Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:39 AM - Trike vs tailwheel (fox5flyer)
2. 05:39 AM - Re: WOW Nice Pic's Lynn (Lynn Matteson)
3. 06:14 AM - Re: carb vents (jridgway)
4. 07:33 AM - Re: Everybody ground loops? (Noel Loveys)
5. 07:49 AM - Re: Everybody ground loops? (Lowell Fitt)
6. 07:59 AM - Ground Loop Instruction (C. David Estapa)
7. 08:27 AM - Ground Loop Instruction (C. David Estapa)
8. 09:40 AM - Re: Ground Loop Instruction (Paul Franz - Merlin GT)
9. 12:20 PM - Re: Re: Ground Loop Instruction (C. David Estapa)
10. 04:08 PM - Re: Everybody ground loops? (Noel Loveys)
11. 06:11 PM - Broken tail wheel springs (Clint Bazzill)
12. 06:53 PM - Re: Broken tail wheel springs (Noel Loveys)
13. 08:07 PM - Wing Repairs (Cudnohufsky's)
14. 09:03 PM - Re: Wing Repairs (Lowell Fitt)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Trike vs tailwheel |
>
>>If I remember correctly, the tricycle gear, along with a steering wheel
>>instead of a stick, came along because the industry was trying to make
>>airplanes like cars, easy to "drive", therefore easier to sell. Nothing
>>more than that.
Michael sez:
>
> Didn't both of those things originate with airline and military aircraft?
> Hardly seems like those markets would care about being car-like. In heavy
> aircraft like bombers and airliners, being able to easily place two hands
> on the yoke would allow more muscle for control movements. I once had a
> ride in a Ford Tri-motor and the pilot told me that the plane is very
> heavy in roll--sometimes help from the copilot is necessary.
Good point Michael. You're probably correct regarding commercial and
military aircraft, but I was referring to general aviation. I read an
article a very long time ago about how the manufacturers were trying to
market their airplanes to be so simple to fly that one could get in and fly
like they are driving a car, hense the steering and nose wheels, Aerocar,
and other things. Using a steering wheel also cleared up the floor and
allowed entry and exit easier which later became the industry standard.
Eventually the nose wheel also took over as it was felt that becasue of the
nose wheel being in front of the CG, it was genuinely easier which made it
safer. I'm sure that there were other things also and not all chose to go
this route, but that was what I read. Of course, just because it's in
writing does not make it true, as is the internet, right on down to this
List. Personally, I prefer the tailwheel in my Kitfox because I like the
way it looks.
> As with all things in aviation (and life, for that matter), everything is
> a compromise. Choices between yokes and sticks, nose wheels and tail
> wheels, etc., all provide fertile ground for the aircraft designer's
> imagination.
...and discussion. I think that in marketing in any field, it's not so much
about compromise, but about what the manufacturer thinks the buyers will
prefer and pay for.
>
> What does all this have to do with floats and exhaust pipes again? :-)
Nothing. I guess we both failed to change the subject line.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
- Joseph Joubert
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| Subject: | Re: WOW Nice Pic's Lynn |
We had about 14" of snow on the ground last week, then 2 days of 56
F weather and high...60 mph....winds, and we're back to dry ground. I
got some flying in on Christmas day, landing at several grass strips.
Since then, 1" fell. I'm taking the skis off today, as I'm getting
close to fitting the new ones, and without snow, there's not much
point in flying with skis, even wheel skis. The newer skis will
install much more quickly, so that's a plus.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
do not archive
On Jan 1, 2009, at 10:02 PM, steve shinabery wrote:
>
> Now that is some great Pic's Lynn...are you still flying in any
> snow up your way?we do not have any down here as yet..hope 2 see
> you this summer..Steve Shinabery
>
>
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Thanks all...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222358#222358
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| Subject: | Everybody ground loops? |
The whole point of NDT... Non Destructive Testing... is it will pick up
cracks that you couldn't see with a microscope. You aren't alone in saying
the break came as a complete surprise and there is no doubt that multiple
leaves will beat thicker leaves in every case. Older army jeep lovers will
attest that the multi-multi leaf springs on some of the old , I think they
were Ford built, Jeeps out preformed the thicker springs on the GM and
Willys produced units hands down.
With NDT even the thinnest, otherwise invisible cracks will show up. I was
wondering if anyone does regular NDT testing of their tail springs. With
the number of breaks listed here I would think it would be a good thing to
check occasionally, especially considering none of the NDT processes will
break the bank and they can show cracks below the surface of the metal.
The Magnetic flux and eddy current machines are expensive and require quite
a bit of expertise to operate. If there is someone in your area using one,
they're common enough, it would be a five minute test for them. Dye
penetrant is cheaper but won't show sub surface cracks like the other tests
but it will get into any surface crack even one much too thin to see with
the naked eye. Once the dye has been applied the part is inspected with a
black light where any cracks will fluoresce. Be aware though this stuff is
designed to get into the smallest of spaces and I've seen guys who had dye
penetrant pass right through heavy clothing. Not all dye penetrant is
fluorescing and the non fluorescing ones are amazing how they will pass
right through layers of heavy clothing.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
gary.algate@sandvik.com
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 2:05 AM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Everybody ground loops?
Noel
I think my spring was poorly designed - It has two leaves but the upper
(shorter one) was finished with a pointed end, as the lower leaf flexed at
this point it raised considerable stress leading to the failure.
I think I would check any springs out there and if it is finished like mine
I would grind the point off and leave it flat with rounded corners.
I did not see an signs of cracking prior to the failure as it propagated
from below the stress riser and at the bottom of the spring.
I am having new leaves manufactured here in Adelaide and in future I am
going to change them biannually.
Regards
Gary
Gary Algate
Classic 4 Jab 2200
Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any
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or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have
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may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
"This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have
made a contribution to <http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/australia.html>
UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe and happy Christmas".
"Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
02/01/2009 12:07 PM
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Subject
RE: Kitfox-List: Everybody ground loops?
Is there any NDT way to test the tail wheel spring at regular intervals.
I'm thinking eddy current but not sure if it will work on ferrous metals.
Lots of FBOs have eddy current machines not to mention magnetic flux and dye
penetrate. Dye penetrant should work same as flux... check the spring
every annual.
It may not be perfect but it's better than ripping up your rudder.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
gary.algate@sandvik.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 4:07 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Everybody ground loops?
I didn't ground loop today but I did break my tailwheel spring. I had just
landed and was taxiing past the main viewing area (of course) when I heard a
crunch and felt a bump.
I knew straight away what had happened and really didn't want to get out and
see the damage to my rudder.
Today was a good day as the spring broke just above the wheel and there was
enough left to hold the rudder about 1/2" above the ground. I have the 2 x
leaf spring version and I check it before each flight so there was little or
no warning.
I am going to have a three leaf spring manufactured this week!
Gary
Gary Algate
Classic 4 Jab 2200
Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees. Any
review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by persons
or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have
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e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender does not accept
liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which
may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
"This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have
made a contribution to <http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/australia.html>
UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe and happy Christmas".
John Allen <kitfoxfugit@yahoo.com>
Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
31/12/2008 05:50 PM
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Subject
Kitfox-List: Everybody ground loops?
In response to Paul Folbrecht <paul.folbrecht@veribox.net> who wrote:
> I'm considering buying either a half share or a whole share in a completed
> Fox (TD). I have no TD time and while becoming taildragger-proficient is
> appealing to me, ground-looping one is *not*!
>
> So.... assuming I get a GOOD TG endorsement from a GOOD instructor, and
> GOOD training in the Kitfox, honestly, should I _seriously_ expect to
> ground-loop it at *some* point?
>
> How about this - everybody who's got 50, 100, 200, 500, etc. hours in
> Kitfoxes while never looping raise your hand! :)
The following is just my opinion for what it is worth to try to answer the
question you pose for someone considering transition from heavy nosewheels
to a light taildragger Kitfox. I don't think it is hours that determine
whether a groundloop will occur. I have flown over 5 hours at a time with
only one takeoff and one landing. It seems that there are a number of
factors that are involved, some of which are listed below, not in a
particular order.
1. Design of the aircraft. Width of mains, wider is better (Grove gear is
wider than tube gear on Kitfox). Springiness of gear, stiffness, ability to
absorb shock without bouncing (I found tube gear stiff and bouncy). Ability
to get tail down in flare (difficult in mine, especially with full flaps).
Side area exposed to crosswinds - low on a Kitfox is good. Visibility over
the nose when flaring (none in mine, I use peripheral vision of the ground
plane). Landing speed, slower is better. Speedsters land faster due to
shorter wings and probably the undercambered wing models (I, II, III) land
much slower.
2. Construction of Aircraft. Alignment of wheels (I had to align my tube
gear). Type tires, square shoulder (I had) or round (I have now). Proper
angle of tailwheel. Tailwheel spring slack. Gas line on inside of firewall
that will catch the sole of your shoe when stepping on the brake (I had to
fix that). Type of brakes installed (mine were very weak). Dual brakes
(easier to get an instructor; mine has brakes on LH side only, I had to
learn to fly it from RH side first). Type of tailwheel (I have never
changed mine). Type of prop; the Rotax cannot be idled below 1800; the
Ivoprop I have on it now acts like a speed brake in flatter pitch.
3. Maintenance of Aircraft. Brakes, too good is better but can grab or nose
you over if you apply them hard; too bad won't arrest an incipient
groundloop, sticking can cause one. Tire type and condition; you don't want
a flat. Alignment (of tube gear). Tailwheel condition. Tailwheel spring
(can loosen or break). Tailwheel turning springs and fasteners condition
(failure will leave you without steering). Bungees (if you have them, you
don't want them to break; also be sure you have snare cables attached).
Making sure all control linkages and surfaces are fully functional.
4. Experience of pilot. Comfort level in the aircraft. Ability to be on
top of it, ahead of it, to make it do what is wanted and not overcontrol it.
Airspeed control; knowing and using appropriate speeds especially in the
area of reverse command over the fence and what is needed for turns and
gusts. Using tailwheel steering until rudder can take over on takeoff (mine
has little rudder authority at first and wants to shoot off to the left if
you lift the tail early). Adding rudder with throttle. Number of takeoffs
and landings, especially recent experience. More make you more in control.
Crosswind technique and experience, amount and strength of wind. This is
needed in mountainous areas where runways are not always oriented into the
prevailing wind. Techniques for gusts. Mountain strips. Type of surface,
hard, soft, grass, dirt, gravel, wet, soft, rough, short, sloped.
5. Operation. Loaded Weight, heavier lands faster but is not as apt to
"float" if you come in too fast. CG, aft makes lifting tail harder but
helps get tail down on landing. Keeping controls free. Taxiing technique
with wind. Paying attention at all times while moving; no distractions.
S-turns. Pilot condition. You will find your technique flawless at times
and sub-par at other times.
My own observations:
Despite having learned in and flown mostly taildraggers in the past, I found
my Kitfox IV Speedster to be a handful at first. It was not for beginners,
the way it was set up. I never found out why. The Grove gear finally tamed
it. It is not easy to find an instructor for Kitfoxes. The main tailwheel
instructor I know in our area will not fly it, having tried one he does not
want to add a groundloop to his resume. Experience in a Champ is not the
same, since by contrast you can see well out the front, it lands slowly,
takes lots of control movement, and has very forgiving gear. A Champ is so
docile it makes a Cessna 150 seem hard to land by comparison. The Kitfox is
sensitive on the controls, calling for a light but authoritative touch. It
will do just what you ask it to do, whether or not you realize what you are
asking of it. You will consider a Cessna to fly like a truck after flying a
Kitfox.
