---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 01/01/09: 39 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:51 AM - Re: Tail dragger options vs tricycle gear (Michel Verheughe) 2. 03:24 AM - Re: Re: Tail dragger options vs tricycle gear, was: Re:Everybody ground loops? (Lynn Matteson) 3. 04:03 AM - Re: Re: Tail dragger options vs tricycle gear, was: Re:Everybody ground loops? (JC Propeller Design) 4. 05:31 AM - Re: Re: Tail dragger options vs tricycle gear (Lynn Matteson) 5. 06:14 AM - Re: Re: Rhinebeck NY94 (Lynn Matteson) 6. 06:16 AM - Re: Re: 582 fuel pump (fox5flyer) 7. 06:20 AM - Re: carb vents (Tom Jones) 8. 06:23 AM - Re: Re: Rhinebeck NY94 (Lynn Matteson) 9. 06:29 AM - Re: Re: carb vents (fox5flyer) 10. 06:33 AM - Re: Re: Everybody ground loops? (fox5flyer) 11. 07:49 AM - Re: Re: 582 fuel pump (patrick reilly) 12. 08:32 AM - 582 vent tube (charles cook) 13. 08:50 AM - Re: Re: 582 fuel pump (Guy Buchanan) 14. 09:08 AM - Re: Re: 582 fuel pump (fox5flyer) 15. 12:33 PM - Re: 582 fuel pump (Tom Jones) 16. 12:40 PM - Re: Kitfox's 25th Anniversary - 1984-2009 (Tom Jones) 17. 02:54 PM - Re: Re: 582 fuel pump (patrick reilly) 18. 03:02 PM - Re: Re: 582 fuel pump (patrick reilly) 19. 03:04 PM - Re: Re: 582 fuel pump (patrick reilly) 20. 03:42 PM - Re: Re: Floats with the new exhaust pipe. (Noel Loveys) 21. 04:22 PM - Re: Re: Tail dragger options vs tricycle gear, was: Re:Everybody ground loops? (Noel Loveys) 22. 04:38 PM - Re: Re: Floats with the new exhaust pipe. (Noel Loveys) 23. 04:44 PM - Re: Re: Floats with the new exhaust pipe. (Lowell Fitt) 24. 05:19 PM - Re: Re: Floats with the new exhaust pipe. (Cudnohufsky's) 25. 05:23 PM - Re: Re: Floats with the new exhaust pipe. (fox5flyer) 26. 05:31 PM - Re: Everybody ground loops? (Noel Loveys) 27. 05:46 PM - Re: Re: Floats with the new exhaust pipe. (sbennett3) 28. 06:22 PM - Re: Re: Floats with the new exhaust pipe. (Michael Gibbs) 29. 06:24 PM - Re: Re: Floats with the new exhaust pipe. (Cudnohufsky's) 30. 06:49 PM - Re: Everybody ground loops? (Lynn Matteson) 31. 06:59 PM - Re: takeoff, landing, taxiing and crosswind technique (Paul Franz - Merlin GT) 32. 07:00 PM - WOW Nice Pic's Lynn (steve shinabery) 33. 07:28 PM - Re: Re: My Story on Ground Looping (steve shinabery) 34. 07:59 PM - Re: takeoff, landing, taxiing and crosswind technique (Noel Loveys) 35. 09:02 PM - Re: Re: takeoff, landing, taxiing and crosswind technique (Paul Franz - Merlin GT) 36. 09:36 PM - Re: Everybody ground loops? (gary.algate@sandvik.com) 37. 11:02 PM - Official Kitfox-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle) 38. 11:14 PM - Official Kitfox-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) 39. 11:19 PM - Re: broken tailwheel suspension spring (Paul Franz - Merlin GT) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:51:28 AM PST US From: Michel Verheughe Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Tail dragger options vs tricycle gear > From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt@jps.net] > I found the term "conventional" rather strange too It is similar in French: Train classique. Happy New Year, everyone! Michel Verheughe Norway Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 Do not archive
________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:24:49 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Tail dragger options vs tricycle gear, was: Re:Everybody ground loops? Better to be called an old Fokker than a dead Fokker. : ) Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system; also building a new pair of snow skis do not archive On Dec 31, 2008, at 10:42 PM, Bob Brennan wrote: > Funny how similar your paint scheme is to this Old Rhinebeck > favorite, all > you need now to do is add a few more wings. And not mind being > called an > "old fokker". > > Oh no, I'm giving him more ideas! > > Do not archive > Old man bob ;-) > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:03:22 AM PST US From: "JC Propeller Design" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Tail dragger options vs tricycle gear, was: Re:Everybody ground loops? The first Fokker was the "SPIN" Dutch for spider, this was the first, The mother Fokker. see Mikael fly his new DR1 with original engine, http://www.aerodrome.nu/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Matteson" Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 12:23 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Tail dragger options vs tricycle gear, was: Re:Everybody ground loops? > > Better to be called an old Fokker than a dead Fokker. : ) > > Lynn Matteson > Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger > Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs > Sensenich 62x46 > flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition > system; > also building a new pair of snow skis > do not archive > > > On Dec 31, 2008, at 10:42 PM, Bob Brennan wrote: > >> Funny how similar your paint scheme is to this Old Rhinebeck favorite, >> all >> you need now to do is add a few more wings. And not mind being called an >> "old fokker". >> >> Oh no, I'm giving him more ideas! >> >> Do not archive >> Old man bob ;-) >> > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 3728 (20090101) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:31:41 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Tail dragger options vs tricycle gear Happy New Year Michel...hope you get your licenses back this year! Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system; also building a new pair of snow skis do not archive On Jan 1, 2009, at 3:50 AM, Michel Verheughe wrote: >> From: Lynn Matteson [lynnmatt@jps.net] >> I found the term "conventional" rather strange too > > It is similar in French: Train classique. > > Happy New Year, everyone! > > Michel Verheughe > Norway > Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 > > Do not archive > > 

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________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:14:01 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Rhinebeck NY94 Thanks for the tip, Bob....I'm putting it on my calendar. With my luck with weather, that ought to put the death knell on THAT show. : ) Hey, how about a Kitfox get-together some fine weekend for anybody who can make it there during their season? I didn't realize that the state that I was born in (Allentown, PA... 35 miles from the Golden Age Air Museum) was so screwed up...TWO Wrightsville's in the same state? What were they thinking? Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system; also building a new pair of snow skis do not archive On Jan 1, 2009, at 12:28 AM, Bob Brennan wrote: > > > The Golden Age Airshow in Pa (near me) is similar to Old Rhinebeck, > in fact > it is put on by a guy who used to run the Rhinebeck show. > http://www.goldenageair.org/events.htm > > Speaking of tailwheels and nosewheels and damage - they did the > drunken-farmer-steals-a-cub routine but when he was supposed to be > "waving" > the tail he waved a little too much... prop strike! That was the > end of the > show season for that cub, despite being a taildragger. > > Happy New Year! > > Bob Brennan - N717GB > ELSA Repairman, inspection rated > 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox > Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop > Wrightsville Pa ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:16:54 AM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: 582 fuel pump What you're using will probably work fine. I read somewhere that it should be kept to 12" or less, if possible and it's inadvisable to use any sort of soft line, like polyurethane as it will flex (in/out) with the piston pulses and can inhibit the pumping action of the diaphragm. My suggestion would be to use fuel injection line. That stuff is built to handle high pressure and won't flex at all. It's about $5 a foot, but worth it for something like this. Once it's on there, it should last the life of the engine. Happy 2009 everybody. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Jones" Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 7:26 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: 582 fuel pump > > I'm using 1/4" reinforced rubber gas line. It is pretty stiff stuff. That > is what the previous owner had on the engine.What line is recommended C > and is there a maximum length? > > Pat Reilly > Mod 3 582 Rebuild > > Pat, the Rotax installation manual says the fuel pump pulse line should be > no longer than 20 inches. As you know from my previous post, I had > serious fuel pump weeping problems with a 22 inch pulse line. My opinion > is: try to keep the line shorter than 12 inches. > > I use the "Pulse line from aircraft spruce. > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/pulseline.php > > Fuel system is in section 15 in the Rotax installation manual. > http://www.rotax-owner.com/manuals/d00287.pdf > > -------- > Tom Jones > Classic IV > 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp > Ellensburg, WA > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222079#222079 > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:20:18 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: carb vents From: "Tom Jones" Here's the Service Bulletin about modifying the carb vent tubes. January 8, 1992 SERVICE BULLETIN #11 SUBJECT: Rotax 582 and 532 CARBURETOR AIR VENT TUBE FROM: Denney Aerocraft Company There have been several incidents reported to Denney Aerocraft, where the above mentioned two-cycle engines have seized during normal operation. Our investigations revealed that the carburetor Air Vent Lines were Td together into a longer tube and vented out the bottom of the cowling. The longer tube, especially when vented out into the prop-wash changes the air pressure inside the carburetor causing it to run excessively lean. This can cause the engine to seize. Denney Aerocraft recommends that you leave these vent tubes as they come from the Rotax Factory. We have not experienced any fuel dripping or leaking from these factory supplied vent lines. These Vent Lines are not fuel overflow tubes. If fuel is leaking out through them, then there is a carburetion problem. NOTE: IF YOUR FAA INSPECTOR REQUIRES YOU TO VENT THESE LINES TO THE OUTSIDE. PLEASE HAVE THE INSPECTOR CALL DENNEY AEROCRAFTS TECHNICAL SERVICE DEPARTMENT. -------- Tom Jones Classic IV 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp Ellensburg, WA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222163#222163 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:23:56 AM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Rhinebeck NY94 Yup, that's my bird, and thanks, Paul. Here's a shot I took while downwind for 18 ( or whatever the ~south designation is ). The other two are ground shots facing the north and facing the south. The small gray patch in the north shot is the flat rock that I mentioned sticks up about 2-3", but it doesn't look like it here. The runway curves a bit to the right in this shot towards where the trees get a bit lower...a bit of a notch, actually. I flew in over this notch. The next shot is facing south and shows the fake buildings that they use in their skits. You can see how the runway undulates a bit. I made these last two shots (the day before I flew in) when we visited the museum the day prior to their weekend show. This is a great place to visit with our Kitfoxes, and I urge anybody who has an interest in old planes, machinery, cars, engines, etc., to take advantage of their generosity in allowing taildraggers to fly in there. but be sure to call first to get permission. You need to get in early and leave before noon, or plan to stay until past the show or about 5 pm. It is a great place for a weekend trip. Our group of 4 planes...the others were all nose gear...flew into Kingston-Ulster and tied down there for the two nights. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system; also building a new pair of snow skis do not archive On Dec 31, 2008, at 11:41 PM, Paul A. Franz, P.E. wrote: > > > > Nice photos Lynn. Is that your bird? Nice paint design job. > Of course AirNAV has info on it. There's a nice little bird's eye > view of the field on > this page: > > > -- > Paul A. Franz, P.E. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:29:57 AM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: carb vents I'm running a little late here, Tom and I don't know if this has been answered or not, but this is how I recall it. That linking line between the two carbs should have a small drain hole melted in it half way between the two and that's all. No line down behind the engine. The reason is that it enters a low pressure area which interferes with how the carbs operate that causes problems with engine operation. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Jones" Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 7:31 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: carb vents > > I was just looking at the vent lines on each side of my 582 carbs. Both > carbs are 'T' into a common line which goes out and down from the engine > compartment. I assume this was done to prevent any fires in case of > overflow. HOWEVER...I remember reading in a earlier thread that it is not > a good idea since now both carbs will have equal air pressure and could > screw up carb tuning...Thoughts ????? thanks > > It seems to me there is a Rotax or maybe an old Skystar service bulletin > that says "Thou shalt not alter those Bing Carb vent lines". > > -------- > Tom Jones > Classic IV > 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp > Ellensburg, WA > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222081#222081 > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:33:59 AM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Everybody ground loops? No, Jeff. Not weird. Many of us feel the same way. Nothing wrong with nose draggers, but nothing wrong with tail draggers either. Just a matter of preference and like someone said, "I prefer a stick over automatic". Both have pros and cons and one can haggle back and forth until the cows come home, but the end result is that it's just a matter of preference. