Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:19 AM - Re: First Flight - finally (Paul Morel)
2. 06:34 AM - Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox (Chuck Popenoe)
3. 06:55 AM - Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox (Chuck Popenoe)
4. 07:09 AM - Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox (Bob Brennan)
5. 07:21 AM - Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox (Bob Brennan)
6. 07:28 AM - Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox (Marco Menezes)
7. 07:37 AM - kitfox trailer (Ed Gray)
8. 08:03 AM - Re: kitfox trailer (Vic Baker)
9. 08:11 AM - Rotax 912ul for sale (Les Evarts)
10. 08:15 AM - Re: kitfox trailer (Marco Menezes)
11. 08:56 AM - EA 81 Turbo Thermostat (earnestj0)
12. 09:01 AM - Re: Trailering a Kitfox (n85ae)
13. 09:26 AM - Re: Re: Trailering a Kitfox (Bob Brennan)
14. 09:53 AM - Re: Re: Trailering a Kitfox (Rexinator)
15. 09:56 AM - Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat (Jim Crowder)
16. 10:13 AM - Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat (fox5flyer)
17. 10:28 AM - Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat (Rick)
18. 12:17 PM - Re: Trailering a Kitfox (akflyer)
19. 12:25 PM - Re: Trailering a Kitfox (n85ae)
20. 12:53 PM - Re: Re: Trailering a Kitfox (Bob Brennan)
21. 12:59 PM - Re: Re: Trailering a Kitfox (Bob Brennan)
22. 01:16 PM - Re: Trailering a Kitfox (n85ae)
23. 01:38 PM - Re: Trailering a Kitfox (n85ae)
24. 01:43 PM - Re: Trailering a Kitfox (paul wilson)
25. 02:01 PM - Re: Trailering a Kitfox (n85ae)
26. 02:18 PM - Re: Re: Trailering a Kitfox (Bob Brennan)
27. 02:33 PM - Re: Trailering a Kitfox (akflyer)
28. 02:37 PM - Re: Trailering a Kitfox (n85ae)
29. 02:48 PM - Re: Re: Trailering a Kitfox (Marco Menezes)
30. 02:49 PM - Re: Re: Trailering a Kitfox (Bob Brennan)
31. 02:53 PM - Re: Trailering a Kitfox (n85ae)
32. 02:59 PM - Re: Re: Trailering a Kitfox (Bob Brennan)
33. 03:02 PM - Re: Re: Trailering a Kitfox (Bob Brennan)
34. 03:08 PM - Re: Trailering a Kitfox (n85ae)
35. 04:09 PM - Re: Re: Trailering a Kitfox (Gary Glasgow)
36. 04:50 PM - Re: Re: Trailering a Kitfox (fox5flyer)
37. 10:02 PM - Engine Ground strap (Pat Reilly)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: First Flight - finally |
Rick
I used to work in DAB for DL 80-96 then to Flight Control to dispatch.
Also lived in Port Orange and NSB off Tomoka Farms Rd. We need to hook
up sometime. Getting close to my "First Flight" too. Maybe in a couple
of weeks. Ran into a snag with my interior seats and glareshield but
with the help of the kitfox enthusiasts and supporters, I think I'm
going to do fine.
Paul
912 Speedster
Locust Grove, GA
----- Original Message -----
From: Weiss Richard
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 12:15 AM
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: First Flight - finally
Paul,
Thanks. If your airliner had a widget in the logo, you win the prize.
Glad you noticed. It took a few weeks to do.
Rick Weiss
N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS
SkyStar S/N 1
Port Orange, FL
On Jan 8, 2009, at 3:46 PM, Paul Morel wrote:
Rick
Nice job! I really like the paint scheme. Reminds me of an airline
I used to work for ;-)
Paul Morel
912 Speedster
=
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox |
Bob -
I'm on both Kitfox and Avid lists, lots of good stuff! The Avid list is
on Yahoo groups. Try the below URL to get on the Yahoo groups Avid
site. You will have to join in order to see the photos or post
messages, but why not? My photos are under "Pops' Avid A".
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/avid_flyer/?v=1&t=search&ch=web&pub=
groups&sec=group&slk=1
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox |
I would bet anything that the cause of his wrecking the hinge tubes on
the AK roads is the same as what caused my fatigue problem, Without a
fixed outer wing support, while going over rouigh roads, the wings are
fixed only at the rear spar hinge tube and at the lower lift strut hinge
points. Inertial loads cause the wings to pivot around the lower lift
strut hinge and apply alternating loads to the upper hinge tube, which
will cause it to fatigue eventually. The leading edge brace strut may
be a good idea, but will do nothing to prevent this from happening. An
additional strut brace from the tow-bar cross tube to the folding strut
attach tab will, however, take the inertial loads and keep 'em off of
the hinge tube. I use a long 3/8" bolt with a wingnut and safety pin to
attach the struts to the cross tube.
Since making this mod, I have trailered many thousands of miles
successfully.
Pops
Message 4
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| Subject: | Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox |
Thanks Chuck, I've joined the Avid list and enjoyed your pictures. I notice
your "plug-in tube for ground handling" = very clever. I have a tailwheel
dolly which works well but am forever forgetting to remove it before folding
the wings. With the wings folded the tail is much too heavy to lift it off.
