Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:30 AM - Re: Trailering a Kitfox (WurlyBird)
2. 06:43 AM - Re: Re: Trailering a Kitfox (Bob Brennan)
3. 07:13 AM - Re: Re: Trailering a Kitfox (Cudnohufsky's)
4. 07:15 AM - Re: Re: Trailering a Kitfox (Marco Menezes)
5. 07:29 AM - Re: Re: Trailering a Kitfox (steve shinabery)
6. 07:32 AM - Re: Re: Trailering a Kitfox (Daniel Wild)
7. 07:39 AM - Re: Re: Trailering a Kitfox (aerobatics@aol.com)
8. 08:49 AM - Re: Everybody ground loops? (Don G)
9. 09:21 AM - Re: Re: Trailering a Kitfox (David Jones)
10. 12:00 PM - Re: Re: Trailering a Kitfox (kirk hull)
11. 12:20 PM - Re: Wing Repairs (Lynn Matteson)
12. 12:35 PM - Re: Trailering a Kitfox (Paul Franz - Merlin GT)
13. 12:52 PM - Re: Re: Trailering a Kitfox (Bob Brennan)
14. 01:01 PM - Re: Re: Trailering a Kitfox (Bob Brennan)
15. 01:35 PM - Re: Re: Trailering a Kitfox (kirk hull)
16. 04:43 PM - Re: Re: Trailering a Kitfox (Bob Brennan)
17. 05:22 PM - Re: Re: Trailering a Kitfox (Lynn Matteson)
18. 05:38 PM - Re: Re: Trailering a Kitfox (Bob Brennan)
19. 07:22 PM - Re: Re: Trailering a Kitfox (Lowell Fitt)
20. 07:54 PM - Re: Trailering a Kitfox (akflyer)
21. 08:01 PM - Re: Re: Trailering a Kitfox (Noel Loveys)
22. 08:09 PM - Re: Re: Everybody ground loops? (Noel Loveys)
23. 08:43 PM - Kitfox trailers (jerry evans)
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a Kitfox |
Here is another question that seems to be on topic here, and important to me since
I am going to have to trailer my Kitfox from Orlando to Nashville.
How have you all been handling the tail control surfaces in tow? Do you just allow
them full deflection to one side and let the wind (or a bungee) hold it in
place? Can this cause any warping to the control surfaces or damage to the
stops? What are the max towing speeds you have happily used with no issues?
I was considering making a rudder-lock like we used on gliders, out of wood bracing
and some sort of padding. Basically it will end up being a slotted piece
of wood that fits over the top of the rudder and V-stab. Any thoughts on this
idea?
I have gotten a lot of good ideas of how to set the plane up for her tow home from
this thread already, I just need a few more. Thanks.
--------
Prospective Kitfox buyer
Here for information on airframes and engines
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222547#222547
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a Kitfox |
These questions are best answered if you give us a bit more information
James (I assume is your name?). I trailer my Model 2 all the time on a car
trailer and also have the original Denney-supplied tow kit. As I understand
from posts on this list different models have very different towing
requirements.
To start you off I have attached a picture of my KFII tail section ready for
the road, speeds up to 50 mph but that is a self-imposed limit and I don't
have far to go.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of WurlyBird
Sent: 03 January 2009 9:30 am
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox
<james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil>
Here is another question that seems to be on topic here, and important to me
since I am going to have to trailer my Kitfox from Orlando to Nashville.
How have you all been handling the tail control surfaces in tow? Do you
just allow them full deflection to one side and let the wind (or a bungee)
hold it in place? Can this cause any warping to the control surfaces or
damage to the stops? What are the max towing speeds you have happily used
with no issues?
I was considering making a rudder-lock like we used on gliders, out of wood
bracing and some sort of padding. Basically it will end up being a slotted
piece of wood that fits over the top of the rudder and V-stab. Any thoughts
on this idea?
I have gotten a lot of good ideas of how to set the plane up for her tow
home from this thread already, I just need a few more. Thanks.
--------
Prospective Kitfox buyer
Here for information on airframes and engines
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222547#222547
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a Kitfox |
WurlyBird,
I purchased a damaged Kitfox in Indiana and towed it to Upper Michigan,
about 500 miles. I opted to remove the wings and wrap them in blankets and
lay them under the fuselage, they already had some damage and I was not
worried about scuffing the finish, Flaperons were also removed from the
wings. If you decide to fold and transport the outboard end of the wings
will need to be supported, there are also hold back brackets that were
supplied with some kits that attach the outboard strut area of the wings to
the vertical tail area. You will want to be aware of the weight on the tail
wheel in the folded position and decide how to address. A rudder lock as you
described is a good idea and I believe many on this list have used them for
transport. I believe a couple thin boards with padding and a couple bolt is
all that is required. I towed on an open trailer, aircraft facing forward
and towed at speeds up to 75 mph. I secured at the main gear (Grove) and the
tail wheel. There has been allot of discussion about towing on the tail
wheel with the wings folded because it adds allot of weight there and, I did
not have that problem, perhaps other can give you there experience on that
topic. Took me 5 hours with 2 helpers to drain all the fuel, remove the
wings and flaperons, load and secure.