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert ----- Original Message ----- From: "n85ae" Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 8:34 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Everybody ground loops? > > I've only flown taildraggers for the past 6-7 years, except a month ago > I flew a Diamond DA20. It's in the blood, you can't really discuss the > pro's and con's of this versus that. If you fly a taildragger, you'll > figure > out that you either like them or you don't. I love mine, I don't hate > trikes by any means, but the Kitfox with the wheel in the back is the > one I like best. > > Maybe I'm just wierd, but they're what I like so that's what I fly. I > get a feeling of great satisfaction, out of every squirrely rudder > pedaling > landing, and wouldn't trade it for anything. Especially if it's on a muddy > unpaved runway. > > I think if I were flying a plane like I drive a car, to get from here to > there > day in and day out, I'd prefer a low wing trike. But for fun, which is > what all my flying is, I greatly like high wing tailwheel's. > > Regards, > Jeff Hays > Series-5 IO-240B Taildragger > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222095#222095 > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:49:41 AM PST US From: patrick reilly Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: 582 fuel pump Deke=2C Tom=2C Guy=2C Noel and all other contributors=2C Thanks for the inf o. The fuel pump mounting location requires about 20" of hose. I am going t o use hard tube to shorten the run. Hose requires me to loop around 180 deg rees. I don't think I can twist the square brass inlet port to allow access from the other side. It doesn't look like it is threaded. It appears to be cast in place in the aluminum body of the pump. Hard tube tight bends shou ld allow me to keep the run under 12". Deke=2C CPS catalog says keep the ru n under 12". Now here is another question. I want to rebuild the pump. The rebuild kits I see are for the Mikuni pump with the straight access port tu bes. Are those two pumps identical inside=2C and use the same rebuild kit? I have the bent tube pump. The rebuild kit supplier will know. But=2C just thought I'd ask you guys. In addition=2C Noel thanks for the Tiny Tak info. I ordered one and it sure looks slick for $50. I will leave the dial one in and mount the Tiny Tak a lso. Instructions call for 3 to 4 wraps on the spark plug lead. When you wr ap both leads of the 2 plugs to one cylinder to get reading durning mag che ck=2C how many wraps per plug lead are you using? Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford=2C IL > From: fox5flyer@idealwifi.net> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com> Subject: Re : Kitfox-List: Re: 582 fuel pump> Date: Thu=2C 1 Jan 2009 09:16:12 -0500> > > What you're using will probably work fine. I read somewhere that it shoul d > be kept to 12" or less=2C if possible and it's inadvisable to use any s ort of > soft line=2C like polyurethane as it will flex (in/out) with the p iston pulses > and can inhibit the pumping action of the diaphragm. My sugg estion would be > to use fuel injection line. That stuff is built to handle high pressure and > won't flex at all. It's about $5 a foot=2C but worth i t for something like > this. Once it's on there=2C it should last the life of the engine.> Happy 2009 everybody.> > Deke Morisse> Mikado Michigan> S5/ Subaru/CAP 402+ TT> "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be vic tory=2C but progress."> - Joseph Joubert> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom Jones" > To: > S ent: Wednesday=2C December 31=2C 2008 7:26 PM> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: 58 @elltel.net>> >> > I'm using 1/4" reinforced rubber gas line. It is pretty stiff stuff. That > > is what the previous owner had on the engine.=EF =BDWhat line is recommended C > > and is there a maximum length?> > =EF =BD> > Pat Reilly> > Mod 3 582 Rebuild> >> > Pat=2C the Rotax installation manual says the fuel pump pulse line should be > > no longer than 20 inches . As you know from my previous post=2C I had > > serious fuel pump weeping problems with a 22 inch pulse line. My opinion > > is: try to keep the line shorter than 12 inches.> >> > I use the "Pulse line from aircraft spruce.> > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/pulseline.php> >> > Fuel s ystem is in section 15 in the Rotax installation manual.> > http://www.rota x-owner.com/manuals/d00287.pdf> >> > --------> > Tom Jones> > Classic IV> > 503 Rotax=2C 72 inch Two blade Warp> > Ellensburg=2C WA> >> >> >> >> > Rea d this topic online here:> >> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p ========================> _ =========> > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:32:44 AM PST US From: charles cook Subject: Kitfox-List: 582 vent tube Service bullentin #11 address the vent tibe. SEVERAL engines have "seized" because of improper venting. They are vent tubes not overflow. - Charles Cook N363KF -582 ATL=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:50:38 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: 582 fuel pump At 07:48 AM 1/1/2009, you wrote: >The rebuild kits I see are for the Mikuni pump with the straight >access port tubes. Are those two pumps identical inside, and use the >same rebuild kit? I have the bent tube pump. The rebuild kit >supplier will know. But, just thought I'd ask you guys. An aside, Pat. Last September, when I rebuilt my fuel pump, CPS sold me an aftermarket rebuild kit that I felt was junk. Beware. I will insist on Mikuni parts in the future. Guy Buchanan San Diego, CA K-IV/1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade 100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Ducar ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:08:31 AM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: 582 fuel pump If it were me, I would just mount the pump in a suitable spot that makes everything easy with short runs. Any snowmobile dealer should have a rebuild kit for it, or even a new pump for that matter. What makes you think it needs one? Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert ----- Original Message ----- From: patrick reilly To: kitfox matronics Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 10:48 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: 582 fuel pump Deke, Tom, Guy, Noel and all other contributors, Thanks for the info. The fuel pump mounting location requires about 20" of hose. I am going to use hard tube to shorten the run. Hose requires me to loop around 180 degrees. I don't think I can twist the square brass inlet port to allow access from the other side. It doesn't look like it is threaded. It appears to be cast in place in the aluminum body of the pump. Hard tube tight bends should allow me to keep the run under 12". Deke, CPS catalog says keep the run under 12". Now here is another question. I want to rebuild the pump. The rebuild kits I see are for the Mikuni pump with the straight access port tubes. Are those two pumps identical inside, and use the same rebuild kit? I have the bent tube pump. The rebuild kit supplier will know. But, just thought I'd ask you guys. In addition, Noel thanks for the Tiny Tak info. I ordered one and it sure looks slick for $50. I will leave the dial one in and mount the Tiny Tak also. Instructions call for 3 to 4 wraps on the spark plug lead. When you wrap both leads of the 2 plugs to one cylinder to get reading durning mag check, how many wraps per plug lead are you using? Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford, IL > From: fox5flyer@idealwifi.net > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: 582 fuel pump > Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 09:16:12 -0500 > > > What you're using will probably work fine. I read somewhere that it should > be kept to 12" or less, if possible and it's inadvisable to use any sort of > soft line, like polyurethane as it will flex (in/out) with the piston pulses > and can inhibit the pumping action of the diaphragm. My suggestion would be > to use fuel injection line. That stuff is built to handle high pressure and > won't flex at all. It's about $5 a foot, but worth it for something like > this. Once it's on there, it should last the life of the engine. > Happy 2009 everybody. > > Deke Morisse > Mikado Michigan > S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT > "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress." > - Joseph Joubert > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom Jones" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 7:26 PM > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: 582 fuel pump > > > > > > I'm using 1/4" reinforced rubber gas line. It is pretty stiff stuff. That > > is what the previous owner had on the engine.=EF=BDWhat line is recommended C > > and is there a maximum length? > > =EF=BD > > Pat Reilly > > Mod 3 582 Rebuild > > > > Pat, the Rotax installation manual says the fuel pump pulse line should be > > no longer than 20 inches. As you know from my previous post, I had > > serious fuel pump weeping problems with a 22 inch pulse line. My opinion > > is: try to keep the line shorter than 12 inches. > > > > I use the "Pulse line from aircraft spruce. > > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/pulseline.php > > > > Fuel system is in section 15 in the Rotax installation manual. > > http://www.rotax-owner.com/manuals/d00287.pdf > > > > -------- > > Tom Jones > > Classic IV > > 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp > > Ellensburg, WA > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222079#222079 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, &g=================== > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:33:37 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: 582 fuel pump From: "Tom Jones" > The fuel pumpmounting location requires about 20" of hose. I am going to use hard tube to shorten the run. Hose requires me to loop around 180 degrees. I don't think I can twist the square brass inlet port to allow access from the other side. Pat, you can rotate the plates that make up the fuel pump. Take it apart and you will see that you can put it back together with the pulse port fitting pointing where you want it to. It is pretty simple inside, you can't put the plates back together wrong. If you take out the diaphrams and rubber parts place them on your work table in an order so you can tell where they came from and you can put them back in where they belong. -------- Tom Jones Classic IV 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp Ellensburg, WA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222231#222231 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:40:29 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Kitfox's 25th Anniversary - 1984-2009 From: "Tom Jones" > 25 Classic IV kits will be produced with custom serial numbers for the > anniversary. Thousands of the Kitfox Classic IV's have been delivered > and have been known by several names and variations. From the Model > IV-1050 to the 2 place ultralight trainer known as the Lite squared, the > poster plane for the Light Sport Aircraft (LSA). The Kitfox Classic 4 > remains suitable for both the two-stroke and four-stroke Rotax engines > although builders have adapted many other engines choices. The Classic > IV is also very popular outside the USA in the ultralight, advanced > ultralight and microlight catagories. John, can I get one of those Kits at the 1994 price I paid for mine? Just kidding. You can tell I am partial to the Classic 4. -------- Tom Jones Classic IV 503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp Ellensburg, WA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222232#222232 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:54:17 PM PST US From: patrick reilly Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: 582 fuel pump Tom=2C Thanks for the tip. I won't have to spend time trying to figure that out now. I am going to rebuild that pump. It has been laying around for aw hile. I will rotate the top plate when I rebuild it and be able to shorten that run from 12" to around 8". Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford=2C IL> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: 582 fuel pump> From: nahsikhs@ell tel.net> Date: Thu=2C 1 Jan 2009 12:31:36 -0800> To: kitfox-list@matronics. > > > > The fuel pump=EF=BDmounting location requires about 20" of hose. I am going to use hard tube to shorten the run. Hose requires me to loop a round 180 degrees. I don't think I can twist the square brass inlet port to allow access from the other side.> > > Pat=2C you can rotate the plates th at make up the fuel pump. Take it apart and you will see that you can put i t back together with the pulse port fitting pointing where you want it to. It is pretty simple inside=2C you can't put the plates back together wrong. If you take out the diaphrams and rubber parts place them on your work tab le in an order so you can tell where they came from and you can put them ba ck in where they belong.> > --------> Tom Jones> Classic IV> 503 Rotax=2C 7 2 inch Two blade Warp> Ellensburg=2C WA> > > > > Read this topic online her e:> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222231#222231> > > > > =================> > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 03:02:03 PM PST US From: patrick reilly Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: 582 fuel pump Deke=2C The pump has been laying around for a couple of years. A rebuild ki t is $15. For $15 and a 1/2 hours time=2C I will feel cofident that the pum p is operable. And Tom says I can rotate the top plate 180 degrees. That wi ll give me a vacumn line run ao about 8" that should be short enough. Pat Reilly From: fox5flyer@idealwifi.netTo: kitfox-list@matronics.comSubject: Re: Kitf ox-List: Re: 582 fuel pumpDate: Thu=2C 1 Jan 2009 12:07:33 -0500 If it were me=2C I would just mount the pump in a suitable spot that makes everything easy with short runs. Any snowmobile dealer should have a rebui ld kit for it=2C or even a new pump for that matter. What makes you think it needs one? Deke MorisseMikado MichiganS5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory=2C but progress."