---------------------------------------------------------- Kitfox-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 01/09/09: 37 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:19 AM - Re: First Flight - finally (Paul Morel) 2. 06:34 AM - Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox (Chuck Popenoe) 3. 06:55 AM - Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox (Chuck Popenoe) 4. 07:09 AM - Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox (Bob Brennan) 5. 07:21 AM - Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox (Bob Brennan) 6. 07:28 AM - Re: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox (Marco Menezes) 7. 07:37 AM - kitfox trailer (Ed Gray) 8. 08:03 AM - Re: kitfox trailer (Vic Baker) 9. 08:11 AM - Rotax 912ul for sale (Les Evarts) 10. 08:15 AM - Re: kitfox trailer (Marco Menezes) 11. 08:56 AM - EA 81 Turbo Thermostat (earnestj0) 12. 09:01 AM - Re: Trailering a Kitfox (n85ae) 13. 09:26 AM - Re: Re: Trailering a Kitfox (Bob Brennan) 14. 09:53 AM - Re: Re: Trailering a Kitfox (Rexinator) 15. 09:56 AM - Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat (Jim Crowder) 16. 10:13 AM - Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat (fox5flyer) 17. 10:28 AM - Re: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat (Rick) 18. 12:17 PM - Re: Trailering a Kitfox (akflyer) 19. 12:25 PM - Re: Trailering a Kitfox (n85ae) 20. 12:53 PM - Re: Re: Trailering a Kitfox (Bob Brennan) 21. 12:59 PM - Re: Re: Trailering a Kitfox (Bob Brennan) 22. 01:16 PM - Re: Trailering a Kitfox (n85ae) 23. 01:38 PM - Re: Trailering a Kitfox (n85ae) 24. 01:43 PM - Re: Trailering a Kitfox (paul wilson) 25. 02:01 PM - Re: Trailering a Kitfox (n85ae) 26. 02:18 PM - Re: Re: Trailering a Kitfox (Bob Brennan) 27. 02:33 PM - Re: Trailering a Kitfox (akflyer) 28. 02:37 PM - Re: Trailering a Kitfox (n85ae) 29. 02:48 PM - Re: Re: Trailering a Kitfox (Marco Menezes) 30. 02:49 PM - Re: Re: Trailering a Kitfox (Bob Brennan) 31. 02:53 PM - Re: Trailering a Kitfox (n85ae) 32. 02:59 PM - Re: Re: Trailering a Kitfox (Bob Brennan) 33. 03:02 PM - Re: Re: Trailering a Kitfox (Bob Brennan) 34. 03:08 PM - Re: Trailering a Kitfox (n85ae) 35. 04:09 PM - Re: Re: Trailering a Kitfox (Gary Glasgow) 36. 04:50 PM - Re: Re: Trailering a Kitfox (fox5flyer) 37. 10:02 PM - Engine Ground strap (Pat Reilly) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:19:19 AM PST US From: "Paul Morel" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: First Flight - finally Rick I used to work in DAB for DL 80-96 then to Flight Control to dispatch. Also lived in Port Orange and NSB off Tomoka Farms Rd. We need to hook up sometime. Getting close to my "First Flight" too. Maybe in a couple of weeks. Ran into a snag with my interior seats and glareshield but with the help of the kitfox enthusiasts and supporters, I think I'm going to do fine. Paul 912 Speedster Locust Grove, GA ----- Original Message ----- From: Weiss Richard To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 12:15 AM Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: First Flight - finally Paul, Thanks. If your airliner had a widget in the logo, you win the prize. Glad you noticed. It took a few weeks to do. Rick Weiss N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS SkyStar S/N 1 Port Orange, FL On Jan 8, 2009, at 3:46 PM, Paul Morel wrote: Rick Nice job! I really like the paint scheme. Reminds me of an airline I used to work for ;-) Paul Morel 912 Speedster = ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:34:20 AM PST US From: "Chuck Popenoe" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox Bob - I'm on both Kitfox and Avid lists, lots of good stuff! The Avid list is on Yahoo groups. Try the below URL to get on the Yahoo groups Avid site. You will have to join in order to see the photos or post messages, but why not? My photos are under "Pops' Avid A". http://groups.yahoo.com/group/avid_flyer/?v=1&t=search&ch=web&pub= groups&sec=group&slk=1 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:55:05 AM PST US From: "Chuck Popenoe" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox I would bet anything that the cause of his wrecking the hinge tubes on the AK roads is the same as what caused my fatigue problem, Without a fixed outer wing support, while going over rouigh roads, the wings are fixed only at the rear spar hinge tube and at the lower lift strut hinge points. Inertial loads cause the wings to pivot around the lower lift strut hinge and apply alternating loads to the upper hinge tube, which will cause it to fatigue eventually. The leading edge brace strut may be a good idea, but will do nothing to prevent this from happening. An additional strut brace from the tow-bar cross tube to the folding strut attach tab will, however, take the inertial loads and keep 'em off of the hinge tube. I use a long 3/8" bolt with a wingnut and safety pin to attach the struts to the cross tube. Since making this mod, I have trailered many thousands of miles successfully. Pops ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:09:56 AM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox Thanks Chuck, I've joined the Avid list and enjoyed your pictures. I notice your "plug-in tube for ground handling" = very clever. I have a tailwheel dolly which works well but am forever forgetting to remove it before folding the wings. With the wings folded the tail is much too heavy to lift it off. But it has a very long handle (not sure if it's a factory accessory) and can be swung a full 180+ degrees which makes ground handling a cinch. bob _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Popenoe Sent: 09 January 2009 9:32 am Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox Bob - I'm on both Kitfox and Avid lists, lots of good stuff! The Avid list is on Yahoo groups. Try the below URL to get on the Yahoo groups Avid site. You will have to join in order to see the photos or post messages, but why not? My photos are under "Pops' Avid A". http://groups.yahoo.com/group/avid_flyer/?v=1 &t=search&ch=web&pub=groups&sec=group&slk=1 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:21:12 AM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox That is *exactly* the modification I was going to suggest but you beat me to it! Whether it is wind-induced oscillations or road-induced doesn't really matter, those long heavy wings need good vertical support near the tips to eliminate the fatiguing forces of trailering. I think the front spar support is essential too for long tows, but even for short distances those wing tips need support. I pressure-clamp the wings to the vertical fin and I doubt they move since I always look for signs of rubbing, but I think your solution is much better. Is it the "Elevator Restraints and transport struts" photo on the Avid list? I see the factory-supplied braces to the tail and a strut down to the transport tube as you described, but it looks a bit thin? I am thinking that