But it has a very long handle (not sure if it's a factory accessory) and can
be swung a full 180+ degrees which makes ground handling a cinch.
bob
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Popenoe
Sent: 09 January 2009 9:32 am
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox
Bob -
I'm on both Kitfox and Avid lists, lots of good stuff! The Avid list is on
Yahoo groups. Try the below URL to get on the Yahoo groups Avid site. You
will have to join in order to see the photos or post messages, but why not?
My photos are under "Pops' Avid A".
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/avid_flyer/?v=1
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/avid_flyer/?v=1&t=search&ch=web&pub=groups&se
c=group&slk=1> &t=search&ch=web&pub=groups&sec=group&slk=1
Message 5
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| Subject: | Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox |
That is *exactly* the modification I was going to suggest but you beat me to
it! Whether it is wind-induced oscillations or road-induced doesn't really
matter, those long heavy wings need good vertical support near the tips to
eliminate the fatiguing forces of trailering. I think the front spar support
is essential too for long tows, but even for short distances those wing tips
need support.
I pressure-clamp the wings to the vertical fin and I doubt they move since I
always look for signs of rubbing, but I think your solution is much better.
Is it the "Elevator Restraints and transport struts" photo on the Avid list?
I see the factory-supplied braces to the tail and a strut down to the
transport tube as you described, but it looks a bit thin? I am thinking that
supports from the deck into the transport tube (to stop tail spring bounce
and take the weight off) and then up to the wings would stop any of the
damage we have heard of so far.
BTW - must suck to live within the ADIZ, especially now that it is
permanent.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Popenoe
Sent: 09 January 2009 9:52 am
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox
I would bet anything that the cause of his wrecking the hinge tubes on the
AK roads is the same as what caused my fatigue problem, Without a fixed
outer wing support, while going over rouigh roads, the wings are fixed only
at the rear spar hinge tube and at the lower lift strut hinge points.
Inertial loads cause the wings to pivot around the lower lift strut hinge
and apply alternating loads to the upper hinge tube, which will cause it to
fatigue eventually. The leading edge brace strut may be a good idea, but
will do nothing to prevent this from happening. An additional strut brace
from the tow-bar cross tube to the folding strut attach tab will, however,
take the inertial loads and keep 'em off of the hinge tube. I use a long
3/8" bolt with a wingnut and safety pin to attach the struts to the cross
tube.
Since making this mod, I have trailered many thousands of miles
successfully.
Pops
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox |
Can you post-some pictures Pops? Thanks.
-
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch
-
do not archive
--- On Fri, 1/9/09, Chuck Popenoe <cpops@verizon.net> wrote:
From: Chuck Popenoe <cpops@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox
I would bet anything that the cause of his wrecking the hinge tubes on the
AK roads is the same as what caused my fatigue problem,- Without a fixed
outer wing support, while going over rouigh roads, the wings are fixed only
at the rear spar hinge tube and at the lower lift strut hinge points.- I
nertial loads cause the wings to pivot around the lower lift strut hinge an
d apply alternating loads to the upper hinge tube, which will cause it to f
atigue eventually.- The leading edge brace strut-may be a good idea, bu
t-will do nothing to prevent this from happening.- An additional strut
brace from the tow-bar cross tube to the folding strut attach tab will, how
ever,-take the inertial loads and keep 'em off of the hinge tube.- I us
e a long 3/8" bolt with a wingnut and safety pin to attach the struts to th
e cross tube.-
-
Since making this mod, I have trailered many thousands of miles successfull
y.
-
Pops
=0A=0A=0A
Message 7
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I picked up a 19 foot boat single axle boat trailer for less than 300 with
decent wheels and bearings. I plan on cutting off the aftermost "shallow
vee" and replacing it with a straight "C" beam dropped about 8 inches so the
maingear area will be below the trailer deck and in less wind blast. The
trailer is designed for 1500 -2000 lb load, so I will probably add some iron
weights to get better spring performance and a smoother ride. Underloaded
trailers produce a very bouncy ride. I am thinking about some sort of vee
shaped nose with notches for the hor. Stab, also to reduce turbulence and
road rash. Any suggestions appreciated
Seems to me the tail should be fastened with some foam or spring action on
the attach point to keep the bouncing isolated from the fuse. A light
weight auto coil-over shock from a small car occurs to me. Does fuel
carried in the wing tanks tend to slosh out if the cap vents are plugged?
How about replacing the caps with non-vented ones for towing. My final
thought is conestoga style hoops over the trailer so a 20 by 20 tarp could
be used as a cover for towing and storage. One inch electrical conduit
should make good hoops with sockets welded to the trailer frame.
My 1990 KF II in nearing completion, now wiring and plumbing the engine and
building a wire loom to connect the GRC nav unit to the txpd
Ed Gray Dallas K 2, 582. gsc 3 blade. PS Anyone know an EAA designee
inspector in the Dallas area?
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: kitfox trailer |
Ed,
You should remove the fuel from your tanks before transport. I use a
piece of 3/8 fuel line with a bulb to start the flow. I also use metal
"safety" 5 gal cans for storage. Only takes 10 to 15 minutes to drain
all but 2 or 3 gallons from each of the wing tanks. Of course take all
precautious during the fueling/defueling process to avoid static
discharge.
Vic
Vic Baker
S7 912S Warp
Phase 1 flight testing
Carson City, Nv
----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Gray
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 7:36 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: kitfox trailer
I picked up a 19 foot boat single axle boat trailer for less than 300
with decent wheels and bearings. I plan on cutting off the aftermost
"shallow vee" and replacing it with a straight "C" beam dropped about 8
inches so the maingear area will be below the trailer deck and in less
wind blast. The trailer is designed for 1500 -2000 lb load, so I will
probably add some iron weights to get better spring performance and a
smoother ride. Underloaded trailers produce a very bouncy ride. I am
thinking about some sort of vee shaped nose with notches for the hor.