- Joseph Joubert ----- Original Message ----- From: patrick reilly Sent: Thursday=2C January 01=2C 2009 10:48 AM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: 582 fuel pump Deke=2C Tom=2C Guy=2C Noel and all other contributors=2C Thanks for the inf o. The fuel pump mounting location requires about 20" of hose. I am going t o use hard tube to shorten the run. Hose requires me to loop around 180 deg rees. I don't think I can twist the square brass inlet port to allow access from the other side. It doesn't look like it is threaded. It appears to be cast in place in the aluminum body of the pump. Hard tube tight bends shou ld allow me to keep the run under 12". Deke=2C CPS catalog says keep the ru n under 12". Now here is another question. I want to rebuild the pump. The rebuild kits I see are for the Mikuni pump with the straight access port tu bes. Are those two pumps identical inside=2C and use the same rebuild kit? I have the bent tube pump. The rebuild kit supplier will know. But=2C just thought I'd ask you guys. In addition=2C Noel thanks for the Tiny Tak info. I ordered one and it sure looks slick for $50. I will leave the dial one i n and mount the Tiny Tak also. Instructions call for 3 to 4 wraps on the sp ark plug lead. When you wrap both leads of the 2 plugs to one cylinder to g et reading durning mag check=2C how many wraps per plug lead are you using? Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 RebuildRockford=2C IL > From: fox5flyer@idealwifi.ne t> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com> Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: 582 fuel pu mp> Date: Thu=2C 1 Jan 2009 09:16:12 -0500> > --> Kitfox-List message poste d by: "fox5flyer" > > What you're using will proba bly work fine. I read somewhere that it should > be kept to 12" or less=2C if possible and it's inadvisable to use any sort of > soft line=2C like pol yurethane as it will flex (in/out) with the piston pulses > and can inhibit the pumping action of the diaphragm. My suggestion would be > to use fuel injection line. That stuff is built to handle high pressure and > won't fle x at all. It's about $5 a foot=2C but worth it for something like > this. O nce it's on there=2C it should last the life of the engine.> Happy 2009 eve rybody.> > Deke Morisse> Mikado Michigan> S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT> "The aim o f an argument or discussion should not be victory=2C but progress."> - Jose ph Joubert> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom Jones" > To: > Sent: Wednesday=2C December 31 =2C 2008 7:26 PM> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: 582 fuel pump> > > > --> Kitfox -List message posted by: "Tom Jones" > >> > I'm using 1/4" reinforced rubber gas line. It is pretty stiff stuff. That > > is what the previous owner had on the engine.=EF=BDWhat line is recommended C > > and is there a maximum length?> > =EF=BD> > Pat Reilly> > Mod 3 582 R ebuild> >> > Pat=2C the Rotax installation manual says the fuel pump pulse line should be > > no longer than 20 inches. As you know from my previous p ost=2C I had > > serious fuel pump weeping problems with a 22 inch pulse li ne. My opinion > > is: try to keep the line shorter than 12 inches.> >> > I use the "Pulse line from aircraft spruce.> > http://www.aircraftspruce.com /catalog/appages/pulseline.php> >> > Fuel system is in section 15 in the Ro tax installation manual.> > http://www.rotax-owner.com/manuals/d00287.pdf> >> > --------> > Tom Jones> > Classic IV> > 503 Rotax=2C 72 inch Two blade Warp> > Ellensburg=2C WA> >> >> >> >> > Read this topic online here:> >> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222079#222079> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > >= Archive Search & Download=2C 7-Day Browse=2C Chat =2C FAQ=2C&g====================> > > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chr ef="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref ="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:04:49 PM PST US From: patrick reilly Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: 582 fuel pump Guy=2C Thanks for the heads up. I will insist on a genuine Mikuni rebuild k it. I thought CPS was a top drawer supplier? Pat Reilly> Date: Thu=2C 1 Jan 2009 08:49:31 -0800> To: kitfox-list@matroni cs.com> From: bnn@nethere.com> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: 582 fuel pump> 07:48 AM 1/1/2009=2C you wrote:> >The rebuild kits I see are for the Mikuni pump with the straight > >access port tubes. Are those two pumps identical inside=2C and use the > >same rebuild kit? I have the bent tube pump. The rebuild kit > >supplier will know. But=2C just thought I'd ask you guys.> > An aside=2C Pat. Last September=2C when I rebuilt my fuel pump=2C CPS sold > me an aftermarket rebuild kit that I felt was junk. Beware. I will > ins ist on Mikuni parts in the future.> > > Guy Buchanan> San Diego=2C CA> K-IV /1200 w/ 582 C-box & Warp 3 blade> 100% and flying thanks mostly to Bob Duc =================> > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:42:43 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Floats with the new exhaust pipe. Just wondering about this... When I was trained to fly C-172 I was trained to hold attitudes that were similar to conventional gear just before touchdown. I can say without any fear of contradiction that my first landings were not the best in the world... The C-172 seemed to forgive the fact I was intent on landing sideways. With a little practice I stopped sliding around like a drunken sailor. Take offs were another quintal of fish.. My first take offs were basically firewall the C and slowly pull back until I left the ground. Now the question... Where do most ground loops occur in both tricycle and conventional gear? It is easy to see how a tricycle stays straighter on touchdown than a conventional... but it is also easy to see how a tricycle gear may not handle downwind as well as a conventional. Do the tricycle gear handle crosswind taxis better? My interest in this is just slightly academic as I fly floats and in this country there is no endorsement for conventional gear. If I were to try the black doughnut thingies (wheels)though I would get some instruction on them. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dave Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 5:27 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Floats with the new exhaust pipe. > Dave: > > Do you have any video to compare take off with and without your new pipe on > the 582? > > Noel Nope, only documentation I can tell you is that oN a GSC prop I run + 2 degrees more pitch that with Stock skystar exhaust. Also the fuel burn seems a bit less ( about 1/2 gallon /hour) less and with more power. The pipe is very tight inside the cowl but it works well. power band starts about 4800 to 5200 rpm. I am keeping it conservative to ensure the engine has a long life. A 582 you can get about 80 hp out of but life will be shortened and fuel burn would go up. Rotax exhaust makes the 582 run a bit rich with the Mods that Skystar did to the exhaust and hence it had likely about 56 to 58 HP i figure. I would figure that I am around 65 to 68 hp here. -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada Flying Videos and Kitfox Info http://www.cfisher.com/ Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2604#202604 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 04:22:23 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Tail dragger options vs tricycle gear, was: Re:Everybody ground loops? I think the term conventional came from WW1 when most plane on both sides had tailwheels... The reasons were there were few if any truly level landing fields (areodromes). My father mentioned to me that a nose wheel will tend to dig in if it hits even a small hole while as tail wheel will pull itself out of the same hole. That's why all the great bush planes of the past, Baevers, Otters and Norsemen were all conventional gear. They also were easier to fit with skis. If there was a perceived weak point it was the conventional gear planes were often reinforced around the instrument panel to be fitted to floats. Even my 'Fox has a reinforcing Y under the plane to strengthen it on floats. Older planes were at best slow planes. Having a nice small wheel in the back twenty feet from the prop made a lot more sense than having a honking great wheel and support blocking the wash from a few inches behind the prop. I think, but am not sure, that the first major use of tricycle gear planes was for bombers. Engines were either pusher or out on the wings so the drag wasn't as great a factor. And in later years retractable gear became the norm so drag was no longer an issue. My best guess would be the tricycle configuration was originally developed not because it was easier to land but because it would be easier to load bombs in the bay if the plane was level. Consider trying to load a bomb bay in say a DC-3 or a trimotor... The bombs would have to be lifted in place and tilted up to fit. At the same time most fighters were the conventional more aerodynamic gear and any bombs they carrier were smaller and mounted outside under the wings. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 11:16 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Tail dragger options vs tricycle gear, was: Re:Everybody ground loops? I found the term "conventional" rather strange too, when I first heard it applied to taildraggers. At first I thought the book "Taming the taildragger" was referring to nose gear when they mentioned "conventional gear", but I was wrong. For some reason this tag has stuck, even though most gear nowadays is the nose gear. Apparently Rhinebeck...according to the guy who walked the field with me the day before I flew in there.....had a nose gear come in there and being the field that it is, with a rock or two here and there, and slightly undulating, and being grass, the plane bent, broke, or otherwise hurt the nose wheel, and thus the rule. So THAT'S the reason for the wooden planks, eh? : ) Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system; also building a new pair of snow skis do not archive On Dec 31, 2008, at 5:08 PM, Michael Gibbs wrote: > > > Lynn sez: > >> ...when I flew my Kitfox taildragger to New York to visit the Old >> Rhinebeck Aerodrome...they asked me if it was a taildragger and I >> told them yes it was, and they said come on in. They had an >> incident with a nosegear plane and their insurance company said no >> more nose gears, thank you. > > I find that very hard to swallow (but I'll admit that the > taildraggers just seem "right" at a place like Old Rhinebeck). > That's like saying they had a problem with an airplane that had > upholstered seats so now you have to sit on a wood plank. :-) > >> Besides, a nose gear plane landing at a field where conventional >> gear WWI planes are flying? > > There's nothing conventional about taildraggers. If "conventional" > refers to the origins of powered flight, the earliest aircraft had > skids or tricycle or even quad wheel arrangements for the first > several years. On the other hand, if the term refers to what is > most common, that would surely be tricycle gear airplanes in this > day and age. Maybe its just the conventional use of the term > "conventional," which would, of course, be taildraggers. :-) > > Mike G. > N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster > Phoenix, AZ > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 04:38:41 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Floats with the new exhaust pipe. Oops! I meant to ask this question on the discussion tail dragger options vs tricycle thread Must be the egg nog or shortage thereof :-) Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 8:10 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Floats with the new exhaust pipe. Just wondering about this... When I was trained to fly C-172 I was trained to hold attitudes that were similar to conventional gear just before touchdown. I can say without any fear of contradiction that my first landings were not the best in the world... The C-172 seemed to forgive the fact I was intent on landing sideways. With a little practice I stopped sliding around like a drunken sailor. Take offs were another quintal of fish.. My first take offs were basically firewall the C and slowly pull back until I left the ground. Now the question... Where do most ground loops occur in both tricycle and conventional gear? It is easy to see how a tricycle stays straighter on touchdown than a conventional... but it is also easy to see how a tricycle gear may not handle downwind as well as a conventional. Do the tricycle gear handle crosswind taxis better? My interest in this is just slightly academic as I fly floats and in this country there is no endorsement for conventional gear. If I were to try the black doughnut thingies (wheels)though I would get some instruction on them. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dave Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 5:27 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Floats with the new exhaust pipe. > Dave: > > Do you have any video to compare take off with and without your new pipe on > the 582? > > Noel Nope, only documentation I can tell you is that oN a GSC prop I run + 2 degrees more pitch that with Stock skystar exhaust. Also the fuel burn seems a bit less ( about 1/2 gallon /hour) less and with more power. The pipe is very tight inside the cowl but it works well. power band starts about 4800 to 5200 rpm. I am keeping it conservative to ensure the engine has a long life. A 582 you can get about 80 hp out of but life will be shortened and fuel burn would go up. Rotax exhaust makes the 582 run a bit rich with the Mods that Skystar did to the exhaust and hence it had likely about 56 to 58 HP i figure. I would figure that I am around 65 to 68 hp here. -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada Flying Videos and Kitfox Info http://www.cfisher.com/ Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2604#202604 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 04:44:43 PM PST US From: "Lowell Fitt" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Floats with the new exhaust pipe. Noel, I will take a stab on this one - an opinion and an example. My feeling is that tricycle will will be a bit easier to taxi in cross winds. That said, I was a passenger in a flight of three Kifoxes, one of our list moderators was in the flight of three and can verify this. We landed at a Northern California airport for fuel on our way back from Oregon. They were reporting 32 kts from the North - straight down the runway.. We obviously landed North, but the taxi to the fuel pumps took us at exactly 90 to the wind for about 100 ft. or so. None of the airplanes had difficulty maintaining directional conrol, though it requires vigilance and a lot of memory as to what the approriate stick positions should be depending on where, relative to the wind, the nose is pointing. Several years ago, the same three minus the list moderator plus five others once landed in similar winds - reported