supports from the deck into the transport tube (to stop tail spring bounce and take the weight off) and then up to the wings would stop any of the damage we have heard of so far. BTW - must suck to live within the ADIZ, especially now that it is permanent. Bob Brennan - N717GB ELSA Repairman, inspection rated 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Popenoe Sent: 09 January 2009 9:52 am Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox I would bet anything that the cause of his wrecking the hinge tubes on the AK roads is the same as what caused my fatigue problem, Without a fixed outer wing support, while going over rouigh roads, the wings are fixed only at the rear spar hinge tube and at the lower lift strut hinge points. Inertial loads cause the wings to pivot around the lower lift strut hinge and apply alternating loads to the upper hinge tube, which will cause it to fatigue eventually. The leading edge brace strut may be a good idea, but will do nothing to prevent this from happening. An additional strut brace from the tow-bar cross tube to the folding strut attach tab will, however, take the inertial loads and keep 'em off of the hinge tube. I use a long 3/8" bolt with a wingnut and safety pin to attach the struts to the cross tube. Since making this mod, I have trailered many thousands of miles successfully. Pops ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:28:45 AM PST US From: Marco Menezes Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox Can you post-some pictures Pops? Thanks. - Marco Menezes N99KX Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch - do not archive --- On Fri, 1/9/09, Chuck Popenoe wrote: From: Chuck Popenoe Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Trailering a KitfoxTrailering a Kitfox I would bet anything that the cause of his wrecking the hinge tubes on the AK roads is the same as what caused my fatigue problem,- Without a fixed outer wing support, while going over rouigh roads, the wings are fixed only at the rear spar hinge tube and at the lower lift strut hinge points.- I nertial loads cause the wings to pivot around the lower lift strut hinge an d apply alternating loads to the upper hinge tube, which will cause it to f atigue eventually.- The leading edge brace strut-may be a good idea, bu t-will do nothing to prevent this from happening.- An additional strut brace from the tow-bar cross tube to the folding strut attach tab will, how ever,-take the inertial loads and keep 'em off of the hinge tube.- I us e a long 3/8" bolt with a wingnut and safety pin to attach the struts to th e cross tube.- - Since making this mod, I have trailered many thousands of miles successfull y. - Pops =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:37:50 AM PST US From: "Ed Gray" Subject: Kitfox-List: kitfox trailer I picked up a 19 foot boat single axle boat trailer for less than 300 with decent wheels and bearings. I plan on cutting off the aftermost "shallow vee" and replacing it with a straight "C" beam dropped about 8 inches so the maingear area will be below the trailer deck and in less wind blast. The trailer is designed for 1500 -2000 lb load, so I will probably add some iron weights to get better spring performance and a smoother ride. Underloaded trailers produce a very bouncy ride. I am thinking about some sort of vee shaped nose with notches for the hor. Stab, also to reduce turbulence and road rash. Any suggestions appreciated Seems to me the tail should be fastened with some foam or spring action on the attach point to keep the bouncing isolated from the fuse. A light weight auto coil-over shock from a small car occurs to me. Does fuel carried in the wing tanks tend to slosh out if the cap vents are plugged? How about replacing the caps with non-vented ones for towing. My final thought is conestoga style hoops over the trailer so a 20 by 20 tarp could be used as a cover for towing and storage. One inch electrical conduit should make good hoops with sockets welded to the trailer frame. My 1990 KF II in nearing completion, now wiring and plumbing the engine and building a wire loom to connect the GRC nav unit to the txpd Ed Gray Dallas K 2, 582. gsc 3 blade. PS Anyone know an EAA designee inspector in the Dallas area? ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:03:00 AM PST US From: "Vic Baker" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: kitfox trailer Ed, You should remove the fuel from your tanks before transport. I use a piece of 3/8 fuel line with a bulb to start the flow. I also use metal "safety" 5 gal cans for storage. Only takes 10 to 15 minutes to drain all but 2 or 3 gallons from each of the wing tanks. Of course take all precautious during the fueling/defueling process to avoid static discharge. Vic Vic Baker S7 912S Warp Phase 1 flight testing Carson City, Nv ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed Gray To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 7:36 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: kitfox trailer I picked up a 19 foot boat single axle boat trailer for less than 300 with decent wheels and bearings. I plan on cutting off the aftermost "shallow vee" and replacing it with a straight "C" beam dropped about 8 inches so the maingear area will be below the trailer deck and in less wind blast. The trailer is designed for 1500 -2000 lb load, so I will probably add some iron weights to get better spring performance and a smoother ride. Underloaded trailers produce a very bouncy ride. I am thinking about some sort of vee shaped nose with notches for the hor. Stab, also to reduce turbulence and road rash. Any suggestions appreciated Seems to me the tail should be fastened with some foam or spring action on the attach point to keep the bouncing isolated from the fuse. A light weight auto coil-over shock from a small car occurs to me. Does fuel carried in the wing tanks tend to slosh out if the cap vents are plugged? How about replacing the caps with non-vented ones for towing. My final thought is conestoga style hoops over the trailer so a 20 by 20 tarp could be used as a cover for towing and storage. One inch electrical conduit should make good hoops with sockets welded to the trailer frame. My 1990 KF II in nearing completion, now wiring and plumbing the engine and building a wire loom to connect the GRC nav unit to the txpd Ed Gray Dallas K 2, 582. gsc 3 blade. PS Anyone know an EAA designee inspector in the Dallas area? ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:11:25 AM PST US From: "Les Evarts" Subject: Kitfox-List: Rotax 912ul for sale *I am upgrading to the 912 ULS so I have a Rotax 912UL (80hp) with 780 hrs on it that's looking for a new airframe. I also have a three blade GSC ground adjustable prop. All SB performed to bring this engine up to a TBO of 1500 hours. I am having the engine inspected to verify SB work and general serviceability of this engine. Please contact me off list with interested inquiries.