EAA e-Hotline newsletter:=0A--------------------------------=0AQuestion of the Week=0AMy medical examination is next month. If I "fail," I know I cannot fly as a sport pilot using my driver's license for medical certification, b ut is this forever? Could I wait, say six months or one year, and then appl y for sport pilot? =0AAnswer:=0AThe regulation states that you cannot use y our driver's license in lieu of an FAA medical certificate if your most rec ent application for an FAA medical certificate was denied, revoked, suspend ed or withdrawn by the FAA. There is no time limit on that requirement, so it doesn't matter how long ago that denial, revocation, suspension or withd rawal took place.=0AThe last time you applied for an FAA medical certificat e, no matter how long ago it was, must have resulted in the regular or spec ial issuance of a valid medical certificate. If that is not the case you ar e required to re-apply for an FAA medical certificate and have a valid medi cal issued in order to be able to take advantage of the possibility of usin g your driver's license in lieu of the medical certificate in the future. =0A--------------------------------=0A-=0ASo for us "older" pilots still enjoying the full privileges of a PPL and being honest and diligent about k eeping our medical certificate up-to-date; that sounds like if-the AME- discovers an excluding medical condition during the medical exam the only c hoices are to correct the condition or stop flying. However if the conditio n is discovered before the exam we can apply for a Sport Pilot license, or as I understand it simply continue flying on a PPL under Sport Pilot restri ctions, without divulging the medical condition.=0A-=0ADoes that make sen se? Or am I reading it wrong? So if I typically fly my Light Sport Kitfox u nder Sport Pilot restrictions anyway should I actually *avoid* keeping my c lass 3 medical up to date? Before I get a litany of responses on the unconn ectedness of a Light Sport rated aircraft and a Sport Pilot license - that' s already been covered here and is not my point.=0A-=0AMy point is that I thought I could continue flying as a PPL (sometimes I rent a Cessna) as lo ng as I pass my class 3 medical every 2 years, and switch to Sport Pilot if /when age and conditions inevitably catch up with me. But the above quote s eems to say that if I do it that way I risk losing the privilege to fly for ever if the condition that causes me to fail my medical can't be corrected. However if I do not take a medical, in effect "hiding" a condition from th e FAA, I can continue to fly as a Sport Pilot as long as I retain a driver' s license.=0A-=0ASounds like the FAA is saying "if you're stupid enough t o reveal your condition to an AME then you're too stupid to fly". Or should I shop for an AME that is sympathetic enough to not send off the applicati on to the FAA is there is a chance it would fail, after the fact? Although last time I got my medical I applied online before seeing the AME, and I th ink that might be the only way of doing it soon.=0A-=0AAny AMEs out there got advice on this seeming contradiction in rules? I'm sure it's close to a lot of people on this list. =0A-=0ABob Brennan - N717GB=0AELSA Repairma n, inspection rated=0A1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox=0ARotax 582 with 3 blade prop=0AWrightsvillePa=0A-=0A -=0A -=0A------ -- Please Su pport Your Lists This Month --=0A---------- (And Get So me AWESOME FREE Gifts!)=0ANovember is the Annual List Fund Raiser.- Click on=0Athis year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts!=0AList Contribution Web Si te:=0A--> http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0AThank you for your genero us support!=0A-------------------- --------- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.=0A------ --- - The Kitfox-List Email Forum -=0A--> http://www.matronics.com/Na vigator?Kitfox-List=0A-------------- - MATRONIC S WEB FORUMS -=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.co m">http://forums.matronics.com=0A=0A=0A=0Ahref="http://www.matronics.com/ contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Na vigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com"> http://forums.matronics.com=0A=0A________________________________=0A- 270.1 0.0/1864 - Release Date: 12/25/2008 9:40 AM=0A=0A=0A=0Ahref="http://www.m atronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.ma tronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com=0A=0A=0A=0Ahref="http://www.matr onics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matron ics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matro nics.com">http://forums.matronics.com=0A=0A________________________________ ======================0A=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 10:09:23 AM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License-class 2 gambit?? The excellent suggestion below will only work for someone concerned that they might fail a class 3, if you have already failed it's too late. The regulations clearly state that you can only forego having a class 3 medical exam if your last exam (whenever it was, for instance I had 20 years lapse since my last medical and could legally have gone SP if I thought I would fail) was a pass. No options. Although I am very anxious for someone to step up and prove me wrong on that one because "no options" sounds so stupid. Bob Brennan - N717GB ELSA Repairman, inspection rated.. and a valid class 3 medical certificate :-p 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of john taylor Sent: 26 December 2008 12:56 pm Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License-class 2 gambit?? Another thought . An FAA person told me some time ago that if you feel you may have a problem,go for a class 2 medical. If you pass it great. If not ask your ME if he thinks you could pass a class 3. If he says no, exam is over. You did not fail a class 3 medical. You are a Sport Pilot. Larry Huntley KF 4-1200,Soob,500+ anyone else have info on this approach to the dilemma some who've failed a class 3 face? interesting idea?? john bowman, s. la bldg avid+ (fm airdale) prairieville. _____ From: Larry Huntley Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 11:24:23 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License Sorry Bob, What I meant was that in my case, if I didn't fly the Tripacer,"why bother" ,with the medical. I will just keep flying as a SP. You are correct that if you fail the class 3,you cannot fly SP. If you fail the Class 3 and it is because of something you can fix or be treated for and get reinstated,you are home free. Next time around you can become a SP. Another thought . An FAA person told me some time ago that if you feel you may have a problem,go for a class 2 medical. If you pass it great. If not ask your ME if he thinks you could pass a class 3. If he says no, exam is over. You did not fail a class 3 medical. You are a Sport Pilot. Larry Huntley KF 4-1200,Soob,500+ . ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Brennan Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 11:41 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License Larry, "why bother" was something I always thought was an available option, but it seems that if you, or any PPL-rated pilot, decides to re-validate the privileges with a class 3 medical; not only risks losing the privileges of his PPL but also his Sport Pilot privileges and the ability to fly at all, possibly forever. That bothers me, but now that I am aware of it I will be careful. Just posting so others are also aware, or can offer a more logical alternative. Bob Brennan - N717GB ELSA Repairman, inspection rated 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Huntley Sent: 26 December 2008 11:31 am Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License Bob, I flew for a couple of years as a SP because I was flying a Fox and a Champ. A friend dropped off his Pacer and asked me to exercise it occasionally,so I went for a medical again.My Tripacer will be flying again after a 3 yr rebuild,so I will maintain PP. Otherwise I would fly as SP anyway ,so why bother. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Brennan Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 11:07 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License Randy, Thanks for your response. I realise that as a PPL I do not need to apply to fly as a Sport Pilot, all I need is my PPL, a valid driver's license, and to stay within the restrictions of the Sport Pilot privilege. But my point was that it seems that if I discover I can no longer get a class 3 medical by failing that medical then the choice to fly as a Sport Pilot is no longer available to me. Ever. As long as the condition that denied me the medical persists. Whereas pilots who chose to stop getting a medical, and in effect "hide" the condition from the FAA, can continue to fly. Would you mind elaborating your own reason for flying as "Private flying last 4 years as a sport pilot.."? I assume you chose to stop applying for a medical rather than being denied? bob _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Daughenbaugh Sent: 26 December 2008 10:57 am Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License Bob, You don't have to "apply" for a sport pilot license. You just fly as a sport pilot with a private license. Randy Private flying last 4 years as a sport pilot.. _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 7:25 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License >From the most recent EAA e-Hotline newsletter: -------------------------------- Question of the Week My medical examination is next month. If I "fail," I know I cannot fly as a sport pilot using my driver's license for medical certification, but is this forever? Could I wait, say six months or one year, and then apply for sport pilot? Answer: The regulation states that you cannot use your driver's license in lieu of an FAA medical certificate if your most recent application for an FAA medical certificate was denied, revoked, suspended or withdrawn by the FAA. There is no time limit on that requirement, so it doesn't matter how long ago that denial, revocation, suspension or withdrawal took place. The last time you applied for an FAA medical certificate, no matter how long ago it was, must have resulted in the regular or special issuance of a valid medical certificate. If that is not the case you are required to re-apply for an FAA medical certificate and have a valid medical issued in order to be able to take advantage of the possibility of using your driver's license in lieu of the medical certificate in the future. -------------------------------- So for us "older" pilots still enjoying the full privileges of a PPL and being honest and diligent about keeping our medical certificate up-to-date; that sounds like if the AME discovers an excluding medical condition during the medical exam the only choices are to correct the condition or stop flying. However if the condition is discovered before the exam we can apply for a Sport Pilot license, or as I understand it simply continue flying on a PPL under Sport Pilot restrictions, without divulging the medical condition. Does that make sense? Or am I reading it wrong? So if I typically fly my Light Sport Kitfox under Sport Pilot restrictions anyway should I actually *avoid* keeping my class 3 medical up to date? Before I get a litany of responses on the unconnectedness of a Light Sport rated aircraft and a Sport Pilot license - that's already been covered here and is not my point. My point is that I thought I could continue flying as a PPL (sometimes I rent a Cessna) as long as I pass my class 3 medical every 2 years, and switch to Sport Pilot if/when age and conditions inevitably catch up with me. But the above quote seems to say that if I do it that way I risk losing the privilege to fly forever if the condition that causes me to fail my medical can't be corrected. However if I do not take a medical, in effect "hiding" a condition from the FAA, I can continue to fly as a Sport Pilot as long as I retain a driver's license. Sounds like the FAA is saying "if you're stupid enough to reveal your condition to an AME then you're too stupid to fly". Or should I shop for an AME that is sympathetic enough to not send off the application to the FAA is there is a chance it would fail, after the fact? Although last time I got my medical I