Lloyd
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of WurlyBird
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 8:30 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox
<james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil>
Here is another question that seems to be on topic here, and important to me
since I am going to have to trailer my Kitfox from Orlando to Nashville.
How have you all been handling the tail control surfaces in tow? Do you
just allow them full deflection to one side and let the wind (or a bungee)
hold it in place? Can this cause any warping to the control surfaces or
damage to the stops? What are the max towing speeds you have happily used
with no issues?
I was considering making a rudder-lock like we used on gliders, out of wood
bracing and some sort of padding. Basically it will end up being a slotted
piece of wood that fits over the top of the rudder and V-stab. Any thoughts
on this idea?
I have gotten a lot of good ideas of how to set the plane up for her tow
home from this thread already, I just need a few more. Thanks.
--------
Prospective Kitfox buyer
Here for information on airframes and engines
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222547#222547
Checked by AVG.
1:10 PM
Checked by AVG.
1:10 PM
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a Kitfox |
James,
-
I trailer my Model 2 every time I fly. Though it's only about 5 miles to th
e airport, I've towed routinely at 60mph with no issues. Rudder deflection
is not a problem, held in place as it is by a carpet pad protecting the rud
der and v-stab from the folded wings and flaperons. I-stabillize the elev
ator in up position with a bungie holding-the stick full-back.- Wings a
re supported forward and aft by towing braces.-
-
Mud flaps are, obviously,-essential on towing vehicle. With an open trail
er, you will still likely have-infequent damage from stones thrown by pas
sing vehicles. Keep your roll of 100mph tape handy. Tail-first, tail-elevat
ed trailering is recommended for open trailer towing. Closed trailers are n
ice but can cost- near as much as your airplane.
-
Finally, be sure to unload the tail spring. The tail is very heavy with the
wings back, especially if you haven't de-fueled after flight (I always do)
. Install a brace to transfer the weight of the heavy tail to the trailer f
rame. This will spare the tw spring from the extreme wear it will otherwise
experience during-transport. I'm sure this factor has contributed to at
least-some of those broken tail springs that have been reported.
-
IMHO, the Fox's trailering capability is one of it's finest qualities.
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch
--- On Sat, 1/3/09, WurlyBird <james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil> wrote:
From: WurlyBird <james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil>
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox
<james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil>
Here is another question that seems to be on topic here, and important to m
e
since I am going to have to trailer my Kitfox from Orlando to Nashville.
How have you all been handling the tail control surfaces in tow? Do you ju
st
allow them full deflection to one side and let the wind (or a bungee) hold
it in
place? Can this cause any warping to the control surfaces or damage to the
stops? What are the max towing speeds you have happily used with no issues
?
I was considering making a rudder-lock like we used on gliders, out of wood
bracing and some sort of padding. Basically it will end up being a slotted
piece of wood that fits over the top of the rudder and V-stab. Any thought
s on
this idea?
I have gotten a lot of good ideas of how to set the plane up for her tow ho
me
from this thread already, I just need a few more. Thanks.
--------
Prospective Kitfox buyer
Here for information on airframes and engines
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222547#222547
=0A=0A=0A
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a Kitfox |
WurlyBird wrote:
>
> Here is another question that seems to be on topic here, and important to me
since I am going to have to trailer my Kitfox from Orlando to Nashville.
>
> How have you all been handling the tail control surfaces in tow? Do you just
allow them full deflection to one side and let the wind (or a bungee) hold it
in place? Can this cause any warping to the control surfaces or damage to the
stops? What are the max towing speeds you have happily used with no issues?
>
> I was considering making a rudder-lock like we used on gliders, out of wood bracing
and some sort of padding. Basically it will end up being a slotted piece
of wood that fits over the top of the rudder and V-stab. Any thoughts on this
idea?
>
> I have gotten a lot of good ideas of how to set the plane up for her tow home
from this thread already, I just need a few more. Thanks.