at 28 - at about 90 to the runway. We needed a wing walker to exit our airplanes at the pumps to avoid the airplanes weathercocking. None of the airplanes did anything unusual - groundloop or veer of the hard surface. We stayed the night. This place was Jackpot, Nevada I still feel extremely lucky with that landing. Lowell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Noel Loveys" Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 3:39 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Floats with the new exhaust pipe. > > Just wondering about this... When I was trained to fly C-172 I was > trained > to hold attitudes that were similar to conventional gear just before > touchdown. I can say without any fear of contradiction that my first > landings were not the best in the world... The C-172 seemed to forgive > the > fact I was intent on landing sideways. With a little practice I stopped > sliding around like a drunken sailor. > > Take offs were another quintal of fish.. My first take offs were > basically > firewall the C and slowly pull back until I left the ground. > > Now the question... Where do most ground loops occur in both tricycle and > conventional gear? It is easy to see how a tricycle stays straighter on > touchdown than a conventional... but it is also easy to see how a tricycle > gear may not handle downwind as well as a conventional. Do the tricycle > gear handle crosswind taxis better? > > My interest in this is just slightly academic as I fly floats and in this > country there is no endorsement for conventional gear. If I were to try > the > black doughnut thingies (wheels)though I would get some instruction on > them. > > > Noel > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dave > Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 5:27 PM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Floats with the new exhaust pipe. > > > >> Dave: >> >> Do you have any video to compare take off with and without your new pipe > on >> the 582? >> >> Noel > > > Nope, only documentation I can tell you is that oN a GSC prop I run + 2 > degrees more pitch that with Stock skystar exhaust. Also the fuel burn > seems a bit less ( about 1/2 gallon /hour) less and with more power. > > The pipe is very tight inside the cowl but it works well. power band > starts > about 4800 to 5200 rpm. I am keeping it conservative to ensure the engine > has a long life. A 582 you can get about 80 hp out of but life will be > shortened and fuel burn would go up. Rotax exhaust makes the 582 run a > bit > rich with the Mods that Skystar did to the exhaust and hence it had likely > about 56 to 58 HP i figure. I would figure that I am around 65 to 68 hp > here. > > -------- > Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada > Flying Videos and Kitfox Info > http://www.cfisher.com/ > Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth > http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2604#202604 > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 05:19:30 PM PST US From: "Cudnohufsky's" <7suds@Chartermi.net> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Floats with the new exhaust pipe. Noel, The big difference between the tail dragger and the nose gear that influences ground looping when landing with a side load or having some sideways drift when you touch down is that the CG in the nose gear airplane is ahead of the main gear and tends to straighten out a sideways landing, on the other hand a tail wheel airplane's CG is aft of the main gear and tends to exaggerate or continue the sideways motion on landing thus producing a ground loop. Lloyd -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 5:40 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Floats with the new exhaust pipe. Just wondering about this... When I was trained to fly C-172 I was trained to hold attitudes that were similar to conventional gear just before touchdown. I can say without any fear of contradiction that my first landings were not the best in the world... The C-172 seemed to forgive the fact I was intent on landing sideways. With a little practice I stopped sliding around like a drunken sailor. Take offs were another quintal of fish.. My first take offs were basically firewall the C and slowly pull back until I left the ground. Now the question... Where do most ground loops occur in both tricycle and conventional gear? It is easy to see how a tricycle stays straighter on touchdown than a conventional... but it is also easy to see how a tricycle gear may not handle downwind as well as a conventional. Do the tricycle gear handle crosswind taxis better? My interest in this is just slightly academic as I fly floats and in this country there is no endorsement for conventional gear. If I were to try the black doughnut thingies (wheels)though I would get some instruction on them. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dave Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 5:27 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Floats with the new exhaust pipe. > Dave: > > Do you have any video to compare take off with and without your new pipe on > the 582? > > Noel Nope, only documentation I can tell you is that oN a GSC prop I run + 2 degrees more pitch that with Stock skystar exhaust. Also the fuel burn seems a bit less ( about 1/2 gallon /hour) less and with more power. The pipe is very tight inside the cowl but it works well. power band starts about 4800 to 5200 rpm. I am keeping it conservative to ensure the engine has a long life. A 582 you can get about 80 hp out of but life will be shortened and fuel burn would go up. Rotax exhaust makes the 582 run a bit rich with the Mods that Skystar did to the exhaust and hence it had likely about 56 to 58 HP i figure. I would figure that I am around 65 to 68 hp here. -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada Flying Videos and Kitfox Info http://www.cfisher.com/ Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2604#202604 Checked by AVG. 8:44 AM Checked by AVG. 8:44 AM ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 05:23:20 PM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Floats with the new exhaust pipe. If I remember correctly, the tricycle gear, along with a steering wheel instead of a stick, came along because the industry was trying to make airplanes like cars, easy to "drive", therefore easier to sell. Nothing more than that. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lowell Fitt" Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 7:39 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Floats with the new exhaust pipe. > > Noel, I will take a stab on this one - an opinion and an example. My > feeling is that tricycle will will be a bit easier to taxi in cross winds. > That said, I was a passenger in a flight of three Kifoxes, one of our list > moderators was in the flight of three and can verify this. We landed at a > Northern California airport for fuel on our way back from Oregon. They > were reporting 32 kts from the North - straight down the runway.. We > obviously landed North, but the taxi to the fuel pumps took us at exactly > 90 to the wind for about 100 ft. or so. None of the airplanes had > difficulty maintaining directional conrol, though it requires vigilance > and a lot of memory as to what the approriate stick positions should be > depending on where, relative to the wind, the nose is pointing. > > Several years ago, the same three minus the list moderator plus five > others once landed in similar winds - reported at 28 - at about 90 to the > runway. We needed a wing walker to exit our airplanes at the pumps to > avoid the airplanes weathercocking. None of the airplanes did anything > unusual - groundloop or veer of the hard surface. We stayed the night. > This place was Jackpot, Nevada I still feel extremely lucky with that > landing. > > Lowell > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Noel Loveys" > To: > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 3:39 PM > Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Floats with the new exhaust pipe. > > >> >> Just wondering about this... When I was trained to fly C-172 I was >> trained >> to hold attitudes that were similar to conventional gear just before >> touchdown. I can say without any fear of contradiction that my first >> landings were not the best in the world... The C-172 seemed to forgive >> the >> fact I was intent on landing sideways. With a little practice I stopped >> sliding around like a drunken sailor. >> >> Take offs were another quintal of fish.. My first take offs were >> basically >> firewall the C and slowly pull back until I left the ground. >> >> Now the question... Where do most ground loops occur in both tricycle >> and >> conventional gear? It is easy to see how a tricycle stays straighter on >> touchdown than a conventional... but it is also easy to see how a >> tricycle >> gear may not handle downwind as well as a conventional. Do the tricycle >> gear handle crosswind taxis better? >> >> My interest in this is just slightly academic as I fly floats and in this >> country there is no endorsement for conventional gear. If I were to try >> the >> black doughnut thingies (wheels)though I would get some instruction on >> them. >> >> >> Noel >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dave >> Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 5:27 PM >> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Floats with the new exhaust pipe. >> >> >> >>> Dave: >>> >>> Do you have any video to compare take off with and without your new pipe >> on >>> the 582? >>> >>> Noel >> >> >> >> Nope, only documentation I can tell you is that oN a GSC prop I run + >> 2 >> degrees more pitch that with Stock skystar exhaust. Also the fuel burn >> seems a bit less ( about 1/2 gallon /hour) less and with more power. >> >> The pipe is very tight inside the cowl but it works well. power band >> starts >> about 4800 to 5200 rpm. I am keeping it conservative to ensure the engine >> has a long life. A 582 you can get about 80 hp out of but life will be >> shortened and fuel burn would go up. Rotax exhaust makes the 582 run a >> bit >> rich with the Mods that Skystar did to the exhaust and hence it had >> likely >> about 56 to 58 HP i figure. I would figure that I am around 65 to 68 hp >> here. >> >> -------- >> Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada >> Flying Videos and Kitfox Info >> http://www.cfisher.com/ >> Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth >> http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2604#202604 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 05:31:13 PM PST US From: "Noel Loveys" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Everybody ground loops? Is there any NDT way to test the tail wheel spring at regular intervals. I'm thinking eddy current but not sure if it will work on ferrous metals. Lots of FBOs have eddy current machines not to mention magnetic flux and dye penetrate. Dye penetrant should work same as flux... check the spring every annual. It may not be perfect but it's better than ripping up your rudder. Noel From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gary.algate@sandvik.com Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 4:07 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Everybody ground loops? I didn't ground loop today but I did break my tailwheel spring. I had just landed and was taxiing past the main viewing area (of course) when I heard a crunch and felt a bump. I knew straight away what had happened and really didn't want to get out and see the damage to my rudder. Today was a good day as the spring broke just above the wheel and there was enough left to hold the rudder about 1/2" above the ground. I have the 2 x leaf spring version and I check it before each flight so there was little or no warning. I am going to have a three leaf spring manufactured this week! Gary Gary Algate Classic 4 Jab 2200 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. "This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe and happy Christmas". John Allen Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com 31/12/2008 05:50 PM Please respond to kitfox-list@matronics.com To kitfox-list@matronics.com cc Subject Kitfox-List: Everybody ground loops? In response to Paul Folbrecht who wrote: > I'm considering buying either a half share or a whole share in a completed > Fox (TD). I have no TD time and while becoming taildragger-proficient is > appealing to me, ground-looping one is *not*! > > So.... assuming I get a GOOD TG endorsement from a GOOD instructor, and > GOOD training in the Kitfox, honestly, should I _seriously_ expect to > ground-loop it at *some* point? > > How about this - everybody who's got 50, 100, 200, 500, etc. hours in > Kitfoxes while never looping raise your hand! :) The following is just my opinion for what it is worth to try to answer the question you pose for someone considering transition from heavy nosewheels to a light taildragger Kitfox. I don't think it is hours that determine whether a groundloop will occur. I have flown over 5 hours at a time with only one takeoff and one landing. It seems that there are a number of factors that are involved, some of which are listed below, not in a particular order. 1. Design of the aircraft. Width of mains, wider is better (Grove gear is wider than tube gear on Kitfox). Springiness of gear, stiffness, ability to absorb shock without bouncing (I found tube gear stiff and bouncy). Ability to get tail down in flare (difficult in mine, especially with full flaps). Side area exposed to crosswinds - low on a Kitfox is good. Visibility over the nose when flaring (none in mine, I use peripheral vision of the ground plane). Landing speed, slower is better. Speedsters land faster due to shorter wings and probably the undercambered wing models (I, II, III) land much slower. 2. Construction of Aircraft. Alignment of wheels (I had to align my tube gear). Type tires, square shoulder (I had) or round (I have now). Proper angle of tailwheel. Tailwheel spring slack. Gas line on inside of firewall that will catch the sole of your shoe when stepping on the brake (I had to fix that). Type of brakes installed (mine were very weak). Dual brakes (easier to get an instructor; mine has brakes on LH side only, I had to learn to fly it from RH side first). Type of tailwheel (I have never changed mine). Type of prop; the Rotax cannot be idled below 1800; the Ivoprop I have on it now acts like a speed brake in flatter pitch. 