* * * *la.evarts@gmail.com* *406-270-3385* * * *do not archive* -- Les Evarts Kitfox Model IV-1200 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:15:17 AM PST US From: Marco Menezes Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: kitfox trailer Many good ideas here Ed. I particularly like the shock absorber for the tai lwheel. I use a brace-between fuse and trailer to unload the t-spring dur ing transport but a shock could both unload the spring and protect the airplane from potholes. Let us know what - you come up with. - I would recommend defueling the plane for transport. The weight of fuel add s to the already substantial stress on the tailwheel when wings are folded. A fuel transfer tank can be added to the trailer to store fuel, add weight , soften the ride.-Defueling adds a few minutes at the beginning and end of each flight but, personally, I feel better about storing the airplane "d ry" between flights. - Marco Menezes N99KX Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch - --- On Fri, 1/9/09, Ed Gray wrote: - From: Ed Gray Subject: Kitfox-List: kitfox trailer I picked up a 19 foot boat single axle boat trailer for less than 300 with decent wheels and bearings.- I plan on cutting off the aftermost =93shall ow vee=94 and replacing it with a straight =93C=94 beam dropped about 8 inc hes so the maingear area will be below the trailer deck and in less wind bl ast.- The trailer is designed for 1500 -2000 lb load, so I will probably add some iron weights to get better spring performance and a smoother ride. - Underloaded trailers produce a very bouncy ride.- I am thinking about some sort of vee shaped nose with notches for the hor. Stab, also to reduc e turbulence and road rash.- Any suggestions appreciated----- -------- - Seems to me the tail should be fastened with some foam or spring action on the attach point to keep the bouncing isolated from the fuse.- A light we ight auto coil-over shock from a small car occurs to me.- Does fuel carri ed in the wing tanks tend to slosh out if the cap vents are plugged?- How about replacing the caps with non-vented ones for towing.- My final thou ght is conestoga style hoops over the trailer so a 20 by 20 tarp could be u sed as a cover for towing and storage.- One inch electrical conduit shoul d make good hoops with sockets welded to the trailer frame.- - My 1990 KF II in nearing completion, now wiring and plumbing the engine and building a wire loom to connect the GRC nav unit to the txpd - Ed Gray Dallas K 2, 582. gsc 3 blade.- PS Anyone know an EAA designee ins pector in the Dallas area? =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:06 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat From: "earnestj0" Does anyone know where the thermostat is placed on an NSI EA81 turbo. When I put this engine back together, I found no place where the thermostat goes. I know where it is placed on a regular Subaru car engine, but there is no place on the intake manifold for the NSI where it would normally be placed. Does the engine actually have a place for it? Any information would be helpful. Thanks Ted Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223695#223695 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:01:26 AM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox From: "n85ae" > Way back when -- Skystar was queried at either Osh or at the flyinn? about trailering an possible damage to the plane. At that time Skystar was using an enclosed locally built trailer. They had instrumented the trailer & plane and the result were acceleration spikes that exceeded the calculated plane design limits. The conclusion was that any trailer must be designed with a very soft ride and driven at a very slow speed. They left it up to the builder to go from there. Paul This is completely flawed, because these momentary spikes mean nothing. They completely lacked the engineering brainpower to realize that load is related to force over time. A 10-20G spike because you hit a speed bump on the road, is not like a 10-20 G sustained load. This is just somebody looking at the G-meter after towing their plane and seeing it pegged, and thinking WOW, it pulled 30G's on the trailer! If this were such a problem, I'd be more worried about breaking the trailer than the plane, honestly. You can trailer a kitfox on any kind of trailer, and if you built the plane well, and properly brace the wings you'll have absolutely no problems. Regards, Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223696#223696 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:26:30 AM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox Sorry Jeff - large momentary spikes cause metal fatigue, not sustained loads. Metal airframes have a TBF (Time Between Failures) based on flexing due to spikes, not sustained loads. All metals can only flex a certain number of times before breaking. And yes, I are a engineer... ;-) Bob Brennan - N717GB ELSA Repairman, inspection rated 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n85ae Sent: 09 January 2009 12:01 pm Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox > Way back when -- Skystar was queried at either Osh or at the flyinn? about trailering an possible damage to the plane. At that time Skystar was using an enclosed locally built trailer. They had instrumented the trailer & plane and the result were acceleration spikes that exceeded the calculated plane design limits. The conclusion was that any trailer must be designed with a very soft ride and driven at a very slow speed. They left it up to the builder to go from there. Paul This is completely flawed, because these momentary spikes mean nothing. They completely lacked the engineering brainpower to realize that load is related to force over time. A 10-20G spike because you hit a speed bump on the road, is not like a 10-20 G sustained load. This is just somebody looking at the G-meter after towing their plane and seeing it pegged, and thinking WOW, it pulled 30G's on the trailer! If this were such a problem, I'd be more worried about breaking the trailer than the plane, honestly. You can trailer a kitfox on any kind of trailer, and if you built the plane well, and properly brace the wings you'll have absolutely no problems. Regards, Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223696#223696 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:53:02 AM PST US From: Rexinator Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox This is an interesting exchange. One post claiming the (ex)manufacturer determined you should be concerned about shock loads while trailering and another states they lacked the engineering acumen to puzzle through such a basic problem. Oh where can the truth be? Rex Hefferan SE Colorado, Model 2, 582-C n85ae wrote: > > >> Way back when -- Skystar was queried at either Osh or at the flyinn? about trailering an possible damage to the plane. At that time Skystar was using an enclosed locally built trailer. They had