Stab, also to reduce turbulence and road rash. Any suggestions
appreciated
Seems to me the tail should be fastened with some foam or spring
action on the attach point to keep the bouncing isolated from the fuse.
A light weight auto coil-over shock from a small car occurs to me. Does
fuel carried in the wing tanks tend to slosh out if the cap vents are
plugged? How about replacing the caps with non-vented ones for towing.
My final thought is conestoga style hoops over the trailer so a 20 by 20
tarp could be used as a cover for towing and storage. One inch
electrical conduit should make good hoops with sockets welded to the
trailer frame.
My 1990 KF II in nearing completion, now wiring and plumbing the
engine and building a wire loom to connect the GRC nav unit to the txpd
Ed Gray Dallas K 2, 582. gsc 3 blade. PS Anyone know an EAA designee
inspector in the Dallas area?
Message 9
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| Subject: | Rotax 912ul for sale |
*I am upgrading to the 912 ULS so I have a Rotax 912UL (80hp) with 780 hrs
on it that's looking for a new airframe. I also have a three blade GSC
ground adjustable prop. All SB performed to bring this engine up to a TBO of
1500 hours. I am having the engine inspected to verify SB work and general
serviceability of this engine. Please contact me off list with interested
inquiries.*
* *
*la.evarts@gmail.com*
*406-270-3385*
* *
*do not archive*
--
Les Evarts
Kitfox Model IV-1200
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: kitfox trailer |
Many good ideas here Ed. I particularly like the shock absorber for the tai
lwheel. I use a brace-between fuse and trailer to unload the t-spring dur
ing transport but a shock could both
unload the spring and protect the airplane from potholes. Let us know what
- you come up with.
-
I would recommend defueling the plane for transport. The weight of fuel add
s to the already substantial stress on the tailwheel when wings are folded.
A fuel transfer tank can be added to the trailer to store fuel, add weight
, soften the ride.-Defueling adds a few minutes at the beginning and end
of each flight but, personally, I feel better about storing the airplane "d
ry" between flights.
-
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch
-
--- On Fri, 1/9/09, Ed Gray <egraylaw@swbell.net> wrote:
-
From: Ed Gray <egraylaw@swbell.net>
Subject: Kitfox-List: kitfox trailer
I picked up a 19 foot boat single axle boat trailer for less than 300 with
decent wheels and bearings.- I plan on cutting off the aftermost =93shall
ow vee=94 and replacing it with a straight =93C=94 beam dropped about 8 inc
hes so the maingear area will be below the trailer deck and in less wind bl
ast.- The trailer is designed for 1500 -2000 lb load, so I will probably
add some iron weights to get better spring performance and a smoother ride.
- Underloaded trailers produce a very bouncy ride.- I am thinking about
some sort of vee shaped nose with notches for the hor. Stab, also to reduc
e turbulence and road rash.- Any suggestions appreciated-----
--------
-
Seems to me the tail should be fastened with some foam or spring action on
the attach point to keep the bouncing isolated from the fuse.- A light we
ight auto coil-over shock from a small car occurs to me.- Does fuel carri
ed in the wing tanks tend to slosh out if the cap vents are plugged?- How
about replacing the caps with non-vented ones for towing.- My final thou
ght is conestoga style hoops over the trailer so a 20 by 20 tarp could be u
sed as a cover for towing and storage.- One inch electrical conduit shoul
d make good hoops with sockets welded to the trailer frame.-
-
My 1990 KF II in nearing completion, now wiring and plumbing the engine and
building a wire loom to connect the GRC nav unit to the txpd
-
Ed Gray Dallas K 2, 582. gsc 3 blade.- PS Anyone know an EAA designee ins
pector in the Dallas area?
=0A=0A=0A
Message 11
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| Subject: | EA 81 Turbo Thermostat |
Does anyone know where the thermostat is placed on an NSI EA81 turbo. When I put
this engine back together, I found no place where the thermostat goes. I know
where it is placed on a regular Subaru car engine, but there is no place on
the intake manifold for the NSI where it would normally be placed. Does the
engine actually have a place for it?
Any information would be helpful. Thanks
Ted
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223695#223695
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a Kitfox |
> Way back when -- Skystar was queried at either Osh or at the flyinn? about trailering
an possible damage to the plane. At that time Skystar was using an enclosed
locally built trailer. They had instrumented the trailer & plane and the
result were acceleration spikes that exceeded the calculated plane design limits.
The conclusion was that any trailer must be designed with a very soft ride
and driven at a very slow speed. They left it up to the builder to go from
there. Paul
This is completely flawed, because these momentary spikes mean nothing.
They completely lacked the engineering brainpower to realize that load is
related to force over time. A 10-20G spike because you hit a speed bump
on the road, is not like a 10-20 G sustained load.
This is just somebody looking at the G-meter after towing their plane
and seeing it pegged, and thinking WOW, it pulled 30G's on the trailer!
If this were such a problem, I'd be more worried about breaking the
trailer than the plane, honestly.
You can trailer a kitfox on any kind of trailer, and if you built the plane
well, and properly brace the wings you'll have absolutely no problems.