You can do it if you make the commitment to develop and practice good
technique on every takeoff and landing; lots of people with varying
experience do it successfully as you can see from the list. If you start on
a suitable airport with a well-designed aircraft, assembled and maintained
properly, practice a lot, keep current, pay attention, and expand your
envelope as your experience increases, you should be OK. Tricky conditions
are, if course, riskier. Even if you stay on runways, cross-countries can
present you with challenging conditions for which you have to be prepared to
handle when you are tired. It is not going to be as forgiving of slamming
it into the ground nor will it jerk itself straight out of a bad landing
like a nosewheel-equipped Cessna will.
JA KF IV Speedster @ O70
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Everybody ground loops? |
I find this type of failure very interesting. Someone may correct my
thinking, but this spring design is very common in ground transportation.
Truck leaf springs are usually constructed of several leaves of ever longer
lengths with the terminal on both ends a single leaf usually wound into a
tube that a bushing and bolt is inserted through to attatch to a shackle
then to the frame.
What is wrong with our system that failures are as common as they are.
Could it be that the supplier needs to check his heat treating temps a bit
better? With the number of vehicles out there with essentially this set-up,
why don't we see more broken springs on the side of the road. And before
someone suggests the impact of landing on the spring, wait until you drive
over California's highways paved in potholes.
Regarding a stress riser, I agree with Gary that this may be part of the
issue. The only Grove tailspring failure I am personally familiar with was
right at the forward edge of the tailwheel attachment - a squared off sharp
edge. On my pickiup there is a plastic disk at the end of the aux leaf to,
I suppose, spread the stress over three or so inches rather than at the
immediate end of the aux leaf.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: <gary.algate@sandvik.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 9:34 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Everybody ground loops?
Noel
I think my spring was poorly designed - It has two leaves but the upper
(shorter one) was finished with a pointed end, as the lower leaf flexed at
this point it raised considerable stress leading to the failure.
I think I would check any springs out there and if it is finished like
mine I would grind the point off and leave it flat with rounded corners.
I did not see an signs of cracking prior to the failure as it propagated
from below the stress riser and at the bottom of the spring.
I am having new leaves manufactured here in Adelaide and in future I am
going to change them biannually.
Regards
Gary
Gary Algate
Classic 4 Jab 2200
Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees.
Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by
persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If
you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by
telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender
does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of
this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
?This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have
made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe and happy
Christmas".
"Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
02/01/2009 12:07 PM
Please respond to
kitfox-list@matronics.com
To
<kitfox-list@matronics.com>
cc
Subject
RE: Kitfox-List: Everybody ground loops?
Is there any NDT way to test the tail wheel spring at regular intervals.
I?m thinking eddy current but not sure if it will work on ferrous metals.
Lots of FBOs have eddy current machines not to mention magnetic flux and
dye penetrate. Dye penetrant should work same as flux... check the
spring every annual.
It may not be perfect but it?s better than ripping up your rudder.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
gary.algate@sandvik.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 4:07 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Everybody ground loops?
I didn't ground loop today but I did break my tailwheel spring. I had just
landed and was taxiing past the main viewing area (of course) when I heard
a crunch and felt a bump.
I knew straight away what had happened and really didn't want to get out
and see the damage to my rudder.
Today was a good day as the spring broke just above the wheel and there
was enough left to hold the rudder about 1/2" above the ground. I have the
2 x leaf spring version and I check it before each flight so there was
little or no warning.
I am going to have a three leaf spring manufactured this week!
Gary
Gary Algate
Classic 4 Jab 2200
Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
This e-mail is confidential and it is intended only for the addressees.
Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message by
persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If
you have received this e-mail in error, kindly notify us immediately by
telephone or e-mail and delete the message from your system. The sender
does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of
this message which may arise as a result of the e-mail transmission.
?This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have
made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe and happy
Christmas".
John Allen <kitfoxfugit@yahoo.com>
Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
31/12/2008 05:50 PM
Please respond to
kitfox-list@matronics.com
To
kitfox-list@matronics.com
cc
Subject
Kitfox-List: Everybody ground loops?
In response to Paul Folbrecht <paul.folbrecht@veribox.net> who wrote:
> I'm considering buying either a half share or a whole share in a
completed
> Fox (TD). I have no TD time and while becoming taildragger-proficient
is
> appealing to me, ground-looping one is *not*!
>
> So.... assuming I get a GOOD TG endorsement from a GOOD instructor, and
> GOOD training in the Kitfox, honestly, should I _seriously_ expect to
> ground-loop it at *some* point?
>
> How about this - everybody who's got 50, 100, 200, 500, etc. hours in
> Kitfoxes while never looping raise your hand! :)
The following is just my opinion for what it is worth to try to answer the
question you pose for someone considering transition from heavy nosewheels
to a light taildragger Kitfox. I don't think it is hours that determine
whether a groundloop will occur. I have flown over 5 hours at a time with
only one takeoff and one landing. It seems that there are a number of
factors that are involved, some of which are listed below, not in a
particular order.
1. Design of the aircraft. Width of mains, wider is better (Grove gear is
wider than tube gear on Kitfox). Springiness of gear, stiffness, ability
to absorb shock without bouncing (I found tube gear stiff and bouncy).
Ability to get tail down in flare (difficult in mine, especially with full
flaps). Side area exposed to crosswinds - low on a Kitfox is good.
Visibility over the nose when flaring (none in mine, I use peripheral
vision of the ground plane). Landing speed, slower is better. Speedsters
land faster due to shorter wings and probably the undercambered wing
models (I, II, III) land much slower.
2. Construction of Aircraft. Alignment of wheels (I had to align my tube
gear). Type tires, square shoulder (I had) or round (I have now). Proper
angle of tailwheel. Tailwheel spring slack. Gas line on inside of
firewall that will catch the sole of your shoe when stepping on the brake
(I had to fix that). Type of brakes installed (mine were very weak). Dual
brakes (easier to get an instructor; mine has brakes on LH side only, I
had to learn to fly it from RH side first). Type of tailwheel (I have
never changed mine). Type of prop; the Rotax cannot be idled below 1800;
the Ivoprop I have on it now acts like a speed brake in flatter pitch.