instrumented the trailer & plane and the result were acceleration spikes that exceeded the calculated plane design limits. The conclusion was that any trailer must be designed with a very soft ride and driven at a very slow speed. They left it up to the builder to go from there. Paul >> > > This is completely flawed, because these momentary spikes mean nothing. > They completely lacked the engineering brainpower to realize that load is > related to force over time. A 10-20G spike because you hit a speed bump > on the road, is not like a 10-20 G sustained load. > > This is just somebody looking at the G-meter after towing their plane > and seeing it pegged, and thinking WOW, it pulled 30G's on the trailer! > > If this were such a problem, I'd be more worried about breaking the > trailer than the plane, honestly. > > You can trailer a kitfox on any kind of trailer, and if you built the plane > well, and properly brace the wings you'll have absolutely no problems. > > Regards, > Jeff > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:56:31 AM PST US From: "Jim Crowder" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat When I had a NSI EA81 engine, we placed the thermostat in the water line running to the radiator. Jim Crowder > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of earnestj0 > Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 9:55 AM > To: kitfox-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kitfox-List: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat > > > > Does anyone know where the thermostat is placed on an NSI EA81 turbo. > When I put this engine back together, I found no place where the > thermostat goes. I know where it is placed on a regular Subaru car > engine, but there is no place on the intake manifold for the NSI where > it would normally be placed. Does the engine actually have a place for > it? > Any information would be helpful. Thanks > Ted > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223695#223695 > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:13:45 AM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat I believe that the thermostat housing went with the original OEM manifold. The one used on the NSI is a custom unit. Some have fabricated their own housings. Others have placed them on inside one of one of the coolant lines. Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert ----- Original Message ----- From: "earnestj0" Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 11:55 AM Subject: Kitfox-List: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat > > Does anyone know where the thermostat is placed on an NSI EA81 turbo. > When I put this engine back together, I found no place where the > thermostat goes. I know where it is placed on a regular Subaru car > engine, but there is no place on the intake manifold for the NSI where it > would normally be placed. Does the engine actually have a place for it? > Any information would be helpful. Thanks > Ted > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223695#223695 > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:28:52 AM PST US From: "Rick" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat There have been several ways to do it including a BMW thermostat housing, and stuffing it in one of the coolant hoses. What I found that worked well for me was a simple two piece aluminum inline housing. I place a "fale safe" thermostat between the half's. A couple of small holes drilled in the thermostat to allow sufficient flow so the thermostat sees the temp change. There may be an old pic on sport flight. If not let me know and I will e-mail it to you. Worked like a champ. I later went to a waterless coolant with even better results. I know some will take issue with the idea, but I used it and it works. Made by Evans. Rick -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of earnestj0 Sent: 2009-01-09 08:55 Subject: Kitfox-List: EA 81 Turbo Thermostat --> Does anyone know where the thermostat is placed on an NSI EA81 turbo. When I put this engine back together, I found no place where the thermostat goes. I know where it is placed on a regular Subaru car engine, but there is no place on the intake manifold for the NSI where it would normally be placed. Does the engine actually have a place for it? Any information would be helpful. Thanks Ted Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223695#223695 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:17:28 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox From: "akflyer" matronics(at)bob.brennan. wrote: > Sorry Jeff - large momentary spikes cause metal fatigue, not sustained > loads. Metal airframes have a TBF (Time Between Failures) based on flexing > due to spikes, not sustained loads. All metals can only flex a certain > number of times before breaking. And yes, I are a engineer... ;-) > > Bob Brennan - N717GB > ELSA Repairman, inspection rated > 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox > Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop > Wrightsville Pa > > -- well the bold part certainly explains alot lol. On the rest, if momentary loads mean nothing then why do wings fold up in severe turbulence or sudden high G maneuvers? -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over. hander outer of humorless darwin awards Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223733#223733 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:25:41 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox From: "n85ae" > Sorry Jeff - large momentary spikes cause metal fatigue, not sustained > loads. Metal airframes have a TBF (Time Between Failures) based on flexing > due to spikes, not sustained loads. All metals can only flex a certain > number of times before breaking. And yes, I are a engineer... Wink > Uh-huh or hogwash? which reply, and to what subject? I don't agree. Find me the MTBF number of a Kitfox airframe, and I'll be happy to bow every time you walk by :) In fact if you can find ANY real engineering numbers from Skystar not only will I bow, but I'll do it in amazement. Cheerfully, Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223737#223737 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:53:54 PM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox The Kitfox airframe, which is fabric covered metal tube, does not have a posted MTBF that I know of, probably because the airframe is designed not to flex under load. Sorry, I should have been more clear in stating that aircraft whose frames are made of metal (rather than "metal airframes" have an MTBF of parts according to the stress they are subjected to. To be even more clear - I meant airframes of almost all airline aircraft and most standard type GA aircraft such as Piper and Cessna, which rely on stressed metal monocoque skins to form the "airframe". And all such MTBF numbers are based on the metal flexing under "momentary spikes", not constant loads. My reply is to this