>
> --------
> Prospective Kitfox buyer
> Here for information on airframes and engines
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222547#222547
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>
>
This is what I have done..and found out to do..I had made..Braces out of
wood.1X4 in.and used a sleeping bag pad.cut it.and glued it in to
place.I had made 2 for the stab.,1 for each side.and 2 for rudder..I tow
my KF backwards .on trailer.and I all so tie down tail wheel real good
so it does not move at all..all so winch strap,at wing tie downs,to
trailer.but not real tight...that helps stop wind at hi way speeds from
lifting up wings.I can tow my KF at 50-60mph with no problems..but you
do not want to tow on windy days.I had built a custom trailer to haul
airplanes that I sell..I have a trailer company that builds them for
me.and then I sell them..the largest plane that I have hauled on it was
a Cessna 170.right down the inter state..you just want to make sure.to
tie the tail down tight.so it does not move around on you.all so
rudder+stab.or if you do not..the trailer will move from side to side..I
have hauled airplanes from way out west to Ohio.like this with no
problems..C120-140-170-172 tri pacers etc.I all so rent my trailers
out..Steve Shinabery N554KF
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a Kitfox |
I transported my model 1 from NY to Kansas on a flatbed. tied the tires
down. Put foam between the rudder and wing. I put a couple extra rope tie
downs to hold the wings together. I also put on trailer engine in the front.
I didn't read about supporting the tail wheel till I got home so I forgot to
do that, but my tail spring held up ok so I guess I got lucky there. I drove
65 on interstate 4 lane the whole way. 23 hour drive. I checked every rope
at every gas stop and did have to adjust it a few times.
Dan Wild
Model 1
532
--------------------------------------------------
From: "WurlyBird" <james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil>
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 8:29 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox
<james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil>
Here is another question that seems to be on topic here, and important to me
since I am going to have to trailer my Kitfox from Orlando to Nashville.
How have you all been handling the tail control surfaces in tow? Do you
just allow them full deflection to one side and let the wind (or a bungee)
hold it in place? Can this cause any warping to the control surfaces or
damage to the stops? What are the max towing speeds you have happily used
with no issues?
I was considering making a rudder-lock like we used on gliders, out of wood
bracing and some sort of padding. Basically it will end up being a slotted
piece of wood that fits over the top of the rudder and V-stab. Any thoughts
on this idea?
I have gotten a lot of good ideas of how to set the plane up for her tow
home from this thread already, I just need a few more. Thanks.
--------
Prospective Kitfox buyer
Here for information on airframes and engines
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222547#222547
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a Kitfox |
I have a fully enclosed trailer insulated with ramp electric winch
with remot... interior lights alarm etc that needs some work for
sale if that helps...
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Everybody ground loops? |
OK..My hand is up...but very hesitantly...
about 200 hours in my Speedster IV so far...and no Ground-loops...but I did touch
a wingtip on pavement once at about 50 hours in it...whew...close! (not much
wind that day either)
I learned to fly in 150s in Oklahoma in the 70's...always windy there, so I got
accustomed to wind early on. Since then have flown many types, and a few different
taildraggers. Also currently Own a Luscombe 8A.
Stopped logging my hours a few years back.
My first flight in a fox was when I purchased this one..1st experimental out of
5 I have owned I didn't build. Actually, never even rode in one prior. My impression
that day...and it was calm winds.."wow...what a squirrelly sucker this
is on the ground...must be set up wrong."
So I checked the gear alignment...rudder linkages...everything I could think of...it
all looked ok..hmmm..must be me. Stayed off the pavement for many hours...
trying very hard to master the ground handling of this short coupled..narrow
geared bird. At 50 hours I figgered I had it..but then the wingtip touch on
landing...GULP..
I had another Kitfox owner/pilot hangered right next to me, and he made it look
so easy. His was a long wing , 582 powered babe and he was without a doubt a
much better pilot than I...I didnt know where or when He started, but he flew
PBYs from Hawaii during ww-2 , and since they started giving him trouble about
medicals..flew a gryo and a Z-max and the Fox frequently...the man loved flying
and was as smooth as I have seen to date.
After 30 years am I loosing it? I thought...when My buddy has near 60 and he still
puts me to shame?
Then...2 things happened. I scared my wife on a takeoff at a fly-in we attended...and...My
buddy...he ground-looped his long-wing and put it in the corn next
to a turf runway and broke it near in two. IT was HIS first ground-loop. Yea..I
know..he is pretty old, cant walk well and maybe he just got behind it...but....
I was on the phone to Grove the next week...and ordered their conversion. Time
in this bird since I got it by the way was 105 hrs.
I didn't want to sell it because in the air...its the most fun aircraft I have
ever owned. I absolutely love the way this thing flys..I just don't like the way
it drives! I love the power of this 80 hp rotax and its short feild takeoff..top
speed and economy...everything...but when its on the ground.
Since the wider Grove gear installation..have had no incidents and it seems to
be much more docile on the ground. (unless after over 200 hrs in it now am finally
learning) Still not for those who don't pay attention. Compared to my Luscombe,
the kitfox is still a handfull even with the Grove gear. My wife...well
she still flys with me, and a comment she made after a few trips with the new
gear as we were taxing to the hanger.."Well...I guess it was worth all that money
YOU SPENT on those new wheel things. You are doing much better on those landings".