Regards,
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223696#223696
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a Kitfox |
Sorry Jeff - large momentary spikes cause metal fatigue, not sustained
loads. Metal airframes have a TBF (Time Between Failures) based on flexing
due to spikes, not sustained loads. All metals can only flex a certain
number of times before breaking. And yes, I are a engineer... ;-)
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n85ae
Sent: 09 January 2009 12:01 pm
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox
> Way back when -- Skystar was queried at either Osh or at the flyinn? about
trailering an possible damage to the plane. At that time Skystar was using
an enclosed locally built trailer. They had instrumented the trailer & plane
and the result were acceleration spikes that exceeded the calculated plane
design limits. The conclusion was that any trailer must be designed with a
very soft ride and driven at a very slow speed. They left it up to the
builder to go from there. Paul
This is completely flawed, because these momentary spikes mean nothing.
They completely lacked the engineering brainpower to realize that load is
related to force over time. A 10-20G spike because you hit a speed bump
on the road, is not like a 10-20 G sustained load.
This is just somebody looking at the G-meter after towing their plane
and seeing it pegged, and thinking WOW, it pulled 30G's on the trailer!
If this were such a problem, I'd be more worried about breaking the
trailer than the plane, honestly.
You can trailer a kitfox on any kind of trailer, and if you built the plane
well, and properly brace the wings you'll have absolutely no problems.
Regards,
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223696#223696
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a Kitfox |
This is an interesting exchange. One post claiming the (ex)manufacturer
determined you should be concerned about shock loads while trailering
and another states they lacked the engineering acumen to puzzle through
such a basic problem.
Oh where can the truth be?
Rex Hefferan
SE Colorado, Model 2, 582-C
n85ae wrote:
>
>
>> Way back when -- Skystar was queried at either Osh or at the flyinn? about trailering
an possible damage to the plane. At that time Skystar was using an enclosed
locally built trailer. They had instrumented the trailer & plane and the
result were acceleration spikes that exceeded the calculated plane design limits.
The conclusion was that any trailer must be designed with a very soft ride
and driven at a very slow speed. They left it up to the builder to go from
there. Paul
>>
>
> This is completely flawed, because these momentary spikes mean nothing.
> They completely lacked the engineering brainpower to realize that load is
> related to force over time. A 10-20G spike because you hit a speed bump
> on the road, is not like a 10-20 G sustained load.
>
> This is just somebody looking at the G-meter after towing their plane
> and seeing it pegged, and thinking WOW, it pulled 30G's on the trailer!
>
> If this were such a problem, I'd be more worried about breaking the
> trailer than the plane, honestly.
>
> You can trailer a kitfox on any kind of trailer, and if you built the plane
> well, and properly brace the wings you'll have absolutely no problems.
>
> Regards,
> Jeff
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | EA 81 Turbo Thermostat |
When I had a NSI EA81 engine, we placed the thermostat in the water line
running to the radiator.
Jim Crowder
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of earnestj0
> Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 9:55 AM
> To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kitfox-List: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat
>
> <earnestj@frontiernet.net>
>
> Does anyone know where the thermostat is placed on an NSI EA81 turbo.
> When I put this engine back together, I found no place where the
> thermostat goes. I know where it is placed on a regular Subaru car
> engine, but there is no place on the intake manifold for the NSI where
> it would normally be placed. Does the engine actually have a place for
> it?
> Any information would be helpful. Thanks
> Ted
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223695#223695
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat |
I believe that the thermostat housing went with the original OEM manifold.
The one used on the NSI is a custom unit.
Some have fabricated their own housings. Others have placed them on inside
one of one of the coolant lines.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
- Joseph Joubert
----- Original Message -----
From: "earnestj0" <earnestj@frontiernet.net>
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 11:55 AM
Subject: Kitfox-List: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat
>
> Does anyone know where the thermostat is placed on an NSI EA81 turbo.
> When I put this engine back together, I found no place where the
> thermostat goes. I know where it is placed on a regular Subaru car
> engine, but there is no place on the intake manifold for the NSI where it
> would normally be placed. Does the engine actually have a place for it?
> Any information would be helpful. Thanks
> Ted
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223695#223695
>
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | EA 81 Turbo Thermostat |
There have been several ways to do it including a BMW thermostat
housing, and stuffing it in one of the coolant hoses. What I found that
worked well for me was a simple two piece aluminum inline housing. I
place a "fale safe" thermostat between the half's. A couple of small
holes drilled in the thermostat to allow sufficient flow so the
thermostat sees the temp change. There may be an old pic on sport
flight. If not let me know and I will e-mail it to you. Worked like a
champ. I later went to a waterless coolant with even better results. I
know some will take issue with the idea, but I used it and it works.
Made by Evans.
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of earnestj0
Sent: 2009-01-09 08:55
Subject: Kitfox-List: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat
--> <earnestj@frontiernet.net>
Does anyone know where the thermostat is placed on an NSI EA81 turbo.
When I put this engine back together, I found no place where the
thermostat goes. I know where it is placed on a regular Subaru car
engine, but there is no place on the intake manifold for the NSI where
it would normally be placed. Does the engine actually have a place for
it? Any information would be helpful. Thanks Ted
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223695#223695
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a Kitfox |
matronics(at)bob.brennan. wrote:
> Sorry Jeff - large momentary spikes cause metal fatigue, not sustained
> loads. Metal airframes have a TBF (Time Between Failures) based on flexing
> due to spikes, not sustained loads. All metals can only flex a certain
> number of times before breaking. And yes, I are a engineer... ;-)
>
> Bob Brennan - N717GB
> ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
> Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
> Wrightsville Pa
>
> --
well the bold part certainly explains alot lol.