applied online before seeing the AME, and I think that might be the only way of doing it soon. Any AMEs out there got advice on this seeming contradiction in rules? I'm sure it's close to a lot of people on this list. Bob Brennan - N717GB ELSA Repairman, inspection rated 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts! List Contribution Web Site: --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you for your generous support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. - The Kitfox-List Email Forum - --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - http://www.matronics..com/chref= "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http ://forums.matronics.com ">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http ://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com _____ - 270.10.0/1864 - Release Date: 12/25/2008 9:40 AM href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref "http://www..matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="htt p://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http ://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com _____ - 270.10.0/1864 - Release Date: 12/25/2008 9:40 AM http://www.matroniccs.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.mat="http://forums.matronics.com/" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://for===================== ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 10:41:35 AM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Kitfox-List: Engine Mount Fabrication A little change of pace here. For those who have put alternative engines in their Kitfoxes or other airplanes, I am curious about the techniques for fabricating the engine mount. I know there are thrust offset angles etc. but how do you convert this into an actual engine mount.? I am thinking of a mount for a Rotax 912 to a Model IV Kitfox that will allow a more desirable location for the oil tank. I'd appreciate any help. Lowell Fitt Cameron Park, CA Model IV-1200 R-912 UL Currently focusing on the Cockpit controlled rudder trim :-) ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 11:18:45 AM PST US From: Michael Gibbs Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License-class 2 gambit?? Before trying something like this I'd make dang sure the regulation doesn't say that failing ANY FAA medical exam being disqualifying for sport pilots. Mike G. N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster Phoenix, AZ On Dec 26, 2008, at 9:55 AM, john taylor wrote: > Another thought . An FAA person told me some time ago that if you > feel you may have a problem,go for a class 2 medical. If you pass it > great. If not ask your ME if he thinks you could pass a class 3. If > he says no, exam is over. You did not fail a class 3 medical. You > are a Sport Pilot. Larry Huntley KF 4-1200,Soob,500+ > > anyone else have info on this approach to the dilemma some who've > failed a class 3 face? interesting idea?? john bowman, s. la bldg > avid+ (fm airdale) prairieville. > > From: Larry Huntley > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 11:24:23 AM > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License > > Sorry Bob, > What I meant was that in my case, if I didn't fly the Tripacer,"why > bother" ,with the medical. I will just keep flying as a SP. You are > correct that if you fail the class 3,you cannot fly SP. If you fail > the Class 3 and it is because of something you can fix or be treated > for and get reinstated,you are home free. Next time around you can > become a SP. > Another thought . An FAA person told me some time ago that if you > feel you may have a problem,go for a class 2 medical. If you pass it > great. If not ask your ME if he thinks you could pass a class 3. If > he says no, exam is over. You did not fail a class 3 medical. You > are a Sport Pilot. Larry Huntley KF 4-1200,Soob,500+ > > . > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bob Brennan > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 11:41 AM > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License > > Larry, > > "why bother" was something I always thought was an available option, > but it seems that if you, or any PPL-rated pilot, decides to re- > validate the privileges with a class 3 medical; not only risks > losing the privileges of his PPL but also his Sport Pilot privileges > and the ability to fly at all, possibly forever. > > That bothers me, but now that I am aware of it I will be careful. > Just posting so others are also aware, or can offer a more logical > alternative. > > Bob Brennan - N717GB > ELSA Repairman, inspection rated > 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox > Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop > Wrightsville Pa > > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > ] On Behalf Of Larry Huntley > Sent: 26 December 2008 11:31 am > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License > > Bob, > I flew for a couple of years as a SP because I was flying a Fox > and a Champ. A friend dropped off his Pacer and asked me to exercise > it occasionally,so I went for a medical again.My Tripacer will be > flying again after a 3 yr rebuild,so I will maintain PP. Otherwise I > would fly as SP anyway ,so why bother. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bob Brennan > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 11:07 AM > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License > > Randy, > > Thanks for your response. I realise that as a PPL I do not need to > apply to fly as a Sport Pilot, all I need is my PPL, a valid > driver's license, and to stay within the restrictions of the Sport > Pilot privilege. > > But my point was that it seems that if I discover I can no longer > get a class 3 medical by failing that medical then the choice to fly > as a Sport Pilot is no longer available to me. Ever. As long as the > condition that denied me the medical persists. Whereas pilots who > chose to stop getting a medical, and in effect "hide" the condition > from the FAA, can continue to fly. > > Would you mind elaborating your own reason for flying as "Private > flying last 4 years as a sport pilot."