3. Maintenance of Aircraft. Brakes, too good is better but can grab or nose you over if you apply them hard; too bad won't arrest an incipient groundloop, sticking can cause one. Tire type and condition; you don't want a flat. Alignment (of tube gear). Tailwheel condition. Tailwheel spring (can loosen or break). Tailwheel turning springs and fasteners condition (failure will leave you without steering). Bungees (if you have them, you don't want them to break; also be sure you have snare cables attached). Making sure all control linkages and surfaces are fully functional. 4. Experience of pilot. Comfort level in the aircraft. Ability to be on top of it, ahead of it, to make it do what is wanted and not overcontrol it. Airspeed control; knowing and using appropriate speeds especially in the area of reverse command over the fence and what is needed for turns and gusts. Using tailwheel steering until rudder can take over on takeoff (mine has little rudder authority at first and wants to shoot off to the left if you lift the tail early). Adding rudder with throttle. Number of takeoffs and landings, especially recent experience. More make you more in control. Crosswind technique and experience, amount and strength of wind. This is needed in mountainous areas where runways are not always oriented into the prevailing wind. Techniques for gusts. Mountain strips. Type of surface, hard, soft, grass, dirt, gravel, wet, soft, rough, short, sloped. 5. Operation. Loaded Weight, heavier lands faster but is not as apt to "float" if you come in too fast. CG, aft makes lifting tail harder but helps get tail down on landing. Keeping controls free. Taxiing technique with wind. Paying attention at all times while moving; no distractions. S-turns. Pilot condition. You will find your technique flawless at times and sub-par at other times. My own observations: Despite having learned in and flown mostly taildraggers in the past, I found my Kitfox IV Speedster to be a handful at first. It was not for beginners, the way it was set up. I never found out why. The Grove gear finally tamed it. It is not easy to find an instructor for Kitfoxes. The main tailwheel instructor I know in our area will not fly it, having tried one he does not want to add a groundloop to his resume. Experience in a Champ is not the same, since by contrast you can see well out the front, it lands slowly, takes lots of control movement, and has very forgiving gear. A Champ is so docile it makes a Cessna 150 seem hard to land by comparison. The Kitfox is sensitive on the controls, calling for a light but authoritative touch. It will do just what you ask it to do, whether or not you realize what you are asking of it. You will consider a Cessna to fly like a truck after flying a Kitfox. You can do it if you make the commitment to develop and practice good technique on every takeoff and landing; lots of people with varying experience do it successfully as you can see from the list. If you start on a suitable airport with a well-designed aircraft, assembled and maintained properly, practice a lot, keep current, pay attention, and expand your envelope as your experience increases, you should be OK. Tricky conditions are, if course, riskier. Even if you stay on runways, cross-countries can present you with challenging conditions for which you have to be prepared to handle when you are tired. It is not going to be as forgiving of slamming it into the ground nor will it jerk itself straight out of a bad landing like a nosewheel-equipped Cessna will. JA KF IV Speedster @ O70 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 05:46:22 PM PST US From: sbennett3 Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Floats with the new exhaust pipe. Lloyd, Unless you continue to fly the plane even once its on the ground. What produces a ground loop is the pilot quits controlling the plane thinking "ground" is safe and job is complete. You're not finished flying a td until you can walk next to it as fast as you are taxiing and in no wind. I agree with all else you said, but crab landings don't equal ground loops. You just gotta fix it before the loop happens... Steve Bennett Classic 4 912 997 hrs No loops (one almost) In a message dated 01/01/09 20:20:02 Eastern Standard Time, 7suds@Chartermi.net writes: Noel, The big difference between the tail dragger and the nose gear that influences ground looping when landing with a side load or having some sideways drift when you touch down is that the CG in the nose gear airplane is ahead of the main gear and tends to straighten out a sideways landing, on the other hand a tail wheel airplane's CG is aft of the main gear and tends to exaggerate or continue the sideways motion on landing thus producing a ground loop. Lloyd -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 5:40 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Floats with the new exhaust pipe. Just wondering about this... When I was trained to fly C-172 I was trained to hold attitudes that were similar to conventional gear just before touchdown. I can say without any fear of contradiction that my first landings were not the best in the world... The C-172 seemed to forgive the fact I was intent on landing sideways. With a little practice I stopped sliding around like a drunken sailor. Take offs were another quintal of fish.. My first take offs were basically firewall the C and slowly pull back until I left the ground. Now the question... Where do most ground loops occur in both tricycle and conventional gear? It is easy to see how a tricycle stays straighter on touchdown than a conventional... but it is also easy to see how a tricycle gear may not handle downwind as well as a conventional. Do the tricycle gear handle crosswind taxis better? My interest in this is just slightly academic as I fly floats and in this country there is no endorsement for conventional gear. If I were to try the black doughnut thingies (wheels)though I would get some instruction on them. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dave Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 5:27 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Floats with the new exhaust pipe. > Dave: > > Do you have any video to compare take off with and without your new pipe on > the 582? > > Noel Nope, only documentation I can tell you is that oN a GSC prop I run + 2 degrees more pitch that with Stock skystar exhaust. Also the fuel burn seems a bit less ( about 1/2 gallon /hour) less and with more power. The pipe is very tight inside the cowl but it works well. power band starts about 4800 to 5200 rpm. I am keeping it conservative to ensure the engine has a long life. A 582 you can get about 80 hp out of but life will be shortened and fuel burn would go up. Rotax exhaust makes the 582 run a bit rich with the Mods that Skystar did to the exhaust and hence it had likely about 56 to 58 HP i figure. I would figure that I am around 65 to 68 hp here. -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada Flying Videos and Kitfox Info http://www.cfisher.com/ Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2604#202604 Checked by AVG. 8:44 AM Checked by AVG. 8:44 AM ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 06:22:41 PM PST US From: Michael Gibbs Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Floats with the new exhaust pipe. Deke sez: >If I remember correctly, the tricycle gear, along with a steering >wheel instead of a stick, came along because the industry was trying >to make airplanes like cars, easy to "drive", therefore easier to >sell. Nothing more than that. Didn't both of those things originate with airline and military aircraft? Hardly seems like those markets would care about being car-like. In heavy aircraft like bombers and airliners, being able to easily place two hands on the yoke would allow more muscle for control movements. I once had a ride in a Ford Tri-motor and the pilot told me that the plane is very heavy in roll--sometimes help from the copilot is necessary. As with all things in aviation (and life, for that matter), everything is a compromise. Choices between yokes and sticks, nose wheels and tail wheels, etc., all provide fertile ground for the aircraft designer's imagination. What does all this have to do with floats and exhaust pipes again? :-) Mike G. N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster Phoenix, AZ ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 06:24:59 PM PST US From: "Cudnohufsky's" <7suds@Chartermi.net> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Floats with the new exhaust pipe. Steve, I was not implying that a crab landing equals a ground loop, I was merely saying that landing with a side load, that is an actual touchdown that slips you sideways in your seat, not just a crabbed approach is more likely to induce a ground loop in a tail wheel aircraft than in a nose wheel aircraft because of the CG location, and I agree completely you are not done flying a tail wheel aircraft just because it is on the ground. Lloyd From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of sbennett3 Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 7:43 PM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Floats with the new exhaust pipe. Lloyd, Unless you continue to fly the plane even once its on the ground. What produces a ground loop is the pilot quits controlling the plane thinking "ground" is safe and job is complete. You're not finished flying a td until you can walk next to it as fast as you are taxiing and in no wind. I agree with all else you said, but crab landings don't equal ground loops. You just gotta fix it before the loop happens... Steve Bennett Classic 4 912 997 hrs No loops (one almost) In a message dated 01/01/09 20:20:02 Eastern Standard Time, 7suds@Chartermi.net writes: Noel, The big difference between the tail dragger and the nose gear that influences ground looping when landing with a side load or having some sideways drift when you touch down is that the CG in the nose gear airplane is ahead of the main gear and tends to straighten out a sideways landing, on the other hand a tail wheel airplane's CG is aft of the main gear and tends to exaggerate or continue the sideways motion on landing thus producing a ground loop. Lloyd -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 5:40 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Floats with the new exhaust pipe. Just wondering about this... When I was trained to fly C-172 I was trained to hold attitudes that were similar to conventional gear just before touchdown. I can say without any fear of contradiction that my first landings were not the best in the world... The C-172 seemed to forgive the fact I was intent on landing sideways. With a little practice I stopped sliding around like a drunken sailor. Take offs were another quintal of fish.. My first take offs were basically firewall the C and slowly pull back until I left the ground. Now the question... Where do most ground loops occur in both tricycle and conventional gear? It is easy to see how a tricycle stays straighter on touchdown than a conventional... but it is also easy to see how a tricycle gear may not handle downwind as well as a conventional. Do the tricycle gear handle crosswind taxis better? M y interest in this is just slightly academic as I fly floats and in this country there is no endorsement for conventional gear. If I were to try the black doughnut thingies (wheels)though I would get some instruction on them. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dave Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 5:27 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Floats with the new exhaust pipe. > Dave: > > Do you have any video to compare take off with and without your new pipe on > the 582? > > Noel Nope, only documentation I can tell you is that oN a GSC prop I run + 2 degrees more pitch that with Stock skystar exhaust. Also the fuel burn seems a bit less ( about 1/2 gallon /hour) less and with more power. The pipe is very tight inside the cowl but it works well. power band starts about 4800 to 5200 rpm. I am keeping it conservative to ensure the engine has a long life. A 582 you can get about 80 hp out of but life will be shortened and fuel burn would go up. Rotax exhaust makes the 582 run a bit rich with the Mods that Skystar did to the exhaust and hence it had likely about 56 to 58 HP i figure. I would figure that I am around 65 to 68 hp here. -------- Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada Flying Videos and Kitfox Info http://www.cfisher.com/ Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 2604#202604 Checked by AVG. 8:44 AM Che c _____ Get a free MP3 every day with the Spinner.com Toolbar. HYPERLINK "http://toolbar.aol.com/spinner/download.html?ncid=emlweusdown00000020"Get it Now. "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List"http://www.matronics.com/Nav igator?Kitfox-List "http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribution Checked by AVG. 8:44 AM Checked by AVG. 8:44 AM ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 06:49:21 PM PST US From: Lynn Matteson Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Everybody ground loops? Another way to insure not ripping up your rudder....if anything is SURE....is to install a dual main-leaf tailwheel spring, with or without a helper/booster spring leaf. These are known as 3-leaf springs, and available from John and Debra McBean. These springs have both of the main leafs (leaves?) bolted at both ends, thus insuring (there's that word again) that if one main leaf fails the other will hold the tailwheel in place...unless you've really p-ssed off Lady Luck. Lynn Matteson Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs Sensenich 62x46 flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition system; also building a new pair of snow skis On Jan 1, 2009, at 8:28 PM, Noel Loveys wrote: > Is there any NDT way to test the tail wheel spring at regular > intervals. Im thinking eddy current but not sure if it will work > on ferrous metals. Lots of FBOs have eddy current machines not to > mention magnetic flux and dye penetrate. Dye penetrant should > work same as flux... check the spring every annual. > > > It may not be perfect but its better than ripping up your rudder. > > > Noel > > > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox- > list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gary.algate@sandvik.com > Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 4:07 AM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Everybody