subject: "This is completely flawed, because these momentary spikes mean nothing." And this although I think "Rexinator" already replied better than me: "They completely lacked the engineering brainpower to realize that load is related to force over time." The 3 wing attach points on the Kitfox seem to be designed well for the published maximum plus and minus loads in flight, but the designers seem to have failed to design for the stresses of the unsupported wings in the trailering position, or failed to publish limits or recommendations on how to rig the wings for trailering. I'd be happy to be proved wrong on that last point and get some real numbers, but in the meantime it seems it is left to us to hash it out here and hopefully provide some rigging recommendations that work. I know I personally have learned a lot from these discussions, but don't want to discuss "hogwash" really. I'll leave that to farmers. Bob Brennan - N717GB ELSA Repairman, inspection rated 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n85ae Sent: 09 January 2009 3:25 pm Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox > Sorry Jeff - large momentary spikes cause metal fatigue, not sustained > loads. Metal airframes have a TBF (Time Between Failures) based on flexing > due to spikes, not sustained loads. All metals can only flex a certain > number of times before breaking. And yes, I are a engineer... Wink > Uh-huh or hogwash? which reply, and to what subject? I don't agree. Find me the MTBF number of a Kitfox airframe, and I'll be happy to bow every time you walk by :) In fact if you can find ANY real engineering numbers from Skystar not only will I bow, but I'll do it in amazement. Cheerfully, Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223737#223737 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:59:49 PM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox > if momentary loads mean nothing then why do wings fold up in severe turbulence or sudden high G maneuvers? All aircraft have clearly published plus and minus G forces that the design can withstand under varying maneuvers, if you exceed the forces - bad things happen. But as pilots we knew that already and I assume this statement was directed at the original poster not me, with tongue firmly in cheek? Possibly even butt-cheek? ;-) Bob Brennan - N717GB ELSA Repairman, inspection rated 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of akflyer Sent: 09 January 2009 3:16 pm Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox matronics(at)bob.brennan. wrote: > Sorry Jeff - large momentary spikes cause metal fatigue, not sustained > loads. Metal airframes have a TBF (Time Between Failures) based on flexing > due to spikes, not sustained loads. All metals can only flex a certain > number of times before breaking. And yes, I are a engineer... ;-) > > Bob Brennan - N717GB > ELSA Repairman, inspection rated > 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox > Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop > Wrightsville Pa > > -- well the bold part certainly explains alot lol. On the rest, if momentary loads mean nothing then why do wings fold up in severe turbulence or sudden high G maneuvers? -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over. hander outer of humorless darwin awards Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223733#223733 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 01:16:40 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox From: "n85ae" It is still force over time that breaks your wings off, and makes the fillings fall out of your teeth on a bumpy road. It's just a matter of how much force, and how much time. 30G at .01 second, does not equal 30G at .1 second, and that's yet again not the same as 30G at 1 second. Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223747#223747 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 01:38:14 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox From: "n85ae" By the way, here's one of the trailers I made. The center rail is designed to elevate at the front to adjust aircraft attitude on the trailer. And there is a swing open bar at the back, Regards, Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223749#223749 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/trailer_695.jpg ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:43:23 PM PST US From: paul wilson Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox Jeff is correct. It is true that the area under the G vs time curve is significant. And it is true that several short duration spikes have little significance to a space frame structure like our planes. When trailering it is logical that more than several spikes would be present and definitely cause harm due to the normal fatigue life of the metal and welds. Trailering is a high risk activity and should be minimized. Ie short trips at low speeds. Anyway don't miss the point of my post which says make sure you have a soft riding trailer. Wings off will eliminate the spar/pass thru problems and certainly minimize the fuge loads. A soft play ball under the rear of the fuge would be a good addition to any setup so as to keep any vibration loads from the tail wheel attach and the unsupported fuge. Soft tires would be a good help. Paul ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:01:59 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox From: "n85ae" Actually something to consider is your tiedowns. If you make your tires really spongy, etc. Odds are good your planes gonna get damaged by banging against the tiedowns. It's better to tie it down as tight as possible, and let the trailer suspension absorb the shock. The plane should be tight and the trailer suspension soft. That's the best way to do it. Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223755#223755 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:18:04 PM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox Of course the amount of time a force is applied makes a difference - but only as regards the mass and inertia of the object being acted upon. We're talking about fairly massive structures here (the wings) and they of course will not respond to millisecond forces. We're talking about bumps in the road and gusts of wind as the damaging forces. But don't forget also we are talking about forces on a pivot point where the forces are acting along a moment of the length of the wing. I assume you know how to do a weight&balance using moments? Now fly an airplane where the critical support structures that hold the wings on have been weakened by metal fatigue from repeated forces too small to break the structure, you do know what metal fatigue is? The wings *will* fall off at a much lower G stress than their rating if not damaged. You *will* fall out of the sky due to accumulated "momentary spikes" that you said "mean nothing". The solution, as I see it, thanks to posters on this list, is to eliminate the moment multiplier of the force by not allowing the strut connect points to be pivot points = support the wings. Bob Brennan - N717GB ELSA Repairman, inspection rated 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n85ae Sent: 09 January 2009 4:16 pm Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox It is still force over time that breaks your wings off, and makes the fillings fall out of your teeth on a bumpy road. It's just a matter of how much force, and how much time. 30G at .01 second, does not equal 30G at .1 second, and that's yet again not the same as 30G at 1 second. Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223747#223747 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 02:33:47 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox From: "akflyer" matronics(at)bob.brennan. wrote: > > > if momentary loads mean nothing then why do wings fold up in severe > > turbulence or sudden high G maneuvers? > > > > > All aircraft have clearly published plus and minus G forces that the design > can withstand under varying maneuvers, if you exceed the forces - bad things > happen. But as pilots we knew that already and I assume this statement was > directed at the original poster not me, with tongue firmly in cheek? > Possibly even butt-cheek? ;-) > > Bob Brennan - N717GB > ELSA Repairman, inspection rated > 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox > Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop > Wrightsville Pa > > -- yes Einstein, it was directed at others... -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over. hander outer of humorless darwin awards Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223762#223762 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 02:37:47 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox From: "n85ae" All of which, in addition to the obvious are darned good reason to not tow with the wings spread. :) I was only talking about the comment about the Skystar trailer towing G-Meter readings. Engineering calculations are boring, by the way, that sounds too much like my job. Realistically, the average bumpy landing is more harmfull to your plane than towing. Not to mention landing and taxiing in a bumpy field. My honest opinion is that the most likely damage you'll sustain from towing, is if the wings get banging around. I have taxied mine across bumpy grassy fields, and those worry me a lot more. if you are on main roads you'll likely not have any sort of bumpy enough ride to damage your plane on a trailer. UNLESS it is loose, or the wings aren't supported or somebody runs into you. Or it gets hit by a rock. Half the toys I've had I've towed, from dirt bikes, to cars, and planes, boats and my camper, and the only damage has been from stuff getting hit by road debris. I worried a lot about the effects of towing mine, until I actually did it. The experience of hauling it behind my truck, changed everything I really worry about. I only worry about two things now - Some jerk hitting it, or my tiedowns coming loose. Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223763#223763 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 02:48:09 PM PST US From: Marco Menezes Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox Man, and I thought we lawyers liked to argue! I had no idea engineers were so much like lawyers . . . but with math!! How's this: - Lots of trailering = 1 reportedly damaged airplane. Can we move on now? - Marco Menezes N99KX Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch - do not archive --- On Fri, 1/9/09, Bob Brennan wrote: From: Bob Brennan Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox The Kitfox airframe, which is fabric covered metal tube, does not have a posted MTBF that I know of, probably because the airframe is designed not t o flex under load. Sorry, I should have been more clear in stating that aircraft whose frames are made of metal (rather than "metal airframes" have an MTBF of parts according to the stress they are subjected to. To be even more clear - I meant airframes of almost all airline aircraft and most standard type GA aircraft such as Piper and Cessna, which rely on stressed metal monocoque skins to form the "airframe". And all such MTBF numbers are based on the metal flexing under "momentary spikes", not constant loads. My reply is to this subject: "This is completely flawed, because these momentary spikes mean nothing." And this although I think "Rexinator" already replied better than me: "They completely lacked the engineering brainpower to realize that load is related to force over time." The 3 wing attach points on the Kitfox seem to be designed well for the published maximum plus and minus loads in flight, but the designers seem to have failed to design for the stresses of the unsupported wings in the trailering position, or failed to publish limits or recommendations on how to rig the wings for trailering. I'd be happy to be proved wrong on that last point and get some real numbers, but in the meantime it seems it is left to us to hash it out here and hopefully provide some rigging recommendations that work. I know I personally have learned a lot from these discussions, but don't want to discuss "hogwash" really. I'll leave that to farmers. Bob Brennan - N717GB ELSA Repairman, inspection rated 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n85ae Sent: 09 January 2009 3:25 pm Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox > Sorry Jeff - large momentary spikes cause metal fatigue, not sustained > loads. Metal airframes have a TBF (Time Between Failures) based on flexin g > due to spikes, not sustained loads. All metals can only flex a certain > number of times before breaking. And yes, I are a engineer... Wink > Uh-huh or hogwash? which reply, and to what subject? I don't agree. Find me the MTBF number of a Kitfox airframe, and I'll be happy to bow every time you walk by :) In fact if you can find ANY real engineering numbers from Skystar not only will I bow, but I'll do it in amazement. Cheerfully, Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223737#223737 =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 02:49:54 PM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox just hoping for one of those awards someday from the pre-eminent "hander outer of humorless darwin awards"... albeit without actually removing my genes from the gene pool. Too late anyway - already got 5 grandchildren :-) do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of akflyer Sent: 09 January 2009 5:33 pm Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox matronics(at)bob.brennan. wrote: > > > if momentary loads mean nothing then why do wings fold up in severe > > turbulence or sudden high G maneuvers? > > > > > All aircraft have clearly published plus and minus G forces that the design > can withstand under varying maneuvers, if you exceed the forces - bad things > happen. But as pilots we knew that already and I assume