? I assume you chose to stop > applying for a medical rather than being denied? > > bob > > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > ] On Behalf Of Randy Daughenbaugh > Sent: 26 December 2008 10:57 am > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License > > Bob, > > You don=99t have to =9Capply=9D for a sport pilot license. You just > fly as a sport pilot with a private license. > > > Randy > > Private flying last 4 years as a sport pilot. > > > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > ] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan > Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 7:25 AM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License > > > =46rom the most recent EAA e-Hotline newsletter: > > -------------------------------- > > Question of the Week > My medical examination is next month. If I "fail," I know I cannot > fly as a sport pilot using my driver's license for medical > certification, but is this forever? Could I wait, say six months or > one year, and then apply for sport pilot? > > Answer: > The regulation states that you cannot use your driver's license in > lieu of an FAA medical certificate if your most recent application > for an FAA medical certificate was denied, revoked, suspended or > withdrawn by the FAA. There is no time limit on that requirement, so > it doesn't matter how long ago that denial, revocation, suspension > or withdrawal took place. > > The last time you applied for an FAA medical certificate, no matter > how long ago it was, must have resulted in the regular or special > issuance of a valid medical certificate. If that is not the case you > are required to re-apply for an FAA medical certificate and have a > valid medical issued in order to be able to take advantage of the > possibility of using your driver's license in lieu of the medical > certificate in the future. > > -------------------------------- > > > So for us "older" pilots still enjoying the full privileges of a PPL > and being honest and diligent about keeping our medical certificate > up-to-date; that sounds like if the AME discovers an excluding > medical condition during the medical exam the only choices are to > correct the condition or stop flying. However if the condition is > discovered before the exam we can apply for a Sport Pilot license, > or as I understand it simply continue flying on a PPL under Sport > Pilot restrictions, without divulging the medical condition. > > > Does that make sense? Or am I reading it wrong? So if I typically > fly my Light Sport Kitfox under Sport Pilot restrictions anyway > should I actually *avoid* keeping my class 3 medical up to date? > Before I get a litany of responses on the unconnectedness of a Light > Sport rated aircraft and a Sport Pilot license - that's already been > covered here and is not my point. > > > My point is that I thought I could continue flying as a PPL > (sometimes I rent a Cessna) as long as I pass my class 3 medical > every 2 years, and switch to Sport Pilot if/when age and conditions > inevitably catch up with me. But the above quote seems to say that > if I do it that way I risk losing the privilege to fly forever if > the condition that causes me to fail my medical can't be corrected. > However if I do not take a medical, in effect "hiding" a condition > from the FAA, I can continue to fly as a Sport Pilot as long as I > retain a driver's license. > > > Sounds like the FAA is saying "if you're stupid enough to reveal > your condition to an AME then you're too stupid to fly". Or should I > shop for an AME that is sympathetic enough to not send off the > application to the FAA is there is a chance it would fail, after the > fact? Although last time I got my medical I applied online before > seeing the AME, and I think that might be the only way of doing it > soon. > > > Any AMEs out there got advice on this seeming contradiction in > rules? I'm sure it's close to a lot of people on this list. > > > Bob Brennan - N717GB > > ELSA Repairman, inspection rated > > 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox > > Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop > > Wrightsville Pa > > > -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- > (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) > November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on > this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts! > List Contribution Web Site: > --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution > Thank you for your generous support! > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > - The Kitfox-List Email Forum - > --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > http://www.matronics..com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitf ox-List > ">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matr onics.com > > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ch ref= > "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http:// > www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > - 270.10.0/1864 - Release Date: 12/25/2008 9:40 AM > > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ch ref= > "http://www..matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref > ="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ch ref= > "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http:// > www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > - 270.10.0/1864 - Release Date: 12/25/2008 9:40 AM > http://www.matroniccs.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List" target=_blank > rel=nofollow>http://www.mat="http://forums.matronics.com/" > target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://for=========== > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 11:49:57 AM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License-class 2 gambit?? Just to be clear - a 2nd class (commercial pilot) medical is stricter to get than 3rd class (private pilot). 