"You havent scared me once this year".
I thought to myself...Yet.....hehe.
--------
Don G.
Central Illinois
Kitfox IV Speedster
Luscombe 8A
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222591#222591
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a Kitfox |
James,
The first photo shows the tail wheel support and the second shows the front
spar brace that you will need. By the way this is not my aircraft.
David
KF II, HKS
On Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 8:29 AM, WurlyBird <james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil>wrote:
> james.t.trizzino@us.army.mil>
>
> Here is another question that seems to be on topic here, and important to
> me since I am going to have to trailer my Kitfox from Orlando to Nashville.
>
> How have you all been handling the tail control surfaces in tow? Do you
> just allow them full deflection to one side and let the wind (or a bungee)
> hold it in place? Can this cause any warping to the control surfaces or
> damage to the stops? What are the max towing speeds you have happily used
> with no issues?
>
> I was considering making a rudder-lock like we used on gliders, out of wood
> bracing and some sort of padding. Basically it will end up being a slotted
> piece of wood that fits over the top of the rudder and V-stab. Any thoughts
> on this idea?
>
> I have gotten a lot of good ideas of how to set the plane up for her tow
> home from this thread already, I just need a few more. Thanks.
>
> --------
> Prospective Kitfox buyer
> Here for information on airframes and engines
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222547#222547
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a Kitfox |
Attached is a picture of my classic 4 on her trailer. To steady the
vertical I use a plywood brace that slides over the top like a big rigid
sock. The elevator is secured in the full down position with a bungee in
the cabin
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Repairs |
Lloyd-
Here's a shot of my capstrip, and the false ribs I built on both
sides of it. I don't think the manual calls for the false ribs on the
tank, but I figured to keep the same look for the whole wing they
needed to be added. The second shot is of the top false ribs over the
tank. These were 1/8" spruce from the model airplane store.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
On Jan 2, 2009, at 11:05 PM, Cudnohufsky's wrote:
> All,
>
> I thought it might be time for a new topic,
>
> I have a Model 5 I am rebuilding after a ground loop (No, I did not
> ground loop it, I bought it that way). The main wings have 13
> gallon wing tanks in each and it appears the builder installed a
> full cap strip on a spacer that is glued to the bottom of the wing
> tank where the wing rib would normally be if the tank was not
> there. . I removed the sumping port and used a bore camera with a
> 3=92 lead slid in between the fabric and the tank to inspect it. I
> did not see anything in the build manual that indicated installing
> this capstrip across the tank; has anyone else installed this
> capstrip across the bottom center of their 13 gallon wing tanks?
> The reason I am asking is because it has come loose from the spacer
> it was glued to and is now only attached to the fabric, the spacer
> is still attached to the wing tank. My thought was to install 2
> inspection access ports next to it and either repair it or remove
> it. It does not appear that it came loose as a result of the ground
> loop, looks to have been that way for a while, both wings have them
> and they both appear to be loose.
>
>
> Lloyd Cudnohufsky
>
> Model 5 912ul IVO IFA
>
> Upper Mi.
>
>
> Checked by AVG.
> 1/1/2009 5:01 PM
>
--
> ========================
> ========================
> ========================
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a Kitfox |
I have a curious question. Why do you choose to load the aircraft on the trailer
tail
forward?
Is it because that makes it easier to load?
I could understand doing this if the main gear could be lower being behind the
trailer
wheels but not on a flatbed trailer.
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a Kitfox |
Kirk, and anyone else who trailers on a flatbed or knows the answer,
I notice in yours and several other pictures the tailwheel is raised so that
the wings and stabiliser are level, or I assume that is the reason. I
trailer mine with the tailwheel on the deck, specifically so that the wind
while travelling is exerting a downward pressure on the surfaces and
hopefully holding everything in place without flutter. I have never had
rubbing marks of the flaperons against the tail, which are held tight
against it, or any problems with the horizontal control surface which is all
the way down and not secured.
Some have mentioned fears of tailwheel spring damage but my Maule assembly
is very robust and never shown any problems. I secure the wheel itself to an
electric winch cable (used to lower the plane down the ramp) and ratchet
straps tightly to either side.
I would be nervous travelling with the arse up like your picture - can you
share your reasons? Also it looks like your rear inspection plates are off,
or is that a reflection in a shiny surface?
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kirk hull
Sent: 03 January 2009 2:59 pm
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox
Attached is a picture of my classic 4 on her trailer. To steady the
vertical I use a plywood brace that slides over the top like a big rigid
sock. The elevator is secured in the full down position with a bungee in
the cabin
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a Kitfox |
Paul - not sure who your question is directed at but I will give my reasons
for trailering tail-first on a flatbed.