this statement was > directed at the original poster not me, with tongue firmly in cheek? > Possibly even butt-cheek? ;-) > > Bob Brennan - N717GB > ELSA Repairman, inspection rated > 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox > Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop > Wrightsville Pa > > -- yes Einstein, it was directed at others... -------- DO NOT ARCHIVE Leonard Perry Soldotna AK Avid "C" / Mk IV 582 IVO IFA Full Lotus 1260 As done as any plane will ever be.... cause now the tinkeritis takes over. hander outer of humorless darwin awards Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223762#223762 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 02:53:13 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox From: "n85ae" > I don't have a trailer so for me this is all really theoritical, but Denney > built trailers that towed tail first with the tailwheel elevated, Skystar > did the same. A good reason for this is axle location and tongue weight, when you design a trailer, you need to locate the axle, and this affects the tongue weight. To keep the tongue weight reasonable you end up with the axle location of the trailer pretty close to the planes cg. Considering you need to be able to turn as well when towing you pretty much end up sketching and calculating to the point where you have a backwards towing rig. Which is exactly what I did. Somewhere I have an excel spreadsheet with all the calculations I did for the trailer in the previous picture. Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223770#223770 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 02:59:36 PM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox All good points Jeff, except for one. You *knew* I'd find at least one didn't you? With the wings out all the forces along the wings are perpendicular to the fuselage and concentrated on 3 connect points, which is well documented and presumably designed for and tested to the stated maximum loads. But it seems that with the wings folded and only supported by 2 of the attach points, now with the force-moments *parallel* to the center line of the fuselage - stuff can break. And worse yet it can be damaged via metal fatigue rather than wings snapping off during transit. These are things I try to do my best to understand, and avoid. bob -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n85ae Sent: 09 January 2009 5:37 pm Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox All of which, in addition to the obvious are darned good reason to not tow with the wings spread. :) I was only talking about the comment about the Skystar trailer towing G-Meter readings. Engineering calculations are boring, by the way, that sounds too much like my job. Realistically, the average bumpy landing is more harmfull to your plane than towing. Not to mention landing and taxiing in a bumpy field. My honest opinion is that the most likely damage you'll sustain from towing, is if the wings get banging around. I have taxied mine across bumpy grassy fields, and those worry me a lot more. if you are on main roads you'll likely not have any sort of bumpy enough ride to damage your plane on a trailer. UNLESS it is loose, or the wings aren't supported or somebody runs into you. Or it gets hit by a rock. Half the toys I've had I've towed, from dirt bikes, to cars, and planes, boats and my camper, and the only damage has been from stuff getting hit by road debris. I worried a lot about the effects of towing mine, until I actually did it. The experience of hauling it behind my truck, changed everything I really worry about. I only worry about two things now - Some jerk hitting it, or my tiedowns coming loose. Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223763#223763 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 03:02:07 PM PST US From: "Bob Brennan" Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox 2 reported damaged airplanes Marco, so far. 1+1=2 with math I don't want to be number 3 tedious bob do not archive _____ From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes Sent: 09 January 2009 5:47 pm Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox Man, and I thought we lawyers liked to argue! I had no idea engineers were so much like lawyers . . . but with math!! How's this: Lots of trailering = 1 reportedly damaged airplane. Can we move on now? Marco Menezes N99KX Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch do not archive --- On Fri, 1/9/09, Bob Brennan wrote: From: Bob Brennan Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox The Kitfox airframe, which is fabric covered metal tube, does not have a posted MTBF that I know of, probably because the airframe is designed not to flex under load. Sorry, I should have been more clear in stating that aircraft whose frames are made of metal (rather than "metal airframes" have an MTBF of parts according to the stress they are subjected to. To be even more clear - I meant airframes of almost all airline aircraft and most standard type GA aircraft such as Piper and Cessna, which rely on stressed metal monocoque skins to form the "airframe". And all such MTBF numbers are based on the metal flexing under "momentary spikes", not constant loads. My reply is to this subject: "This is completely flawed, because these momentary spikes mean nothing." And this although I think "Rexinator" already replied better than me: "They completely lacked the engineering brainpower to realize that load is related to force over time." The 3 wing attach points on the Kitfox seem to be designed well for the published maximum plus and minus loads in flight, but the designers seem to have failed to design for the stresses of the unsupported wings in the trailering position, or failed to publish limits or recommendations on how to rig the wings for trailering. I'd be happy to be proved wrong on that last point and get some real numbers, but in the meantime it seems it is left to us to hash it out here and hopefully provide some rigging recommendations that work. I know I personally have learned a lot from these discussions, but don't want to discuss "hogwash" really. I'll leave that to farmers. Bob Brennan - N717GB ELSA Repairman, inspection rated 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n85ae Sent: 09 January 2009 3:25 pm Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox > Sorry Jeff - large momentary spikes cause metal fatigue, not sustained > loads. Metal airframes have a TBF (Time Between Failures) based on flexing > due to spikes, not sustained loads. All metals can only flex a certain > number of times before breaking. And yes, I are a engineer... Wink > Uh-huh or hogwash? which reply, and to what subject? I don't agree. Find me the MTBF number of a Kitfox airframe, and I'll be happy to bow every time you walk by :) In fact if you can find ANY real engineering numbers from Skystar not only will I bow, but I'll do it in