3. Maintenance of Aircraft. Brakes, too good is better but can grab or
nose you over if you apply them hard; too bad won't arrest an incipient
groundloop, sticking can cause one. Tire type and condition; you don't
want a flat. Alignment (of tube gear). Tailwheel condition. Tailwheel
spring (can loosen or break). Tailwheel turning springs and fasteners
condition (failure will leave you without steering). Bungees (if you have
them, you don't want them to break; also be sure you have snare cables
attached). Making sure all control linkages and surfaces are fully
functional.
4. Experience of pilot. Comfort level in the aircraft. Ability to be on
top of it, ahead of it, to make it do what is wanted and not overcontrol
it. Airspeed control; knowing and using appropriate speeds especially in
the area of reverse command over the fence and what is needed for turns
and gusts. Using tailwheel steering until rudder can take over on takeoff
(mine has little rudder authority at first and wants to shoot off to the
left if you lift the tail early). Adding rudder with throttle. Number of
takeoffs and landings, especially recent experience. More make you more in
control. Crosswind technique and experience, amount and strength of wind.
This is needed in mountainous areas where runways are not always oriented
into the prevailing wind. Techniques for gusts. Mountain strips. Type
of surface, hard, soft, grass, dirt, gravel, wet, soft, rough, short,
sloped.
5. Operation. Loaded Weight, heavier lands faster but is not as apt to
"float" if you come in too fast. CG, aft makes lifting tail harder but
helps get tail down on landing. Keeping controls free. Taxiing technique
with wind. Paying attention at all times while moving; no distractions.
S-turns. Pilot condition. You will find your technique flawless at times
and sub-par at other times.
My own observations:
Despite having learned in and flown mostly taildraggers in the past, I
found my Kitfox IV Speedster to be a handful at first. It was not for
beginners, the way it was set up. I never found out why. The Grove gear
finally tamed it. It is not easy to find an instructor for Kitfoxes. The
main tailwheel instructor I know in our area will not fly it, having tried
one he does not want to add a groundloop to his resume. Experience in a
Champ is not the same, since by contrast you can see well out the front,
it lands slowly, takes lots of control movement, and has very forgiving
gear. A Champ is so docile it makes a Cessna 150 seem hard to land by
comparison. The Kitfox is sensitive on the controls, calling for a light
but authoritative touch. It will do just what you ask it to do, whether
or not you realize what you are asking of it. You will consider a Cessna
to fly like a truck after flying a Kitfox.
You can do it if you make the commitment to develop and practice good
technique on every takeoff and landing; lots of people with varying
experience do it successfully as you can see from the list. If you start
on a suitable airport with a well-designed aircraft, assembled and
maintained properly, practice a lot, keep current, pay attention, and
expand your envelope as your experience increases, you should be OK.
Tricky conditions are, if course, riskier. Even if you stay on runways,
cross-countries can present you with challenging conditions for which you
have to be prepared to handle when you are tired. It is not going to be
as forgiving of slamming it into the ground nor will it jerk itself
straight out of a bad landing like a nosewheel-equipped Cessna will.
JA KF IV Speedster @ O70
===========
--
Gifts!)
on
about
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
===========
Forum -
FAQ,
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List
===========
WEB FORUMS -
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Message 6
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| Subject: | Ground Loop Instruction |
The following humorous article on Ground loops is in EAA Chapter 105's
January newsletter. Below is text or go to:
http://www.eaa.org/ paste in browser window and click on newsletter Jan
09
David Estapa
Woodstock, GA
N97DE S5TD 912ULS
How To Groundloop Your Taildragger:
Judging by how frequently it is performed, the Ground-
loop is indeed a popular maneuver. The Groundloop is
an extreme low-level figure that is highly acrobatic in
nature, which may be executed in many exciting variations.
It is customarily performed as the last figure in a
sequence, but I have seen the Groundloop attempted as a
preliminary or warm-up maneuver.
It is rarely scored however, because it is most often performed
out of the Judges' line-of-sight. Also, the Ground-
loop is categorized as a surprise maneuver, and therefore
nobody is really prepared when it is executed. In fact,
the figure is not considered genuine unless Judges, spectators
and the pilot-in-command are all surprised! The
many interesting and dynamic variations do not have a
Degree of Difficulty or "K" attached, but rather are rated
on the International HC* scale. (*Holy Cow) and logged
under "Oops".
HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE
The Groundloop is one of the earliest recorded aerobatic
figures. It was performed on virtually all of the taildraggers
dating back to Aviation's infancy. The maneuver
really came into its own during the Golden Era of the
Groundloop which was when the cross-wind landing
was invented. Previous to this, circular landing fields
were the norm and the pilot simply eye-balled the windsock,
and landed into wind. However, it was soon discovered
that a short, straight landing strip could be
plowed out, and now there would be lots of room for
hangars, clubhouse, and an expansive cocktail lounge.
Once everyone saw how much fun this new land-use
concept generated, it was adopted internationally. The
daily Groundloop displays were an instant hit, and
helped cast the new idea in tarmac.
ANALYSIS
Most Groundloops are weathercocking related phenomena.
This means that at least one main wheel must be
touching the earth, and a wind is blowing. Traditionally,
the maneuver is started in a cross-wind; during the landing
roll-out the tail is allowed to be blown down-wind.
At this point there are a variety of options that can be
exercised depending on your inputs, and the maneuver
can take off in almost any direction, and finish in a variety
of attitudes. Groundloops that occur under calm conditions
are more rare, and require vigorous control inputs,
to get them started in contrast to crosswinds where
you do nothing. Sometimes you really have to work at it
to get a decent one.