First there are the aerodynamic reasons I just listed in another post - the
airflow while travelling will tend to keep the plane centered and pressed
downward rather than lifted by a gust. I have had straps come off at speed
due to my lazy or hurried tie-down but the plane has never shifted even when
not completely secured. Securing the tailwheel is most important so I have a
redundant system of winch cable and 2 angled straps, any 2 could fail and I
would not lose the plane. Also redundant straps keeping the wings inboard.
Second - I open the wings on the flatbed and push the plane to the ramp,
lower it down the ramp using the winch, then push and lift the tail off the
trailer manually. Same operation in reverse, very easy and quick.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Franz -
Merlin GT
Sent: 03 January 2009 3:32 pm
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox
<paul@eucleides.com>
I have a curious question. Why do you choose to load the aircraft on the
trailer tail
forward?
Is it because that makes it easier to load?
I could understand doing this if the main gear could be lower being behind
the trailer
wheels but not on a flatbed trailer.
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a Kitfox |
The rear inspection plates are off. That is an old photo of the first trip
to the airport and everything was not buttoned up as I did a full inspection
before the first flight. As for the tail being up. That prevents excessive
air loads on the wings in the folded position. With the tail down on the
deck they will create a lot of down force
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 2:48 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox
<matronics@bob.brennan.name>
Kirk, and anyone else who trailers on a flatbed or knows the answer,
I notice in yours and several other pictures the tailwheel is raised so that
the wings and stabiliser are level, or I assume that is the reason. I
trailer mine with the tailwheel on the deck, specifically so that the wind
while travelling is exerting a downward pressure on the surfaces and
hopefully holding everything in place without flutter. I have never had
rubbing marks of the flaperons against the tail, which are held tight
against it, or any problems with the horizontal control surface which is all
the way down and not secured.
Some have mentioned fears of tailwheel spring damage but my Maule assembly
is very robust and never shown any problems. I secure the wheel itself to an
electric winch cable (used to lower the plane down the ramp) and ratchet
straps tightly to either side.
I would be nervous travelling with the arse up like your picture - can you
share your reasons? Also it looks like your rear inspection plates are off,
or is that a reflection in a shiny surface?
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kirk hull
Sent: 03 January 2009 2:59 pm
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox
Attached is a picture of my classic 4 on her trailer. To steady the
vertical I use a plywood brace that slides over the top like a big rigid
sock. The elevator is secured in the full down position with a bungee in
the cabin
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a Kitfox |
Why do you think "with the tail down on the deck it[they?] will create a lot
of down force"? The airfoil only works from leading edge to trailing edge,
in that position (trailering, tail down) the air pressure will just spill to
the sides and center and provide minimal force downward where you want it -
holding it on the flatbed. Seems to work for me, or are my physics wrong?
Lifting the tail can cause varying lift, down pressure, side pressures,
vibration, elevator flapping around, and other bad stuff. As others have
posted about "rubbing on the tail". No? Yes?
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kirk hull
Sent: 03 January 2009 4:29 pm
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox
The rear inspection plates are off. That is an old photo of the first trip
to the airport and everything was not buttoned up as I did a full inspection
before the first flight. As for the tail being up. That prevents excessive
air loads on the wings in the folded position. With the tail down on the
deck they will create a lot of down force
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Brennan
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 2:48 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox
<matronics@bob.brennan.name>
Kirk, and anyone else who trailers on a flatbed or knows the answer,
I notice in yours and several other pictures the tailwheel is raised so that
the wings and stabiliser are level, or I assume that is the reason. I
trailer mine with the tailwheel on the deck, specifically so that the wind
while travelling is exerting a downward pressure on the surfaces and
hopefully holding everything in place without flutter. I have never had
rubbing marks of the flaperons against the tail, which are held tight
against it, or any problems with the horizontal control surface which is all
the way down and not secured.
Some have mentioned fears of tailwheel spring damage but my Maule assembly
is very robust and never shown any problems. I secure the wheel itself to an
electric winch cable (used to lower the plane down the ramp) and ratchet
straps tightly to either side.
I would be nervous travelling with the arse up like your picture - can you
share your reasons? Also it looks like your rear inspection plates are off,
or is that a reflection in a shiny surface?
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kirk hull
Sent: 03 January 2009 2:59 pm
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox
Attached is a picture of my classic 4 on her trailer. To steady the
vertical I use a plywood brace that slides over the top like a big rigid
sock. The elevator is secured in the full down position with a bungee in
the cabin
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a Kitfox |
I think what he means is like a sheet of plywood held flat into the
wind will create a LOT of down force (or up force), but if held with
the edge into the wind, it won't create any down force. I wouldn't
want to try it in any appreciable-speed wind, though : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
do not archive
On Jan 3, 2009, at 7:42 PM, Bob Brennan wrote:
> <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
>
> Why do you think "with the tail down on the deck it[they?] will
> create a lot
> of down force"? The airfoil only works from leading edge to
> trailing edge,
> in that position (trailering, tail down) the air pressure will just
> spill to
> the sides and center and provide minimal force downward where you
> want it -
> holding it on the flatbed. Seems to work for me, or are my physics
> wrong?