ground loops? > > > I didn't ground loop today but I did break my tailwheel spring. I > had just landed and was taxiing past the main viewing area (of > course) when I heard a crunch and felt a bump. > > I knew straight away what had happened and really didn't want to > get out and see the damage to my rudder. > > Today was a good day as the spring broke just above the wheel and > there was enough left to hold the rudder about 1/2" above the > ground. I have the 2 x leaf spring version and I check it before > each flight so there was little or no warning. > > I am going to have a three leaf spring manufactured this week! > > Gary > > Gary Algate > Classic 4 Jab 2200 > Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655 > > > This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the > addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of > this message by persons or entities other than the intended > recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, > kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the > message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for > any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may > arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. > This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we > have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe > and happy Christmas". > > > John Allen > > Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com > 31/12/2008 05:50 PM > Please respond to > kitfox-list@matronics.com > > To > > kitfox-list@matronics.com > > cc > > Subject > > Kitfox-List: Everybody ground loops? > > > > In response to Paul Folbrecht who wrote: > > > I'm considering buying either a half share or a whole share in a > completed > > Fox (TD). I have no TD time and while becoming taildragger- > proficient is > > appealing to me, ground-looping one is *not*! > > > > So.... assuming I get a GOOD TG endorsement from a GOOD > instructor, and > > GOOD training in the Kitfox, honestly, should I _seriously_ > expect to > > ground-loop it at *some* point? > > > > How about this - everybody who's got 50, 100, 200, 500, etc. > hours in > > Kitfoxes while never looping raise your hand! :) > > The following is just my opinion for what it is worth to try to > answer the question you pose for someone considering transition > from heavy nosewheels to a light taildragger Kitfox. I don't think > it is hours that determine whether a groundloop will occur. I have > flown over 5 hours at a time with only one takeoff and one > landing. It seems that there are a number of factors that are > involved, some of which are listed below, not in a particular order. > > 1. Design of the aircraft. Width of mains, wider is better (Grove > gear is wider than tube gear on Kitfox). Springiness of gear, > stiffness, ability to absorb shock without bouncing (I found tube > gear stiff and bouncy). Ability to get tail down in flare > (difficult in mine, especially with full flaps). Side area exposed > to crosswinds - low on a Kitfox is good. Visibility over the nose > when flaring (none in mine, I use peripheral vision of the ground > plane). Landing speed, slower is better. Speedsters land faster > due to shorter wings and probably the undercambered wing models (I, > II, III) land much slower. > > 2. Construction of Aircraft. Alignment of wheels (I had to align > my tube gear). Type tires, square shoulder (I had) or round (I > have now). Proper angle of tailwheel. Tailwheel spring slack. > Gas line on inside of firewall that will catch the sole of your > shoe when stepping on the brake (I had to fix that). Type of > brakes installed (mine were very weak). Dual brakes (easier to get > an instructor; mine has brakes on LH side only, I had to learn to > fly it from RH side first). Type of tailwheel (I have never > changed mine). Type of prop; the Rotax cannot be idled below 1800; > the Ivoprop I have on it now acts like a speed brake in flatter pitch. > > 3. Maintenance of Aircraft. Brakes, too good is better but can > grab or nose you over if you apply them hard; too bad won't arrest > an incipient groundloop, sticking can cause one. Tire type and > condition; you don't want a flat. Alignment (of tube gear). > Tailwheel condition. Tailwheel spring (can loosen or break). > Tailwheel turning springs and fasteners condition (failure will > leave you without steering). Bungees (if you have them, you don't > want them to break; also be sure you have snare cables attached). > Making sure all control linkages and surfaces are fully functional. > > 4. Experience of pilot. Comfort level in the aircraft. Ability to > be on top of it, ahead of it, to make it do what is wanted and not > overcontrol it. Airspeed control; knowing and using appropriate > speeds especially in the area of reverse command over the fence and > what is needed for turns and gusts. Using tailwheel steering until > rudder can take over on takeoff (mine has little rudder authority > at first and wants to shoot off to the left if you lift the tail > early). Adding rudder with throttle. Number of takeoffs and > landings, especially recent experience. More make you more in > control. Crosswind technique and experience, amount and strength > of wind. This is needed in mountainous areas where runways are not > always oriented into the prevailing wind. Techniques for gusts. > Mountain strips. Type of surface, hard, soft, grass, dirt, gravel, > wet, soft, rough, short, sloped. > > 5. Operation. Loaded Weight, heavier lands faster but is not as > apt to "float" if you come in too fast. CG, aft makes lifting tail > harder but helps get tail down on landing. Keeping controls free. > Taxiing technique with wind. Paying attention at all times while > moving; no distractions. S-turns. Pilot condition. You will find > your technique flawless at times and sub-par at other times. > > My own observations: > > Despite having learned in and flown mostly taildraggers in the > past, I found my Kitfox IV Speedster to be a handful at first. It > was not for beginners, the way it was set up. I never found out > why. The Grove gear finally tamed it. It is not easy to find an > instructor for Kitfoxes. The main tailwheel instructor I know in > our area will not fly it, having tried one he does not want to add > a groundloop to his resume. Experience in a Champ is not the same, > since by contrast you can see well out the front, it lands slowly, > takes lots of control movement, and has very forgiving gear. A > Champ is so docile it makes a Cessna 150 seem hard to land by > comparison. The Kitfox is sensitive on the controls, calling for a > light but authoritative touch. It will do just what you ask it to > do, whether or not you realize what you are asking of it. You will > consider a Cessna to fly like a truck after flying a Kitfox. > > You can do it if you make the commitment to develop and practice > good technique on every takeoff and landing; lots of people with > varying experience do it successfully as you can see from the > list. If you start on a suitable airport with a well-designed > aircraft, assembled and maintained properly, practice a lot, keep > current, pay attention, and expand your envelope as your experience > increases, you should be OK. Tricky conditions are, if course, > riskier. Even if you stay on runways, cross-countries can present > you with challenging conditions for which you have to be prepared > to handle when you are tired. It is not going to be as forgiving > of slamming it into the ground nor will it jerk itself straight out > of a bad landing like a nosewheel-equipped Cessna will. > > JA KF IV Speedster @ O70 > > > =========== > -- > Gifts!) > on > about > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > =========== > Forum - > FAQ, > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List > =========== > WEB FORUMS - > =========== > > > http://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/ > Navigator?Kitfox-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com > ============================================================ _- > ============================================================ _- > contribution_- > =========================================================== ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 06:59:41 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: RE: takeoff, landing, taxiing and crosswind technique From: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT" On Thu, January 1, 2009 3:39 pm, Noel Loveys wrote: > > Just wondering about this... When I was trained to fly C-172 I was trained > to hold attitudes that were similar to conventional gear just before > touchdown. You probably remember the reasons for this too. The idea is that you want to minimize the time in transition between flying control and rolling control so actual touchdown should be right at or slightly below stall speed. The contact will dissipate some of the kinetic energy and shorten the time before effective wheel braking can occur. I was taught that even touching the tail skid on my Cherokee was fine and that is a pretty nose high attitude. > I can say without any fear of contradiction that my first > landings were not the best in the world... The C-172 seemed to forgive the > fact I was intent on landing sideways. With a little practice I stopped > sliding around like a drunken sailor. Of course, the wing low into the wind and cross control to keep it lined up with the centerline is the preferred method for either tricycle or conventional gear. You don't master this technique right at the beginning so your initial instruction intentionally avoids much of a crosswind. When I got instruction in a tail dragger, the instructor made the comment that people with only tricycle gear experience didn't tend to use the rudder as much as is necessary with a tail dragger. So, since I had plenty of flying time, the instructor said we are going to concentrate on the differences since once in flight there isn't much difference at all. The first thing that he said was necessary was to be cognizant of the apparent wind at all times and the proper stick position should come automatically to you. So here's the practice that I did for more than an hour until it was a habit. We taxied to the run up area adjacent to the runway. It had a nice big compose rose painted there which you could use to adjust your compass. He said we were going to make turns right in the middle of that big compass rose as tightly as possible and we were going to do first left 360's then right 360's then repeat the procedure noting that as you make a 360 deg turn on the ground the stick goes through a figure 8 pattern. With nose into the wind, the stick is straight back and with a direct tailwind the stick is all the way forward. In a direct crosswind the stick is centered. For a left quartering tailwind, the stick is forward and to the left; for right quartering tailwind, the stick is forward to the right. For a left quartering headwind, the stick is back and to the left; for a right quartering headwind the stick is back and to the right. I practiced and practiced until I could make a 360 turn while moving the stick in a figure 8 both clockwise and counter clockwise. After I had that down pretty well, he had me taxi to various points on the field using both the taxiways and the runway and constantly correcting me if I had the stick not in the correct part of the figure 8. After that, take-offs, flying and landing were a natural thing in a tail dragger. The lesson is that if you always keep the stick in the correct part of the figure 8 you'll greatly reduce your chances of a ground loop while taxiing. > Take offs were another quintal of fish.. My first take offs were basically > firewall the C and slowly pull back until I left the ground. Then after a few times you learn that keeping the stick neutral until you reach liftoff speed, really shortens the take off roll. > Now the question... Where do most ground loops occur in both tricycle and > conventional gear? It is easy to see how a tricycle stays straighter on > touchdown than a conventional... but it is also easy to see how a tricycle > gear may not handle downwind as well as a conventional. Do the tricycle > gear handle crosswind taxis better? If you don't use the rudder as you should, then a tricycle has substantially more resistance to yaw. But it the stick is in the correct position (figure 8), and you keep it straight with your feet, the difference is reduced. You can provide further control with steering brakes and a little throttle to put some wash on the rudder. I've seen two messed up ground loop type accidents both in a pretty gusty crosswind. The first one was tricycle gear and it wasn't using enough wing low on the touchdown and also bounced. It really got out of alignment and the downwind wing touched the pavement and it spun around and folded the nose gear under. The other sort of ground loop I saw occurred in a tail dragger on takeoff. Went airborn a little too soon, bounced and turned completely 90 deg to the runway and jammed the low wing into the sod. > My interest in this is just slightly academic as I fly floats and in this > country there is no endorsement for conventional gear. If I were to try the > black doughnut thingies (wheels)though I would get some instruction on them. My opinion is that your float operations have probably prepared you more for conventional gear than just tricycle operations. -- Paul A. Franz Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP Bellevue WA 425.241.1618 Cell ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 07:00:44 PM PST US From: steve shinabery Subject: Kitfox-List: WOW Nice Pic's Lynn Now that is some great Pic's Lynn...are you still flying in any snow up your way?we do not have any down here as yet..hope 2 see you this summer..Steve Shinabery ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 07:28:49 PM PST US From: steve shinabery Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: My Story on Ground Looping A little story about a all most Ground Loop..a few months back...in the late fall..I was out playing on a 1000ft strip along side of our runway..and we had a strong Xwind out of the south.WELL guys,it was my fault.but I did not have my wing down in to the wind..Yes I know,how stupid of me..I was at app take off speed,,and then things went real wrong...the right wing lifted off the ground.and left wing touched the ground..I thought that KF N554KF was history..But I remember what my Inst.all ways told me..FLY the plane.no one else is in there with you..do not get scared.you do not have time for that..I felt the plane going over...and...I gave right stick,all the way over.and held in all right rudder+the brake..and pulled the plane right back,going straight down the strip..and then when I was taxing up to my hanger for anther day..Guess what..my Inst..had this half _ _smile on his face..Ans he asked me if I had learned any thing from this lesson??and I told him YES.to keep that wing down in to the wind..And then he said did I get scared??and I told him.as he all ways told me..No that I did not have time to get scared..And then he turned and started to walk back..and he turned on more time to me and Said,,HEY Steve,that was a great save..you did save KF 554 today..You learned some thing to day..good job..and I did not even hurt my little N554KF..and I felt great after he said that..what a great Inst. Steve Shinabery N554KF KF2 Great Lakes Area Kit Fox Fly In coming in 2009. some time in June..or July....See Ya All there ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 07:59:05 PM PST US From: Noel Loveys Subject: Kitfox-List: RE: takeoff, landing, taxiing and crosswind technique Thanks for the input Paul.