1st class (ATP) is of course the strictest. I believe there are plenty of professional pilots that downgrade their job from ATP to Commercial if/when they can't get a 1st class certificate, and enjoy the privileges of being a private pilot if/when they can't qualify for a 2nd class. The problem is there doesn't seem to be a "downgrade" path from 3rd class Private Pilot to Sport Pilot if you fail your 3rd class test. You can "fail" the 3rd class requirements and still be a Sport Pilot, just don't fail the exam! Most other "downgrades" occur when the pilot in fact does fail the stricter test but meets the requirements of the next step down and passes that test. According to the wording of the FAA statement it appears that a pilot can fail a 1st or 2nd class medical but if he can pass a 3rd class once he is ok to be a Sport Pilot forever as long as he/she holds a valid drivers license. Also - passing a 2nd class medical, I believe, includes all of the privileges of a 3rd class already. So you can be an ATP or commercial pilot during the week and a private pilot on weekends without multiple medicals. The advice below is good - if you can pass a class 2 (a lot more expensive though I'm sure) go for it, you already have class 3 included. If you fail I'm sure any self-respecting AME will advise you if you qualify for a class 3 and issue that. But I also think Mike's statement below is true - let's say you have a class 1 and fail and are told you can't even get a class 3, I suspect you then also can't be a Sport Pilot. The trick is to find an AME that will not document the failure, it's ok to let a medical of any class expire - as long as it's valid when it does you can be a Sport Pilot. Just like my dizzy friend with the "did you ever black out?" on his record, you can't take a failure back even if it was justifiable. You can fight it of course, but good luck with that! Bob Brennan - N717GB ELSA Repairman, inspection rated 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Gibbs Sent: 26 December 2008 2:17 pm Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License-class 2 gambit?? Before trying something like this I'd make dang sure the regulation doesn't say that failing ANY FAA medical exam being disqualifying for sport pilots. Mike G. N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster Phoenix, AZ On Dec 26, 2008, at 9:55 AM, john taylor wrote: Another thought . An FAA person told me some time ago that if you feel you may have a problem,go for a class 2 medical. If you pass it great. If not ask your ME if he thinks you could pass a class 3. If he says no, exam is over. You did not fail a class 3 medical. You are a Sport Pilot. Larry Huntley KF 4-1200,Soob,500+ anyone else have info on this approach to the dilemma some who've failed a class 3 face? interesting idea?? john bowman, s. la bldg avid+ (fm airdale) prairieville. _____ From: Larry Huntley Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 11:24:23 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License Sorry Bob, What I meant was that in my case, if I didn't fly the Tripacer,"why bother" ,with the medical. I will just keep flying as a SP. You are correct that if you fail the class 3,you cannot fly SP. If you fail the Class 3 and it is because of something you can fix or be treated for and get reinstated,you are home free. Next time around you can become a SP. Another thought . An FAA person told me some time ago that if you feel you may have a problem,go for a class 2 medical. If you pass it great. If not ask your ME if he thinks you could pass a class 3. If he says no, exam is over. You did not fail a class 3 medical. You are a Sport Pilot. Larry Huntley KF 4-1200,Soob,500+ . ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Brennan Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 11:41 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License Larry, "why bother" was something I always thought was an available option, but it seems that if you, or any PPL-rated pilot, decides to re-validate the privileges with a class 3 medical; not only risks losing the privileges of his PPL but also his Sport Pilot privileges and the ability to fly at all, possibly forever. That bothers me, but now that I am aware of it I will be careful. Just posting so others are also aware, or can offer a more logical alternative. Bob Brennan - N717GB ELSA Repairman, inspection rated 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Huntley Sent: 26 December 2008 11:31 am Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License Bob, I flew for a couple of years as a SP because I was flying a Fox and a Champ. A friend dropped off his Pacer and asked me to exercise it occasionally,so I went for a medical again.My Tripacer will be flying again after a 3 yr rebuild,so I will maintain PP. Otherwise I would fly as SP anyway ,so why bother. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Brennan Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 11:07 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License Randy, Thanks for your response. I realise that as a PPL I do not need to apply to fly as a Sport Pilot, all I need is my PPL, a valid driver's license, and to stay within the restrictions of the Sport Pilot privilege. But my point was that it seems that if I discover I can no longer get a class 3 medical by failing that medical then the choice to fly as a Sport Pilot is no longer available to me. Ever. As long as the condition that denied me the medical persists. Whereas pilots who chose to stop getting a medical, and in effect "hide" the condition from the FAA, can continue to fly. Would you mind elaborating your own reason for flying as "Private flying last 4 years as a sport pilot.."