On the rest, if momentary loads mean nothing then why do wings fold up in severe
turbulence or sudden high G maneuvers?
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223733#223733
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a Kitfox |
> Sorry Jeff - large momentary spikes cause metal fatigue, not sustained
> loads. Metal airframes have a TBF (Time Between Failures) based on flexing
> due to spikes, not sustained loads. All metals can only flex a certain
> number of times before breaking. And yes, I are a engineer... Wink
>
Uh-huh or hogwash? which reply, and to what subject?
I don't agree. Find me the MTBF number of a Kitfox airframe, and I'll
be happy to bow every time you walk by :) In fact if you can find ANY real
engineering numbers from Skystar not only will I bow, but I'll do it
in amazement.
Cheerfully,
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223737#223737
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a Kitfox |
The Kitfox airframe, which is fabric covered metal tube, does not have a
posted MTBF that I know of, probably because the airframe is designed not to
flex under load. Sorry, I should have been more clear in stating that
aircraft whose frames are made of metal (rather than "metal airframes" have
an MTBF of parts according to the stress they are subjected to. To be even
more clear - I meant airframes of almost all airline aircraft and most
standard type GA aircraft such as Piper and Cessna, which rely on stressed
metal monocoque skins to form the "airframe". And all such MTBF numbers are
based on the metal flexing under "momentary spikes", not constant loads.
My reply is to this subject:
"This is completely flawed, because these momentary spikes mean nothing."
And this although I think "Rexinator" already replied better than me:
"They completely lacked the engineering brainpower to realize that load is
related to force over time."
The 3 wing attach points on the Kitfox seem to be designed well for the
published maximum plus and minus loads in flight, but the designers seem to
have failed to design for the stresses of the unsupported wings in the
trailering position, or failed to publish limits or recommendations on how
to rig the wings for trailering. I'd be happy to be proved wrong on that
last point and get some real numbers, but in the meantime it seems it is
left to us to hash it out here and hopefully provide some rigging
recommendations that work.
I know I personally have learned a lot from these discussions, but don't
want to discuss "hogwash" really. I'll leave that to farmers.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n85ae
Sent: 09 January 2009 3:25 pm
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox
> Sorry Jeff - large momentary spikes cause metal fatigue, not sustained
> loads. Metal airframes have a TBF (Time Between Failures) based on flexing
> due to spikes, not sustained loads. All metals can only flex a certain
> number of times before breaking. And yes, I are a engineer... Wink
>
Uh-huh or hogwash? which reply, and to what subject?
I don't agree. Find me the MTBF number of a Kitfox airframe, and I'll
be happy to bow every time you walk by :) In fact if you can find ANY real
engineering numbers from Skystar not only will I bow, but I'll do it
in amazement.
Cheerfully,
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223737#223737
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a Kitfox |
> if momentary loads mean nothing then why do wings fold up in severe
turbulence or sudden high G maneuvers?
All aircraft have clearly published plus and minus G forces that the design
can withstand under varying maneuvers, if you exceed the forces - bad things
happen. But as pilots we knew that already and I assume this statement was
directed at the original poster not me, with tongue firmly in cheek?
Possibly even butt-cheek? ;-)
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of akflyer
Sent: 09 January 2009 3:16 pm
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox
matronics(at)bob.brennan. wrote:
> Sorry Jeff - large momentary spikes cause metal fatigue, not sustained
> loads. Metal airframes have a TBF (Time Between Failures) based on flexing
> due to spikes, not sustained loads. All metals can only flex a certain
> number of times before breaking. And yes, I are a engineer... ;-)
>
> Bob Brennan - N717GB
> ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
> Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
> Wrightsville Pa
>
> --
well the bold part certainly explains alot lol.
On the rest, if momentary loads mean nothing then why do wings fold up in
severe turbulence or sudden high G maneuvers?
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223733#223733
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a Kitfox |
It is still force over time that breaks your wings off, and makes the
fillings fall out of your teeth on a bumpy road. It's just a matter of how
much force, and how much time.
30G at .01 second, does not equal 30G at .1 second, and that's
yet again not the same as 30G at 1 second.
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223747#223747
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a Kitfox |
By the way, here's one of the trailers I made. The center rail is
designed to elevate at the front to adjust aircraft attitude on the trailer.
And there is a swing open bar at the back,
Regards,
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223749#223749
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/trailer_695.jpg
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a Kitfox |
Jeff is correct.
It is true that the area under the G vs time curve is significant.
And it is true that several short duration spikes have little
significance to a space frame structure like our planes. When
trailering it is logical that more than several spikes would be
present and definitely cause harm due to the normal fatigue life of
the metal and welds.
Trailering is a high risk activity and should be minimized. Ie short
trips at low speeds.
Anyway don't miss the point of my post which says make sure you have
a soft riding trailer.
Wings off will eliminate the spar/pass thru problems and certainly
minimize the fuge loads. A soft play ball under the rear of the fuge
would be a good addition to any setup so as to keep any vibration
loads from the tail wheel attach and the unsupported fuge.
Soft tires would be a good help.
Paul
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a Kitfox |
Actually something to consider is your tiedowns. If you make your tires
really spongy, etc. Odds are good your planes gonna get damaged by
banging against the tiedowns. It's better to tie it down as tight as possible,
and let the trailer suspension absorb the shock. The plane should be tight
and the trailer suspension soft. That's the best way to do it.