Groundloops can be generated anywhere from 5MPH to
flying speed. When executed at high speed, the figure
covers more territory and generally spawns the most
interesting variations.
High-wing taildraggers probably Ground loop the best
because the upwind wing is more exposed to the breeze.
The high-wing has less dihedral and also enjoys a longer
arm to really accelerate things once the maneuver starts.
If the airplane is designed with the wheels forming a
small triangle (short-coupled or narrow gear), and in the
hands of the right pilot, this could be a Groundlooping
champion.
ESSENTIAL BACKGROUND KNOWLEDGE
Avoid the study of the following subjects:
a) Cross-wind Landings and Take-offs.
b) Ground-Handling in winds.
Avoid seeking instruction on these subjects, for it will
greatly reduce your chances of producing a truly World-
Class Groundloop. Also, you might want to have a good
line ready in case someone raises one of these subjects in
conversation: "Cross-wind Landings, heck, wasn't that
about lesson 5 on your Private License? I'm way beyond
that.
PREPARATION
To be successful, we must prepare both pilot and aircraft.
PILOT
To perform good Groundloops, the best preparation is
no preparation.
AIRCRAFT
The aircraft can be prepared in a variety of ways to ensure
consistently good Groundloops. First of all, the
main wheels should be shimmed to a toe-in condition. If
the wheels are adjusted to track straight ahead or are
shimmed slightly toe-out, the tracking will be too stable
to assist your attempts at Groundlooping. Keep the tire
pressures different from one another. If you know the
direction of the cross-wind, reduce the pressure on the
up-wind tire before going flying. And remember, it isn't
necessary to change the tires until you can see the second
ply of fabric showing; a blow-out can be the start of a
dazzling Groundloop.
Avoid the hassle of taking off those trouble some wheel-
pants by putting a drop of Loc-tite on the screws. Now
you have a good excuse not to inspect the brakes. So,
when the pads get thin and the brake fails on one side or
the caliper locks up a rusted disc, you will enjoy a splendid
Groundloop.
At the back end, you can start by loosening the fitting
that holds the tail-wheel spring to the fuselage. Just back
the nuts off a few turns. Also back off the nut that attaches
the tail-wheel casting to the spring. Now, slack
off the steering springs a couple of links so the chains
sag. And while you're at it, cut off that lock wire that
some conscientious Engineer installed in case the chains
break. From time to time they break on landing and
produce a thrilling, and rakish Cramer-like lurch. Fantastic!
These simple mods will produce a delightfully loose
rear-end that feels like it's on ball-bearings.
The little tail-wheel is best left alone; over time it becomes
worn into an interesting cone-shape by the effects
of slipstream, P-factor and gyroscopic effect. These left-
turning forces create more wear on the starboard side of
the tire, and soon you have a beautifully unstable little
demon back there to really help you out.
Install the push-to-talk switch in a remote area of the
cockpit. When the tower talks to you on the roll-out, you
can look down into the cockpit to locate the button, and
when you look up, you may be treated to the wonderful
green-and-blue kaleidoscope of rotation about the vertical
axis.
TECHNIQUE (HOW-TO)
Once the pilot and aircraft are prepared, it's a little like
shooting fish in a barrel; there's really nothing to it.
There are several things you can do to get the Ground-
loop going, but really the best thing to do is nothing. Just
let it happen. If you are landing or fast-taxiing in a cross-
EAA Chapter 105 January 2009
wind and you want a Groundloop... you guessed it- do
nothing.
Taxi with abandon. As a pilot, you are a free-spirited
individual, and this can be best displayed by a carefree
jaunt down the taxiway. Just let go of the stick and use
the hands-free time to organize your maps and sequence
cards. If the tail-wheel comes off the ground, you're going
a little fast. Maybe you'll want to use the time to put
on your seatbelt, polish the inside of the canopy, re-tie
your shoelaces or perhaps light up a smoke. Taildraggers
have the right-of-way, so you won't have to stop
suddenly.
When cleared for take-off, start bringing the power up as
you swing out on to the runway. Of course you'll want
to shove the stick forward quickly to get that tail up (you
can't get it up too soon). If the plane will fly at 50, hold it
on until 65. This technique spreads out the landing gear
and brushes off some rubber, but everybody does it and
it looks cool. If you get rolling quickly, any cross-wind
won't matter. Now rotate as you would a 767. Haul
straight back and blaze into the blue. The right turn and
stall that follows will be sensational.
On the approach, keep it low and fast. If the airplane
lands at 50, cross the fence at 100. It's best not to have a
planned touchdown point because that can interfere
with the free-spirited nature of the flying event. Start
fanning the rudders through 500 feet, and keep it going
until you've cleared the runway. The fanning technique
is to confuse the airplane and let it know who's boss. Get
the plane down to the runway as soon as possible, and
force it to land with plenty of forward stick. The fast-
landing method is good for all weather conditions, especially
quartering tail-winds. Once the plane is firmly on
the ground, let go of the stick, but keep fanning the rudder
to cool the tail-wheel assembly. Taxi in as you taxied
out except dont touch the stick.
VARIATIONS
1. 45-Degree Overland Express.
This one is best done at about 40 MPH. The airplane is
allowed to weathercock slightly, the upwind wing and
wheel are allowed to rise about 3O degrees and the plane
swings into the wind. At 45 degrees off the runway
heading, sharp downwind brake, full aft stick and aileron
into wind are added to stop the Groundloop. The
plane is now headed off overland. This is useful for taking
a short-cut to the washrooms after a long flight.
2. 90-Degree Quick Left Turn with Prop Curl.
With a left crosswind, use the same technique as above,
except at about 20 MPH. When you stomp on the downwind
brake, also shove the stick forward. Even though
you are traveling slower, the gyroscopic effect of shoving
the stick forward will give you that extra 45 degrees of
rotation. The tail will rise briskly. As soon as the prop
touches the runway, pull hard back on the stick and apply
both brakes. This was how the original Q-Tip Propeller
was invented. If you've done it just right, you'll
probably have a much more efficient prop.