-- Even with the few hours I have under my be lt there are still things I learn about flying almost every day. While doing practices for soft field take offs in the C the instructor want ed me to start the run with the nosewheel off the ground but not strike the tail of the plane.- he had me do several practices of taxiing back to th e hangar without letting the nosewheel touch the ground.- As I remember i t, it was like nailing jelly to a tree.- Of course those exercises were o nly done in dead calm conditions. Too bad the 'Fox won't take both our weight OI'd love to let him see what a manouverable plane is like.- Especially one that climbs like the Fox, ev en on floats. I had a momentary difficulty in imagining the figure 8 you mentioned but I was visualizing the 8 on its side like an infinity symbol.- Needless to s ay that didn't work. Noel --- On Thu, 1/1/09, Paul Franz - Merlin GT wrote: From: Paul Franz - Merlin GT Subject: Kitfox-List: RE: takeoff, landing, taxiing and crosswind technique Received: Thursday, January 1, 2009, 11:29 PM On Thu, January 1, 2009 3:39 pm, Noel Loveys wrote: > > Just wondering about this... When I was trained to fly C-172 I was trained > to hold attitudes that were similar to conventional gear just before > touchdown. You probably remember the reasons for this too. The idea is that you want t o minimize the time in transition between flying control and rolling control so actual touchdown should be right at or slightly below stall speed. The contact will dissipat e some of the kinetic energy and shorten the time before effective wheel braking can occur. I was taught that even touching the tail skid on my Cherokee was fine and tha t is a pretty nose high attitude. > I can say without any fear of contradiction that my first > landings were not the best in the world... The C-172 seemed to forgive the > fact I was intent on landing sideways. With a little practice I stopped > sliding around like a drunken sailor. Of course, the wing low into the wind and cross control to keep it lined up with the centerline is the preferred method for either tricycle or conventional gear .. You don't master this technique right at the beginning so your initial instruction intentionally avoids much of a crosswind. When I got instruction in a tail dragger, the instructor made the comment t hat people with only tricycle gear experience didn't tend to use the rudder as much as is necessary with a tail dragger. So, since I had plenty of flying time, the instructor said we are going to concentrate on the differences since once in flight th ere isn't much difference at all. The first thing that he said was necessary was to b e cognizant of the apparent wind at all times and the proper stick position should come automatically to you. So here's the practice that I did for more than an hour until it was a habit. We taxied to the run up area adjacent to the runway. It had a nice big compose rose painted there which you could use to adjust your compass. He s aid we were going to make turns right in the middle of that big compass rose as tightly as possible and we were going to do first left 360's then right 360's then repeat the procedure noting that as you make a 360 deg turn on the ground the stick go es through a figure 8 pattern. With nose into the wind, the stick is straight back and with a direct tailwind the stick is all the way forward. In a direct crosswind the stick is centered. For a left quartering tailwind, the stick is forward and to the l eft; for right quartering tailwind, the stick is forward to the right. For a left quartering headwind, the stick is back and to the left; for a right quartering headwin d the stick is back and to the right. I practiced and practiced until I could make a 36 0 turn while moving the stick in a figure 8 both clockwise and counter clockwise. After I had that down pretty well, he had me taxi to various points on the field using both the taxiways and the runway and constantly correcting me if I had the stick not in the correct part of the figure 8. After that, take-offs, flying and land ing were a natural thing in a tail dragger. The lesson is that if you always keep the stick in the correct part of the figure 8 you'll greatly reduce your chances of a ground loop while taxiing. > Take offs were another quintal of fish.. My first take offs were basically > firewall the C and slowly pull back until I left the ground. Then after a few times you learn that keeping the stick neutral until you r each liftoff speed, really shortens the take off roll. > Now the question... Where do most ground loops occur in both tricycle an d > conventional gear? It is easy to see how a tricycle stays straighter on > touchdown than a conventional... but it is also easy to see how a tricycl e > gear may not handle downwind as well as a conventional. Do the tricycle > gear handle crosswind taxis better? If you don't use the rudder as you should, then a tricycle has substantially more resistance to yaw. But it the stick is in the correct position (figure 8), and you keep it straight with your feet, the difference is reduced. You can provide further control with steering brakes and a little throttle to put some wash on the rudder. I've seen two messed up ground loop type accidents both in a pretty gusty crosswind. The first one was tricycle gear and it wasn't using enough wing low on the touchdown and also bounced. It really got out of alignment and the downwind wing touc hed the pavement and it spun around and folded the nose gear under. The other sort of ground loop I saw occurred in a tail dragger on takeoff. Went airborn a little too soon, bounced and turned completely 90 deg to the runway and jammed the low wing into the sod. > My interest in this is just slightly academic as I fly floats and in this > country there is no endorsement for conventional gear. If I were to try the > black doughnut thingies (wheels)though I would get some instruction on them. My opinion is that your float operations have probably prepared you more fo r conventional gear than just tricycle operations. -- Paul A. Franz Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP Bellevue WA 425.241.1618 Cell =0A=0A=0A ____________________________________________________________ ______=0AInstant Messaging, free SMS, sharing photos and more... Try the ne w Yahoo! Canada Messenger at http://ca.beta.messenger.yahoo.com/ ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 09:02:06 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: RE: takeoff, landing, taxiing and crosswind technique From: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT" On Thu, January 1, 2009 7:57 pm, Noel Loveys wrote: > Thanks for the input Paul. Even with the few hours I have under my belt there are > still things I learn about flying almost every day. I think that is one of the coolest things about flying is the continuous learning opportunity. My younger brother just got his Instrument Rating and he is an expert flying the Microsoft Flight Simulator. So much so that the flight portion of the exam was done after the minimum number of flight instruction hours. He has a lot of Super Cub time in the flight simulator and has done hundreds of ground loops and recoveries in it. He has zero actual time in a tail dragger but when I took him up in the rented C-140 he was right at home. I think there is a KF Vixen plugin for MS Flight Simulator and you can get some pretty good practice with that. Not being a KF owner, I wasn't certain if a Vixen was a tail dragger though. I believe the Vixen in MS flight simulator is from a 3rd party. > > While doing practices for soft field take offs in the C the instructor wanted me to > start the run with the nosewheel off the ground but not strike the tail of the plane. Must not have had a tail skid. My two Pipers both had them and there were rub marks on them. When the tail skid rubbed on the pavement it made a horrible loud scraping noise that seemed to echo inside the cabin. Neither of my Pipers had wheel pants. The 160 didn't have them and the Arrow had fold up feet so it didn't either but on some Cessna 172's the back of the wheel pants may get too close to the pavement if you touch the tail skid. > he had me do several practices of taxiing back to the hangar without letting the > nosewheel touch the ground. As I remember it, it was like nailing jelly to a tree. > Of course those exercises were only done in dead calm conditions. Best to practice new stuff in calm conditions all right. > Too bad the 'Fox won't take both our weight OI'd love to let him see what a > manouverable plane is like. Especially one that climbs like the Fox, even on floats. I've never flown in a KF. Almost did in the late Miguel Ramirez' KF Model 4. It just isn't wide enough for two big guys. I'm about the same size as Miguel and with both of us sitting in it there just wasn't room enough to get much side to side stick movement. We had to twist a little crosswise to fit too. Not enough shoulder width. I did taxi it around by myself and as generous as Miguel was, he just offered to let me have a go in it by myself. My impression from just taxiing was that the gear was pretty narrow and you needed to be careful. He had the standard bungie gear rather than the wider and taller grove spring gear. > > I had a momentary difficulty in imagining the figure 8 you mentioned but I was > visualizing the 8 on its side like an infinity symbol. Needless to say that didn't > work. That applies solidly when turning a tight circle. Obviously if you've got a tail wind and you're taxiing downwind faster than the downwind speed, you don't have the stick all the way forward. Of course, some people say you shouldn't be taxiing faster than a person walking fast or jogging anyway. I've gotten hollered at for taxiing too fast a couple of times. People can get really irate about that. As you said, you will always be learning something new flying. -- Paul A. Franz Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP Bellevue WA 425.241.1618 Cell ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 09:36:01 PM PST US Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Everybody ground loops? From: gary.algate@sandvik.com Noel I think my spring was poorly designed - It has two leaves but the upper (shorter one) was finished with a pointed end, as the lower leaf flexed at this point it raised considerable stress leading to the failure. I think I would check any springs out there and if it is finished like mine I would grind the point off and leave it flat with rounded corners. I did not see an signs of cracking prior to the failure as it propagated from below the stress riser and at the bottom of the spring. I am having new leaves manufactured here in Adelaide and in future I am going to change them biannually. Regards Gary Gary Algate Classic 4 Jab 2200 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. ?This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe and happy Christmas". "Noel Loveys" Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com 02/01/2009 12:07 PM Please respond to kitfox-list@matronics.com To cc Subject RE: Kitfox-List: Everybody ground loops? Is there any NDT way to test the tail wheel spring at regular intervals. I?m thinking eddy current but not sure if it will work on ferrous metals. Lots of FBOs have eddy current machines not to mention magnetic flux and dye penetrate. Dye penetrant should work same as flux... check the spring every annual. It may not be perfect but it?s better than ripping up your rudder. Noel From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gary.algate@sandvik.com Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 4:07 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Everybody ground loops? I didn't ground loop today but I did break my tailwheel spring. I had just landed and was taxiing past the main viewing area (of course) when I heard a crunch and felt a bump. I knew straight away what had happened and really didn't want to get out and see the damage to my rudder. Today was a good day as the spring broke just above the wheel and there was enough left to hold the rudder about 1/2" above the ground. I have the 2 x leaf spring version and I check it before each flight so there was little or no warning. I am going to have a three leaf spring manufactured this week! Gary Gary Algate Classic 4 Jab 2200 Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655 This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission. ?This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe and happy Christmas". John Allen Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com 31/12/2008 05:50 PM Please respond to kitfox-list@matronics.com To kitfox-list@matronics.com cc Subject Kitfox-List: Everybody ground loops? In response to Paul Folbrecht who wrote: > I'm considering buying either a half share or a whole share in a completed > Fox (TD). I have no TD time and while becoming taildragger-proficient is > appealing to me, ground-looping one is *not*! > > So.... assuming I get a GOOD TG endorsement from a GOOD instructor, and > GOOD training in the Kitfox, honestly, should I =5Fseriously=5F expect to > ground-loop it at *some* point? > > How about this - everybody who's got 50, 100, 200, 500, etc. hours in > Kitfoxes while never looping raise your hand! :) The following is just my opinion for what it is worth to try to answer the question you pose for someone considering transition from heavy nosewheels to a light taildragger Kitfox. I don't think it is hours that determine whether a groundloop will occur. I have flown over 5 hours at a time with only one takeoff and one landing. It seems that there are a number of factors that are involved, some of which are listed below, not in a particular order. 