Jeff
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a Kitfox |
Of course the amount of time a force is applied makes a difference - but
only as regards the mass and inertia of the object being acted upon. We're
talking about fairly massive structures here (the wings) and they of course
will not respond to millisecond forces. We're talking about bumps in the
road and gusts of wind as the damaging forces. But don't forget also we are
talking about forces on a pivot point where the forces are acting along a
moment of the length of the wing. I assume you know how to do a
weight&balance using moments?
Now fly an airplane where the critical support structures that hold the
wings on have been weakened by metal fatigue from repeated forces too small
to break the structure, you do know what metal fatigue is? The wings *will*
fall off at a much lower G stress than their rating if not damaged. You
*will* fall out of the sky due to accumulated "momentary spikes" that you
said "mean nothing".
The solution, as I see it, thanks to posters on this list, is to eliminate
the moment multiplier of the force by not allowing the strut connect points
to be pivot points = support the wings.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n85ae
Sent: 09 January 2009 4:16 pm
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox
It is still force over time that breaks your wings off, and makes the
fillings fall out of your teeth on a bumpy road. It's just a matter of how
much force, and how much time.
30G at .01 second, does not equal 30G at .1 second, and that's
yet again not the same as 30G at 1 second.
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223747#223747
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a Kitfox |
matronics(at)bob.brennan. wrote:
>
> > if momentary loads mean nothing then why do wings fold up in severe
> > turbulence or sudden high G maneuvers?
> >
>
>
> All aircraft have clearly published plus and minus G forces that the design
> can withstand under varying maneuvers, if you exceed the forces - bad things
> happen. But as pilots we knew that already and I assume this statement was
> directed at the original poster not me, with tongue firmly in cheek?
> Possibly even butt-cheek? ;-)
>
> Bob Brennan - N717GB
> ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
> Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
> Wrightsville Pa
>
> --
yes Einstein, it was directed at others...
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223762#223762
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a Kitfox |
All of which, in addition to the obvious are darned good reason to
not tow with the wings spread. :)
I was only talking about the comment about the Skystar trailer towing
G-Meter readings. Engineering calculations are boring, by the way, that
sounds too much like my job.
Realistically, the average bumpy landing is more harmfull to your plane
than towing. Not to mention landing and taxiing in a bumpy field. My
honest opinion is that the most likely damage you'll sustain from towing,
is if the wings get banging around. I have taxied mine across bumpy
grassy fields, and those worry me a lot more. if you are on main roads
you'll likely not have any sort of bumpy enough ride to damage your plane on a
trailer. UNLESS it is loose, or the wings aren't supported
or somebody runs into you. Or it gets hit by a rock.
Half the toys I've had I've towed, from dirt bikes, to cars, and planes,
boats and my camper, and the only damage has been from stuff getting hit by road
debris.
I worried a lot about the effects of towing mine, until I actually did it.
The experience of hauling it behind my truck, changed everything I
really worry about. I only worry about two things now - Some jerk hitting
it, or my tiedowns coming loose.
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223763#223763
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a Kitfox |
Man, and I thought we lawyers liked to argue! I had no idea engineers were
so much like lawyers . . . but with math!! How's this:
-
Lots of trailering = 1 reportedly damaged airplane. Can we move on now?
-
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch
-
do not archive
--- On Fri, 1/9/09, Bob Brennan <matronics@bob.brennan.name> wrote:
From: Bob Brennan <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox
<matronics@bob.brennan.name>
The Kitfox airframe, which is fabric covered metal tube, does not have a
posted MTBF that I know of, probably because the airframe is designed not t
o
flex under load. Sorry, I should have been more clear in stating that
aircraft whose frames are made of metal (rather than "metal
airframes" have
an MTBF of parts according to the stress they are subjected to. To be even
more clear - I meant airframes of almost all airline aircraft and most
standard type GA aircraft such as Piper and Cessna, which rely on stressed
metal monocoque skins to form the "airframe". And all such MTBF
numbers are
based on the metal flexing under "momentary spikes", not constant
loads.
My reply is to this subject:
"This is completely flawed, because these momentary spikes mean
nothing."
And this although I think "Rexinator" already replied better than me:
"They completely lacked the engineering brainpower to realize that load is
related to force over time."
The 3 wing attach points on the Kitfox seem to be designed well for the
published maximum plus and minus loads in flight, but the designers seem to
have failed to design for the stresses of the unsupported wings in the
trailering position, or failed to publish limits or recommendations on how
to rig the wings for trailering. I'd be happy to be proved wrong on that
last point and get some real numbers, but in the meantime it seems it is
left to us to hash it out here and hopefully provide some rigging
recommendations that work.
I know I personally have learned a lot from these discussions, but don't
want to discuss "hogwash" really. I'll leave that to farmers.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n85ae
Sent: 09 January 2009 3:25 pm
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox
> Sorry Jeff - large momentary spikes cause metal fatigue, not sustained
> loads. Metal airframes have a TBF (Time Between Failures) based on flexin
g
> due to spikes, not sustained loads. All metals can only flex a certain
> number of times before breaking. And yes, I are a engineer... Wink
>
Uh-huh or hogwash? which reply, and to what subject?
I don't agree. Find me the MTBF number of a Kitfox airframe, and I'll
be happy to bow every time you walk by :) In fact if you can find ANY real
engineering numbers from Skystar not only will I bow, but I'll do it
in amazement.