The Prop Curl can also be done straight ahead. Taxi at
about 10 MPH while tucking in your shirt or cleaning
your sunglasses. Keep your hands off the stick and slam
on the brakes. Voila! Also try this while maneuvering the
tail-wheel over an obstacle. For a more dramatic Curl,
hold the stick forward and add a burst of power. You
dont even need to be moving. Just keep your hands off
the stick and your eyes inside the cockpit while doing
your run-up.
3. Pitts Special Twin Arcs.
Start the Groundloop from the roll-out at about 25 MPH.
Remove all cross-wind inputs and allow the airplane to
weathercock. Move the stick forward to at least neutral
to lighten the tail-wheel and reduce its directional control.
The little biplane will rise upon the downwind
wheel and begin a concise pirouette.
The downwind wing-tip will hit the runway and begin
scribing an arc of red butyrate, Dacron and plywood.
Without hesitation slam in full upwind aileron, as if to
attempt to lift the lower wing. The downwind aileron
will shoot down and describe a beautiful red arc parallel
to that made by the wing-tip. Pull the stick full back,
push full downwind brake with full rudder and a burst
of power to erect the plane. These little red arcs are very
artistic and will attract a good crowd in the evening
following the days flying.
4. 180-Degree Pirouette with back-track
This one is best attempted in a light high-wing with narrow
bungee landing gear, a Cub will do. The maneuver
works best in a quartering tail-wind. This figure looks
difficult, but is really pretty simple. It works best if the
pilot is dyslectic.
Get the weather-cocking started in the usual manner.
Move aileron out-of-wind and push the stick forward to
get weight off the tail. 20 MPH is fine. As the up-wind
wing rises, the center of gravity swings as a pendulum
toward the lower wing. About the time the down-going
wing smacks the runway, the center of gravity will have
swung to the outside of the downwind wheel. Apply
this brake hard. Now it's as if you had two upwind
wheels because the center of gravity has migrated outside
via centrifugal force. So now it wouldn't matter
which brake you applied, the effect would be to increase
the rotation of the Groundloop.
As you come around into the wind the wing-tip lifts off
the tarmac, the brake completed a full 180-degree turn.
You are now rolling backwards down the runway. Release
the brakes and practice sailing like a Seaplane.
5. Groundloop with Bunt.
This is certainly one of the more dramatic figures in the
Groundloop family. You'll want to be traveling a little
faster to get this one. Say 35 MPH. The figure should
start slowly then get faster and tighter as rotation sets in.
A dry runway is necessary, and a quartering tail-wind
from the left is best. Once rotation starts, shove in full
down-wind stick and full forward elevator. This will
really tighten up the rotation. Now add full brakes and
full power. The tail will shoot upwards and the airplane
will do a kind of shoulder roll right on to its back. This is
really low-level inverted parking and you should ensure
that your belts are very tight. This figure should be reserved
for the last flight of the day.
CONCLUSION
The Groundloop has been around for almost a century
and I'm sure it will be with us forever. To keep it alive,
all we have to do is be a little complacent, a little cocksure
and in a little hurry. Most important, one needs a
thorough understanding of flying an Ercoupe. Sounds
pretty easy to me.
____________________________________________________________
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| Subject: | Ground Loop Instruction |
The correct address is:
www.eaa105.org
David Estapa
____________________________________________________________
Best Weight Loss Program - Click Here!
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| Subject: | Re: Ground Loop Instruction |
On Fri, January 2, 2009 7:57 am, C. David Estapa wrote:
clip clip
> CONCLUSION
>
> The Groundloop has been around for almost a century
> and I'm sure it will be with us forever. To keep it alive,
> all we have to do is be a little complacent, a little cocksure
> and in a little hurry. Most important, one needs a
> thorough understanding of flying an Ercoupe. Sounds
> pretty easy to me.
Excellent post Mr. Estapa!
I really found this one informative. Didn't some models of the Ercoupe completely
lack rudder controls?
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
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| Subject: | Re: Ground Loop Instruction |
Paul, I know the first models did not have rudder pedals. My brother
owned one. Don't know about the last ones produced. I know many have been
converted to include rudder pedals.
David
Do not archive
On Fri, 2 Jan 2009 09:39:27 -0800 (PST) "Paul Franz - Merlin GT"
<paul@eucleides.com> writes:
> <paul@eucleides.com>
>
> On Fri, January 2, 2009 7:57 am, C. David Estapa wrote:
> <davestapa@juno.com>
> I really found this one informative. Didn't some models of the
> Ercoupe completely
> lack rudder controls?
>
> --
> Paul A. Franz
> Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
> Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
> Bellevue WA
> 425.241.1618 Cell
>
>
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________
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| Subject: | Everybody ground loops? |
Lowell you are close on your appraisal of the automotive leaf springs. They
too break especially if you let me run the Jeep they are in over a power
corridor. There is a slight difference though only one end of the leaf is
attached directly to the frame of the auto. The other end usually the back
of a rear axle and the front of a front axle is attached to a shackle that
allows the spring to get longer as the curve is pressed out of it. In the
automotive spring the bending occurs more or less evenly the whole length of
the spring while on the plane the bending is concentrated most right where
the aft bolt holds the spring in place and where the tail wheel bolt passes
through the spring.
I think there are a few things to do to try to keep tail spring breaks to a
minimum. One is the NDT that I've mentioned before another is to keep
sprung weight on the tail to a minimum. Weights on the tail wheels or the
lower part of the spring (un-sprung weight) will be more effective for
balancing the plane and will also reduce stresses on the tail spring.
Multiple springs also work to spread the bending over a wider area of the
main leaf thus reducing the stresses on any one point.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lowell Fitt
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 12:15 PM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Everybody ground loops?