? I assume you chose to stop applying for a medical rather than being denied? bob _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Daughenbaugh Sent: 26 December 2008 10:57 am Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License Bob, You don't have to "apply" for a sport pilot license. You just fly as a sport pilot with a private license. Randy Private flying last 4 years as a sport pilot.. _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 7:25 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License >From the most recent EAA e-Hotline newsletter: -------------------------------- Question of the Week My medical examination is next month. If I "fail," I know I cannot fly as a sport pilot using my driver's license for medical certification, but is this forever? Could I wait, say six months or one year, and then apply for sport pilot? Answer: The regulation states that you cannot use your driver's license in lieu of an FAA medical certificate if your most recent application for an FAA medical certificate was denied, revoked, suspended or withdrawn by the FAA. There is no time limit on that requirement, so it doesn't matter how long ago that denial, revocation, suspension or withdrawal took place. The last time you applied for an FAA medical certificate, no matter how long ago it was, must have resulted in the regular or special issuance of a valid medical certificate. If that is not the case you are required to re-apply for an FAA medical certificate and have a valid medical issued in order to be able to take advantage of the possibility of using your driver's license in lieu of the medical certificate in the future. -------------------------------- So for us "older" pilots still enjoying the full privileges of a PPL and being honest and diligent about keeping our medical certificate up-to-date; that sounds like if the AME discovers an excluding medical condition during the medical exam the only choices are to correct the condition or stop flying. However if the condition is discovered before the exam we can apply for a Sport Pilot license, or as I understand it simply continue flying on a PPL under Sport Pilot restrictions, without divulging the medical condition. Does that make sense? Or am I reading it wrong? So if I typically fly my Light Sport Kitfox under Sport Pilot restrictions anyway should I actually *avoid* keeping my class 3 medical up to date? Before I get a litany of responses on the unconnectedness of a Light Sport rated aircraft and a Sport Pilot license - that's already been covered here and is not my point. My point is that I thought I could continue flying as a PPL (sometimes I rent a Cessna) as long as I pass my class 3 medical every 2 years, and switch to Sport Pilot if/when age and conditions inevitably catch up with me. But the above quote seems to say that if I do it that way I risk losing the privilege to fly forever if the condition that causes me to fail my medical can't be corrected. However if I do not take a medical, in effect "hiding" a condition from the FAA, I can continue to fly as a Sport Pilot as long as I retain a driver's license. Sounds like the FAA is saying "if you're stupid enough to reveal your condition to an AME then you're too stupid to fly". Or should I shop for an AME that is sympathetic enough to not send off the application to the FAA is there is a chance it would fail, after the fact? Although last time I got my medical I applied online before seeing the AME, and I think that might be the only way of doing it soon. Any AMEs out there got advice on this seeming contradiction in rules? I'm sure it's close to a lot of people on this list. Bob Brennan - N717GB ELSA Repairman, inspection rated 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts! List Contribution Web Site: --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you for your generous support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. - The Kitfox-List Email Forum - --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - http://www.matronics..com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-L ist">http://www.matronhref=" http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http ://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com _____ - 270.10.0/1864 - Release Date: 12/25/2008 9:40 AM href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref "http://www..matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="htt p://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http ://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com _____ - 270.10.0/1864 - Release Date: 12/25/2008 9:40 AM http://www.matroniccs.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.mat="http://forums.matronics.com/" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://for===================== href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contri bution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronics.c om/Navigator?Kitfox-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 12:25:05 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License Yes, please...I think we need to run them out of town on a rail...or tar and feather them....or something drastic....of all the nerve...telling stories on a builders help list...tsk, tsk, tsk... Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system; also building a new pair of snow skis do not archive On Dec 26, 2008, at 12:54 PM, Bob Brennan wrote: > > > Would you like to hear a story about how some guys on this list > tell stories > Lynn? ;-) > > Fortunately most old guys like stories because it reminds them of, > and gives > them permission to tell, stories of their own! > > Bob Brennan - N717GB > ELSA Repairman, inspection rated > 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox > Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop > Wrightsville Pa > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn > Matteson > Sent: 26 December 2008 12:35 pm > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License > > > >> >> >> Thanks for the reply Louie, let me be a little more specific. And >> tell a >> story, as older guys love to do ;-) > > WHAAAAAAAT???? ....where'd you hear that? : ) > > > Lynn Matteson ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 01:29:19 PM PST US From: ron schick Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Engine Mount Fabrication Hi Lowell as I had no complete kit to work from I was forced to make a lot . I used a stock cowl to locate the appropriate prop centerline. From ther e I hung my engine from a 4x4 that extended forward from the overhead carry through tubes. I also braced the engine from the bottom to maintain strai ght and level. I had the tubes bolted to the engine and frame then tacked the connecting tubes in place with a mig. At this point it is a foggy memor ie=2C but I believe the thrustline is parralell to the floorboard. An airp lane will fly fine straight=2C but the angle if you choose to add is usuall y down and to the left or right depending on prop rotation. From the cockp it view a clockwise rotation would need a slight right angle. I can add sh ims if needed=2C but it feels fine. 100+ hours KF IV VW redrive Ron NB Ore 541KF 117AF 67779 Ps glad to hear you are building something > From: lcfitt@sbcglobal.net> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com> Subject: Kitfo x-List: Engine Mount Fabrication> Date: Fri=2C 26 Dec 2008 10:35:57 -0800> > A little change of pace here.