> Lifting the tail can cause varying lift, down pressure, side
> pressures,
> vibration, elevator flapping around, and other bad stuff. As others
> have
> posted about "rubbing on the tail". No? Yes?
>
> Bob Brennan - N717GB
> ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
> Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
> Wrightsville Pa
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kirk hull
> Sent: 03 January 2009 4:29 pm
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox
>
>
> The rear inspection plates are off. That is an old photo of the
> first trip
> to the airport and everything was not buttoned up as I did a full
> inspection
> before the first flight. As for the tail being up. That prevents
> excessive
> air loads on the wings in the folded position. With the tail down
> on the
> deck they will create a lot of down force
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob
> Brennan
> Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 2:48 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox
>
> <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
>
> Kirk, and anyone else who trailers on a flatbed or knows the answer,
>
> I notice in yours and several other pictures the tailwheel is
> raised so that
> the wings and stabiliser are level, or I assume that is the reason. I
> trailer mine with the tailwheel on the deck, specifically so that
> the wind
> while travelling is exerting a downward pressure on the surfaces and
> hopefully holding everything in place without flutter. I have never
> had
> rubbing marks of the flaperons against the tail, which are held tight
> against it, or any problems with the horizontal control surface
> which is all
> the way down and not secured.
>
> Some have mentioned fears of tailwheel spring damage but my Maule
> assembly
> is very robust and never shown any problems. I secure the wheel
> itself to an
> electric winch cable (used to lower the plane down the ramp) and
> ratchet
> straps tightly to either side.
>
> I would be nervous travelling with the arse up like your picture -
> can you
> share your reasons? Also it looks like your rear inspection plates
> are off,
> or is that a reflection in a shiny surface?
>
> Bob Brennan - N717GB
> ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
> Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
> Wrightsville Pa
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kirk hull
> Sent: 03 January 2009 2:59 pm
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox
>
> Attached is a picture of my classic 4 on her trailer. To steady the
> vertical I use a plywood brace that slides over the top like a big
> rigid
> sock. The elevator is secured in the full down position with a
> bungee in
> the cabin
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a Kitfox |
I agree Lynn, a flat sheet of plywood held down into the wind will create a
down force, a curved piece of plywood held down into the wind will create a
more stable down force, but a flat piece of plywood held level in the wind
will likely vibrate itself into oblivion. I always tie plywood on my car
roof leading edge down and preferably curved for stability, *never* flat
into the wind.
Not trying to deny basic physics here, just trying to see if there is a
better way of trailering a Kitfox than what I am doing right now. However,
as I said I have lost tiedowns and not lost the plane or even come close; I
am thinking with the wings level into the wind and lost tiedowns the plane
could easily go in the direction of the weakest stability, which would mean
"don't lose a tie-down" with the flying surfaces level. Or am I wrong? I
love a good physics/aerodynamics argument, sorry. ;-s
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Matteson
Sent: 03 January 2009 8:22 pm
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox
I think what he means is like a sheet of plywood held flat into the
wind will create a LOT of down force (or up force), but if held with
the edge into the wind, it won't create any down force. I wouldn't
want to try it in any appreciable-speed wind, though : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 596+ hrs
Sensenich 62x46
flying again after rebuild, and new Electroair direct-fire ignition
system;
also building a new pair of snow skis
do not archive
On Jan 3, 2009, at 7:42 PM, Bob Brennan wrote:
> <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
>
> Why do you think "with the tail down on the deck it[they?] will
> create a lot
> of down force"? The airfoil only works from leading edge to
> trailing edge,
> in that position (trailering, tail down) the air pressure will just
> spill to
> the sides and center and provide minimal force downward where you
> want it -
> holding it on the flatbed. Seems to work for me, or are my physics
> wrong?
> Lifting the tail can cause varying lift, down pressure, side
> pressures,
> vibration, elevator flapping around, and other bad stuff. As others
> have
> posted about "rubbing on the tail". No? Yes?
>
> Bob Brennan - N717GB
> ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
> Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
> Wrightsville Pa
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kirk hull
> Sent: 03 January 2009 4:29 pm
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox
>
>
> The rear inspection plates are off. That is an old photo of the
> first trip
> to the airport and everything was not buttoned up as I did a full
> inspection
> before the first flight. As for the tail being up. That prevents
> excessive
> air loads on the wings in the folded position. With the tail down
> on the
> deck they will create a lot of down force
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob
> Brennan
> Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 2:48 PM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox
>
> <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
>
> Kirk, and anyone else who trailers on a flatbed or knows the answer,
>
> I notice in yours and several other pictures the tailwheel is
> raised so that
> the wings and stabiliser are level, or I assume that is the reason. I
> trailer mine with the tailwheel on the deck, specifically so that
> the wind
> while travelling is exerting a downward pressure on the surfaces and
> hopefully holding everything in place without flutter. I have never
> had
> rubbing marks of the flaperons against the tail, which are held tight
> against it, or any problems with the horizontal control surface
> which is all
> the way down and not secured.