I find this type of failure very interesting. Someone may correct my
thinking, but this spring design is very common in ground transportation.
Truck leaf springs are usually constructed of several leaves of ever longer
lengths with the terminal on both ends a single leaf usually wound into a
tube that a bushing and bolt is inserted through to attatch to a shackle
then to the frame.
What is wrong with our system that failures are as common as they are.
Could it be that the supplier needs to check his heat treating temps a bit
better? With the number of vehicles out there with essentially this set-up,
why don't we see more broken springs on the side of the road. And before
someone suggests the impact of landing on the spring, wait until you drive
over California's highways paved in potholes.
Regarding a stress riser, I agree with Gary that this may be part of the
issue. The only Grove tailspring failure I am personally familiar with was
right at the forward edge of the tailwheel attachment - a squared off sharp
edge. On my pickiup there is a plastic disk at the end of the aux leaf to,
I suppose, spread the stress over three or so inches rather than at the
immediate end of the aux leaf.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: <gary.algate@sandvik.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 9:34 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Everybody ground loops?
Noel
I think my spring was poorly designed - It has two leaves but the upper
(shorter one) was finished with a pointed end, as the lower leaf flexed at
this point it raised considerable stress leading to the failure.
I think I would check any springs out there and if it is finished like
mine I would grind the point off and leave it flat with rounded corners.
I did not see an signs of cracking prior to the failure as it propagated
from below the stress riser and at the bottom of the spring.
I am having new leaves manufactured here in Adelaide and in future I am
going to change them biannually.
Regards
Gary
Gary Algate
Classic 4 Jab 2200
Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
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?This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have
made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe and happy
Christmas".
"Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
02/01/2009 12:07 PM
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Subject
RE: Kitfox-List: Everybody ground loops?
Is there any NDT way to test the tail wheel spring at regular intervals.
I?m thinking eddy current but not sure if it will work on ferrous metals.
Lots of FBOs have eddy current machines not to mention magnetic flux and
dye penetrate. Dye penetrant should work same as flux... check the
spring every annual.
It may not be perfect but it?s better than ripping up your rudder.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
gary.algate@sandvik.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 4:07 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Everybody ground loops?
I didn't ground loop today but I did break my tailwheel spring. I had just
landed and was taxiing past the main viewing area (of course) when I heard
a crunch and felt a bump.
I knew straight away what had happened and really didn't want to get out
and see the damage to my rudder.
Today was a good day as the spring broke just above the wheel and there
was enough left to hold the rudder about 1/2" above the ground. I have the
2 x leaf spring version and I check it before each flight so there was
little or no warning.
I am going to have a three leaf spring manufactured this week!
Gary
Gary Algate
Classic 4 Jab 2200
Office Phone: +61 8 8276 7655
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?This year, instead of sending you a Christmas card in the mail, we have
made a contribution to UNICEF Australia. We wish you a safe and happy
Christmas".
John Allen <kitfoxfugit@yahoo.com>
Sent by: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
31/12/2008 05:50 PM
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Subject
Kitfox-List: Everybody ground loops?
In response to Paul Folbrecht <paul.folbrecht@veribox.net> who wrote:
> I'm considering buying either a half share or a whole share in a
completed
> Fox (TD). I have no TD time and while becoming taildragger-proficient
is
> appealing to me, ground-looping one is *not*!
>
> So.... assuming I get a GOOD TG endorsement from a GOOD instructor, and
> GOOD training in the Kitfox, honestly, should I _seriously_ expect to
> ground-loop it at *some* point?
>
> How about this - everybody who's got 50, 100, 200, 500, etc. hours in
> Kitfoxes while never looping raise your hand! :)
The following is just my opinion for what it is worth to try to answer the
question you pose for someone considering transition from heavy nosewheels
to a light taildragger Kitfox. I don't think it is hours that determine
whether a groundloop will occur. I have flown over 5 hours at a time with
only one takeoff and one landing. It seems that there are a number of
factors that are involved, some of which are listed below, not in a
particular order.
1. Design of the aircraft. Width of mains, wider is better (Grove gear is
wider than tube gear on Kitfox). Springiness of gear, stiffness, ability
to absorb shock without bouncing (I found tube gear stiff and bouncy).
Ability to get tail down in flare (difficult in mine, especially with full
flaps). Side area exposed to crosswinds - low on a Kitfox is good.
Visibility over the nose when flaring (none in mine, I use peripheral
vision of the ground plane). Landing speed, slower is better. Speedsters
land faster due to shorter wings and probably the undercambered wing
models (I, II, III) land much slower.
2. Construction of Aircraft. Alignment of wheels (I had to align my tube
gear). Type tires, square shoulder (I had) or round (I have now). Proper
angle of tailwheel. Tailwheel spring slack. Gas line on inside of
firewall that will catch the sole of your shoe when stepping on the brake
(I had to fix that). Type of brakes installed (mine were very weak). Dual
brakes (easier to get an instructor; mine has brakes on LH side only, I
had to learn to fly it from RH side first). Type of tailwheel (I have
never changed mine). Type of prop; the Rotax cannot be idled below 1800;
the Ivoprop I have on it now acts like a speed brake in flatter pitch.
3. Maintenance of Aircraft. Brakes, too good is better but can grab or
nose you over if you apply them hard; too bad won't arrest an incipient
groundloop, sticking can cause one. Tire type and condition; you don't
want a flat. Alignment (of tube gear). Tailwheel condition. Tailwheel
spring (can loosen or break). Tailwheel turning springs and fasteners
condition (failure will leave you without steering). Bungees (if you have
them, you don't want them to break; also be sure you have snare cables
attached). Making sure all control linkages and surfaces are fully
functional.