Cheerfully,
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223737#223737
=0A=0A=0A
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a Kitfox |
just hoping for one of those awards someday from the pre-eminent "hander
outer of humorless darwin awards"... albeit without actually removing my
genes from the gene pool. Too late anyway - already got 5 grandchildren :-)
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of akflyer
Sent: 09 January 2009 5:33 pm
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox
matronics(at)bob.brennan. wrote:
>
> > if momentary loads mean nothing then why do wings fold up in severe
> > turbulence or sudden high G maneuvers?
> >
>
>
> All aircraft have clearly published plus and minus G forces that the
design
> can withstand under varying maneuvers, if you exceed the forces - bad
things
> happen. But as pilots we knew that already and I assume this statement was
> directed at the original poster not me, with tongue firmly in cheek?
> Possibly even butt-cheek? ;-)
>
> Bob Brennan - N717GB
> ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
> 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
> Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
> Wrightsville Pa
>
> --
yes Einstein, it was directed at others...
--------
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1260
As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over.
hander outer of humorless darwin awards
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223762#223762
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a Kitfox |
> I don't have a trailer so for me this is all really theoritical, but Denney
> built trailers that towed tail first with the tailwheel elevated, Skystar
> did the same.
A good reason for this is axle location and tongue weight, when you
design a trailer, you need to locate the axle, and this affects the tongue
weight. To keep the tongue weight reasonable you end up with the
axle location of the trailer pretty close to the planes cg. Considering
you need to be able to turn as well when towing you pretty much end
up sketching and calculating to the point where you have a backwards
towing rig. Which is exactly what I did. Somewhere I have an excel
spreadsheet with all the calculations I did for the trailer in the
previous picture.
Jeff
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223770#223770
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a Kitfox |
All good points Jeff, except for one. You *knew* I'd find at least one
didn't you?<g>
With the wings out all the forces along the wings are perpendicular to the
fuselage and concentrated on 3 connect points, which is well documented and
presumably designed for and tested to the stated maximum loads.
But it seems that with the wings folded and only supported by 2 of the
attach points, now with the force-moments *parallel* to the center line of
the fuselage - stuff can break. And worse yet it can be damaged via metal
fatigue rather than wings snapping off during transit. These are things I
try to do my best to understand, and avoid.
bob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n85ae
Sent: 09 January 2009 5:37 pm
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox
All of which, in addition to the obvious are darned good reason to
not tow with the wings spread. :)
I was only talking about the comment about the Skystar trailer towing
G-Meter readings. Engineering calculations are boring, by the way, that
sounds too much like my job.
Realistically, the average bumpy landing is more harmfull to your plane
than towing. Not to mention landing and taxiing in a bumpy field. My
honest opinion is that the most likely damage you'll sustain from towing,
is if the wings get banging around. I have taxied mine across bumpy
grassy fields, and those worry me a lot more. if you are on main roads
you'll likely not have any sort of bumpy enough ride to damage your plane on
a trailer. UNLESS it is loose, or the wings aren't supported
or somebody runs into you. Or it gets hit by a rock.
Half the toys I've had I've towed, from dirt bikes, to cars, and planes,
boats and my camper, and the only damage has been from stuff getting hit by
road debris.
I worried a lot about the effects of towing mine, until I actually did it.
The experience of hauling it behind my truck, changed everything I
really worry about. I only worry about two things now - Some jerk hitting
it, or my tiedowns coming loose.
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223763#223763
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a Kitfox |
2 reported damaged airplanes Marco, so far. 1+1=2 with math<g>
I don't want to be number 3
tedious bob
do not archive
_____
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes
Sent: 09 January 2009 5:47 pm
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox
Man, and I thought we lawyers liked to argue! I had no idea engineers were
so much like lawyers . . . but with math!! How's this:
Lots of trailering = 1 reportedly damaged airplane. Can we move on now?
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch
do not archive
--- On Fri, 1/9/09, Bob Brennan <matronics@bob.brennan.name> wrote:
From: Bob Brennan <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox
<matronics@bob.brennan.name>
The Kitfox airframe, which is fabric covered metal tube, does not have a
posted MTBF that I know of, probably because the airframe is designed not to
flex under load. Sorry, I should have been more clear in stating that
aircraft whose frames are made of metal (rather than "metal
airframes" have
an MTBF of parts according to the stress they are subjected to. To be even
more clear - I meant airframes of almost all airline aircraft and most
standard type GA aircraft such as Piper and Cessna, which rely on stressed
metal monocoque skins to form the "airframe". And all such MTBF
numbers are
based on the metal flexing under "momentary spikes", not constant
loads.
My reply is to this subject:
"This is completely flawed, because these momentary spikes mean
nothing."
And this although I think "Rexinator" already replied better than me:
"They completely lacked the engineering brainpower to realize that load is
related to force over time."
The 3 wing attach points on the Kitfox seem to be designed well for the
published maximum plus and minus loads in flight, but the designers seem to
have failed to design for the stresses of the unsupported wings in the
trailering position, or failed to publish limits or recommendations on how
to rig the wings for trailering. I'd be happy to be proved wrong on that
last point and get some real numbers, but in the meantime it seems it is
left to us to hash it out here and hopefully provide some rigging
recommendations that work.