amazement. Cheerfully, Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223737#223737 D======================== ========= D======================== ========= D======================== ========= D======================== ========= ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 03:08:11 PM PST US Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox From: "n85ae" ok, ok, ok. I Have the solution. A really BIG box, and styrofoam peanuts! Those packaging engineers aren't dummies, they invented that stuff for a good reason. Have a nice weekend. Regards, Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223774#223774 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 04:09:29 PM PST US From: "Gary Glasgow" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox So --it seems that we need a structural engineer to design a 3 rd attachment point/ brace to be used for transport , locating it to the outboard end of the wing, and attaching somewhere near the rear of the airframe, the wing forming a triangle / or a truss, better spreading the load to the airframe and eliminating the "lever action" the wing imparts to its two attach points when folded. I can understand the concerns brought up here. But believe that Sky star designed an airplane ---not a trailer, and I do believe that the loads imparted to the airframe over a period of time will damage the basic airframe attach points. Chuck holes, speed bumps, gravel roads and freeways, trailer spring rates, all will bring different levels of abuse, So I guess each of us in our own way will have to solve their transport problem. Personally, I tow on a trailer , tail propped up, wings close to level with the aircraft facing forward, and the wing butts covered with a wind chock, removing it when unfolding the wings. The box full of Styrofoam peanuts sounds fun !!! you may need a lot of help tho, cleaning runways when unpacking. :~} have a good weekend GG N4276M ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Brennan To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 4:00 PM Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox 2 reported damaged airplanes Marco, so far. 1+1=2 with math I don't want to be number 3 tedious bob do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes Sent: 09 January 2009 5:47 pm To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox Man, and I thought we lawyers liked to argue! I had no idea engineers were so much like lawyers . . . but with math!! How's this: Lots of trailering = 1 reportedly damaged airplane. Can we move on now? Marco Menezes N99KX Model 2 582-90 C-Box 3:1 w/clutch do not archive --- On Fri, 1/9/09, Bob Brennan wrote: From: Bob Brennan Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox To: kitfox-list@matronics.com Date: Friday, January 9, 2009, 3:52 PM The Kitfox airframe, which is fabric covered metal tube, does not have a posted MTBF that I know of, probably because the airframe is designed not to flex under load. Sorry, I should have been more clear in stating that aircraft whose frames are made of metal (rather than "metal airframes" have an MTBF of parts according to the stress they are subjected to. To be even more clear - I meant airframes of almost all airline aircraft and most standard type GA aircraft such as Piper and Cessna, which rely on stressed metal monocoque skins to form the "airframe". And all such MTBF numbers are based on the metal flexing under "momentary spikes", not constant loads. My reply is to this subject: "This is completely flawed, because these momentary spikes mean nothing." And this although I think "Rexinator" already replied better than me: "They completely lacked the engineering brainpower to realize that load is related to force over time." The 3 wing attach points on the Kitfox seem to be designed well for the published maximum plus and minus loads in flight, but the designers seem to have failed to design for the stresses of the unsupported wings in the trailering position, or failed to publish limits or recommendations on how to rig the wings for trailering. I'd be happy to be proved wrong on that last point and get some real numbers, but in the meantime it seems it is left to us to hash it out here and hopefully provide some rigging recommendations that work. I know I personally have learned a lot from these discussions, but don't want to discuss "hogwash" really. I'll leave that to farmers. Bob Brennan - N717GB ELSA Repairman, inspection rated 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop Wrightsville Pa -----Original Message----- From: owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n85ae Sent: 09 January 2009 3:25 pm Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox > Sorry Jeff - large momentary spikes cause metal fatigue, not sustained > loads. Metal airframes have a TBF (Time Between Failures) based on flexing > due to spikes, not sustained loads. All metals can only flex a certain > number of times before breaking. And yes, I are a engineer... Wink > Uh-huh or hogwash? which reply, and to what subject? I don't agree. Find me the MTBF number of a Kitfox airframe, and I'll be happy to bow every time you walk by :) In fact if you can find ANY real engineering numbers from Skystar not only will I bow, but I'll do it in amazement. Cheerfully, Jeff Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223737#223737 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List"'>http://www.ma tronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://www.matronics.c om/contribution 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 04:50:59 PM PST US From: "fox5flyer" Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox Nice trailer, Jeff. Very nice. Ever thought about making plans for it? Deke Morisse Mikado Michigan S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "n85ae" Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 4:37 PM Subject: Kitfox-List: Re: Trailering a Kitfox > > By the way, here's one of the trailers I made. The center rail is > designed to elevate at the front to adjust aircraft attitude on the > trailer. > And there is a swing open bar at the back, > > Regards, > Jeff > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=223749#223749 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/trailer_695.jpg > > > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:16 PM PST US From: "Pat Reilly" Subject: Kitfox-List: Engine Ground strap Kitfoxers, I have the battery on the back of the firewall on my 582. Is there anything wrong with attaching the engine grounding strap to the engine mount thur bolt on the front and the battery ground wire to that bolt on the inside of the firewall? Pat Reilly Mod 3 582 Rebuild Rockford, IL ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kitfox-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kitfox-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kitfox-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kitfox-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.