> > For those who have put alternative engin es in their Kitfoxes or other > airplanes=2C I am curious about the techniq ues for fabricating the engine > mount. I know there are thrust offset angl es etc. but how do you convert > this into an actual engine mount.? I am th inking of a mount for a Rotax 912 > to a Model IV Kitfox that will allow a more desirable location for the oil > tank.> > I'd appreciate any help.> > Lowell Fitt> Cameron Park=2C CA> Model IV-1200 R-912 UL> Currently focusing =====> > > _________________________________________________________________ It=92s the same Hotmail=AE. If by =93same=94 you mean up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad 1_122008 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 02:06:52 PM PST US From: patrick reilly Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking Lynn=2C That is easy to avoid. Build your own=2C now. As woodworkers my bro ther and I have contemplated it. Probably never do it. Too many things to b uild we can use right now. do not archive Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford=2CIL> From: lynnmatt@jps.net> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking> Date: Tue=2C 23 Dec 2008 13:41:18 -0500> To: son > > I figure I'll be in the casket thinking: "Now wha t in hell prompted > them to build this thing like they did? Damn=2C if onl y they had....."> > Lynn Matteson> Kitfox IV Speedster=2C taildragger> Jabi ru 2200=2C #2062=2C 596+ hrs> Sensenich 62x46> flying again after rebuild =2C and new Electroair direct-fire ignition > system=3B> also building a ne w pair of snow skis> do not archive> > > > On Dec 23=2C 2008=2C at 12:13 PM =2C patrick reilly wrote:> > I'll be trying to get out of the casket to bui ld something=2C anything.> > > do not archive> > Pat Reilly> > Mod 3 582 Re ========================> > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 04:32:13 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking Good idea, Pat....now I know what I can use this vacuum bagging stuff for. Yeah, probably as soon as I built a casket, I'd have to try it out and the damn lid would fall shut on me.....I can hear my last words now...."What dumb s__t didn't put an inside latch on this damn thing...wait'l I get my hands on the guy who engineered this thing." Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system; also building a new pair of snow skis do not archive On Dec 26, 2008, at 5:04 PM, patrick reilly wrote: > Lynn, That is easy to avoid. Build your own, now. As woodworkers my > brother and I have contemplated it. Probably never do it. Too many > things to build we can use right now. > > do not archive > > Pat Reilly > Mod 3 582 Rebuild > Rockford,IL > > > From: lynnmatt@jps.net > > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox III Fiberglass Seat Pan Cracking > > Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 13:41:18 -0500 > > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > > > > > > I figure I'll be in the casket thinking: "Now what in hell prompted > > them to build this thing like they did? Damn, if only they had....." > > > > Lynn Matteson > > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger > > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs > > Sensenich 62x46 > > flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition > > system; > > also building a new pair of snow skis > > do not archive > > > > > > > > On Dec 23, 2008, at 12:13 PM, patrick reilly wrote: > > > I'll be trying to get out of the casket to build something, > anything. > > > > > do not archive > > > Pat Reilly > > > Mod 3 582 Rebuild > > ============= > > > > > > > > ============================================================ _- > ============================================================ _- > =========================================================== ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 06:03:03 PM PST US From: Weiss Richard Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License Bob, As a GA and airline pilot, I've had a special issuance (1st class) for over 20 years and high blood pressure to boot. The FAA has made it very easy for a pilot to get BP meds because they realized guys were avoiding medical treatment of this disease out of fear of losing their certificate. The consequences of not taking the meds were too dangerous. Almost any BP med is now on the FAA approved list. They only ask for a pilot to ascertain any side effects and ensure they don't affect flying. (By the way, the same goes for sleep apnea. It's not that difficult to regain certification, just $$, don't ask how I know this:-) I understand the salt, fat reduction, and the exercise regimen you discussed, and that's great, but I've never heard any doctor recommend aspirin 3 times a day to reduce BP. The side effects of aspirin are serious; internal bleeding, gastric disorders, etc. I hope you're not still doing that. As for Sport Pilot, the feds were backed into a corner. Sport Pilot was supported by the industry and touted by the FAA as a cost reduction to get more people into flying, not as means for us old guys to skirt medical certification conditions. Thus, if you know you have a disqualifying condition, and the FAA doesn't, what can they do? However, once they know, what can they do? Now you and they both know your condition and they can't legally, turn their back to it, as the rule is currently written. Also. it's not likely the rule will change due to the time, cost, and other problems involved in fixing it. It's sad it can't be fixed, but it is what it is. I would recommend establishing a good relationship with your AME and get a physical by him or her in advance,maybe 'within minutes':-) of the flight physical. If you pass fine, if it doesn't, stop there. If the problem