I know I personally have learned a lot from these discussions, but don't
want to discuss "hogwash" really. I'll leave that to farmers.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n85ae
Sent: 09 January 2009 3:25 pm
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox
> Sorry Jeff - large momentary spikes cause metal fatigue, not sustained
> loads. Metal airframes have a TBF (Time Between Failures) based on flexing
> due to spikes, not sustained loads. All metals can only flex a certain
> number of times before breaking. And yes, I are a engineer... Wink
>
Uh-huh or hogwash? which reply, and to what subject?
I don't agree. Find me the MTBF number of a Kitfox airframe, and I'll
be happy to bow every time you walk by :) In fact if you can find ANY real
engineering numbers from Skystar not only will I bow, but I'll do it
in amazement.
Cheerfully,
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223737#223737
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Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a Kitfox |
ok, ok, ok. I Have the solution.
A really BIG box, and styrofoam peanuts!
Those packaging engineers aren't dummies, they invented that stuff
for a good reason.
Have a nice weekend.
Regards,
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223774#223774
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a Kitfox |
So --it seems that we need a structural engineer to design a 3 rd
attachment point/ brace to be used for transport , locating it to the
outboard end of the wing, and attaching somewhere near the rear of the
airframe, the wing forming a triangle / or a truss, better spreading
the load to the airframe and eliminating the "lever action" the wing
imparts to its two attach points when folded.
I can understand the concerns brought up here. But believe that
Sky star designed an airplane ---not a trailer, and I do believe that
the loads imparted to the airframe over a period of time will damage the
basic airframe attach points. Chuck holes, speed bumps, gravel roads
and freeways, trailer spring rates, all will bring different levels of
abuse, So I guess each of us in our own way will have to solve their
transport problem.
Personally, I tow on a trailer , tail propped up, wings close to
level with the aircraft facing forward, and the wing butts covered with
a wind chock, removing it when unfolding the wings.
The box full of Styrofoam peanuts sounds fun !!! you may need a
lot of help tho, cleaning runways when unpacking. :~}
have a good weekend
GG
N4276M
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Brennan
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 4:00 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox
2 reported damaged airplanes Marco, so far. 1+1=2 with math<g>
I don't want to be number 3
tedious bob
do not archive
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco
Menezes
Sent: 09 January 2009 5:47 pm
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox
Man, and I thought we lawyers liked to argue! I had no idea
engineers were so much like lawyers . . . but with math!! How's this:
Lots of trailering = 1 reportedly damaged airplane. Can we
move on now?
Marco Menezes N99KX
Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch
do not archive
--- On Fri, 1/9/09, Bob Brennan <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
wrote:
From: Bob Brennan <matronics@bob.brennan.name>
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox
To: kitfox-list@matronics.com
Date: Friday, January 9, 2009, 3:52 PM
<matronics@bob.brennan.name>
The Kitfox airframe, which is fabric covered metal tube, does not have a
posted MTBF that I know of, probably because the airframe is designed
not to
flex under load. Sorry, I should have been more clear in stating that
aircraft whose frames are made of metal (rather than "metal
airframes" have
an MTBF of parts according to the stress they are subjected to. To be
even
more clear - I meant airframes of almost all airline aircraft and most
standard type GA aircraft such as Piper and Cessna, which rely on
stressed
metal monocoque skins to form the "airframe". And all such MTBF
numbers are
based on the metal flexing under "momentary spikes", not constant
loads.
My reply is to this subject:
"This is completely flawed, because these momentary spikes mean
nothing."
And this although I think "Rexinator" already replied better than me:
"They completely lacked the engineering brainpower to realize that load
is
related to force over time."
The 3 wing attach points on the Kitfox seem to be designed well for the
published maximum plus and minus loads in flight, but the designers seem
to
have failed to design for the stresses of the unsupported wings in the
trailering position, or failed to publish limits or recommendations on
how
to rig the wings for trailering. I'd be happy to be proved wrong on that
last point and get some real numbers, but in the meantime it seems it is
left to us to hash it out here and hopefully provide some rigging
recommendations that work.
I know I personally have learned a lot from these discussions, but don't
want to discuss "hogwash" really. I'll leave that to farmers.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n85ae
Sent: 09 January 2009 3:25 pm
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox
> Sorry Jeff - large momentary spikes cause metal fatigue, not sustained
> loads. Metal airframes have a TBF (Time Between Failures) based on
flexing
> due to spikes, not sustained loads. All metals can only flex a certain
> number of times before breaking. And yes, I are a engineer... Wink
>
Uh-huh or hogwash? which reply, and to what subject?
I don't agree. Find me the MTBF number of a Kitfox airframe, and I'll
be happy to bow every time you walk by :) In fact if you can find ANY
real
engineering numbers from Skystar not only will I bow, but I'll do it
in amazement.
Cheerfully,
Jeff
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223737#223737
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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om/contribution
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Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Trailering a Kitfox |
Nice trailer, Jeff. Very nice. Ever thought about making plans for it?
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
- Joseph Joubert
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "n85ae" <n85ae@yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 4:37 PM
Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox
>
> By the way, here's one of the trailers I made. The center rail is
> designed to elevate at the front to adjust aircraft attitude on the
> trailer.
> And there is a swing open bar at the back,
>
> Regards,
> Jeff
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223749#223749
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/trailer_695.jpg
>
>
>
Message 37
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| Subject: | Engine Ground strap |
Kitfoxers, I have the battery on the back of the firewall on my 582. Is
there anything wrong with attaching the engine grounding strap to the
engine mount thur bolt on the front and the battery ground wire to that
bolt on the inside of the firewall?
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
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