1. Design of the aircraft. Width of mains, wider is better (Grove gear is wider than tube gear on Kitfox). Springiness of gear, stiffness, ability to absorb shock without bouncing (I found tube gear stiff and bouncy). Ability to get tail down in flare (difficult in mine, especially with full flaps). Side area exposed to crosswinds - low on a Kitfox is good. Visibility over the nose when flaring (none in mine, I use peripheral vision of the ground plane). Landing speed, slower is better. Speedsters land faster due to shorter wings and probably the undercambered wing models (I, II, III) land much slower. 2. Construction of Aircraft. Alignment of wheels (I had to align my tube gear). Type tires, square shoulder (I had) or round (I have now). Proper angle of tailwheel. Tailwheel spring slack. Gas line on inside of firewall that will catch the sole of your shoe when stepping on the brake (I had to fix that). Type of brakes installed (mine were very weak). Dual brakes (easier to get an instructor; mine has brakes on LH side only, I had to learn to fly it from RH side first). Type of tailwheel (I have never changed mine). Type of prop; the Rotax cannot be idled below 1800; the Ivoprop I have on it now acts like a speed brake in flatter pitch. 3. Maintenance of Aircraft. Brakes, too good is better but can grab or nose you over if you apply them hard; too bad won't arrest an incipient groundloop, sticking can cause one. Tire type and condition; you don't want a flat. Alignment (of tube gear). Tailwheel condition. Tailwheel spring (can loosen or break). Tailwheel turning springs and fasteners condition (failure will leave you without steering). Bungees (if you have them, you don't want them to break; also be sure you have snare cables attached). Making sure all control linkages and surfaces are fully functional. 4. Experience of pilot. Comfort level in the aircraft. Ability to be on top of it, ahead of it, to make it do what is wanted and not overcontrol it. Airspeed control; knowing and using appropriate speeds especially in the area of reverse command over the fence and what is needed for turns and gusts. Using tailwheel steering until rudder can take over on takeoff (mine has little rudder authority at first and wants to shoot off to the left if you lift the tail early). Adding rudder with throttle. Number of takeoffs and landings, especially recent experience. More make you more in control. Crosswind technique and experience, amount and strength of wind. This is needed in mountainous areas where runways are not always oriented into the prevailing wind. Techniques for gusts. Mountain strips. Type of surface, hard, soft, grass, dirt, gravel, wet, soft, rough, short, sloped. 5. Operation. Loaded Weight, heavier lands faster but is not as apt to "float" if you come in too fast. CG, aft makes lifting tail harder but helps get tail down on landing. Keeping controls free. Taxiing technique with wind. Paying attention at all times while moving; no distractions. S-turns. Pilot condition. You will find your technique flawless at times and sub-par at other times. My own observations: Despite having learned in and flown mostly taildraggers in the past, I found my Kitfox IV Speedster to be a handful at first. It was not for beginners, the way it was set up. I never found out why. The Grove gear finally tamed it. It is not easy to find an instructor for Kitfoxes. The main tailwheel instructor I know in our area will not fly it, having tried one he does not want to add a groundloop to his resume. Experience in a Champ is not the same, since by contrast you can see well out the front, it lands slowly, takes lots of control movement, and has very forgiving gear. A Champ is so docile it makes a Cessna 150 seem hard to land by comparison. The Kitfox is sensitive on the controls, calling for a light but authoritative touch. It will do just what you ask it to do, whether or not you realize what you are asking of it. You will consider a Cessna to fly like a truck after flying a Kitfox. You can do it if you make the commitment to develop and practice good technique on every takeoff and landing; lots of people with varying experience do it successfully as you can see from the list. If you start on a suitable airport with a well-designed aircraft, assembled and maintained properly, practice a lot, keep current, pay attention, and expand your envelope as your experience increases, you should be OK. Tricky conditions are, if course, riskier. Even if you stay on runways, cross-countries can present you with challenging conditions for which you have to be prepared to handle when you are tired. It is not going to be as forgiving of slamming it into the ground nor will it jerk itself straight out of a bad landing like a nosewheel-equipped Cessna will. JA KF IV Speedster @ O70 =========== -- Gifts!) on about -Matt Dralle, List Admin. =========== Forum - FAQ, http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List =========== WEB FORUMS - =========== http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List http://forums.matronics.com =5F-======================= =========== =5F-= - The Kitfox-List Email Forum - =5F-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse =5F-= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, =5F-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, =5F-= Photoshare, and much much more: =5F- =5F-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List =5F- =5F-======================= =========== =5F-= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - =5F-= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! =5F- =5F-= --> http://forums.matronics.com =5F- =5F-======================= =========== =5F-= - List Contribution Web Site - =5F-= Thank you for your generous support! =5F-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. =5F-= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution =5F-======================= =========== ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 11:02:08 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Kitfox-List: Official Kitfox-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) Dear Listers, Please read over the Kitfox-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. 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The information will NOT be used for any other commercial purpose. **************************************** *** Realtime Web Email List Browsing *** **************************************** Recent messages posted to the Kitfox-List are also made available on the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject, Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon). You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List Browser Interface in view-mode. http://www.matronics.com/browselist/kitfox-list ******************************************* *** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface *** ******************************************* A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all Kitfox-List content. content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to the web Forums. You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login. If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the Email Distribution of the List, however. The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL: http://forums.matronics.com ********************************* *** Matronics Email List Wiki *** ********************************* In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at: http://wiki.matronics.com The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately. While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any images and email it to: wiki-support@matronics.com One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct a Wiki page for you. Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that post and convert it into a Wiki page. ********************* *** List Archives *** ********************* A file containing of all of the previous postings to the Kitfox-List is available on line. The archive file information is available via the Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below: * Kitfox-List.FAQ - Latest version of the Kitfox-List Frequently Asked Question page (this document). * Kitfox-Archive.digest.complete - Complete file with most of the email header info removed and page breaks inserted between messages. * Kitfox-Archive.digest.vol-?? - Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that can more easily handled. * Kitfox-Archive.digest.complete.zip - Same as the Kitfox-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. * Kitfox-Archive.digest.complete.Z - Same as the Kitfox-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. Download Via FTP ---------------- The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.) ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives Download Via Web ---------------- The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found toward the bottom of the following web page: http://www.matronics.com/archives ****************************************** *** Complete List Web Archive Browsing *** ****************************************** All messages posted to the Kitfox-List are also available using the Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed. http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?Kitfox ***************************************** **** High-Speed Archive Search Engine *** ***************************************** You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently available List archives. http://www.matronics.com/search **************************** *** File and Photo Share *** **************************** With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures and other data with members of the List without having to forward a copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email them to: pictures@matronics.com !! ==> Please including the following information with each submission: 1) Email Lists that they are related to. 2) Your Full Name. 3) Your Email Address. 4) One line Subject description. 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic. 6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to process them every few days. Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new Share is available and what the direct URL to it is. For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main Index Page: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare ************************** *** List Archive CDROM *** ************************** A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make great gifts! http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM ********************************** *** List Support Contributions *** ********************************** The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members. You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month, I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they are comfortable. I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated by companies that are themselves List members. Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the variety of services found here. Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude. Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in. The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and sending a personal check. If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to support its continued operation? http://www.matronics.com/contributions Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Kitfox-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Kitfox-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Kitfox-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Kitfox-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Kitfox-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 11:14:23 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Kitfox-List: Official Kitfox-List Usage Guidelines Dear Listers, Please read over the Kitfox-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete Kitfox-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Kitfox-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Kitfox-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Kitfox-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Kitfox-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Kitfox-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Kitfox-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 11:19:32 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: broken tailwheel suspension spring From: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT" On Thu, January 1, 2009 9:34 pm, gary.algate@sandvik.com wrote: > Noel > > I think my spring was poorly designed - It has two leaves but the upper > (shorter one) was finished with a pointed end, as the lower leaf flexed at > this point it raised considerable stress leading to the failure. > > I think I would check any springs out there and if it is finished like > mine I would grind the point off and leave it flat with rounded corners. Since that would effectively shorten the upper spring that would increase the bending moment on the lower one and further shorten its life. It would appear to me that the lower leaf needs to flex less. That would mean you need to shorten it or replace it with a stronger leaf. If it is too stiff now, use a thinner upper leaf to distribute the stress concentration at the fulcrum (tip of the upper spring). Lengthening the taper rather than shortening it would be better - just the opposite of what you're suggesting, provided I am understanding your description. > I did not see an signs of cracking prior to the failure as it propagated > from below the stress riser and at the bottom of the spring. That's the nature of fatique failure in hardened steel alloys. Another geometry change you might consider is using a much thinner upper leaf and lengthening it. This will reduce the maximum bending stress for the same effective spring rate. -- Paul A. Franz Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP Bellevue WA 425.241.1618 Cell ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.