>
> Some have mentioned fears of tailwheel spring damage but my Maule
> assembly
> is very robust and never shown any problems. I secure the wheel
> itself to an
> electric winch cable (used to lower the plane down the ramp) and
> ratchet
> straps tightly to either side.
>
> I would be nervous travelling with the arse up like your picture -
> can you
> share your reasons? Also it looks like your rear inspection plates
> are off,
> or is that a reflection in a shiny surface?
>
> Bob Brennan - N717GB
> ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
> Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
> Wrightsville Pa
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kirk hull
> Sent: 03 January 2009 2:59 pm
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox
>
> Attached is a picture of my classic 4 on her trailer. To steady the
> vertical I use a plywood brace that slides over the top like a big
> rigid
> sock. The elevator is secured in the full down position with a
> bungee in
> the cabin
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a Kitfox |
I think the reason for the tailwheel lift is so less fuel has to be drained
from the tanks before trailering.. It also eases folding and unfolding if
the wings track horizontally rather than down hill. At least that is why
the local trailer guy does it. He loads with the wings out and then folds
the wings, and infolds while on the trailer.
Lowell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Brennan" <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 12:48 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox
> <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
>
> Kirk, and anyone else who trailers on a flatbed or knows the answer,
>
> I notice in yours and several other pictures the tailwheel is raised so
> that
> the wings and stabiliser are level, or I assume that is the reason. I
> trailer mine with the tailwheel on the deck, specifically so that the wind
> while travelling is exerting a downward pressure on the surfaces and
> hopefully holding everything in place without flutter. I have never had
> rubbing marks of the flaperons against the tail, which are held tight
> against it, or any problems with the horizontal control surface which is
> all
> the way down and not secured.
>
> Some have mentioned fears of tailwheel spring damage but my Maule assembly
> is very robust and never shown any problems. I secure the wheel itself to
> an
> electric winch cable (used to lower the plane down the ramp) and ratchet
> straps tightly to either side.
>
> I would be nervous travelling with the arse up like your picture - can you
> share your reasons? Also it looks like your rear inspection plates are
> off,
> or is that a reflection in a shiny surface?
>
> Bob Brennan - N717GB
> ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
> Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
> Wrightsville Pa
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kirk hull
> Sent: 03 January 2009 2:59 pm
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox
>
> Attached is a picture of my classic 4 on her trailer. To steady the
> vertical I use a plywood brace that slides over the top like a big rigid
> sock. The elevator is secured in the full down position with a bungee in
> the cabin
>
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a Kitfox |
Paul A. Franz, P.E. wrote:
> I have a curious question. Why do you choose to load the aircraft on the trailer
tail
> forward?
>
> Is it because that makes it easier to load?
>
> I could understand doing this if the main gear could be lower being behind the
trailer
> wheels but not on a flatbed trailer.
>
> --
> Paul A. Franz
> Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
> Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
> Bellevue WA
> 425.241.1618 Cell
If you trailer with the nose forward, and go fast, there is concern and I believe
even documented cases where the air rammed into the spars and ballooned the
wing fabric off the ribs. I seem to remember a story of a guy that trailed to
osh kosh or one of the big gatherings, with hopes of flying once there... he
found his wings destroyed when he got there...
As far as trailering with the tail up, you don't have to drain all the fuel out
when you fold the wings.
I roll the mains off the trailer, fold the winds out, then roll the tail off and
fly. To put it back on, set the tail on the trailer, fold the wings, hit the
winch button and suck it up. Strap down and you are on the road in about 15
- 20 minutes.
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222733#222733
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a Kitfox |
I only towed my plane once or twice on wheels and I towed it tail first for
the reason that I thought it would be too difficult to stop wind pressure
from entering the root end of the wing and separating everything inside. I
know it is suggested if you tow forward to cap the spars with tennis balls
to stop air from entering the wing.
I also used the auxiliary supports which attach close to the landing gear
attach points and to the leading edge of the root portion of the wing.
I always defuel the plane for towing. Remember 13 U.S. gal of gas is close
to 100lb. and it is rear of the CG so any fuel in the wings will increase to
stress on the swing point and add more weight to the tail of the plane.
I used a stand with the tail tied three ways to support the plane level. I
figured this would reduce any stress caused by big trucks heading the
opposite direction on the highway.