4. Experience of pilot. Comfort level in the aircraft. Ability to be on
top of it, ahead of it, to make it do what is wanted and not overcontrol
it. Airspeed control; knowing and using appropriate speeds especially in
the area of reverse command over the fence and what is needed for turns
and gusts. Using tailwheel steering until rudder can take over on takeoff
(mine has little rudder authority at first and wants to shoot off to the
left if you lift the tail early). Adding rudder with throttle. Number of
takeoffs and landings, especially recent experience. More make you more in
control. Crosswind technique and experience, amount and strength of wind.
This is needed in mountainous areas where runways are not always oriented
into the prevailing wind. Techniques for gusts. Mountain strips. Type
of surface, hard, soft, grass, dirt, gravel, wet, soft, rough, short,
sloped.
5. Operation. Loaded Weight, heavier lands faster but is not as apt to
"float" if you come in too fast. CG, aft makes lifting tail harder but
helps get tail down on landing. Keeping controls free. Taxiing technique
with wind. Paying attention at all times while moving; no distractions.
S-turns. Pilot condition. You will find your technique flawless at times
and sub-par at other times.
My own observations:
Despite having learned in and flown mostly taildraggers in the past, I
found my Kitfox IV Speedster to be a handful at first. It was not for
beginners, the way it was set up. I never found out why. The Grove gear
finally tamed it. It is not easy to find an instructor for Kitfoxes. The
main tailwheel instructor I know in our area will not fly it, having tried
one he does not want to add a groundloop to his resume. Experience in a
Champ is not the same, since by contrast you can see well out the front,
it lands slowly, takes lots of control movement, and has very forgiving
gear. A Champ is so docile it makes a Cessna 150 seem hard to land by
comparison. The Kitfox is sensitive on the controls, calling for a light
but authoritative touch. It will do just what you ask it to do, whether
or not you realize what you are asking of it. You will consider a Cessna
to fly like a truck after flying a Kitfox.
You can do it if you make the commitment to develop and practice good
technique on every takeoff and landing; lots of people with varying
experience do it successfully as you can see from the list. If you start
on a suitable airport with a well-designed aircraft, assembled and
maintained properly, practice a lot, keep current, pay attention, and
expand your envelope as your experience increases, you should be OK.
Tricky conditions are, if course, riskier. Even if you stay on runways,
cross-countries can present you with challenging conditions for which you
have to be prepared to handle when you are tired. It is not going to be
as forgiving of slamming it into the ground nor will it jerk itself
straight out of a bad landing like a nosewheel-equipped Cessna will.
JA KF IV Speedster @ O70
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| Subject: | Broken tail wheel springs |
I have put this information out there at least 2 times. It appears that no
spring has ever broken with a pneumatic tail wheel. You can never have a
broken spring again or be the very first. Those hard rubber tail wheels ar
e very hard on springs. I think even leaf springs on cars have rubber shoc
k mounting.
Clint
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| Subject: | Broken tail wheel springs |
Yes Clint and under the roughest conditions leaf springs on cars will break
too.
My father's VJ-22 Sportsman had a pneumatic tail wheel and he continuously
broke it. The balance on his plane was, let's just say a special case!
I can see what your point is and You are probably right I also expect a
pneumatic tail wheel pumped up to half the regular pressure will probably
soften the wear and tear on the tail spring considerably.
I wonder how many of the people who have had reoccurring breakages of their
tail wheel also have their batteries installed right over the wheel to
balance the plane.
Noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clint Bazzill
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 10:39 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Broken tail wheel springs
I have put this information out there at least 2 times. It appears that no
spring has ever broken with a pneumatic tail wheel. You can never have a
broken spring again or be the very first. Those hard rubber tail wheels are
very hard on springs. I think even leaf springs on cars have rubber shock
mounting.
Clint
Message 13
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All,
I thought it might be time for a new topic,
I have a Model 5 I am rebuilding after a ground loop (No, I did not
ground
loop it, I bought it that way). The main wings have 13 gallon wing tanks
in
each and it appears the builder installed a full cap strip on a spacer
that
is glued to the bottom of the wing tank where the wing rib would
normally be
if the tank was not there. . I removed the sumping port and used a bore
camera with a 3=92 lead slid in between the fabric and the tank to
inspect it.
I did not see anything in the build manual that indicated installing
this
capstrip across the tank; has anyone else installed this capstrip across
the
bottom center of their 13 gallon wing tanks? The reason I am asking is
because it has come loose from the spacer it was glued to and is now
only
attached to the fabric, the spacer is still attached to the wing tank.
My
thought was to install 2 inspection access ports next to it and either
repair it or remove it. It does not appear that it came loose as a
result of
the ground loop, looks to have been that way for a while, both wings
have
them and they both appear to be loose.
Lloyd Cudnohufsky
Model 5 912ul IVO IFA
Upper Mi.
Checked by AVG.
1/1/2009
5:01 PM
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Repairs |
Lloyd, that rib is part of the kit. I have it on mine - 1992 Model IV
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cudnohufsky's" <7suds@Chartermi.net>
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 8:05 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Wing Repairs
All,
I thought it might be time for a new topic,
I have a Model 5 I am rebuilding after a ground loop (No, I did not ground
loop it, I bought it that way). The main wings have 13 gallon wing tanks in
each and it appears the builder installed a full cap strip on a spacer that
is glued to the bottom of the wing tank where the wing rib would normally be
if the tank was not there. . I removed the sumping port and used a bore
camera with a 3 lead slid in between the fabric and the tank to inspect it.
I did not see anything in the build manual that indicated installing this
capstrip across the tank; has anyone else installed this capstrip across the
bottom center of their 13 gallon wing tanks? The reason I am asking is
because it has come loose from the spacer it was glued to and is now only
attached to the fabric, the spacer is still attached to the wing tank. My
thought was to install 2 inspection access ports next to it and either
repair it or remove it. It does not appear that it came loose as a result of
the ground loop, looks to have been that way for a while, both wings have
them and they both appear to be loose.
Lloyd Cudnohufsky
Model 5 912ul IVO IFA
Upper Mi.
Checked by AVG.
1/1/2009
5:01 PM
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