is such that immediate action is required then so be it. Better to live and not fly. Go get healed, come back and try again. The relationship 'thing' can't be overemphasized. Most AME's want you to fly and come back frequently for more flight physicals. They also want you to be safe. Most will always work with you, if not, FIRE him and go find another. If you're a member, you can always call the EAA board of medical advisors with your questions. They will give you an unbiased answer and you can do this without fear of repercussion. The same is true for AOPA. Use these folks, as they are there for you. Heck, your dues are paying for this service. Just my two cents. Rick Weiss N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS SkyStar S/N 1 Port Orange, FL ) DO NOT ARCHIVE On Dec 26, 2008, at 10:55 AM, Bob Brennan wrote: > So I cut out all salt and fat, took > aspirin 3 times a day for a week, and went to my doctor to get a > certified > reading within their limits. ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 07:21:14 PM PST US From: "Bradley Webb" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Engine Mount Fabrication Hey Lowell, When I mounted my Geo to the M2, I went and bought a laser level from Home Depot. I can't imagine doing this without this magical tool. Basically, I mounted the engine with 2 degrees right thrust and 2 down. This works very well in flight. The vertical down thrust is easy - put a magnetic degree level on the prop flange. I hung my engine from an engine hoist, and adjusted the straps to get it tilted down. The horizontal right thrust is harder, in that it requires public math. Se here: http://www.gsal.org/tools/offset_calc.htm This calculator will tell you how far LEFT to move the back of the engine to get the prop flange centered with right thrust. It's just basic trig, but the web app is easier for those of us who slept through high school. Once set, build up your mount webing, and tack weld as you go. Actually, the hardest part was checking the alignment 10,000 times as I was going. The laser level is pure magic for this. I found a way to build up the mount without having to fishmouth the tubing. This saved tons of time, and is holding up very well in use. In fact, I dare say my method of joining tubes is stronger. Basically, Just hang the engine where you want it, and start fitting up tubing, one piece at a time. I hope this answers your question, Bradley > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt > Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 1:36 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Engine Mount Fabrication > > > A little change of pace here. > > For those who have put alternative engines in their Kitfoxes or other > airplanes, I am curious about the techniques for fabricating the engine > mount. I know there are thrust offset angles etc. but how do you convert > this into an actual engine mount.? I am thinking of a mount for a Rotax > 912 > to a Model IV Kitfox that will allow a more desirable location for the oil > tank. > > I'd appreciate any help. > > Lowell Fitt > Cameron Park, CA > Model IV-1200 R-912 UL > Currently focusing on the Cockpit controlled rudder trim :-) > > > > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 07:23:42 PM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Kitfox-List: Kitfox-list: List Nazis All, Deke, one of the original moderators, thought some of you might have thought I categorized him as a "List Nazi" in my "Happy Holidays" post. Nope, I was only referring to Mike and I, in our current administration. Deke is not, and never was, a "List Nazi". Thanks, Guy Buchanan - Kitfox List ModeratorSan Diego, CA K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade 100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 07:44:03 PM PST US From: Weiss Richard Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox-list: List Nazis Guy, You're running one of the best lists ever. The last thing you (or Mike) are, are list nazi's. It's time to chill out and have a double enhanced eggnog shooter:-) It's been great, having you do, what you do, so well. (Time to break into song here.) No apologies necessary - in fact give yourselves a 100% raise. Rick Weiss N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS SkyStar S/N 1 Port Orange, FL DO NOT ARCHIVE On Dec 26, 2008, at 10:14 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote: > All, > Deke, one > of the original moderators, thought some of you might have thought I > categorized him as a "List Nazi" in my "Happy > Holidays" post. Nope, I was only referring to Mike and I, in our > current administration. Deke is not, and never was, a "List > Nazi". > > Thanks, > > Guy Buchanan - Kitfox List ModeratorSan Diego, CA > K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade > 100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar > > ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 08:14:09 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Full PPL vs Sport Pilot License Rick sez: > I would recommend establishing a good relationship with your AME... I agree completely. My AME is a former corporate jet pilot turned neurologist turned AME. He WANTS me to pass my physical. He WANTS to keep me in the left seat. If your doctor is busy looking for reasons to ground you or doesn't care one way or the other, it's time for a new doctor. Mike G. N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster Phoenix, AZ ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 08:14:09 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Kitfox-list: List Nazis Rick sez: > You're running one of the best lists ever. Thelast thing you (or Mike) are, are list nazi's. Thanks Rick! Mike G. Kitfox List Moderator Phoenix, AZ ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 11:47:14 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Brake Problems From: "jridgway" Their was a funny hydraulic 'lock up' problem when you used dual MATCO brakes. Make sure you do not have the old GRAY IRON looking kind. This problem was fixed with the newer GOLD ANODIZED version. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221327#221327 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.