I used the included restraints that hold the wings in to the tail but I
never trusted them. So I always tie the wing tips together with bungee cord
so there will be no accidents of the wings unfolding in transit. I usually
cover the vertical stab and rudder with heavy cloth so the flapperons will
not rub that area.
Finally I use elevator locks to hold the elevators straight. It not only
stops the elevator from thrashing about like a flag at full mast but doing
that will alleviate any stress that can be put on the elevator control
linkages.
Finally the faster you go the more stress you can expect to put on the
wings... judge yourself accordingly. I only towed at 80 Km/hr. (50mph) on
out smallish highways.
Most of the time my plane is on floats... if you saw my neighbourhood you'd
know why. To launch the plane I have to tow it about two miles to the pond.
The float trailer tows the plane nose first so I limit my speed to 20 Km/hr
A little faster than running speed. Of the two miles I tow the plane only
about a mile and a half is on public roads the rest can best be described as
trails.
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Everybody ground loops? |
When I was training the instructor wanted me to fly one day the winds were
around 25/35. I said once licensed I would stay on the ground on such a day
but I could see that I should be able to handle that wind. Just as we
reached rotation speed a big gust hit us from the from the front starboard
quarter. As soon as it did the plane ballooned to the left but I had
already input lots of down elevator and full right aileron. When the gust
ended the right main touched the runway again and we lifted off. To say it
was bumpy that day would be an understatement. We landed on a different
runway more into the gusts and a little cross to the normal winds with no
problem. That was the day I got to fly backwards!!
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don G
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 1:19 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Everybody ground loops?
OK..My hand is up...but very hesitantly...
about 200 hours in my Speedster IV so far...and no Ground-loops...but I did
touch a wingtip on pavement once at about 50 hours in it...whew...close!
(not much wind that day either)
I learned to fly in 150s in Oklahoma in the 70's...always windy there, so I
got accustomed to wind early on. Since then have flown many types, and a few
different taildraggers. Also currently Own a Luscombe 8A.
Stopped logging my hours a few years back.
My first flight in a fox was when I purchased this one..1st experimental out
of 5 I have owned I didn't build. Actually, never even rode in one prior. My
impression that day...and it was calm winds.."wow...what a squirrelly sucker
this is on the ground...must be set up wrong."
So I checked the gear alignment...rudder linkages...everything I could think
of...it all looked ok..hmmm..must be me. Stayed off the pavement for many
hours... trying very hard to master the ground handling of this short
coupled..narrow geared bird. At 50 hours I figgered I had it..but then the
wingtip touch on landing...GULP..
I had another Kitfox owner/pilot hangered right next to me, and he made it
look so easy. His was a long wing , 582 powered babe and he was without a
doubt a much better pilot than I...I didnt know where or when He started,
but he flew PBYs from Hawaii during ww-2 , and since they started giving him
trouble about medicals..flew a gryo and a Z-max and the Fox
frequently...the man loved flying and was as smooth as I have seen to date.
After 30 years am I loosing it? I thought...when My buddy has near 60 and he
still puts me to shame?
Then...2 things happened. I scared my wife on a takeoff at a fly-in we
attended...and...My buddy...he ground-looped his long-wing and put it in the
corn next to a turf runway and broke it near in two. IT was HIS first
ground-loop. Yea..I know..he is pretty old, cant walk well and maybe he just
got behind it...but....
I was on the phone to Grove the next week...and ordered their conversion.
Time in this bird since I got it by the way was 105 hrs.
I didn't want to sell it because in the air...its the most fun aircraft I
have ever owned. I absolutely love the way this thing flys..I just don't
like the way it drives! I love the power of this 80 hp rotax and its short
feild takeoff..top speed and economy...everything...but when its on the
ground.
Since the wider Grove gear installation..have had no incidents and it seems
to be much more docile on the ground. (unless after over 200 hrs in it now
am finally learning) Still not for those who don't pay attention. Compared
to my Luscombe, the kitfox is still a handfull even with the Grove gear. My
wife...well she still flys with me, and a comment she made after a few trips
with the new gear as we were taxing to the hanger.."Well...I guess it was
worth all that money YOU SPENT on those new wheel things. You are doing much
better on those landings". "You havent scared me once this year".
I thought to myself...Yet.....hehe.
--------
Don G.
Central Illinois
Kitfox IV Speedster
Luscombe 8A
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Message 23
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This is what I had to build to store the kitfox because I could not get a h
anger, this cost me $1100, made from a old -boat trailer, EMT and sheet m
etal. Just have to drain fuel, fold wings and tie down-, tows -great-
, stays dry.- Hand painted the logo ( I did ask the John if I could ) It'
s 8' 6" by 23'-- wings are tight but when tied down-Will not hit the
sides . I have towed it long and short distances,--works for me
Jerry Evans
KitfoxII
Magalia Calif.
N582'er'
kitfox 555
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